Re: Further Akron AA lunacy

[Guest guest]

---I think the sponsee was suppose to give his sponsor his car.---

caenemy

-

-- In 12-step-free@y..., " Bob Marshall " <bmarshall@s...> wrote:

> On the rare occasions I have thoughts of drinking, I always

think

> back to the problems it caused for me, or look at the difficulty it

caused

> in someone else's life.

> Now, if I have one of those fleeting thoughts of going to a

meeting,

> I'm going to check out the Akron AA site:

>

> " One of my all-time favorite stories was told a couple of

years

> ago....

> " He said that when he was new in sobriety he could not

believe how

> good everything was going in his life. His job was great, his home

life was

> unbelievably pleasant and he seemed to be floating on a cloud. He

was,

> however, troubled by how much pain and misfortune his sponsor

seemed to be

> enduring. He did not understand the apparent injustice of it all.

Here his

> sponsor had more sobriety than anyone else around. He was a wise

old man who

> worked with a great many new guys, helping them all trudge that

road of

> happy destiny, yet personally he seemed to be going through a

living hell.

> If anyone deserved some grace, it was he. "

> " So, one night on the way home from a meeting, he decided

to talk to

> his sponsor about it. As he was driving along (his sponsor's car had

> recently died), he was expounding on his own personal and,

admittedly,

> undeserved good fortune and comparing it to what he felt was the

unfair hand

> that his mentor seemed to have been dealt. He confessed a bit of

> embarrassment about it all and told the old-timer that it just did

not seem

> fair. Then he sat there waiting to hear some good old AA wisdom.

The old guy

> just sat quietly staring out the side window. After a long silence,

he

> turned his head and said, 'Maybe God just thinks you're a wuss.' "

>

> Damn, what's the use of living a happy, productive life

when you can

> be a miserable AA oldtimer with lots of problems, far superior to

your

> sponsees who have the gall to actually own a car that *runs*!

> I wonder if this guy dumped his wife because she didn't

recite the

> correct mantra at meetings....

>

> -- Bob Marshall

[Guest guest]

And the wife, she was told to shut-up. Don't puke all over my

meetings---you could kill

someone.

caenemy

> On the rare occasions I have thoughts of drinking, I always

think

> back to the problems it caused for me, or look at the difficulty it

caused

> in someone else's life.

> Now, if I have one of those fleeting thoughts of going to a

meeting,

> I'm going to check out the Akron AA site:

>

> " One of my all-time favorite stories was told a couple of

years

> ago....

> " He said that when he was new in sobriety he could not

believe how

> good everything was going in his life. His job was great, his home

life was

> unbelievably pleasant and he seemed to be floating on a cloud. He

was,

> however, troubled by how much pain and misfortune his sponsor

seemed to be

> enduring. He did not understand the apparent injustice of it all.

Here his

> sponsor had more sobriety than anyone else around. He was a wise

old man who

> worked with a great many new guys, helping them all trudge that

road of

> happy destiny, yet personally he seemed to be going through a

living hell.

> If anyone deserved some grace, it was he. "

> " So, one night on the way home from a meeting, he decided

to talk to

> his sponsor about it. As he was driving along (his sponsor's car had

> recently died), he was expounding on his own personal and,

admittedly,

> undeserved good fortune and comparing it to what he felt was the

unfair hand

> that his mentor seemed to have been dealt. He confessed a bit of

> embarrassment about it all and told the old-timer that it just did

not seem

> fair. Then he sat there waiting to hear some good old AA wisdom.

The old guy

> just sat quietly staring out the side window. After a long silence,

he

> turned his head and said, 'Maybe God just thinks you're a wuss.' "

>

> Damn, what's the use of living a happy, productive life

when you can

> be a miserable AA oldtimer with lots of problems, far superior to

your

> sponsees who have the gall to actually own a car that *runs*!

> I wonder if this guy dumped his wife because she didn't

recite the

> correct mantra at meetings....

>

> -- Bob Marshall

[Guest guest]

At 07:21 PM 6/21/01 -0700, you wrote:

[snip]

>As he was driving along (his sponsor's car had

>recently died), he was expounding on his own personal and, admittedly,

>undeserved good fortune and comparing it to what he felt was the unfair hand

>that his mentor seemed to have been dealt. He confessed a bit of

>embarrassment about it all and told the old-timer that it just did not seem

>fair. Then he sat there waiting to hear some good old AA wisdom. The old guy

>just sat quietly staring out the side window. After a long silence, he

>turned his head and said, 'Maybe God just thinks you're a wuss.' "

Well, what was the guy supposed to say? What is there to say,

really, when some dork is rattling on about how much better his

life is than yours?

[Guest guest]

The old guy

> just sat quietly staring out the side window. After a long silence,

he

> turned his head and said, 'Maybe God just thinks you're a wuss.' "

>

Well, for once I agree - with this AA's sponsor. I had a heart attack

in early sobriety and for many meetings following, an old timer who

had also had one (some 30 years before!) used to make a beeline for,

and then sit next to me. When we " went round the room " , he used to

make a point of sharing how much better HE felt (presumably than I

looked?), how HE gained e.g. promotions at work, how HIS life was so

friggin' great, etc., etc. - all this based on the fact that *HE* was

working the program, unlike (by implication) me. Nice sentiment, Eh?

I think there might be hope for the sponsor :-) At least he expressed

a rather normal human emotion. Fortunately, I am also getting better

and I am " greatful " in a way - It helped me to distinguish between a

real and a virtual disease and relegate a lot of unimportant stuff...

What better reason not to go wasting precious time in an AA meeting.

Mack

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

>

> Well, what was the guy supposed to say? What is there to say,

> really, when some dork is rattling on about how much better his

> life is than yours?

It sounded to me like the sponsee was apologizing for actually

having a life that works.

AA encourages the " I'm not worthy " mindset. It is easier to accept

good fortune and the rewards of hard work when one is not around people who

only judge a person's worth by the length of time they have abstained from

alcohol.

The poor " dork " probably had little else to talk about with his

guru.

-- Bob Marshall

[Guest guest]

At 09:34 PM 6/22/01 -0700, you wrote:

>----- Original Message -----

>

> >

> > Well, what was the guy supposed to say? What is there to say,

> > really, when some dork is rattling on about how much better his

> > life is than yours?

>

> It sounded to me like the sponsee was apologizing for actually

>having a life that works.

> AA encourages the " I'm not worthy " mindset. It is easier to accept

>good fortune and the rewards of hard work when one is not around people who

>only judge a person's worth by the length of time they have abstained from

>alcohol.

> The poor " dork " probably had little else to talk about with his

>guru.

As I mentioned to Pete, my take on it was that the sponsee assumed

there must be some sort of reason why his life was going better. Even

though he was politely expressing I'm-not-worthy bewilderment, there

is some underlying assumption that the Higher Power is treating

the sponsee better for some reason.

I can understand why the sponsor reframed it with a less flattering

spin. It makes just as much sense to say " God thinks you're a wuss "

as to say " God likes you better " (i.e., very little). Maybe it was a

deliberate attempt at creating humility through humiliation, but it

might also have been a plain normal human reaction to an absurd

conversation.

[Guest guest]

Just my 2 cents

> As I mentioned to Pete, my take on it was that the sponsee assumed

> there must be some sort of reason why his life was going better.

Even

> though he was politely expressing I'm-not-worthy bewilderment, there

> is some underlying assumption that the Higher Power is treating

> the sponsee better for some reason.

OF COURSE the sponsee is going to think this way, it has been shoved

down his throat ever since he got to the program! All fortune, good

and bad, flows from the higher power. Just because this is a juvenile

assumption, doesn't mean that people don't believe it. IMO, the

oldtimer *did* believe it too. Suffering is competitive in the

program. The more you can " take " (without drinking) the " better " you

are. Remember, " God never gives us more than we can handle. " (Yes, I

know that is not an " official " quote, but I can't tell you the number

of times I've heard it there).

>

> I can understand why the sponsor reframed it with a less flattering

> spin. It makes just as much sense to say " God thinks you're a wuss "

> as to say " God likes you better " (i.e., very little). Maybe it was

a

> deliberate attempt at creating humility through humiliation, but it

> might also have been a plain normal human reaction to an absurd

> conversation.

I think the sponsee was in the process of trying to reconcile what

he's heard about the HP, and the results he sees regarding " HP " .

People have tried to do this in terms of " God " from the beginning of

time. Some people do not live " right " yet enjoy good fortune, others

have misfortune heaped upon them over and over despite being " good "

people. Job tried to figure it out, and IMO didn't succeed. In fact,

this may be the whole reason behind creating " heaven " because of the

inequities and injustices on earth, at least in some religions (and

now is my time to scoot away from this part of the topic because I

venture into the unknown, did write a college paper on Job however).

I did want to just say that for many, including me, AA was the first

religion that we practiced, or attempted to practice and what the

sponsee was pointing out is a fundamental inconsistency of the

teachings. The sponsor's response is typical. If you can't explain

an inconsistency, it is best to make it into a problem the sponsee

has.

[Guest guest]

, I think you gave a good answer, LOL. Mike.

Re: Further Akron AA lunacy

> At 07:21 PM 6/21/01 -0700, you wrote:

> [snip]

> >As he was driving along (his sponsor's car had

> >recently died), he was expounding on his own personal and, admittedly,

> >undeserved good fortune and comparing it to what he felt was the unfair

hand

> >that his mentor seemed to have been dealt. He confessed a bit of

> >embarrassment about it all and told the old-timer that it just did not

seem

> >fair. Then he sat there waiting to hear some good old AA wisdom. The old

guy

> >just sat quietly staring out the side window. After a long silence, he

> >turned his head and said, 'Maybe God just thinks you're a wuss.' "

>

> Well, what was the guy supposed to say? What is there to say,

> really, when some dork is rattling on about how much better his

> life is than yours?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I guess humility and thankfulness for life's blessings is bad too?

Of course. Humility is the very foundation of all immorality, and thankfulness is on par with mental illness. While the larded ardor of a weak and listless people may think otherwise, all philosophers beyond a child's level of meta-physics realize these things.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

> > says, " All fortune, good

> >and bad, flows from the higher power. "

> >

> >Ummm....all good fortune flows from the higher power, so I was

told; but

> anything bad was

> >my own fault. At least that was what I was told in PA.

>

> I think these statements can be, uh, " reconciled. "

LOL!!!

Actually, I think one of the dynamics in AA is that sometimes when a

person gets sober, good things really do start to happen. Oh, what

fuel that adds to the fire!

But yes, anything that happens bad to you is because of you somehow.

And anything and everything positive is immediately attributed to the

HP. What a trap. Their absolute insistence on this is what turned me

from the program in the long run. But it does seem highly suited to

trivial problems - catching the bus, waking up on time and so on.

[Guest guest]

I hope you are not serious. If this is your opinion, I have learned something about the way you think

What about my post was unclear? Waxing pedantic about my own thought processes was not my purpose, but if you learned my actual opinion than you also know the uncontradicted holding of every higher-functioning Dionysian or Casuist in recorded history. You cannot be such a sheeple that you would countenance the ignominy of those whose ratiocination is superior abasing themselves (so-called humility) before the spawning and swarming masses?

We should express gratitude to those who are best fit to wash our feet? And why would this be?

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

I guess humility and thankfulness for life's blessings is bad too? Mike.

Re: Further Akron AA lunacy

> ----- Original Message -----

>

> >

> > Well, what was the guy supposed to say? What is there to say,

> > really, when some dork is rattling on about how much better his

> > life is than yours?

>

> It sounded to me like the sponsee was apologizing for actually

> having a life that works.

> AA encourages the " I'm not worthy " mindset. It is easier to accept

> good fortune and the rewards of hard work when one is not around people

who

> only judge a person's worth by the length of time they have abstained from

> alcohol.

> The poor " dork " probably had little else to talk about with his

> guru.

>

> -- Bob Marshall

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> > > says, " All fortune, good

> > >and bad, flows from the higher power. "

> > >

> > >Ummm....all good fortune flows from the higher power, so I was

told; but

> >anything bad was

> > >my own fault. At least that was what I was told in PA.

> >

> > I think these statements can be, uh, " reconciled. "

> >

> > Bad fortune flows from your higher power because of something

you did.

> >

> > Good fortune flows from your higher power in spite of all you

did.

> >

> > I can really start going with this - " I should be grateful for

God's

> >Grace [meaning 'unmerited gift - not only did I NOT do anything TO

deserve

> >it, I absolutely DO NOT deserve it - God gives it to me ONLY

because God

> >is good and forgiving], I'm an alcoholic and I'm sober today, and

that's

> >more than I deserve. "

> > " So if I go through the day and at the end of it if I haven't

had a

> >drink, I'm ahead of the game and whatever else happens today, I

can't call

> >it bad fortune, because I'm an alcoholic, and for me to be sober is

a

> >god-damn

> >mother-fucking MIRACLE. "

> >

> > " Thanks for letting me share, it's always an honor and a

priveledge

> >to be allowed to share in a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. "

> >

> >----------

> >http://listen.to/benbradley

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Ben, all

> Yes, absolutely, my post was meant to be as sarcastic as

possible. In

> my last years in AA I would talk that way, in a very strong,

animated

> voice (unusual for me), and some people in the meeting KNEW that I

was

> an atheist and didn't believe a word I was saying, that I was

actually

> mocking the program. Others apparently heard the sarcasm in my

voice,

> but hardly had a clue what was going on.

>

> My apologies to anyone who may have read my earlier post and

taken

> it seriously. Apparently it needed some more explanation, or an

emoticon

> or sonmething.

Maybe this is where I'm going wrong as well. I will attempt to be

either less sarcastic or denote it as such more clearly.

When I was writing about " self-will run riot, " I was writing that in

the spirit of extreme sarcasm. My true position, (that I've written

about before as well) is that my " self-will, " along with a critical

and thinking mind is my greatest asset and resource.

Rita stated my position exactly in her recent post. The related ideas

of " God's Will For Me " and " Self-Will Run Riot " are extremely

repugnant to me at this juncture.

This is one reason why I went from the position of believing that the

program might work for some to my current position that it is

inherently a bad program and ultimately counter-productive because it

attempts to take away from people their greatest resource and gift.

It also attempts to disguise people's use of will as the workings of

the Higher Power. *I* kept myself sober, not an outside entity. Yet

sobriety is always attributed to the HP. This is a lie.

[Guest guest]

Hi again ,

>

> I REALLY am looking for answers as to how the 12 step philosophy

reconciles

> such issues, as I have yet to understand it. (That is why I wrote a

letter

> recently to my sponsor of 10 yrs ago asking such questions.)

In my experience " the program " usually reconciles such things by

blaming the questioner and/or minimizing the importance of the issues.

From what you've written, I think you have been struggling with this

fact. This is exactly why I began to question and ultimately left the

program. I'd be curious to know what your sponsor's response was.

Some AAs retain a sense of decency toward other human beings...but

others do not. Misfortune in the program is usually viewed as

personal failing on the part of the person suffering the misfortune.

As to your other comments, why wouldn't you be upset if some $%# & sat

there and judged your parenting and basically blamed you for the

problems you have been experiencing as if you brought it on yourself?

Contrary to what the program teaches, anger can be a powerful force

for good and you are absolutely correct when you state that some

things just do *suck*. They don't have an " upside, " they are not a

punishment, they are not an " opportunity for growth. " And, as another

member here once told me, I'd like to bitchslap the @#$% who said

those things to you.

My personal circumstance was that I had four miscarriages in a 2 year

period after a 10 year struggle with infertility. The AAs that knew

about this were the least helpful and most judgemental people that

walked the face of the earth. I was told that the losses were " God's

Will for me, " that I was being " taught a lesson " that it was really a

good thing anyway because the babies were bound to be defective...one

woman went as far as implying that they were miscarried due to FAS

when I hadn't had a drink for years. They " reconcile " by *blaming*

the person suffering and by minimizing the issues ( " get off your

pity-pot. At least you can walk. Did you ever think about people who

don't have the use of their legs? " I heard this too).

I don't believe in GAWEH (God As We Understand Him) anymore. The

conceptualization of the Higher Power through AA is too narrow and IMO

too *personal*. I have heard AAs give credit to GAWEH for every

possible thing imaginable--what a funny little god, running around

doing everyone's bidding and throwing crazy obstacles at us because of

our shortcomings.

[Guest guest]

.. PS You threw around as many ten dollar words as you could get your spell-check program to find for you, but you revealed something else about yourself-your spell check could not save you from using the wrong version of the word "then".

You are clearly untutored in reader-repsonse theory and have not yet gleaned that, when deconstructed in the socioeconomic text-based memes, then shifts its signifier-status to than. But this is all beside the point. How can you not comprehend that Homo Faber can never properly be placed in parity with Homo sapiens? Have you read any Derridda? Or attempted deconstructing the paradigm of agape? (Or do you think it always comes back to the demotic Eros?)

Can you cite one higher-functioning prestidigitator who endorses humility cum absement, or gratitude?

In sum: Have you understood one word I have written?

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

-Hello , I'm

netty

and caenemy (the one that gets pissed off) I went to AA

for help --my whole family was in trouble--me and my husband were

literally killing ourselves with use and the kids not far behind.

Everyone I talked to said AA if we were ever going to make it. So

this time I went ,I did what 'they' said to do---my whole family's

future depended on our success in this program--so I thought. I was

willing to die for my kids--sorta did--just the wrong way. Well alot

of crazy shit went down - me and the kids got out and are trying to

get better, dad didn't make it. One of the first books I read after I

craweled away and could start to take up reading again was - The Real

AA, by Ken Ragge. I was so releaved that I wasn't crazy - that book

(bless his heart) and my anger (rage) has saved my life. I took that

program and those steps and internalized them--and literally got body-

slamed. The book kinda helps explain some of that process and some

history about AA that threw a different view on things. All

literature I had read up to that point had been only 12-step grouper

views. So anyway that's enough for now... If you do start

getting pissed or hurt by what some groupers have said--that means

life is flowing through---those are just my thoughts. Oh-- one more

thing, most groupers mean well--and don't mean to hurt others (only

parrotting what they've been taught.) Like me, someday they might

grieve and cry over the ones they helped feed to the wolfs. It's the

ones who know how this works and yet continue with the

slaughter....it's those assholes whom I'm pissed

at.

netty

-- In 12-step-free@y..., " klc youlater " <castaway41@h...> wrote:

> LOL!! - I really wasnt riled up, honestly, just asking a question

to

> clarify a point of view, which was done.

>

> No apologies needed - even if it was meant serious, it would not

have

> angered me. I was just trying to comprehend where people are coming

from

> when they are serious about such a viewpoint, which was not the

case here

> anyway.

>

> I REALLY am looking for answers as to how the 12 step philosophy

reconciles

> such issues, as I have yet to understand it. (That is why I wrote a

letter

> recently to my sponsor of 10 yrs ago asking such questions.)

>

> This will sound SO program, but for me it is my truth - no one can

upset me

> unless I let them.

> ,

> ~I will not take my thoughts for granted,

> for they may be my only guide.

>

>

>

> >From: " Bob Marshall " <bmarshall@s...>

> >Reply-To: 12-step-free@y...

> >To: <12-step-free@y...>

> >Subject: Re: Re: Further Akron AA lunacy

> >Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:12:00 -0700

> >

> >Ben --

> >

> > I think most of the members of this list realized you

were being

> >sarcastic and would not want you to change your posting style.

> > The person who took offense is new to the list and should

probably

> >have read a few more posts before getting riled up. From the sound

of her

> >reply, she is as fed up with steppist self-flagellation as we are

and will

> >find this list very supportive.

> >

> >-- Bob Marshall

> >

> >

> >----- Original Message -----

> >From: " Ben Bradley " <benbradley@m...>

> ><snip>

> > > My apologies to anyone who may have read my earlier post and

taken

> > > it seriously. Apparently it needed some more explanation, or an

emoticon

> > > or sonmething.

> >

> >

>

>

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

I hope you are not serious. If this is your opinion, I have learned something about the way you think. Mike.

Re: Further Akron AA lunacy

I guess humility and thankfulness for life's blessings is bad too? Of course. Humility is the very foundation of all immorality, and thankfulness is on par with mental illness. While the larded ardor of a weak and listless people may think otherwise, all philosophers beyond a child's level of meta-physics realize these things. --Mona--

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 6/24/01 8:01:28 AM US Eastern Standard Time,

> mikdan7@h... writes:

>

>

> > . PS You threw around as many ten dollar words as you could get

your

> > spell-check program to find for you, but you revealed something

else about

> > yourself-your spell check could not save you from using the wrong

version

> >

>

> You are clearly untutored in reader-repsonse theory and have not yet

gleaned

> that, when deconstructed in the socioeconomic text-based memes, then

shifts

> its signifier-status to than. But this is all beside the point.

How can you

> not comprehend that Homo Faber can never properly be placed in

parity with

> Homo sapiens? Have you read any Derridda? Or attempted

deconstructing the

> paradigm of agape? (Or do you think it always comes back to the

demotic Eros?)

>

> Can you cite one higher-functioning prestidigitator who endorses

humility cum

> absement, or gratitude?

>

> In sum: Have you understood one word I have written?

Hi Mona,

*NO*! 10-to-1 very few others on the list here have " attempted

deconstructing the paradigm of agape " either. Or if they did, maybe

they weren't even aware of the fact! Can you please be more

specific...examples...and a little less wordy? I am interested in

these topics. The program is all about humility and powerlessness and

I ended up rejecting these ideas on my own, but would be interested in

finding a disciplined discussion of it.

PS: here is a link to www.dictionary.com. Did you really mean

" juggler " ?

http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=prestidigitator

[Guest guest]

Thank you for confirming what I was hoping was a mistake. You think you are better than everyone? Have a nice life, and I am glad I don't know you. Mike. PS You threw around as many ten dollar words as you could get your spell-check program to find for you, but you revealed something else about yourself-your spell check could not save you from using the wrong version of the word "then". LOL I am glad I don't know you, but I am glad I know what a phony you are. Or maybe it was just a mistake-an oversight that could happen to any 'higher-functioning' whatever you think you are. Mike.

Re: Further Akron AA lunacy

I hope you are not serious. If this is your opinion, I have learned something about the way you thinkWhat about my post was unclear? Waxing pedantic about my own thought processes was not my purpose, but if you learned my actual opinion than you also know the uncontradicted holding of every higher-functioning Dionysian or Casuist in recorded history. You cannot be such a sheeple that you would countenance the ignominy of those whose ratiocination is superior abasing themselves (so-called humility) before the spawning and swarming masses? We should express gratitude to those who are best fit to wash our feet? And why would this be? --Mona--

[Guest guest]

All I understand is you are trying to confuse with a barrage of words

You are quite mistaken. Off-list I have received several emails assuring me that a number of readers understand quite exactly what my polysyllabic theses convey. Your gender-absed confusion regarding ovularian postulates does not invalidate them -- which is to say, merely because you read but do not comprehend my missives, does not thereby render them febrile.

Now, they may, indeed, be febrile, but cannot be demonstrated to be so until you, the reader, proclaim avuncular; capice?

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: <ahicks@s...>

> <snip>

> > They " reconcile " by *blaming*

> > the person suffering and by minimizing the issues ( " get off your

> > pity-pot. At least you can walk. Did you ever think about people

who

> > don't have the use of their legs? " I heard this too).

>

> Or, as I once read:

>

> " I cried because I had no feet, until I met a man who had no

penis. "

>

> (Can't remember where, or I would credit the author.)

>

> -- Bob Marshall

<LOL>!

What was that guy's problem??!!! I don't feel a lack at all...

[Guest guest]

Mike, she's playing with you like a cat with a mouse.

> > > In a message dated 6/24/01 8:01:28 AM US Eastern Standard Time,

> > > mikdan7@h... writes:

> > >

> > >

> > > > . PS You threw around as many ten dollar words as you could

get

> > your

> > > > spell-check program to find for you, but you revealed

something

> > else about

> > > > yourself-your spell check could not save you from using the

wrong

> > version

> > > >

> > >

> > > You are clearly untutored in reader-repsonse theory and have not

yet

> > gleaned

> > > that, when deconstructed in the socioeconomic text-based memes,

then

> > shifts

> > > its signifier-status to than. But this is all beside the point.

> > How can you

> > > not comprehend that Homo Faber can never properly be placed in

> > parity with

> > > Homo sapiens? Have you read any Derridda? Or attempted

> > deconstructing the

> > > paradigm of agape? (Or do you think it always comes back to the

> > demotic Eros?)

> > >

> > > Can you cite one higher-functioning prestidigitator who endorses

> > humility cum

> > > absement, or gratitude?

> > >

> > > In sum: Have you understood one word I have written?

> >

> > Hi Mona,

> >

> > *NO*! 10-to-1 very few others on the list here have

" attempted

> > deconstructing the paradigm of agape " either. Or if they did,

maybe

> > they weren't even aware of the fact! Can you please be more

> > specific...examples...and a little less wordy? I am interested in

> > these topics. The program is all about humility and powerlessness

and

> > I ended up rejecting these ideas on my own, but would be

interested in

> > finding a disciplined discussion of it.

> >

> >

> >

> > PS: here is a link to www.dictionary.com. Did you really mean

> > " juggler " ?

> >

> > http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=prestidigitator

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> I feel no particular inadequacy, either. But Bob's pithy quotation

does give

> a new dimension to " penis envy. " Penis gratitude -- fitting for XA

members.

>

> --Mona--

And for most women, no? (Not meaning to offend any gays or lesbians on

the list.)

[Guest guest]

Mona,

Where did you learn this stuff? It's so far over my head I tip

over. I'm impressed, and my dictionary is wore out. My husband was

always trying to get me to learn new words and I find it helps to get

the brain working in parts I never realized I had. So thank-you-----

netty

> In a message dated 6/25/01 6:09:21 AM US Eastern Standard Time,

> mikdan7@h... writes:

>

>

> > She is full of shit. She cannot admit she made a grammar error,

and she

> > cannot, of course prove she is right. I didn't know she was like

this, but

> >

>

> Your inability to transcend dichotomous, text-based Strunk-Whitism

is

> perturbing at best. The orations giving rise to your paeans to

> self-mutiliation of the psyche, are the issue at hand. Not one of

the many

> giants of self-aware theodicy, from Horatio Alger to Martha

, embraces

> your meekness-cum-virtue leitmotif. Yet you persist.

>

> Why?

>

> Perhaps if you pondered this facile theory at the level I intend

you to, you

> would surmount your difficulty. Try C. Manson on the Skeltering of

> Psychodrama, or J. W. Gacy on Pugilistics.

>

> --Mona--

>

> --Mona--