Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 Ken, So tying our hands as professionals IS a " good idea " , is appropriate, and is ethical? Re: PTA's and joint mobs Am I the only one against? Simonetti, PT Chestertown, MD > > Group, > How bout an informal survey? > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 Ken, So tying our hands as professionals IS a " good idea " , is appropriate, and is ethical? Re: PTA's and joint mobs Am I the only one against? Simonetti, PT Chestertown, MD > > Group, > How bout an informal survey? > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 Seems to be just you and Ken at this point, besides of course the APTA. That is of course why I posted this. My question is does the APTA's stance mirror the majority of its members? Re: PTA's and joint mobs Am I the only one against? Simonetti, PT Chestertown, MD > > Group, > How bout an informal survey? > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 Seems to be just you and Ken at this point, besides of course the APTA. That is of course why I posted this. My question is does the APTA's stance mirror the majority of its members? Re: PTA's and joint mobs Am I the only one against? Simonetti, PT Chestertown, MD > > Group, > How bout an informal survey? > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 The idea that PTAs cannot perform joint mobs is a precarious one, and like most APTAs position statements, they were voted on and passed by the governing body of the APTA, the House of Delegates. I was fortunate to have contributed to 3 meetings of the HoD, and am pleased to note the process is pretty good. That is, our profession is in good hands. But you do not have to agree - if you disagree, take this as the impetus to get involved, not just to show up but to seek an office and an important role in the state or national association. This forum is not a great place to air grievances, but it does help to identify some answers to complex questions. I speak not for the APTA on this matter, but there are some valid reasons that the APTA pushes this stance. None of my reasons may or may not be the spark that prompted this position, but here goes: Let us not forget that the terms mobilization and manipulation, as per the APTA, are now one in the same. Very important concept to note when there are other professions trying to distinguish between the two and take away the right of PTs to perform certain types of these techniques. The differentiation between a grade I or a II or grade III or a grade IV, pending your terminology and grading system, is a dynamic process and requires an assessment of patient status. This gets into the gray area of what a PTA does and what the practice act allow as well as what the APTA mentions. I am not promoting this idea because I like it or because I am anti- PTA, nor overtly pro-APTA. If you truly feel that the position of the APTA is not fair, work on changing it. The times may have changed and this issue might need to be revisited. Simonetti, PT Chestertown, MD > Group, > I think the new ruling where PTA's cannot perform mobs is unfair. Joint mobs were on our PTA cirriculum and we had to pass a compentency exam. I think PTA's are perfectly educated and competent when it comes to mobs and there is no reason they cannot do them. You go through all the anatomy to understand how each joint functions. As long as you pass your competency with no problems, you should be allowed to perform joint mobs. > > , CPC-PTA > Billing Administrator > lin Physical Therapy, LLC > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 The idea that PTAs cannot perform joint mobs is a precarious one, and like most APTAs position statements, they were voted on and passed by the governing body of the APTA, the House of Delegates. I was fortunate to have contributed to 3 meetings of the HoD, and am pleased to note the process is pretty good. That is, our profession is in good hands. But you do not have to agree - if you disagree, take this as the impetus to get involved, not just to show up but to seek an office and an important role in the state or national association. This forum is not a great place to air grievances, but it does help to identify some answers to complex questions. I speak not for the APTA on this matter, but there are some valid reasons that the APTA pushes this stance. None of my reasons may or may not be the spark that prompted this position, but here goes: Let us not forget that the terms mobilization and manipulation, as per the APTA, are now one in the same. Very important concept to note when there are other professions trying to distinguish between the two and take away the right of PTs to perform certain types of these techniques. The differentiation between a grade I or a II or grade III or a grade IV, pending your terminology and grading system, is a dynamic process and requires an assessment of patient status. This gets into the gray area of what a PTA does and what the practice act allow as well as what the APTA mentions. I am not promoting this idea because I like it or because I am anti- PTA, nor overtly pro-APTA. If you truly feel that the position of the APTA is not fair, work on changing it. The times may have changed and this issue might need to be revisited. Simonetti, PT Chestertown, MD > Group, > I think the new ruling where PTA's cannot perform mobs is unfair. Joint mobs were on our PTA cirriculum and we had to pass a compentency exam. I think PTA's are perfectly educated and competent when it comes to mobs and there is no reason they cannot do them. You go through all the anatomy to understand how each joint functions. As long as you pass your competency with no problems, you should be allowed to perform joint mobs. > > , CPC-PTA > Billing Administrator > lin Physical Therapy, LLC > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 If PTA's can't mobilize, of what use are they? I teach PTA mobilization courses and I have no problem with them doing it; the supervising PT assumes all risks and therefore needs to be comfortable. Brett Windsor, PT, OCS, COMT, FAAOMPT Director of Ancillary Services The Vancouver Clinic (office) Re: PTA's and joint mobs > > Am I the only one against? > > Simonetti, PT > Chestertown, MD > > > > > > > Group, > > How bout an informal survey? > > > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > > > > > > > > > > Looking to start your own Practice? > Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. > Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a > professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange > PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. > Join and participate now! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 If PTA's can't mobilize, of what use are they? I teach PTA mobilization courses and I have no problem with them doing it; the supervising PT assumes all risks and therefore needs to be comfortable. Brett Windsor, PT, OCS, COMT, FAAOMPT Director of Ancillary Services The Vancouver Clinic (office) Re: PTA's and joint mobs > > Am I the only one against? > > Simonetti, PT > Chestertown, MD > > > > > > > Group, > > How bout an informal survey? > > > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > > > > > > > > > > Looking to start your own Practice? > Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. > Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a > professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange > PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. > Join and participate now! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 Joe; A couple of points: First, don't assume that I agree with this position from APTA. My point is, regardless of how I may feel about it, this is the position. As such, it really doesn't matter what my own beliefs are, which incidentally differ from this position. Secondly, if any of us don't agree with any position of our organization, our obligation is to speak up. Without feedback, the delegates who vote on such positions (such as me) have only their own beliefs when voting. This is no different than any other representative democracy, like our own government. Thirdly, involvement is more than just publications and privileges, it's about advocacy. If we as individual members are silent, our elected representatives can only guess how we feel. Why leave it up to guesswork, especially when dues are involved? The place where such discussions will have an impact, is at Chapter and section meetings of APTA. Ken Mailly, PT Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC Tel. 973 692-0033 Fax 973 633-9557 68 Seneca Trail Wayne, NJ, 07470 www.NJPTAid.biz Bridging the Gap! Re: PTA's and joint mobs Am I the only one against? Simonetti, PT Chestertown, MD > > Group, > How bout an informal survey? > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 I think PT's should be very proud of their PTA's. PT has done an excellent job creating an assistant with one of the most difficult curriculums and the hardest standards of any profession, except maybe the physician assistant. PTA's are a true reflection of the stringent standards set by PT. And I am glad PT has created such a professional and useful assistant that they and the public can rely on and utilize. E PTA RE: Re: PTA's and joint mobs > > " Am I the only one against? " > > : > > No, you are not. In fact, as Lori has already pointed out, the > representative body of the profession (APTA) is against this as well. This > means that, in the event a patient claim malpractice by a PTA during the > performance of one of these interventions, the risks of losing such a > malpractice claim would be significantly higher than if the intervention > were performed by the PT. Again, just because something may be legal, or we > may personally feel it is appropriate, doesn't mean it's a " good idea " , or > that it is ethical. > > > Ken Mailly, PT > Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 I think PT's should be very proud of their PTA's. PT has done an excellent job creating an assistant with one of the most difficult curriculums and the hardest standards of any profession, except maybe the physician assistant. PTA's are a true reflection of the stringent standards set by PT. And I am glad PT has created such a professional and useful assistant that they and the public can rely on and utilize. E PTA RE: Re: PTA's and joint mobs > > " Am I the only one against? " > > : > > No, you are not. In fact, as Lori has already pointed out, the > representative body of the profession (APTA) is against this as well. This > means that, in the event a patient claim malpractice by a PTA during the > performance of one of these interventions, the risks of losing such a > malpractice claim would be significantly higher than if the intervention > were performed by the PT. Again, just because something may be legal, or we > may personally feel it is appropriate, doesn't mean it's a " good idea " , or > that it is ethical. > > > Ken Mailly, PT > Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 I think PT's should be very proud of their PTA's. PT has done an excellent job creating an assistant with one of the most difficult curriculums and the hardest standards of any profession, except maybe the physician assistant. PTA's are a true reflection of the stringent standards set by PT. And I am glad PT has created such a professional and useful assistant that they and the public can rely on and utilize. E PTA RE: Re: PTA's and joint mobs > > " Am I the only one against? " > > : > > No, you are not. In fact, as Lori has already pointed out, the > representative body of the profession (APTA) is against this as well. This > means that, in the event a patient claim malpractice by a PTA during the > performance of one of these interventions, the risks of losing such a > malpractice claim would be significantly higher than if the intervention > were performed by the PT. Again, just because something may be legal, or we > may personally feel it is appropriate, doesn't mean it's a " good idea " , or > that it is ethical. > > > Ken Mailly, PT > Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 I think you are entitled to your opinion, but you have a very narrow focus of what the PTA is educated to do. I really question the basic science background of the PTA. Pam Unger Re: PTA's and joint mobs > > Am I the only one against? > > Simonetti, PT > Chestertown, MD > > > > > > > Group, > > How bout an informal survey? > > > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > > > > > > > > > > Looking to start your own Practice? > Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. > Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a > professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange > PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. > Join and participate now! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 I think you are entitled to your opinion, but you have a very narrow focus of what the PTA is educated to do. I really question the basic science background of the PTA. Pam Unger Re: PTA's and joint mobs > > Am I the only one against? > > Simonetti, PT > Chestertown, MD > > > > > > > Group, > > How bout an informal survey? > > > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > > > > > > > > > > Looking to start your own Practice? > Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. > Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a > professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange > PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. > Join and participate now! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 I think you are entitled to your opinion, but you have a very narrow focus of what the PTA is educated to do. I really question the basic science background of the PTA. Pam Unger Re: PTA's and joint mobs > > Am I the only one against? > > Simonetti, PT > Chestertown, MD > > > > > > > Group, > > How bout an informal survey? > > > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > > > > > > > > > > Looking to start your own Practice? > Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. > Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a > professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange > PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. > Join and participate now! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Dee, Sorry you seem offended that I should ask a question. What is the harm is discussing this among fellow professionals? Re: Re: PTA's and joint mobs I think PT's should be very proud of their PTA's. PT has done an excellent job creating an assistant with one of the most difficult curriculums and the hardest standards of any profession, except maybe the physician assistant. PTA's are a true reflection of the stringent standards set by PT. And I am glad PT has created such a professional and useful assistant that they and the public can rely on and utilize. E PTA RE: Re: PTA's and joint mobs > > " Am I the only one against? " > > : > > No, you are not. In fact, as Lori has already pointed out, the > representative body of the profession (APTA) is against this as well. This > means that, in the event a patient claim malpractice by a PTA during the > performance of one of these interventions, the risks of losing such a > malpractice claim would be significantly higher than if the intervention > were performed by the PT. Again, just because something may be legal, or we > may personally feel it is appropriate, doesn't mean it's a " good idea " , or > that it is ethical. > > > Ken Mailly, PT > Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Dee, Sorry you seem offended that I should ask a question. What is the harm is discussing this among fellow professionals? Re: Re: PTA's and joint mobs I think PT's should be very proud of their PTA's. PT has done an excellent job creating an assistant with one of the most difficult curriculums and the hardest standards of any profession, except maybe the physician assistant. PTA's are a true reflection of the stringent standards set by PT. And I am glad PT has created such a professional and useful assistant that they and the public can rely on and utilize. E PTA RE: Re: PTA's and joint mobs > > " Am I the only one against? " > > : > > No, you are not. In fact, as Lori has already pointed out, the > representative body of the profession (APTA) is against this as well. This > means that, in the event a patient claim malpractice by a PTA during the > performance of one of these interventions, the risks of losing such a > malpractice claim would be significantly higher than if the intervention > were performed by the PT. Again, just because something may be legal, or we > may personally feel it is appropriate, doesn't mean it's a " good idea " , or > that it is ethical. > > > Ken Mailly, PT > Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Dee, Sorry you seem offended that I should ask a question. What is the harm is discussing this among fellow professionals? Re: Re: PTA's and joint mobs I think PT's should be very proud of their PTA's. PT has done an excellent job creating an assistant with one of the most difficult curriculums and the hardest standards of any profession, except maybe the physician assistant. PTA's are a true reflection of the stringent standards set by PT. And I am glad PT has created such a professional and useful assistant that they and the public can rely on and utilize. E PTA RE: Re: PTA's and joint mobs > > " Am I the only one against? " > > : > > No, you are not. In fact, as Lori has already pointed out, the > representative body of the profession (APTA) is against this as well. This > means that, in the event a patient claim malpractice by a PTA during the > performance of one of these interventions, the risks of losing such a > malpractice claim would be significantly higher than if the intervention > were performed by the PT. Again, just because something may be legal, or we > may personally feel it is appropriate, doesn't mean it's a " good idea " , or > that it is ethical. > > > Ken Mailly, PT > Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Brett, I agree, if we reduce their allowed tasks to exercise instruciton only are PTA's even worth employing? Re: PTA's and joint mobs > > Am I the only one against? > > Simonetti, PT > Chestertown, MD > > > > > > > Group, > > How bout an informal survey? > > > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > > > > > > > > > > Looking to start your own Practice? > Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. > Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a > professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange > PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. > Join and participate now! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Brett, I agree, if we reduce their allowed tasks to exercise instruciton only are PTA's even worth employing? Re: PTA's and joint mobs > > Am I the only one against? > > Simonetti, PT > Chestertown, MD > > > > > > > Group, > > How bout an informal survey? > > > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > > > > > > > > > > Looking to start your own Practice? > Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. > Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a > professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange > PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. > Join and participate now! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Ken, First, my whole point was to gain individual responses. Second, I am going to do exactly that. In fact this post arose from my discussion of this very topic with a member of my state chapter. If the overwhelming response was against PTA's and mobs I was ready to prepare for an uphill battle. Consequently the opposite is true and I will be voicing my opinion formally with the knowledge that at least in this small sample size the majority is with me. Third, thanks for you input! Re: PTA's and joint mobs Am I the only one against? Simonetti, PT Chestertown, MD > > Group, > How bout an informal survey? > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Ken, First, my whole point was to gain individual responses. Second, I am going to do exactly that. In fact this post arose from my discussion of this very topic with a member of my state chapter. If the overwhelming response was against PTA's and mobs I was ready to prepare for an uphill battle. Consequently the opposite is true and I will be voicing my opinion formally with the knowledge that at least in this small sample size the majority is with me. Third, thanks for you input! Re: PTA's and joint mobs Am I the only one against? Simonetti, PT Chestertown, MD > > Group, > How bout an informal survey? > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Ken, First, my whole point was to gain individual responses. Second, I am going to do exactly that. In fact this post arose from my discussion of this very topic with a member of my state chapter. If the overwhelming response was against PTA's and mobs I was ready to prepare for an uphill battle. Consequently the opposite is true and I will be voicing my opinion formally with the knowledge that at least in this small sample size the majority is with me. Third, thanks for you input! Re: PTA's and joint mobs Am I the only one against? Simonetti, PT Chestertown, MD > > Group, > How bout an informal survey? > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 , You can count me in as against as well, simply too much room for overutilization. We all come on here and say yes, but only if the PTA is trained, ect.. The problem is that there are too many places that utilize far too many PTA's per PT and far too many places that don't care how well the PTA is trained, only whether or not they can bill for the PTA's time. My philosophy and that of my clinic is that we need to make every effort possible to meet or exceed the expectations of the patient when they walk through our door. The patient's expectation when they enter a Physical Therapist's office to recieve Physical Therapy is that the person performing their care will be a Physical Therapist. We need to meet that expectation. I know some great PTA's and hope I don't offend but this is simply the way I feel I would want to be treated, the best person to do the job, the one most qualified and skilled, should be the PT, not the PTA; each patient deserves that. E. s, PT, DPT, OCS s Orthopedic & Spine Rehabilitation, Inc. Bonita Springs, Fla -- In PTManager , " " <paulpt@d...> wrote: > Am I the only one against? > > Simonetti, PT > Chestertown, MD > > > > > > > Group, > > How bout an informal survey? > > > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 , You can count me in as against as well, simply too much room for overutilization. We all come on here and say yes, but only if the PTA is trained, ect.. The problem is that there are too many places that utilize far too many PTA's per PT and far too many places that don't care how well the PTA is trained, only whether or not they can bill for the PTA's time. My philosophy and that of my clinic is that we need to make every effort possible to meet or exceed the expectations of the patient when they walk through our door. The patient's expectation when they enter a Physical Therapist's office to recieve Physical Therapy is that the person performing their care will be a Physical Therapist. We need to meet that expectation. I know some great PTA's and hope I don't offend but this is simply the way I feel I would want to be treated, the best person to do the job, the one most qualified and skilled, should be the PT, not the PTA; each patient deserves that. E. s, PT, DPT, OCS s Orthopedic & Spine Rehabilitation, Inc. Bonita Springs, Fla -- In PTManager , " " <paulpt@d...> wrote: > Am I the only one against? > > Simonetti, PT > Chestertown, MD > > > > > > > Group, > > How bout an informal survey? > > > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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