Re: Tale of 12 step woe

[Guest guest]

Heeeheeeheeee!!

I like the word too...

I also like the term " bodice-ripper " , in re to trashy romance novels!

W.

" joe b. " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9737

> I've always rather liked that word " defrocked " , but I think they

should try

> it on some of the good women in Al-Anon... Those floral dresses are a

bit

> much when you've seen eight or nine of them one after another.

>

> JB

>

[Guest guest]

I know my comments were innocuous. However, I do not believe the

respondent was attacking based on the words, but of the inference, and

took it personally. Perhaps this person has a deeper affiliation with

the Catholic religion or a strong loyalty to AA, was abused by a priest

or some other traumatic experience-negative OR positive.

They obviously felt personally attacked in some way and felt they

needed to defend a cause or belief.

I have worked as a book editor and in the field of law for many years

and I know how often the English language can be misinterpreted or

otherwise skewed.

E., you read my words accurately and they did not incite you, except to

question another's interpretation. I just happened to push a button

with a reader.

W.

eudaimon8413311-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9757

> In a message dated 11/23/99 7:46:53 PM Central Standard Time,

> butterbeana@... writes:

>

> << Father ? Oh Man, does that ring a bell!!

> > > > >

> > > > > Seems he dropped out of sight in the late 80s after becoming

> > > involved

> > > > > in a scandal involving young boys...

> > > > > >>

>

> Why did this cause such a ruckus? " Seems " he dropped out of sight

after

> " becoming involved... " doesn't even make a definite statement, just

implies

> possibility; hardly lawsuit material. I've seen far pricklier,

meatier

> statements about public figures on cartoons on Fox network. This

isn't

> communist China, and Father thankfully is no emperor.

[Guest guest]

Does high stakes poker and stip clubs add to personal contentment or simply

add to the emptiness? In my opinion, going to strip clubs and gambling are

just one big downer after the temporary high.

Matt

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: Re: Tale of 12 step woe

>Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:43:33 -0500

>

>

>-----Original Message-----

>

>

>

> > And many AA members have sober poker parties where they can lose up

>to

> >$50 a night. And lots of AA men go to strip clubs and blow countless

> >dollars on " lap dances. "

>

>Is there something wrong with poker or strip clubs?

>

>--wally

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>-- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!

>-- /cal?listname=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Well, Matt -

You might find this a bit odd, being I am female, but I love to go to strip

joints (if they aren't scuzzy). I think the human body is beautiful - male

and female - so if I want to look at someone who I think is nice looking in

the " buff " what is so wrong with that?

I am a naturist/nudist. I have been to nudist resorts that are very classy

and nice. I think people in the USA are too 'anal' about the human body and

the acceptance of how a person looks without clothes.

Trust me, I have a very EXTENSIVE wardrobe of clothing that I usually wear

only to special events. I am a BIG TIME fan of the B-52's and I ALWAYS deck

to the nines in B-52's fashion. I have a place that makes CUSTOM ORDERED

clothing which I purchase to go to my B-52 events and also other places like

a hi-energy dance club. But when push comes to shove, my AB FAB favorite way

of living is sans clothing. I think the reason for the " we must wear

clothes " deal can be tracked back to the European people that first settled

in the USA. They were Puritans, and wanted to escape the (obvious)

domination of their home countrie's rule.

I believe this mode of thought still exists today. And, damnit, who ever

made up this foolishness about men being OK without a shirt on but women

can't???? I go out in the summer and " fry " because " society " regulates that

women can't expose their breasts. EXCUSE ME and HELLO...???? That sounds

SOOO damn much like the stupidity of x-tian groups and 12 step groups.

Damn, it's 90 degrees and I'm hot. Why in the hell should I remain horribly

uncomfortable when men can whip off their shirts and that isn't a concern???

I am NOT male bashing - I am mearly stating my thoughts about this. Because

I am a naturist/nudist, I have to pay alot of money to be this way if I want

to participate in nudity with other people. I only wear clothing because

a) it's cold b)I do it when I go to a concert or nightclub and c) because

if I walked down the street where I live naked, I would end up in jail.

What a crock of b.s.

*sigh*

~Trixxi

Re: Tale of 12 step woe

> >Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:43:33 -0500

> >

> >

> >-----Original Message-----

> >

> >

> >

> > > And many AA members have sober poker parties where they can lose up

> >to

> > >$50 a night. And lots of AA men go to strip clubs and blow countless

> > >dollars on " lap dances. "

> >

> >Is there something wrong with poker or strip clubs?

> >

> >--wally

> >

> >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >-- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!

> >-- /cal?listname=12-step-free & m=1

> >

> >

>

> ______________________________________________________

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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> more that 100,000 products at CNET.com. Get all the latest news,

> reviews and prices! http://clickhere./click/1611

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> -- Create a poll/survey for your group!

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>

[Guest guest]

: Thanks for being honest. I wasted a lot of $ at those clubs.

________________________________________________________________

Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

[Guest guest]

: Thanks for being honest. I wasted a lot of $ at those clubs.

________________________________________________________________

Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

[Guest guest]

: Thanks for being honest. I wasted a lot of $ at those clubs.

________________________________________________________________

Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com

Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

[Guest guest]

wgt@... writes:

> Have never been to a strip club sober, so the memories are hazy, but my

> recollection is that they are pretty " well-regulated " in most cases -- more

> orderly than many barrooms. Innocent fun, unless it's against your religion

> or something.

Having moonlighted as a dancer in one to pay the bills when I was young and

stupid, I'd have to agree that going to them is fine, so long as you realise

that the *only* thing any woman in those places cares about is getting as

much of your money as she possibly can (in spite of anything she says to the

contrary). Backstage, most of the conversations revolved around how stupid

and gullible the customers are, to keep throwing away so much of their money

for so little. I was appalled by the degree of cynicism and cruelty I heard.

But if your idea of a good time is being ripped off and ridiculed behind

your back, it's a free country.

Regards,

[Guest guest]

wgt@... writes:

> Have never been to a strip club sober, so the memories are hazy, but my

> recollection is that they are pretty " well-regulated " in most cases -- more

> orderly than many barrooms. Innocent fun, unless it's against your religion

> or something.

Having moonlighted as a dancer in one to pay the bills when I was young and

stupid, I'd have to agree that going to them is fine, so long as you realise

that the *only* thing any woman in those places cares about is getting as

much of your money as she possibly can (in spite of anything she says to the

contrary). Backstage, most of the conversations revolved around how stupid

and gullible the customers are, to keep throwing away so much of their money

for so little. I was appalled by the degree of cynicism and cruelty I heard.

But if your idea of a good time is being ripped off and ridiculed behind

your back, it's a free country.

Regards,

[Guest guest]

wgt@... writes:

> Have never been to a strip club sober, so the memories are hazy, but my

> recollection is that they are pretty " well-regulated " in most cases -- more

> orderly than many barrooms. Innocent fun, unless it's against your religion

> or something.

Having moonlighted as a dancer in one to pay the bills when I was young and

stupid, I'd have to agree that going to them is fine, so long as you realise

that the *only* thing any woman in those places cares about is getting as

much of your money as she possibly can (in spite of anything she says to the

contrary). Backstage, most of the conversations revolved around how stupid

and gullible the customers are, to keep throwing away so much of their money

for so little. I was appalled by the degree of cynicism and cruelty I heard.

But if your idea of a good time is being ripped off and ridiculed behind

your back, it's a free country.

Regards,

[Guest guest]

I have found that fun and sociability add quite a bit to personal

contentment :-) Unless there's more going on than you describe (like is it

every night?) ...

The poker game where you can lose no more than $50 is a social game. $50 is

the cost of a cheap date (dinner or concert tickets, but not both) and when

you play poker you could even come out ahead. The average cost is zero.

Have never been to a strip club sober, so the memories are hazy, but my

recollection is that they are pretty " well-regulated " in most cases -- more

orderly than many barrooms. Innocent fun, unless it's against your religion

or something.

And at least it keeps them away from an AA meeting, which can't be bad :-)

--wally

Re: Tale of 12 step woe

>>Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:43:33 -0500

>>

>>

>>-----Original Message-----

>>

>>

>>

>> > And many AA members have sober poker parties where they can lose up

>>to

>> >$50 a night. And lots of AA men go to strip clubs and blow countless

>> >dollars on " lap dances. "

>>

>>Is there something wrong with poker or strip clubs?

>>

>>--wally

[Guest guest]

I have found that fun and sociability add quite a bit to personal

contentment :-) Unless there's more going on than you describe (like is it

every night?) ...

The poker game where you can lose no more than $50 is a social game. $50 is

the cost of a cheap date (dinner or concert tickets, but not both) and when

you play poker you could even come out ahead. The average cost is zero.

Have never been to a strip club sober, so the memories are hazy, but my

recollection is that they are pretty " well-regulated " in most cases -- more

orderly than many barrooms. Innocent fun, unless it's against your religion

or something.

And at least it keeps them away from an AA meeting, which can't be bad :-)

--wally

Re: Tale of 12 step woe

>>Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:43:33 -0500

>>

>>

>>-----Original Message-----

>>

>>

>>

>> > And many AA members have sober poker parties where they can lose up

>>to

>> >$50 a night. And lots of AA men go to strip clubs and blow countless

>> >dollars on " lap dances. "

>>

>>Is there something wrong with poker or strip clubs?

>>

>>--wally

[Guest guest]

Hi , You make an excellent point. For many years I was connected with

the management of several strip joints. In those days they weren't called

" gentlemans clubs " . I would hang out in them, drinking for free of course

and watch the customers get taken off.

I have to admit that I got a kick out of seeing how gullible these guys

were.

In a message dated 11/25/99 10:35:27 PM Central Standard Time,

saes@... writes:

> Having moonlighted as a dancer in one to pay the bills when I was young and

> stupid, I'd have to agree that going to them is fine, so long as you

realise

>

> that the *only* thing any woman in those places cares about is getting as

> much of your money as she possibly can (in spite of anything she says to

the

>

> contrary). Backstage, most of the conversations revolved around how

stupid

> and gullible the customers are, to keep throwing away so much of their

money

>

> for so little. I was appalled by the degree of cynicism and cruelty I

heard.

>

> But if your idea of a good time is being ripped off and ridiculed behind

> your back, it's a free country.

>

> Regards,

>

>

[Guest guest]

Imagine my relief -- I more than half expected to get a defensive reaction

when I decided to break down and vent on this issue.

Thanks, guys.

Regards,

mrreindeer@... writes:

> : Thanks for being honest. I wasted a lot of $ at those clubs.

UncArtie@... writes:

> Hi , You make an excellent point. For many years I was connected

with

> the management of several strip joints. In those days they weren't called

> " gentlemans clubs " . I would hang out in them, drinking for free of

course

> and watch the customers get taken off.

> I have to admit that I got a kick out of seeing how gullible these guys

> were.

[Guest guest]

Getting back to my original point, I do believe that going to strip clubs

and playing poker makes you feel empty at the end of the night. Not

fulfilled. Strip clubs are an exercise in frustration. You get to stare at

a bunch of beautiful, naked women you can't take home. And poker is usually

a dead end experience too. Most the time you go home broke or in debt. Even

if you win odds are you lost some too.

There's nothing wrong with either thing. But I just don't think they are

healthy uses of a person's time.

Matt

>From: saes@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: Tale of 12 step woe

>Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 23:15:37 EST

>

>wgt@... writes:

>

> > Have never been to a strip club sober, so the memories are hazy, but my

> > recollection is that they are pretty " well-regulated " in most cases --

>more

> > orderly than many barrooms. Innocent fun, unless it's against your

>religion

> > or something.

>

>Having moonlighted as a dancer in one to pay the bills when I was young and

>stupid, I'd have to agree that going to them is fine, so long as you

>realise

>that the *only* thing any woman in those places cares about is getting as

>much of your money as she possibly can (in spite of anything she says to

>the

>contrary). Backstage, most of the conversations revolved around how stupid

>and gullible the customers are, to keep throwing away so much of their

>money

>for so little. I was appalled by the degree of cynicism and cruelty I

>heard.

> But if your idea of a good time is being ripped off and ridiculed behind

>your back, it's a free country.

>

>Regards,

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>et the most popular downloads on the Web. They¹re new!

>They¹re hot! They’re FREE! Utilities, drivers, games.

>It’s all here. http://clickhere./click/1610

>

>

>

>-- Create a poll/survey for your group!

>-- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Getting back to my original point, I do believe that going to strip clubs

and playing poker makes you feel empty at the end of the night. Not

fulfilled. Strip clubs are an exercise in frustration. You get to stare at

a bunch of beautiful, naked women you can't take home. And poker is usually

a dead end experience too. Most the time you go home broke or in debt. Even

if you win odds are you lost some too.

There's nothing wrong with either thing. But I just don't think they are

healthy uses of a person's time.

Matt

>From: saes@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: Tale of 12 step woe

>Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 23:15:37 EST

>

>wgt@... writes:

>

> > Have never been to a strip club sober, so the memories are hazy, but my

> > recollection is that they are pretty " well-regulated " in most cases --

>more

> > orderly than many barrooms. Innocent fun, unless it's against your

>religion

> > or something.

>

>Having moonlighted as a dancer in one to pay the bills when I was young and

>stupid, I'd have to agree that going to them is fine, so long as you

>realise

>that the *only* thing any woman in those places cares about is getting as

>much of your money as she possibly can (in spite of anything she says to

>the

>contrary). Backstage, most of the conversations revolved around how stupid

>and gullible the customers are, to keep throwing away so much of their

>money

>for so little. I was appalled by the degree of cynicism and cruelty I

>heard.

> But if your idea of a good time is being ripped off and ridiculed behind

>your back, it's a free country.

>

>Regards,

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>et the most popular downloads on the Web. They¹re new!

>They¹re hot! They’re FREE! Utilities, drivers, games.

>It’s all here. http://clickhere./click/1610

>

>

>

>-- Create a poll/survey for your group!

>-- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Getting back to my original point, I do believe that going to strip clubs

and playing poker makes you feel empty at the end of the night. Not

fulfilled. Strip clubs are an exercise in frustration. You get to stare at

a bunch of beautiful, naked women you can't take home. And poker is usually

a dead end experience too. Most the time you go home broke or in debt. Even

if you win odds are you lost some too.

There's nothing wrong with either thing. But I just don't think they are

healthy uses of a person's time.

Matt

>From: saes@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: Tale of 12 step woe

>Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 23:15:37 EST

>

>wgt@... writes:

>

> > Have never been to a strip club sober, so the memories are hazy, but my

> > recollection is that they are pretty " well-regulated " in most cases --

>more

> > orderly than many barrooms. Innocent fun, unless it's against your

>religion

> > or something.

>

>Having moonlighted as a dancer in one to pay the bills when I was young and

>stupid, I'd have to agree that going to them is fine, so long as you

>realise

>that the *only* thing any woman in those places cares about is getting as

>much of your money as she possibly can (in spite of anything she says to

>the

>contrary). Backstage, most of the conversations revolved around how stupid

>and gullible the customers are, to keep throwing away so much of their

>money

>for so little. I was appalled by the degree of cynicism and cruelty I

>heard.

> But if your idea of a good time is being ripped off and ridiculed behind

>your back, it's a free country.

>

>Regards,

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>et the most popular downloads on the Web. They¹re new!

>They¹re hot! They’re FREE! Utilities, drivers, games.

>It’s all here. http://clickhere./click/1610

>

>

>

>-- Create a poll/survey for your group!

>-- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi Matt,

Let's consider poker specifically. You've made some amazingly general

negative statements about a game that millions of people have been playing

for 150 years ago. For instance, if " most of the time you go home broke or

in debt, " as you say, poker would be bankrupting at least a billion

Americans every year. You'd think I would have read about this somewhere

Just to take one particular poker player: the mathematician von

Neumann. Von Neumann made a lot of significant contributions to science and

mathematics. He invented the basic architecture of the digital computer: the

machine I am using to write this message, and probably the one you are using

to read it, still adheres to the von Neumann paradigm. Another little

invention of his (among many) was mathematical game theory, which is the

foundation for a great deal (maybe most?) of modern economics, and has also

found innumerable applications in psychology and other sciences. One of his

main inspirations for game theory was poker, which he played quite

frequently. In fact, one of his mathematical papers deals specifically with

poker.

Are you seriously suggesting that an evening of poker always left von

Neumann with a feeling of emptiness, and that he should have found a

" healthier " way to spend his time?

--wally

-----Original Message-----

>Getting back to my original point, I do believe that going to strip clubs

>and playing poker makes you feel empty at the end of the night. Not

>fulfilled. Strip clubs are an exercise in frustration. You get to stare

at

>a bunch of beautiful, naked women you can't take home. And poker is

usually

>a dead end experience too. Most the time you go home broke or in debt.

Even

>if you win odds are you lost some too.

>There's nothing wrong with either thing. But I just don't think they are

>healthy uses of a person's time.

>Matt

>

[Guest guest]

I didn't say poker was bad. I liked that movie " Rounders. " But I do think

playing poker like any thing " risky " involves a rush, a high. The thrill of

betting on the game. The unpredictability. All I'm saying is the letdown

can be a bummer.

Even if you win money the letdown can be brutal. Gambling of any kind

involves a temporary high. That's why people do it. I mean even old ladies

in nursing homes.

And sure, I indulge in poker occasionally. But I don't obsess about it nor

plan my nights around it. And that's what a lot of AA people I met do.

They look forward to high stakes poker. And they play with such an

intensity you'd think their life was hanging on the outcome.

Matt

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: Re: Tale of 12 step woe

>Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 01:26:21 -0500

>

>Hi Matt,

>

>Let's consider poker specifically. You've made some amazingly general

>negative statements about a game that millions of people have been playing

>for 150 years ago. For instance, if " most of the time you go home broke or

>in debt, " as you say, poker would be bankrupting at least a billion

>Americans every year. You'd think I would have read about this somewhere

>

>Just to take one particular poker player: the mathematician von

>Neumann. Von Neumann made a lot of significant contributions to science and

>mathematics. He invented the basic architecture of the digital computer:

>the

>machine I am using to write this message, and probably the one you are

>using

>to read it, still adheres to the von Neumann paradigm. Another little

>invention of his (among many) was mathematical game theory, which is the

>foundation for a great deal (maybe most?) of modern economics, and has also

>found innumerable applications in psychology and other sciences. One of his

>main inspirations for game theory was poker, which he played quite

>frequently. In fact, one of his mathematical papers deals specifically with

>poker.

>

>Are you seriously suggesting that an evening of poker always left von

>Neumann with a feeling of emptiness, and that he should have found a

> " healthier " way to spend his time?

>

>--wally

>

>

>-----Original Message-----

>

>

>

> >Getting back to my original point, I do believe that going to strip clubs

> >and playing poker makes you feel empty at the end of the night. Not

> >fulfilled. Strip clubs are an exercise in frustration. You get to stare

>at

> >a bunch of beautiful, naked women you can't take home. And poker is

>usually

> >a dead end experience too. Most the time you go home broke or in debt.

>Even

> >if you win odds are you lost some too.

> >There's nothing wrong with either thing. But I just don't think they are

> >healthy uses of a person's time.

> >Matt

> >

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>ShimmerRing with any prurchase at iBeauty.com We have

>over 500 brands of frangrances, treatment, cosmetics.

>http://clickhere./click/1790

>

>-- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!

>-- /cal?listname=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

______________________________________________________