Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 > ~ > > > I would have to disagree with your analysis of Trimpey. He is very hard to > get along with and too autocratic in dealing with people who were > facilitators in RR. > > It matters not I suppose, but I wouldn't invest time in becoming part of the > RR " family " . > > Piper I was a facilitator of RR meetings for 4 years. I never felt any pressure to run meeting any way, but the way I saw fit. I didn't know that there was a RR faimly to join. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 > ~ > > > I would have to disagree with your analysis of Trimpey. He is very hard to > get along with and too autocratic in dealing with people who were > facilitators in RR. > > It matters not I suppose, but I wouldn't invest time in becoming part of the > RR " family " . > > Piper I was a facilitator of RR meetings for 4 years. I never felt any pressure to run meeting any way, but the way I saw fit. I didn't know that there was a RR faimly to join. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 >Yes, please cut short > the religious, POLITICAL (free enterprise system and survivalism) and > folklore considerations and subject all ideas to critique??? You are > preaching to the choir here Ken. LOL. Piper. Trimpey and my Step Nazi rehab running ex-sponsor would probably get along famously politically. How funny that their similar authoritarianism should maker them adopt such apparently contrary positions. In reality supposedly impacable enemies often resembel each other, and this is no exception. P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 >Yes, please cut short > the religious, POLITICAL (free enterprise system and survivalism) and > folklore considerations and subject all ideas to critique??? You are > preaching to the choir here Ken. LOL. Piper. Trimpey and my Step Nazi rehab running ex-sponsor would probably get along famously politically. How funny that their similar authoritarianism should maker them adopt such apparently contrary positions. In reality supposedly impacable enemies often resembel each other, and this is no exception. P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 >Yes, please cut short > the religious, POLITICAL (free enterprise system and survivalism) and > folklore considerations and subject all ideas to critique??? You are > preaching to the choir here Ken. LOL. Piper. Trimpey and my Step Nazi rehab running ex-sponsor would probably get along famously politically. How funny that their similar authoritarianism should maker them adopt such apparently contrary positions. In reality supposedly impacable enemies often resembel each other, and this is no exception. P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 If people wonder if speaking out against XA is useless, it was Kack Trimpey's web site that planted the seed that XA was full of myth, superstitution and downright lies. (Others here would say I'm being kind with these words). The seed was planted that XA doctrine contained no absolute truths about addiction and that in fact much of it is harmful to capable individuals looking to solve their addiction problems. He is human though and his message that his AVRT/Beast method is the only way (He told me that in a personal e-mail) to beat addiction doesn't help me. However, I can take his method or leave it. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 If people wonder if speaking out against XA is useless, it was Kack Trimpey's web site that planted the seed that XA was full of myth, superstitution and downright lies. (Others here would say I'm being kind with these words). The seed was planted that XA doctrine contained no absolute truths about addiction and that in fact much of it is harmful to capable individuals looking to solve their addiction problems. He is human though and his message that his AVRT/Beast method is the only way (He told me that in a personal e-mail) to beat addiction doesn't help me. However, I can take his method or leave it. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 i too give trimpley credit for being vocal, if nothing else he has drawn attention to AA dark side. and although i never used rr , the things he says about beast and internal dialouge make some sense and were similar to techniques i discovered on my own when i quit. i do hate that term, " beast " however, every time i read rr stuff and see it, i cringe, its a silly metaphor which comes across as superstious anything aa says, regardless of what it is refering too. that alone probably keeps treatment profsionals from taking it seriously, although it is far less comical than a faith healing HP. > If people wonder if speaking out against XA is useless, it was Kack > Trimpey's web site that planted the seed that XA was full of myth, > superstitution and downright lies. (Others here would say I'm being kind > with these words). The seed was planted that XA doctrine contained no > absolute truths about addiction and that in fact much of it is harmful to > capable individuals looking to solve their addiction problems. > > He is human though and his message that his AVRT/Beast method is the only > way (He told me that in a personal e-mail) to beat addiction doesn't help > me. However, I can take his method or leave it. > > Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 Barker wrote: > If people wonder if speaking out against XA is useless, it was Jack > Trimpey's web site that planted the seed that XA was full of myth, > superstitution and downright lies. Are you saying that Trimpey's web site is where you first encountered the above ideas? Or are you saying that is where all criticism of the 12 step movement originally germinated? While I applaud Trimpey's pioneering work in demystifying the 12 step faith healing movement, I can't agree that he planted THE seed with his web site. Albert Ellis and others were publishing critiques of aa decades earlier. Peace, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 can you tell me more about ellis's critique and where i may find it? Albert Ellis and others were publishing critiques > of aa decades earlier. > > Peace, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 can you tell me more about ellis's critique and where i may find it? Albert Ellis and others were publishing critiques > of aa decades earlier. > > Peace, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 can you tell me more about ellis's critique and where i may find it? Albert Ellis and others were publishing critiques > of aa decades earlier. > > Peace, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 Hi, I don't know if anyone hit on this yet but JT took the cognitive therapy aspects out of AVRT because the Beast uses and Mine did for sure the cognitive ascpects to justify going back to getting high. So the autocratic approcah is black and white, perfectionistic the way a chess game is or a crossword puzzle and the decision is not contingent on anything period. Do you see the difference? Putting any idea like " I shouldn't be a perfectionist about quitting. Afterall, no one is perfect. " just leaves the door open wide and happily to have another round of drinks. When it is over it is over no matter what comes your way. Carol 12-step-freeegroups wrote: > > In a message dated 1/7/01 5:27:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, > njacobs@... writes: > > << My question is: Â What about Jack Trimpey? Â From what I've read he's kind > of difficult to get along with. Â A person can tell from his site > www.rational.org that the guy hates AA and that's a plus in my book but I can > see how his jihad would turn some people off. Â I think this was part of the > reason behind his split with SMART Recovery. > Â > Â What do you know out there? >> > > > Nate~ > > Yes, Trimpey is very difficult to get along with. Â Something happened along > the way in establishing RR. Â My feeling was that he wanted to make a lot of > money from RR in starting AVRT " treatment " groups in centers of some kind. Â > He didn't seem to play well with others. Â He was to autocratic in his > dealings with those running RR groups in various parts of California and I > assume other places. Â His writing began to take on political overetones of > survivalist politics, which seemed pretty screwy to me. Â People running RR > groups were usually very competent and creative thinkers. Â He made it > impossible to stay with RR with all of HIS rules and conditions for being RR > facilitators. > > His basic writings, which are based almost soley on Albert Ellis's Rational > Emotive Behavioral Therapy concepts, are good concepts. Â As a self-help > movement RR just didn't make it and there was a split from RR to Smart > Recovery for many people. > > There is more if you are interested, but that is my basic take on the Trimpey > saga. > Piper. > __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 Sme with me . No pressure to run it any way at all or at all. You could run the " Final Fix " tapes, make your own posters, discuss, take parts of the book, but JT did say if you have fun with it you are doing it right. I never had any interference and yeah there's no family. There is an international network but then you guys are one already. Take care, Don't be so serious. JT hasn't lost his sense of humor. The book was funny too. HT also has a terrific sense of humor which for those who remember reading the Book " Rational Recovery: The New Cure " will recall laughing out loud. Cheers, Carol 12-step-freeegroups wrote: > > > > ~ > > > > > > I would have to disagree with your analysis of Trimpey. Â He is very > hard to > > get along with and too autocratic in dealing with people who were > > facilitators in RR. > > > > It matters not I suppose, but I wouldn't invest time in becoming > part of the > > RR " family " . > > > > Piper > > > I was a facilitator of RR meetings for 4 years. I never felt any > pressure to run meeting any way, but the way I saw fit. > > I didn't know that there was a RR faimly to join. > > > __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 Yes, they are wonderful people. Jack gave me total hope when I spoke to him the first time and his words keep unfolding for me. A terrific, generous (his whole education is on the net for free) and Lois is soft and compassionate with a strong belief in the abilities of people to manage their lives without interference. Horray for us to have them. Carol 12-step-freeegroups wrote: > > Nate: I have met Jack, I have been to his house (for the yearly beast party) and I can say I have never meet two more caring people than Jack and his wife Lois. > While Jack has very strong beliefs about addiction, I don't think that he is hard to get along with. > His disdain for AA comes from in part hearing the horror stories from the hundreds of people who call RR every week. > > You have it backward, Smart split from RR after they unsuccessfully tried to get control of his trademarked material. > If you have any questions you can e-mail jack he is very good about replying to his mail. > __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 What I wrote has to do with me personally. It was the first time I had read anything against AA, CB Re: Rational Recovery/Jack Trimpey > Barker wrote: > > > If people wonder if speaking out against XA is useless, it was Jack > > Trimpey's web site that planted the seed that XA was full of myth, > > superstitution and downright lies. > > Are you saying that Trimpey's web site is where you first encountered the > above ideas? Or are you saying that is where all criticism of the 12 step > movement originally germinated? While I applaud Trimpey's pioneering work in > demystifying the 12 step faith healing movement, I can't agree that he planted > THE seed with his web site. Albert Ellis and others were publishing critiques > of aa decades earlier. > > Peace, > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 > Albert Ellis and others were publishing critiques > > of aa decades earlier. > > > > Peace, > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 > Albert Ellis and others were publishing critiques > > of aa decades earlier. > > > > Peace, > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 > Albert Ellis and others were publishing critiques > > of aa decades earlier. > > > > Peace, > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 At 12:58 AM 1/10/01 -0000, Railroad Rita wrote: > > >> can you tell me more about ellis's critique and where i may find >> it? >> >-------------------- > > Ellis wrote a book called " When AA Doesn't Work For You: Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol " . It wasn't quite the same thing Trimpey had in mind with AVRT -- it was much more therapy-oriented -- but truly Ellis was no great fan of AA, particularly regarding the unhealthy " powerlessness " idea. It's available in paperback from Amazon.com, probably you can get a cheaper one from that discount bookseller Stuart mentioned a while back, can't remember the name. > >~Rita There are several used copies listed on bookfinder.com starting at $7.95, though it shows fatbrain selling it new with a price of $11.95. If you want to save every penny you can, look at all the cheap sellers and add their shipping costs to their price to get the total purchase price. There are some interesting reader reviews at Amazon here: <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0520067541> I recall a while back discussion on the list of the third review, where the reviewer says his brother quit AA and killed himself while reading the book. The most recent review is also interesting in the context of this thread. ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 At 12:58 AM 1/10/01 -0000, Railroad Rita wrote: > > >> can you tell me more about ellis's critique and where i may find >> it? >> >-------------------- > > Ellis wrote a book called " When AA Doesn't Work For You: Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol " . It wasn't quite the same thing Trimpey had in mind with AVRT -- it was much more therapy-oriented -- but truly Ellis was no great fan of AA, particularly regarding the unhealthy " powerlessness " idea. It's available in paperback from Amazon.com, probably you can get a cheaper one from that discount bookseller Stuart mentioned a while back, can't remember the name. > >~Rita There are several used copies listed on bookfinder.com starting at $7.95, though it shows fatbrain selling it new with a price of $11.95. If you want to save every penny you can, look at all the cheap sellers and add their shipping costs to their price to get the total purchase price. There are some interesting reader reviews at Amazon here: <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0520067541> I recall a while back discussion on the list of the third review, where the reviewer says his brother quit AA and killed himself while reading the book. The most recent review is also interesting in the context of this thread. ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 At 12:58 AM 1/10/01 -0000, Railroad Rita wrote: > > >> can you tell me more about ellis's critique and where i may find >> it? >> >-------------------- > > Ellis wrote a book called " When AA Doesn't Work For You: Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol " . It wasn't quite the same thing Trimpey had in mind with AVRT -- it was much more therapy-oriented -- but truly Ellis was no great fan of AA, particularly regarding the unhealthy " powerlessness " idea. It's available in paperback from Amazon.com, probably you can get a cheaper one from that discount bookseller Stuart mentioned a while back, can't remember the name. > >~Rita There are several used copies listed on bookfinder.com starting at $7.95, though it shows fatbrain selling it new with a price of $11.95. If you want to save every penny you can, look at all the cheap sellers and add their shipping costs to their price to get the total purchase price. There are some interesting reader reviews at Amazon here: <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0520067541> I recall a while back discussion on the list of the third review, where the reviewer says his brother quit AA and killed himself while reading the book. The most recent review is also interesting in the context of this thread. ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 You know, ever since I first encountered the 'autocratic' version of RR (6 years ago, when I read 'AVRT: The Final Fix') I have considered it flawed. Decisions (e. g., to quit drinking forever) are either rational or arbitrary. If rational, they are subject to reconsideration based on new information, value system changes, personal growth, etc. If arbitrary, then they can be changed just as arbitrarily as they were made to begin with. RR(2) seems to place the decision to abstain 'outside the program,' giving you AVRT -- a method for not drinking which presumes that you have already decided not to drink. But I've never had a problem not drinking when I didn't want to (at least not since I managed to shuck the 'powerlessness' brainwashing...) Maybe I'm just too rational for Rational Recovery :-) --wally ----- Original Message ----- > Hi, > I don't know if anyone hit on this yet but JT took the cognitive therapy > aspects out of AVRT because the Beast uses and Mine did for sure the > cognitive ascpects to justify going back to getting high. So the autocratic > approcah is black and white, perfectionistic the way a chess game is or a > crossword puzzle and the decision is not contingent on anything period. > Do you see the difference? Putting any idea like " I shouldn't be a > perfectionist about quitting. Afterall, no one is perfect. " just leaves the > door open wide and happily to have another round of drinks. When it is over > it is over no matter what comes your way. > Carol [snip] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2001 Report Share Posted January 9, 2001 The earliest RET vs alcohol dependency book intended as a recovery manual for the drinker was by Maultsby, Maxie C.: A Million Dollars for Your Hangover: The Illustrated Guide for the New Self-Help Alcoholic Treatment Method ; Lexington,Kentucky: Rational Self-Help Books, 1978. Re: Rational Recovery/Jack Trimpey > > > Albert Ellis and others were publishing critiques > > > of aa decades earlier. > > > > > > Peace, > > > > > > eGroups Sponsor > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2001 Report Share Posted January 10, 2001 Hi Wally Nice critique of the RR counterpart of AA dogma. If I cant be helped by a support group to not do something that is 100% in my control, why should I be helped by AVRT either? I just dont do it, right? Before you start escribbling Dave T the only thing I want to say to you is that I failed to mention RR in a recent post simply because I forgot about it, no other reason. If you were on ADD_MED you would know that I have I think three times mentioned AVRT and/or RR WITHOUT EVEN MENTIONING OTHER AA ALTERNIATIVES in my posts. In other words, AVRT might appear to be *preferred* by me by those who saw only my posts on *that* list. Before you indulge in your sneering, it might be a good idea to get your facts straight. Have the last word if you want but if it's more of your McEnroe " Waddido, waddidsay? " routine jam it. With regard to the above the only thing I will read from you is an apology. > You know, ever since I first encountered the 'autocratic' version of RR (6 > years ago, when I read 'AVRT: The Final Fix') I have considered it flawed. > Decisions (e. g., to quit drinking forever) are either rational or > arbitrary. If rational, they are subject to reconsideration based on new > information, value system changes, personal growth, etc. If arbitrary, then > they can be changed just as arbitrarily as they were made to begin with. > RR(2) seems to place the decision to abstain 'outside the program,' giving > you AVRT -- a method for not drinking which presumes that you have already > decided not to drink. But I've never had a problem not drinking when I > didn't want to (at least not since I managed to shuck the 'powerlessness' > brainwashing...) > > Maybe I'm just too rational for Rational Recovery :-) > > --wally > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <CarolFrancey@n...> > > > Hi, > > I don't know if anyone hit on this yet but JT took the cognitive therapy > > aspects out of AVRT because the Beast uses and Mine did for sure the > > cognitive ascpects to justify going back to getting high. So the > autocratic > > approcah is black and white, perfectionistic the way a chess game is or a > > crossword puzzle and the decision is not contingent on anything period. > > Do you see the difference? Putting any idea like " I shouldn't be a > > perfectionist about quitting. Afterall, no one is perfect. " just leaves > the > > door open wide and happily to have another round of drinks. When it is > over > > it is over no matter what comes your way. > > Carol > [snip] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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