Re:He's Back In Jail

[Guest guest]

Hi

Also, she sees her children as an extension of herself. I, for example,

was parentified. I was chosen by my mother to be her caretaker. BPs live

their life through their children.

- Edith

cascorsam@... wrote:

> Edith

>

> What need do her children fulfill? Will she discard them too?

>

> Jean

[Guest guest]

Hi

My mother was a VERY low-functioning BP with NPD traits, too. I never

was hugged or felt love from her. I don't think she knew what the word

'love' meant. I was to be obedient (ie, perfect) and I was to serve her

which I did until I walked out the door on my 18th birthday,

ill-prepared to life in the real world. And, within 2 years, I married a

BP. We have over 600 NonBP adult children of BPs on our ModOasis list.

Most of them have never felt motherly love. I think it has to do with

how high-functioning the BP mother is and whether or not the BP mother

has 'lucid moments'.

- Edith

cascorsam@... wrote:

> Kelley

>

> If I am to understand Edith. People, even people my daughter has had a

> history with are useless to her if she no longer needs them for anything. So,

> basically they are nothing more than 2 bit users. And if she cannot USE the

boys

> to gain anything from anyone, what happens to them? She is worse than her

> husband. She's their biological mother, she should have some love for them,

some

> emotional need.

>

> Jean

[Guest guest]

Hi

BPs split their children into all good and all bad. I was the all good

child (lots of the time because I tried hard to be perfect). My sister

was the all bad child. Our BP mother continuously threatened to send my

sister to the orphanage. When she threatened that, I felt bad because I

wanted to go to the orphanage, too. My sister was luckier than I,

however, in that she got to spend every summer with g'pa and g'ma

whereas I didn't have even one day off during my first 18 years.

- Edith

cascorsam@... wrote:

> Kelley

>

> If I am to understand Edith. People, even people my daughter has had a

> history with are useless to her if she no longer needs them for anything. So,

> basically they are nothing more than 2 bit users. And if she cannot USE the

boys

> to gain anything from anyone, what happens to them? She is worse than her

> husband. She's their biological mother, she should have some love for them,

some

> emotional need.

>

> Jean

[Guest guest]

Jean

I think that sounds about right but deep down she is so confused and not right

she isnt thinking of it that way. In her mind those are her children, so they

are her belongings, so they will always have some value until they are old

enough to stand up for themselves, by that time though they may develop thier

own BPD traits.

You have to always remember with these split situation the BPD only remembers

the good or the bad of the person. You are a bad person because you are taking

away all her possessions from her. The kids may have only been a nusiance to

the dirt bag and so now will get better attention from her. I hope she doesnt

blame the children for him being gone or blame them for anything at least as

young as they are but only she could answer that question for you at this

moment.

has she contacted you since he was put back into jail?

Hugs

Kelley

Re: Re:He's Back In Jail

Kelley

If I am to understand Edith. People, even people my daughter has had a

history with are useless to her if she no longer needs them for anything. So,

basically they are nothing more than 2 bit users. And if she cannot USE the

boys

to gain anything from anyone, what happens to them? She is worse than her

husband. She's their biological mother, she should have some love for them,

some

emotional need.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Oh Jean

My heart is breaking with you. He is standing up for himself though. He is

telling people what is going on in his life. If the daycare and the school

would file reports of neglect and possible abuse it would go a long way to

getting those kids help.

Hugs

Kelley

Re: Re:He's Back In Jail

Edith

My older grandson, is probably the all bad one in my daughter's eyes.

He never listens to her and , the younger has actually been his Mama's

boy since he was born. But now that the baby is here; my daughter has

allowed the husband to punish and isolate both boys and the baby is the golden

girl.

I really believe my daughter has deep down resented the boys all along.

They are inter racial. The baby is blonde, blue eyed. I'm really afraid they

are being punished JUST because they exist. I have never seen my little

grandson

look as sad as he did yesterday when I saw him at daycare. He asked if I was

coming to take him home with me and I told him his Mommy wouldn't allow me

to, but as soon as she said it was okay, I would let him stay with me. He was

very sad. I told him I was very sorry that Will had been punishing him and he

sadly said (almost despondently), " It's OK " . He broke my heart.

Jean

Jean

[Guest guest]

That is really sad. I am sorry for that Jean. Why would she stay there when

she has her own place? Guess she is over there making you out to be a monster!

Hugs

kelley

Re: Re:He's Back In Jail

Kelley

Not at all. But my son told me she is not at home; her car is not in her

driveway. I know last night from what the police told me she was staying at

her

mother-in-law's house. The woman who taught her children to steal movies and

CDs because she couldn't give them money for them. always refered to

her as " white trash " . Now they're best friends.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Next time she says that tell her lets go to therapy, you and I together and fix

this?

Kelley

Re: Re:He's Back In Jail

Kelley

I think (and I hope I'm right) that she will definitely blame me alone. She

told me a few days ago that she doesn't want me around the boys because I

would screw them up, the way I screwed her up, that she knows there's

something

wrong with her and it must be my fault. So, I don't have a chance.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Jean

Our new visitatin agreement for my DH's son is worded so that he has the right

to take him to see any kind of doctor he needs to see but the mother has a right

to the info and vise versa, however in the legal custody area both parents have

to agree to psyche help of any kind and if they cannot agree the mother gets to

say what happens putting us in a bind as we were definitely taking the kid to

see someone. Like i said earlier she is just using the kid to cause pain for

the father she really doesnt care how hurt the kiddo is.

Hgus

Kelley

Re: Re:He's Back In Jail

Kelley

I don't see her talking to me any time soon. I did tell that day that if she

felt she was " screwed " up, why didn't she go to see someone; she changed the

subject.

Jean

[Guest guest]

I call that borderline behavior!

>

> > My cousin says (and this is an accurate assessment) when she

doesn't need me

> > she doesn't just severe the realtionship a little, she wants to

get rid of me

> > COMPLETELY like I am something very distatseful. This explains,

why she

> > doesn't want me having a relationship with my grandsons, it's

like I make her sick

> > to see or have around AT ALL. She wants to pretend I don't

exist as long as

> > she doesn't NEED me.

> >

> > What do you call that kind of behavior?

> >

> > Jean

>

> Hi

>

> Its called 'splitting'. Its one of the main defense mechanisms

that BPs

> use. Other defense mechanisms BPs use include denial,

rationalization,

> and projection. See chapter 3 of SWOE.

>

> Following is a definition of *splitting* from the book _I Hate You,

> Don't Leave Me_ by Jerry Kreisman, M.D. From page 10:

>

> " The world of a BP, like that of a child, is split into heroes

and

> villains. A child emotionally, the BP cannot tolerate human

> inconsistencies and ambiguities; he cannot reconcile another's

good and

> bad qualities into a constant coherent understanding of another

person.

> At any particular moment, one is either Good or EVIL. There is no

> in-between; no gray area....people are idolized one day; totally

> devalued and dismissed the next.

> " Normal people are ambivalent and can experience two

contradictory

> states at one time; BPs shift back and forth, entirely unaware of

one

> feeling state while in the other.

> " When the idealized person finally disappoints (as we all do,

sooner

> or later) the borderline must drastically restructure his

> one-dimensional conceptionalization. Either the idol is banished

to the

> dungeon, or the borderline banishes himself in order to preserve

the

> all-good image of the other person.

> " Splitting is intended to shield the BP from a barrage of

> contradictory feelings and images and from the anxiety of trying

to

> reconcile those images. But splitting often achieves the opposite

> effect. The frays in the BP's personality become rips, and the

sense of

> his own identity and the identity of others shifts even more

> dramatically and frequently. "

>

> - Edith

> Gal Friday / WelcomeToOz Family of NonBP Email Support Groups

[Guest guest]

I don't think the issue is as cut and dried as you make it sound.

Yes, bps are users, but they don't mean to be in the sense you're

talking about.

The hole within the bp is so huge, that the bp is frantic is their

search to fill it. If the current person in their life isn't what

they " need " at the moment, that person is discarded--not because the

bp hates them, or anything other than because the bp is consummed

with filling the black hole and frantically grabbing whatever is at

hand that fills that particular black hole.

Bps are really good at knowing what makes people tick. As such, it

is almost like the more people they have in a " stable " (or circling

around them, almost like an atom) that they can draw from when that

person meets their needs, the better they like it.

The problem is, of course, that non-bps like you and I resent being

picked up and discarded on a seeming whim, but the bp simply doesn't

view it that way. Because relationships are so hard for a bp to

figure out, they think it is okay (really, down deep they do) to

treat people in this fashion.

After all, from their point of view, people are around them in order

to meet their needs.

[Guest guest]

and Edith--

I have to disagree. I don't believe bps try to live their lives

through their children at all.

Why?

Simply because bps are too self-centered to think that way. They

are trying desperately to control their own lives and be independent

while still grabbing from those around them what they need

emotionally.

I think the behavior you are seeing has a different motive. With

bps, it's all about how they view themselves and their world. The

bp genuinely loves their children . . . almost TOO much; yet, that

very thing scares the heck out of them.

They may manipulate their children in order to manipulate other

people in their lives to get what they want, but to say they are

trying to live vicariously through their children is the opposite of

how they feel inside.

>

> > Edith

> >

> > What need do her children fulfill? Will she discard them too?

> >

> > Jean

[Guest guest]

You know, bps may see black and white, but there are many, many non-

bp families that have favorites and absolutely do the same thing

you're suggesting below. I'm not sure I would say this is a

particular bp trait, peculiar just to them. I see too much of it

elsewhere.

> Edith

>

> My older grandson, is probably the all bad one in my

daughter's eyes.

> He never listens to her and , the younger has actually

been his Mama's

> boy since he was born. But now that the baby is here; my daughter

has

> allowed the husband to punish and isolate both boys and the baby

is the golden girl.

> I really believe my daughter has deep down resented the boys all

along.

> They are inter racial. The baby is blonde, blue eyed. I'm really

afraid they

> are being punished JUST because they exist. I have never seen my

little grandson

> look as sad as he did yesterday when I saw him at daycare. He

asked if I was

> coming to take him home with me and I told him his Mommy wouldn't

allow me

> to, but as soon as she said it was okay, I would let him stay with

me. He was

> very sad. I told him I was very sorry that Will had been

punishing him and he

> sadly said (almost despondently), " It's OK " . He broke my heart.

>

> Jean

>

> Jean

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Now THAT is typical bp thinking. I, too, thought that about my mom

for many, many years. But, if you wait long enough, you'll be the

good one again, to.

> Kelley

>

> I think (and I hope I'm right) that she will definitely blame me

alone. She

> told me a few days ago that she doesn't want me around the boys

because I

> would screw them up, the way I screwed her up, that she knows

there's something

> wrong with her and it must be my fault. So, I don't have a chance.

>

> Jean

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Touche!

-

-- In WTOParentsOfBPs , cascorsam@a... wrote:

> Kelley

>

> I don't see her talking to me any time soon. I did tell that day

that if she

> felt she was " screwed " up, why didn't she go to see someone; she

changed the

> subject.

>

> Jean

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

My sister and I have both had problems - my sister less so than I

(thanks to g'ma). We both married BP/NPD combos. I studied psychology in

the days before BPD appeared in the DSM (pre-1980). I first learned

about BPD on the Internet where I met Randi with her start-up NonBP list

in 1996. SWOE was published 2 years later. It took me 7 years to get my

head on straight and to get my voice. I didn't have a therapist. You

might want to read Lawson's book, Understanding The Borderline Mother

(UBM) which was pubished in 2000. You might find a copy through your

local library. Its a life-saver for those of us on the ModOasis list.

The final word isn't in yet about the genetic vs environmental issue.

And, there might be different kinds of BPs?? The effects of having an

undiagnosed/untreated BP mother is like the brainwashing that occurs

when one is a member of a cult. Its like we need to be de-programmed.

- Edith

cascorsam@... wrote:

> Edith

>

> That must have been horrible to have had to be with her ALL the time. But,

> you are normal and that gives me hope for my grandsons. Maybe it is more

> genetic than environmental. Is your sister okay or does she have problems?

>

> Jean

[Guest guest]

You're right, .

But an N will live try to through the children. My former husband, an N, uses

the kids to appear better to other people than he is. He sends them to the

" right schools, " which he calls boarding school (read: program) so no one knows

the kids have problems. They must justify his existence by getting all A's. He

said to them, " If you get A's you can do whatever you want. " He doesn't care

what kind of people they turn out to be as long as they " look good. "

Meredith

Re:He's Back In Jail

and Edith--

I have to disagree. I don't believe bps try to live their lives

through their children at all.

Why?

Simply because bps are too self-centered to think that way. They

are trying desperately to control their own lives and be independent

while still grabbing from those around them what they need

emotionally.

I think the behavior you are seeing has a different motive. With

bps, it's all about how they view themselves and their world. The

bp genuinely loves their children . . . almost TOO much; yet, that

very thing scares the heck out of them.

They may manipulate their children in order to manipulate other

people in their lives to get what they want, but to say they are

trying to live vicariously through their children is the opposite of

how they feel inside.

[Guest guest]

Well I am sure that wont last long, they certainly cannot live up to her

expectations.

Hugs

Kelley

Re: Re:He's Back In Jail

Kelley

I think she is staying at his mother's because she hates being alone. And,

she doesn't see

the kids as company.

Jean

[Guest guest]

That would be my guess. A lot of it depends on what she gets from

the relationship.

I have watched my bp dtr use and use and use guys; then, when they

fail to meet whatever her perceived need is, she unceremoniously

dumps them.

-- In WTOParentsOfBPs , cascorsam@a... wrote:

>

>

> So, does that mean the husband will also be discarded at some

point? (That

> is if and when he gets out of jail this time).

>

> Jean

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

thanks, Meredith, for pointing out it is more a narcisistic trait.

I was thinking of that when reading the post.

> You're right, .

>

> But an N will live try to through the children. My former

husband, an N, uses the kids to appear better to other people than

he is. He sends them to the " right schools, " which he calls

boarding school (read: program) so no one knows the kids have

problems. They must justify his existence by getting all A's. He

said to them, " If you get A's you can do whatever you want. " He

doesn't care what kind of people they turn out to be as long as

they " look good. "

>

> Meredith

> Re:He's Back In Jail

>

>

>

>

> and Edith--

>

> I have to disagree. I don't believe bps try to live their lives

> through their children at all.

>

> Why?

>

> Simply because bps are too self-centered to think that way.

They

> are trying desperately to control their own lives and be

independent

> while still grabbing from those around them what they need

> emotionally.

>

> I think the behavior you are seeing has a different motive.

With

> bps, it's all about how they view themselves and their world.

The

> bp genuinely loves their children . . . almost TOO much; yet,

that

> very thing scares the heck out of them.

>

> They may manipulate their children in order to manipulate other

> people in their lives to get what they want, but to say they are

> trying to live vicariously through their children is the

opposite of

> how they feel inside.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think you've got that right.

And, additionally, even though a bp has what I believe to be a

tremendous capacity to love, maybe even more so than non-bps (I know

it doesn't LOOK that way, but it is true), it is a circular

situation because kids need, too, and the bp resents the needs of

the kids while at the same time loving them desperately.

Remember, love isn't always a feeling. I love my husband, but I

don't always have the emotion of love, but the commitment, which I

believe that true love is, is there.

> Kelley

>

> I think she is staying at his mother's because she hates being

alone. And,

> she doesn't see

> the kids as company.

>

> Jean

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I hear and understand your anger, but I stand by my statement. Love is NOT

always an action, and is sometimes buried very deeply beneath a lot of other

very complicated feelings.

I'm sorry that those boys couldn't have had a mom who treats them the way

they deserve to be treated, but I'm very thankful they have YOU.

Re: Re:He's Back In Jail

I don't see any love from her toward her boys right now. When she dumped

them last summer to go to Las Vegas, she didn't give a _amn about them.

When

hubby goes to the can, then she gave them tons of attention for these

previous 9

months just like she was with me, As soon as dirt bag came back, the kids

were once again a big inconvenience, She uses the boys exactly the same as

she

uses me. That's NOT LOVE!!!!!!!

Jean

[Guest guest]

Also, I don't want you to misunderstand me. I am NOT siding with

your dtr. Is her behavior reprehensible? Absolutely. Is she

neglecting her kids? Obviously.

The only thing I am saying is that we don't always see beyond what

is most obvious, and it may be that there are other things driving

your dtr's behavior than what is obvious. That's all.

Obviously, her idea of how to act " loving " towards her kids is

totally inappropriate. But, what do we expect out of our bp kids?

How would she, when she doesn't know how to have healthy

relationships with others, suddenly be able to have one with her

kids?

I just think there are very, very few people in this world who have

lost the capacity to love. Most of them are psychopaths and

sociopaths. Maybe you feel your dtr falls in this category. Maybe

she does. Maybe she doesn't.

>

>

> I don't see any love from her toward her boys right now. When she

dumped

> them last summer to go to Las Vegas, she didn't give a _amn about

them. When

> hubby goes to the can, then she gave them tons of attention for

these previous 9

> months just like she was with me, As soon as dirt bag came back,

the kids

> were once again a big inconvenience, She uses the boys exactly

the same as she

> uses me. That's NOT LOVE!!!!!!!

>

> Jean

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You ask how would my daughter suddenly know how to have a healthy

relstionship with her kids when BPs don't know howw to have healthy

relationships period.

My question is why does she act appropriately as a mother with her kids

(outwardly loving, plays board games with them, bathes them daily, etc) when

there

is no guy in her life and then AS SOON as one of these bums moves in

everything goes to hell?

I don't care whether she REALLY loves them or not as long as she makes it so

THEY feel that they are loved by her. As long as she fulfills their needs, I

really don't give a d--- what she really feels.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the compliment. I wish I could BE in their lives like I used to

be to show them that they are loved and valued as they deserve to be.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Good Morning Kelley

It may be just too early in the AM but I'm not sure what this last post

meant.

Jean