Guest guest Posted October 20, 1999 Report Share Posted October 20, 1999 Good job! I never had the guts to speak out like that while at an aa meeting. I always brought a book with me to read during meetings to counteract any negative aa influence. Something like The Real AA: Behind The Myth of 12 Step Recovery by Ken Ragge or Stanton Peele's The Truth About Addiction And Recovery - excellent aadeprogramming material. I would not even listen to what was being said or to who was talking. If and when I did I would always challenge, dispute, and replace the aa logic with more rational thinking. It helps to have Albert Ellis in your back pocket. jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 1999 Report Share Posted October 20, 1999 Good job! I never had the guts to speak out like that while at an aa meeting. I always brought a book with me to read during meetings to counteract any negative aa influence. Something like The Real AA: Behind The Myth of 12 Step Recovery by Ken Ragge or Stanton Peele's The Truth About Addiction And Recovery - excellent aadeprogramming material. I would not even listen to what was being said or to who was talking. If and when I did I would always challenge, dispute, and replace the aa logic with more rational thinking. It helps to have Albert Ellis in your back pocket. jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 1999 Report Share Posted October 20, 1999 Hi : Boy, would I like to have been there at that meeting. The tough part has always been that I was labeled a black sheep... a rebellious sort. Things may never be the same again for you after what you've done. (telling the truth!) When I went to meetings for a few years, I had an awareness that what was going on was simple craziness. I just pretended I was watching a TV station that was turned to a channel that is not there. White noise. Keep us up to date. Apple > > I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to avoid > indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or spoken of > in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind off > the crazy talk. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 1999 Report Share Posted October 20, 1999 Hi : Boy, would I like to have been there at that meeting. The tough part has always been that I was labeled a black sheep... a rebellious sort. Things may never be the same again for you after what you've done. (telling the truth!) When I went to meetings for a few years, I had an awareness that what was going on was simple craziness. I just pretended I was watching a TV station that was turned to a channel that is not there. White noise. Keep us up to date. Apple > > I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to avoid > indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or spoken of > in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind off > the crazy talk. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 1999 Report Share Posted October 20, 1999 Hi : Boy, would I like to have been there at that meeting. The tough part has always been that I was labeled a black sheep... a rebellious sort. Things may never be the same again for you after what you've done. (telling the truth!) When I went to meetings for a few years, I had an awareness that what was going on was simple craziness. I just pretended I was watching a TV station that was turned to a channel that is not there. White noise. Keep us up to date. Apple > > I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to avoid > indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or spoken of > in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind off > the crazy talk. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 1999 Report Share Posted October 20, 1999 hecotr, that was jsut about the greatest thing i have ever heard of being said in a meeting! i aplaud you standing up for yourself and your beliefs. No one in any meeting can take your right to express yourself away from you. Bravo! if the " only requirement of membership " was really a desire to stop drinking, then nothing you said should be offensive, or so you would think. are you being compelled to ateend these meetings by the courts? if not, why are you going? dave hector arroyo wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8725 > Hello Group, > > This being my first foray into 12sf, I thought I'd let y'all know what > happened to me tonight. After having read over one thousand messages to > this group I finally had the courage to speak my mind in a meeting. It > wasn't particularly difficult for me to do; however, the aftermath was a > little difficult to swallow. > > Turning it over to your higher power was the topic and after hearing 20 > some odd people declare their gratitude to theirs for helping to heal them > of their terrible disease I wasn't in the mood for another round of > placating the program. Sure I'm required to be there but this group has > reminded me that I don't have to be a mindless zombie about it. > > As usual I didn't place my name on the list but just as usually happens I > was called on anyway. So I shared. > > I let everyone in the room know, in no uncertain terms, that I did not have > a disease. > > That when I first came into the program 7 months ago I bought that line of > hogwash because it was easier than admitting I (me personally, me myself > and I) was responsible for what I had been doing to myself. It wasn't an > easy realization to come by as the tendency, for me, is to seek shelter in > a friendlier " you're ok it's the disease working " mentality. From the > beginning this didn't seem quite right to me and I steadfastly refused to > work the steps or get a sponsor. > > Now; however, I realize that I had taken my personal desire to be > intoxicated to an irresponsibly dangerous level. The truth is I liked > being drunk and if any opportunity for becoming drunk showed itself I took > it. Since I had gotten myself into this situation it was up to me to get > myself out of it and that is what I'm doing now but I don't need a higher > power to do for me what I can do for myself. > > After sharing these little tidbits one of the sickest people in the rooms > > (you know the kind, one of those fellows who's been in the rooms for > several years and keeps drinking and coming back and drinking and coming > back and letting the whole world know how it's different this time and how > he's got a new therapist and he'll quit now and yadda yadda yadda for 45 or > so minutes) > > felt he had to speak again and angrily let everyone in the room know he > felt I shouldn't be there as I didn't think I was an alcoholic and that I > was making him uncomfortable so I should stop coming. > > I thanked him from the bottom of my heart and let him know I didn't give a > damn what he thought. Right about then an old timer (20 some odd years in) > just as angry as the first seconded the first idiots opinion so I turned to > him and thanked him and let him know I didn't give a damn what he thought > either and that I would say what I wanted whether they liked it or not. > > The moderator attempted to interrupt my response which I refused to let him > do as I felt I had been personally attacked and every bit justified in my > response. > > The odd thing about the whole exchange was that quite a few people were > actually laughing about it. One guy went so far as to say he agreed with > me and he seconded me when I told the second idiot I didn't give a damn > what he thought either. > > For the first time I absolutely refused to tow the party line in what I > shared and I received ........... you guessed it absolutely no cracker as a > matter of fact they raided my cracker barrel. > > Do I feel good about the exchange? Not really, but it was necessary for me > to grow I think. If there was ever any doubt about not cow towing the > party line it evaporated tonight. The really good part is it had to have > evaporated in many newbie minds as well. > > The truth is that no matter how hard some of the old timers tried to lay > the dry drunk tag on me they just couldn't. I'm a naturally up kind of > person when I'm not drinking. It's kind of difficult to hang that type of > tag on the happiest most upbeat person in the room. That's not to say I > don't have my share of problems. I do but after I started reading the > messages in this group I realized a lot of them stemmed from AA. So while > I'm still required to go to AA meetings I content myself with ignoring > everyone but the newbies I've noticed have attracted the attention of some > of the nefarious old timers. > > For awhile I was concerned that I might be indoctrinated against my will by > the power of osmosis. Now I content myself in taking a lot of smoking > breaks, ignoring people, thinking about making snorting noises into a > Styrofoam cup (I'm still chuckling about that one) and steadfastly refusing > to utilize any of the XA jargon. I'm not always successful with the last > but I'm working on it. > > I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to avoid > indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or spoken of > in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind off > the crazy talk. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 1999 Report Share Posted October 20, 1999 hecotr, that was jsut about the greatest thing i have ever heard of being said in a meeting! i aplaud you standing up for yourself and your beliefs. No one in any meeting can take your right to express yourself away from you. Bravo! if the " only requirement of membership " was really a desire to stop drinking, then nothing you said should be offensive, or so you would think. are you being compelled to ateend these meetings by the courts? if not, why are you going? dave hector arroyo wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8725 > Hello Group, > > This being my first foray into 12sf, I thought I'd let y'all know what > happened to me tonight. After having read over one thousand messages to > this group I finally had the courage to speak my mind in a meeting. It > wasn't particularly difficult for me to do; however, the aftermath was a > little difficult to swallow. > > Turning it over to your higher power was the topic and after hearing 20 > some odd people declare their gratitude to theirs for helping to heal them > of their terrible disease I wasn't in the mood for another round of > placating the program. Sure I'm required to be there but this group has > reminded me that I don't have to be a mindless zombie about it. > > As usual I didn't place my name on the list but just as usually happens I > was called on anyway. So I shared. > > I let everyone in the room know, in no uncertain terms, that I did not have > a disease. > > That when I first came into the program 7 months ago I bought that line of > hogwash because it was easier than admitting I (me personally, me myself > and I) was responsible for what I had been doing to myself. It wasn't an > easy realization to come by as the tendency, for me, is to seek shelter in > a friendlier " you're ok it's the disease working " mentality. From the > beginning this didn't seem quite right to me and I steadfastly refused to > work the steps or get a sponsor. > > Now; however, I realize that I had taken my personal desire to be > intoxicated to an irresponsibly dangerous level. The truth is I liked > being drunk and if any opportunity for becoming drunk showed itself I took > it. Since I had gotten myself into this situation it was up to me to get > myself out of it and that is what I'm doing now but I don't need a higher > power to do for me what I can do for myself. > > After sharing these little tidbits one of the sickest people in the rooms > > (you know the kind, one of those fellows who's been in the rooms for > several years and keeps drinking and coming back and drinking and coming > back and letting the whole world know how it's different this time and how > he's got a new therapist and he'll quit now and yadda yadda yadda for 45 or > so minutes) > > felt he had to speak again and angrily let everyone in the room know he > felt I shouldn't be there as I didn't think I was an alcoholic and that I > was making him uncomfortable so I should stop coming. > > I thanked him from the bottom of my heart and let him know I didn't give a > damn what he thought. Right about then an old timer (20 some odd years in) > just as angry as the first seconded the first idiots opinion so I turned to > him and thanked him and let him know I didn't give a damn what he thought > either and that I would say what I wanted whether they liked it or not. > > The moderator attempted to interrupt my response which I refused to let him > do as I felt I had been personally attacked and every bit justified in my > response. > > The odd thing about the whole exchange was that quite a few people were > actually laughing about it. One guy went so far as to say he agreed with > me and he seconded me when I told the second idiot I didn't give a damn > what he thought either. > > For the first time I absolutely refused to tow the party line in what I > shared and I received ........... you guessed it absolutely no cracker as a > matter of fact they raided my cracker barrel. > > Do I feel good about the exchange? Not really, but it was necessary for me > to grow I think. If there was ever any doubt about not cow towing the > party line it evaporated tonight. The really good part is it had to have > evaporated in many newbie minds as well. > > The truth is that no matter how hard some of the old timers tried to lay > the dry drunk tag on me they just couldn't. I'm a naturally up kind of > person when I'm not drinking. It's kind of difficult to hang that type of > tag on the happiest most upbeat person in the room. That's not to say I > don't have my share of problems. I do but after I started reading the > messages in this group I realized a lot of them stemmed from AA. So while > I'm still required to go to AA meetings I content myself with ignoring > everyone but the newbies I've noticed have attracted the attention of some > of the nefarious old timers. > > For awhile I was concerned that I might be indoctrinated against my will by > the power of osmosis. Now I content myself in taking a lot of smoking > breaks, ignoring people, thinking about making snorting noises into a > Styrofoam cup (I'm still chuckling about that one) and steadfastly refusing > to utilize any of the XA jargon. I'm not always successful with the last > but I'm working on it. > > I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to avoid > indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or spoken of > in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind off > the crazy talk. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 1999 Report Share Posted October 20, 1999 hecotr, that was jsut about the greatest thing i have ever heard of being said in a meeting! i aplaud you standing up for yourself and your beliefs. No one in any meeting can take your right to express yourself away from you. Bravo! if the " only requirement of membership " was really a desire to stop drinking, then nothing you said should be offensive, or so you would think. are you being compelled to ateend these meetings by the courts? if not, why are you going? dave hector arroyo wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8725 > Hello Group, > > This being my first foray into 12sf, I thought I'd let y'all know what > happened to me tonight. After having read over one thousand messages to > this group I finally had the courage to speak my mind in a meeting. It > wasn't particularly difficult for me to do; however, the aftermath was a > little difficult to swallow. > > Turning it over to your higher power was the topic and after hearing 20 > some odd people declare their gratitude to theirs for helping to heal them > of their terrible disease I wasn't in the mood for another round of > placating the program. Sure I'm required to be there but this group has > reminded me that I don't have to be a mindless zombie about it. > > As usual I didn't place my name on the list but just as usually happens I > was called on anyway. So I shared. > > I let everyone in the room know, in no uncertain terms, that I did not have > a disease. > > That when I first came into the program 7 months ago I bought that line of > hogwash because it was easier than admitting I (me personally, me myself > and I) was responsible for what I had been doing to myself. It wasn't an > easy realization to come by as the tendency, for me, is to seek shelter in > a friendlier " you're ok it's the disease working " mentality. From the > beginning this didn't seem quite right to me and I steadfastly refused to > work the steps or get a sponsor. > > Now; however, I realize that I had taken my personal desire to be > intoxicated to an irresponsibly dangerous level. The truth is I liked > being drunk and if any opportunity for becoming drunk showed itself I took > it. Since I had gotten myself into this situation it was up to me to get > myself out of it and that is what I'm doing now but I don't need a higher > power to do for me what I can do for myself. > > After sharing these little tidbits one of the sickest people in the rooms > > (you know the kind, one of those fellows who's been in the rooms for > several years and keeps drinking and coming back and drinking and coming > back and letting the whole world know how it's different this time and how > he's got a new therapist and he'll quit now and yadda yadda yadda for 45 or > so minutes) > > felt he had to speak again and angrily let everyone in the room know he > felt I shouldn't be there as I didn't think I was an alcoholic and that I > was making him uncomfortable so I should stop coming. > > I thanked him from the bottom of my heart and let him know I didn't give a > damn what he thought. Right about then an old timer (20 some odd years in) > just as angry as the first seconded the first idiots opinion so I turned to > him and thanked him and let him know I didn't give a damn what he thought > either and that I would say what I wanted whether they liked it or not. > > The moderator attempted to interrupt my response which I refused to let him > do as I felt I had been personally attacked and every bit justified in my > response. > > The odd thing about the whole exchange was that quite a few people were > actually laughing about it. One guy went so far as to say he agreed with > me and he seconded me when I told the second idiot I didn't give a damn > what he thought either. > > For the first time I absolutely refused to tow the party line in what I > shared and I received ........... you guessed it absolutely no cracker as a > matter of fact they raided my cracker barrel. > > Do I feel good about the exchange? Not really, but it was necessary for me > to grow I think. If there was ever any doubt about not cow towing the > party line it evaporated tonight. The really good part is it had to have > evaporated in many newbie minds as well. > > The truth is that no matter how hard some of the old timers tried to lay > the dry drunk tag on me they just couldn't. I'm a naturally up kind of > person when I'm not drinking. It's kind of difficult to hang that type of > tag on the happiest most upbeat person in the room. That's not to say I > don't have my share of problems. I do but after I started reading the > messages in this group I realized a lot of them stemmed from AA. So while > I'm still required to go to AA meetings I content myself with ignoring > everyone but the newbies I've noticed have attracted the attention of some > of the nefarious old timers. > > For awhile I was concerned that I might be indoctrinated against my will by > the power of osmosis. Now I content myself in taking a lot of smoking > breaks, ignoring people, thinking about making snorting noises into a > Styrofoam cup (I'm still chuckling about that one) and steadfastly refusing > to utilize any of the XA jargon. I'm not always successful with the last > but I'm working on it. > > I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to avoid > indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or spoken of > in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind off > the crazy talk. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 1999 Report Share Posted October 20, 1999 hector, that was jsut about the greatest thing i have ever heard of being said in a meeting! i aplaud you standing up for yourself and your beliefs. No one in any meeting can take your right to express yourself away from you. Bravo! if the " only requirement of membership " was really a desire to stop drinking, then nothing you said should be offensive, or so you would think. are you being compelled to ateend these meetings by the courts? if not, why are you going? dave hector arroyo wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8725 > Hello Group, > > This being my first foray into 12sf, I thought I'd let y'all know what > happened to me tonight. After having read over one thousand messages to > this group I finally had the courage to speak my mind in a meeting. It > wasn't particularly difficult for me to do; however, the aftermath was a > little difficult to swallow. > > Turning it over to your higher power was the topic and after hearing 20 > some odd people declare their gratitude to theirs for helping to heal them > of their terrible disease I wasn't in the mood for another round of > placating the program. Sure I'm required to be there but this group has > reminded me that I don't have to be a mindless zombie about it. > > As usual I didn't place my name on the list but just as usually happens I > was called on anyway. So I shared. > > I let everyone in the room know, in no uncertain terms, that I did not have > a disease. > > That when I first came into the program 7 months ago I bought that line of > hogwash because it was easier than admitting I (me personally, me myself > and I) was responsible for what I had been doing to myself. It wasn't an > easy realization to come by as the tendency, for me, is to seek shelter in > a friendlier " you're ok it's the disease working " mentality. From the > beginning this didn't seem quite right to me and I steadfastly refused to > work the steps or get a sponsor. > > Now; however, I realize that I had taken my personal desire to be > intoxicated to an irresponsibly dangerous level. The truth is I liked > being drunk and if any opportunity for becoming drunk showed itself I took > it. Since I had gotten myself into this situation it was up to me to get > myself out of it and that is what I'm doing now but I don't need a higher > power to do for me what I can do for myself. > > After sharing these little tidbits one of the sickest people in the rooms > > (you know the kind, one of those fellows who's been in the rooms for > several years and keeps drinking and coming back and drinking and coming > back and letting the whole world know how it's different this time and how > he's got a new therapist and he'll quit now and yadda yadda yadda for 45 or > so minutes) > > felt he had to speak again and angrily let everyone in the room know he > felt I shouldn't be there as I didn't think I was an alcoholic and that I > was making him uncomfortable so I should stop coming. > > I thanked him from the bottom of my heart and let him know I didn't give a > damn what he thought. Right about then an old timer (20 some odd years in) > just as angry as the first seconded the first idiots opinion so I turned to > him and thanked him and let him know I didn't give a damn what he thought > either and that I would say what I wanted whether they liked it or not. > > The moderator attempted to interrupt my response which I refused to let him > do as I felt I had been personally attacked and every bit justified in my > response. > > The odd thing about the whole exchange was that quite a few people were > actually laughing about it. One guy went so far as to say he agreed with > me and he seconded me when I told the second idiot I didn't give a damn > what he thought either. > > For the first time I absolutely refused to tow the party line in what I > shared and I received ........... you guessed it absolutely no cracker as a > matter of fact they raided my cracker barrel. > > Do I feel good about the exchange? Not really, but it was necessary for me > to grow I think. If there was ever any doubt about not cow towing the > party line it evaporated tonight. The really good part is it had to have > evaporated in many newbie minds as well. > > The truth is that no matter how hard some of the old timers tried to lay > the dry drunk tag on me they just couldn't. I'm a naturally up kind of > person when I'm not drinking. It's kind of difficult to hang that type of > tag on the happiest most upbeat person in the room. That's not to say I > don't have my share of problems. I do but after I started reading the > messages in this group I realized a lot of them stemmed from AA. So while > I'm still required to go to AA meetings I content myself with ignoring > everyone but the newbies I've noticed have attracted the attention of some > of the nefarious old timers. > > For awhile I was concerned that I might be indoctrinated against my will by > the power of osmosis. Now I content myself in taking a lot of smoking > breaks, ignoring people, thinking about making snorting noises into a > Styrofoam cup (I'm still chuckling about that one) and steadfastly refusing > to utilize any of the XA jargon. I'm not always successful with the last > but I'm working on it. > > I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to avoid > indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or spoken of > in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind off > the crazy talk. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 1999 Report Share Posted October 20, 1999 hector, that was jsut about the greatest thing i have ever heard of being said in a meeting! i aplaud you standing up for yourself and your beliefs. No one in any meeting can take your right to express yourself away from you. Bravo! if the " only requirement of membership " was really a desire to stop drinking, then nothing you said should be offensive, or so you would think. are you being compelled to ateend these meetings by the courts? if not, why are you going? dave hector arroyo wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8725 > Hello Group, > > This being my first foray into 12sf, I thought I'd let y'all know what > happened to me tonight. After having read over one thousand messages to > this group I finally had the courage to speak my mind in a meeting. It > wasn't particularly difficult for me to do; however, the aftermath was a > little difficult to swallow. > > Turning it over to your higher power was the topic and after hearing 20 > some odd people declare their gratitude to theirs for helping to heal them > of their terrible disease I wasn't in the mood for another round of > placating the program. Sure I'm required to be there but this group has > reminded me that I don't have to be a mindless zombie about it. > > As usual I didn't place my name on the list but just as usually happens I > was called on anyway. So I shared. > > I let everyone in the room know, in no uncertain terms, that I did not have > a disease. > > That when I first came into the program 7 months ago I bought that line of > hogwash because it was easier than admitting I (me personally, me myself > and I) was responsible for what I had been doing to myself. It wasn't an > easy realization to come by as the tendency, for me, is to seek shelter in > a friendlier " you're ok it's the disease working " mentality. From the > beginning this didn't seem quite right to me and I steadfastly refused to > work the steps or get a sponsor. > > Now; however, I realize that I had taken my personal desire to be > intoxicated to an irresponsibly dangerous level. The truth is I liked > being drunk and if any opportunity for becoming drunk showed itself I took > it. Since I had gotten myself into this situation it was up to me to get > myself out of it and that is what I'm doing now but I don't need a higher > power to do for me what I can do for myself. > > After sharing these little tidbits one of the sickest people in the rooms > > (you know the kind, one of those fellows who's been in the rooms for > several years and keeps drinking and coming back and drinking and coming > back and letting the whole world know how it's different this time and how > he's got a new therapist and he'll quit now and yadda yadda yadda for 45 or > so minutes) > > felt he had to speak again and angrily let everyone in the room know he > felt I shouldn't be there as I didn't think I was an alcoholic and that I > was making him uncomfortable so I should stop coming. > > I thanked him from the bottom of my heart and let him know I didn't give a > damn what he thought. Right about then an old timer (20 some odd years in) > just as angry as the first seconded the first idiots opinion so I turned to > him and thanked him and let him know I didn't give a damn what he thought > either and that I would say what I wanted whether they liked it or not. > > The moderator attempted to interrupt my response which I refused to let him > do as I felt I had been personally attacked and every bit justified in my > response. > > The odd thing about the whole exchange was that quite a few people were > actually laughing about it. One guy went so far as to say he agreed with > me and he seconded me when I told the second idiot I didn't give a damn > what he thought either. > > For the first time I absolutely refused to tow the party line in what I > shared and I received ........... you guessed it absolutely no cracker as a > matter of fact they raided my cracker barrel. > > Do I feel good about the exchange? Not really, but it was necessary for me > to grow I think. If there was ever any doubt about not cow towing the > party line it evaporated tonight. The really good part is it had to have > evaporated in many newbie minds as well. > > The truth is that no matter how hard some of the old timers tried to lay > the dry drunk tag on me they just couldn't. I'm a naturally up kind of > person when I'm not drinking. It's kind of difficult to hang that type of > tag on the happiest most upbeat person in the room. That's not to say I > don't have my share of problems. I do but after I started reading the > messages in this group I realized a lot of them stemmed from AA. So while > I'm still required to go to AA meetings I content myself with ignoring > everyone but the newbies I've noticed have attracted the attention of some > of the nefarious old timers. > > For awhile I was concerned that I might be indoctrinated against my will by > the power of osmosis. Now I content myself in taking a lot of smoking > breaks, ignoring people, thinking about making snorting noises into a > Styrofoam cup (I'm still chuckling about that one) and steadfastly refusing > to utilize any of the XA jargon. I'm not always successful with the last > but I'm working on it. > > I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to avoid > indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or spoken of > in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind off > the crazy talk. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 1999 Report Share Posted October 20, 1999 hector, that was jsut about the greatest thing i have ever heard of being said in a meeting! i aplaud you standing up for yourself and your beliefs. No one in any meeting can take your right to express yourself away from you. Bravo! if the " only requirement of membership " was really a desire to stop drinking, then nothing you said should be offensive, or so you would think. are you being compelled to ateend these meetings by the courts? if not, why are you going? dave hector arroyo wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8725 > Hello Group, > > This being my first foray into 12sf, I thought I'd let y'all know what > happened to me tonight. After having read over one thousand messages to > this group I finally had the courage to speak my mind in a meeting. It > wasn't particularly difficult for me to do; however, the aftermath was a > little difficult to swallow. > > Turning it over to your higher power was the topic and after hearing 20 > some odd people declare their gratitude to theirs for helping to heal them > of their terrible disease I wasn't in the mood for another round of > placating the program. Sure I'm required to be there but this group has > reminded me that I don't have to be a mindless zombie about it. > > As usual I didn't place my name on the list but just as usually happens I > was called on anyway. So I shared. > > I let everyone in the room know, in no uncertain terms, that I did not have > a disease. > > That when I first came into the program 7 months ago I bought that line of > hogwash because it was easier than admitting I (me personally, me myself > and I) was responsible for what I had been doing to myself. It wasn't an > easy realization to come by as the tendency, for me, is to seek shelter in > a friendlier " you're ok it's the disease working " mentality. From the > beginning this didn't seem quite right to me and I steadfastly refused to > work the steps or get a sponsor. > > Now; however, I realize that I had taken my personal desire to be > intoxicated to an irresponsibly dangerous level. The truth is I liked > being drunk and if any opportunity for becoming drunk showed itself I took > it. Since I had gotten myself into this situation it was up to me to get > myself out of it and that is what I'm doing now but I don't need a higher > power to do for me what I can do for myself. > > After sharing these little tidbits one of the sickest people in the rooms > > (you know the kind, one of those fellows who's been in the rooms for > several years and keeps drinking and coming back and drinking and coming > back and letting the whole world know how it's different this time and how > he's got a new therapist and he'll quit now and yadda yadda yadda for 45 or > so minutes) > > felt he had to speak again and angrily let everyone in the room know he > felt I shouldn't be there as I didn't think I was an alcoholic and that I > was making him uncomfortable so I should stop coming. > > I thanked him from the bottom of my heart and let him know I didn't give a > damn what he thought. Right about then an old timer (20 some odd years in) > just as angry as the first seconded the first idiots opinion so I turned to > him and thanked him and let him know I didn't give a damn what he thought > either and that I would say what I wanted whether they liked it or not. > > The moderator attempted to interrupt my response which I refused to let him > do as I felt I had been personally attacked and every bit justified in my > response. > > The odd thing about the whole exchange was that quite a few people were > actually laughing about it. One guy went so far as to say he agreed with > me and he seconded me when I told the second idiot I didn't give a damn > what he thought either. > > For the first time I absolutely refused to tow the party line in what I > shared and I received ........... you guessed it absolutely no cracker as a > matter of fact they raided my cracker barrel. > > Do I feel good about the exchange? Not really, but it was necessary for me > to grow I think. If there was ever any doubt about not cow towing the > party line it evaporated tonight. The really good part is it had to have > evaporated in many newbie minds as well. > > The truth is that no matter how hard some of the old timers tried to lay > the dry drunk tag on me they just couldn't. I'm a naturally up kind of > person when I'm not drinking. It's kind of difficult to hang that type of > tag on the happiest most upbeat person in the room. That's not to say I > don't have my share of problems. I do but after I started reading the > messages in this group I realized a lot of them stemmed from AA. So while > I'm still required to go to AA meetings I content myself with ignoring > everyone but the newbies I've noticed have attracted the attention of some > of the nefarious old timers. > > For awhile I was concerned that I might be indoctrinated against my will by > the power of osmosis. Now I content myself in taking a lot of smoking > breaks, ignoring people, thinking about making snorting noises into a > Styrofoam cup (I'm still chuckling about that one) and steadfastly refusing > to utilize any of the XA jargon. I'm not always successful with the last > but I'm working on it. > > I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to avoid > indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or spoken of > in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind off > the crazy talk. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 1999 Report Share Posted October 20, 1999 That's awesome ! That took an amazing about of courage. I've always fantasized about doing that (speaking my mind at a meeting). I've daydreamed about it but never had the nerve to actually do it. I think you'd be surprised how many people in AA (who still have some of their free will left) would agree with you 100% that alcohol abuse is not a disease. Its just no one talks about. Most people just leave and don't come back. The next time someone tells you should leave or says, " if you don't like it, there's the door " ask them a question: 'Where am I supposed to go?' Tell them you don't want to drink and need help, but since you can't accept all of AA, what are you supposed to do? Turn it around on them. Explain to them that there are no other options because AA is hogging all the churches in your town. And they won't give SMART a fighting chance. That may take them by surprise. As far as blocking out the AA language and 'odes to the higher power' ad nauseum. I'd suggest just laughing about it. Do the same thing they did to you. Feel good about yourself that you are not living in that zombie like state anymore. That's what I do or try to do, when I attend AA. Keep up the good fight!!!! Matt > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: " '12-step-freeegroups' " <12-step-freeegroups> >Subject: It happened tonight! well errr Yesterday Night! >Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 00:32:05 -0500 > >Hello Group, > >This being my first foray into 12sf, I thought I'd let y'all know what >happened to me tonight. After having read over one thousand messages to >this group I finally had the courage to speak my mind in a meeting. It >wasn't particularly difficult for me to do; however, the aftermath was a >little difficult to swallow. > >Turning it over to your higher power was the topic and after hearing 20 >some odd people declare their gratitude to theirs for helping to heal them >of their terrible disease I wasn't in the mood for another round of >placating the program. Sure I'm required to be there but this group has >reminded me that I don't have to be a mindless zombie about it. > >As usual I didn't place my name on the list but just as usually happens I >was called on anyway. So I shared. > >I let everyone in the room know, in no uncertain terms, that I did not have >a disease. > >That when I first came into the program 7 months ago I bought that line of >hogwash because it was easier than admitting I (me personally, me myself >and I) was responsible for what I had been doing to myself. It wasn't an >easy realization to come by as the tendency, for me, is to seek shelter in >a friendlier " you're ok it's the disease working " mentality. From the >beginning this didn't seem quite right to me and I steadfastly refused to >work the steps or get a sponsor. > >Now; however, I realize that I had taken my personal desire to be >intoxicated to an irresponsibly dangerous level. The truth is I liked >being drunk and if any opportunity for becoming drunk showed itself I took >it. Since I had gotten myself into this situation it was up to me to get >myself out of it and that is what I'm doing now but I don't need a higher >power to do for me what I can do for myself. > >After sharing these little tidbits one of the sickest people in the rooms > >(you know the kind, one of those fellows who's been in the rooms for >several years and keeps drinking and coming back and drinking and coming >back and letting the whole world know how it's different this time and how >he's got a new therapist and he'll quit now and yadda yadda yadda for 45 or >so minutes) > >felt he had to speak again and angrily let everyone in the room know he >felt I shouldn't be there as I didn't think I was an alcoholic and that I >was making him uncomfortable so I should stop coming. > >I thanked him from the bottom of my heart and let him know I didn't give a >damn what he thought. Right about then an old timer (20 some odd years in) >just as angry as the first seconded the first idiots opinion so I turned to >him and thanked him and let him know I didn't give a damn what he thought >either and that I would say what I wanted whether they liked it or not. > >The moderator attempted to interrupt my response which I refused to let him >do as I felt I had been personally attacked and every bit justified in my >response. > >The odd thing about the whole exchange was that quite a few people were >actually laughing about it. One guy went so far as to say he agreed with >me and he seconded me when I told the second idiot I didn't give a damn >what he thought either. > >For the first time I absolutely refused to tow the party line in what I >shared and I received ........... you guessed it absolutely no cracker as a >matter of fact they raided my cracker barrel. > >Do I feel good about the exchange? Not really, but it was necessary for me >to grow I think. If there was ever any doubt about not cow towing the >party line it evaporated tonight. The really good part is it had to have >evaporated in many newbie minds as well. > >The truth is that no matter how hard some of the old timers tried to lay >the dry drunk tag on me they just couldn't. I'm a naturally up kind of >person when I'm not drinking. It's kind of difficult to hang that type of >tag on the happiest most upbeat person in the room. That's not to say I >don't have my share of problems. I do but after I started reading the >messages in this group I realized a lot of them stemmed from AA. So while >I'm still required to go to AA meetings I content myself with ignoring >everyone but the newbies I've noticed have attracted the attention of some >of the nefarious old timers. > >For awhile I was concerned that I might be indoctrinated against my will by >the power of osmosis. Now I content myself in taking a lot of smoking >breaks, ignoring people, thinking about making snorting noises into a >Styrofoam cup (I'm still chuckling about that one) and steadfastly refusing >to utilize any of the XA jargon. I'm not always successful with the last >but I'm working on it. > >I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to avoid >indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or spoken of >in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind off >the crazy talk. > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > ______________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 1999 Report Share Posted October 20, 1999 That's awesome ! That took an amazing about of courage. I've always fantasized about doing that (speaking my mind at a meeting). I've daydreamed about it but never had the nerve to actually do it. I think you'd be surprised how many people in AA (who still have some of their free will left) would agree with you 100% that alcohol abuse is not a disease. Its just no one talks about. Most people just leave and don't come back. The next time someone tells you should leave or says, " if you don't like it, there's the door " ask them a question: 'Where am I supposed to go?' Tell them you don't want to drink and need help, but since you can't accept all of AA, what are you supposed to do? Turn it around on them. Explain to them that there are no other options because AA is hogging all the churches in your town. And they won't give SMART a fighting chance. That may take them by surprise. As far as blocking out the AA language and 'odes to the higher power' ad nauseum. I'd suggest just laughing about it. Do the same thing they did to you. Feel good about yourself that you are not living in that zombie like state anymore. That's what I do or try to do, when I attend AA. Keep up the good fight!!!! Matt > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: " '12-step-freeegroups' " <12-step-freeegroups> >Subject: It happened tonight! well errr Yesterday Night! >Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 00:32:05 -0500 > >Hello Group, > >This being my first foray into 12sf, I thought I'd let y'all know what >happened to me tonight. After having read over one thousand messages to >this group I finally had the courage to speak my mind in a meeting. It >wasn't particularly difficult for me to do; however, the aftermath was a >little difficult to swallow. > >Turning it over to your higher power was the topic and after hearing 20 >some odd people declare their gratitude to theirs for helping to heal them >of their terrible disease I wasn't in the mood for another round of >placating the program. Sure I'm required to be there but this group has >reminded me that I don't have to be a mindless zombie about it. > >As usual I didn't place my name on the list but just as usually happens I >was called on anyway. So I shared. > >I let everyone in the room know, in no uncertain terms, that I did not have >a disease. > >That when I first came into the program 7 months ago I bought that line of >hogwash because it was easier than admitting I (me personally, me myself >and I) was responsible for what I had been doing to myself. It wasn't an >easy realization to come by as the tendency, for me, is to seek shelter in >a friendlier " you're ok it's the disease working " mentality. From the >beginning this didn't seem quite right to me and I steadfastly refused to >work the steps or get a sponsor. > >Now; however, I realize that I had taken my personal desire to be >intoxicated to an irresponsibly dangerous level. The truth is I liked >being drunk and if any opportunity for becoming drunk showed itself I took >it. Since I had gotten myself into this situation it was up to me to get >myself out of it and that is what I'm doing now but I don't need a higher >power to do for me what I can do for myself. > >After sharing these little tidbits one of the sickest people in the rooms > >(you know the kind, one of those fellows who's been in the rooms for >several years and keeps drinking and coming back and drinking and coming >back and letting the whole world know how it's different this time and how >he's got a new therapist and he'll quit now and yadda yadda yadda for 45 or >so minutes) > >felt he had to speak again and angrily let everyone in the room know he >felt I shouldn't be there as I didn't think I was an alcoholic and that I >was making him uncomfortable so I should stop coming. > >I thanked him from the bottom of my heart and let him know I didn't give a >damn what he thought. Right about then an old timer (20 some odd years in) >just as angry as the first seconded the first idiots opinion so I turned to >him and thanked him and let him know I didn't give a damn what he thought >either and that I would say what I wanted whether they liked it or not. > >The moderator attempted to interrupt my response which I refused to let him >do as I felt I had been personally attacked and every bit justified in my >response. > >The odd thing about the whole exchange was that quite a few people were >actually laughing about it. One guy went so far as to say he agreed with >me and he seconded me when I told the second idiot I didn't give a damn >what he thought either. > >For the first time I absolutely refused to tow the party line in what I >shared and I received ........... you guessed it absolutely no cracker as a >matter of fact they raided my cracker barrel. > >Do I feel good about the exchange? Not really, but it was necessary for me >to grow I think. If there was ever any doubt about not cow towing the >party line it evaporated tonight. The really good part is it had to have >evaporated in many newbie minds as well. > >The truth is that no matter how hard some of the old timers tried to lay >the dry drunk tag on me they just couldn't. I'm a naturally up kind of >person when I'm not drinking. It's kind of difficult to hang that type of >tag on the happiest most upbeat person in the room. That's not to say I >don't have my share of problems. I do but after I started reading the >messages in this group I realized a lot of them stemmed from AA. So while >I'm still required to go to AA meetings I content myself with ignoring >everyone but the newbies I've noticed have attracted the attention of some >of the nefarious old timers. > >For awhile I was concerned that I might be indoctrinated against my will by >the power of osmosis. Now I content myself in taking a lot of smoking >breaks, ignoring people, thinking about making snorting noises into a >Styrofoam cup (I'm still chuckling about that one) and steadfastly refusing >to utilize any of the XA jargon. I'm not always successful with the last >but I'm working on it. > >I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to avoid >indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or spoken of >in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind off >the crazy talk. > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > ______________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 1999 Report Share Posted October 20, 1999 hector, bring a copy of " combating mind control cults " by steven hassan to read. make a game of it and see how many cult characteristics you can spot in a meeting. in hsi book you will learn that msot important tool a cult ahs is its use of language. When i woke up to what was going on around me, i stopped going to aa. it was a matter of a gradualy becoming aware of the reinforecements being employed in meetings and a final breaking " event " where i stopped being complacent to what i was being feed and actualy stood up for myself and told my sponsor he was wrong and fired in front of whole room. i have never wanted to have anything to do with aa scince. but i wasnt being compelled to attend and i ahev sympathy for your situation. check out rational recovery web site, they may have info to help you. maybe you can listen to a set of headphones, the court can force you to attend, they cant make you listen. i aslo was a secretary of a meeting, and i never heard of anyone being checked up on for attendance. meaning amyone could have signed the slips at my meeting and it wouldnt have mattered. but your situation may be diffrent. they are some good authors out there, stanton peele, ken ragge, charles buffe, they ahev good counter programing info. Stanton peele " The Diseasing of Amercia " has more wisdom on what addiction REALLY is than you will find in 60 years of aa meetings, helped me out tremendouly. higest recomemndation. the books jerry recomends are also must reads. especially ken ragge. you can probably find him to chat with on alt.recovery.from-12-steps. but be warned , that newsgroup is filled with pro aa trolls who make a hobby of harrasment. if you going to be forced to go to aa, best to arm yourself with best counter information you can find. these authors are the best i know of. aa and cults prosper on ignorance the use of slogans to side step rational inquiries of their methodolgy, dont settle for a parroted slogan as a anwser to a question. http://www.peele.net/ dave hector arroyo wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8725 > Hello Group, > > This being my first foray into 12sf, I thought I'd let y'all know what > happened to me tonight. After having read over one thousand messages to > this group I finally had the courage to speak my mind in a meeting. It > wasn't particularly difficult for me to do; however, the aftermath was a > little difficult to swallow. > > Turning it over to your higher power was the topic and after hearing 20 > some odd people declare their gratitude to theirs for helping to heal them > of their terrible disease I wasn't in the mood for another round of > placating the program. Sure I'm required to be there but this group has > reminded me that I don't have to be a mindless zombie about it. > > As usual I didn't place my name on the list but just as usually happens I > was called on anyway. So I shared. > > I let everyone in the room know, in no uncertain terms, that I did not have > a disease. > > That when I first came into the program 7 months ago I bought that line of > hogwash because it was easier than admitting I (me personally, me myself > and I) was responsible for what I had been doing to myself. It wasn't an > easy realization to come by as the tendency, for me, is to seek shelter in > a friendlier " you're ok it's the disease working " mentality. From the > beginning this didn't seem quite right to me and I steadfastly refused to > work the steps or get a sponsor. > > Now; however, I realize that I had taken my personal desire to be > intoxicated to an irresponsibly dangerous level. The truth is I liked > being drunk and if any opportunity for becoming drunk showed itself I took > it. Since I had gotten myself into this situation it was up to me to get > myself out of it and that is what I'm doing now but I don't need a higher > power to do for me what I can do for myself. > > After sharing these little tidbits one of the sickest people in the rooms > > (you know the kind, one of those fellows who's been in the rooms for > several years and keeps drinking and coming back and drinking and coming > back and letting the whole world know how it's different this time and how > he's got a new therapist and he'll quit now and yadda yadda yadda for 45 or > so minutes) > > felt he had to speak again and angrily let everyone in the room know he > felt I shouldn't be there as I didn't think I was an alcoholic and that I > was making him uncomfortable so I should stop coming. > > I thanked him from the bottom of my heart and let him know I didn't give a > damn what he thought. Right about then an old timer (20 some odd years in) > just as angry as the first seconded the first idiots opinion so I turned to > him and thanked him and let him know I didn't give a damn what he thought > either and that I would say what I wanted whether they liked it or not. > > The moderator attempted to interrupt my response which I refused to let him > do as I felt I had been personally attacked and every bit justified in my > response. > > The odd thing about the whole exchange was that quite a few people were > actually laughing about it. One guy went so far as to say he agreed with > me and he seconded me when I told the second idiot I didn't give a damn > what he thought either. > > For the first time I absolutely refused to tow the party line in what I > shared and I received ........... you guessed it absolutely no cracker as a > matter of fact they raided my cracker barrel. > > Do I feel good about the exchange? Not really, but it was necessary for me > to grow I think. If there was ever any doubt about not cow towing the > party line it evaporated tonight. The really good part is it had to have > evaporated in many newbie minds as well. > > The truth is that no matter how hard some of the old timers tried to lay > the dry drunk tag on me they just couldn't. I'm a naturally up kind of > person when I'm not drinking. It's kind of difficult to hang that type of > tag on the happiest most upbeat person in the room. That's not to say I > don't have my share of problems. I do but after I started reading the > messages in this group I realized a lot of them stemmed from AA. So while > I'm still required to go to AA meetings I content myself with ignoring > everyone but the newbies I've noticed have attracted the attention of some > of the nefarious old timers. > > For awhile I was concerned that I might be indoctrinated against my will by > the power of osmosis. Now I content myself in taking a lot of smoking > breaks, ignoring people, thinking about making snorting noises into a > Styrofoam cup (I'm still chuckling about that one) and steadfastly refusing > to utilize any of the XA jargon. I'm not always successful with the last > but I'm working on it. > > I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to avoid > indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or spoken of > in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind off > the crazy talk. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 1999 Report Share Posted October 20, 1999 In a message dated 10/20/99 12:36:49 AM Central Daylight Time, Nobs@... writes: > After sharing these little tidbits one of the sickest people in the rooms > > (you know the kind, one of those fellows who's been in the rooms for > several years and keeps drinking and coming back and drinking and coming > back and letting the whole world know how it's different this time and how > he's got a new therapist and he'll quit now and yadda yadda yadda for 45 or > so minutes) Yep,sure do. A real " Mr AA " > felt he had to speak again and angrily let everyone in the room know he > felt I shouldn't be there as I didn't think I was an alcoholic and that I > was making him uncomfortable so I should stop coming. Did you inform him that " you have a desire to stop drinking " ,the only requirement for membership? > > I thanked him from the bottom of my heart and let him know I didn't give a > damn what he thought. Right about then an old timer (20 some odd years in) > just as angry as the first seconded the first idiots opinion so I turned to > him and thanked him and let him know I didn't give a damn what he thought > either and that I would say what I wanted whether they liked it or not. Good for you! > The moderator attempted to interrupt my response which I refused to let him > do as I felt I had been personally attacked and every bit justified in my > response. > > The odd thing about the whole exchange was that quite a few people were > actually laughing about it. One guy went so far as to say he agreed with > me and he seconded me when I told the second idiot I didn't give a damn > what he thought either. > > For the first time I absolutely refused to tow the party line in what I > shared and I received ........... you guessed it absolutely no cracker as a > matter of fact they raided my cracker barrel. > > Do I feel good about the exchange? Not really, but it was necessary for me > to grow I think. If there was ever any doubt about not cow towing the > party line it evaporated tonight. The really good part is it had to have > evaporated in many newbie minds as well. You should feel good about the fact that you are empowering yourself . > > The truth is that no matter how hard some of the old timers tried to lay > the dry drunk tag on me they just couldn't. I'm a naturally up kind of > person when I'm not drinking. It's kind of difficult to hang that type of > tag on the happiest most upbeat person in the room. That's not to say I > don't have my share of problems. I do but after I started reading the > messages in this group I realized a lot of them stemmed from AA. So while > I'm still required to go to AA meetings I content myself with ignoring > everyone but the newbies I've noticed have attracted the attention of some > of the nefarious old timers. > > For awhile I was concerned that I might be indoctrinated against my will by > the power of osmosis. Now I content myself in taking a lot of smoking > breaks, ignoring people, thinking about making snorting noises into a > Styrofoam cup (I'm still chuckling about that one) and steadfastly refusing > to utilize any of the XA jargon. I'm not always successful with the last > but I'm working on it. > > I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to avoid > indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or spoken of > in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind off > the crazy talk. I would suggest that you bring a walkman to your meetings and use it when you start to hear sick comments that irritate you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 1999 Report Share Posted October 20, 1999 ! This is great! Makes me wish I'd been sitting in the back row with my strofoam-cup pig snout... Thanks for the first big laugh of my day! Cheers, . > Hello Group, > > This being my first foray into 12sf, I thought I'd let y'all know what > happened to me tonight. After having read over one thousand messages to > this group I finally had the courage to speak my mind in a meeting. It > wasn't particularly difficult for me to do; however, the aftermath was a > little difficult to swallow. > > Turning it over to your higher power was the topic and after hearing 20 > some odd people declare their gratitude to theirs for helping to heal them > of their terrible disease I wasn't in the mood for another round of > placating the program. Sure I'm required to be there but this group has > reminded me that I don't have to be a mindless zombie about it. > > As usual I didn't place my name on the list but just as usually happens I > was called on anyway. So I shared. > > I let everyone in the room know, in no uncertain terms, that I did not have > a disease. > > That when I first came into the program 7 months ago I bought that line of > hogwash because it was easier than admitting I (me personally, me myself > and I) was responsible for what I had been doing to myself. It wasn't an > easy realization to come by as the tendency, for me, is to seek shelter in > a friendlier " you're ok it's the disease working " mentality. From the > beginning this didn't seem quite right to me and I steadfastly refused to > work the steps or get a sponsor. > > Now; however, I realize that I had taken my personal desire to be > intoxicated to an irresponsibly dangerous level. The truth is I liked > being drunk and if any opportunity for becoming drunk showed itself I took > it. Since I had gotten myself into this situation it was up to me to get > myself out of it and that is what I'm doing now but I don't need a higher > power to do for me what I can do for myself. > > After sharing these little tidbits one of the sickest people in the rooms > > (you know the kind, one of those fellows who's been in the rooms for > several years and keeps drinking and coming back and drinking and coming > back and letting the whole world know how it's different this time and how > he's got a new therapist and he'll quit now and yadda yadda yadda for 45 or > so minutes) > > felt he had to speak again and angrily let everyone in the room know he > felt I shouldn't be there as I didn't think I was an alcoholic and that I > was making him uncomfortable so I should stop coming. > > I thanked him from the bottom of my heart and let him know I didn't give a > damn what he thought. Right about then an old timer (20 some odd years in) > just as angry as the first seconded the first idiots opinion so I turned to > him and thanked him and let him know I didn't give a damn what he thought > either and that I would say what I wanted whether they liked it or not. > > The moderator attempted to interrupt my response which I refused to let him > do as I felt I had been personally attacked and every bit justified in my > response. > > The odd thing about the whole exchange was that quite a few people were > actually laughing about it. One guy went so far as to say he agreed with > me and he seconded me when I told the second idiot I didn't give a damn > what he thought either. > > For the first time I absolutely refused to tow the party line in what I > shared and I received ........... you guessed it absolutely no cracker as a > matter of fact they raided my cracker barrel. > > Do I feel good about the exchange? Not really, but it was necessary for me > to grow I think. If there was ever any doubt about not cow towing the > party line it evaporated tonight. The really good part is it had to have > evaporated in many newbie minds as well. > > The truth is that no matter how hard some of the old timers tried to lay > the dry drunk tag on me they just couldn't. I'm a naturally up kind of > person when I'm not drinking. It's kind of difficult to hang that type of > tag on the happiest most upbeat person in the room. That's not to say I > don't have my share of problems. I do but after I started reading the > messages in this group I realized a lot of them stemmed from AA. So while > I'm still required to go to AA meetings I content myself with ignoring > everyone but the newbies I've noticed have attracted the attention of some > of the nefarious old timers. > > For awhile I was concerned that I might be indoctrinated against my will by > the power of osmosis. Now I content myself in taking a lot of smoking > breaks, ignoring people, thinking about making snorting noises into a > Styrofoam cup (I'm still chuckling about that one) and steadfastly refusing > to utilize any of the XA jargon. I'm not always successful with the last > but I'm working on it. > > I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to avoid > indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or spoken of > in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind off > the crazy talk. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 1999 Report Share Posted October 20, 1999 > > For awhile I was concerned that I might be indoctrinated against my will by > the power of osmosis. Now I content myself in taking a lot of smoking > breaks, ignoring people, thinking about making snorting noises into a > Styrofoam cup (I'm still chuckling about that one) and steadfastly refusing > to utilize any of the XA jargon. I'm not always successful with the last > but I'm working on it. > > I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to avoid > indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or spoken of > in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind off > the crazy talk. You may want to visualize where you are going to stuff their crackers when they finnish sharing. On a more practical note you might want to take a good book to the meetings, if you cannot challenge the court discussion that requires you to attend religious meetings. (I know I am assuming a court order, but could see no other reason why you would still be going to meetings considering your post.). If you find yourself confronted by *A nazis at the break, do not always argue with them. I found it very amusing to agree with my attacker completely, thank them for their enlightenment, ask them to be my sponsor, give them a false number and promise to call them the next day. One person came back for this treatment four times. Whatever you do, try to have some fun while your at it. (Of course you may not have the same sick sense of humor as I). Remember, you leave the meetings with a plan for a better life out in the real world, all they leave with is the fear they have carefully nurtured on the deflated egos of desperate " newcomers " . Best regards, -- " So, you say He knew his only son was going to be nailed to a cross? " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 1999 Report Share Posted October 20, 1999 At 07:30 AM 10/20/99 -0700, dmarcoot@... wrote: >hector, >bring a copy of " combating mind control cults " by steven hassan to >read. make a game of it and see how many cult characteristics you can >spot in a meeting. in hsi book you will learn that msot important tool >a cult ahs is its use of language. When I read that about language in Hassan's book I was amazed, and it made sense out of the craziness I saw at meetings. For example, " You can only get sober through AA. " This is actually true - if you quit drinking without the help of AA you're on a dry drunk and not truly sober. AA has redefined sober as meaning " not drinking because of participation in AA " , so by definition you can only get sober in AA. If you don't remember Orwell's " 1984 " , read it - there are several parts concerning language and 'thought crime', including redefinition of words. One passage talks about meanings of the word freedom, and how its meaning might be narrowed to mean 'lack of' something as in " the dog is free of fleas " before the word is eventually completely removed from the language. " He loved Bill W. " ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 1999 Report Share Posted October 20, 1999 At 12:32 AM 10/20/99 -0500, Arroyo wrote: >Hello Group, > >This being my first foray into 12sf, I thought I'd let y'all know what >happened to me tonight. After having read over one thousand messages to >this group I finally had the courage to speak my mind in a meeting. It >wasn't particularly difficult for me to do; however, the aftermath was a >little difficult to swallow. Saying what you believe, when it's different from the group's beliefs, is taken as an attack on their beliefs, so they attack back. I can imagine being in a fundamentalist church and saying that not only do you not believe in God,... >I let everyone in the room know, in no uncertain terms, that I did not have >a disease. ...but that you dnn't believe in the Devil either. :-) > >That when I first came into the program 7 months ago I bought that line of >hogwash because it was easier than admitting I (me personally, me myself >and I) was responsible for what I had been doing to myself. It wasn't an >easy realization to come by as the tendency, for me, is to seek shelter in >a friendlier " you're ok it's the disease working " mentality. From the >beginning this didn't seem quite right to me and I steadfastly refused to >work the steps or get a sponsor. > >Now; however, I realize that I had taken my personal desire to be >intoxicated to an irresponsibly dangerous level. The truth is I liked >being drunk and if any opportunity for becoming drunk showed itself I took >it. Since I had gotten myself into this situation it was up to me to get >myself out of it and that is what I'm doing now but I don't need a higher >power to do for me what I can do for myself. > >After sharing these little tidbits one of the sickest people in the rooms > >(you know the kind, one of those fellows who's been in the rooms for >several years and keeps drinking and coming back and drinking and coming >back and letting the whole world know how it's different this time and how >he's got a new therapist and he'll quit now and yadda yadda yadda for 45 or >so minutes) > >felt he had to speak again and angrily let everyone in the room know he >felt I shouldn't be there as I didn't think I was an alcoholic And furthermore, if I read you right, you don't think anyone is an alcoholic, there are just people who choose to drink heavily. There's reasonable support for that position. > and that I >was making him uncomfortable so I should stop coming. By that same reasoning, I'm sure he and several others 'made you uncomfortable', so they should stop going to the meeting also. >I thanked him from the bottom of my heart and let him know I didn't give a >damn what he thought. Right about then an old timer (20 some odd years in) >just as angry as the first seconded the first idiots opinion so I turned to >him and thanked him and let him know I didn't give a damn what he thought >either and that I would say what I wanted whether they liked it or not. > >The moderator attempted to interrupt my response which I refused to let him >do as I felt I had been personally attacked and every bit justified in my >response. > >The odd thing about the whole exchange was that quite a few people were >actually laughing about it. One guy went so far as to say he agreed with >me and he seconded me when I told the second idiot I didn't give a damn >what he thought either. > >For the first time I absolutely refused to tow the party line in what I >shared and I received ........... you guessed it absolutely no cracker as a >matter of fact they raided my cracker barrel. > >Do I feel good about the exchange? Not really, but it was necessary for me >to grow I think. >If there was ever any doubt about not cow towing the >party line it evaporated tonight. The really good part is it had to have >evaporated in many newbie minds as well. > >The truth is that no matter how hard some of the old timers tried to lay >the dry drunk tag on me they just couldn't. I'm a naturally up kind of >person when I'm not drinking. It's kind of difficult to hang that type of >tag on the happiest most upbeat person in the room. That's not to say I >don't have my share of problems. I do but after I started reading the >messages in this group I realized a lot of them stemmed from AA. So while >I'm still required to go to AA meetings I content myself with ignoring >everyone but the newbies I've noticed have attracted the attention of some >of the nefarious old timers. > >For awhile I was concerned that I might be indoctrinated against my will by >the power of osmosis. Now I content myself in taking a lot of smoking >breaks, ignoring people, thinking about making snorting noises into a >Styrofoam cup (I'm still chuckling about that one) and steadfastly refusing >to utilize any of the XA jargon. I'm not always successful with the last >but I'm working on it. After years in meetings and unprogramming myself, the only times I used jargon was sarcastically - some people seemed to be disgusted at what I was doing (though they would never actually tell their feelings), and I think others didn't have a clue. >>I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to avoid >indoctrination Knowing that it's indoctrination and something you intentionally don't want to do is already a lot of the battle against indoctrination. If I had had more than a slight feeling that many ideas that go against 12-step would not only not get me drunk but be much more helpful for personal growth, I would have avoided my first two years of buying into the dogma and several more years of digging out of it. >or acceptance of any of the material presented or spoken of >in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind off >the crazy talk. You already know many of the tools from reading here. Be critical of anything you hear in AA (or anywhere else, for that matter). ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 1999 Report Share Posted October 21, 1999 Exellent point Ben: AA has everything to do with reductionism. It reduces what members think about to the battle against the imaginary disease of alcoholism according to AA theology. It asks members to have an open mind, but that mind should be open to AA only, and should gradually close off to everything else. 1984 is an excellent example of what we're talking about. Information and vocabulary are whittled down to absurdly narrow proportions. Certain things simply cannot exist if defined within AAs totalist belief system. For example, there can be no such thing as rape, because any pains one experiences are the result of someone having put herself in the positiont to be hurt, additionally, blaming someone else for our pains simply cannot happen within this totalist application. I go into this further in the story I'm submitting for the Fransway book. It's sick, and it's frightening, and I think this is one of the reasons malevolent individuals are drawn to guru status in the rooms. They draw naive people to themselves, then they exploit them, and they get away with it, because AA theology defines reality. To challenge what happened, one has to challenge the AA doctrine. And you know how easy THAT can be from within.... Sick, sick, sick. apple > When I read that about language in Hassan's book I was amazed, and it > made sense out of the craziness I saw at meetings. > For example, " You can only get sober through AA. " This is actually true - > if you quit drinking without the help of AA you're on a dry drunk and not > truly sober. AA has redefined sober as meaning " not drinking because of > participation in AA " , so by definition you can only get sober in AA. > > If you don't remember Orwell's " 1984 " , read it - there are several parts > concerning language and 'thought crime', including redefinition of words. > One passage talks about meanings of the word freedom, and how its meaning > might be narrowed to mean 'lack of' something as in " the dog is free of > fleas " before the word is eventually completely removed from the language. > > > " He loved Bill W. " > ----- > http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 1999 Report Share Posted October 21, 1999 Exellent point Ben: AA has everything to do with reductionism. It reduces what members think about to the battle against the imaginary disease of alcoholism according to AA theology. It asks members to have an open mind, but that mind should be open to AA only, and should gradually close off to everything else. 1984 is an excellent example of what we're talking about. Information and vocabulary are whittled down to absurdly narrow proportions. Certain things simply cannot exist if defined within AAs totalist belief system. For example, there can be no such thing as rape, because any pains one experiences are the result of someone having put herself in the positiont to be hurt, additionally, blaming someone else for our pains simply cannot happen within this totalist application. I go into this further in the story I'm submitting for the Fransway book. It's sick, and it's frightening, and I think this is one of the reasons malevolent individuals are drawn to guru status in the rooms. They draw naive people to themselves, then they exploit them, and they get away with it, because AA theology defines reality. To challenge what happened, one has to challenge the AA doctrine. And you know how easy THAT can be from within.... Sick, sick, sick. apple > When I read that about language in Hassan's book I was amazed, and it > made sense out of the craziness I saw at meetings. > For example, " You can only get sober through AA. " This is actually true - > if you quit drinking without the help of AA you're on a dry drunk and not > truly sober. AA has redefined sober as meaning " not drinking because of > participation in AA " , so by definition you can only get sober in AA. > > If you don't remember Orwell's " 1984 " , read it - there are several parts > concerning language and 'thought crime', including redefinition of words. > One passage talks about meanings of the word freedom, and how its meaning > might be narrowed to mean 'lack of' something as in " the dog is free of > fleas " before the word is eventually completely removed from the language. > > > " He loved Bill W. " > ----- > http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 1999 Report Share Posted October 21, 1999 Hi, , and welcome. Congratulations on (1) taking total personal responsibility for your substance use, and (2) having the guts to state it loudly in the middle of a meeting of one of the most responsibility-shirking ideological groups in the world. Are you being " required to attend " by a court or state agency? You should know that in several different states (among them NY, Tennessee, California, and Wisconsin, but there are others) it has already been ruled unconstitutional for state agencies to require attendance at any 12-step meetings. If you are a resident of one of these states, you will automatically win if you challenge your coercion in court. If you live in a state that has not yet had a precedent-setting case, you could probably set the precedent if you got a good civil-rights attorney. Remember, it is neither your imagination nor a personal opinion of lunatic-fringe radicals that AA/NA is a religious cult -- it is the opinion of learned judges who have read both the First Amendment and XA literature. To put it bluntly, a state agency cannot order an American citizen to attend a meeting where the dominant instruction is that " a higher power, whom we choose to call God [but claim can be a lightbulb or any other idol], will stop us from drinking/drugging and also remove all character defects [cause we can't possibly do anything ourselves], but only if we purify ourselves by public confession of sins and lots of mindless slogan chanting and prayer to this supernatural power. " Good luck, and let me know if you're interested in reading some of the court decisions to which I'm referring. ~Rita -------------------------------- hector arroyo wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8725 > Hello Group, > > This being my first foray into 12sf, I thought I'd let y'all know what > happened to me tonight. After having read over one thousand messages to > this group I finally had the courage to speak my mind in a meeting. It > wasn't particularly difficult for me to do; however, the aftermath was a > little difficult to swallow. > > Turning it over to your higher power was the topic and after hearing 20 > some odd people declare their gratitude to theirs for helping to heal them > of their terrible disease I wasn't in the mood for another round of > placating the program. Sure I'm required to be there but this group has > reminded me that I don't have to be a mindless zombie about it. > > As usual I didn't place my name on the list but just as usually happens I > was called on anyway. So I shared. > > I let everyone in the room know, in no uncertain terms, that I did not have > a disease. > > That when I first came into the program 7 months ago I bought that line of > hogwash because it was easier than admitting I (me personally, me myself > and I) was responsible for what I had been doing to myself. It wasn't an > easy realization to come by as the tendency, for me, is to seek shelter in > a friendlier " you're ok it's the disease working " mentality. From the > beginning this didn't seem quite right to me and I steadfastly refused to > work the steps or get a sponsor. > > Now; however, I realize that I had taken my personal desire to be > intoxicated to an irresponsibly dangerous level. The truth is I liked > being drunk and if any opportunity for becoming drunk showed itself I took > it. Since I had gotten myself into this situation it was up to me to get > myself out of it and that is what I'm doing now but I don't need a higher > power to do for me what I can do for myself. > > After sharing these little tidbits one of the sickest people in the rooms > > (you know the kind, one of those fellows who's been in the rooms for > several years and keeps drinking and coming back and drinking and coming > back and letting the whole world know how it's different this time and how > he's got a new therapist and he'll quit now and yadda yadda yadda for 45 or > so minutes) > > felt he had to speak again and angrily let everyone in the room know he > felt I shouldn't be there as I didn't think I was an alcoholic and that I > was making him uncomfortable so I should stop coming. > > I thanked him from the bottom of my heart and let him know I didn't give a > damn what he thought. Right about then an old timer (20 some odd years in) > just as angry as the first seconded the first idiots opinion so I turned to > him and thanked him and let him know I didn't give a damn what he thought > either and that I would say what I wanted whether they liked it or not. > > The moderator attempted to interrupt my response which I refused to let him > do as I felt I had been personally attacked and every bit justified in my > response. > > The odd thing about the whole exchange was that quite a few people were > actually laughing about it. One guy went so far as to say he agreed with > me and he seconded me when I told the second idiot I didn't give a damn > what he thought either. > > For the first time I absolutely refused to tow the party line in what I > shared and I received ........... you guessed it absolutely no cracker as a > matter of fact they raided my cracker barrel. > > Do I feel good about the exchange? Not really, but it was necessary for me > to grow I think. If there was ever any doubt about not cow towing the > party line it evaporated tonight. The really good part is it had to have > evaporated in many newbie minds as well. > > The truth is that no matter how hard some of the old timers tried to lay > the dry drunk tag on me they just couldn't. I'm a naturally up kind of > person when I'm not drinking. It's kind of difficult to hang that type of > tag on the happiest most upbeat person in the room. That's not to say I > don't have my share of problems. I do but after I started reading the > messages in this group I realized a lot of them stemmed from AA. So while > I'm still required to go to AA meetings I content myself with ignoring > everyone but the newbies I've noticed have attracted the attention of some > of the nefarious old timers. > > For awhile I was concerned that I might be indoctrinated against my will by > the power of osmosis. Now I content myself in taking a lot of smoking > breaks, ignoring people, thinking about making snorting noises into a > Styrofoam cup (I'm still chuckling about that one) and steadfastly refusing > to utilize any of the XA jargon. I'm not always successful with the last > but I'm working on it. > > I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to avoid > indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or spoken of > in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind off > the crazy talk. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 1999 Report Share Posted October 21, 1999 Hi, , and welcome. Congratulations on (1) taking total personal responsibility for your substance use, and (2) having the guts to state it loudly in the middle of a meeting of one of the most responsibility-shirking ideological groups in the world. Are you being " required to attend " by a court or state agency? You should know that in several different states (among them NY, Tennessee, California, and Wisconsin, but there are others) it has already been ruled unconstitutional for state agencies to require attendance at any 12-step meetings. If you are a resident of one of these states, you will automatically win if you challenge your coercion in court. If you live in a state that has not yet had a precedent-setting case, you could probably set the precedent if you got a good civil-rights attorney. Remember, it is neither your imagination nor a personal opinion of lunatic-fringe radicals that AA/NA is a religious cult -- it is the opinion of learned judges who have read both the First Amendment and XA literature. To put it bluntly, a state agency cannot order an American citizen to attend a meeting where the dominant instruction is that " a higher power, whom we choose to call God [but claim can be a lightbulb or any other idol], will stop us from drinking/drugging and also remove all character defects [cause we can't possibly do anything ourselves], but only if we purify ourselves by public confession of sins and lots of mindless slogan chanting and prayer to this supernatural power. " Good luck, and let me know if you're interested in reading some of the court decisions to which I'm referring. ~Rita -------------------------------- hector arroyo wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8725 > Hello Group, > > This being my first foray into 12sf, I thought I'd let y'all know what > happened to me tonight. After having read over one thousand messages to > this group I finally had the courage to speak my mind in a meeting. It > wasn't particularly difficult for me to do; however, the aftermath was a > little difficult to swallow. > > Turning it over to your higher power was the topic and after hearing 20 > some odd people declare their gratitude to theirs for helping to heal them > of their terrible disease I wasn't in the mood for another round of > placating the program. Sure I'm required to be there but this group has > reminded me that I don't have to be a mindless zombie about it. > > As usual I didn't place my name on the list but just as usually happens I > was called on anyway. So I shared. > > I let everyone in the room know, in no uncertain terms, that I did not have > a disease. > > That when I first came into the program 7 months ago I bought that line of > hogwash because it was easier than admitting I (me personally, me myself > and I) was responsible for what I had been doing to myself. It wasn't an > easy realization to come by as the tendency, for me, is to seek shelter in > a friendlier " you're ok it's the disease working " mentality. From the > beginning this didn't seem quite right to me and I steadfastly refused to > work the steps or get a sponsor. > > Now; however, I realize that I had taken my personal desire to be > intoxicated to an irresponsibly dangerous level. The truth is I liked > being drunk and if any opportunity for becoming drunk showed itself I took > it. Since I had gotten myself into this situation it was up to me to get > myself out of it and that is what I'm doing now but I don't need a higher > power to do for me what I can do for myself. > > After sharing these little tidbits one of the sickest people in the rooms > > (you know the kind, one of those fellows who's been in the rooms for > several years and keeps drinking and coming back and drinking and coming > back and letting the whole world know how it's different this time and how > he's got a new therapist and he'll quit now and yadda yadda yadda for 45 or > so minutes) > > felt he had to speak again and angrily let everyone in the room know he > felt I shouldn't be there as I didn't think I was an alcoholic and that I > was making him uncomfortable so I should stop coming. > > I thanked him from the bottom of my heart and let him know I didn't give a > damn what he thought. Right about then an old timer (20 some odd years in) > just as angry as the first seconded the first idiots opinion so I turned to > him and thanked him and let him know I didn't give a damn what he thought > either and that I would say what I wanted whether they liked it or not. > > The moderator attempted to interrupt my response which I refused to let him > do as I felt I had been personally attacked and every bit justified in my > response. > > The odd thing about the whole exchange was that quite a few people were > actually laughing about it. One guy went so far as to say he agreed with > me and he seconded me when I told the second idiot I didn't give a damn > what he thought either. > > For the first time I absolutely refused to tow the party line in what I > shared and I received ........... you guessed it absolutely no cracker as a > matter of fact they raided my cracker barrel. > > Do I feel good about the exchange? Not really, but it was necessary for me > to grow I think. If there was ever any doubt about not cow towing the > party line it evaporated tonight. The really good part is it had to have > evaporated in many newbie minds as well. > > The truth is that no matter how hard some of the old timers tried to lay > the dry drunk tag on me they just couldn't. I'm a naturally up kind of > person when I'm not drinking. It's kind of difficult to hang that type of > tag on the happiest most upbeat person in the room. That's not to say I > don't have my share of problems. I do but after I started reading the > messages in this group I realized a lot of them stemmed from AA. So while > I'm still required to go to AA meetings I content myself with ignoring > everyone but the newbies I've noticed have attracted the attention of some > of the nefarious old timers. > > For awhile I was concerned that I might be indoctrinated against my will by > the power of osmosis. Now I content myself in taking a lot of smoking > breaks, ignoring people, thinking about making snorting noises into a > Styrofoam cup (I'm still chuckling about that one) and steadfastly refusing > to utilize any of the XA jargon. I'm not always successful with the last > but I'm working on it. > > I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to avoid > indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or spoken of > in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind off > the crazy talk. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 1999 Report Share Posted October 21, 1999 Re: It happened tonight! well errr Yesterday Night! " Memory mode on " .. The next time someone tells you should leave or says, " if you don't like it, there's the door " ask them a question: 'Where am I supposed to go?' Tell them you don't want to drink and need help, but since you can't accept all of AA, what are you supposed to do? Turn it around on them. Explain to them that there are no other options because AA is hogging all the churches in your town. And they won't give SMART a fighting chance. " Digested for future reference " I only wish I had a time machine. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 1999 Report Share Posted October 21, 1999 Re: It happened tonight! well errr Yesterday Night! " Memory mode on " .. The next time someone tells you should leave or says, " if you don't like it, there's the door " ask them a question: 'Where am I supposed to go?' Tell them you don't want to drink and need help, but since you can't accept all of AA, what are you supposed to do? Turn it around on them. Explain to them that there are no other options because AA is hogging all the churches in your town. And they won't give SMART a fighting chance. " Digested for future reference " I only wish I had a time machine. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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