Re: Homosexuality in Primitives

[Guest guest]

> If you have ever read Pottengers cats you will

> know that animals fed optimal diets exibit typical

> sexual characteristics and behavior.

>

> Pottenger noted the more degenerated the cats became

> their sexual behavior became unnatural.

>

> Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Only that while some gay people may be malnourished, malnourishment

doesn't cause homosexuality.

Lynn S.

------

Mama, homeschooler, writer, activist, spinner & knitter

http://www.siprelle.com

NOTICE: The National Security Agency may have read this email without

warning, warrant, or notice.

[Guest guest]

Excuse me. Are you calling homosexuality degenerate and unnatural?????

" lovely.ishtar " <lovely.ishtar@...> wrote:

If you have ever read Pottengers cats you will

know that animals fed optimal diets exibit typical

sexual characteristics and behavior.

Pottenger noted the more degenerated the cats became

their sexual behavior became unnatural.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

ishtr

---------------------------------

Get your own web address.

Have a HUGE year through Small Business.

[Guest guest]

Well, my thought is that you seem to be implying that homosexual behavior is

degenerate and unnatural.

-------------- Original message ----------------------

From: " lovely.ishtar " <lovely.ishtar@...>

>

> If you have ever read Pottengers cats you will

> know that animals fed optimal diets exibit typical

> sexual characteristics and behavior.

>

> Pottenger noted the more degenerated the cats became

> their sexual behavior became unnatural.

>

> Anyone have any thoughts on this?

>

>

>

> ishtr

>

>

[Guest guest]

> > Pottenger noted the more degenerated the cats became

> > their sexual behavior became unnatural.

> >

> > Anyone have any thoughts on this?

>

> Only that while some gay people may be malnourished, malnourishment

> doesn't cause homosexuality.

>

> Lynn S.

I never read Pottenger. What was the unnatural sex?

Maybe it wasn't homosexuality but rather, excessive use of erotic

catnip instead of real relationships.

Connie

[Guest guest]

He didnt go into great detail about it, he didnt

say anything about catnip though...i think he

probably would have mentioned it though if he had.

He mentioned he females becoming masculine and the

males becomming more feminine.

I also remember reading something ( not pottenger )

that animals in zoos develop sexually peculiar behavior

such as masturbation and homosexual behavior.

Healthy wild animals dont usually exhibit this kind

of behavior according to pottenger.

Sally Fallon in NT mentioned something briefly about

masturbation being a symptom of illness, does anyone

know why that is?

ishtar

>

> > > Pottenger noted the more degenerated the cats became

> > > their sexual behavior became unnatural.

> > >

> > > Anyone have any thoughts on this?

> >

> > Only that while some gay people may be malnourished,

malnourishment

> > doesn't cause homosexuality.

> >

> > Lynn S.

>

> I never read Pottenger. What was the unnatural sex?

>

> Maybe it wasn't homosexuality but rather, excessive use of erotic

> catnip instead of real relationships.

>

> Connie

>

[Guest guest]

I definately have thoughts on it, but after reading the relies already, I get

the feeling that this might not be the best place to discuss it.

implode7@... wrote:

Well, my thought is that you seem to be implying that homosexual behavior is

degenerate and unnatural.

-------------- Original message ----------------------

From: " lovely.ishtar " <lovely.ishtar@...>

>

> If you have ever read Pottengers cats you will

> know that animals fed optimal diets exibit typical

> sexual characteristics and behavior.

>

> Pottenger noted the more degenerated the cats became

> their sexual behavior became unnatural.

>

> Anyone have any thoughts on this?

>

>

>

> ishtr

>

>

[Guest guest]

I doubt we could reach any scientific conclusion when people get

accused of homophobia just for bringing something like this up. What

if homosexuality is caused by malnutrition of the parents causing

changes in DNA? I just saw a documentary where they talked about how

the amount of testosterone in the mother's womb affects the

personality and even heart/lung development of the developing fetus.

It also affects finger length and a scientist gathered some runners

and just on the basis of measurements comparing ring fingers to index

fingers accurately picked 4 of the 6's correct placement in the race -

the two he missed came in 3rd and 4th instead of the reverse. Who

is to say that something similar isn't affecting the person's gender

identification or attraction? Have you seen the film about the

babies born hermaphrodites where the doctors chose the gender to

surgically alter them to and the parents raised them (usually as

sons) in one gender without telling them what they were born as? The

children felt wrong and several went on as adults to get sex change

operations. Gender isn't taught, it's inborn and like anything else

can be affected by conditions before birth. Just my opinion.

>

>

> Well, my thought is that you seem to be implying that homosexual

behavior is degenerate and unnatural.

>

> -------------- Original message ----------------------

> From: " lovely.ishtar " <lovely.ishtar@...>

> >

> > If you have ever read Pottengers cats you will

> > know that animals fed optimal diets exibit typical

> > sexual characteristics and behavior.

> >

> > Pottenger noted the more degenerated the cats became

> > their sexual behavior became unnatural.

> >

> > Anyone have any thoughts on this?

> >

> >

> >

> > ishtr

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ishtar,

> Healthy wild animals dont usually exhibit this kind

> of behavior according to pottenger.

With all due respect to Pottenger, he was a medical physician. Do you

really think he had a clue what kind of behavior wild animals exhibit?

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

On 2/13/07, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote:

> I doubt we could reach any scientific conclusion when people get

> accused of homophobia just for bringing something like this up. What

> if homosexuality is caused by malnutrition of the parents causing

> changes in DNA? I just saw a documentary where they talked about how

> the amount of testosterone in the mother's womb affects the

> personality and even heart/lung development of the developing fetus.

> It also affects finger length and a scientist gathered some runners

> and just on the basis of measurements comparing ring fingers to index

> fingers accurately picked 4 of the 6's correct placement in the race -

> the two he missed came in 3rd and 4th instead of the reverse. Who

> is to say that something similar isn't affecting the person's gender

> identification or attraction? Have you seen the film about the

> babies born hermaphrodites where the doctors chose the gender to

> surgically alter them to and the parents raised them (usually as

> sons) in one gender without telling them what they were born as? The

> children felt wrong and several went on as adults to get sex change

> operations. Gender isn't taught, it's inborn and like anything else

> can be affected by conditions before birth. Just my opinion.

Actually I came across one study suggesting that, based on finger

measurements, homosexuals are more likely to be exposed to high

testosterone in the womb. There are, however, several hundred studies

indexed for medline on hormones and homosexuality. I'm not too

interested in it so I haven't looked at most of them, although one of

them is a recent review that concluded there was no good evidence for

a consistent relationship between hormones and homosexuality (don't

know if the conclusion was valid or not).

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

>

> ³I doubt we could reach any scientific conclusion when people get

> accused of homophobia just for bringing something like this up. ³

>

> And, I didn¹t do that. I think you should read the passage that I commented

> on, and what I said with a little more care.

>

> However, when someone brings ³something like this up², and implies that the

> behavior is ³degenerate² and unnatural, then I¹d suggest that there is a

> prejudicial attititude behind it.

>

> I¹d also suggest that when someone seems very concerned about adducing

> scientific evidence that some group of people is deficient in some way, that

> there is some prejudice behind it.

>

>

> ³ What

> if homosexuality is caused by malnutrition of the parents causing

> changes in DNA?²

>

> All homosexuality is Œcaused¹ by this? Do you seriously propose this?

>

> ³I just saw a documentary where they talked about how

> the amount of testosterone in the mother's womb affects the

> personality and even heart/lung development of the developing fetus.

> It also affects finger length and a scientist gathered some runners

> and just on the basis of measurements comparing ring fingers to index

> fingers accurately picked 4 of the 6's correct placement in the race -

> the two he missed came in 3rd and 4th instead of the reverse. Who

> is to say that something similar isn't affecting the person's gender

> identification or attraction? Have you seen the film about the

> babies born hermaphrodites where the doctors chose the gender to

> surgically alter them to and the parents raised them (usually as

> sons) in one gender without telling them what they were born as? The

> children felt wrong and several went on as adults to get sex change

> operations. Gender isn't taught, it's inborn and like anything else

> can be affected by conditions before birth. Just my opinion.²

>

> Opinion isn¹t science, and opinion can have prejudicial attitudes motivating

> it. I¹d find other issues to worry about.

>

>

>> >

>> >

>> > Well, my thought is that you seem to be implying that homosexual

> behavior is degenerate and unnatural.

>> >

>> > -------------- Original message ----------------------

>> > From: " lovely.ishtar " <lovely.ishtar@...>

>>> > >

>>> > > If you have ever read Pottengers cats you will

>>> > > know that animals fed optimal diets exibit typical

>>> > > sexual characteristics and behavior.

>>> > >

>>> > > Pottenger noted the more degenerated the cats became

>>> > > their sexual behavior became unnatural.

>>> > >

>>> > > Anyone have any thoughts on this?

>>> > >

>>> > >

>>> > >

>>> > > ishtr

>>> > >

[Guest guest]

>

> ³Actually I came across one study suggesting that, based on finger

> measurements, homosexuals are more likely to be exposed to high

testosterone in the womb. ³

Everyone knows that homosexuals tend to have unnaturally long fingers.

[Guest guest]

It would be helpful if you would describe what you mean by " unnatural

sexual behavior. " There have been studies showing when rats become

overcrowded/ over populated there is more same sex sex. This would

imply a natural means of population control.

Christa

>

>

> If you have ever read Pottengers cats you will

> know that animals fed optimal diets exibit typical

> sexual characteristics and behavior.

>

> Pottenger noted the more degenerated the cats became

> their sexual behavior became unnatural.

>

> Anyone have any thoughts on this?

>

>

>

> ishtr

>

[Guest guest]

On 2/13/07, dishchrista <dishchrista@...> wrote:

> It would be helpful if you would describe what you mean by " unnatural

> sexual behavior. " There have been studies showing when rats become

> overcrowded/ over populated there is more same sex sex. This would

> imply a natural means of population control.

Lower intake of some nutrients would presumably be a biological signal

indicating overpopulation. In Daphnia, a crustacean, they use asexual

reproduction until they get signals of overpopulation and season by

length of days, I think low food availability if I remember right, and

some unidentified factor that is present in water that is overcroweded

with them. They switch to sexual reproduction under these situations

to increase genetic variability. Seems like it might be different

across species although humans are obviously more similar to a cat or

rat than a crustacean.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

Uh Oh, now you've struck a nerve Ishtar!;-D

It's an academic question folks, not a value judgement. Relax.

I think it makes perfect sense. Poor nutrition, part. the ingestion of high

amounts of phytoestrogens and anything that would disrupt the endocrine system

is going to disturb the hormone cascade. More estrogen in males, more feminine

attributes, also more *deviant* behavior, deviant in that it DEVIATES from what

a healthy hormonal response would be, given healthy hromones.

The same can happen to women. This isn't to say that all homo. behavior is the

result of bad nutrition, but that bad nutrition could most certainly disrupt

ones normal hormonal balance and that behaviors are affected dramatically by

hormones. I doubt any female would argue with that.

Now please, folks, let's allow a discussion of curiosity to unfold without

turning into an intolerant, defensive angry mob. ;-) It's okay, we're all bright

and liberal minded. Lets' not kill poor Ishtar (or me!) for discussing a hot

topic. Im really fascinated!

This is not about homo rights, but hormones, behavior and diet, period.

jane

[Guest guest]

>>Well, my thought is that you seem to be implying that homosexual behavior is

degenerate and unnatural.>>

I suppose it would have to be " de-generate " in that gays cannot procreate, or

generate, and unnatural in that it is not in keeping with the natural plumbing

of the individual. No offense meant, Im sure on Ishtr's part.

jane

[Guest guest]

Sorry - I strongly disagree. If I call a behavior abnormal, or deviant, or

whatever (can't remember the words and don't have the original email) it is a

JUDGEMENT.

Similarly - you are implying that it is deviant behavior. Pure and simple - this

is not an academic question - it is a value judgement, and you are a bigot.

-------------- Original message ----------------------

From: " Jane Rowland " <classicalwriter@...>

> Uh Oh, now you've struck a nerve Ishtar!;-D

>

> It's an academic question folks, not a value judgement. Relax.

>

> I think it makes perfect sense. Poor nutrition, part. the ingestion of high

> amounts of phytoestrogens and anything that would disrupt the endocrine system

> is going to disturb the hormone cascade. More estrogen in males, more feminine

> attributes, also more *deviant* behavior, deviant in that it DEVIATES from

what

> a healthy hormonal response would be, given healthy hromones.

>

> The same can happen to women. This isn't to say that all homo. behavior is the

> result of bad nutrition, but that bad nutrition could most certainly disrupt

> ones normal hormonal balance and that behaviors are affected dramatically by

> hormones. I doubt any female would argue with that.

>

>

> Now please, folks, let's allow a discussion of curiosity to unfold without

> turning into an intolerant, defensive angry mob. ;-) It's okay, we're all

bright

> and liberal minded. Lets' not kill poor Ishtar (or me!) for discussing a hot

> topic. Im really fascinated!

>

> This is not about homo rights, but hormones, behavior and diet, period.

>

> jane

>

>

[Guest guest]

I doubt that you mean offense either, but sorry, it IS offensive.

-------------- Original message ----------------------

From: " Jane Rowland " <classicalwriter@...>

> >>Well, my thought is that you seem to be implying that homosexual behavior is

> degenerate and unnatural.>>

>

> I suppose it would have to be " de-generate " in that gays cannot procreate, or

> generate, and unnatural in that it is not in keeping with the natural plumbing

> of the individual. No offense meant, Im sure on Ishtr's part.

>

> jane

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

That's really interesting. I never thought too much about it, but

there are other species which can change their method of

reproduction. I wonder if, assuming the conditions were " right " , it

would be possible for human reproduction to change, or adjust, to the

situation.

Ken

> > It would be helpful if you would describe what you mean

by " unnatural

> > sexual behavior. " There have been studies showing when rats become

> > overcrowded/ over populated there is more same sex sex. This would

> > imply a natural means of population control.

>

> Lower intake of some nutrients would presumably be a biological

signal

> indicating overpopulation. In Daphnia, a crustacean, they use

asexual

> reproduction until they get signals of overpopulation and season by

> length of days, I think low food availability if I remember right,

and

> some unidentified factor that is present in water that is

overcroweded

> with them. They switch to sexual reproduction under these

situations

> to increase genetic variability. Seems like it might be different

> across species although humans are obviously more similar to a cat

or

> rat than a crustacean.

>

> Chris

> --

> The Truth About Cholesterol

> Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

>

[Guest guest]

Here, here.

No need for such defensiveness. No attacks for WMD are imminent!!

But I'm sure the WMD are there...probably...somewhere...

I really am...

You don't believe me?!

OK, Everyone feel better now?

>

> Uh Oh, now you've struck a nerve Ishtar!;-D

>

> It's an academic question folks, not a value judgement. Relax.

>

> I think it makes perfect sense. Poor nutrition, part. the ingestion

of high amounts of phytoestrogens and anything that would disrupt the

endocrine system is going to disturb the hormone cascade. More

estrogen in males, more feminine attributes, also more *deviant*

behavior, deviant in that it DEVIATES from what a healthy hormonal

response would be, given healthy hromones.

>

> The same can happen to women. This isn't to say that all homo.

behavior is the result of bad nutrition, but that bad nutrition could

most certainly disrupt ones normal hormonal balance and that

behaviors are affected dramatically by hormones. I doubt any female

would argue with that.

>

>

> Now please, folks, let's allow a discussion of curiosity to unfold

without turning into an intolerant, defensive angry mob. ;-) It's

okay, we're all bright and liberal minded. Lets' not kill poor Ishtar

(or me!) for discussing a hot topic. Im really fascinated!

>

> This is not about homo rights, but hormones, behavior and diet,

period.

>

> jane

>

>

[Guest guest]

Membeers of many primitive groups exhibit homosexuality at different

points in their lives. They are not eating anywhere nearly as

degenerate a diet as many heterosexuals in our society.

>

>

> If you have ever read Pottengers cats you will

> know that animals fed optimal diets exibit typical

> sexual characteristics and behavior.

>

> Pottenger noted the more degenerated the cats became

> their sexual behavior became unnatural.

>

> Anyone have any thoughts on this?

>

>

>

> ishtr

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, apparently.

-Lovely

P.S feel free to email me privately if you like on

this issue

> I definately have thoughts on it, but after reading the relies

already, I get the feeling that this might not be the best place to

discuss it.

>

> implode7@... wrote:

> Well, my thought is that you seem to be implying that homosexual

behavior is degenerate and unnatural.

>

> -------------- Original message ----------------------

> From: " lovely.ishtar " <lovely.ishtar@...>

> >

> > If you have ever read Pottengers cats you will

> > know that animals fed optimal diets exibit typical

> > sexual characteristics and behavior.

> >

> > Pottenger noted the more degenerated the cats became

> > their sexual behavior became unnatural.

> >

> > Anyone have any thoughts on this?

> >

> >

> >

> > ishtr

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you jane,

It IS an academic question.

And i just remembered something i saw on Discovery (years ago )

about trans-genderism. And how problems in the womb

could acount for this.

Also i remember reading in my very first WAP brochure on

how soy can cause males to exibit feminine traits, per

distruption of their endocrine system.

-Lovely

> Uh Oh, now you've struck a nerve Ishtar!;-D

>

> It's an academic question folks, not a value judgement. Relax.

>

> I think it makes perfect sense. Poor nutrition, part. the ingestion

of high amounts of phytoestrogens and anything that would disrupt the

endocrine system is going to disturb the hormone cascade. More

estrogen in males, more feminine attributes, also more *deviant*

behavior, deviant in that it DEVIATES from what a healthy hormonal

response would be, given healthy hromones.

>

> The same can happen to women. This isn't to say that all homo.

behavior is the result of bad nutrition, but that bad nutrition could

most certainly disrupt ones normal hormonal balance and that

behaviors are affected dramatically by hormones. I doubt any female

would argue with that.

>

>

> Now please, folks, let's allow a discussion of curiosity to unfold

without turning into an intolerant, defensive angry mob. ;-) It's

okay, we're all bright and liberal minded. Lets' not kill poor Ishtar

(or me!) for discussing a hot topic. Im really fascinated!

>

> This is not about homo rights, but hormones, behavior and diet,

period.

>

> jane

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well, since you can offer your view that homosexuality is a disorder possibly

caused by malnutrition, I feel it's necessary to offer my own conclusions on

this subject.

Hermaphrodites and transgendered and homosexual individuals are the physical

manifestation of a stage of evolution toward what we truly are at the soul

level...both male and female at the same time. Angels are hermaphrodites,

neither male nor female exclusively. Gender-blending is the beginning of the

end of duality and a sign of higher levels of evolution and enlightenment.

Higher Power consists of both masculine and feminine energy, and as we

spiritually evolve, we get closer and closer to that, and find that we are

attracted to another's soul energy, not their plumbing. Just my opinion.

And Pottenger simply didn't know about the wild animal kingdom, as few people

did back in a day when we couldn't observe them with hidden cameras and mics

like we now get such a kick out of on Meerkat Manor. Now we know that without a

doubt, homosexual behavior exists throughout the animal kingdom in various ways.

And pottenger didn't really know cats very well if he didn't know their

proclivity for spending long, lazy afternoons having oral sex with members of

their own gender.

haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: I doubt

we could reach any scientific conclusion when people get

accused of homophobia just for bringing something like this up. What

if homosexuality is caused by malnutrition of the parents causing

changes in DNA? I just saw a documentary where they talked about how

the amount of testosterone in the mother's womb affects the

personality and even heart/lung development of the developing fetus.

It also affects finger length and a scientist gathered some runners

and just on the basis of measurements comparing ring fingers to index

fingers accurately picked 4 of the 6's correct placement in the race -

the two he missed came in 3rd and 4th instead of the reverse. Who

is to say that something similar isn't affecting the person's gender

identification or attraction? Have you seen the film about the

babies born hermaphrodites where the doctors chose the gender to

surgically alter them to and the parents raised them (usually as

sons) in one gender without telling them what they were born as? The

children felt wrong and several went on as adults to get sex change

operations. Gender isn't taught, it's inborn and like anything else

can be affected by conditions before birth. Just my opinion.

>

>

> Well, my thought is that you seem to be implying that homosexual

behavior is degenerate and unnatural.

>

> -------------- Original message ----------------------

> From: " lovely.ishtar " <lovely.ishtar@...>

> >

> > If you have ever read Pottengers cats you will

> > know that animals fed optimal diets exibit typical

> > sexual characteristics and behavior.

> >

> > Pottenger noted the more degenerated the cats became

> > their sexual behavior became unnatural.

> >

> > Anyone have any thoughts on this?

> >

> >

> >

> > ishtr

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Or at least unusually dextrous and multi-talented ones.

;-)

Gene Schwartz <implode7@...> wrote:

>

> �Actually I came across one study suggesting that, based on finger

> measurements, homosexuals are more likely to be exposed to high

testosterone in the womb. �

Everyone knows that homosexuals tend to have unnaturally long fingers.

[Guest guest]

Well, if you once saw it on TV, and you proclaim it so, so be it.

-------------- Original message ----------------------

From: " lovely.ishtar " <lovely.ishtar@...>

>

> Thank you jane,

>

> It IS an academic question.

>

> And i just remembered something i saw on Discovery (years ago )

> about trans-genderism. And how problems in the womb

> could acount for this.

>

> Also i remember reading in my very first WAP brochure on

> how soy can cause males to exibit feminine traits, per

> distruption of their endocrine system.

>

>

> -Lovely

>

>

> > Uh Oh, now you've struck a nerve Ishtar!;-D

> >

> > It's an academic question folks, not a value judgement. Relax.

> >

> > I think it makes perfect sense. Poor nutrition, part. the ingestion

> of high amounts of phytoestrogens and anything that would disrupt the

> endocrine system is going to disturb the hormone cascade. More

> estrogen in males, more feminine attributes, also more *deviant*

> behavior, deviant in that it DEVIATES from what a healthy hormonal

> response would be, given healthy hromones.

> >

> > The same can happen to women. This isn't to say that all homo.

> behavior is the result of bad nutrition, but that bad nutrition could

> most certainly disrupt ones normal hormonal balance and that

> behaviors are affected dramatically by hormones. I doubt any female

> would argue with that.

> >

> >

> > Now please, folks, let's allow a discussion of curiosity to unfold

> without turning into an intolerant, defensive angry mob. ;-) It's

> okay, we're all bright and liberal minded. Lets' not kill poor Ishtar

> (or me!) for discussing a hot topic. Im really fascinated!

> >

> > This is not about homo rights, but hormones, behavior and diet,

> period.

> >

> > jane

> >

> >