Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Hi Robin, Have you had your B12 checked as a defiency [pernicious anemia] mimics the symptoms of hypo-t? Dawntopper2@... wrote: Now? Aug 3.3 grain 1.5 grain TSH .6 .8 (.3 - 3.0) FT3 .59 (2.3 - 4.2) FT4 .77 .62 (.58 - 1.64) Everyone holding on to their keyboards??? I happen to agree with the doc, looking at the numbers.... I don't say that very often, btw. Now for the questions: How do you feel, Robin? How long between your last dose and the blood draw? Had you been on the 3.3 grain from August til now? Some folks are really good converters. So they don't need to add a lot of extra T3. Allowing you to stay on the Armour to keep all the extra trace goodies, I like that idea.... adding the extra T4 to bring that up to a more comfy level.. I like that direction... but the bottom line is how you feel..... Topper () On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:26:56 -0000 "Robin" writes: Hi Everyone-Here are my lates labs as follows: TSH .060 was .80 in Aug., FT3 5.9 range 2.3-4.2, FT4 .77 range .58-1.64 in Aug. .62. I am and was at 3.3 grains at the time of my latest labs and in Aug I was at 1.50 grains. My doc wants me to go back down to 3 grains of Armour and start taking the 25 mcg of Synthroid to get the T4 up and have labs done again in 8 weeks to see whats what. Is anyone here in the same situation with a low T4 and a high T3? Anyone taking a combo of Synthroid and Armour and how do you feel? Any comments are appreciated. Thanks,Robin V. Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Hi Robin, Have you had your B12 checked as a defiency [pernicious anemia] mimics the symptoms of hypo-t? Dawntopper2@... wrote: Now? Aug 3.3 grain 1.5 grain TSH .6 .8 (.3 - 3.0) FT3 .59 (2.3 - 4.2) FT4 .77 .62 (.58 - 1.64) Everyone holding on to their keyboards??? I happen to agree with the doc, looking at the numbers.... I don't say that very often, btw. Now for the questions: How do you feel, Robin? How long between your last dose and the blood draw? Had you been on the 3.3 grain from August til now? Some folks are really good converters. So they don't need to add a lot of extra T3. Allowing you to stay on the Armour to keep all the extra trace goodies, I like that idea.... adding the extra T4 to bring that up to a more comfy level.. I like that direction... but the bottom line is how you feel..... Topper () On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:26:56 -0000 "Robin" writes: Hi Everyone-Here are my lates labs as follows: TSH .060 was .80 in Aug., FT3 5.9 range 2.3-4.2, FT4 .77 range .58-1.64 in Aug. .62. I am and was at 3.3 grains at the time of my latest labs and in Aug I was at 1.50 grains. My doc wants me to go back down to 3 grains of Armour and start taking the 25 mcg of Synthroid to get the T4 up and have labs done again in 8 weeks to see whats what. Is anyone here in the same situation with a low T4 and a high T3? Anyone taking a combo of Synthroid and Armour and how do you feel? Any comments are appreciated. Thanks,Robin V. Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Hi Dawn - No, I havent't had my B12 checked. I did mention it to my doc as a possbility but really did not get much of a response. I am taking extra B12 and B6 with my multi and alternate with a B-complex. Does a B-12 test have to be done with blood or can it be done with saliva? Thanks for you input. Robin V. > > Hi Robin, > Have you had your B12 checked as a defiency [pernicious anemia] mimics the symptoms of hypo-t? > Dawn > >> Now? Aug > 3.3 grain 1.5 grain > > TSH .06 .8 (.3 - 3.0) > FT3 .59 (2.3 - 4.2) > FT4 .77 .62 (.58 - 1.64) > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Hi Dawn - No, I havent't had my B12 checked. I did mention it to my doc as a possbility but really did not get much of a response. I am taking extra B12 and B6 with my multi and alternate with a B-complex. Does a B-12 test have to be done with blood or can it be done with saliva? Thanks for you input. Robin V. > > Hi Robin, > Have you had your B12 checked as a defiency [pernicious anemia] mimics the symptoms of hypo-t? > Dawn > >> Now? Aug > 3.3 grain 1.5 grain > > TSH .06 .8 (.3 - 3.0) > FT3 .59 (2.3 - 4.2) > FT4 .77 .62 (.58 - 1.64) > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Hi Dawn - No, I havent't had my B12 checked. I did mention it to my doc as a possbility but really did not get much of a response. I am taking extra B12 and B6 with my multi and alternate with a B-complex. Does a B-12 test have to be done with blood or can it be done with saliva? Thanks for you input. Robin V. > > Hi Robin, > Have you had your B12 checked as a defiency [pernicious anemia] mimics the symptoms of hypo-t? > Dawn > >> Now? Aug > 3.3 grain 1.5 grain > > TSH .06 .8 (.3 - 3.0) > FT3 .59 (2.3 - 4.2) > FT4 .77 .62 (.58 - 1.64) > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Hi Robin it is a blood test and they don't often check for it I was hypo for years and the girls saw that I was down on B12 before the doc. Then he had me on injections but now I take sublingual and find that is more reliable for me and taking in a multi may not be enough. Go on line and check out what there is on B12 very enlightening. Dawn Robin wrote: Hi Dawn - No, I havent't had my B12 checked. I did mention it to my doc as a possbility but really did not get much of a response. I am taking extra B12 and B6 with my multi and alternate with a B-complex.Does a B-12 test have to be done with blood or can it be done with saliva?Thanks for you input.Robin V.>> Hi Robin,> Have you had your B12 checked as a defiency [pernicious anemia] mimics the symptoms of hypo-t?> Dawn> >> Now? Aug > 3.3 grain 1.5 grain> > TSH .06 .8 (.3 - 3.0)> FT3 ..59 (2.3 - 4.2)> FT4 .77 .62 (.58 - 1.64)> > Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Hi Robin it is a blood test and they don't often check for it I was hypo for years and the girls saw that I was down on B12 before the doc. Then he had me on injections but now I take sublingual and find that is more reliable for me and taking in a multi may not be enough. Go on line and check out what there is on B12 very enlightening. Dawn Robin wrote: Hi Dawn - No, I havent't had my B12 checked. I did mention it to my doc as a possbility but really did not get much of a response. I am taking extra B12 and B6 with my multi and alternate with a B-complex.Does a B-12 test have to be done with blood or can it be done with saliva?Thanks for you input.Robin V.>> Hi Robin,> Have you had your B12 checked as a defiency [pernicious anemia] mimics the symptoms of hypo-t?> Dawn> >> Now? Aug > 3.3 grain 1.5 grain> > TSH .06 .8 (.3 - 3.0)> FT3 ..59 (2.3 - 4.2)> FT4 .77 .62 (.58 - 1.64)> > Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Hi Robin it is a blood test and they don't often check for it I was hypo for years and the girls saw that I was down on B12 before the doc. Then he had me on injections but now I take sublingual and find that is more reliable for me and taking in a multi may not be enough. Go on line and check out what there is on B12 very enlightening. Dawn Robin wrote: Hi Dawn - No, I havent't had my B12 checked. I did mention it to my doc as a possbility but really did not get much of a response. I am taking extra B12 and B6 with my multi and alternate with a B-complex.Does a B-12 test have to be done with blood or can it be done with saliva?Thanks for you input.Robin V.>> Hi Robin,> Have you had your B12 checked as a defiency [pernicious anemia] mimics the symptoms of hypo-t?> Dawn> >> Now? Aug > 3.3 grain 1.5 grain> > TSH .06 .8 (.3 - 3.0)> FT3 ..59 (2.3 - 4.2)> FT4 .77 .62 (.58 - 1.64)> > Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 3 grains =114 mcg of T4..add the 25 mcg and you are at 139mcg of T4 This will also lower your T3 to 27mcg. Compare this to the 125.4 mcg of T4 and 29.7 mcg of T3 and although it will move the numbers I don't see it moving them that much. I am more wondering with a T3 so high and having hypo symptoms if something else is not going on.. Some people do great taking Armour once or twice a day and others need to spread it out more during the day..especially at the higher doses. What happens is your T3 gets really high but because it has uch a short half life it drops really low too..this is where the T4 comes into play as it allows your body to convert to T3 as needed.. Can you list all meds, drugs, herbs etc. and dosing schedule that you are on..include timing? > > > > > > Now Aug > > > > 3.3 grain 1.5 grain > > > > > > > > TSH .06 .8 (.3 - 3.0) > > > > FT3 5.9 (2.3 - 4.2) > > > > FT4 .77 .62 (.58-1.64) > > > > > > > > Everyone holding on to their keyboards??? > > > > > > > > I happen to agree with the doc, looking at the numbers.... I > > > don't say > > > > that very often, btw. > > > > > > Not sure what is happening, but these numbers do not look right to > me.. > > Calculation time..1 grain equals 38 mcg of T4 and 9 of T3.. > > > > > So currently you are taking 125.4 of T4 hormone and 29.7mcg of T3. > > It will take 6 weeks for T4 to reach optimal dose in your body. > > $weeks ago you were on 57mcg of T4 and now you have increased it to > > 125.4 mcg but it takes 6 weeks for T4 to show up optimal in the > > bloodwork.. > > Your FT3 is high though.. are you taking your dose all at once or > > spreading it out during the day? > > > > Kats3boys > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 3 grains =114 mcg of T4..add the 25 mcg and you are at 139mcg of T4 This will also lower your T3 to 27mcg. Compare this to the 125.4 mcg of T4 and 29.7 mcg of T3 and although it will move the numbers I don't see it moving them that much. I am more wondering with a T3 so high and having hypo symptoms if something else is not going on.. Some people do great taking Armour once or twice a day and others need to spread it out more during the day..especially at the higher doses. What happens is your T3 gets really high but because it has uch a short half life it drops really low too..this is where the T4 comes into play as it allows your body to convert to T3 as needed.. Can you list all meds, drugs, herbs etc. and dosing schedule that you are on..include timing? > > > > > > Now Aug > > > > 3.3 grain 1.5 grain > > > > > > > > TSH .06 .8 (.3 - 3.0) > > > > FT3 5.9 (2.3 - 4.2) > > > > FT4 .77 .62 (.58-1.64) > > > > > > > > Everyone holding on to their keyboards??? > > > > > > > > I happen to agree with the doc, looking at the numbers.... I > > > don't say > > > > that very often, btw. > > > > > > Not sure what is happening, but these numbers do not look right to > me.. > > Calculation time..1 grain equals 38 mcg of T4 and 9 of T3.. > > > > > So currently you are taking 125.4 of T4 hormone and 29.7mcg of T3. > > It will take 6 weeks for T4 to reach optimal dose in your body. > > $weeks ago you were on 57mcg of T4 and now you have increased it to > > 125.4 mcg but it takes 6 weeks for T4 to show up optimal in the > > bloodwork.. > > Your FT3 is high though.. are you taking your dose all at once or > > spreading it out during the day? > > > > Kats3boys > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 3 grains =114 mcg of T4..add the 25 mcg and you are at 139mcg of T4 This will also lower your T3 to 27mcg. Compare this to the 125.4 mcg of T4 and 29.7 mcg of T3 and although it will move the numbers I don't see it moving them that much. I am more wondering with a T3 so high and having hypo symptoms if something else is not going on.. Some people do great taking Armour once or twice a day and others need to spread it out more during the day..especially at the higher doses. What happens is your T3 gets really high but because it has uch a short half life it drops really low too..this is where the T4 comes into play as it allows your body to convert to T3 as needed.. Can you list all meds, drugs, herbs etc. and dosing schedule that you are on..include timing? > > > > > > Now Aug > > > > 3.3 grain 1.5 grain > > > > > > > > TSH .06 .8 (.3 - 3.0) > > > > FT3 5.9 (2.3 - 4.2) > > > > FT4 .77 .62 (.58-1.64) > > > > > > > > Everyone holding on to their keyboards??? > > > > > > > > I happen to agree with the doc, looking at the numbers.... I > > > don't say > > > > that very often, btw. > > > > > > Not sure what is happening, but these numbers do not look right to > me.. > > Calculation time..1 grain equals 38 mcg of T4 and 9 of T3.. > > > > > So currently you are taking 125.4 of T4 hormone and 29.7mcg of T3. > > It will take 6 weeks for T4 to reach optimal dose in your body. > > $weeks ago you were on 57mcg of T4 and now you have increased it to > > 125.4 mcg but it takes 6 weeks for T4 to show up optimal in the > > bloodwork.. > > Your FT3 is high though.. are you taking your dose all at once or > > spreading it out during the day? > > > > Kats3boys > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Hi Kat - thanks for helping me figure this out. I appreciate it. I take 2.25 grains in the morning and then .375 in the late afternoon before dinner(sublingually). I take a multi-vitamin with green food concentrates (NOW brand Eco-Green multi-vitamin without iron, it does have .75 mcg of iodine in it) at lunch with an extra 50 mg of B6 and 100 mg of B12. I've just started adding the extra B's. I have taken a regular basic multi with a B-complex prior. I also take fish oil and a cal.mag and vitamin C in the evenings after dinner. I have just started adding the Vitamin C consistantly. Do you think my Free T3 was a bit inflated because I took my Armour 6 hours prior to my labs? Robin > > > > I took my morning Armour dose of 2.25 grains in the morning and had > > my Frees done at 3:30 in the afternoon. The tests should have been > > run last Wed (fasting lab) but a nurse did not mark them off on the > > lab slip. When I found this out on Mon. I had already taken my > > morning dose of Armour and the frees had to be done that day to be > > done for yesterday's doc visit. Do you think the FT3 results is > > skewed because I took my morning dose? By how much do you think? > It > > was 6 hours later that my labs were taken. > > > > So, what you are saying is that my T4 wasn't fully built up on my > > latest dose of 3.3 grains? > > > > Now my doc wants me to go back down to 3 grains and take an added > 25 > > mcg of Synthroid to get the T4 up. > > > > Thanks for your input. > > > > Robin > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Hi Kat - thanks for helping me figure this out. I appreciate it. I take 2.25 grains in the morning and then .375 in the late afternoon before dinner(sublingually). I take a multi-vitamin with green food concentrates (NOW brand Eco-Green multi-vitamin without iron, it does have .75 mcg of iodine in it) at lunch with an extra 50 mg of B6 and 100 mg of B12. I've just started adding the extra B's. I have taken a regular basic multi with a B-complex prior. I also take fish oil and a cal.mag and vitamin C in the evenings after dinner. I have just started adding the Vitamin C consistantly. Do you think my Free T3 was a bit inflated because I took my Armour 6 hours prior to my labs? Robin > > > > I took my morning Armour dose of 2.25 grains in the morning and had > > my Frees done at 3:30 in the afternoon. The tests should have been > > run last Wed (fasting lab) but a nurse did not mark them off on the > > lab slip. When I found this out on Mon. I had already taken my > > morning dose of Armour and the frees had to be done that day to be > > done for yesterday's doc visit. Do you think the FT3 results is > > skewed because I took my morning dose? By how much do you think? > It > > was 6 hours later that my labs were taken. > > > > So, what you are saying is that my T4 wasn't fully built up on my > > latest dose of 3.3 grains? > > > > Now my doc wants me to go back down to 3 grains and take an added > 25 > > mcg of Synthroid to get the T4 up. > > > > Thanks for your input. > > > > Robin > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 I think Topper can explain multidosing much better than I can. I do know you should spread your calcium 4 hrs from the T4..taking a large amount of T3 at once can elevate your T3 really high..but it also drops your T3 really low..I am wondering if regardless of T4 and T3 that if you spread your dose more evenly during the day that your T3 would not spike and you would feel better. Kats3boys > > > > > > I took my morning Armour dose of 2.25 grains in the morning and > had > > > my Frees done at 3:30 in the afternoon. The tests should have > been > > > run last Wed (fasting lab) but a nurse did not mark them off on > the > > > lab slip. When I found this out on Mon. I had already taken my > > > morning dose of Armour and the frees had to be done that day to > be > > > done for yesterday's doc visit. Do you think the FT3 results is > > > skewed because I took my morning dose? By how much do you > think? > > It > > > was 6 hours later that my labs were taken. > > > > > > So, what you are saying is that my T4 wasn't fully built up on > my > > > latest dose of 3.3 grains? > > > > > > Now my doc wants me to go back down to 3 grains and take an > added > > 25 > > > mcg of Synthroid to get the T4 up. > > > > > > Thanks for your input. > > > > > > Robin > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 I think Topper can explain multidosing much better than I can. I do know you should spread your calcium 4 hrs from the T4..taking a large amount of T3 at once can elevate your T3 really high..but it also drops your T3 really low..I am wondering if regardless of T4 and T3 that if you spread your dose more evenly during the day that your T3 would not spike and you would feel better. Kats3boys > > > > > > I took my morning Armour dose of 2.25 grains in the morning and > had > > > my Frees done at 3:30 in the afternoon. The tests should have > been > > > run last Wed (fasting lab) but a nurse did not mark them off on > the > > > lab slip. When I found this out on Mon. I had already taken my > > > morning dose of Armour and the frees had to be done that day to > be > > > done for yesterday's doc visit. Do you think the FT3 results is > > > skewed because I took my morning dose? By how much do you > think? > > It > > > was 6 hours later that my labs were taken. > > > > > > So, what you are saying is that my T4 wasn't fully built up on > my > > > latest dose of 3.3 grains? > > > > > > Now my doc wants me to go back down to 3 grains and take an > added > > 25 > > > mcg of Synthroid to get the T4 up. > > > > > > Thanks for your input. > > > > > > Robin > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Kats - thanks for you suggestion. I am going to break up my daily doses into three instead of two. I really was hoping I wouldn't have to but I think I need to. Maybe I won't get so tired around luchtime if I add another dose. Thanks so much Robin V. > > I think Topper can explain multidosing much better than I can. I do > know you should spread your calcium 4 hrs from the T4..taking a large > amount of T3 at once can elevate your T3 really high..but it also > drops your T3 really low..I am wondering if regardless of T4 and T3 > that if you spread your dose more evenly during the day that your T3 > would not spike and you would feel better. > > Kats3boys > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Kats - thanks for you suggestion. I am going to break up my daily doses into three instead of two. I really was hoping I wouldn't have to but I think I need to. Maybe I won't get so tired around luchtime if I add another dose. Thanks so much Robin V. > > I think Topper can explain multidosing much better than I can. I do > know you should spread your calcium 4 hrs from the T4..taking a large > amount of T3 at once can elevate your T3 really high..but it also > drops your T3 really low..I am wondering if regardless of T4 and T3 > that if you spread your dose more evenly during the day that your T3 > would not spike and you would feel better. > > Kats3boys > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 Hi Robin, I have to say that I go along with Toppers and Kats3boys theory of spacing your Natural Thyroid meds out evenly throughout the day. I take mine 5 times a day: Waking, break, lunch, break, just as I am climbing into bed. With the synthetic stuff, as it is only T4, this is absorbed into the muscles, tissues and blood stream and is converted over when the body needs more Free T4 and Free T3... unfortunately, this conversion of the synthetic stuff does not work for everyone. For me my body got immune to the synthetic stuff and wasn't absorbing it or breaking it down anymore...this after multiple years of taking my Synthroid once in the morning, waiting an hour before eatting or drinking much water on away the day went... By multi dosing on a daily basis, I am immulating what the Thyroid organ is normally doing in its production pattern. Gossimer > > > > I think Topper can explain multidosing much better than I can. I do > > know you should spread your calcium 4 hrs from the T4..taking a > large > > amount of T3 at once can elevate your T3 really high..but it also > > drops your T3 really low..I am wondering if regardless of T4 and T3 > > that if you spread your dose more evenly during the day that your > T3 > > would not spike and you would feel better. > > > > Kats3boys > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 Hi I have been on 1 grain of naturethroid for 2 months now.10/11/09FREE T4 10.2 pmol/L (9.0-19.0)FREE T3 4.5 pmol/L (2.6- 6.0)TSH 0.02 mU/L (0.3-5.0)REVERSE T3 261 pmol/L (140-540)Can someone tell me my ratio?The good news for me is that my transplanted kidney results have got even better. My creatinine is 83 range 40-120 umol/L. Here in Australia anything under 100 is good for me. I have never had a creatinine that good before.My previous result was 89.Here are my labs from 2 months ago taking no medication. Same ranges as above.Free t4 9.9free t3 3.7tsh 0.9I am feeling great. But it is obvious by those results and temps that I can add half a grain if my ratio is ok.Sky Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7. Enter now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 Ferritin is 100. Should I just add some cynomel to my naturethroid. Sky To: RT3_T3 Sent: Thu, 3 December, 2009 8:58:22 PMSubject: Re: lab results our ratio is 17.2 so not horrible though it needs ot be 20 so still a bit on the high RT3 side. As your TSH ois SO supressed I woudl suspect low ferritin.-- Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WVhttp://www.stopthet hyroidmadness. com/http://health. groups.yahoo. com/group/ NaturalThyroidHo rmonesADRENALS/http://health. groups.yahoo. com/group/ RT3_T3/http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/HypoPets/ Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7. Enter now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 Ferritin is 100. Should I just add some cynomel to my naturethroid. Sky To: RT3_T3 Sent: Thu, 3 December, 2009 8:58:22 PMSubject: Re: lab results our ratio is 17.2 so not horrible though it needs ot be 20 so still a bit on the high RT3 side. As your TSH ois SO supressed I woudl suspect low ferritin.-- Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WVhttp://www.stopthet hyroidmadness. com/http://health. groups.yahoo. com/group/ NaturalThyroidHo rmonesADRENALS/http://health. groups.yahoo. com/group/ RT3_T3/http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/HypoPets/ Win 1 of 4 Sony home entertainment packs thanks to Yahoo!7. Enter now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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