Re: Tale of 12 step woe

[Guest guest]

Matt, you sound very reasonable. Your family doesn't. It makes me very

sad. What is there to " tough love " in response to a suicide. A

suicide attempt is a cry for help. Thank goodness you have the

awareness that your family sadly doesn't have.

Too much hospitalization and institutionalization can beat down

someone's self-esteem. People can start thinking of themselves as

terminally messed up. (doesn't the program reinforce this!) Sometimes

I think that the powers that be want the program in place, so there's a

guaranteed supply of patients in the rehabs & nut houses.

Good luck to you, and I hope that you can bring your aunt a little

compassion and love.

Apple

[Guest guest]

Matt, you sound very reasonable. Your family doesn't. It makes me very

sad. What is there to " tough love " in response to a suicide. A

suicide attempt is a cry for help. Thank goodness you have the

awareness that your family sadly doesn't have.

Too much hospitalization and institutionalization can beat down

someone's self-esteem. People can start thinking of themselves as

terminally messed up. (doesn't the program reinforce this!) Sometimes

I think that the powers that be want the program in place, so there's a

guaranteed supply of patients in the rehabs & nut houses.

Good luck to you, and I hope that you can bring your aunt a little

compassion and love.

Apple

[Guest guest]

Sometimes when people are too scared to do what they know is right, they make up

reasons to convince themselves that what they want to do is right.

Congratulations for doing what you know is right.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Not too bum people out, but I'm finally wanting to talk about my family's

>reaction to my aunt's suicide attempt. It can best be summed up as " tough

>love. " For almost a week, my aunt has been in intensive care. First off,

>half the family doesn't even know that. My Grandfather and Grandmother are

>really big on not telling the family's dark secrets. The only way I found

>out was by calling Monday night and asking him how he was doing. That's

>when he told me my aunt had attempted suicide two nights before.

> Anyway, I've been to see her pretty much every day since. And the sad

>thing is, everyone from my family has more or less abandoned her. My

>Grandparents will stop by for a few hours a day. But everyone else is

>avoiding the hospital like the plague. Why? I think in there view a

>suicide attempt isn't a real tragedy, not worth visiting over. And that if

>they visit her, it won't only make her feel more sorry for herself.

> Either that or people just can't handle it emotionally.

> What's been predictable is the AA reaction. My aunt's sponsor has yet

>to visit her. Because she can't " cope with it. " I think avoidance is the

>easiest road short term. But it makes you feel bad later on.

> I told my brother about it a few days ago. He hasn't called or

>visited by aunt. Didn't even tell me to " wish her well. "

>I think this whole idea of " tough love " came from the 12 step groups. That

>by disassociating we are somehow doing the person good.

>I just don't buy it. My aunt has tried to kill herself several times in the

>past few years. And my family's reaction has always been the same: leave

>her alone so she can get better.

> If anything, I think the opposite should be done. The last thing she

>needs is more time alone. But that's there plan. They are going to put her

>into a mental hospital for who knows how long. As soon as she recovers from

>her injuries. She has been to rehab 4 or 5 times. I can't see what one

>more time's going to do.

> My aunt told me she didn't want to go to a hospital because she would

>feel " left for dead. " Meaning, no one from the family would visit her.

>That makes me very angry and scared. Because one of my biggest fears of

>ever going into a hospital is that my family would abandon me. Turns out

>I'm not too far off.

> But like I said, my family thinks there are doing what's right. " dont

>enable her. " Instead they'd rather brush her aside and lock her up, " out of

>sight, out of mind. " Send her off to rehab so she can be " fixed. "

> If my family had a clue they would support her and help her get her

>life going again. The last thing she needs is another 30 day vacation from

>the real world in treatment.

>Sorry about the long post. Hope you all made it to the end!!

>Matt

>

>______________________________________________________

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Looking for the latest consumer electronic gadgets or computer

>equipment? eBay has thousands of audio equipment, computer

>games & accessories. You never know what you might find at eBay!

>http://clickhere./click/1142

>

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>

>

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[Guest guest]

Thanks Apple. I've become more and more convinced that repeat trips to

rehab are counterproductive. Everyday I go to work I walk by a Alcohol &

Drug treatment center. I'll see a group of patients outside smoking while

laughing nervously and avoiding eye contact. Occasionally I've had the

desire to walk up and ask them, " is this working? Or is it a complete waste

of time? " I wonder what they'd say. In my opinion rehab is an exercise in

helplessness.

For 30 days you have others telling you how to live your life. You

aren't allowed to think for yourself. Then you are released to the outside

world. Has anything changed? Have you learned any new coping skills. I

doubt it seriously.

I strongly believe that medication can really help an addict. As long

as the addict abstains. At least in the short term, psychiatric drugs can

help a person recognize patterns and see the big picture. I think a lot of

addicts have such a hard time stopping because they have " trained there

brains " to use alcohol and drugs. Their brain chemistry has changed. And

the 12 steps cannot change a person's brain chemistry.

Medication can help break through all that. Very quickly. I think

most addicts should go on it, at least for a while, until they can get a

hold of themselves.

I know for me, my life has never been the same since I started to

taking antidepressants. I have a lot more self control now. And I don't

deliberately try to defeat myself like I did before. I don't have this dark

desire to derail myself as much as before. And my life isn't constant

chaos.

The good thing is, even when I stop taking the meds I am still

different than before. It does become harder to control my self destructive

impulses. But I still can do it.

Matt

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeeGroups

>Subject: Re: Tale of 12 step woe

>Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 14:36:45 -0800

>

>Matt, you sound very reasonable. Your family doesn't. It makes me very

>sad. What is there to " tough love " in response to a suicide. A

>suicide attempt is a cry for help. Thank goodness you have the

>awareness that your family sadly doesn't have.

>

>Too much hospitalization and institutionalization can beat down

>someone's self-esteem. People can start thinking of themselves as

>terminally messed up. (doesn't the program reinforce this!) Sometimes

>I think that the powers that be want the program in place, so there's a

>guaranteed supply of patients in the rehabs & nut houses.

>

>Good luck to you, and I hope that you can bring your aunt a little

>compassion and love.

>

>Apple

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Looking for the latest consumer electronic gadgets or computer

>equipment? eBay has thousands of audio equipment, computer

>games & accessories. You never know what you might find at eBay!

>http://clickhere./click/1142

>

>-- Talk to your group with your own voice!

>-- /VoiceChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

-----Original Message-----

>Thanks Apple. I've become more and more convinced that repeat trips to

>rehab are counterproductive. Everyday I go to work I walk by a Alcohol &

>Drug treatment center. I'll see a group of patients outside smoking while

>laughing nervously and avoiding eye contact. Occasionally I've had the

>desire to walk up and ask them, " is this working? Or is it a complete

waste

>of time? " I wonder what they'd say.

Heck, even I can answer that one for you. They'd say something like:

Thanks to this Wonderful Program, my Counselor Joe H., the Steps, and my

Higher Power (who I discovered last week), I have a real sense of hope for

the first time. I don't know if it's 'working', but I do know that I am

being given all the tools I need to make it work when I leave here. The rest

is up to me, and if it doesn't work that only means that I didn't Truly

Surrender and Work the Program.

And why would any adult with an IQ over 63 babble such mush in public? Well,

the reason is that when he went in the front door, probably under duress or

drunk or both, the Staff did their best to get him to sign a form permitting

them to freely contact as many outside parties (family, employer,

professional association, union, parole officer, lawyer...) as possible, and

then when he came out of the haze he quickly learned that if he didn't spout

the obeisances, his Compliance Failure would be reflected in Progress

Reports to all and sundry, and furthermore he would surely Drink and Die in

complete disgrace and hideous physical agony.

And after 30 days of saying things like this in sessions, formal and

informal, with your Peers (all of which, should it not toe the line, comes

up in Group the next day) you go out almost believing it for a couple of

days.

Ah, the memories... I will never forget sitting in a circle with my Peers

one sunny Saturday morning in Spofford Hall when, after the usual moment of

profoundly silent meditation, the StepGoblin, in his sepulchral voice,

chanted the words that opened the Group: " Who Isn't Changing? " Fear clutched

every heart, as each of us scrambled to figure out exactly who it was that

Wasn't Changing, and why it Wasn't Me, before it became our turn to Share.

Many Changes were Shared, and they were all profound, especially considering

that they had happened within the past month. Turned out it was X. who

Wasn't Changing. His sin was basic: he wouldn't emote properly when he

admitted that he had the Disease of Alcoholism. He had even said once, in a

careless moment, that he thought he just drank too much because of some

problems he had. The consequence? " is a Dead Man. " We gulped. Some of

us tried to help out , pointing to instances in which he had made some

effort to work the First Step. Each potential ally was skillfully shot down

by the StepGoblin, until the entire circle was in agreement that Wasn't

Changing and hence was a Dead Man. Including .

Questions for meditation:

(1) Who, at least before the Dead Man Group, had been the sanest person

in the circle?

(2) What coping skills were we learning here, to help us get on with our

lives after Treatment?

(3) Does this sound like good therapy for depression?

>In my opinion rehab is an exercise in

>helplessness.

Bingo. Also an exercise in charging hospital rates for presenting movies,

lectures, and rap sessions to a bunch of unfortunates who are in various

kinds of deep doo-doo, and who will probably not succeed in exposing the

scam before the next quarterly earnings report comes out.

> For 30 days you have others telling you how to live your life. You

>aren't allowed to think for yourself. Then you are released to the outside

>world. Has anything changed? Have you learned any new coping skills. I

>doubt it seriously.

Me too ;-) I went through a couple of Grade A 30-day StepPrograms way back

when. I can remember times when people graduated with All the (Simple

Spiritual) Tools to Stay Sober One-day-at-a-time-forever, and phoned their

friends back in Treatment the very same day, drunk and in tearful anguish,

explaining that not only did they forget to Work the Program, but It's

Different Out There! And it was a tradition that on the way out, everybody

put their names and phone numbers ( " Get Phone Numbers! " ) in each other's Big

Books, which meant that on top of all the other benefits of your $x000

learning experience, you were entitled to a series of phone calls from drunk

people over a period of 3 months. Then there's always Aftercare, where you

go for 2 hours a week for a while to find out who, if anybody, hasn't

Slipped yet.

You're right, it's 30 days in Fairyland. Would it not make sense, if you are

going to cure people by providing them with movies, lectures, and rap

sessions, to at least do it on an outpatient basis for 1/20 of the cost, and

let them go about their lives in their own communities so they try out their

new coping skills as they learn them? Yes it would. It's even been done. One

drawback is that it's harder to brainwash people if you don't isolate them.

> I strongly believe that medication can really help an addict. As

long

>as the addict abstains. At least in the short term, psychiatric drugs can

>help a person recognize patterns and see the big picture. I think a lot of

>addicts have such a hard time stopping because they have " trained there

>brains " to use alcohol and drugs. Their brain chemistry has changed. And

>the 12 steps cannot change a person's brain chemistry.

Could be. And if you try to just deal with the " addiction " and ignore real

problems (some of which can be helped by psychiatric drugs), then the

addictive drug, and perhaps the addict life-style, may seem more like a

solution than a problem.

> Medication can help break through all that. Very quickly. I think

>most addicts should go on it, at least for a while, until they can get a

>hold of themselves.

Don't know about " most " , but certainly some. I did for a year, and I believe

it helped.

-- wally

> I know for me, my life has never been the same since I started to

>taking antidepressants. I have a lot more self control now. And I don't

>deliberately try to defeat myself like I did before. I don't have this

dark

>desire to derail myself as much as before. And my life isn't constant

>chaos.

> The good thing is, even when I stop taking the meds I am still

>different than before. It does become harder to control my self

destructive

>impulses. But I still can do it.

>Matt

>

[Guest guest]

The trouble with doing all that stuff (movies, lectures, etc.) on an outpatient

basis is that people realize very quickly that they are paying $95-$150 an hour

for something they could rent (if they wanted) for $5. Also they get very

bored. I think that kind of treatment has people begging to be allowed to go to

AA meetings instead.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>

>-----Original Message-----

>

>

>

>>Thanks Apple. I've become more and more convinced that repeat trips to

>>rehab are counterproductive. Everyday I go to work I walk by a Alcohol &

>>Drug treatment center. I'll see a group of patients outside smoking while

>>laughing nervously and avoiding eye contact. Occasionally I've had the

>>desire to walk up and ask them, " is this working? Or is it a complete

>waste

>>of time? " I wonder what they'd say.

>

>Heck, even I can answer that one for you. They'd say something like:

> Thanks to this Wonderful Program, my Counselor Joe H., the Steps, and my

>Higher Power (who I discovered last week), I have a real sense of hope for

>the first time. I don't know if it's 'working', but I do know that I am

>being given all the tools I need to make it work when I leave here. The rest

>is up to me, and if it doesn't work that only means that I didn't Truly

>Surrender and Work the Program.

>

>And why would any adult with an IQ over 63 babble such mush in public? Well,

>the reason is that when he went in the front door, probably under duress or

>drunk or both, the Staff did their best to get him to sign a form permitting

>them to freely contact as many outside parties (family, employer,

>professional association, union, parole officer, lawyer...) as possible, and

>then when he came out of the haze he quickly learned that if he didn't spout

>the obeisances, his Compliance Failure would be reflected in Progress

>Reports to all and sundry, and furthermore he would surely Drink and Die in

>complete disgrace and hideous physical agony.

>

>And after 30 days of saying things like this in sessions, formal and

>informal, with your Peers (all of which, should it not toe the line, comes

>up in Group the next day) you go out almost believing it for a couple of

>days.

>

>Ah, the memories... I will never forget sitting in a circle with my Peers

>one sunny Saturday morning in Spofford Hall when, after the usual moment of

>profoundly silent meditation, the StepGoblin, in his sepulchral voice,

>chanted the words that opened the Group: " Who Isn't Changing? " Fear clutched

>every heart, as each of us scrambled to figure out exactly who it was that

>Wasn't Changing, and why it Wasn't Me, before it became our turn to Share.

>Many Changes were Shared, and they were all profound, especially considering

>that they had happened within the past month. Turned out it was X. who

>Wasn't Changing. His sin was basic: he wouldn't emote properly when he

>admitted that he had the Disease of Alcoholism. He had even said once, in a

>careless moment, that he thought he just drank too much because of some

>problems he had. The consequence? " is a Dead Man. " We gulped. Some of

>us tried to help out , pointing to instances in which he had made some

>effort to work the First Step. Each potential ally was skillfully shot down

>by the StepGoblin, until the entire circle was in agreement that Wasn't

>Changing and hence was a Dead Man. Including .

>

>Questions for meditation:

> (1) Who, at least before the Dead Man Group, had been the sanest person

>in the circle?

> (2) What coping skills were we learning here, to help us get on with our

>lives after Treatment?

> (3) Does this sound like good therapy for depression?

>

>>In my opinion rehab is an exercise in

>>helplessness.

>

>Bingo. Also an exercise in charging hospital rates for presenting movies,

>lectures, and rap sessions to a bunch of unfortunates who are in various

>kinds of deep doo-doo, and who will probably not succeed in exposing the

>scam before the next quarterly earnings report comes out.

>

>> For 30 days you have others telling you how to live your life. You

>>aren't allowed to think for yourself. Then you are released to the outside

>>world. Has anything changed? Have you learned any new coping skills. I

>>doubt it seriously.

>

>Me too ;-) I went through a couple of Grade A 30-day StepPrograms way back

>when. I can remember times when people graduated with All the (Simple

>Spiritual) Tools to Stay Sober One-day-at-a-time-forever, and phoned their

>friends back in Treatment the very same day, drunk and in tearful anguish,

>explaining that not only did they forget to Work the Program, but It's

>Different Out There! And it was a tradition that on the way out, everybody

>put their names and phone numbers ( " Get Phone Numbers! " ) in each other's Big

>Books, which meant that on top of all the other benefits of your $x000

>learning experience, you were entitled to a series of phone calls from drunk

>people over a period of 3 months. Then there's always Aftercare, where you

>go for 2 hours a week for a while to find out who, if anybody, hasn't

>Slipped yet.

>

>You're right, it's 30 days in Fairyland. Would it not make sense, if you are

>going to cure people by providing them with movies, lectures, and rap

>sessions, to at least do it on an outpatient basis for 1/20 of the cost, and

>let them go about their lives in their own communities so they try out their

>new coping skills as they learn them? Yes it would. It's even been done. One

>drawback is that it's harder to brainwash people if you don't isolate them.

>

>> I strongly believe that medication can really help an addict. As

>long

>>as the addict abstains. At least in the short term, psychiatric drugs can

>>help a person recognize patterns and see the big picture. I think a lot of

>>addicts have such a hard time stopping because they have " trained there

>>brains " to use alcohol and drugs. Their brain chemistry has changed. And

>>the 12 steps cannot change a person's brain chemistry.

>

>Could be. And if you try to just deal with the " addiction " and ignore real

>problems (some of which can be helped by psychiatric drugs), then the

>addictive drug, and perhaps the addict life-style, may seem more like a

>solution than a problem.

>

>> Medication can help break through all that. Very quickly. I think

>>most addicts should go on it, at least for a while, until they can get a

>>hold of themselves.

>

>Don't know about " most " , but certainly some. I did for a year, and I believe

>it helped.

>

>-- wally

>

>> I know for me, my life has never been the same since I started to

>>taking antidepressants. I have a lot more self control now. And I don't

>>deliberately try to defeat myself like I did before. I don't have this

>dark

>>desire to derail myself as much as before. And my life isn't constant

>>chaos.

>> The good thing is, even when I stop taking the meds I am still

>>different than before. It does become harder to control my self

>destructive

>>impulses. But I still can do it.

>>Matt

>>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.

>http://clickhere./click/1702

>

>

>

>-- Create a poll/survey for your group!

>-- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

>

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Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

[Guest guest]

OH GAWD! Those " Father " videos are the MOST boring of ALL TIME!

Second place winner of 12-step-boredom videos are with some dude affiliated

with Hazelton....ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Tale of 12 step woe

> The trouble with doing all that stuff (movies, lectures, etc.) on an

outpatient basis is that people realize very quickly that they are paying

$95-$150 an hour for something they could rent (if they wanted) for $5.

Also they get very bored. I think that kind of treatment has people begging

to be allowed to go to AA meetings instead.

> ---

> Kayleigh

>

> Zz

> zZ

> |\ z _,,,---,,_

> /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

> |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

> '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>

>

>

>

> >

> >-----Original Message-----

> >

> >

> >

> >>Thanks Apple. I've become more and more convinced that repeat trips to

> >>rehab are counterproductive. Everyday I go to work I walk by a Alcohol

&

> >>Drug treatment center. I'll see a group of patients outside smoking

while

> >>laughing nervously and avoiding eye contact. Occasionally I've had the

> >>desire to walk up and ask them, " is this working? Or is it a complete

> >waste

> >>of time? " I wonder what they'd say.

> >

> >Heck, even I can answer that one for you. They'd say something like:

> > Thanks to this Wonderful Program, my Counselor Joe H., the Steps, and

my

> >Higher Power (who I discovered last week), I have a real sense of hope

for

> >the first time. I don't know if it's 'working', but I do know that I am

> >being given all the tools I need to make it work when I leave here. The

rest

> >is up to me, and if it doesn't work that only means that I didn't Truly

> >Surrender and Work the Program.

> >

> >And why would any adult with an IQ over 63 babble such mush in public?

Well,

> >the reason is that when he went in the front door, probably under duress

or

> >drunk or both, the Staff did their best to get him to sign a form

permitting

> >them to freely contact as many outside parties (family, employer,

> >professional association, union, parole officer, lawyer...) as possible,

and

> >then when he came out of the haze he quickly learned that if he didn't

spout

> >the obeisances, his Compliance Failure would be reflected in Progress

> >Reports to all and sundry, and furthermore he would surely Drink and Die

in

> >complete disgrace and hideous physical agony.

> >

> >And after 30 days of saying things like this in sessions, formal and

> >informal, with your Peers (all of which, should it not toe the line,

comes

> >up in Group the next day) you go out almost believing it for a couple of

> >days.

> >

> >Ah, the memories... I will never forget sitting in a circle with my Peers

> >one sunny Saturday morning in Spofford Hall when, after the usual moment

of

> >profoundly silent meditation, the StepGoblin, in his sepulchral voice,

> >chanted the words that opened the Group: " Who Isn't Changing? " Fear

clutched

> >every heart, as each of us scrambled to figure out exactly who it was

that

> >Wasn't Changing, and why it Wasn't Me, before it became our turn to

Share.

> >Many Changes were Shared, and they were all profound, especially

considering

> >that they had happened within the past month. Turned out it was X.

who

> >Wasn't Changing. His sin was basic: he wouldn't emote properly when he

> >admitted that he had the Disease of Alcoholism. He had even said once, in

a

> >careless moment, that he thought he just drank too much because of some

> >problems he had. The consequence? " is a Dead Man. " We gulped. Some

of

> >us tried to help out , pointing to instances in which he had made

some

> >effort to work the First Step. Each potential ally was skillfully shot

down

> >by the StepGoblin, until the entire circle was in agreement that

Wasn't

> >Changing and hence was a Dead Man. Including .

> >

> >Questions for meditation:

> > (1) Who, at least before the Dead Man Group, had been the sanest

person

> >in the circle?

> > (2) What coping skills were we learning here, to help us get on with

our

> >lives after Treatment?

> > (3) Does this sound like good therapy for depression?

> >

> >>In my opinion rehab is an exercise in

> >>helplessness.

> >

> >Bingo. Also an exercise in charging hospital rates for presenting movies,

> >lectures, and rap sessions to a bunch of unfortunates who are in various

> >kinds of deep doo-doo, and who will probably not succeed in exposing the

> >scam before the next quarterly earnings report comes out.

> >

> >> For 30 days you have others telling you how to live your life. You

> >>aren't allowed to think for yourself. Then you are released to the

outside

> >>world. Has anything changed? Have you learned any new coping skills.

I

> >>doubt it seriously.

> >

> >Me too ;-) I went through a couple of Grade A 30-day StepPrograms way

back

> >when. I can remember times when people graduated with All the (Simple

> >Spiritual) Tools to Stay Sober One-day-at-a-time-forever, and phoned

their

> >friends back in Treatment the very same day, drunk and in tearful

anguish,

> >explaining that not only did they forget to Work the Program, but It's

> >Different Out There! And it was a tradition that on the way out,

everybody

> >put their names and phone numbers ( " Get Phone Numbers! " ) in each other's

Big

> >Books, which meant that on top of all the other benefits of your $x000

> >learning experience, you were entitled to a series of phone calls from

drunk

> >people over a period of 3 months. Then there's always Aftercare, where

you

> >go for 2 hours a week for a while to find out who, if anybody, hasn't

> >Slipped yet.

> >

> >You're right, it's 30 days in Fairyland. Would it not make sense, if you

are

> >going to cure people by providing them with movies, lectures, and rap

> >sessions, to at least do it on an outpatient basis for 1/20 of the cost,

and

> >let them go about their lives in their own communities so they try out

their

> >new coping skills as they learn them? Yes it would. It's even been done.

One

> >drawback is that it's harder to brainwash people if you don't isolate

them.

> >

> >> I strongly believe that medication can really help an addict. As

> >long

> >>as the addict abstains. At least in the short term, psychiatric drugs

can

> >>help a person recognize patterns and see the big picture. I think a lot

of

> >>addicts have such a hard time stopping because they have " trained there

> >>brains " to use alcohol and drugs. Their brain chemistry has changed.

And

> >>the 12 steps cannot change a person's brain chemistry.

> >

> >Could be. And if you try to just deal with the " addiction " and ignore

real

> >problems (some of which can be helped by psychiatric drugs), then the

> >addictive drug, and perhaps the addict life-style, may seem more like a

> >solution than a problem.

> >

> >> Medication can help break through all that. Very quickly. I think

> >>most addicts should go on it, at least for a while, until they can get a

> >>hold of themselves.

> >

> >Don't know about " most " , but certainly some. I did for a year, and I

believe

> >it helped.

> >

> >-- wally

> >

> >> I know for me, my life has never been the same since I started to

> >>taking antidepressants. I have a lot more self control now. And I

don't

> >>deliberately try to defeat myself like I did before. I don't have this

> >dark

> >>desire to derail myself as much as before. And my life isn't constant

> >>chaos.

> >> The good thing is, even when I stop taking the meds I am still

> >>different than before. It does become harder to control my self

> >destructive

> >>impulses. But I still can do it.

> >>Matt

> >>

> >

> >

> >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.

> >http://clickhere./click/1702

> >

> >

> >

> >-- Create a poll/survey for your group!

> >-- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.

> http://clickhere./click/1702

>

>

>

> -- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!

> -- /cal?listname=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/23/99 6:26:34 AM Central Standard Time,

appledtp@... writes:

> Is this for real?

> apple

>

> " wendy rose " wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9704

> > Father ? Oh Man, does that ring a bell!!

> >

> > Seems he dropped out of sight in the late 80s after becoming involved

> > in a scandal involving young boys...

> >

> >

>

I don't believe so. He was still making personal appearances as late as

1996 as I recall. Artie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/23/99 6:28:56 AM Central Standard Time,

wrose2@... writes:

>

> Apple, I am pretty sure he was coaching a boy's hockey team and got

> *ahem* " involved " . I remember " murmurings " about it.

>

> If I have my facts straight, he is from Michigan and was defrocked.

>

> I can't confirm this, but maybe someone else can help out with this

> story.

>

>

>

You have this all wrong. See http://fathermartinsashley.com/

You really need to check your facts before villifying someone!

Artie

[Guest guest]

Your posts speak for themselves. You made totally

unsubstantiated,unproven,allegations and innuendos. Your posts are reckless

and quite possibly actionable for defamation and slander.

Artie

In a message dated 11/23/99 6:59:47 AM Central Standard Time,

wrose2@... writes:

>

> And why don't you read my posts more carefully before YOU make

> accusations?

>

> uncarti-@... wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9708

> > In a message dated 11/23/99 6:28:56 AM Central Standard Time,

> > wrose2@... writes:

> >

> > >

> > > Apple, I am pretty sure he was coaching a boy's hockey team and got

> > > *ahem* " involved " . I remember " murmurings " about it.

> > >

> > > If I have my facts straight, he is from Michigan and was defrocked.

> > >

> > > I can't confirm this, but maybe someone else can help out with this

> > > story.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > You have this all wrong. See http://fathermartinsashley

> .com/

> >

> > You really need to check your facts before villifying someone!

> > Artie

>

>

[Guest guest]

Father ? Oh Man, does that ring a bell!!

Seems he dropped out of sight in the late 80s after becoming involved

in a scandal involving young boys...

butterbean-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9703

> OH GAWD! Those " Father " videos are the MOST boring of ALL TIME!

> Second place winner of 12-step-boredom videos are with some dude

affiliated

> with Hazelton....ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> Re: Tale of 12 step woe

>

>

> > The trouble with doing all that stuff (movies, lectures, etc.) on an

> outpatient basis is that people realize very quickly that they are

paying

> $95-$150 an hour for something they could rent (if they wanted) for

$5.

> Also they get very bored. I think that kind of treatment has people

begging

> to be allowed to go to AA meetings instead.

> > ---

> > Kayleigh

> >

> > Zz

> > zZ

> > |\ z _,,,---,,_

> > /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

> > |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

> > '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > >

> > >-----Original Message-----

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >>Thanks Apple. I've become more and more convinced that repeat

trips to

> > >>rehab are counterproductive. Everyday I go to work I walk by a

Alcohol

> &

> > >>Drug treatment center. I'll see a group of patients outside

smoking

> while

> > >>laughing nervously and avoiding eye contact. Occasionally I've

had the

> > >>desire to walk up and ask them, " is this working? Or is it a

complete

> > >waste

> > >>of time? " I wonder what they'd say.

> > >

> > >Heck, even I can answer that one for you. They'd say something

like:

> > > Thanks to this Wonderful Program, my Counselor Joe H., the

Steps, and

> my

> > >Higher Power (who I discovered last week), I have a real sense of

hope

> for

> > >the first time. I don't know if it's 'working', but I do know that

I am

> > >being given all the tools I need to make it work when I leave

here. The

> rest

> > >is up to me, and if it doesn't work that only means that I didn't

Truly

> > >Surrender and Work the Program.

> > >

> > >And why would any adult with an IQ over 63 babble such mush in

public?

> Well,

> > >the reason is that when he went in the front door, probably under

duress

> or

> > >drunk or both, the Staff did their best to get him to sign a form

> permitting

> > >them to freely contact as many outside parties (family, employer,

> > >professional association, union, parole officer, lawyer...) as

possible,

> and

> > >then when he came out of the haze he quickly learned that if he

didn't

> spout

> > >the obeisances, his Compliance Failure would be reflected in

Progress

> > >Reports to all and sundry, and furthermore he would surely Drink

and Die

> in

> > >complete disgrace and hideous physical agony.

> > >

> > >And after 30 days of saying things like this in sessions, formal

and

> > >informal, with your Peers (all of which, should it not toe the

line,

> comes

> > >up in Group the next day) you go out almost believing it for a

couple of

> > >days.

> > >

> > >Ah, the memories... I will never forget sitting in a circle with

my Peers

> > >one sunny Saturday morning in Spofford Hall when, after the usual

moment

> of

> > >profoundly silent meditation, the StepGoblin, in his sepulchral

voice,

> > >chanted the words that opened the Group: " Who Isn't Changing? " Fear

> clutched

> > >every heart, as each of us scrambled to figure out exactly who it

was

> that

> > >Wasn't Changing, and why it Wasn't Me, before it became our turn to

> Share.

> > >Many Changes were Shared, and they were all profound, especially

> considering

> > >that they had happened within the past month. Turned out it was

X.

> who

> > >Wasn't Changing. His sin was basic: he wouldn't emote properly

when he

> > >admitted that he had the Disease of Alcoholism. He had even said

once, in

> a

> > >careless moment, that he thought he just drank too much because of

some

> > >problems he had. The consequence? " is a Dead Man. " We gulped.

Some

> of

> > >us tried to help out , pointing to instances in which he had

made

> some

> > >effort to work the First Step. Each potential ally was skillfully

shot

> down

> > >by the StepGoblin, until the entire circle was in agreement that

> Wasn't

> > >Changing and hence was a Dead Man. Including .

> > >

> > >Questions for meditation:

> > > (1) Who, at least before the Dead Man Group, had been the

sanest

> person

> > >in the circle?

> > > (2) What coping skills were we learning here, to help us get

on with

> our

> > >lives after Treatment?

> > > (3) Does this sound like good therapy for depression?

> > >

> > >>In my opinion rehab is an exercise in

> > >>helplessness.

> > >

> > >Bingo. Also an exercise in charging hospital rates for presenting

movies,

> > >lectures, and rap sessions to a bunch of unfortunates who are in

various

> > >kinds of deep doo-doo, and who will probably not succeed in

exposing the

> > >scam before the next quarterly earnings report comes out.

> > >

> > >> For 30 days you have others telling you how to live your

life. You

> > >>aren't allowed to think for yourself. Then you are released to

the

> outside

> > >>world. Has anything changed? Have you learned any new coping

skills.

> I

> > >>doubt it seriously.

> > >

> > >Me too ;-) I went through a couple of Grade A 30-day StepPrograms

way

> back

> > >when. I can remember times when people graduated with All the

(Simple

> > >Spiritual) Tools to Stay Sober One-day-at-a-time-forever, and

phoned

> their

> > >friends back in Treatment the very same day, drunk and in tearful

> anguish,

> > >explaining that not only did they forget to Work the Program, but

It's

> > >Different Out There! And it was a tradition that on the way out,

> everybody

> > >put their names and phone numbers ( " Get Phone Numbers! " ) in each

other's

> Big

> > >Books, which meant that on top of all the other benefits of your

$x000

> > >learning experience, you were entitled to a series of phone calls

from

> drunk

> > >people over a period of 3 months. Then there's always Aftercare,

where

> you

> > >go for 2 hours a week for a while to find out who, if anybody,

hasn't

> > >Slipped yet.

> > >

> > >You're right, it's 30 days in Fairyland. Would it not make sense,

if you

> are

> > >going to cure people by providing them with movies, lectures, and

rap

> > >sessions, to at least do it on an outpatient basis for 1/20 of the

cost,

> and

> > >let them go about their lives in their own communities so they try

out

> their

> > >new coping skills as they learn them? Yes it would. It's even been

done.

> One

> > >drawback is that it's harder to brainwash people if you don't

isolate

> them.

> > >

> > >> I strongly believe that medication can really help an

addict. As

> > >long

> > >>as the addict abstains. At least in the short term, psychiatric

drugs

> can

> > >>help a person recognize patterns and see the big picture. I

think a lot

> of

> > >>addicts have such a hard time stopping because they have " trained

there

> > >>brains " to use alcohol and drugs. Their brain chemistry has

changed.

> And

> > >>the 12 steps cannot change a person's brain chemistry.

> > >

> > >Could be. And if you try to just deal with the " addiction " and

ignore

> real

> > >problems (some of which can be helped by psychiatric drugs), then

the

> > >addictive drug, and perhaps the addict life-style, may seem more

like a

> > >solution than a problem.

> > >

> > >> Medication can help break through all that. Very quickly.

I think

> > >>most addicts should go on it, at least for a while, until they

can get a

> > >>hold of themselves.

> > >

> > >Don't know about " most " , but certainly some. I did for a year, and

I

> believe

> > >it helped.

> > >

> > >-- wally

> > >

> > >> I know for me, my life has never been the same since I

started to

> > >>taking antidepressants. I have a lot more self control now. And

I

> don't

> > >>deliberately try to defeat myself like I did before. I don't

have this

> > >dark

> > >>desire to derail myself as much as before. And my life isn't

constant

> > >>chaos.

> > >> The good thing is, even when I stop taking the meds I am

still

> > >>different than before. It does become harder to control my self

> > >destructive

> > >>impulses. But I still can do it.

> > >>Matt

> > >>

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >------------------------------------------------------------------

------

> > >Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.

> > >http://clickhere./click/1702

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >-- Create a poll/survey for your group!

> > >-- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

> > Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

> >

[Guest guest]

Is this for real?

apple

" wendy rose " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9704

> Father ? Oh Man, does that ring a bell!!

>

> Seems he dropped out of sight in the late 80s after becoming involved

> in a scandal involving young boys...

>

>

[Guest guest]

Apple, I am pretty sure he was coaching a boy's hockey team and got

*ahem* " involved " . I remember " murmurings " about it.

If I have my facts straight, he is from Michigan and was defrocked.

I can't confirm this, but maybe someone else can help out with this

story.

" apple " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9705

> Is this for real?

> apple

>

> " wendy rose " wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9704

> > Father ? Oh Man, does that ring a bell!!

> >

> > Seems he dropped out of sight in the late 80s after becoming

involved

> > in a scandal involving young boys...

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Apple, I am pretty sure he was coaching a boy's hockey team and got

*ahem* " involved " . I remember " murmurings " about it.

If I have my facts straight, he is from Michigan and was defrocked.

I can't confirm this, but maybe someone else can help out with this

story.

" apple " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9705

> Is this for real?

> apple

>

> " wendy rose " wrote:

> original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9704

> > Father ? Oh Man, does that ring a bell!!

> >

> > Seems he dropped out of sight in the late 80s after becoming

involved

> > in a scandal involving young boys...

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

And why don't you read my posts more carefully before YOU make

accusations?

uncarti-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9708

> In a message dated 11/23/99 6:28:56 AM Central Standard Time,

> wrose2@... writes:

>

> >

> > Apple, I am pretty sure he was coaching a boy's hockey team and got

> > *ahem* " involved " . I remember " murmurings " about it.

> >

> > If I have my facts straight, he is from Michigan and was defrocked.

> >

> > I can't confirm this, but maybe someone else can help out with this

> > story.

> >

> >

> >

> You have this all wrong. See http://fathermartinsashley

..com/

>

> You really need to check your facts before villifying someone!

> Artie

[Guest guest]

I can't say that every person who has a substance abuse problem should be

put on meds. Its not a " one size fits all " deal. But I think a lot of

addicts would benefit greatly from them. The meds could help reduce

cravings and help stabilize their mood, only if they abstain though. Then,

after the person is stable, they could probably stop taking the meds.

I've just seen first hand people in AA who ride the wave of

addiction, even after quitting alcohol. They go from drinking to gambling

to sexual compulsion to eating to exercise. Their addictive behavior is

controlling them rather than vice versa. Medication can halt a lot of that.

And make a person look at exactly what made them vulnerable to addiction

in their first place (i.e. childhood, parents, etc.)

I think society would be amazed at how many AA members still have so

called " side " addictions they are indulging in. Sometimes, they indulge

during the meetings! I can't tell you how many sexual predators I have seen

in the rooms, zooming in on helpless newcomers. (I've seen men and women

sexual deviants in AA, not just men.)

And many AA members have sober poker parties where they can lose up to

$50 a night. And lots of AA men go to strip clubs and blow countless

dollars on " lap dances. "

And these are the members with lots of sobriety who are supposed to be

idolized by newcomers!! " Stop the Insanity!!! "

Matt

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: Re: Tale of 12 step woe

>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 20:52:02 -0500

>

>

>-----Original Message-----

>

>

>

> >Thanks Apple. I've become more and more convinced that repeat trips to

> >rehab are counterproductive. Everyday I go to work I walk by a Alcohol &

> >Drug treatment center. I'll see a group of patients outside smoking

>while

> >laughing nervously and avoiding eye contact. Occasionally I've had the

> >desire to walk up and ask them, " is this working? Or is it a complete

>waste

> >of time? " I wonder what they'd say.

>

>Heck, even I can answer that one for you. They'd say something like:

> Thanks to this Wonderful Program, my Counselor Joe H., the Steps, and

>my

>Higher Power (who I discovered last week), I have a real sense of hope for

>the first time. I don't know if it's 'working', but I do know that I am

>being given all the tools I need to make it work when I leave here. The

>rest

>is up to me, and if it doesn't work that only means that I didn't Truly

>Surrender and Work the Program.

>

>And why would any adult with an IQ over 63 babble such mush in public?

>Well,

>the reason is that when he went in the front door, probably under duress or

>drunk or both, the Staff did their best to get him to sign a form

>permitting

>them to freely contact as many outside parties (family, employer,

>professional association, union, parole officer, lawyer...) as possible,

>and

>then when he came out of the haze he quickly learned that if he didn't

>spout

>the obeisances, his Compliance Failure would be reflected in Progress

>Reports to all and sundry, and furthermore he would surely Drink and Die in

>complete disgrace and hideous physical agony.

>

>And after 30 days of saying things like this in sessions, formal and

>informal, with your Peers (all of which, should it not toe the line, comes

>up in Group the next day) you go out almost believing it for a couple of

>days.

>

>Ah, the memories... I will never forget sitting in a circle with my Peers

>one sunny Saturday morning in Spofford Hall when, after the usual moment of

>profoundly silent meditation, the StepGoblin, in his sepulchral voice,

>chanted the words that opened the Group: " Who Isn't Changing? " Fear

>clutched

>every heart, as each of us scrambled to figure out exactly who it was that

>Wasn't Changing, and why it Wasn't Me, before it became our turn to Share.

>Many Changes were Shared, and they were all profound, especially

>considering

>that they had happened within the past month. Turned out it was X. who

>Wasn't Changing. His sin was basic: he wouldn't emote properly when he

>admitted that he had the Disease of Alcoholism. He had even said once, in a

>careless moment, that he thought he just drank too much because of some

>problems he had. The consequence? " is a Dead Man. " We gulped. Some of

>us tried to help out , pointing to instances in which he had made some

>effort to work the First Step. Each potential ally was skillfully shot down

>by the StepGoblin, until the entire circle was in agreement that

>Wasn't

>Changing and hence was a Dead Man. Including .

>

>Questions for meditation:

> (1) Who, at least before the Dead Man Group, had been the sanest

>person

>in the circle?

> (2) What coping skills were we learning here, to help us get on with

>our

>lives after Treatment?

> (3) Does this sound like good therapy for depression?

>

> >In my opinion rehab is an exercise in

> >helplessness.

>

>Bingo. Also an exercise in charging hospital rates for presenting movies,

>lectures, and rap sessions to a bunch of unfortunates who are in various

>kinds of deep doo-doo, and who will probably not succeed in exposing the

>scam before the next quarterly earnings report comes out.

>

> > For 30 days you have others telling you how to live your life. You

> >aren't allowed to think for yourself. Then you are released to the

>outside

> >world. Has anything changed? Have you learned any new coping skills. I

> >doubt it seriously.

>

>Me too ;-) I went through a couple of Grade A 30-day StepPrograms way back

>when. I can remember times when people graduated with All the (Simple

>Spiritual) Tools to Stay Sober One-day-at-a-time-forever, and phoned their

>friends back in Treatment the very same day, drunk and in tearful anguish,

>explaining that not only did they forget to Work the Program, but It's

>Different Out There! And it was a tradition that on the way out, everybody

>put their names and phone numbers ( " Get Phone Numbers! " ) in each other's

>Big

>Books, which meant that on top of all the other benefits of your $x000

>learning experience, you were entitled to a series of phone calls from

>drunk

>people over a period of 3 months. Then there's always Aftercare, where you

>go for 2 hours a week for a while to find out who, if anybody, hasn't

>Slipped yet.

>

>You're right, it's 30 days in Fairyland. Would it not make sense, if you

>are

>going to cure people by providing them with movies, lectures, and rap

>sessions, to at least do it on an outpatient basis for 1/20 of the cost,

>and

>let them go about their lives in their own communities so they try out

>their

>new coping skills as they learn them? Yes it would. It's even been done.

>One

>drawback is that it's harder to brainwash people if you don't isolate them.

>

> > I strongly believe that medication can really help an addict. As

>long

> >as the addict abstains. At least in the short term, psychiatric drugs

>can

> >help a person recognize patterns and see the big picture. I think a lot

>of

> >addicts have such a hard time stopping because they have " trained there

> >brains " to use alcohol and drugs. Their brain chemistry has changed.

>And

> >the 12 steps cannot change a person's brain chemistry.

>

>Could be. And if you try to just deal with the " addiction " and ignore real

>problems (some of which can be helped by psychiatric drugs), then the

>addictive drug, and perhaps the addict life-style, may seem more like a

>solution than a problem.

>

> > Medication can help break through all that. Very quickly. I think

> >most addicts should go on it, at least for a while, until they can get a

> >hold of themselves.

>

>Don't know about " most " , but certainly some. I did for a year, and I

>believe

>it helped.

>

>-- wally

>

> > I know for me, my life has never been the same since I started to

> >taking antidepressants. I have a lot more self control now. And I don't

> >deliberately try to defeat myself like I did before. I don't have this

>dark

> >desire to derail myself as much as before. And my life isn't constant

> >chaos.

> > The good thing is, even when I stop taking the meds I am still

> >different than before. It does become harder to control my self

>destructive

> >impulses. But I still can do it.

> >Matt

> >

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.

>http://clickhere./click/1702

>

>

>

>-- Create a poll/survey for your group!

>-- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Excuse me but your way off base. Visit http://fathermartinsashley.com/

and read the facts before making slanderous statements!

In a message dated 11/23/99 11:40:08 AM Central Standard Time,

butterbeana@... writes:

> REALLY??? He's a pedophile??? WOW!!!

> Re: Tale of 12 step woe

>

>

> > Father ? Oh Man, does that ring a bell!!

> >

> > Seems he dropped out of sight in the late 80s after becoming involved

> > in a scandal involving young boys...

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Excuse me but your way off base. Visit http://fathermartinsashley.com/

and read the facts before making slanderous statements!

In a message dated 11/23/99 11:40:08 AM Central Standard Time,

butterbeana@... writes:

> REALLY??? He's a pedophile??? WOW!!!

> Re: Tale of 12 step woe

>

>

> > Father ? Oh Man, does that ring a bell!!

> >

> > Seems he dropped out of sight in the late 80s after becoming involved

> > in a scandal involving young boys...

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

REALLY??? He's a pedophile??? WOW!!!

Re: Tale of 12 step woe

> >

> >

> > > The trouble with doing all that stuff (movies, lectures, etc.) on an

> > outpatient basis is that people realize very quickly that they are

> paying

> > $95-$150 an hour for something they could rent (if they wanted) for

> $5.

> > Also they get very bored. I think that kind of treatment has people

> begging

> > to be allowed to go to AA meetings instead.

> > > ---

> > > Kayleigh

> > >

> > > Zz

> > > zZ

> > > |\ z _,,,---,,_

> > > /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

> > > |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

> > > '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > >-----Original Message-----

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >>Thanks Apple. I've become more and more convinced that repeat

> trips to

> > > >>rehab are counterproductive. Everyday I go to work I walk by a

> Alcohol

> > &

> > > >>Drug treatment center. I'll see a group of patients outside

> smoking

> > while

> > > >>laughing nervously and avoiding eye contact. Occasionally I've

> had the

> > > >>desire to walk up and ask them, " is this working? Or is it a

> complete

> > > >waste

> > > >>of time? " I wonder what they'd say.

> > > >

> > > >Heck, even I can answer that one for you. They'd say something

> like:

> > > > Thanks to this Wonderful Program, my Counselor Joe H., the

> Steps, and

> > my

> > > >Higher Power (who I discovered last week), I have a real sense of

> hope

> > for

> > > >the first time. I don't know if it's 'working', but I do know that

> I am

> > > >being given all the tools I need to make it work when I leave

> here. The

> > rest

> > > >is up to me, and if it doesn't work that only means that I didn't

> Truly

> > > >Surrender and Work the Program.

> > > >

> > > >And why would any adult with an IQ over 63 babble such mush in

> public?

> > Well,

> > > >the reason is that when he went in the front door, probably under

> duress

> > or

> > > >drunk or both, the Staff did their best to get him to sign a form

> > permitting

> > > >them to freely contact as many outside parties (family, employer,

> > > >professional association, union, parole officer, lawyer...) as

> possible,

> > and

> > > >then when he came out of the haze he quickly learned that if he

> didn't

> > spout

> > > >the obeisances, his Compliance Failure would be reflected in

> Progress

> > > >Reports to all and sundry, and furthermore he would surely Drink

> and Die

> > in

> > > >complete disgrace and hideous physical agony.

> > > >

> > > >And after 30 days of saying things like this in sessions, formal

> and

> > > >informal, with your Peers (all of which, should it not toe the

> line,

> > comes

> > > >up in Group the next day) you go out almost believing it for a

> couple of

> > > >days.

> > > >

> > > >Ah, the memories... I will never forget sitting in a circle with

> my Peers

> > > >one sunny Saturday morning in Spofford Hall when, after the usual

> moment

> > of

> > > >profoundly silent meditation, the StepGoblin, in his sepulchral

> voice,

> > > >chanted the words that opened the Group: " Who Isn't Changing? " Fear

> > clutched

> > > >every heart, as each of us scrambled to figure out exactly who it

> was

> > that

> > > >Wasn't Changing, and why it Wasn't Me, before it became our turn to

> > Share.

> > > >Many Changes were Shared, and they were all profound, especially

> > considering

> > > >that they had happened within the past month. Turned out it was

> X.

> > who

> > > >Wasn't Changing. His sin was basic: he wouldn't emote properly

> when he

> > > >admitted that he had the Disease of Alcoholism. He had even said

> once, in

> > a

> > > >careless moment, that he thought he just drank too much because of

> some

> > > >problems he had. The consequence? " is a Dead Man. " We gulped.

> Some

> > of

> > > >us tried to help out , pointing to instances in which he had

> made

> > some

> > > >effort to work the First Step. Each potential ally was skillfully

> shot

> > down

> > > >by the StepGoblin, until the entire circle was in agreement that

>

> > Wasn't

> > > >Changing and hence was a Dead Man. Including .

> > > >

> > > >Questions for meditation:

> > > > (1) Who, at least before the Dead Man Group, had been the

> sanest

> > person

> > > >in the circle?

> > > > (2) What coping skills were we learning here, to help us get

> on with

> > our

> > > >lives after Treatment?

> > > > (3) Does this sound like good therapy for depression?

> > > >

> > > >>In my opinion rehab is an exercise in

> > > >>helplessness.

> > > >

> > > >Bingo. Also an exercise in charging hospital rates for presenting

> movies,

> > > >lectures, and rap sessions to a bunch of unfortunates who are in

> various

> > > >kinds of deep doo-doo, and who will probably not succeed in

> exposing the

> > > >scam before the next quarterly earnings report comes out.

> > > >

> > > >> For 30 days you have others telling you how to live your

> life. You

> > > >>aren't allowed to think for yourself. Then you are released to

> the

> > outside

> > > >>world. Has anything changed? Have you learned any new coping

> skills.

> > I

> > > >>doubt it seriously.

> > > >

> > > >Me too ;-) I went through a couple of Grade A 30-day StepPrograms

> way

> > back

> > > >when. I can remember times when people graduated with All the

> (Simple

> > > >Spiritual) Tools to Stay Sober One-day-at-a-time-forever, and

> phoned

> > their

> > > >friends back in Treatment the very same day, drunk and in tearful

> > anguish,

> > > >explaining that not only did they forget to Work the Program, but

> It's

> > > >Different Out There! And it was a tradition that on the way out,

> > everybody

> > > >put their names and phone numbers ( " Get Phone Numbers! " ) in each

> other's

> > Big

> > > >Books, which meant that on top of all the other benefits of your

> $x000

> > > >learning experience, you were entitled to a series of phone calls

> from

> > drunk

> > > >people over a period of 3 months. Then there's always Aftercare,

> where

> > you

> > > >go for 2 hours a week for a while to find out who, if anybody,

> hasn't

> > > >Slipped yet.

> > > >

> > > >You're right, it's 30 days in Fairyland. Would it not make sense,

> if you

> > are

> > > >going to cure people by providing them with movies, lectures, and

> rap

> > > >sessions, to at least do it on an outpatient basis for 1/20 of the

> cost,

> > and

> > > >let them go about their lives in their own communities so they try

> out

> > their

> > > >new coping skills as they learn them? Yes it would. It's even been

> done.

> > One

> > > >drawback is that it's harder to brainwash people if you don't

> isolate

> > them.

> > > >

> > > >> I strongly believe that medication can really help an

> addict. As

> > > >long

> > > >>as the addict abstains. At least in the short term, psychiatric

> drugs

> > can

> > > >>help a person recognize patterns and see the big picture. I

> think a lot

> > of

> > > >>addicts have such a hard time stopping because they have " trained

> there

> > > >>brains " to use alcohol and drugs. Their brain chemistry has

> changed.

> > And

> > > >>the 12 steps cannot change a person's brain chemistry.

> > > >

> > > >Could be. And if you try to just deal with the " addiction " and

> ignore

> > real

> > > >problems (some of which can be helped by psychiatric drugs), then

> the

> > > >addictive drug, and perhaps the addict life-style, may seem more

> like a

> > > >solution than a problem.

> > > >

> > > >> Medication can help break through all that. Very quickly.

> I think

> > > >>most addicts should go on it, at least for a while, until they

> can get a

> > > >>hold of themselves.

> > > >

> > > >Don't know about " most " , but certainly some. I did for a year, and

> I

> > believe

> > > >it helped.

> > > >

> > > >-- wally

> > > >

> > > >> I know for me, my life has never been the same since I

> started to

> > > >>taking antidepressants. I have a lot more self control now. And

> I

> > don't

> > > >>deliberately try to defeat myself like I did before. I don't

> have this

> > > >dark

> > > >>desire to derail myself as much as before. And my life isn't

> constant

> > > >>chaos.

> > > >> The good thing is, even when I stop taking the meds I am

> still

> > > >>different than before. It does become harder to control my self

> > > >destructive

> > > >>impulses. But I still can do it.

> > > >>Matt

> > > >>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------

> ------

> > > >Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.

> > > >http://clickhere./click/1702

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >-- Create a poll/survey for your group!

> > > >-- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

> > > Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

> > >

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Looking for the latest consumer electronic gadgets or computer

> equipment? eBay has thousands of audio equipment, computer

> games & accessories. You never know what you might find at eBay!

> http://clickhere./click/1142

>

> -- Create a poll/survey for your group!

> -- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

[Guest guest]

OH CRIPES! Not another 'flame war' puleezzzee!

Re: Tale of 12 step woe

> Your posts speak for themselves. You made totally

> unsubstantiated,unproven,allegations and innuendos. Your posts are

reckless

> and quite possibly actionable for defamation and slander.

> Artie

>

> In a message dated 11/23/99 6:59:47 AM Central Standard Time,

> wrose2@... writes:

>

> >

> > And why don't you read my posts more carefully before YOU make

> > accusations?

> >

> > uncarti-@... wrote:

> > original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9708

> > > In a message dated 11/23/99 6:28:56 AM Central Standard Time,

> > > wrose2@... writes:

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Apple, I am pretty sure he was coaching a boy's hockey team and

got

> > > > *ahem* " involved " . I remember " murmurings " about it.

> > > >

> > > > If I have my facts straight, he is from Michigan and was

defrocked.

> > > >

> > > > I can't confirm this, but maybe someone else can help out with

this

> > > > story.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > You have this all wrong. See http://fathermartinsashley

> > .com/

> > >

> > > You really need to check your facts before villifying someone!

> > > Artie

> >

> >

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Looking for the latest consumer electronic gadgets or computer

> equipment? eBay has thousands of audio equipment, computer

> games & accessories. You never know what you might find at eBay!

> http://clickhere./click/1142

>

> -- Create a poll/survey for your group!

> -- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

[Guest guest]

-----Original Message-----

>The trouble with doing all that stuff (movies, lectures, etc.) on an

outpatient basis is that people realize very quickly that they are paying

$95-$150 an hour for something they could rent (if they wanted) for $5.

Also they get very bored. I think that kind of treatment has people begging

to be allowed to go to AA meetings instead.

>---

>Kayleigh

A local HMO has a thing where the co-payment is nominal. They do the

movie/lecture/rap number for 2 weeks (3 hours weeknight evenings), and then

they have groups you can go to up to 3 times a week, indefinitely, for $2 a

visit. Of course I'm not too surprised to hear that somebody out there is

charging more

Indeed, it's all pretty dull and trivial. Maybe there is a ceremonial

benefit for some people. Thanks to the media, there is a common perception

that you can't just quit drinking -- you have to " do something about your

drinking. " If this perceived need can be met cheaply and simply by showing

some Father movies, so that folks can then say " OK, I did something

about my drinking " and then move on, well why not?

--wally

>

> Zz

> zZ

> |\ z _,,,---,,_

> /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

> |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

> '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>

[Guest guest]

I am kind of new here and am a little taken back by this exchange. If

I ask if a rumour is true about some 12 step wonder am I going to get

blasted? I thought this was a safe place for those of us who feel

betrayed and hurt by AA. This exchange makes me feel uncomfortable,

just like all of us I have had enough abuse, I don't need to go looking

for more. So is this a safe friendly place or what?

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9708

> In a message dated 11/23/99 6:28:56 AM Central Standard Time,

> wrose2@... writes:

>

> >

> > Apple, I am pretty sure he was coaching a boy's hockey team and got

> > *ahem* " involved " . I remember " murmurings " about it.

> >

> > If I have my facts straight, he is from Michigan and was defrocked.

> >

> > I can't confirm this, but maybe someone else can help out with this

> > story.

> >

> >

> >

> You have this all wrong. See http://fathermartinsashley

..com/

>

> You really need to check your facts before villifying someone!

> Artie

[Guest guest]

Excuse me. I posted that before I read the next messages which said this

wasn't true. I was asking a question, not making a slanderous statement.

It appears that you are really heated up on this topic. I absolutely refuse

to be part of a flame war. So please chill out

~Trixxi

Re: Tale of 12 step woe

> >

> >

> > > Father ? Oh Man, does that ring a bell!!

> > >

> > > Seems he dropped out of sight in the late 80s after becoming involved

> > > in a scandal involving young boys...

> > >

> > >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> -- Create a poll/survey for your group!

> -- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone,

I beleive Father is being confused with Father Ritter of Covenent

House, a Roman Catholic run system of homeless shelters based in NYC. The

last I heard, they were thring to send him to India to work with children.

Fortunately, India declined.

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone,

I beleive Father is being confused with Father Ritter of Covenent

House, a Roman Catholic run system of homeless shelters based in NYC. The

last I heard, they were thring to send him to India to work with children.

Fortunately, India declined.