Guest guest Posted January 7, 2001 Report Share Posted January 7, 2001 I read the book Rational Recovery and found it extremely helpful in gettting rid of AA's Boogeyman worldview of alcoholism. I recommend the book to anybody. Anybody who wants to quit drinking or stay quit drinking should learn AVRT. My question is: What about Jack Trimpey? From what I've read he's kind of difficult to get along with. A person can tell from his site www.rational.org that the guy hates AA and that's a plus in my book but I can see how his jihad would turn some people off. I think this was part of the reason behind his split with SMART Recovery. What do you know out there? Nate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2001 Report Share Posted January 7, 2001 I read the book Rational Recovery and found it extremely helpful in gettting rid of AA's Boogeyman worldview of alcoholism. I recommend the book to anybody. Anybody who wants to quit drinking or stay quit drinking should learn AVRT. My question is: What about Jack Trimpey? From what I've read he's kind of difficult to get along with. A person can tell from his site www.rational.org that the guy hates AA and that's a plus in my book but I can see how his jihad would turn some people off. I think this was part of the reason behind his split with SMART Recovery. What do you know out there? Nate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2001 Report Share Posted January 7, 2001 I read the book Rational Recovery and found it extremely helpful in gettting rid of AA's Boogeyman worldview of alcoholism. I recommend the book to anybody. Anybody who wants to quit drinking or stay quit drinking should learn AVRT. My question is: What about Jack Trimpey? From what I've read he's kind of difficult to get along with. A person can tell from his site www.rational.org that the guy hates AA and that's a plus in my book but I can see how his jihad would turn some people off. I think this was part of the reason behind his split with SMART Recovery. What do you know out there? Nate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2001 Report Share Posted January 7, 2001 Nate: I have met Jack, I have been to his house (for the yearly beast party) and I can say I have never meet two more caring people than Jack and his wife Lois. While Jack has very strong beliefs about addiction, I don't think that he is hard to get along with. His disdain for AA comes from in part hearing the horror stories from the hundreds of people who call RR every week. You have it backward, Smart split from RR after they unsuccessfully tried to get control of his trademarked material. If you have any questions you can e-mail jack he is very good about replying to his mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2001 Report Share Posted January 7, 2001 Nate: I have met Jack, I have been to his house (for the yearly beast party) and I can say I have never meet two more caring people than Jack and his wife Lois. While Jack has very strong beliefs about addiction, I don't think that he is hard to get along with. His disdain for AA comes from in part hearing the horror stories from the hundreds of people who call RR every week. You have it backward, Smart split from RR after they unsuccessfully tried to get control of his trademarked material. If you have any questions you can e-mail jack he is very good about replying to his mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2001 Report Share Posted January 7, 2001 Nate: I have met Jack, I have been to his house (for the yearly beast party) and I can say I have never meet two more caring people than Jack and his wife Lois. While Jack has very strong beliefs about addiction, I don't think that he is hard to get along with. His disdain for AA comes from in part hearing the horror stories from the hundreds of people who call RR every week. You have it backward, Smart split from RR after they unsuccessfully tried to get control of his trademarked material. If you have any questions you can e-mail jack he is very good about replying to his mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2001 Report Share Posted January 7, 2001 Nate s wrote: I read the book Rational Recovery and found it extremely helpful in gettting rid of AA's Boogeyman worldview of alcoholism. I recommend the book to anybody. Anybody who wants to quit drinking or stay quit drinking should learn AVRT. My question is: What about Jack Trimpey? From what I've read he's kind of difficult to get along with. A person can tell from his site www.rational.org that the guy hates AA and that's a plus in my book but I can see how his jihad would turn some people off. I think this was part of the reason behind his split with SMART Recovery. What do you know out there? Hi Nate and list, While I believe AVRT can have some practical uses, to sell it as total solution for addiction as Trimpey seems to is a bit of an over simplification. In the early period of my abstinence I would personify my urges to use in order to carry out an internal dialog with my "addict". While I always knew I was talking to myself I found this "dialectic in my head" useful in making better decisions about using. I have some problems with demonizing the "addictive voice" as the "Beast". Besides being a little oafish, demonizing the subconscious workings of our minds does not strike me completely healthy. I personally would have found the principals of AVRT wholly inadequate for changing the things I had to in order to free myself from the self destructive use of drugs. While you may have gathered from my other post that I'm no fan of the 12 step faith healing movement, I find some of Trimpey's tactics and critiques of XA to be counter productive. I think the man might have lost sight of one of his original objections, the de facto monopoly on "treatment" enjoyed by XA. He now promotes, as a for profit business, AVRT as the only cure for addiction. I believe all the resources of AVRT and much more are available through SMART at no charge. (To be fair donations are requested by SMART) Here is an example of one Trimpey's "tactics" I find objectionable. The following is a quote taken from the RR web site. "I really love the free enterprise system and the opportunities it makes available to everyone. One of the most common attacks upon me is that I am a greedy, fat cat exploiting the misery of others as president of an evil, for-profit corporation. This juvenile criticism always comes from 12-steppers who claim that because AA is a nonprofit organization it is morally superior to Rational Recovery." While I have made this basic criticism of RR I am by no means one of the "12-steppers who claim that because AA is a nonprofit organization it is morally superior to Rational Recovery." And yet, according to Trimpey, this criticism "always" comes from defenders of the moral superiority of the 12 step faith healing movement. On the other hand, Trimpey is undeniably a true pioneer in the struggle expose the 12 step faith healing movement as the religious organization it is. I would also accept that AVRT has helped far more people deal effectively with addictive behavior than XA has or ever will. For this I believe Trimpey deserves much gratitude and thanks for his tireless efforts. Peace, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2001 Report Share Posted January 7, 2001 Nate s wrote: I read the book Rational Recovery and found it extremely helpful in gettting rid of AA's Boogeyman worldview of alcoholism. I recommend the book to anybody. Anybody who wants to quit drinking or stay quit drinking should learn AVRT. My question is: What about Jack Trimpey? From what I've read he's kind of difficult to get along with. A person can tell from his site www.rational.org that the guy hates AA and that's a plus in my book but I can see how his jihad would turn some people off. I think this was part of the reason behind his split with SMART Recovery. What do you know out there? Hi Nate and list, While I believe AVRT can have some practical uses, to sell it as total solution for addiction as Trimpey seems to is a bit of an over simplification. In the early period of my abstinence I would personify my urges to use in order to carry out an internal dialog with my "addict". While I always knew I was talking to myself I found this "dialectic in my head" useful in making better decisions about using. I have some problems with demonizing the "addictive voice" as the "Beast". Besides being a little oafish, demonizing the subconscious workings of our minds does not strike me completely healthy. I personally would have found the principals of AVRT wholly inadequate for changing the things I had to in order to free myself from the self destructive use of drugs. While you may have gathered from my other post that I'm no fan of the 12 step faith healing movement, I find some of Trimpey's tactics and critiques of XA to be counter productive. I think the man might have lost sight of one of his original objections, the de facto monopoly on "treatment" enjoyed by XA. He now promotes, as a for profit business, AVRT as the only cure for addiction. I believe all the resources of AVRT and much more are available through SMART at no charge. (To be fair donations are requested by SMART) Here is an example of one Trimpey's "tactics" I find objectionable. The following is a quote taken from the RR web site. "I really love the free enterprise system and the opportunities it makes available to everyone. One of the most common attacks upon me is that I am a greedy, fat cat exploiting the misery of others as president of an evil, for-profit corporation. This juvenile criticism always comes from 12-steppers who claim that because AA is a nonprofit organization it is morally superior to Rational Recovery." While I have made this basic criticism of RR I am by no means one of the "12-steppers who claim that because AA is a nonprofit organization it is morally superior to Rational Recovery." And yet, according to Trimpey, this criticism "always" comes from defenders of the moral superiority of the 12 step faith healing movement. On the other hand, Trimpey is undeniably a true pioneer in the struggle expose the 12 step faith healing movement as the religious organization it is. I would also accept that AVRT has helped far more people deal effectively with addictive behavior than XA has or ever will. For this I believe Trimpey deserves much gratitude and thanks for his tireless efforts. Peace, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2001 Report Share Posted January 7, 2001 Nate s wrote: I read the book Rational Recovery and found it extremely helpful in gettting rid of AA's Boogeyman worldview of alcoholism. I recommend the book to anybody. Anybody who wants to quit drinking or stay quit drinking should learn AVRT. My question is: What about Jack Trimpey? From what I've read he's kind of difficult to get along with. A person can tell from his site www.rational.org that the guy hates AA and that's a plus in my book but I can see how his jihad would turn some people off. I think this was part of the reason behind his split with SMART Recovery. What do you know out there? Hi Nate and list, While I believe AVRT can have some practical uses, to sell it as total solution for addiction as Trimpey seems to is a bit of an over simplification. In the early period of my abstinence I would personify my urges to use in order to carry out an internal dialog with my "addict". While I always knew I was talking to myself I found this "dialectic in my head" useful in making better decisions about using. I have some problems with demonizing the "addictive voice" as the "Beast". Besides being a little oafish, demonizing the subconscious workings of our minds does not strike me completely healthy. I personally would have found the principals of AVRT wholly inadequate for changing the things I had to in order to free myself from the self destructive use of drugs. While you may have gathered from my other post that I'm no fan of the 12 step faith healing movement, I find some of Trimpey's tactics and critiques of XA to be counter productive. I think the man might have lost sight of one of his original objections, the de facto monopoly on "treatment" enjoyed by XA. He now promotes, as a for profit business, AVRT as the only cure for addiction. I believe all the resources of AVRT and much more are available through SMART at no charge. (To be fair donations are requested by SMART) Here is an example of one Trimpey's "tactics" I find objectionable. The following is a quote taken from the RR web site. "I really love the free enterprise system and the opportunities it makes available to everyone. One of the most common attacks upon me is that I am a greedy, fat cat exploiting the misery of others as president of an evil, for-profit corporation. This juvenile criticism always comes from 12-steppers who claim that because AA is a nonprofit organization it is morally superior to Rational Recovery." While I have made this basic criticism of RR I am by no means one of the "12-steppers who claim that because AA is a nonprofit organization it is morally superior to Rational Recovery." And yet, according to Trimpey, this criticism "always" comes from defenders of the moral superiority of the 12 step faith healing movement. On the other hand, Trimpey is undeniably a true pioneer in the struggle expose the 12 step faith healing movement as the religious organization it is. I would also accept that AVRT has helped far more people deal effectively with addictive behavior than XA has or ever will. For this I believe Trimpey deserves much gratitude and thanks for his tireless efforts. Peace, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 > I read the book Rational Recovery and found it extremely helpful in gettting rid of AA's Boogeyman worldview of alcoholism. I recommend the book to anybody. Anybody who wants to quit drinking or stay quit drinking should learn AVRT. > > My question is: What about Jack Trimpey? From what I've read he's kind of difficult to get along with. A person can tell from his site www.rational.org that the guy hates AA and that's a plus in my book but I can see how his jihad would turn some people off. I think this was part of the reason behind his split with SMART Recovery. > > What do you know out there? I know Jack and Lois personally, and have met with them for an access TV show a couple of times and have talked extensively on the phone to Lois. Both of them very much care about people with alcohol problems. I think they've done a terrific service for these people,and for the cause in general. While some people think they have too much hatred of AA, others greatly benefit from the deprogramming aspects of the RR attitude toward recovery groups. I'll never forget the laughs I got 5 years ago, detoxing after a weeklong drunk and reading the Small Book. Everyone of us with whatever attitudes we have toward AA has his/her place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 > I read the book Rational Recovery and found it extremely helpful in gettting rid of AA's Boogeyman worldview of alcoholism. I recommend the book to anybody. Anybody who wants to quit drinking or stay quit drinking should learn AVRT. > > My question is: What about Jack Trimpey? From what I've read he's kind of difficult to get along with. A person can tell from his site www.rational.org that the guy hates AA and that's a plus in my book but I can see how his jihad would turn some people off. I think this was part of the reason behind his split with SMART Recovery. > > What do you know out there? I know Jack and Lois personally, and have met with them for an access TV show a couple of times and have talked extensively on the phone to Lois. Both of them very much care about people with alcohol problems. I think they've done a terrific service for these people,and for the cause in general. While some people think they have too much hatred of AA, others greatly benefit from the deprogramming aspects of the RR attitude toward recovery groups. I'll never forget the laughs I got 5 years ago, detoxing after a weeklong drunk and reading the Small Book. Everyone of us with whatever attitudes we have toward AA has his/her place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 Being an anarchist by heart, autocratic systems, like the rehabs I've worked for, are by nature, in my belief, non healing, non growth, and except by miracle, non effective except by the leaders definition. And I would avoid the " family " like the plague. Larry Pipercubxt@... wrote: > > ~ > > I would have to disagree with your analysis of Trimpey. He is very hard to > get along with and too autocratic in dealing with people who were > facilitators in RR. > > It matters not I suppose, but I wouldn't invest time in becoming part of the > RR " family " . > > Piper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 In a message dated 1/7/01 5:27:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, njacobs@... writes: << My question is: What about Jack Trimpey? From what I've read he's kind of difficult to get along with. A person can tell from his site www.rational.org that the guy hates AA and that's a plus in my book but I can see how his jihad would turn some people off. I think this was part of the reason behind his split with SMART Recovery. What do you know out there? >> Nate~ Yes, Trimpey is very difficult to get along with. Something happened along the way in establishing RR. My feeling was that he wanted to make a lot of money from RR in starting AVRT " treatment " groups in centers of some kind. He didn't seem to play well with others. He was to autocratic in his dealings with those running RR groups in various parts of California and I assume other places. His writing began to take on political overetones of survivalist politics, which seemed pretty screwy to me. People running RR groups were usually very competent and creative thinkers. He made it impossible to stay with RR with all of HIS rules and conditions for being RR facilitators. His basic writings, which are based almost soley on Albert Ellis's Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy concepts, are good concepts. As a self-help movement RR just didn't make it and there was a split from RR to Smart Recovery for many people. There is more if you are interested, but that is my basic take on the Trimpey saga. Piper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 ~ I would have to disagree with your analysis of Trimpey. He is very hard to get along with and too autocratic in dealing with people who were facilitators in RR. It matters not I suppose, but I wouldn't invest time in becoming part of the RR " family " . Piper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 In a message dated 1/7/01 8:42:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, Stigmata@... writes: << While I believe AVRT can have some practical uses, to sell it as total solution for addiction as Trimpey seems to is a bit of an over simplification. In the early period of my abstinence I would personify my urges to use in order to carry out an internal dialog with my " addict " . While I always knew I was >> ~~ I think this is an excellent analysis of the Trimpey situation. It is not only 12-steppers who object to the capitalizing on what should be a profit-free zone of self-help recovery. You don't have to be a moron to object to profiteering. Also, Trimpey became extremely anti-intellectual. The AVRT is obviously an over- simplification of a complex neural process of addiction in the brain. That it can be a useful SINGLE technique in a larger system is not a problem. That it should be MARKETED for " treatment centers " doesn't warm the cockles of my heart. Trimpey used to be fond of ridiculing those with advanced degrees, who wanted to discuss issues such as these in more detail. It was usually his way, or the highway. That Trimpey is a pioneer, too, is not at question, and most are grateful for what he initiated. Mixing in politics (survivalist as far as I can tell) with ramblings about guns and the government, does not seem to embelish his addiction theory. I say good luck to he and Lois and let the buyer beware. Piper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 In a message dated 1/8/01 1:15:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, kenr1@... writes: << f you have ever spent time on a discussion list where there are those with advanced degrees, there is quite a bit of reason to ridicule them. The addictions field is long on folklore and religious zeal, short on science. Ken Ragge >> Umm. The thinkers are the ones who do the science?? Yes, please cut short the religious, POLITICAL (free enterprise system and survivalism) and folklore considerations and subject all ideas to critique??? You are preaching to the choir here Ken. LOL. Piper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 In a message dated 1/8/01 1:15:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, kenr1@... writes: << f you have ever spent time on a discussion list where there are those with advanced degrees, there is quite a bit of reason to ridicule them. The addictions field is long on folklore and religious zeal, short on science. Ken Ragge >> Umm. The thinkers are the ones who do the science?? Yes, please cut short the religious, POLITICAL (free enterprise system and survivalism) and folklore considerations and subject all ideas to critique??? You are preaching to the choir here Ken. LOL. Piper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 In a message dated 1/8/01 1:15:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, kenr1@... writes: << f you have ever spent time on a discussion list where there are those with advanced degrees, there is quite a bit of reason to ridicule them. The addictions field is long on folklore and religious zeal, short on science. Ken Ragge >> Umm. The thinkers are the ones who do the science?? Yes, please cut short the religious, POLITICAL (free enterprise system and survivalism) and folklore considerations and subject all ideas to critique??? You are preaching to the choir here Ken. LOL. Piper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 Very much so, but whose politics? I know many highly degreed people that just follow what is politicaly correct. 12 step programs are very popular and acadamians to get or hold tenur must please the acadamy and thier constituents. So sometimes the statistics you get are not the most reliable. They are the most self advancing to the researcher. Larry > Since reliable statistics for meaningful outcomes are so expensive and > difficult to accumulate, isn't politics an important consideration? > > Dave Trippel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 Very much so, but whose politics? I know many highly degreed people that just follow what is politicaly correct. 12 step programs are very popular and acadamians to get or hold tenur must please the acadamy and thier constituents. So sometimes the statistics you get are not the most reliable. They are the most self advancing to the researcher. Larry > Since reliable statistics for meaningful outcomes are so expensive and > difficult to accumulate, isn't politics an important consideration? > > Dave Trippel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 Very much so, but whose politics? I know many highly degreed people that just follow what is politicaly correct. 12 step programs are very popular and acadamians to get or hold tenur must please the acadamy and thier constituents. So sometimes the statistics you get are not the most reliable. They are the most self advancing to the researcher. Larry > Since reliable statistics for meaningful outcomes are so expensive and > difficult to accumulate, isn't politics an important consideration? > > Dave Trippel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 Pipercubxt@... wrote: > > In a message dated 1/7/01 8:42:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, Stigmata@... > writes: > > << While I believe AVRT can have some practical uses, to sell it as total > solution for addiction as Trimpey seems to is a bit of an over > simplification. > In the early period of my abstinence I would personify my urges to use in > order > to carry out an internal dialog with my " addict " . While I always knew I was > >> > > ~~ > > I think this is an excellent analysis of the Trimpey situation. It is not > only 12-steppers who object to the capitalizing on what should be a > profit-free zone of self-help recovery. You don't have to be a moron to > object to profiteering. , I find myself in the odd position (for me) of sticking up for one of the " alternatives " to AA with someone other than an AA. I don't think " profiteering " is a fair charge. Why should someone in the alcoholism field have to work (or do anything) for free? It certainly isn't done by the Steppers or anyone else except for " self-help " meetings, which RR simply doesn't have and which, pretty much across the board, are, for better or worse, " selling " an ideology of their own. RR doesn't have meetings for what to me seem very valid reasons. > Also, Trimpey became extremely anti-intellectual. The AVRT is obviously an > over- simplification of a complex neural process of addiction in the brain. > That it can be a useful SINGLE technique in a larger system is not a problem. Doubtless, AVRT is an over-simplification as you say. However, would it be more effective if further complicated? > That it should be MARKETED for " treatment centers " doesn't warm the cockles > of my heart. Is it now marketed for treatment centers? That's new. > Trimpey used to be fond of ridiculing those with advanced > degrees, who wanted to discuss issues such as these in more detail. It was > usually his way, or the highway. If you have ever spent time on a discussion list where there are those with advanced degrees, there is quite a bit of reason to ridicule them. The addictions field is long on folklore and religious zeal, short on science. Ken Ragge > That Trimpey is a pioneer, too, is not at question, and most are grateful for > what he initiated. > > Mixing in politics (survivalist as far as I can tell) with ramblings about > guns and the government, does not seem to embelish his addiction theory. > > I say good luck to he and Lois and let the buyer beware. > > Piper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 Re: Rational Recovery/Jack Trimpey > In a message dated 1/8/01 1:15:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, kenr1@... > writes: > > << f you have ever spent time on a discussion list where there are those > with advanced degrees, there is quite a bit of reason to ridicule them. > The addictions field is long on folklore and religious zeal, short on > science. > > Ken Ragge >> > > Umm. The thinkers are the ones who do the science?? Yes, please cut short > the religious, POLITICAL (free enterprise system and survivalism) and > folklore considerations and subject all ideas to critique??? You are > preaching to the choir here Ken. LOL. Piper. > Since reliable statistics for meaningful outcomes are so expensive and difficult to accumulate, isn't politics an important consideration? Dave Trippel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 Re: Rational Recovery/Jack Trimpey > In a message dated 1/8/01 1:15:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, kenr1@... > writes: > > << f you have ever spent time on a discussion list where there are those > with advanced degrees, there is quite a bit of reason to ridicule them. > The addictions field is long on folklore and religious zeal, short on > science. > > Ken Ragge >> > > Umm. The thinkers are the ones who do the science?? Yes, please cut short > the religious, POLITICAL (free enterprise system and survivalism) and > folklore considerations and subject all ideas to critique??? You are > preaching to the choir here Ken. LOL. Piper. > Since reliable statistics for meaningful outcomes are so expensive and difficult to accumulate, isn't politics an important consideration? Dave Trippel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2001 Report Share Posted January 8, 2001 > ~ > > > I would have to disagree with your analysis of Trimpey. He is very hard to > get along with and too autocratic in dealing with people who were > facilitators in RR. > > It matters not I suppose, but I wouldn't invest time in becoming part of the > RR " family " . > > Piper I was a facilitator of RR meetings for 4 years. I never felt any pressure to run meeting any way, but the way I saw fit. I didn't know that there was a RR faimly to join. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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