Guest guest Posted April 27, 1999 Report Share Posted April 27, 1999 Hi Doug, Personally I am not in the least offended by the " idolatry " in AA. If all this " make a teapot " a higher power worked, than I wouldn't object to it. But since it is usually a bait and switch routine to lead newcomers to " God " as AA understand God. From my cold humanist side(I have that side too,) it all just sounds so absurd. But again if the real deal was laid out clearly in the beginning in AA, as in " this is what we believe " I guess ina free society I have no objection to it. Court order this nonsense, or disguise it as medicine or science, and I am completely opposed to it. And, to concede your viewpoint, if it offends one's own religious values, as it seems to yours coercion is equally wring. As fro the political correctness question, the term is so overused as too be useless imo. Do I think that there is value in thinking before I speak as not to offend? Absolutely. Do I think that in a free society there is a room for a great variety of ideas on morality, absolutely. Is a society which values religious freedom ( and the right to no religion) being politically correct or, well, simply a free society. On the other hand there are absurd extremes to " political correctness " as well. A=A, for example, whatever your own ideas may be. I read yesterday that math teachers were accepting any old answer on tests in some cases because this was that students truth. This is absurd imo. Academic freedom has been curtailed as well under the pc banner, and that's equally wrong. And no, I don't agree with watching everything that comes out of mouth to censor it for pc ears, that nuts as well. But a caring sensitivity makes for a better society, however. Finally, (I promise) I think the movement toward multiculturalism, and inevitability with globalism I would think, is a move forward for humanity in many ways. Again, I look for truth from anywhere and everywhere, so I am thrilled by all the choices. However, there is the danger of losing all sense of reason here too, however. I cannot condone a practice like child labor because it is " cultural " to a specific country. Conclusion: the middle road seems best. Taking the best, and always avoiding extremes. Perhaps that why enjoy this list so much. There are so many viewpoints to ponder, including yours, Doug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 1999 Report Share Posted April 28, 1999 Hi , I know I'm entering this conversation late, but I'm throwing my two cents in anyway. I think that values are relative to culture, but truths are not. this is not, a reason imo, to demean the concept of values. On the face of it, a value is what considers (or a community) believes to be of great worth. Because societies are fluid, I think that values, therefore are fluid as well. And what one society deems " of value " may be repugnant to another. Just because values are relative, however, does not necessarily diminish their importance. Of course there is the reality that a community may value that which is bigoted, narrow minded and evil. The US once valued the institution of slavery for example. Now we do not. Truth, I believe is unchanging. This is what makes the search for truth so fought with difficulty. For example, I belive it a truth that human beings thrive best in an atmosphere of liberty. I don't believe that this is relative. So while I can accept that one society values a particular political approach, while another may not, I cannot respect tyranny anywhere. Thanks everyone for this thought provoking topic. We never sat around in AA diners chatting about truth vs. values. This sure is a refreshing change. from so many other " recovery " lists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 1999 Report Share Posted April 28, 1999 ands Judith, I am just getting a chance to enter this value/truth debate. Hows this? I agree with both of you. The well known disparity of Jefferson writing the Declaration of Independence on one hand, and owning slaves on the other has already been considered. I think that I have from time to time made an idpl, so to speak out of enligtenment thinking. Today, however, I see the enlightenment thinkers as expressing truth ( life and liberty) on hand, but also accepting the subjagation of many people on the other. Beyond the first line, of course, the document is a responce to England's colonail policy. I guess what I am getting at is that Enlightenment thinkers did not have any monopoly on truth. Thosegreat principles were expressed for thousands of years, with more or less eloqunece perhaps, in relgious political, and philohical writnings from at least a s long as people have been recording thier thoughts. Tonight at my church, for example, a member gave a short seppech about the primacy of " Western thought " and used the Declaration as evidence. It really gave me pause. I think that, having allowed myself to expolre as ideas of a great variety of cutures, that the right to life and liberty are human, and not westernPerhaps in this Global age, we would do well to state them again as a human family, not just as 'western thinkers. " sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2000 Report Share Posted March 27, 2000 Your opinion is one that is commonly accepted, and my statements to you are meant with no disrespect whatsoever. Having said that, however, I must point out that your opinion is demonstrably wrong. I demonstrate your error with this statement; 1 + 1 = 2. Thge truth of that statement cannot be denied in any language or conceptuality. I realize that mathematics is not philosophy. However, the truths I mentioned in my first post- concerning the Declaration Of Independence- were actually the end result, the apex, of thousands of years of philosophical thought. The greek's architecture was not simply art; it encompassed the seeking of truth through the incorporation of mathemetics. They saw the truth of mathematics as proof of the existence of " objective " beauty- that is, that beauty exists outside of our judgement, that it has an existence independent of us and we only perceive what already exists. I tend to lean towards this explanation of our reality as opposed to subjective beauty. Again, it is TRUTH that 1+1 = 2. The Declaration Of Independence is this " objective beauty " concept brought to fruition, while our Constitution obtains beauty- true beauty- through the incorporation of the Declaration's truths in it's architecture. When our " values " do not incorporate truth- as AA's do not- we become ugly. You can see this demonstrated in the repeated court losses concerning AA- they are symptoms of it's deficiency. The violation of the truths of the Dec. of Ind. has also produced symptoms- a grossly bloated prison system. The death penalty has contributed to growing resentment of the minorities that it has been targeted towards, resulting in serious riffs between our respective races and the police which enforce those violations. ==================================== Judith Stillwater wrote: I guess we all see things differently; to me there is not one truth. The truth looks different to different people, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2000 Report Share Posted March 28, 2000 But, there IS a conflict- a glaring one. The Declaration Of Independence states that it is a TRUTH that we are endowed with the UNALIENABLE right to life. My " values " are vehemently opposed to the death penalty, being largely reliant on acceptance of the Declaration. Anyone's " values " that support the death penalty are WRONG. Unless we are to denounce the Declaration Of Independence, the death penalty is in violation of the TRUTH and I believe that this is an example of differing values excluding the truth. Remember, Hitler had " values " . ============================== wally wrote: > So the idea that different people can have different values doesn't necessarily exclude the idea of truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2000 Report Share Posted March 28, 2000 Now, Doug, I just finish sticking up for you and you immediately start slamming my German ancestors. Actually, Germans came over here during WWII and contributed significantly to our architecture. As far as " going along " , as I understand it, Hitler stole the election that put him in power through force, deception and murder. He was not a freely elected leader. I believe it's a tricky read to figure out the extent of the German people's support of Nazi activities, but I tend to disbelieve the majority were " quite happy to go along with them " . I KNOW it is accurate to lay blame at the doorstep of the Nazi party, after that I'm more cautious. douglas houston wrote: Hitler sure had values, and the mean ignorant streak in the German masses were quite happy to go along with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2000 Report Share Posted April 23, 2000 One of the nicest guys I ever knew had this set of values: 1) Avoid pain 2) Be humane 3) Have fun Obviously these can be variously interpreted, but a basically decent human being can do a lot with them. (This same guy, in the pre-AIDS era, had a business card printed specially for women: " Nice guys finish last. " Most women didn't get it.) --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) >Those are some pretty good core values. >I guess for me, I can't say that I have the urge for community >service >or political involvement. The rest seem to be along the lines of my >values as well, but to the list I would add: >1.) Physical fitness - exercise has been such a wonderful addition to >my life, that it's a practice I definitely want to uphold. >2.) Have fun. I can forget this one at times, but it's a very >important one. No more workaholic lifestyle for me! >3.) Treat others with respect, and live with personal integrity. >Apple > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Before you buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2000 Report Share Posted April 23, 2000 Judith, Is the order in which you listed them the order of priority in which you act on them? I'm a little uncomfortable with community service coming first, because I have know too many people who have sacrificed family and coworkers for the " greater good " of the community, for people that they don't know and never see. I truly believe that charity begins at home. --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) > >> You know Judith, this may be a useful thing for me too, to write >down >> my own values. Would you be willing to post your values list, or >> perhaps e-mail your list to me privately? > >I'm comfortable posting my values. Actually, it makes me feel good >that you are interested in hearing them! > >* Community service, political involvement. > >* Active non-violence: respecting others by allowing them to express >themselves, listening to them, and believing what they say. (even >when >I disagree). This does NOT include situations where I feel >threatened. in that case, I'll run away if I can. If I can't escape, >you can damn well bet that, even if the person who tries to hurt me >succeeds, he or she will regret having tried in the first place. > >* I don't look for blame; I prefer to simply identify problems and >potential solutions. (That's what I do here, in critcizing AA: I'm >trying to figure out exactly what the problems are, so I can find >solutions.) > >* Negotiation and compromise. this requires that I know my own >starting position, and advocate for myself. > >* Art, creativity; seeing things with an eye to finding beauty in the >mundane. > >* Children's rights; this can be extended to include the rights of >any >marginalized or otherwise vulnerable group of people. > >* Self-sufficiency: financial self-sufficiency specifically; but in >general, I take responsibility for getting what I want out of life. > > >>I'd really be interested in reading it. I have a habit of >compromising some of my values when I'm >> in a love relationship, and I don't like this aspect of myself. >It's >> not so much a conscious compromise, but I literally forget what my >> values are. >> >> As some of you may know, I'm currently in a relationship with a man. >> On >> one hand, it's a much needed change for me, and I'm having a load >of >> fun, on the other hand, I'm noticing a familiar dating pattern >> resurfacing, which I don't like. >> >> Seems that when I'm in a love relationship, the man I'm with has a >> sort >> of narcotic effect on me. The more I'm attracted to him, and the >more >> satisfying the sex, the stronger the narcotic effect. I litterally >> turn dumb, quiet, subservient and insecure at times. I really don't >> like this. How can I make it stop? I heard marriage will do it >(ha >> ha), but I don't want to go there... > >I think that what happens is, the initial attraction--sex, >companionship, fun--evolves into commitment, which then evolves into >a >new family. and THAT'S where the trouble starts! that's why hubby and >I see a family therapist, so we can learn to recognize when we are >re-enacting the roles of adult man and woman that we learned from our >screwed up, but for the most part well-meaning, parents. We learned >good things too; it's recognizing the good vs. the evil that's >tricky. >even trickier to turn that recognition into action, through learning >new behavior. > >even now, I frequently long to be in total control of my life (that >is, I long to be single). But as my wise, departed sister once said: >when you're single you want to be married, and when you're married >you >want to be single. The grass is always greener over the septic tank, >to steal one of Erma Bombeck's book titles. > >> FYI, I've returned to social drinking, without ANY problems >> whatsoever. >> How incredibly laughable that I lived in such fear of Devil Drink >(as >> Ken R. so aptly calls it), for 7 years. Actually, in the beginning, >> it >> was Devil Drink, but somehow, my body doesn't seem to be >metabolizing >> alcohol the same way that it used to. There are no compulsions to >get >> drunk, no out of control behavior. I feel as normal as toast in the >> way >> my body reacts to alcohol... hmmmm... how could that be? > >well it certainly can't have anything to do with AA being wrong >because as we all know, AA is the best thing since sliced soup > >Judith > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Your high school sweetheart-where is he now? With 4.4 million alumni >already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance you'll >find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at: >http://click./1/3139/1/_/4324/_/956497495/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Before you buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2000 Report Share Posted April 23, 2000 Hey Kayleigh I was wondering what my core values are... thankyou for telling me, I recognized them instantly! Thought that guy's card was great! P. > >Those are some pretty good core values. > >I guess for me, I can't say that I have the urge for community > >service > >or political involvement. The rest seem to be along the lines of my > >values as well, but to the list I would add: > >1.) Physical fitness - exercise has been such a wonderful addition to > >my life, that it's a practice I definitely want to uphold. > >2.) Have fun. I can forget this one at times, but it's a very > >important one. No more workaholic lifestyle for me! > >3.) Treat others with respect, and live with personal integrity. > >Apple > > > > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- > Before you buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2000 Report Share Posted April 23, 2000 no. i haven't gotten around to prioritizing yet and they are somewhat flexible. and values should be at least a little bit different from person to person, shouldn't they? if only for the sake of keeping conversation interesting. judith > >> You know Judith, this may be a useful thing for me too, to write > >down > >> my own values. Would you be willing to post your values list, or > >> perhaps e-mail your list to me privately? > > > >I'm comfortable posting my values. Actually, it makes me feel good > >that you are interested in hearing them! > > > >* Community service, political involvement. > > > >* Active non-violence: respecting others by allowing them to express > >themselves, listening to them, and believing what they say. (even > >when > >I disagree). This does NOT include situations where I feel > >threatened. in that case, I'll run away if I can. If I can't escape, > >you can damn well bet that, even if the person who tries to hurt me > >succeeds, he or she will regret having tried in the first place. > > > >* I don't look for blame; I prefer to simply identify problems and > >potential solutions. (That's what I do here, in critcizing AA: I'm > >trying to figure out exactly what the problems are, so I can find > >solutions.) > > > >* Negotiation and compromise. this requires that I know my own > >starting position, and advocate for myself. > > > >* Art, creativity; seeing things with an eye to finding beauty in the > >mundane. > > > >* Children's rights; this can be extended to include the rights of > >any > >marginalized or otherwise vulnerable group of people. > > > >* Self-sufficiency: financial self-sufficiency specifically; but in > >general, I take responsibility for getting what I want out of life. > > > > > >>I'd really be interested in reading it. I have a habit of > >compromising some of my values when I'm > >> in a love relationship, and I don't like this aspect of myself. > >It's > >> not so much a conscious compromise, but I literally forget what my > >> values are. > >> > >> As some of you may know, I'm currently in a relationship with a man. > >> On > >> one hand, it's a much needed change for me, and I'm having a load > >of > >> fun, on the other hand, I'm noticing a familiar dating pattern > >> resurfacing, which I don't like. > >> > >> Seems that when I'm in a love relationship, the man I'm with has a > >> sort > >> of narcotic effect on me. The more I'm attracted to him, and the > >more > >> satisfying the sex, the stronger the narcotic effect. I litterally > >> turn dumb, quiet, subservient and insecure at times. I really don't > >> like this. How can I make it stop? I heard marriage will do it > >(ha > >> ha), but I don't want to go there... > > > >I think that what happens is, the initial attraction--sex, > >companionship, fun--evolves into commitment, which then evolves into > >a > >new family. and THAT'S where the trouble starts! that's why hubby and > >I see a family therapist, so we can learn to recognize when we are > >re-enacting the roles of adult man and woman that we learned from our > >screwed up, but for the most part well-meaning, parents. We learned > >good things too; it's recognizing the good vs. the evil that's > >tricky. > >even trickier to turn that recognition into action, through learning > >new behavior. > > > >even now, I frequently long to be in total control of my life (that > >is, I long to be single). But as my wise, departed sister once said: > >when you're single you want to be married, and when you're married > >you > >want to be single. The grass is always greener over the septic tank, > >to steal one of Erma Bombeck's book titles. > > > >> FYI, I've returned to social drinking, without ANY problems > >> whatsoever. > >> How incredibly laughable that I lived in such fear of Devil Drink > >(as > >> Ken R. so aptly calls it), for 7 years. Actually, in the beginning, > >> it > >> was Devil Drink, but somehow, my body doesn't seem to be > >metabolizing > >> alcohol the same way that it used to. There are no compulsions to > >get > >> drunk, no out of control behavior. I feel as normal as toast in the > >> way > >> my body reacts to alcohol... hmmmm... how could that be? > > > >well it certainly can't have anything to do with AA being wrong > >because as we all know, AA is the best thing since sliced soup > > > >Judith > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > >Your high school sweetheart-where is he now? With 4.4 million alumni > >already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance you'll > >find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at: > >http://click./1/3139/1/_/4324/_/956497495/ > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > > > > > > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- > Before you buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2000 Report Share Posted April 23, 2000 Yes, I certainly hope that values will differ from person to person. Yet I hope that they will promote life and health for everyone. --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) >no. i haven't gotten around to prioritizing yet and they are >somewhat flexible. and values should be at least a little bit >different from person to person, shouldn't they? if only for the sake >of keeping conversation interesting. > >judith > > >> >> You know Judith, this may be a useful thing for me too, to write >> >down >> >> my own values. Would you be willing to post your values list, or >> >> perhaps e-mail your list to me privately? >> > >> >I'm comfortable posting my values. Actually, it makes me feel good >> >that you are interested in hearing them! >> > >> >* Community service, political involvement. >> > >> >* Active non-violence: respecting others by allowing them to >express >> >themselves, listening to them, and believing what they say. (even >> >when >> >I disagree). This does NOT include situations where I feel >> >threatened. in that case, I'll run away if I can. If I can't >escape, >> >you can damn well bet that, even if the person who tries to hurt >me >> >succeeds, he or she will regret having tried in the first place. >> > >> >* I don't look for blame; I prefer to simply identify problems and >> >potential solutions. (That's what I do here, in critcizing AA: I'm >> >trying to figure out exactly what the problems are, so I can find >> >solutions.) >> > >> >* Negotiation and compromise. this requires that I know my own >> >starting position, and advocate for myself. >> > >> >* Art, creativity; seeing things with an eye to finding beauty in >the >> >mundane. >> > >> >* Children's rights; this can be extended to include the rights of >> >any >> >marginalized or otherwise vulnerable group of people. >> > >> >* Self-sufficiency: financial self-sufficiency specifically; but >in >> >general, I take responsibility for getting what I want out of life. >> > >> > >> >>I'd really be interested in reading it. I have a habit of >> >compromising some of my values when I'm >> >> in a love relationship, and I don't like this aspect of myself. >> >It's >> >> not so much a conscious compromise, but I literally forget what >my >> >> values are. >> >> >> >> As some of you may know, I'm currently in a relationship with a >man. >> >> On >> >> one hand, it's a much needed change for me, and I'm having a load >> >of >> >> fun, on the other hand, I'm noticing a familiar dating pattern >> >> resurfacing, which I don't like. >> >> >> >> Seems that when I'm in a love relationship, the man I'm with has >a >> >> sort >> >> of narcotic effect on me. The more I'm attracted to him, and the >> >more >> >> satisfying the sex, the stronger the narcotic effect. I >litterally >> >> turn dumb, quiet, subservient and insecure at times. I really >don't >> >> like this. How can I make it stop? I heard marriage will do it >> >(ha >> >> ha), but I don't want to go there... >> > >> >I think that what happens is, the initial attraction--sex, >> >companionship, fun--evolves into commitment, which then evolves >into >> >a >> >new family. and THAT'S where the trouble starts! that's why hubby >and >> >I see a family therapist, so we can learn to recognize when we are >> >re-enacting the roles of adult man and woman that we learned from >our >> >screwed up, but for the most part well-meaning, parents. We >learned >> >good things too; it's recognizing the good vs. the evil that's >> >tricky. >> >even trickier to turn that recognition into action, through >learning >> >new behavior. >> > >> >even now, I frequently long to be in total control of my life >(that >> >is, I long to be single). But as my wise, departed sister once >said: >> >when you're single you want to be married, and when you're married >> >you >> >want to be single. The grass is always greener over the septic >tank, >> >to steal one of Erma Bombeck's book titles. >> > >> >> FYI, I've returned to social drinking, without ANY problems >> >> whatsoever. >> >> How incredibly laughable that I lived in such fear of Devil >Drink >> >(as >> >> Ken R. so aptly calls it), for 7 years. Actually, in the >beginning, >> >> it >> >> was Devil Drink, but somehow, my body doesn't seem to be >> >metabolizing >> >> alcohol the same way that it used to. There are no compulsions >to >> >get >> >> drunk, no out of control behavior. I feel as normal as toast in >the >> >> way >> >> my body reacts to alcohol... hmmmm... how could that be? >> > >> >well it certainly can't have anything to do with AA being wrong >> >because as we all know, AA is the best thing since sliced soup >> > >> >Judith >> > >> > >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >--- >> >Your high school sweetheart-where is he now? With 4.4 million >alumni >> >already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance you'll >> >find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at: >> >http://click./1/3139/1/_/4324/_/956497495/ >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >--- >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- >> Before you buy. > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >You take good care of yourself, how about your planet? It's >tough to be healthy when your environment isn't. Find out >what you can do to protect your planet and yourself at ENN.com, >the Environmental News Network. >http://click./1/2798/1/_/4324/_/956544207/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Before you buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2000 Report Share Posted April 23, 2000 > Yes, I certainly hope that values will differ from person to person. Yet I hope that they will promote life and health for everyone. > --- > Kayleigh hear hear! judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2000 Report Share Posted April 24, 2000 I guess we all see things differently; to me there is not one truth. The truth looks different to different people, and I am more interested in hearing different versions of the truth than I am in assigning a value judgment of " true " or " false " to someone's perspective. If I am interpreting the messages below correctly, this makes me a wimp or a hedonist or some such thing. Very well, your truth about me is that I am a wimpy hedonist who doesn't have the character to commit to one set of values, developed by someone other than myself, for the rest of my life. AA's truth about me was that I have a lifelong incurable disease, treatable only by meetings. I reject both ideas in favor of my own self-perception: I am a human being trying to make sense of an awful lot of conflicting information, do what is expected of me, and have a little fun before I die. Before I posted my values I knew I was taking the risk of having someone belittle them. I think I am probably beginning to take this a little too personally. My values are my values; they're not up for debate. and if you dislike me because of my values then at least you've made your decision based on an honest picture of what is most important to me. Judith > > > > Yes, I certainly hope that values will differ from person to > > > person. > > > Yet I hope that they will promote life and health for everyone. > > > > --- > > > > Kayleigh > > > > > > hear hear! > > > > > > judith > > ______________________________________________________________________ __ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2000 Report Share Posted April 24, 2000 Judith -- I read your values and would go along with any of them. Please don't take my stuff about the el4evation of individual " values " above universal " Truth " personally, it's abstract not particular -- your values are what you live by. But we can't all live by them. A value only derives content from its truth function. The truth is one and infinite, the values are multiple and finite. I admire anyone who is workng things out for themselves rather than being force fed dogma,lies, half-truths, and moral blackmail by the step Nazis. yrs Doug. >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Re: Core Values >Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 19:38:06 -0000 > >I guess we all see things differently; to me there is not one truth. >The truth looks different to different people, and I am more >interested in hearing different versions of the truth than I am in >assigning a value judgment of " true " or " false " to someone's >perspective. If I am interpreting the messages below correctly, this >makes me a wimp or a hedonist or some such thing. Very well, your >truth about me is that I am a wimpy hedonist who doesn't have the >character to commit to one set of values, developed by someone other >than myself, for the rest of my life. AA's truth about me was that I >have a lifelong incurable disease, treatable only by meetings. I >reject both ideas in favor of my own self-perception: I am a human >being trying to make sense of an awful lot of conflicting >information, >do what is expected of me, and have a little fun before I die. > >Before I posted my values I knew I was taking the risk of having >someone belittle them. I think I am probably beginning to take this a >little too personally. My values are my values; they're not up for >debate. and if you dislike me because of my values then at least >you've made your decision based on an honest picture of what is most >important to me. > >Judith > > > > > > > Yes, I certainly hope that values will differ from person to > > > > person. > > > > Yet I hope that they will promote life and health for everyone. > > > > > --- > > > > > Kayleigh > > > > > > > > hear hear! > > > > > > > > judith > > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >__ > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at >http://www.hotmail.com > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2000 Report Share Posted April 25, 2000 -- You are ringing the Liberty Bell LOUD and CLEAR -- couldn't agree more -- Political correctness is insane in its " all values are equal " shit -- Hitler sure had values, and the mean ignorant streak in the German masses were quite happy to go along with them. In AA of course your HP can be anything from the teapot, to the Lord Jehovah, Edgar J. Hoover, Mickey Mouse, or the Prince of Darkness -- pluralism gone insane and given the clean bill of moral health by a Politically Correct administration that doesn't give a bugger so long as shopping remains the religion of the people. When it comes to values, we've sure got some thinking to do, but executing people ain't right (especially when they're not guilty), so I'll go along with that one for a start. Doug. UK ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2000 Report Share Posted April 25, 2000 Well, there's a problem here. Hesitating to be taken for another WJC, I will nevertheless say that to the framers, " we " probably meant " white men, " and perhaps even " literate white male landowners. " Minorities (particularly blacks and native Americans) and women are liable to be sensitive to this distinction. Perhaps Rita has some insight to offer as to whether " we " equalled " literate Christian white male landowners " at that time. --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) >But, there IS a conflict- a glaring one. The Declaration Of Independence >states that it is a TRUTH that we are endowed with the UNALIENABLE right >to life. My " values " are vehemently opposed to the death penalty, being >largely reliant on acceptance of the Declaration. Anyone's " values " that >support the death penalty are WRONG. Unless we are to denounce the >Declaration Of Independence, the death penalty is in violation of the >TRUTH and I believe that this is an example of differing values >excluding the truth. Remember, Hitler had " values " . >============================== >wally wrote: >> >So the idea that different people can have different values doesn't >necessarily exclude the idea of truth. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Get 3 months FREE and a chance to WIN a trip to London, England when >you receive, manage and pay your bills online with Paytrust.com! >Stamps, checks and bills in your mailbox are history. Enroll Today! >http://click./1/3556/1/_/4324/_/956674362/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Before you buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2000 Report Share Posted April 25, 2000 I stand corrected, -- Hitler and his crowd did do a simple and very ugly job of bullying, killing, and lying their way to power (with a little help from dear old industrial Kapitalismus of course). " Going along with Hitler " is putting it wrong -- the Nazis were the only brand left in the politix market. There is an analogy, I believe, between the acceptability of Nazism to Krupp et al. and the acceptability of the 12 steps to our political and economic HPs. The 12 steps suits a " New World Order " in which responsibility devolves onto the individual as the ultimate unit of consumption and " choice " . AA etc offers a cult of utter social quietism in which all the ills of the world as the individual experiences them are functions of the Disease and any concept of social responsibility is emasculated by being exclusively internalised. Adolf would have loved it. Anyway, thanks for making me think, and reminding me of the need for precision and discrimination in discussion and argument (though these aren't required in the intellectual Disneyland of the step Nazis). yours, Doug. > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Re: Core Values >Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:57:49 -0500 > >Now, Doug, I just finish sticking up for you and you immediately start >slamming my German ancestors. Actually, Germans came over here during >WWII and contributed significantly to our architecture. As far as " going >along " , as I understand it, Hitler stole the election that put him in >power through force, deception and murder. He was not a freely elected >leader. I believe it's a tricky read to figure out the extent of the >German people's support of Nazi activities, but I tend to disbelieve the >majority were " quite happy to go along with them " . I KNOW it is accurate >to lay blame at the doorstep of the Nazi party, after that I'm more >cautious. > >douglas houston wrote: > Hitler sure had values, and the mean ignorant streak in the German >masses were quite happy to go along with them. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2000 Report Share Posted April 25, 2000 Hitler was not elected Chancellor. However, his selection for the post was ratified afterwards by an overwhelming majority of Germans. While the election was not free, i.e. a choice between candidates, there was a huge turnout. --- Kayleigh Zz zZ |\ z _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_ |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) >Now, Doug, I just finish sticking up for you and you immediately start >slamming my German ancestors. Actually, Germans came over here during >WWII and contributed significantly to our architecture. As far as " going >along " , as I understand it, Hitler stole the election that put him in >power through force, deception and murder. He was not a freely elected >leader. I believe it's a tricky read to figure out the extent of the >German people's support of Nazi activities, but I tend to disbelieve the >majority were " quite happy to go along with them " . I KNOW it is accurate >to lay blame at the doorstep of the Nazi party, after that I'm more >cautious. > >douglas houston wrote: > Hitler sure had values, and the mean ignorant streak in the German >masses were quite happy to go along with them. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >SHOPPING for DEALS? The merchants at BuyItOnline.com are offering up >to 30% OFF great gear, wear, gadgets and more, now through April 15, >2000. Real stores. Real Deals. Real Easy. Go get something great! >http://click./1/3025/1/_/4324/_/956677969/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Before you buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2000 Report Share Posted April 25, 2000 Hi Judith My values are my values; they're not up for debate. and if you dislike me because of my values then at least you've made your decision based on an honest picture of what is most important to me. Judith You're quite right. The only decent thing to do is to figure yourself out before the others and stand by it. (I'm probably talking Scandinavian here, but the meaning should be visible.) I couldn't agree more with your general statement, and I think Kayleigh has got a supplementary point as well. Bjørn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2000 Report Share Posted April 26, 2000 Hi , First off, let me be clear; I am not arguing. I sometimes fear that point-counterpoint emails are interpreted that way by one participants, and I want to be clear that I hear you. Having said that, weeelll.... " I think that values are relative to culture, but truths are not. this is not, a reason imo, to demean the concept of values. " But what ARE " values " ? I believe it a rather artificial term used towards damaging ends. Right now there is a BoyScout before the Supreme Court, having been expelled from that organization on the basis of " values " . In all our long history " values " , phrased in one concept or another, have been used to justify racism, the inquisition, genocide and slavery. Why did the Germans execute the Jews? Their " values " were in danger from the Jewish " contamination " of their culture- of their values. Why were people put on the rack during the Inquisition? Because of differing religious beliefs, or values. I believe the word " values " is used nowadays to give an undeserved weight to the thing that it is used to describe- opinions. Do not call a hatred of homosexuals, atheists, catholics, jews, etc. etc. " values " - those are opinions. On the same note, love of country, a belief in fairness and an intolerance of bigotry are not " values " , but opinions. And an opinion is either right or wrong. Whether we are able to recognize it or not, there is always a right or a wrong opinion of each and every subject in our existence. 1+1 equals either 2 or 3. I believe all of our questions in life can be answered with that kind of mathematical precision- it's either right or wrong. All that keeps us from the answers is a lack of sufficient technology. If we don't blow ourselves up, one day we will have ALL the answers, there will be permanent prosperity, an end to disease, poverty, and polution. But we will never come up with the answers unless we accept nothing short of TRUTH. Values which do not conform to truth are a danger to our evolution. The present day values of our society allow the taking of life through executions, the loss of liberty through a prison system which confines those who have committed no actual harm to others and roadblocks to the pursuit of happiness through the aggregate of those actions. These are all violations of TRUTHS which our foremost philosophers sought to codify into a living law through the formation of the United States of America through rebellion, truths which have been sacrificed to " values " , values that just seem to always favor the white man and put the black man in jail. SEAN P CASHIN wrote: > > Hi , > > I know I'm entering this conversation late, but I'm throwing my two cents > in anyway. I think that values are relative to culture, but truths are > not. this is not, a reason imo, to demean the concept of values. On the > face of it, a value is what considers (or a community) believes to be of > great worth. Because societies are fluid, I think that values, therefore > are fluid as well. And what one society deems " of value " may be > repugnant to another. Just because values are relative, however, does > not necessarily diminish their importance. > > Of course there is the reality that a community may value that which is > bigoted, narrow minded and evil. The US once valued the institution of > slavery for example. Now we do not. > > Truth, I believe is unchanging. This is what makes the search for truth > so fought with difficulty. For example, I belive it a truth that human > beings thrive best in an atmosphere of liberty. I don't believe that > this is relative. So while I can accept that one society values a > particular political approach, while another may not, I cannot respect > tyranny anywhere. > > Thanks everyone for this thought provoking topic. We never sat around in > AA diners chatting about truth vs. values. This sure is a refreshing > change. from so many other " recovery " lists. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > You have a voice mail message waiting for you at iHello.com: > http://click./1/3555/1/_/4324/_/956802104/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2000 Report Share Posted April 27, 2000 SEan, I go along with your preacher that Western thought values liberty etc more than eastern -- Eastern thought tends to be heavily fatalistic and tends to support highly unequal social structures. Personally, I see freedom as being central to the Judaeo-Xtian tradition -- Isaiah 58: 6 - 7, and elsewhere, and think W. B. Yeats wrote brilliantly in favour of West against East in his late poem " The Statues " [not trying start a religious argument here by the way!!!]-- we cannot be passive Buddha-slugs and pursue an active interest in liberty. Doug. > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >CC: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Re: Core Values >Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:59:57 -0400 > > > > ands Judith, > >I am just getting a chance to enter this value/truth debate. Hows this? >I agree with both of you. The well known disparity of Jefferson writing >the Declaration of Independence on one hand, and owning slaves on the >other has already been considered. I think that I have from time to time >made an idpl, so to speak out of enligtenment thinking. Today, however, I >see the enlightenment thinkers as expressing truth ( life and liberty) on >hand, but also accepting the subjagation of many people on the other. >Beyond the first line, of course, the document is a responce to England's >colonail policy. I guess what I am getting at is that Enlightenment >thinkers did not have any monopoly on truth. Thosegreat principles were >expressed for thousands of years, with more or less eloqunece perhaps, in >relgious political, and philohical writnings from at least a s long as >people have been recording thier thoughts. > >Tonight at my church, for example, a member gave a short seppech about >the primacy of " Western thought " and used the Declaration as evidence. >It really gave me pause. I think that, having allowed myself to expolre >as ideas of a great variety of cutures, that the right to life and >liberty are human, and not westernPerhaps in this Global age, we would do >well to state them again as a human family, not just as 'western >thinkers. " > >sean ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2000 Report Share Posted April 27, 2000 Dear , There's some real thought (properly tempered with feeling)in your letter, and I'm obliged to you for your fine distinction between " values " and " opinions " -- everything in our moral currency seems to have been debased by our Great Society (and I'm talking UK as much as US here) -- morality is reduced to a pick 'n' mix bag of opinions in a culture that only wants us to shop till we drop. Opinions ... values ... truths ... TRUTH (but the last is going to far for some and I'll keep my religious capitals to myself). Respect -- . > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Re: Core Values >Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:15:16 -0400 > >Hi , >First off, let me be clear; I am not arguing. I sometimes fear that >point-counterpoint emails are interpreted that way by one participants, >and I want to be clear that I hear you. Having said that, weeelll.... > > " I think that values are relative to culture, but truths are not. this >is not, a reason imo, to demean the concept of values. " >But what ARE " values " ? I believe it a rather artificial term used >towards damaging ends. Right now there is a BoyScout before the Supreme >Court, having been expelled from that organization on the basis of > " values " . In all our long history " values " , phrased in one concept or >another, have been used to justify racism, the inquisition, genocide >and slavery. Why did the Germans execute the Jews? Their " values " were >in danger from the Jewish " contamination " of their culture- of their >values. Why were people put on the rack during the Inquisition? Because >of differing religious beliefs, or values. I believe the word " values " >is used nowadays to give an undeserved weight to the thing that it is >used to describe- opinions. Do not call a hatred of homosexuals, >atheists, catholics, jews, etc. etc. " values " - those are opinions. On >the same note, love of country, a belief in fairness and an intolerance >of bigotry are not " values " , but opinions. And an opinion is either >right or wrong. Whether we are able to recognize it or not, there is >always a right or a wrong opinion of each and every subject in our >existence. 1+1 equals either 2 or 3. I believe all of our questions in >life can be answered with that kind of mathematical precision- it's >either right or wrong. All that keeps us from the answers is a lack of >sufficient technology. If we don't blow ourselves up, one day we will >have ALL the answers, there will be permanent prosperity, an end to >disease, poverty, and polution. But we will never come up with the >answers unless we accept nothing short of TRUTH. Values which do not >conform to truth are a danger to our evolution. The present day values >of our society allow the taking of life through executions, the loss of >liberty through a prison system which confines those who have committed >no actual harm to others and roadblocks to the pursuit of happiness >through the aggregate of those actions. These are all violations of >TRUTHS which our foremost philosophers sought to codify into a living >law through the formation of the United States of America through >rebellion, truths which have been sacrificed to " values " , values that >just seem to always favor the white man and put the black man in jail. > > >SEAN P CASHIN wrote: > > > > Hi , > > > > I know I'm entering this conversation late, but I'm throwing my two >cents > > in anyway. I think that values are relative to culture, but truths are > > not. this is not, a reason imo, to demean the concept of values. On >the > > face of it, a value is what considers (or a community) believes to be of > > great worth. Because societies are fluid, I think that values, >therefore > > are fluid as well. And what one society deems " of value " may be > > repugnant to another. Just because values are relative, however, does > > not necessarily diminish their importance. > > > > Of course there is the reality that a community may value that which is > > bigoted, narrow minded and evil. The US once valued the institution of > > slavery for example. Now we do not. > > > > Truth, I believe is unchanging. This is what makes the search for truth > > so fought with difficulty. For example, I belive it a truth that human > > beings thrive best in an atmosphere of liberty. I don't believe that > > this is relative. So while I can accept that one society values a > > particular political approach, while another may not, I cannot respect > > tyranny anywhere. > > > > Thanks everyone for this thought provoking topic. We never sat around >in > > AA diners chatting about truth vs. values. This sure is a refreshing > > change. from so many other " recovery " lists. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > You have a voice mail message waiting for you at iHello.com: > > http://click./1/3555/1/_/4324/_/956802104/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2000 Report Share Posted April 27, 2000 Book recommendation: The Guru Papers--Masks of Authoritarian Power, by Kramer & Alstad. It reads like a textbook to a certain extent, but your description of Eastern vs. Western thought reminded me of the authors' position. Judith > SEan, > I go along with your preacher that Western thought values liberty etc more > than eastern -- Eastern thought tends to be heavily fatalistic and tends to > support highly unequal social structures. Personally, I see freedom as being > central to the Judaeo-Xtian tradition -- Isaiah 58: 6 - 7, and elsewhere, > and think W. B. Yeats wrote brilliantly in favour of West against East in > his late poem " The Statues " [not trying start a religious argument here by > the way!!!]-- we cannot be passive Buddha-slugs and pursue an active > interest in liberty. > Doug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2000 Report Share Posted April 27, 2000 , , all who have participated in this discussion: I also enjoy the discussion a lot. And , even though I got a bit defensive about one of your posts, I hope I communicated the fact that I *do* see your point. I'm an American, and I agree that the Constitution, Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence, all these documents contain ideas that I consider truths about how people should treat each other. I think my point is best illustrated by a theory called symbolic interaction. What that means is that all language, whether written, spoken, or expressed through any other means (example: paper currency), is a collection of symbols. These symbols have meaning because the speaker ascribes a certain meaning to them. In a homogeneous culture/society, where everyone looks the same and believes in the same ideas, there is far less disagreement on the meaning of symbols. This, I think, is what people long for when they think of the " good old days. " But in a country like the US, disagreements on the meaning of symbols are plentiful. Language is powerful; the way we talk about something influences the way it is treated. That's the origin of the political correctness movement. Example: an idea like the Danish Drug Users Union would probably not get very far in requesting funding from any US legislature, local state or national, because the AA abstinence/disease model (also called the Minnesota model, much to my chagrin) is so widely accepted. If I were to publicly champion a local chapter of the Drug Users Union, my character would be attacked. No ifs, ands or buts about it. Unions, even for working people, are somewhat out of vogue; unions for drug users would almost certainly not be deemed acceptable. and , an interesting side note regarding your mathematical example of truth, 1+1=2. I got an email from someone much more knowledgeable about math than myself, who pointed out that numerical symbols are also subject to definition. Two examples, quoted from this email (my thanks to the person who sent it): " 1. 1+1=0 if mod 1 arithmetic is used 2. 1+1=10 for base 2 arithmetic (which is the assumed base of this medium, computers) " and now, I must stop writing for a while, because a disgustingly large pile of data entry awaits me... Judith > Hi , > First off, let me be clear; I am not arguing. I sometimes fear that > point-counterpoint emails are interpreted that way by one participants, > and I want to be clear that I hear you. Having said that, weeelll.... > > " I think that values are relative to culture, but truths are not. this > is not, a reason imo, to demean the concept of values. " > But what ARE " values " ? I believe it a rather artificial term used > towards damaging ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2000 Report Share Posted April 29, 2000 Pete, Thanks -- forgot that Bill W. was an acid-head -- was he involved in the Leary et al " LSD cures alcoholism " thing? It's a fascinating story the old acid trail -- looks like the whole psychedelic era was a CIA experiement gone wrong -- or right??? Madness in high places. Yrs Doug. http://www.geocities.com/bouglaf/aa.html >From: watts_pete@... >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: RE: Re: Core Values >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 03:35:16 -0000 > >Hey Doug > >Didntya know Charlie M, like Bill W, thought LSD gave you >valuable spiritual experiences? > >Helter Skelter! > >P. > > > > , > > My page has been added as a link by the opposition on the >disturbingly > > offbeat NA pages of Keeley at > > > > http://intervention.org/blindedbyscience.htm > > > > You can Email Charlie Manson from there -- he's obviously highly >regarded by > > the 12-steppers -- and go to other highly nefarious link-homes!! > > I hope this case of the purloined web-page is a slight case of " if >you can't > > beat 'em join 'em " . > > thanks, > > Yrs, > > Doug. > > > > http://www.geocities.com/bouglaf > > > > >From: " Arroyo " <arroyoh@h...> > > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups > > >To: <12-step-freeegroups> > > >Subject: RE: Re: Core Values > > >Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 19:47:07 -0500 > > > > > >Hot date with AA. LOL > > > > > > > > > Re: Re: Core Values > > > > > >Dear , > > > > > >Thanks for raising my self-esteem by several points. > > > > > >You deserve a laugh at > > > > > >http://www.geocities.com/bouglaf/aa.html > > > > > >Yours > > >Doug > > > > > > > > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >__ > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at >http://www.hotmail.com > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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