Re: TKR

[Guest guest]

,

Where does the money come from to pay all the peoples

medical expense? You cannot possibly believe that

the portion people pay actually covers the cost.

Sherry

Re: TKRthe problem is our American system has become to socialized likeCanada and has gone down hill from there. Medicine was muchbetter when doctors made house calls and had PRIVATE PRACTICES.There were NO HMO's. Now doctors have a slew of people just todo paperwork and things in the medical profession have gone to hellin a handcart. When the #1 cause of death in the US are medicalmistakes you know there is a huge problem. It never used to bethis way. The US was #1 in health care. Pretty much like ourpublic school system.Sherry

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[Guest guest]

Sherry and

what a great debate you have going on here

I have private insurance and would not be without it for many reasons

Everybody in Aust has access to Medicare but if you need elective surgery you WAIT up to 2 years for a hip or knee and there is no way in the world that I would wait that long or anything that was causing me pain

However, it does cost about 1000-1500 a year for private insurance without extra payments for PT,dentists and other allied health

I used to work in the public system and I think that there are good and bad hospitals (and surgeons) everywhere but what annoys me more is that when people complain they have to wait for surgery in the public system when they have probably had the money to pay for private insurance but choose not to do so and spend there money on other things

Hence the Aus government cotton on to this and now make people who earn over 50 K pay an extra medicare levi or buy private insurance

Emergencies happen and people here are always pretty much taken care of but I am angrey that people think that health cover should be free for all and put a huge strain on waiting lists in public hospitals

Aussie

-- RE: TKR

Sherry--

Why can't you believe that it doesn't? First of all, there is no "suing mania" here... so healthcare providers' insurance rates are far lower than the ones in the US (this is a major item in the cost accounting of US healthcare providers).

Few people carry only the "basic package"... many take out the additions, and pay for them at a realistic rate. The fact that few people use the additional coverage to the maximum makes up part of the difference. The budget of the Ministry of Health makes up any shortfall, which has not been much in recent years.

The "sick funds" providing the actual care have streamlined themselves for service efficiency over the years, and provide realistic treatment on the basis of need, and not cost. MRIs, which I see on this board frequently, are normally not prescribed for joint replacements... x-rays are generally sufficient for diagnosing.

Instead of believing the horror stories of the lobbyists, take a look at places where the socialzed medicine systems actually work... and if you feel you must, you can always "go private"... that option is not taken away from you.

BTW, do you believe that your insurance premium covers all your costs, once you actually need more than run-of-the-mill doctor's visits? Let me assure you that it doesn't.

Greywolf - RTHR-2003; LTHR-2004

mdavisonnetvision (DOT) net.il

From: Joint Replacement [mailto:Joint Replacement ] On Behalf Of S.A.M.Sent: 29 October, 2006 10:46 AMJoint Replacement Subject: Re: TKR

,

Where does the money come from to pay all the peoples

medical expense? You cannot possibly believe that

the portion people pay actually covers the cost.

Sherry

Re: TKRthe problem is our American system has become to socialized likeCanada and has gone down hill from there. Medicine was muchbetter when doctors made house calls and had PRIVATE PRACTICES.There were NO HMO's. Now doctors have a slew of people just todo paperwork and things in the medical profession have gone to hellin a handcart. When the #1 cause of death in the US are medicalmistakes you know there is a huge problem. It never used to bethis way. The US was #1 in health care. Pretty much like ourpublic school system.Sherry

My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.digiportal.com. __________ NOD32 1.1842 (20061027) Information __________This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.http://www.eset.com__________ NOD32 1.1842 (20061027) Information __________This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.http://www.eset.com

[Guest guest]

It is an interesting debate, and one on which you and I differ .

I was so proud of Keating (Ex-Prime Minister here in OZ) when he

refused to take out private health insurance. He was saying he trusted

medicare and our health system to come through if he or his family needed

it.

The way I see it, if everyone had no choice but to go public then the public

system would be a first class system. If you have a two tier system then

the poor, who often suffer poorer health through the society structures and

stresses, are again slapped in the face by the wealthy.

I know that is a political stance I am taking, and I am not asking anyone to

agree. Just stating a different point of view.

Aussie Margaret

RTHR 1990 revised 2004

RE: TKR

Sherry and

what a great debate you have going on here

I have private insurance and would not be without it for many reasons

Everybody in Aust has access to Medicare but if you need elective surgery

you WAIT up to 2 years for a hip or knee and there is no way in the world

that I would wait that long or anything that was causing me pain

However, it does cost about 1000-1500 a year for private insurance without

extra payments for PT,dentists and other allied health

I used to work in the public system and I think that there are good and bad

hospitals (and surgeons) everywhere but what annoys me more is that when

people complain they have to wait for surgery in the public system when they

have probably had the money to pay for private insurance but choose not to

do so and spend there money on other things

Hence the Aus government cotton on to this and now make people who earn over

50 K pay an extra medicare levi or buy private insurance

Emergencies happen and people here are always pretty much taken care of but

I am angrey that people think that health cover should be free for all and

put a huge strain on waiting lists in public hospitals

Aussie

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.

[Guest guest]

I would have been right there behind the republicans regarding

Clinton's healthcare plan. That was scary. I will be the first to

agree though that our health care sure needs to be revamped but not the

way Clinton wanted to do it.

On Oct 29, 2006, at 12:07 AM, on wrote:

> S.A.M.--

>  

> The healthcare sysytem in the US is anything but socialized.  It has

> become a purely private business, with all the corner-cutting and

> minimum service provision and maximum charge that the insurance

> companies can get away with.

>  

> If you want someone to blame for this, blame, in order of importance:

> 1) the Republican Party, which defeated the Clinton healthcare bill

> (and felt very proud of itself for doing so, btw); 2) the insurance

> companies that lobbied to kill the healthcare bill, and; 3) the AMA,

> which supported the insurance companies.

>  

> Healthcare has gone to Hell in a breadbasket in the US, to the point

> where I'm very happy that my healthcare is socialized.  To explain

> what that means, very simply: I pay a premium, which is a certain

> percentage of my income, for a " basic package " of services, defined by

> the Ministry of Health, and uniform throughout the healthcare sector,

> which is actually operated by about half-a dozen " sick funds " ...

> private companies that provide services in accordance with the

> Ministry of Health requirements, and under its auspices.

>  

> Anyone wanting additional insurance pays for the extras, either as

> they happen, or in a monthly premium to cover certain possibilities. 

> My sick fund had the levels of additions, each with more treatments

> covered than the previous level.

>  

> For two THRs, I paid absolutely nothing.  This includes: all

> preliminary lab tests, imaging requirements, etc., stay in hospital,

> surgery, anesthesiologist, PT in the hospital, transportation home

> after surgery in a private ambulance, 6 weeks of home visit PT and 6

> weeks of outpatient PT at my local sick fund clinic, and all follow-up

> blood tests and imaging.  The only thing I paid for were the 10 days

> of anticoagulants after release from the hospital and the bandages I

> covered the surgical incision with for 2 weeks (and the health fund

> paid 75% of the meds, 50% of the dressings).

>  

> After my first surgery, I found out that THRs and TKRs are included in

> the " basic package " .  In other words, necessary surgery is available

> to all, no matter what their financial situation.  Granted, there are

> sometimes waiting lists, depending on the particular hospital you

> choose, and you may not necessarily be able to choose your surgeon

> (working in the medical device industry, I had enough connections to

> be able to choose), but the services are available to all, and

> affordable to all.

>  

> That's what socialized medicine is supposed to be about... (and the

> doctors don't complain, either).

>  

> It could be germane to note that part of the high cost in health care

> is the " lawsuit mania " ... the company I worked for stopped exporting

> devices to the US because the legal costs for fighting frivolous

> lawsuits was too high to make it worthwhile.  Manufacturer's journals

> have noted that a large number of European manufacturers have done the

> same, including chemical supply companies, such as du Pont (France),

> who are the sole suppliers for certain raw materials that go into

> artificial heart valves.  Suing everyone down to the janitor who

> cleaned the OR and the company that pumped the crude petroleum used to

> make the plastic of a medical device are counter-productive, and will,

> in the long run, guarantee that a) there will be a mass exodus

> overseas for treatments that become unavailable in the US due to lack

> of devices or materials to manufacture them, and a black market of

> such devices and materials in the US, driving their cost up even more.

>  

> The only people who get rich off these lawsuits are the lawyers, the

> people who actually suffered a loss get peanuts (if the decision is in

> their favor at all). 

>  

> Greywolf - RTHR-2003; LTHR-2004

> mdavison@...

>

> From: Joint Replacement

> [mailto:Joint Replacement ] On Behalf Of Ann

>

> Sent: 29 October, 2006 1:38 AM

> Joint Replacement

> Subject: Re: TKR

>

>  

>> American medicine has become the opposite of socialized.  It's

>> become for-profit.  This causes the Big Businesses that own them to

>> slash everything they can, including treatments, to make big profits

>> for their investors and obscene salaries, bonuses, and retirements

>> for their execs.  They invented the HMO model.  It was that that

>> stopped house calls.  And the insurance companies discovered that

>> they could make a lot more profit by denying services, keeping office

>> visits to 15 min (how ridiculous is that?), reducing access to

>> expensive tests that could save lives, like MRIs.  And a lot of

>> doctors for some incomprehensible reason bought into it (I don't mean

>> they chose it -- they didn't have a choice, but they Believed).  If

>> the AMA had risen up and roared loud enough in 1991 when it all

>> started, they could have prevented it, but they didn't.  The only

>> reason I can think of is that doctors thought they were gods back

>> then and maybe assumed that they couldn't be hurt by the change.  Now

>> they get paid less & punished (in some clinics) for Rx'ing MRIs or

>> referrals.  When I had my horrible back pain for 2 years back in

>> '94-'96, I asked my doc to refer me to an orthopedist so he could

>> evaluate my spine (I'd had an acute injury of indeterminate cause

>> that resulted in my whole body being in pain) and she said " Oh, you

>> don't need an orthopedist " because she had a small practice and any

>> money paid to a specialist would have to come out of her pocket. 

>> That's why there are fewer independent doctors nowadays.  And wait

>> till you get on Medicare.  Good luck finding a doc if you're a new

>> patient.  Our " socialized " medicine doesn't pay them enough.  80% of

>> docs here in Olympia won't take new Medicare patients.  And I found

>> out that the medi-gap your insurance may offer doesn't pay the doc

>> the difference between what Medicare pays and what your insurance

>> would normally pay (with you paying 20% of that, of course) -- the

>> doc gets no more than what Medicare pays (which is only 80% of what

>> they say the cost should be).  The difference is that you don't have

>> to cough up the Medicare 20% -- your medigap covers that.  So having

>> medigap won't get you a doc if that doc doesn't take new Medicare

>> patients.  " New " means you've never seen that particular doc before. 

>> So if you come down with kidney failure & need a nephrologist, forget

>> it if you're on Medicare.  Make sure you contract all your diseases

>> before you hit 65.

>> Ann S.

>>  

>>

>> Re: TKR

>>

>>

>> the problem is our American system has become to socialized like

>> Canada and has gone down hill from there.  Medicine was much

>> better when doctors made house calls and had PRIVATE PRACTICES.

>> There were NO HMO's.  Now doctors have a slew of people just to

>> do paperwork and things in the medical profession have gone to hell

>> in a handcart.  When the #1 cause of death in the US are medical

>> mistakes you know there is a huge problem.  It never used to be

>> this way.  The US was #1 in health care.  Pretty much like our

>> public school system.

>>

>> Sherry

>>

> My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and

> corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail

> from www.digiportal.com.

>

>

The Bible is the only book in which the Author is always present.

[Guest guest]

I don't see what's scary about healthcare for all-- especially since many Americans are only one or two paychecks away from being unable to even afford a visit to the doctor, much less more complex treatments. From where I stand, any change would have been an improvement on the present system where a bean counter from the insurance company tells the healthcare professionals what they can and can not prescribe.

This would be like having a grocery store clerk who knows nothing about cars telling your mechanic what he can and can't take care of on your car.

Greywolf - RTHR-2003; LTHR-2004

mdavison@...

From: Joint Replacement [mailto:Joint Replacement ] On Behalf Of Elaine PoageSent: 29 October, 2006 7:08 PMJoint Replacement Subject: Re: TKR

I would have been right there behind the republicans regarding Clinton's healthcare plan. That was scary. I will be the first to agree though that our health care sure needs to be revamped but not the way Clinton wanted to do it.On Oct 29, 2006, at 12:07 AM, on wrote:

S.A.M.-- The healthcare sysytem in the US is anything but socialized. It has become a purely private business, with all the corner-cutting and minimum service provision and maximum charge that the insurance companies can get away with. If you want someone to blame for this, blame, in order of importance: 1) the Republican Party, which defeated the Clinton healthcare bill (and felt very proud of itself for doing so, btw); 2) the insurance companies that lobbied to kill the healthcare bill, and; 3) the AMA, which supported the insurance companies. Healthcare has gone to Hell in a breadbasket in the US, to the point where I'm very happy that my healthcare is socialized. To explain what that means, very simply: I pay a premium, which is a certain percentage of my income, for a "basic package" of services, defined by the Ministry of Health, and uniform throughout the healthcare sector, which is actually operated by about half-a dozen "sick funds"... private companies that provide services in accordance with the Ministry of Health requirements, and under its auspices. Anyone wanting additional insurance pays for the extras, either as they happen, or in a monthly premium to cover certain possibilities. My sick fund had the levels of additions, each with more treatments covered than the previous level. For two THRs, I paid absolutely nothing. This includes: all preliminary lab tests, imaging requirements, etc., stay in hospital, surgery, anesthesiologist, PT in the hospital, transportation home after surgery in a private ambulance, 6 weeks of home visit PT and 6 weeks of outpatient PT at my local sick fund clinic, and all follow-up blood tests and imaging. The only thing I paid for were the 10 days of anticoagulants after release from the hospital and the bandages I covered the surgical incision with for 2 weeks (and the health fund paid 75% of the meds, 50% of the dressings). After my first surgery, I found out that THRs and TKRs are included in the "basic package". In other words, necessary surgery is available to all, no matter what their financial situation. Granted, there are sometimes waiting lists, depending on the particular hospital you choose, and you may not necessarily be able to choose your surgeon (working in the medical device industry, I had enough connections to be able to choose), but the services are available to all, and affordable to all. That's what socialized medicine is supposed to be about... (and the doctors don't complain, either). It could be germane to note that part of the high cost in health care is the "lawsuit mania"... the company I worked for stopped exporting devices to the US because the legal costs for fighting frivolous lawsuits was too high to make it worthwhile. Manufacturer's journals have noted that a large number of European manufacturers have done the same, including chemical supply companies, such as du Pont (France), who are the sole suppliers for certain raw materials that go into artificial heart valves. Suing everyone down to the janitor who cleaned the OR and the company that pumped the crude petroleum used to make the plastic of a medical device are counter-productive, and will, in the long run, guarantee that a) there will be a mass exodus overseas for treatments that become unavailable in the US due to lack of devices or materials to manufacture them, and a black market of such devices and materials in the US, driving their cost up even more. The only people who get rich off these lawsuits are the lawyers, the people who actually suffered a loss get peanuts (if the decision is in their favor at all). Greywolf - RTHR-2003; LTHR-2004mdavison@...From: Joint Replacement [mailto:Joint Replacement ] On Behalf Of Ann Sent: 29 October, 2006 1:38 AMJoint Replacement Subject: Re: TKR

American medicine has become the opposite of socialized. It's become for-profit. This causes the Big Businesses that own them to slash everything they can, including treatments, to make big profits for their investors and obscene salaries, bonuses, and retirements for their execs. They invented the HMO model. It was that that stopped house calls. And the insurance companies discovered that they could make a lot more profit by denying services, keeping office visits to 15 min (how ridiculous is that?), reducing access to expensive tests that could save lives, like MRIs. And a lot of doctors for some incomprehensible reason bought into it (I don't mean they chose it -- they didn't have a choice, but they Believed). If the AMA had risen up and roared loud enough in 1991 when it all started, they could have prevented it, but they didn't. The only reason I can think of is that doctors thought they were gods back then and maybe assumed that they couldn't be hurt by the change. Now they get paid less & punished (in some clinics) for Rx'ing MRIs or referrals. When I had my horrible back pain for 2 years back in '94-'96, I asked my doc to refer me to an orthopedist so he could evaluate my spine (I'd had an acute injury of indeterminate cause that resulted in my whole body being in pain) and she said "Oh, you don't need an orthopedist" because she had a small practice and any money paid to a specialist would have to come out of her pocket. That's why there are fewer independent doctors nowadays. And wait till you get on Medicare. Good luck finding a doc if you're a new patient. Our "socialized" medicine doesn't pay them enough. 80% of docs here in Olympia won't take new Medicare patients. And I found out that the medi-gap your insurance may offer doesn't pay the doc the difference between what Medicare pays and what your insurance would normally pay (with you paying 20% of that, of course) -- the doc gets no more than what Medicare pays (which is only 80% of what they say the cost should be). The difference is that you don't have to cough up the Medicare 20% -- your medigap covers that. So having medigap won't get you a doc if that doc doesn't take new Medicare patients. "New" means you've never seen that particular doc before. So if you come down with kidney failure & need a nephrologist, forget it if you're on Medicare. Make sure you contract all your diseases before you hit 65.Ann S. Re: TKRthe problem is our American system has become to socialized likeCanada and has gone down hill from there. Medicine was muchbetter when doctors made house calls and had PRIVATE PRACTICES.There were NO HMO's. Now doctors have a slew of people just todo paperwork and things in the medical profession have gone to hellin a handcart. When the #1 cause of death in the US are medicalmistakes you know there is a huge problem. It never used to bethis way. The US was #1 in health care. Pretty much like ourpublic school system.Sherry

My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.digiportal.com.

[Guest guest]

I know Canadians where coming down to the US in

droves a few years ago because they had to wait

months for treatment and MRI's up there now I

think that has changed.

Actually, from the Canadians whose posts I've read on the chondromalacia and ITBS groups, that hasn't changed. People have to wait a year or more for surgery. And if they get bumped somehow, they have to go to the back of the line. This, I think, is due to Canada having moved toward the US HMO model.

I know about the medigap

stuff yes. I'm only just 62 yesterday. I'll make sure

I get supplemental insurance. My husband is 66 and

never signed up for Medicare, the guy is never sick.

I told him he is nuts.

He is. I don't know whether he can sign up later or not, but if he suddenly comes down with something, he'll need the Medicare when it happens. I understand his not signing up though. It's criminal that we, who paid into Medicare while we were working, have to pay Medicare premiums of $80-$100/mo (not sure about those figures) when we're using it. Meanwhile our medi-gap insurance also pays hundreds of $$ per month to the insurance company your employer or ex-employer has contracted with (at least if you have a PPO).

Our neighbor signed up for

some supplemental insurance and her latest hospital

bill was all paid between Medicare and the supplemental.

That's how mine's supposed to work. But there's that monthly premium, so it's not free (but still cheaper than what I have now, as long as I have med problemsm and that's not likely to let up as I get older). I know I'm going to be livid when my time comes, but at least I've had warning.

At the rate I'm going, I'll probably be cremains by the

time I reach 65 anyhow.

I hope not. I'm sorry you had a lousy bday. For my bday my ex actually sprung for dinner for 4 (us and our kid & his wife) and during the "dinner" (cheap restaurant), brought up some really painful issues my son & I had been trying to work out. My daughter-in-law got so upset she had to leave the table to cry, which upset my son, and he eventually refused to continue counseling with me, so thanks a lot for a great bday present, ex. Now I essentially don't have a son any more

[Guest guest]

I'm talking 20 years ago though not recently. Of course

then there never was a wait here as we have many MRI

machines and from what I hear Canada has only a couple

that get driven around the country. Used to be there were

several in each city that got driven around in semi's

and several hospitals shared one machine. Now,

most hospitals own there own.

Sherry

Re: TKR

I know Canadians where coming down to the US in

droves a few years ago because they had to wait

months for treatment and MRI's up there now I

think that has changed.

Actually, from the Canadians whose posts I've read on the chondromalacia and ITBS groups, that hasn't changed. People have to wait a year or more for surgery. And if they get bumped somehow, they have to go to the back of the line. This, I think, is due to Canada having moved toward the US HMO model.

I know about the medigap

stuff yes. I'm only just 62 yesterday. I'll make sure

I get supplemental insurance. My husband is 66 and

never signed up for Medicare, the guy is never sick.

I told him he is nuts.

He is. I don't know whether he can sign up later or not, but if he suddenly comes down with something, he'll need the Medicare when it happens. I understand his not signing up though. It's criminal that we, who paid into Medicare while we were working, have to pay Medicare premiums of $80-$100/mo (not sure about those figures) when we're using it. Meanwhile our medi-gap insurance also pays hundreds of $$ per month to the insurance company your employer or ex-employer has contracted with (at least if you have a PPO).

Our neighbor signed up for

some supplemental insurance and her latest hospital

bill was all paid between Medicare and the supplemental.

That's how mine's supposed to work. But there's that monthly premium, so it's not free (but still cheaper than what I have now, as long as I have med problemsm and that's not likely to let up as I get older). I know I'm going to be livid when my time comes, but at least I've had warning.

At the rate I'm going, I'll probably be cremains by the

time I reach 65 anyhow.

I hope not. I'm sorry you had a lousy bday. For my bday my ex actually sprung for dinner for 4 (us and our kid & his wife) and during the "dinner" (cheap restaurant), brought up some really painful issues my son & I had been trying to work out. My daughter-in-law got so upset she had to leave the table to cry, which upset my son, and he eventually refused to continue counseling with me, so thanks a lot for a great bday present, ex. Now I essentially don't have a son any more

[Guest guest]

Actually the big pharmaceutical companies are going to

be in charge of everything. They are trying to take away

herbal medicine here like in Europe and force us into

that crazy CODEX horror where vitamins are considered

prescription medicine. God forbid.

Sherry

Re: TKRthe problem is our American system has become to socialized likeCanada and has gone down hill from there. Medicine was muchbetter when doctors made house calls and had PRIVATE PRACTICES.There were NO HMO's. Now doctors have a slew of people just todo paperwork and things in the medical profession have gone to hellin a handcart. When the #1 cause of death in the US are medicalmistakes you know there is a huge problem. It never used to bethis way. The US was #1 in health care. Pretty much like ourpublic school system.Sherry

My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.digiportal.com.

[Guest guest]

Sherry,

It is paid for out of general taxation and yes, it DOES cover the cost. It may be a bit hard for Americans to believe if you have never had this type of system. NZ was a world leader in the early 20th century in developing a social welfare system, including universal healthcare, for its citizens. Australia and NZ have an agreement to treat each other's citizens, so when I was in Melbourne recently and had to spend a day in the ER, it didn't cost me a cent.

in NZ

---Original Message-----From: Joint Replacement [mailto:Joint Replacement ]On Behalf Of S.A.M.Sent: Sunday, 29 October 2006 9:46 p.m.Joint Replacement Subject: Re: TKR

,

Where does the money come from to pay all the peoples

medical expense? You cannot possibly believe that

the portion people pay actually covers the cost.

Sherry

..

[Guest guest]

Sounds a bit like a conspiracy theory to me. I'm grateful to the pharmaceutical companies, as without their products, I'd be unable to function

-----Original Message-----From: Joint Replacement [mailto:Joint Replacement ]On Behalf Of S.A.M.Sent: Monday, 30 October 2006 2:20 p.m.Joint Replacement Subject: Re: TKR

Actually the big pharmaceutical companies are going to

be in charge of everything. They are trying to take away

herbal medicine here like in Europe and force us into

that crazy CODEX horror where vitamins are considered

prescription medicine. God forbid.

Sherry

Re: TKRthe problem is our American system has become to socialized likeCanada and has gone down hill from there. Medicine was muchbetter when doctors made house calls and had PRIVATE PRACTICES.There were NO HMO's. Now doctors have a slew of people just todo paperwork and things in the medical profession have gone to hellin a handcart. When the #1 cause of death in the US are medicalmistakes you know there is a huge problem. It never used to bethis way. The US was #1 in health care. Pretty much like ourpublic school system.Sherry

My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.digiportal.com.

[Guest guest]

The insurance companies and the hospitals agree to a price

far lower than what the hospital asks for.

Right.

they ask for

huge amounts so that after all the arguing is over the

hospital gets about what it is actually worth.

Right.

My BTKR

bill was $37,000 but since I had both done at the same time

it was $25,000. After all was said and done they settled for

around $18,000. This revision coming up on Wednesday

could be anything as lots of repairing needs to be done

so it's a crap shoot as to how long I'll be on the table.

How much of this do you have to pay?

For my partial meniscectomy, the surgeon charged $1897 (US), was paid $898 by my insurance and I paid $222.28, so he got $1120.80 (for half an hr's work -- oh why didn't I go into medicine?). The pre-op MRI charge was $1019, insurance pd $628, I paid $157.24, so the MRI lab got $785.24. The anesthesiologist charged $496, insurance pd $307.20, I paid $76.80, so she got $384 for slightly less than 1 hr's work. The surgery center (outpatient) charged <I wasn't prepared for this> $3786, ins. pd $2348, I paid $587, so they got $2935. I called the surgery center to ask for an itemized bill, because I know hospitals, etc. charge for things you don't get, or $5 for one pill, and they said they not only don't itemize, they're prevented by law from itemizing because they charge Medicare-set fees (hospitals are required to itemize), which are hourly. As it happens, I arrived 2 hrs early because their alleged attempts to contact me the day before to tell me the surgery had been moved to 2 hrs later had failed. They charged me for the extra 2 hrs I sat in the waiting room. Basically they charge $400/hr. That pays for building purchase and maintenance, nurses, non-med staff, laundry, meds, anesthesia, malpractice insurance, business administration, etc. etc. It's a non-profit facility.

It would be interesting to compare what people here were billed for their TKRs.

Ann S.

Sherry

Re: TKRthe problem is our American system has become to socialized likeCanada and has gone down hill from there. Medicine was muchbetter when doctors made house calls and had PRIVATE PRACTICES.There were NO HMO's. Now doctors have a slew of people just todo paperwork and things in the medical profession have gone to hellin a handcart. When the #1 cause of death in the US are medicalmistakes you know there is a huge problem. It never used to bethis way. The US was #1 in health care. Pretty much like ourpublic school system.Sherry

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[Guest guest]

And those are private companies. In fact, they're an excellent example of why medicine should not be in the hands of private companies.

Ann S.

Re: TKRthe problem is our American system has become to socialized likeCanada and has gone down hill from there. Medicine was muchbetter when doctors made house calls and had PRIVATE PRACTICES.There were NO HMO's. Now doctors have a slew of people just todo paperwork and things in the medical profession have gone to hellin a handcart. When the #1 cause of death in the US are medicalmistakes you know there is a huge problem. It never used to bethis way. The US was #1 in health care. Pretty much like ourpublic school system.Sherry

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[Guest guest]

But, what is your tax rate???

Arianne

>

> Sherry,

> It is paid for out of general taxation and yes, it DOES cover the cost. It

> may be a bit hard for Americans to believe if you have never had this type

> of system. NZ was a world leader in the early 20th century in developing a

> social welfare system, including universal healthcare, for its citizens.

> Australia and NZ have an agreement to treat each other's citizens, so when I

> was in Melbourne recently and had to spend a day in the ER, it didn't cost

> me a cent.

> in NZ

>

> ---Original Message-----

> From: Joint Replacement

> [mailto:Joint Replacement ]On Behalf Of S.A.M.

> Sent: Sunday, 29 October 2006 9:46 p.m.

> Joint Replacement

> Subject: Re: TKR

>

>

>

> ,

>

> Where does the money come from to pay all the peoples

> medical expense? You cannot possibly believe that

> the portion people pay actually covers the cost.

>

> Sherry

> Recent Activity

> a.. 16New Members

> Visit Your Group

>

[Guest guest]

No they are publicly owned by shareholders who bought the stock in them. I couldn't live with myself to

own stock in a company who is killing millions of people

annually. The pharma ads are a hoot. when they tell

what the side effects of this crap is. Lots of time the side

effects are worse than what it is supposedly supposed to

help.

Sherry

Re: TKRthe problem is our American system has become to socialized likeCanada and has gone down hill from there. Medicine was muchbetter when doctors made house calls and had PRIVATE PRACTICES.There were NO HMO's. Now doctors have a slew of people just todo paperwork and things in the medical profession have gone to hellin a handcart. When the #1 cause of death in the US are medicalmistakes you know there is a huge problem. It never used to bethis way. The US was #1 in health care. Pretty much like ourpublic school system.Sherry

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[Guest guest]

Conspiracy....type CODEX into a search and read.

If you're not paranoid, you're not paying attention.

I learned this is very true years ago.

Sherry

Re: TKRthe problem is our American system has become to socialized likeCanada and has gone down hill from there. Medicine was muchbetter when doctors made house calls and had PRIVATE PRACTICES.There were NO HMO's. Now doctors have a slew of people just todo paperwork and things in the medical profession have gone to hellin a handcart. When the #1 cause of death in the US are medicalmistakes you know there is a huge problem. It never used to bethis way. The US was #1 in health care. Pretty much like ourpublic school system.Sherry

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[Guest guest]

33% (we are on the highest income band and tax rate)

Re: TKR> > > > ,> > Where does the money come from to pay all the peoples> medical expense? You cannot possibly believe that> the portion people pay actually covers the cost.> > Sherry> Recent Activity> a.. 16New Members> Visit Your Group>

[Guest guest]

Sherry,

That is really a bit over the top! And also quite offensive to people (like me) who have a chronic medical condition that is kept in check by drugs. I am on an immune-suppressant drug, that has some serious potential side-effects (so I have regular blood tests). Without that drug, I would be in a wheelchair by now.

-----Original Message-----From: Joint Replacement [mailto:Joint Replacement ]On Behalf Of S.A.M.Sent: Monday, 30 October 2006 4:54 p.m.Joint Replacement Subject: Re: TKR

No they are publicly owned by shareholders who bought the stock in them. I couldn't live with myself to

own stock in a company who is killing millions of people

annually. The pharma ads are a hoot. when they tell

what the side effects of this crap is. Lots of time the side

effects are worse than what it is supposedly supposed to

help.

Sherry

Re: TKRthe problem is our American system has become to socialized likeCanada and has gone down hill from there. Medicine was muchbetter when doctors made house calls and had PRIVATE PRACTICES.There were NO HMO's. Now doctors have a slew of people just todo paperwork and things in the medical profession have gone to hellin a handcart. When the #1 cause of death in the US are medicalmistakes you know there is a huge problem. It never used to bethis way. The US was #1 in health care. Pretty much like ourpublic school system.Sherry

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[Guest guest]

It is a conspiracy. This is the worst of American capitalism, which is going to be the downfall of the US. Although there are anti-trust laws, the govt doesn't pay attention to them, allowing car makers, gasoline companies, pharmaceutical companies, etc., to collude. In the case of pharmaceutical companies, most of the "new" drugs developed in the US are just re-hashes of drugs we already have. We get most of our actual new drugs from European development. Patents keep drug prices up for however long the patent lasts (I think this must be about 10 years). Only then can generics be produced so people can afford them. If a person does have insurance, their copayment for a patented drug may be $75 for 3 months (better than nothing), or it may not be available through insurance at all.

The pharmaceutical companies are leading the drive to make herbals and supplements illegal -- require testing first, even though the FDA allows drugs developed by pharmaceutical companies to go to market w/o proper testing. Health insurance companies may fight their efforts to make vitamins available by Rx only, since they have to seriously consider covering anything that's available by Rx.

It goes both ways. If a medicine costs more than an insurance co. wants to pay, they pressure the FDA to make it OTC and then won't cover it.

Ann S.

Re: TKRthe problem is our American system has become to socialized likeCanada and has gone down hill from there. Medicine was muchbetter when doctors made house calls and had PRIVATE PRACTICES.There were NO HMO's. Now doctors have a slew of people just todo paperwork and things in the medical profession have gone to hellin a handcart. When the #1 cause of death in the US are medicalmistakes you know there is a huge problem. It never used to bethis way. The US was #1 in health care. Pretty much like ourpublic school system.Sherry

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[Guest guest]

No they are publicly owned by shareholders who bought the stock in them.

"Publicly owned" means private people own stock in a company. In most cases, the people who started the business, or the current execs, own the majority of the stock. Do you think your measly 356 shares/votes of Glaxo Klein have any weight? The execs make the decisions because they own most of the stock. "Publicly owned" also means the corporation has the same rights (but not the same responsibilities) as a person. Lots of loopholes in that. And now most corporations are international & find ways not to pay taxes in their home country because they don't have a home country. They don't pay their share. But people who used to be execs in pharma companies go to work for the FDA, which then makes decisions about medications.

Ann S.

I couldn't live with myself to

own stock in a company who is killing millions of people

annually. The pharma ads are a hoot. when they tell

what the side effects of this crap is. Lots of time the side

effects are worse than what it is supposedly supposed to

help.

Sherry

Re: TKRthe problem is our American system has become to socialized likeCanada and has gone down hill from there. Medicine was muchbetter when doctors made house calls and had PRIVATE PRACTICES.There were NO HMO's. Now doctors have a slew of people just todo paperwork and things in the medical profession have gone to hellin a handcart. When the #1 cause of death in the US are medicalmistakes you know there is a huge problem. It never used to bethis way. The US was #1 in health care. Pretty much like ourpublic school system.Sherry

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[Guest guest]

This is less than the highest US tax rate, by the way.

Ann S.

Re: TKR> > > > ,> > Where does the money come from to pay all the peoples> medical expense? You cannot possibly believe that> the portion people pay actually covers the cost.> > Sherry> Recent Activity> a.. 16New Members> Visit Your Group>

[Guest guest]

There are times when I wish I'd opted for a wheelchair

rather than surgery. My husband wanted me to opt for

a wheelchair. Now I at least have one good knee so I may

as well give it another try. I will tell the doctor before

I go under that if he screws up the way the last one did

I'll come back to haunt him when I tip over.

Sherry

Re: TKRthe problem is our American system has become to socialized likeCanada and has gone down hill from there. Medicine was muchbetter when doctors made house calls and had PRIVATE PRACTICES.There were NO HMO's. Now doctors have a slew of people just todo paperwork and things in the medical profession have gone to hellin a handcart. When the #1 cause of death in the US are medicalmistakes you know there is a huge problem. It never used to bethis way. The US was #1 in health care. Pretty much like ourpublic school system.Sherry

My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.digiportal.com.

[Guest guest]

Actually it all about taking the peoples freedom of choice

away. I have been stocking up on all sorts of herbal

remedies and buying books every chance I get.

Sherry

Re: TKRthe problem is our American system has become to socialized likeCanada and has gone down hill from there. Medicine was muchbetter when doctors made house calls and had PRIVATE PRACTICES.There were NO HMO's. Now doctors have a slew of people just todo paperwork and things in the medical profession have gone to hellin a handcart. When the #1 cause of death in the US are medicalmistakes you know there is a huge problem. It never used to bethis way. The US was #1 in health care. Pretty much like ourpublic school system.Sherry

My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.digiportal.com.

[Guest guest]

I thought by private you meant one or several owners.

Sherry

Re: TKRthe problem is our American system has become to socialized likeCanada and has gone down hill from there. Medicine was muchbetter when doctors made house calls and had PRIVATE PRACTICES.There were NO HMO's. Now doctors have a slew of people just todo paperwork and things in the medical profession have gone to hellin a handcart. When the #1 cause of death in the US are medicalmistakes you know there is a huge problem. It never used to bethis way. The US was #1 in health care. Pretty much like ourpublic school system.Sherry

My mailbox is spam-free with ChoiceMail, the leader in personal and corporate anti-spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.digiportal.com.

[Guest guest]

That's what the highest rate is in the US. Our military system is very expensive

to operate.

Our constitution mandates a military complex. We take care of the world. There

is no

mention in our constitution of health care for all.

In fact, there is no mention in our constitution of many of the roles our

expansive federal

government has taken on.

Arianne

> >

> > Sherry,

> > It is paid for out of general taxation and yes, it DOES cover the cost.

> It

> > may be a bit hard for Americans to believe if you have never had this

> type

> > of system. NZ was a world leader in the early 20th century in developing

> a

> > social welfare system, including universal healthcare, for its citizens.

> > Australia and NZ have an agreement to treat each other's citizens, so

> when I

> > was in Melbourne recently and had to spend a day in the ER, it didn't

> cost

> > me a cent.

> > in NZ

> >

> > ---Original Message-----

> > From: Joint Replacement

> > [mailto:Joint Replacement ]On Behalf Of S.A.M.

> > Sent: Sunday, 29 October 2006 9:46 p.m.

> > Joint Replacement

> > Subject: Re: TKR

> >

> >

> >

> > ,

> >

> > Where does the money come from to pay all the peoples

> > medical expense? You cannot possibly believe that

> > the portion people pay actually covers the cost.

> >

> > Sherry

> > Recent Activity

> > a.. 16New Members

> > Visit Your Group

> >

[Guest guest]

Unfortunetely, President Bush reduced the number of years a drug is under

patent, so that

generic drugs can be brought to market sooner than previously. Generics are not

always

made the same as the patented conterpart, and often don't work in the same way.

I am an

example of that.

Also, when a new or improved version of a particular drug is produced, the

previous

version is then made OTC.

Patented medicine can and does cost much more than $75 for a three month supply.

I

again, can attest to that.

Clinton's health care bill was no different than anything the federal government

could or

would come up with. It was just publicized more so therefore we read more about

it and

could apply pressure before it was passed.

I happen to think the recent Prescription plan that was passed last year is a

joke. Yes,

there are no more limits on what you can order, but you pay for that on the back

end by

being cut off at $2,500, then you pay the full price for the rest of the year.

Medicare was the worst thing among many that President brought forth. I

know I

will be bashed for this, but the cost of medicine, hospitals, and prescriptions

were nothing

compared to what they became once medicare was passed. Doctors used to GIVE you

prescriptions, and hospital rooms were $18 per day. A doctor visit was $5.

Within the year of medicare being passed, the roof blew off.

Whenever a commodity is removed from local review, waste enters the system and

it

become uncontrollable.

Arianne

>

>

> S.A.M.--

>

> The healthcare sysytem in the US is anything but socialized. It has

become a

purely private business, with all the corner-cutting and minimum service

provision and

maximum charge that the insurance companies can get away with.

>

> If you want someone to blame for this, blame, in order of importance:

1) the

Republican Party, which defeated the Clinton healthcare bill (and felt very

proud of itself

for doing so, btw); 2) the insurance companies that lobbied to kill the

healthcare bill, and;

3) the AMA, which supported the insurance companies.

>

> Healthcare has gone to Hell in a breadbasket in the US, to the point

where I'm very

happy that my healthcare is socialized. To explain what that means, very

simply: I pay a

premium, which is a certain percentage of my income, for a " basic package " of

services,

defined by the Ministry of Health, and uniform throughout the healthcare sector,

which is

actually operated by about half-a dozen " sick funds " ... private companies that

provide

services in accordance with the Ministry of Health requirements, and under its

auspices.

>

> Anyone wanting additional insurance pays for the extras, either as

they happen, or

in a monthly premium to cover certain possibilities. My sick fund had the

levels of

additions, each with more treatments covered than the previous level.

>

> For two THRs, I paid absolutely nothing. This includes: all

preliminary lab tests,

imaging requirements, etc., stay in hospital, surgery, anesthesiologist, PT in

the hospital,

transportation home after surgery in a private ambulance, 6 weeks of home visit

PT and 6

weeks of outpatient PT at my local sick fund clinic, and all follow-up blood

tests and

imaging. The only thing I paid for were the 10 days of anticoagulants after

release from

the hospital and the bandages I covered the surgical incision with for 2 weeks

(and the

health fund paid 75% of the meds, 50% of the dressings).

>

> After my first surgery, I found out that THRs and TKRs are included in

the " basic

package " . In other words, necessary surgery is available to all, no matter what

their

financial situation. Granted, there are sometimes waiting lists, depending on

the

particular hospital you choose, and you may not necessarily be able to choose

your

surgeon (working in the medical device industry, I had enough connections to be

able to

choose), but the services are available to all, and affordable to all.

>

> That's what socialized medicine is supposed to be about... (and the

doctors don't

complain, either).

>

> It could be germane to note that part of the high cost in health care

is the " lawsuit

mania " ... the company I worked for stopped exporting devices to the US because

the legal

costs for fighting frivolous lawsuits was too high to make it worthwhile.

Manufacturer's

journals have noted that a large number of European manufacturers have done the

same,

including chemical supply companies, such as du Pont (France), who are the sole

suppliers

for certain raw materials that go into artificial heart valves. Suing everyone

down to the

janitor who cleaned the OR and the company that pumped the crude petroleum used

to

make the plastic of a medical device are counter-productive, and will, in the

long run,

guarantee that a) there will be a mass exodus overseas for treatments that

become

unavailable in the US due to lack of devices or materials to manufacture them,

and a

black market of such devices and materials in the US, driving their cost up even

more.

>

> The only people who get rich off these lawsuits are the lawyers, the

people who

actually suffered a loss get peanuts (if the decision is in their favor at all).

>

> Greywolf - RTHR-2003; LTHR-2004

> mdavison@...

>

> From: Joint Replacement [mailto:

Joint Replacement ] On Behalf Of Ann

> Sent: 29 October, 2006 1:38 AM

> Joint Replacement

> Subject: Re: TKR

>

>

>

> American medicine has become the opposite of socialized. It's

become for-profit.

This causes the Big Businesses that own them to slash everything they can,

including

treatments, to make big profits for their investors and obscene salaries,

bonuses, and

retirements for their execs. They invented the HMO model. It was that that

stopped

house calls. And the insurance companies discovered that they could make a lot

more

profit by denying services, keeping office visits to 15 min (how ridiculous is

that?),

reducing access to expensive tests that could save lives, like MRIs. And a lot

of doctors

for some incomprehensible reason bought into it (I don't mean they chose it --

they didn't

have a choice, but they Believed). If the AMA had risen up and roared loud

enough in

1991 when it all started, they could have prevented it, but they didn't. The

only reason I

can think of is that doctors thought they were gods back then and maybe assumed

that

they couldn't be hurt by the change. Now they get paid less & punished (in some

clinics)

for Rx'ing MRIs or referrals. When I had my horrible back pain for 2 years back

in '94-'96,

I asked my doc to refer me to an orthopedist so he could evaluate my spine (I'd

had an

acute injury of indeterminate cause that resulted in my whole body being in

pain) and she

said " Oh, you don't need an orthopedist " because she had a small practice and

any money

paid to a specialist would have to come out of her pocket. That's why there are

fewer

independent doctors nowadays. And wait till you get on Medicare. Good luck

finding a

doc if you're a new patient. Our " socialized " medicine doesn't pay them enough.

80% of

docs here in Olympia won't take new Medicare patients. And I found out that the

medi-

gap your insurance may offer doesn't pay the doc the difference between what

Medicare

pays and what your insurance would normally pay (with you paying 20% of that, of

course)

-- the doc gets no more than what Medicare pays (which is only 80% of what they

say the

cost should be). The difference is that you don't have to cough up the Medicare

20% --

your medigap covers that. So having medigap won't get you a doc if that doc

doesn't take

new Medicare patients. " New " means you've never seen that particular doc

before. So if

you come down with kidney failure & need a nephrologist, forget it if you're on

Medicare.

Make sure you contract all your diseases before you hit 65.

> Ann S.

>

>

> Re: TKR

>

>

> the problem is our American system has become to socialized like

> Canada and has gone down hill from there. Medicine was much

> better when doctors made house calls and had PRIVATE PRACTICES.

> There were NO HMO's. Now doctors have a slew of people just to

> do paperwork and things in the medical profession have gone to hell

> in a handcart. When the #1 cause of death in the US are medical

> mistakes you know there is a huge problem. It never used to be

> this way. The US was #1 in health care. Pretty much like our

> public school system.

>

> Sherry

>

>

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------

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corporate anti-

spam solutions. Download your free copy of ChoiceMail from www.digiportal.com.

>