Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 No need to apologize Joe, I usually try not to be abrupt online since you couldn't hear the pensiveness of the sigh. Like I said, you just happened to throw out a well intended missive that caught me like " trolling " - throwing out some bait to see who would bite. Perhaps members are trying to be thought provoking and I am all for free speech... I have noticed a bit of tendency instead of taking a risk/stand on an issue and posting a thoughtful missive, we seem to have a larger percentage of " is it ethical to beat our front office person daily " type posts. In many ways I guess I feel like PTAs in general are reestablishing a good working relationship with PTs/APTA and I don't want to stir things up in a nonproductive manner. I actually love discussion, and agree with a lot that you have posted. I just would have rather seen more background/rationale. I would love to find an answer to this conundrum Dee not offended and apologetic for appearing to stifle discussion > > Dee, > Sorry you seem offended that I should ask a question. What is the harm is > discussing this among fellow professionals? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 No need to apologize Joe, I usually try not to be abrupt online since you couldn't hear the pensiveness of the sigh. Like I said, you just happened to throw out a well intended missive that caught me like " trolling " - throwing out some bait to see who would bite. Perhaps members are trying to be thought provoking and I am all for free speech... I have noticed a bit of tendency instead of taking a risk/stand on an issue and posting a thoughtful missive, we seem to have a larger percentage of " is it ethical to beat our front office person daily " type posts. In many ways I guess I feel like PTAs in general are reestablishing a good working relationship with PTs/APTA and I don't want to stir things up in a nonproductive manner. I actually love discussion, and agree with a lot that you have posted. I just would have rather seen more background/rationale. I would love to find an answer to this conundrum Dee not offended and apologetic for appearing to stifle discussion > > Dee, > Sorry you seem offended that I should ask a question. What is the harm is > discussing this among fellow professionals? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 No need to apologize Joe, I usually try not to be abrupt online since you couldn't hear the pensiveness of the sigh. Like I said, you just happened to throw out a well intended missive that caught me like " trolling " - throwing out some bait to see who would bite. Perhaps members are trying to be thought provoking and I am all for free speech... I have noticed a bit of tendency instead of taking a risk/stand on an issue and posting a thoughtful missive, we seem to have a larger percentage of " is it ethical to beat our front office person daily " type posts. In many ways I guess I feel like PTAs in general are reestablishing a good working relationship with PTs/APTA and I don't want to stir things up in a nonproductive manner. I actually love discussion, and agree with a lot that you have posted. I just would have rather seen more background/rationale. I would love to find an answer to this conundrum Dee not offended and apologetic for appearing to stifle discussion > > Dee, > Sorry you seem offended that I should ask a question. What is the harm is > discussing this among fellow professionals? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Hi everyone, I guess I missed a lot while I was on vacation. Joe, You can count me on the side of being absolutely against PTA's doing any mobilization. I too was there for the discussion in the House of Delegates. First of all there was an email reminding us of the fact that the APTA position on this issue is a position, not a policy. While an APTA position carries less weight than its policies, it does still have purpose and the APTA expects that its members will be ethical and adhere to it. I want to bring up some of the arguments and questions that I can remember from the House of Delegates discussions: 1) Is manipulation something that requires ongoing assessment and evaluation, skills traditionally reserved for the physical therapist, or do you consider that parts of manipulation do not require the skills of a physical therapist? This question was always answered in the HOD discussion by manual therapists and orthopaedic instructors with far more experience than I have and it was always answered that all manipulation needs ongoing assessment skills, skills that only PT's traditionally have. I realize educational standards of the PTA have changed and maybe it is time to reexamine the question. Until then, no one has brought a valid argument to me to answer this question other than that all manipulation needs the skills of ongoing evaluation and assessment traditionally learned only by the PT. 2) If we allow PTA's to do spinal manipulation will it hurt our efforts to fight the chiropractic attacks against our ability to practice manipulation as we are trained? The answer to this is a firm yes. Most of the chiropractic arguments have centered on the number of hours PT's spend in training in manipulation and that we aren't qualified to manipulate spines (and yes I know that some of the arguments get into thrust, Grade V and adjustment subtleties). The bottom line, the APTA needed a position to secure its commitment to the training of PT's in manipulation that was firm and clear and not ambiguous (i.e. by allowing PTA's to do some manipulations but not others). This position was established at a time when the challenges by chiropractors was at a crucial point. 3) Does allowing PTA's and techs to do procedures that are recommended as only in the realm of the PT hurt the profession? There are many, including myself, who feel that it does. I agree with Mr. s that when someone comes to my clinic, they come with the expectation to see a PT. What does it say about our profession if we say that PTA's and techs can do everything we can but evaluate someone? What value does that give our profession? How does that help the public's perception of what we do? (Remember, these are also the arguments from the HOD discussions) The APTA position was another clear and unambiguous statement of position to help clear up public misconceptions. I happen to agree with this. 4) Does the education of the PTA and the completion of continuing education prepare the PTA to do manipulation? My recollection was that the discussion on this was mixed. Again this may be something that needs to be revisited. I can say that those educators that spoke out that the education of the PTA does not prepare a PTA for manipulation were convincing to me. It is still a concern to me. 5) What are the ramifications to reimbursement? This was another issue. The APTA already has to fight with CMS and private insurers over reimbursement. They needed a clear position on what interventions are to be exclusively done by PT's to help their fight on reimbursement. The main questions that always come up is that the more we turn over to the PTA the less likely insurances will consider what we do worth reimbursement. Again this devalues the role of the PT, this time from a different perspective. It is a valid risk. 6) What are the ramifications to state practice acts? Part of the need for this position was to help states update their practice acts. As president of the Idaho PT Association, we updated our act and it helped tremendously to have a clear position on this. We had to compromise in our practice act to secure the support of Idaho PT's, let alone MD's DC's and other stakeholders. Having clear positions like this allow states to be more clear and concise with their acts. Quite a few practice acts follow the APTA position. (need to check with APTA government affairs on how many) That speaks to yet another group that supports the position. So if you got to the end of this long discussion, I hope you understand a little bit more why the APTA has this position in the first place and why a majority of the HOD supported it. It is a clear and concise position that was needed to serve many purposes. I continue to support it because the arguments and concerns are still valid. And yes, I agree that the best way to move on from here is to speak up and be heard and encourage it to go before the House of Delegates again. Thanks for allowing me to respond. Tom Howell, P.T., M.P.T. Howell Physical Therapy Eagle, ID ptclinic@... Re: PTA's and joint mobs Am I the only one against? Simonetti, PT Chestertown, MD > > Group, > How bout an informal survey? > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 As I stand firmly in opposition to the APTA in this, and Tom (who is strongly in agreement) has done the right thing and listed points of argument, I thought I would get some finger exercise and respond to the points. 1) Is manipulation something that requires ongoing assessment and evaluation, skills traditionally reserved for the physical therapist, or do you consider that parts of manipulation do not require the skills of a physical therapist? This point is taken from a false premise: that PTAs do not make evaluative decisions. PTAs can and do make such decisions, all the time, within the context of the treatment procedures they employ. Every time a muscle is stretched, for example, there is an evaluative process going on, based, among other things, on the immediate patient response (How far to go? How hard to push? Is a certain level of pain appropriate?). No one disputes that a PTA can safely stretch a hamstring (an exercise, needless to say, that we routinely teach to patients). What we (should) mean when we say that PTAs can't evaluate is that PTAs cannot synthesize and interpret the entire constellation of clinical and other information available to us that we use to make treatment decisions. To extend that into the ongoing details of how a particular modality is affecting a patient is spreading the peanut butter too thin. 2) If we allow PTA's to do spinal manipulation will it hurt our efforts to fight the chiropractic attacks against our ability to practice manipulation as we are trained? I would like to hope that our definitions of quality could remain happily outside the ugly perimeter of reimbursement wars, but I see that's a foolish notion. I will merely say here that those chiros who maintain that our training in manipulation is inadequate to protect patient safety should be required to explain how so many PTAs have mobilized joints for so long without significant problems. 3) Does allowing PTA's and techs to do procedures that are recommended as only in the realm of the PT hurt the profession? Recommended by whom? Not by me! The APTA has made a bad recommendation, then explains that not following it will hurt the profession because, well, because the profession would be out of step with the recommendation. That sort of circularity can be easily fixed by withdrawing the recommendation. 4) Does the education of the PTA and the completion of continuing education prepare the PTA to do manipulation? A good question, for which I have no direct answer. Nevertheless I can say that both PTAs who work with me here at Laurel Health System were taught mobilization in school, and afterward attended related CE courses (side by side with PTs!). Seems to me that the supervising PT would have to answer that. 5) What are the ramifications to reimbursement? First, see #2 above. Then think about what is ethical here. If a procedure can be safely and effectively performed by cheaper personnel, then why on earth would we stand in the way? I can recall a similar storm years ago when some PTs were lamenting losing the right to apply hot packs. If that sounds quaint, it is, but the point is that often the reimbursement tail wags the clinical dog. 6) What are the ramifications to state practice acts? I'm not sure what the point is here, but will say that at least one previous post on this subject reminded us that the APTA was merely taking a position, not making a ruling. But whatever you call it, the effect is the same. Among other things, this " position " facilitates the like changing of state practice acts. It also has the effect of a " ruling " for the reason that Ken Mailly earlier explained: Any lawyer worth his salt will exploit it in a malpractice claim. A rose by any other name... Dave Milano, PT Director of Rehab Services Laurel Health System Re: PTA's and joint mobs Am I the only one against? Simonetti, PT Chestertown, MD > > Group, > How bout an informal survey? > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 , So you're saying that PTA's shouldn't be hands-on at all? Are we only able to turn on stim machines, do US, and teach/supervise patients in the gym? PTA's are far more educated than that. I know our PTA's didn't just go to school to do modalities only. You must not know how to utilize your PTA's. Anyone else agree with me? The PT may not always be the " best person to do the job. " I know of PTA's who have their own case load and report to the PT any changes the pt has made, or check with the PT to change anything with the pt's Rx. The pt. only sees the PT somestimes once a week so he/she can stay up to date with the pt's progress. Some pts may prefer to see a particular PTA rather than the PT. I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you need to get off your pedestal and realize that PTA's can do a lot more than what you lead on. PTA's are aware of their practice act and know not to do anything to jeopardize their license (or at least they shouldn't)!! , CPC-PTA Billing Administrator lin Physical Therapy, LLC s wrote: , You can count me in as against as well, simply too much room for overutilization. We all come on here and say yes, but only if the PTA is trained, ect.. The problem is that there are too many places that utilize far too many PTA's per PT and far too many places that don't care how well the PTA is trained, only whether or not they can bill for the PTA's time. My philosophy and that of my clinic is that we need to make every effort possible to meet or exceed the expectations of the patient when they walk through our door. The patient's expectation when they enter a Physical Therapist's office to recieve Physical Therapy is that the person performing their care will be a Physical Therapist. We need to meet that expectation. I know some great PTA's and hope I don't offend but this is simply the way I feel I would want to be treated, the best person to do the job, the one most qualified and skilled, should be the PT, not the PTA; each patient deserves that. E. s, PT, DPT, OCS s Orthopedic & Spine Rehabilitation, Inc. Bonita Springs, Fla -- In PTManager , " " wrote: > Am I the only one against? > > Simonetti, PT > Chestertown, MD > > > > > > > Group, > > How bout an informal survey? > > > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > > Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 , So you're saying that PTA's shouldn't be hands-on at all? Are we only able to turn on stim machines, do US, and teach/supervise patients in the gym? PTA's are far more educated than that. I know our PTA's didn't just go to school to do modalities only. You must not know how to utilize your PTA's. Anyone else agree with me? The PT may not always be the " best person to do the job. " I know of PTA's who have their own case load and report to the PT any changes the pt has made, or check with the PT to change anything with the pt's Rx. The pt. only sees the PT somestimes once a week so he/she can stay up to date with the pt's progress. Some pts may prefer to see a particular PTA rather than the PT. I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you need to get off your pedestal and realize that PTA's can do a lot more than what you lead on. PTA's are aware of their practice act and know not to do anything to jeopardize their license (or at least they shouldn't)!! , CPC-PTA Billing Administrator lin Physical Therapy, LLC s wrote: , You can count me in as against as well, simply too much room for overutilization. We all come on here and say yes, but only if the PTA is trained, ect.. The problem is that there are too many places that utilize far too many PTA's per PT and far too many places that don't care how well the PTA is trained, only whether or not they can bill for the PTA's time. My philosophy and that of my clinic is that we need to make every effort possible to meet or exceed the expectations of the patient when they walk through our door. The patient's expectation when they enter a Physical Therapist's office to recieve Physical Therapy is that the person performing their care will be a Physical Therapist. We need to meet that expectation. I know some great PTA's and hope I don't offend but this is simply the way I feel I would want to be treated, the best person to do the job, the one most qualified and skilled, should be the PT, not the PTA; each patient deserves that. E. s, PT, DPT, OCS s Orthopedic & Spine Rehabilitation, Inc. Bonita Springs, Fla -- In PTManager , " " wrote: > Am I the only one against? > > Simonetti, PT > Chestertown, MD > > > > > > > Group, > > How bout an informal survey? > > > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > > Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 , So you're saying that PTA's shouldn't be hands-on at all? Are we only able to turn on stim machines, do US, and teach/supervise patients in the gym? PTA's are far more educated than that. I know our PTA's didn't just go to school to do modalities only. You must not know how to utilize your PTA's. Anyone else agree with me? The PT may not always be the " best person to do the job. " I know of PTA's who have their own case load and report to the PT any changes the pt has made, or check with the PT to change anything with the pt's Rx. The pt. only sees the PT somestimes once a week so he/she can stay up to date with the pt's progress. Some pts may prefer to see a particular PTA rather than the PT. I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you need to get off your pedestal and realize that PTA's can do a lot more than what you lead on. PTA's are aware of their practice act and know not to do anything to jeopardize their license (or at least they shouldn't)!! , CPC-PTA Billing Administrator lin Physical Therapy, LLC s wrote: , You can count me in as against as well, simply too much room for overutilization. We all come on here and say yes, but only if the PTA is trained, ect.. The problem is that there are too many places that utilize far too many PTA's per PT and far too many places that don't care how well the PTA is trained, only whether or not they can bill for the PTA's time. My philosophy and that of my clinic is that we need to make every effort possible to meet or exceed the expectations of the patient when they walk through our door. The patient's expectation when they enter a Physical Therapist's office to recieve Physical Therapy is that the person performing their care will be a Physical Therapist. We need to meet that expectation. I know some great PTA's and hope I don't offend but this is simply the way I feel I would want to be treated, the best person to do the job, the one most qualified and skilled, should be the PT, not the PTA; each patient deserves that. E. s, PT, DPT, OCS s Orthopedic & Spine Rehabilitation, Inc. Bonita Springs, Fla -- In PTManager , " " wrote: > Am I the only one against? > > Simonetti, PT > Chestertown, MD > > > > > > > Group, > > How bout an informal survey? > > > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > > Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 With that said there are plenty of PT's out there that are not qualified and skilled to be many mobilization techniques. As professionals we would know what to ask and look for but the lay patient may think that they were getting proper treatment when in reality they may not. I think PT's as well as PTA's just need the adequate schooling and continuing education before they try to use ANY technique on a patient. Jacquelyn Andres, MS,PT Re: PTA's and joint mobs , You can count me in as against as well, simply too much room for overutilization. We all come on here and say yes, but only if the PTA is trained, ect.. The problem is that there are too many places that utilize far too many PTA's per PT and far too many places that don't care how well the PTA is trained, only whether or not they can bill for the PTA's time. My philosophy and that of my clinic is that we need to make every effort possible to meet or exceed the expectations of the patient when they walk through our door. The patient's expectation when they enter a Physical Therapist's office to recieve Physical Therapy is that the person performing their care will be a Physical Therapist. We need to meet that expectation. I know some great PTA's and hope I don't offend but this is simply the way I feel I would want to be treated, the best person to do the job, the one most qualified and skilled, should be the PT, not the PTA; each patient deserves that. E. s, PT, DPT, OCS s Orthopedic & Spine Rehabilitation, Inc. Bonita Springs, Fla -- In PTManager , " " <paulpt@d...> wrote: > Am I the only one against? > > Simonetti, PT > Chestertown, MD > > > > > > > Group, > > How bout an informal survey? > > > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > > Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 With that said there are plenty of PT's out there that are not qualified and skilled to be many mobilization techniques. As professionals we would know what to ask and look for but the lay patient may think that they were getting proper treatment when in reality they may not. I think PT's as well as PTA's just need the adequate schooling and continuing education before they try to use ANY technique on a patient. Jacquelyn Andres, MS,PT Re: PTA's and joint mobs , You can count me in as against as well, simply too much room for overutilization. We all come on here and say yes, but only if the PTA is trained, ect.. The problem is that there are too many places that utilize far too many PTA's per PT and far too many places that don't care how well the PTA is trained, only whether or not they can bill for the PTA's time. My philosophy and that of my clinic is that we need to make every effort possible to meet or exceed the expectations of the patient when they walk through our door. The patient's expectation when they enter a Physical Therapist's office to recieve Physical Therapy is that the person performing their care will be a Physical Therapist. We need to meet that expectation. I know some great PTA's and hope I don't offend but this is simply the way I feel I would want to be treated, the best person to do the job, the one most qualified and skilled, should be the PT, not the PTA; each patient deserves that. E. s, PT, DPT, OCS s Orthopedic & Spine Rehabilitation, Inc. Bonita Springs, Fla -- In PTManager , " " <paulpt@d...> wrote: > Am I the only one against? > > Simonetti, PT > Chestertown, MD > > > > > > > Group, > > How bout an informal survey? > > > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > > Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 Great Discussion on PTA's. Sounds like, if you work with/Supervise PTA's they should be getting the bulk of continuing education so they can be very competent in their area of treatment. I just received a post from the APTA " Help your PTA staff obtain the recognition that they have earned! Promote life-long learning with your PTA staff! " " The American Physical Therapy Association is pleased to announce... Recognition of Advanced Proficiency for the Physical Therapist Assistant " . Should we be waving the carrot in front of the PTA and then say. Your good, but not that good. I am confident about my PTA's abilities and I am in direct sight of the care they provide. I feel competent and confident with their care.I have met some PT's with questionable science backgrounds and some PTA's with more science backround than myself. Yes, if you want to be a PT go to PT school I agree. I also agree with Brett. If we are not going to utilize them, why have them. Aides can change the sheets and fold towels. Russ Case PT --- " Unger, Pam " wrote: > I think you are entitled to your opinion, but you > have a very narrow > focus of what the PTA is educated to do. I really > question the basic > science background of the PTA. > Pam Unger > > Re: PTA's and joint mobs > > > > Am I the only one against? > > > > Simonetti, PT > > Chestertown, MD > > > > > > > > > > > > Group, > > > How bout an informal survey? > > > > > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking to start your own Practice? > > Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. > > Bring PTManager to your organization or State > Association with a > > professional workshop or course - call us at 313 > 884-8920 to arrange > > PTManager encourages participation in your > professional association. > > Join and participate now! > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 Great Discussion on PTA's. Sounds like, if you work with/Supervise PTA's they should be getting the bulk of continuing education so they can be very competent in their area of treatment. I just received a post from the APTA " Help your PTA staff obtain the recognition that they have earned! Promote life-long learning with your PTA staff! " " The American Physical Therapy Association is pleased to announce... Recognition of Advanced Proficiency for the Physical Therapist Assistant " . Should we be waving the carrot in front of the PTA and then say. Your good, but not that good. I am confident about my PTA's abilities and I am in direct sight of the care they provide. I feel competent and confident with their care.I have met some PT's with questionable science backgrounds and some PTA's with more science backround than myself. Yes, if you want to be a PT go to PT school I agree. I also agree with Brett. If we are not going to utilize them, why have them. Aides can change the sheets and fold towels. Russ Case PT --- " Unger, Pam " wrote: > I think you are entitled to your opinion, but you > have a very narrow > focus of what the PTA is educated to do. I really > question the basic > science background of the PTA. > Pam Unger > > Re: PTA's and joint mobs > > > > Am I the only one against? > > > > Simonetti, PT > > Chestertown, MD > > > > > > > > > > > > Group, > > > How bout an informal survey? > > > > > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking to start your own Practice? > > Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. > > Bring PTManager to your organization or State > Association with a > > professional workshop or course - call us at 313 > 884-8920 to arrange > > PTManager encourages participation in your > professional association. > > Join and participate now! > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 I don't see your point. You say I have a narrow focus of what the PTA can do and you're absolutely right - I have a very narrow focus with which I utilize PTA's. I use them for very specific things. You're questioning their science background. Where are you coming from? Are you for or against? Brett Windsor, PT, OCS, COMT, FAAOMPT Director of Ancillary Services The Vancouver Clinic (office) Re: PTA's and joint mobs > > Am I the only one against? > > Simonetti, PT > Chestertown, MD > > > > > > > Group, > > How bout an informal survey? > > > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > > > > > > > > > > Looking to start your own Practice? > Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. > Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a > professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange > PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. > Join and participate now! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 I don't see your point. You say I have a narrow focus of what the PTA can do and you're absolutely right - I have a very narrow focus with which I utilize PTA's. I use them for very specific things. You're questioning their science background. Where are you coming from? Are you for or against? Brett Windsor, PT, OCS, COMT, FAAOMPT Director of Ancillary Services The Vancouver Clinic (office) Re: PTA's and joint mobs > > Am I the only one against? > > Simonetti, PT > Chestertown, MD > > > > > > > Group, > > How bout an informal survey? > > > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > > > > > > > > > > Looking to start your own Practice? > Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. > Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a > professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange > PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. > Join and participate now! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 , Well put! I applaud your vigor! And yes some of us, the majority of this group in fact, are with you! I did not keep a formal tally since starting this post but I wish I did. To take this function away from PTA's in clinics specializing in OP ortho, and in medically underserved areas such as the one I practice in, will really make it difficult to serve the needs of my patients. Why are we as PT's not allowed the same freedom an MD has in utilizing a PA? Or a dentist utilizing a tech? An orthopedic surgeon utilizing his assistant in the OR? Those of you who have spent time in the OR know that these assistants dig right in and get very hands on. I believe if we go this route we are essentially saying that we as a whole (PT's) are not professional enough to police ourselves and ultimately properly utilize a PTA. Is this the image we want to convey? Are we not constantly trying to overcome the " paraprofessional " light that many MD's see us in? Will this help us overcome that stigma? I fail to see how it will. In the face of a growing PT shortage, which is really a gross understatement in many areas, are we going to have to turn patients away? If I am forced to do every mob on all of my shoulder patients alone I very well might have to do that. I'm sure there will be many others ready and waiting to accept these patients. Chiropractors offering " rehab " , retired orthopods with their new fangled machines offering the magic cure for that LBP, ATC's, Personal Trainers,.... Where are we going here? Not good for our profession! Re: Re: PTA's and joint mobs , So you're saying that PTA's shouldn't be hands-on at all? Are we only able to turn on stim machines, do US, and teach/supervise patients in the gym? PTA's are far more educated than that. I know our PTA's didn't just go to school to do modalities only. You must not know how to utilize your PTA's. Anyone else agree with me? The PT may not always be the " best person to do the job. " I know of PTA's who have their own case load and report to the PT any changes the pt has made, or check with the PT to change anything with the pt's Rx. The pt. only sees the PT somestimes once a week so he/she can stay up to date with the pt's progress. Some pts may prefer to see a particular PTA rather than the PT. I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you need to get off your pedestal and realize that PTA's can do a lot more than what you lead on. PTA's are aware of their practice act and know not to do anything to jeopardize their license (or at least they shouldn't)!! , CPC-PTA Billing Administrator lin Physical Therapy, LLC s wrote: , You can count me in as against as well, simply too much room for overutilization. We all come on here and say yes, but only if the PTA is trained, ect.. The problem is that there are too many places that utilize far too many PTA's per PT and far too many places that don't care how well the PTA is trained, only whether or not they can bill for the PTA's time. My philosophy and that of my clinic is that we need to make every effort possible to meet or exceed the expectations of the patient when they walk through our door. The patient's expectation when they enter a Physical Therapist's office to recieve Physical Therapy is that the person performing their care will be a Physical Therapist. We need to meet that expectation. I know some great PTA's and hope I don't offend but this is simply the way I feel I would want to be treated, the best person to do the job, the one most qualified and skilled, should be the PT, not the PTA; each patient deserves that. E. s, PT, DPT, OCS s Orthopedic & Spine Rehabilitation, Inc. Bonita Springs, Fla -- In PTManager , " " wrote: > Am I the only one against? > > Simonetti, PT > Chestertown, MD > > > > > > > Group, > > How bout an informal survey? > > > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > > Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 , Well put! I applaud your vigor! And yes some of us, the majority of this group in fact, are with you! I did not keep a formal tally since starting this post but I wish I did. To take this function away from PTA's in clinics specializing in OP ortho, and in medically underserved areas such as the one I practice in, will really make it difficult to serve the needs of my patients. Why are we as PT's not allowed the same freedom an MD has in utilizing a PA? Or a dentist utilizing a tech? An orthopedic surgeon utilizing his assistant in the OR? Those of you who have spent time in the OR know that these assistants dig right in and get very hands on. I believe if we go this route we are essentially saying that we as a whole (PT's) are not professional enough to police ourselves and ultimately properly utilize a PTA. Is this the image we want to convey? Are we not constantly trying to overcome the " paraprofessional " light that many MD's see us in? Will this help us overcome that stigma? I fail to see how it will. In the face of a growing PT shortage, which is really a gross understatement in many areas, are we going to have to turn patients away? If I am forced to do every mob on all of my shoulder patients alone I very well might have to do that. I'm sure there will be many others ready and waiting to accept these patients. Chiropractors offering " rehab " , retired orthopods with their new fangled machines offering the magic cure for that LBP, ATC's, Personal Trainers,.... Where are we going here? Not good for our profession! Re: Re: PTA's and joint mobs , So you're saying that PTA's shouldn't be hands-on at all? Are we only able to turn on stim machines, do US, and teach/supervise patients in the gym? PTA's are far more educated than that. I know our PTA's didn't just go to school to do modalities only. You must not know how to utilize your PTA's. Anyone else agree with me? The PT may not always be the " best person to do the job. " I know of PTA's who have their own case load and report to the PT any changes the pt has made, or check with the PT to change anything with the pt's Rx. The pt. only sees the PT somestimes once a week so he/she can stay up to date with the pt's progress. Some pts may prefer to see a particular PTA rather than the PT. I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you need to get off your pedestal and realize that PTA's can do a lot more than what you lead on. PTA's are aware of their practice act and know not to do anything to jeopardize their license (or at least they shouldn't)!! , CPC-PTA Billing Administrator lin Physical Therapy, LLC s wrote: , You can count me in as against as well, simply too much room for overutilization. We all come on here and say yes, but only if the PTA is trained, ect.. The problem is that there are too many places that utilize far too many PTA's per PT and far too many places that don't care how well the PTA is trained, only whether or not they can bill for the PTA's time. My philosophy and that of my clinic is that we need to make every effort possible to meet or exceed the expectations of the patient when they walk through our door. The patient's expectation when they enter a Physical Therapist's office to recieve Physical Therapy is that the person performing their care will be a Physical Therapist. We need to meet that expectation. I know some great PTA's and hope I don't offend but this is simply the way I feel I would want to be treated, the best person to do the job, the one most qualified and skilled, should be the PT, not the PTA; each patient deserves that. E. s, PT, DPT, OCS s Orthopedic & Spine Rehabilitation, Inc. Bonita Springs, Fla -- In PTManager , " " wrote: > Am I the only one against? > > Simonetti, PT > Chestertown, MD > > > > > > > Group, > > How bout an informal survey? > > > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > > Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 I would like clarification on the discussion of mobilization with PTA's and manipulation with PTA's. The terminology is being used interchangeably, yet I don't believe we are all talking the same talk. Mobilization is not manipulation. I would appreciate clarification of this. Marsha Rutland, PT, MEd, OCS, CSCS Re: PTA's and joint mobs Am I the only one against? Simonetti, PT Chestertown, MD > > Group, > How bout an informal survey? > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 I would like clarification on the discussion of mobilization with PTA's and manipulation with PTA's. The terminology is being used interchangeably, yet I don't believe we are all talking the same talk. Mobilization is not manipulation. I would appreciate clarification of this. Marsha Rutland, PT, MEd, OCS, CSCS Re: PTA's and joint mobs Am I the only one against? Simonetti, PT Chestertown, MD > > Group, > How bout an informal survey? > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 I would like clarification on the discussion of mobilization with PTA's and manipulation with PTA's. The terminology is being used interchangeably, yet I don't believe we are all talking the same talk. Mobilization is not manipulation. I would appreciate clarification of this. Marsha Rutland, PT, MEd, OCS, CSCS Re: PTA's and joint mobs Am I the only one against? Simonetti, PT Chestertown, MD > > Group, > How bout an informal survey? > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 Pam, If your saying PTA's are not properly educated then should'nt the APTA cease to endorse their existence? Re: PTA's and joint mobs > > Am I the only one against? > > Simonetti, PT > Chestertown, MD > > > > > > > Group, > > How bout an informal survey? > > > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > > > > > > > > > > Looking to start your own Practice? > Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. > Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a > professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange > PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. > Join and participate now! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2005 Report Share Posted July 20, 2005 Pam, If your saying PTA's are not properly educated then should'nt the APTA cease to endorse their existence? Re: PTA's and joint mobs > > Am I the only one against? > > Simonetti, PT > Chestertown, MD > > > > > > > Group, > > How bout an informal survey? > > > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > > > > > > > > > > Looking to start your own Practice? > Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. > Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a > professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange > PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. > Join and participate now! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 " The therapy is always delivered by the therapist " , that's an interesting statement. Care to elaborate? And yes, I absolutely disagree but am wondering where you're coming from with this. jeff overstreet pta delray beach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 " The therapy is always delivered by the therapist " , that's an interesting statement. Care to elaborate? And yes, I absolutely disagree but am wondering where you're coming from with this. jeff overstreet pta delray beach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 " The therapy is always delivered by the therapist " , that's an interesting statement. Care to elaborate? And yes, I absolutely disagree but am wondering where you're coming from with this. jeff overstreet pta delray beach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2005 Report Share Posted July 21, 2005 No I did not say they were not properly educated. Just take a look at there science background at least from an anatomy perspective. I really wish I could support all of you on this issue, but it is my personal opinion that the PTA does not have the proper anatomy background. While I am sure some of it can be taught. I believe the gross anatomy is essential. I also believe that mobilization/manipulation is an evaluative procedure, how does that fit into PTA practice. Having said all of that, I am fairly certain there are some PTA's that our colleagues can be taught. My biggest concern is the PT that does not appropriately teach and monitor the PTA. Also remember the PTA still only has a 2 year degree, which is not comparable to the PA or Chiro. Pam Re: PTA's and joint mobs > > Am I the only one against? > > Simonetti, PT > Chestertown, MD > > > > > > > Group, > > How bout an informal survey? > > > > For or against PTA's performing joint mobs? > > > > > > > > > > Looking to start your own Practice? > Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. > Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a > professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange > PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. > Join and participate now! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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