Re: Rational Recovery/Jack Trimpey

[Guest guest]

Hi Wally

Nice critique of the RR counterpart of AA dogma. If I cant be helped

by a support group to not do something that is 100% in my control, why

should I be helped by AVRT either? I just dont do it, right?

Before you start escribbling Dave T the only thing I want to say to

you is that I failed to mention RR in a recent post simply because I

forgot about it, no other reason. If you were on ADD_MED you would

know that I have I think three times mentioned AVRT and/or RR WITHOUT

EVEN MENTIONING OTHER AA ALTERNIATIVES in my posts. In other words,

AVRT might appear to be *preferred* by me by those who saw only my

posts on *that* list. Before you indulge in your sneering, it might

be a good idea to get your facts straight.

Have the last word if you want but if it's more of your McEnroe

" Waddido, waddidsay? " routine jam it. With regard to the above the

only thing I will read from you is an apology.

> You know, ever since I first encountered the 'autocratic' version of

RR (6

> years ago, when I read 'AVRT: The Final Fix') I have considered it

flawed.

> Decisions (e. g., to quit drinking forever) are either rational or

> arbitrary. If rational, they are subject to reconsideration based on

new

> information, value system changes, personal growth, etc. If

arbitrary, then

> they can be changed just as arbitrarily as they were made to begin

with.

> RR(2) seems to place the decision to abstain 'outside the program,'

giving

> you AVRT -- a method for not drinking which presumes that you have

already

> decided not to drink. But I've never had a problem not drinking when

I

> didn't want to (at least not since I managed to shuck the

'powerlessness'

> brainwashing...)

>

> Maybe I'm just too rational for Rational Recovery :-)

>

> --wally

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: <CarolFrancey@n...>

>

> > Hi,

> > I don't know if anyone hit on this yet but JT took the cognitive

therapy

> > aspects out of AVRT because the Beast uses and Mine did for sure

the

> > cognitive ascpects to justify going back to getting high. So the

> autocratic

> > approcah is black and white, perfectionistic the way a chess game

is or a

> > crossword puzzle and the decision is not contingent on anything

period.

> > Do you see the difference? Putting any idea like " I shouldn't be a

> > perfectionist about quitting. Afterall, no one is perfect. " just

leaves

> the

> > door open wide and happily to have another round of drinks. When

it is

> over

> > it is over no matter what comes your way.

> > Carol

> [snip]

[Guest guest]

Re: Rational Recovery/Jack Trimpey

> Hi Wally

>

> Nice critique of the RR counterpart of AA dogma. If I cant be helped

> by a support group to not do something that is 100% in my control, why

> should I be helped by AVRT either? I just dont do it, right?

Bravo! I think your getting it now.

>

> Before you start escribbling Dave T the only thing I want to say to

> you is that I failed to mention RR in a recent post simply because I

> forgot about it, no other reason. If you were on ADD_MED you would

> know that I have I think three times mentioned AVRT and/or RR WITHOUT

> EVEN MENTIONING OTHER AA ALTERNIATIVES in my posts. In other words,

> AVRT might appear to be *preferred* by me by those who saw only my

> posts on *that* list. Before you indulge in your sneering, it might

> be a good idea to get your facts straight.

>

> Have the last word if you want but if it's more of your McEnroe

> " Waddido, waddidsay? " routine jam it. With regard to the above the

> only thing I will read from you is an apology.

There's a Catch-eh-twenteh-two in this one.

Dave Trippel

>

>

> > You know, ever since I first encountered the 'autocratic' version of

> RR (6

> > years ago, when I read 'AVRT: The Final Fix') I have considered it

> flawed.

> > Decisions (e. g., to quit drinking forever) are either rational or

> > arbitrary. If rational, they are subject to reconsideration based on

> new

> > information, value system changes, personal growth, etc. If

> arbitrary, then

> > they can be changed just as arbitrarily as they were made to begin

> with.

> > RR(2) seems to place the decision to abstain 'outside the program,'

> giving

> > you AVRT -- a method for not drinking which presumes that you have

> already

> > decided not to drink. But I've never had a problem not drinking when

> I

> > didn't want to (at least not since I managed to shuck the

> 'powerlessness'

> > brainwashing...)

> >

> > Maybe I'm just too rational for Rational Recovery :-)

> >

> > --wally

> >

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: <CarolFrancey@n...>

> >

> > > Hi,

> > > I don't know if anyone hit on this yet but JT took the cognitive

> therapy

> > > aspects out of AVRT because the Beast uses and Mine did for sure

> the

> > > cognitive ascpects to justify going back to getting high. So the

> > autocratic

> > > approcah is black and white, perfectionistic the way a chess game

> is or a

> > > crossword puzzle and the decision is not contingent on anything

> period.

> > > Do you see the difference? Putting any idea like " I shouldn't be a

> > > perfectionist about quitting. Afterall, no one is perfect. " just

> leaves

> > the

> > > door open wide and happily to have another round of drinks. When

> it is

> > over

> > > it is over no matter what comes your way.

> > > Carol

> > [snip]

>

>

> eGroups Sponsor

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/9/01 4:50:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,

cbarker@... writes:

<< He is human though and his message that his AVRT/Beast method is the only

way (He told me that in a personal e-mail) to beat addiction doesn't help

me. However, I can take his method or leave it.

>>

What if this were the only treatment modality offered and supported by most

social institutions? P.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/9/01 10:00:53 AM Pacific Standard Time,

CarolFrancey@... writes:

<< Hi,

I don't know if anyone hit on this yet but JT took the cognitive therapy

aspects out of AVRT because the Beast uses and Mine did for sure the

cognitive ascpects to justify going back to getting high. So the autocratic

approcah is black and white, perfectionistic the way a chess game is or a

crossword puzzle and the decision is not contingent on anything period.

Do you see the difference? Putting any idea like " I shouldn't be a

perfectionist about quitting. Afterall, no one is perfect. " just leaves the

door open wide and happily to have another round of drinks. When it is over

it is over no matter what comes your way.

Carol

12-step-freeegroups wrote: >>

What???

[Guest guest]

Hi P.

If RR was the only approved method, it would result in a fascist attitude

towards 'addicts'.

Even though JT has got a lot of relevant criticism regarding AA, he's not the

solution.

JT's writings is in my mind analogue to paintings done by schizophrenic

patients. They give me an experience of art, but the painters are still mad.

Still I think that his method can help a lot of people, because it's an

ingenious example of how cognitive power can work.

JT's problem is, that he confuses his own technique with how reality is

constructed, and that's a major mistake.

B.

P.S.

At a seminar in Copenhagen last autumn I got into a debate with an AA'er about

the possibility to chose treatment in US.

She said: " But there is Rational Recovery " .

Then I laughed and shouted: " Oh, you mean Jack Trimpey, but he hates AA more

than anyone else!! "

She didn't speak no more.

---------------------------------------------------

But then, why should an AA'er approve RR?

I think, with reference to hegelian dialectics, that opposites are more alike

than they seem.

Bjørn

Re: Rational Recovery/Jack Trimpey

> In a message dated 1/9/01 4:50:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> cbarker@... writes:

>

> << He is human though and his message that his AVRT/Beast method is the only

> way (He told me that in a personal e-mail) to beat addiction doesn't help

> me. However, I can take his method or leave it.

>

> >>

>

> What if this were the only treatment modality offered and supported by most

> social institutions? P.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi P.

If RR was the only approved method, it would result in a fascist attitude

towards 'addicts'.

Even though JT has got a lot of relevant criticism regarding AA, he's not the

solution.

JT's writings is in my mind analogue to paintings done by schizophrenic

patients. They give me an experience of art, but the painters are still mad.

Still I think that his method can help a lot of people, because it's an

ingenious example of how cognitive power can work.

JT's problem is, that he confuses his own technique with how reality is

constructed, and that's a major mistake.

B.

P.S.

At a seminar in Copenhagen last autumn I got into a debate with an AA'er about

the possibility to chose treatment in US.

She said: " But there is Rational Recovery " .

Then I laughed and shouted: " Oh, you mean Jack Trimpey, but he hates AA more

than anyone else!! "

She didn't speak no more.

---------------------------------------------------

But then, why should an AA'er approve RR?

I think, with reference to hegelian dialectics, that opposites are more alike

than they seem.

Bjørn

Re: Rational Recovery/Jack Trimpey

> In a message dated 1/9/01 4:50:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> cbarker@... writes:

>

> << He is human though and his message that his AVRT/Beast method is the only

> way (He told me that in a personal e-mail) to beat addiction doesn't help

> me. However, I can take his method or leave it.

>

> >>

>

> What if this were the only treatment modality offered and supported by most

> social institutions? P.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/11/01 1:37:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,

herring@... writes:

<< Hi P.

If RR was the only approved method, it would result in a fascist attitude

towards 'addicts'.

Even though JT has got a lot of relevant criticism regarding AA, he's not

the solution.

JT's writings is in my mind analogue to paintings done by schizophrenic

patients. They give me an experience of art, but the painters are still mad.

Still I think that his method can help a lot of people, because it's an

ingenious example of how cognitive power can work.

JT's problem is, that he confuses his own technique with how reality is

constructed, and that's a major mistake.

>>

Hi B. I agree with all of the above, especially with the idea that he

doesn't want reality constructed any more complexly or or different from his

own. Hence, the anti-intellectualism. P.

[Guest guest]

Hey Bjorn

Do you wanna discuss Hegel with my sorta gf? Her mind is all yours...

I'm surprised to find out Trimpey is a gun-owner type. I am tempted to

satirize his " Recovery Groups Cancelled " declaration he made a while

back. " Police Forces Cancelled " . Why do you need the support of a

Police Force when you can blow the bad guys away all by yourself?

Alll you need is Rational Revenge's AVRT - Automatic Violent Response

Technique...

P.

> Hi P.

>

> If RR was the only approved method, it would result in a fascist

attitude towards 'addicts'.

> Even though JT has got a lot of relevant criticism regarding AA,

he's not the solution.

>

> JT's writings is in my mind analogue to paintings done by

schizophrenic patients. They give me an experience of art, but the

painters are still mad.

>

> Still I think that his method can help a lot of people, because it's

an ingenious example of how cognitive power can work.

>

> JT's problem is, that he confuses his own technique with how reality

is constructed, and that's a major mistake.

>

> B.

>

> P.S.

>

> At a seminar in Copenhagen last autumn I got into a debate with an

AA'er about the possibility to chose treatment in US.

>

> She said: " But there is Rational Recovery " .

>

> Then I laughed and shouted: " Oh, you mean Jack Trimpey, but he hates

AA more than anyone else!! "

>

> She didn't speak no more.

>

> ---------------------------------------------------

>

> But then, why should an AA'er approve RR?

>

> I think, with reference to hegelian dialectics, that opposites are

more alike than they seem.

>

> Bjørn

>

>

>

>

>

> Re: Rational Recovery/Jack Trimpey

>

>

> > In a message dated 1/9/01 4:50:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> > cbarker@m... writes:

> >

> > << He is human though and his message that his AVRT/Beast method

is the only

> > way (He told me that in a personal e-mail) to beat addiction

doesn't help

> > me. However, I can take his method or leave it.

> >

> > >>

> >

> > What if this were the only treatment modality offered and

supported by most

> > social institutions? P.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hey Bjorn

Do you wanna discuss Hegel with my sorta gf? Her mind is all yours...

I'm surprised to find out Trimpey is a gun-owner type. I am tempted to

satirize his " Recovery Groups Cancelled " declaration he made a while

back. " Police Forces Cancelled " . Why do you need the support of a

Police Force when you can blow the bad guys away all by yourself?

Alll you need is Rational Revenge's AVRT - Automatic Violent Response

Technique...

P.

> Hi P.

>

> If RR was the only approved method, it would result in a fascist

attitude towards 'addicts'.

> Even though JT has got a lot of relevant criticism regarding AA,

he's not the solution.

>

> JT's writings is in my mind analogue to paintings done by

schizophrenic patients. They give me an experience of art, but the

painters are still mad.

>

> Still I think that his method can help a lot of people, because it's

an ingenious example of how cognitive power can work.

>

> JT's problem is, that he confuses his own technique with how reality

is constructed, and that's a major mistake.

>

> B.

>

> P.S.

>

> At a seminar in Copenhagen last autumn I got into a debate with an

AA'er about the possibility to chose treatment in US.

>

> She said: " But there is Rational Recovery " .

>

> Then I laughed and shouted: " Oh, you mean Jack Trimpey, but he hates

AA more than anyone else!! "

>

> She didn't speak no more.

>

> ---------------------------------------------------

>

> But then, why should an AA'er approve RR?

>

> I think, with reference to hegelian dialectics, that opposites are

more alike than they seem.

>

> Bjørn

>

>

>

>

>

> Re: Rational Recovery/Jack Trimpey

>

>

> > In a message dated 1/9/01 4:50:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> > cbarker@m... writes:

> >

> > << He is human though and his message that his AVRT/Beast method

is the only

> > way (He told me that in a personal e-mail) to beat addiction

doesn't help

> > me. However, I can take his method or leave it.

> >

> > >>

> >

> > What if this were the only treatment modality offered and

supported by most

> > social institutions? P.

> >

> >

> >