RE: PTA's and joint mobs

[Guest guest]

Ken,

So tying our hands as professionals IS a " good idea " , is appropriate, and is

ethical?

Re: PTA's and joint mobs

Am I the only one against?

Simonetti, PT

Chestertown, MD

>

> Group,

> How bout an informal survey?

>

> For or against PTA's performing joint mobs?

>

Looking to start your own Practice?

Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a

professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join

and participate now!

[Guest guest]

Ken,

So tying our hands as professionals IS a " good idea " , is appropriate, and is

ethical?

Re: PTA's and joint mobs

Am I the only one against?

Simonetti, PT

Chestertown, MD

>

> Group,

> How bout an informal survey?

>

> For or against PTA's performing joint mobs?

>

Looking to start your own Practice?

Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a

professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join

and participate now!

[Guest guest]

Seems to be just you and Ken at this point, besides of course the APTA.

That is of course why I posted this. My question is does the APTA's stance

mirror the majority of its members?

Re: PTA's and joint mobs

Am I the only one against?

Simonetti, PT

Chestertown, MD

>

> Group,

> How bout an informal survey?

>

> For or against PTA's performing joint mobs?

>

Looking to start your own Practice?

Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a

professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join

and participate now!

[Guest guest]

Seems to be just you and Ken at this point, besides of course the APTA.

That is of course why I posted this. My question is does the APTA's stance

mirror the majority of its members?

Re: PTA's and joint mobs

Am I the only one against?

Simonetti, PT

Chestertown, MD

>

> Group,

> How bout an informal survey?

>

> For or against PTA's performing joint mobs?

>

Looking to start your own Practice?

Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a

professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join

and participate now!

[Guest guest]

The idea that PTAs cannot perform joint mobs is a precarious one, and

like most APTAs position statements, they were voted on and passed by

the governing body of the APTA, the House of Delegates. I was

fortunate to have contributed to 3 meetings of the HoD, and am pleased

to note the process is pretty good. That is, our profession is in

good hands. But you do not have to agree - if you disagree, take this

as the impetus to get involved, not just to show up but to seek an

office and an important role in the state or national association.

This forum is not a great place to air grievances, but it does help to

identify some answers to complex questions.

I speak not for the APTA on this matter, but there are some valid

reasons that the APTA pushes this stance. None of my reasons may or

may not be the spark that prompted this position, but here goes:

Let us not forget that the terms mobilization and manipulation, as per

the APTA, are now one in the same. Very important concept to note

when there are other professions trying to distinguish between the two

and take away the right of PTs to perform certain types of these

techniques. The differentiation between a grade I or a II or grade

III or a grade IV, pending your terminology and grading system, is a

dynamic process and requires an assessment of patient status. This

gets into the gray area of what a PTA does and what the practice act

allow as well as what the APTA mentions.

I am not promoting this idea because I like it or because I am anti-

PTA, nor overtly pro-APTA. If you truly feel that the position of the

APTA is not fair, work on changing it. The times may have changed and

this issue might need to be revisited.

Simonetti, PT

Chestertown, MD

> Group,

> I think the new ruling where PTA's cannot perform mobs is unfair.

Joint mobs were on our PTA cirriculum and we had to pass a compentency

exam. I think PTA's are perfectly educated and competent when it

comes to mobs and there is no reason they cannot do them. You go

through all the anatomy to understand how each joint functions. As

long as you pass your competency with no problems, you should be

allowed to perform joint mobs.

>

> , CPC-PTA

> Billing Administrator

> lin Physical Therapy, LLC

>

[Guest guest]

The idea that PTAs cannot perform joint mobs is a precarious one, and

like most APTAs position statements, they were voted on and passed by

the governing body of the APTA, the House of Delegates. I was

fortunate to have contributed to 3 meetings of the HoD, and am pleased

to note the process is pretty good. That is, our profession is in

good hands. But you do not have to agree - if you disagree, take this

as the impetus to get involved, not just to show up but to seek an

office and an important role in the state or national association.

This forum is not a great place to air grievances, but it does help to

identify some answers to complex questions.

I speak not for the APTA on this matter, but there are some valid

reasons that the APTA pushes this stance. None of my reasons may or

may not be the spark that prompted this position, but here goes:

Let us not forget that the terms mobilization and manipulation, as per

the APTA, are now one in the same. Very important concept to note

when there are other professions trying to distinguish between the two

and take away the right of PTs to perform certain types of these

techniques. The differentiation between a grade I or a II or grade

III or a grade IV, pending your terminology and grading system, is a

dynamic process and requires an assessment of patient status. This

gets into the gray area of what a PTA does and what the practice act

allow as well as what the APTA mentions.

I am not promoting this idea because I like it or because I am anti-

PTA, nor overtly pro-APTA. If you truly feel that the position of the

APTA is not fair, work on changing it. The times may have changed and

this issue might need to be revisited.

Simonetti, PT

Chestertown, MD

> Group,

> I think the new ruling where PTA's cannot perform mobs is unfair.

Joint mobs were on our PTA cirriculum and we had to pass a compentency

exam. I think PTA's are perfectly educated and competent when it

comes to mobs and there is no reason they cannot do them. You go

through all the anatomy to understand how each joint functions. As

long as you pass your competency with no problems, you should be

allowed to perform joint mobs.

>

> , CPC-PTA

> Billing Administrator

> lin Physical Therapy, LLC

>

[Guest guest]

If PTA's can't mobilize, of what use are they? I teach PTA mobilization

courses and I have no problem with them doing it; the supervising PT

assumes all risks and therefore needs to be comfortable.

Brett Windsor, PT, OCS, COMT, FAAOMPT

Director of Ancillary Services

The Vancouver Clinic

(office)

Re: PTA's and joint mobs

>

> Am I the only one against?

>

> Simonetti, PT

> Chestertown, MD

>

>

>

> >

> > Group,

> > How bout an informal survey?

> >

> > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs?

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Looking to start your own Practice?

> Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

> Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a

> professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

> PTManager encourages participation in your professional association.

> Join and participate now!

>

[Guest guest]

If PTA's can't mobilize, of what use are they? I teach PTA mobilization

courses and I have no problem with them doing it; the supervising PT

assumes all risks and therefore needs to be comfortable.

Brett Windsor, PT, OCS, COMT, FAAOMPT

Director of Ancillary Services

The Vancouver Clinic

(office)

Re: PTA's and joint mobs

>

> Am I the only one against?

>

> Simonetti, PT

> Chestertown, MD

>

>

>

> >

> > Group,

> > How bout an informal survey?

> >

> > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs?

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Looking to start your own Practice?

> Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

> Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a

> professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

> PTManager encourages participation in your professional association.

> Join and participate now!

>

[Guest guest]

Joe;

A couple of points:

First, don't assume that I agree with this position from APTA. My point is,

regardless of how I may feel about it, this is the position. As such, it

really doesn't matter what my own beliefs are, which incidentally differ

from this position.

Secondly, if any of us don't agree with any position of our organization,

our obligation is to speak up. Without feedback, the delegates who vote on

such positions (such as me) have only their own beliefs when voting. This

is no different than any other representative democracy, like our own

government.

Thirdly, involvement is more than just publications and privileges, it's

about advocacy. If we as individual members are silent, our elected

representatives can only guess how we feel. Why leave it up to guesswork,

especially when dues are involved? The place where such discussions will

have an impact, is at Chapter and section meetings of APTA.

Ken Mailly, PT

Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC

Tel. 973 692-0033

Fax 973 633-9557

68 Seneca Trail

Wayne, NJ, 07470

www.NJPTAid.biz

Bridging the Gap!

Re: PTA's and joint mobs

Am I the only one against?

Simonetti, PT

Chestertown, MD

>

> Group,

> How bout an informal survey?

>

> For or against PTA's performing joint mobs?

>

Looking to start your own Practice?

Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a

professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join

and participate now!

[Guest guest]

I think PT's should be very proud of their PTA's. PT has done an excellent job

creating an assistant with one of the most difficult curriculums and the hardest

standards of any profession, except maybe the physician assistant. PTA's are a

true reflection of the stringent standards set by PT. And I am glad PT has

created such a professional and useful assistant that they and the public can

rely on and utilize. E PTA

RE: Re: PTA's and joint mobs

>

> " Am I the only one against? "

>

> :

>

> No, you are not. In fact, as Lori has already pointed out, the

> representative body of the profession (APTA) is against this as well. This

> means that, in the event a patient claim malpractice by a PTA during the

> performance of one of these interventions, the risks of losing such a

> malpractice claim would be significantly higher than if the intervention

> were performed by the PT. Again, just because something may be legal, or we

> may personally feel it is appropriate, doesn't mean it's a " good idea " , or

> that it is ethical.

>

>

> Ken Mailly, PT

> Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC

>

[Guest guest]

I think PT's should be very proud of their PTA's. PT has done an excellent job

creating an assistant with one of the most difficult curriculums and the hardest

standards of any profession, except maybe the physician assistant. PTA's are a

true reflection of the stringent standards set by PT. And I am glad PT has

created such a professional and useful assistant that they and the public can

rely on and utilize. E PTA

RE: Re: PTA's and joint mobs

>

> " Am I the only one against? "

>

> :

>

> No, you are not. In fact, as Lori has already pointed out, the

> representative body of the profession (APTA) is against this as well. This

> means that, in the event a patient claim malpractice by a PTA during the

> performance of one of these interventions, the risks of losing such a

> malpractice claim would be significantly higher than if the intervention

> were performed by the PT. Again, just because something may be legal, or we

> may personally feel it is appropriate, doesn't mean it's a " good idea " , or

> that it is ethical.

>

>

> Ken Mailly, PT

> Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC

>

[Guest guest]

I think PT's should be very proud of their PTA's. PT has done an excellent job

creating an assistant with one of the most difficult curriculums and the hardest

standards of any profession, except maybe the physician assistant. PTA's are a

true reflection of the stringent standards set by PT. And I am glad PT has

created such a professional and useful assistant that they and the public can

rely on and utilize. E PTA

RE: Re: PTA's and joint mobs

>

> " Am I the only one against? "

>

> :

>

> No, you are not. In fact, as Lori has already pointed out, the

> representative body of the profession (APTA) is against this as well. This

> means that, in the event a patient claim malpractice by a PTA during the

> performance of one of these interventions, the risks of losing such a

> malpractice claim would be significantly higher than if the intervention

> were performed by the PT. Again, just because something may be legal, or we

> may personally feel it is appropriate, doesn't mean it's a " good idea " , or

> that it is ethical.

>

>

> Ken Mailly, PT

> Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC

>

[Guest guest]

I think you are entitled to your opinion, but you have a very narrow

focus of what the PTA is educated to do. I really question the basic

science background of the PTA.

Pam Unger

Re: PTA's and joint mobs

>

> Am I the only one against?

>

> Simonetti, PT

> Chestertown, MD

>

>

>

> >

> > Group,

> > How bout an informal survey?

> >

> > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs?

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Looking to start your own Practice?

> Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

> Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a

> professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

> PTManager encourages participation in your professional association.

> Join and participate now!

>

[Guest guest]

I think you are entitled to your opinion, but you have a very narrow

focus of what the PTA is educated to do. I really question the basic

science background of the PTA.

Pam Unger

Re: PTA's and joint mobs

>

> Am I the only one against?

>

> Simonetti, PT

> Chestertown, MD

>

>

>

> >

> > Group,

> > How bout an informal survey?

> >

> > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs?

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Looking to start your own Practice?

> Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

> Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a

> professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

> PTManager encourages participation in your professional association.

> Join and participate now!

>

[Guest guest]

I think you are entitled to your opinion, but you have a very narrow

focus of what the PTA is educated to do. I really question the basic

science background of the PTA.

Pam Unger

Re: PTA's and joint mobs

>

> Am I the only one against?

>

> Simonetti, PT

> Chestertown, MD

>

>

>

> >

> > Group,

> > How bout an informal survey?

> >

> > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs?

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Looking to start your own Practice?

> Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

> Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a

> professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

> PTManager encourages participation in your professional association.

> Join and participate now!

>

[Guest guest]

Dee,

Sorry you seem offended that I should ask a question. What is the harm is

discussing this among fellow professionals?

Re: Re: PTA's and joint mobs

I think PT's should be very proud of their PTA's. PT has done an excellent

job creating an assistant with one of the most difficult curriculums and the

hardest standards of any profession, except maybe the physician assistant.

PTA's are a true reflection of the stringent standards set by PT. And I am

glad PT has created such a professional and useful assistant that they and

the public can rely on and utilize. E PTA

RE: Re: PTA's and joint mobs

>

> " Am I the only one against? "

>

> :

>

> No, you are not. In fact, as Lori has already pointed out, the

> representative body of the profession (APTA) is against this as well.

This

> means that, in the event a patient claim malpractice by a PTA during the

> performance of one of these interventions, the risks of losing such a

> malpractice claim would be significantly higher than if the intervention

> were performed by the PT. Again, just because something may be legal,

or we

> may personally feel it is appropriate, doesn't mean it's a " good idea " ,

or

> that it is ethical.

>

>

> Ken Mailly, PT

> Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC

>

[Guest guest]

Dee,

Sorry you seem offended that I should ask a question. What is the harm is

discussing this among fellow professionals?

Re: Re: PTA's and joint mobs

I think PT's should be very proud of their PTA's. PT has done an excellent

job creating an assistant with one of the most difficult curriculums and the

hardest standards of any profession, except maybe the physician assistant.

PTA's are a true reflection of the stringent standards set by PT. And I am

glad PT has created such a professional and useful assistant that they and

the public can rely on and utilize. E PTA

RE: Re: PTA's and joint mobs

>

> " Am I the only one against? "

>

> :

>

> No, you are not. In fact, as Lori has already pointed out, the

> representative body of the profession (APTA) is against this as well.

This

> means that, in the event a patient claim malpractice by a PTA during the

> performance of one of these interventions, the risks of losing such a

> malpractice claim would be significantly higher than if the intervention

> were performed by the PT. Again, just because something may be legal,

or we

> may personally feel it is appropriate, doesn't mean it's a " good idea " ,

or

> that it is ethical.

>

>

> Ken Mailly, PT

> Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC

>

[Guest guest]

Dee,

Sorry you seem offended that I should ask a question. What is the harm is

discussing this among fellow professionals?

Re: Re: PTA's and joint mobs

I think PT's should be very proud of their PTA's. PT has done an excellent

job creating an assistant with one of the most difficult curriculums and the

hardest standards of any profession, except maybe the physician assistant.

PTA's are a true reflection of the stringent standards set by PT. And I am

glad PT has created such a professional and useful assistant that they and

the public can rely on and utilize. E PTA

RE: Re: PTA's and joint mobs

>

> " Am I the only one against? "

>

> :

>

> No, you are not. In fact, as Lori has already pointed out, the

> representative body of the profession (APTA) is against this as well.

This

> means that, in the event a patient claim malpractice by a PTA during the

> performance of one of these interventions, the risks of losing such a

> malpractice claim would be significantly higher than if the intervention

> were performed by the PT. Again, just because something may be legal,

or we

> may personally feel it is appropriate, doesn't mean it's a " good idea " ,

or

> that it is ethical.

>

>

> Ken Mailly, PT

> Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC

>

[Guest guest]

Brett,

I agree, if we reduce their allowed tasks to exercise instruciton only are

PTA's even worth employing?

Re: PTA's and joint mobs

>

> Am I the only one against?

>

> Simonetti, PT

> Chestertown, MD

>

>

>

> >

> > Group,

> > How bout an informal survey?

> >

> > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs?

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Looking to start your own Practice?

> Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

> Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a

> professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

> PTManager encourages participation in your professional association.

> Join and participate now!

>

[Guest guest]

Brett,

I agree, if we reduce their allowed tasks to exercise instruciton only are

PTA's even worth employing?

Re: PTA's and joint mobs

>

> Am I the only one against?

>

> Simonetti, PT

> Chestertown, MD

>

>

>

> >

> > Group,

> > How bout an informal survey?

> >

> > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs?

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Looking to start your own Practice?

> Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

> Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a

> professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

> PTManager encourages participation in your professional association.

> Join and participate now!

>

[Guest guest]

Ken,

First, my whole point was to gain individual responses.

Second, I am going to do exactly that. In fact this post arose from my

discussion of this very topic with a member of my state chapter. If the

overwhelming response was against PTA's and mobs I was ready to prepare for

an uphill battle. Consequently the opposite is true and I will be voicing

my opinion formally with the knowledge that at least in this small sample

size the majority is with me.

Third, thanks for you input!

Re: PTA's and joint mobs

Am I the only one against?

Simonetti, PT

Chestertown, MD

>

> Group,

> How bout an informal survey?

>

> For or against PTA's performing joint mobs?

>

Looking to start your own Practice?

Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a

professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join

and participate now!

[Guest guest]

Ken,

First, my whole point was to gain individual responses.

Second, I am going to do exactly that. In fact this post arose from my

discussion of this very topic with a member of my state chapter. If the

overwhelming response was against PTA's and mobs I was ready to prepare for

an uphill battle. Consequently the opposite is true and I will be voicing

my opinion formally with the knowledge that at least in this small sample

size the majority is with me.

Third, thanks for you input!

Re: PTA's and joint mobs

Am I the only one against?

Simonetti, PT

Chestertown, MD

>

> Group,

> How bout an informal survey?

>

> For or against PTA's performing joint mobs?

>

Looking to start your own Practice?

Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a

professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join

and participate now!

[Guest guest]

Ken,

First, my whole point was to gain individual responses.

Second, I am going to do exactly that. In fact this post arose from my

discussion of this very topic with a member of my state chapter. If the

overwhelming response was against PTA's and mobs I was ready to prepare for

an uphill battle. Consequently the opposite is true and I will be voicing

my opinion formally with the knowledge that at least in this small sample

size the majority is with me.

Third, thanks for you input!

Re: PTA's and joint mobs

Am I the only one against?

Simonetti, PT

Chestertown, MD

>

> Group,

> How bout an informal survey?

>

> For or against PTA's performing joint mobs?

>

Looking to start your own Practice?

Visit www.InHomeRehab.com.

Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a

professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange

PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join

and participate now!

[Guest guest]

,

You can count me in as against as well, simply too much room for

overutilization. We all come on here and say yes, but only if the

PTA is trained, ect.. The problem is that there are too many places

that utilize far too many PTA's per PT and far too many places that

don't care how well the PTA is trained, only whether or not they can

bill for the PTA's time. My philosophy and that of my clinic is

that we need to make every effort possible to meet or exceed the

expectations of the patient when they walk through our door. The

patient's expectation when they enter a Physical Therapist's office

to recieve Physical Therapy is that the person performing their care

will be a Physical Therapist. We need to meet that expectation. I

know some great PTA's and hope I don't offend but this is simply the

way I feel I would want to be treated, the best person to do the

job, the one most qualified and skilled, should be the PT, not the

PTA; each patient deserves that.

E. s, PT, DPT, OCS

s Orthopedic & Spine Rehabilitation, Inc.

Bonita Springs, Fla

-- In PTManager , " " <paulpt@d...> wrote:

> Am I the only one against?

>

> Simonetti, PT

> Chestertown, MD

>

>

>

> >

> > Group,

> > How bout an informal survey?

> >

> > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs?

> >

[Guest guest]

,

You can count me in as against as well, simply too much room for

overutilization. We all come on here and say yes, but only if the

PTA is trained, ect.. The problem is that there are too many places

that utilize far too many PTA's per PT and far too many places that

don't care how well the PTA is trained, only whether or not they can

bill for the PTA's time. My philosophy and that of my clinic is

that we need to make every effort possible to meet or exceed the

expectations of the patient when they walk through our door. The

patient's expectation when they enter a Physical Therapist's office

to recieve Physical Therapy is that the person performing their care

will be a Physical Therapist. We need to meet that expectation. I

know some great PTA's and hope I don't offend but this is simply the

way I feel I would want to be treated, the best person to do the

job, the one most qualified and skilled, should be the PT, not the

PTA; each patient deserves that.

E. s, PT, DPT, OCS

s Orthopedic & Spine Rehabilitation, Inc.

Bonita Springs, Fla

-- In PTManager , " " <paulpt@d...> wrote:

> Am I the only one against?

>

> Simonetti, PT

> Chestertown, MD

>

>

>

> >

> > Group,

> > How bout an informal survey?

> >

> > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs?

> >