Re: It happened tonight! well errr Yesterday Night!

October 20, 1999

Good job! I never had the guts to speak out like that while at an aa meeting.

I always brought a book with me to read during meetings to counteract any

negative aa influence. Something like The Real AA: Behind The Myth of 12 Step

Recovery by Ken Ragge or Stanton Peele's The Truth About Addiction And

Recovery - excellent aadeprogramming material. I would not even listen to

what was being said or to who was talking. If and when I did I would always

challenge, dispute, and replace the aa logic with more rational thinking. It

helps to have Albert Ellis in your back pocket.

jerry

October 20, 1999

Good job! I never had the guts to speak out like that while at an aa meeting.

I always brought a book with me to read during meetings to counteract any

negative aa influence. Something like The Real AA: Behind The Myth of 12 Step

Recovery by Ken Ragge or Stanton Peele's The Truth About Addiction And

Recovery - excellent aadeprogramming material. I would not even listen to

what was being said or to who was talking. If and when I did I would always

challenge, dispute, and replace the aa logic with more rational thinking. It

helps to have Albert Ellis in your back pocket.

jerry

October 20, 1999

Hi :

Boy, would I like to have been there at that meeting. The tough part

has always been that I was labeled a black sheep... a rebellious sort.

Things may never be the same again for you after what you've done.

(telling the truth!) When I went to meetings for a few years, I had an

awareness that what was going on was simple craziness. I just

pretended I was watching a TV station that was turned to a channel that

is not there. White noise. Keep us up to date.

Apple

>

> I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to

avoid

> indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or

spoken of

> in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind

off

> the crazy talk.

>

October 20, 1999

Hi :

Boy, would I like to have been there at that meeting. The tough part

has always been that I was labeled a black sheep... a rebellious sort.

Things may never be the same again for you after what you've done.

(telling the truth!) When I went to meetings for a few years, I had an

awareness that what was going on was simple craziness. I just

pretended I was watching a TV station that was turned to a channel that

is not there. White noise. Keep us up to date.

Apple

>

> I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to

avoid

> indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or

spoken of

> in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind

off

> the crazy talk.

>

October 20, 1999

Hi :

Boy, would I like to have been there at that meeting. The tough part

has always been that I was labeled a black sheep... a rebellious sort.

Things may never be the same again for you after what you've done.

(telling the truth!) When I went to meetings for a few years, I had an

awareness that what was going on was simple craziness. I just

pretended I was watching a TV station that was turned to a channel that

is not there. White noise. Keep us up to date.

Apple

>

> I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to

avoid

> indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or

spoken of

> in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind

off

> the crazy talk.

>

October 20, 1999

hecotr,

that was jsut about the greatest thing i have ever heard of being said

in a meeting! i aplaud you standing up for yourself and your beliefs.

No one in any meeting can take your right to express yourself away from

you. Bravo! if the " only requirement of membership " was really a

desire to stop drinking, then nothing you said should be offensive, or

so you would think. are you being compelled to ateend these meetings by

the courts? if not, why are you going?

dave

hector arroyo wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8725

> Hello Group,

>

> This being my first foray into 12sf, I thought I'd let y'all know

what

> happened to me tonight. After having read over one thousand

messages to

> this group I finally had the courage to speak my mind in a meeting.

It

> wasn't particularly difficult for me to do; however, the aftermath

was a

> little difficult to swallow.

>

> Turning it over to your higher power was the topic and after hearing

20

> some odd people declare their gratitude to theirs for helping to heal

them

> of their terrible disease I wasn't in the mood for another round of

> placating the program. Sure I'm required to be there but this group

has

> reminded me that I don't have to be a mindless zombie about it.

>

> As usual I didn't place my name on the list but just as usually

happens I

> was called on anyway. So I shared.

>

> I let everyone in the room know, in no uncertain terms, that I did

not have

> a disease.

>

> That when I first came into the program 7 months ago I bought that

line of

> hogwash because it was easier than admitting I (me personally, me

myself

> and I) was responsible for what I had been doing to myself. It

wasn't an

> easy realization to come by as the tendency, for me, is to seek

shelter in

> a friendlier " you're ok it's the disease working " mentality. From

the

> beginning this didn't seem quite right to me and I steadfastly

refused to

> work the steps or get a sponsor.

>

> Now; however, I realize that I had taken my personal desire to be

> intoxicated to an irresponsibly dangerous level. The truth is I

liked

> being drunk and if any opportunity for becoming drunk showed itself I

took

> it. Since I had gotten myself into this situation it was up to me

to get

> myself out of it and that is what I'm doing now but I don't need a

higher

> power to do for me what I can do for myself.

>

> After sharing these little tidbits one of the sickest people in the

rooms

>

> (you know the kind, one of those fellows who's been in the rooms for

> several years and keeps drinking and coming back and drinking and

coming

> back and letting the whole world know how it's different this time

and how

> he's got a new therapist and he'll quit now and yadda yadda yadda for

45 or

> so minutes)

>

> felt he had to speak again and angrily let everyone in the room know

he

> felt I shouldn't be there as I didn't think I was an alcoholic and

that I

> was making him uncomfortable so I should stop coming.

>

> I thanked him from the bottom of my heart and let him know I didn't

give a

> damn what he thought. Right about then an old timer (20 some odd

years in)

> just as angry as the first seconded the first idiots opinion so I

turned to

> him and thanked him and let him know I didn't give a damn what he

thought

> either and that I would say what I wanted whether they liked it or

not.

>

> The moderator attempted to interrupt my response which I refused to

let him

> do as I felt I had been personally attacked and every bit justified

in my

> response.

>

> The odd thing about the whole exchange was that quite a few people

were

> actually laughing about it. One guy went so far as to say he agreed

with

> me and he seconded me when I told the second idiot I didn't give a

damn

> what he thought either.

>

> For the first time I absolutely refused to tow the party line in what

I

> shared and I received ........... you guessed it absolutely no

cracker as a

> matter of fact they raided my cracker barrel.

>

> Do I feel good about the exchange? Not really, but it was necessary

for me

> to grow I think. If there was ever any doubt about not cow towing

the

> party line it evaporated tonight. The really good part is it had to

have

> evaporated in many newbie minds as well.

>

> The truth is that no matter how hard some of the old timers tried to

lay

> the dry drunk tag on me they just couldn't. I'm a naturally up kind

of

> person when I'm not drinking. It's kind of difficult to hang that

type of

> tag on the happiest most upbeat person in the room. That's not to

say I

> don't have my share of problems. I do but after I started reading

the

> messages in this group I realized a lot of them stemmed from AA. So

while

> I'm still required to go to AA meetings I content myself with

ignoring

> everyone but the newbies I've noticed have attracted the attention of

some

> of the nefarious old timers.

>

> For awhile I was concerned that I might be indoctrinated against my

will by

> the power of osmosis. Now I content myself in taking a lot of

smoking

> breaks, ignoring people, thinking about making snorting noises into a

> Styrofoam cup (I'm still chuckling about that one) and steadfastly

refusing

> to utilize any of the XA jargon. I'm not always successful with the

last

> but I'm working on it.

>

> I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to

avoid

> indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or

spoken of

> in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind

off

> the crazy talk.

>

October 20, 1999

hecotr,

that was jsut about the greatest thing i have ever heard of being said

in a meeting! i aplaud you standing up for yourself and your beliefs.

No one in any meeting can take your right to express yourself away from

you. Bravo! if the " only requirement of membership " was really a

desire to stop drinking, then nothing you said should be offensive, or

so you would think. are you being compelled to ateend these meetings by

the courts? if not, why are you going?

dave

hector arroyo wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8725

> Hello Group,

>

> This being my first foray into 12sf, I thought I'd let y'all know

what

> happened to me tonight. After having read over one thousand

messages to

> this group I finally had the courage to speak my mind in a meeting.

It

> wasn't particularly difficult for me to do; however, the aftermath

was a

> little difficult to swallow.

>

> Turning it over to your higher power was the topic and after hearing

20

> some odd people declare their gratitude to theirs for helping to heal

them

> of their terrible disease I wasn't in the mood for another round of

> placating the program. Sure I'm required to be there but this group

has

> reminded me that I don't have to be a mindless zombie about it.

>

> As usual I didn't place my name on the list but just as usually

happens I

> was called on anyway. So I shared.

>

> I let everyone in the room know, in no uncertain terms, that I did

not have

> a disease.

>

> That when I first came into the program 7 months ago I bought that

line of

> hogwash because it was easier than admitting I (me personally, me

myself

> and I) was responsible for what I had been doing to myself. It

wasn't an

> easy realization to come by as the tendency, for me, is to seek

shelter in

> a friendlier " you're ok it's the disease working " mentality. From

the

> beginning this didn't seem quite right to me and I steadfastly

refused to

> work the steps or get a sponsor.

>

> Now; however, I realize that I had taken my personal desire to be

> intoxicated to an irresponsibly dangerous level. The truth is I

liked

> being drunk and if any opportunity for becoming drunk showed itself I

took

> it. Since I had gotten myself into this situation it was up to me

to get

> myself out of it and that is what I'm doing now but I don't need a

higher

> power to do for me what I can do for myself.

>

> After sharing these little tidbits one of the sickest people in the

rooms

>

> (you know the kind, one of those fellows who's been in the rooms for

> several years and keeps drinking and coming back and drinking and

coming

> back and letting the whole world know how it's different this time

and how

> he's got a new therapist and he'll quit now and yadda yadda yadda for

45 or

> so minutes)

>

> felt he had to speak again and angrily let everyone in the room know

he

> felt I shouldn't be there as I didn't think I was an alcoholic and

that I

> was making him uncomfortable so I should stop coming.

>

> I thanked him from the bottom of my heart and let him know I didn't

give a

> damn what he thought. Right about then an old timer (20 some odd

years in)

> just as angry as the first seconded the first idiots opinion so I

turned to

> him and thanked him and let him know I didn't give a damn what he

thought

> either and that I would say what I wanted whether they liked it or

not.

>

> The moderator attempted to interrupt my response which I refused to

let him

> do as I felt I had been personally attacked and every bit justified

in my

> response.

>

> The odd thing about the whole exchange was that quite a few people

were

> actually laughing about it. One guy went so far as to say he agreed

with

> me and he seconded me when I told the second idiot I didn't give a

damn

> what he thought either.

>

> For the first time I absolutely refused to tow the party line in what

I

> shared and I received ........... you guessed it absolutely no

cracker as a

> matter of fact they raided my cracker barrel.

>

> Do I feel good about the exchange? Not really, but it was necessary

for me

> to grow I think. If there was ever any doubt about not cow towing

the

> party line it evaporated tonight. The really good part is it had to

have

> evaporated in many newbie minds as well.

>

> The truth is that no matter how hard some of the old timers tried to

lay

> the dry drunk tag on me they just couldn't. I'm a naturally up kind

of

> person when I'm not drinking. It's kind of difficult to hang that

type of

> tag on the happiest most upbeat person in the room. That's not to

say I

> don't have my share of problems. I do but after I started reading

the

> messages in this group I realized a lot of them stemmed from AA. So

while

> I'm still required to go to AA meetings I content myself with

ignoring

> everyone but the newbies I've noticed have attracted the attention of

some

> of the nefarious old timers.

>

> For awhile I was concerned that I might be indoctrinated against my

will by

> the power of osmosis. Now I content myself in taking a lot of

smoking

> breaks, ignoring people, thinking about making snorting noises into a

> Styrofoam cup (I'm still chuckling about that one) and steadfastly

refusing

> to utilize any of the XA jargon. I'm not always successful with the

last

> but I'm working on it.

>

> I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to

avoid

> indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or

spoken of

> in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind

off

> the crazy talk.

>

October 20, 1999

hecotr,

that was jsut about the greatest thing i have ever heard of being said

in a meeting! i aplaud you standing up for yourself and your beliefs.

No one in any meeting can take your right to express yourself away from

you. Bravo! if the " only requirement of membership " was really a

desire to stop drinking, then nothing you said should be offensive, or

so you would think. are you being compelled to ateend these meetings by

the courts? if not, why are you going?

dave

hector arroyo wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8725

> Hello Group,

>

> This being my first foray into 12sf, I thought I'd let y'all know

what

> happened to me tonight. After having read over one thousand

messages to

> this group I finally had the courage to speak my mind in a meeting.

It

> wasn't particularly difficult for me to do; however, the aftermath

was a

> little difficult to swallow.

>

> Turning it over to your higher power was the topic and after hearing

20

> some odd people declare their gratitude to theirs for helping to heal

them

> of their terrible disease I wasn't in the mood for another round of

> placating the program. Sure I'm required to be there but this group

has

> reminded me that I don't have to be a mindless zombie about it.

>

> As usual I didn't place my name on the list but just as usually

happens I

> was called on anyway. So I shared.

>

> I let everyone in the room know, in no uncertain terms, that I did

not have

> a disease.

>

> That when I first came into the program 7 months ago I bought that

line of

> hogwash because it was easier than admitting I (me personally, me

myself

> and I) was responsible for what I had been doing to myself. It

wasn't an

> easy realization to come by as the tendency, for me, is to seek

shelter in

> a friendlier " you're ok it's the disease working " mentality. From

the

> beginning this didn't seem quite right to me and I steadfastly

refused to

> work the steps or get a sponsor.

>

> Now; however, I realize that I had taken my personal desire to be

> intoxicated to an irresponsibly dangerous level. The truth is I

liked

> being drunk and if any opportunity for becoming drunk showed itself I

took

> it. Since I had gotten myself into this situation it was up to me

to get

> myself out of it and that is what I'm doing now but I don't need a

higher

> power to do for me what I can do for myself.

>

> After sharing these little tidbits one of the sickest people in the

rooms

>

> (you know the kind, one of those fellows who's been in the rooms for

> several years and keeps drinking and coming back and drinking and

coming

> back and letting the whole world know how it's different this time

and how

> he's got a new therapist and he'll quit now and yadda yadda yadda for

45 or

> so minutes)

>

> felt he had to speak again and angrily let everyone in the room know

he

> felt I shouldn't be there as I didn't think I was an alcoholic and

that I

> was making him uncomfortable so I should stop coming.

>

> I thanked him from the bottom of my heart and let him know I didn't

give a

> damn what he thought. Right about then an old timer (20 some odd

years in)

> just as angry as the first seconded the first idiots opinion so I

turned to

> him and thanked him and let him know I didn't give a damn what he

thought

> either and that I would say what I wanted whether they liked it or

not.

>

> The moderator attempted to interrupt my response which I refused to

let him

> do as I felt I had been personally attacked and every bit justified

in my

> response.

>

> The odd thing about the whole exchange was that quite a few people

were

> actually laughing about it. One guy went so far as to say he agreed

with

> me and he seconded me when I told the second idiot I didn't give a

damn

> what he thought either.

>

> For the first time I absolutely refused to tow the party line in what

I

> shared and I received ........... you guessed it absolutely no

cracker as a

> matter of fact they raided my cracker barrel.

>

> Do I feel good about the exchange? Not really, but it was necessary

for me

> to grow I think. If there was ever any doubt about not cow towing

the

> party line it evaporated tonight. The really good part is it had to

have

> evaporated in many newbie minds as well.

>

> The truth is that no matter how hard some of the old timers tried to

lay

> the dry drunk tag on me they just couldn't. I'm a naturally up kind

of

> person when I'm not drinking. It's kind of difficult to hang that

type of

> tag on the happiest most upbeat person in the room. That's not to

say I

> don't have my share of problems. I do but after I started reading

the

> messages in this group I realized a lot of them stemmed from AA. So

while

> I'm still required to go to AA meetings I content myself with

ignoring

> everyone but the newbies I've noticed have attracted the attention of

some

> of the nefarious old timers.

>

> For awhile I was concerned that I might be indoctrinated against my

will by

> the power of osmosis. Now I content myself in taking a lot of

smoking

> breaks, ignoring people, thinking about making snorting noises into a

> Styrofoam cup (I'm still chuckling about that one) and steadfastly

refusing

> to utilize any of the XA jargon. I'm not always successful with the

last

> but I'm working on it.

>

> I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to

avoid

> indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or

spoken of

> in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind

off

> the crazy talk.

>

October 20, 1999

hector,

that was jsut about the greatest thing i have ever heard of being said

in a meeting! i aplaud you standing up for yourself and your beliefs.

No one in any meeting can take your right to express yourself away from

you. Bravo! if the " only requirement of membership " was really a

desire to stop drinking, then nothing you said should be offensive, or

so you would think. are you being compelled to ateend these meetings by

the courts? if not, why are you going?

dave

hector arroyo wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8725

> Hello Group,

>

> This being my first foray into 12sf, I thought I'd let y'all know

what

> happened to me tonight. After having read over one thousand

messages to

> this group I finally had the courage to speak my mind in a meeting.

It

> wasn't particularly difficult for me to do; however, the aftermath

was a

> little difficult to swallow.

>

> Turning it over to your higher power was the topic and after hearing

20

> some odd people declare their gratitude to theirs for helping to heal

them

> of their terrible disease I wasn't in the mood for another round of

> placating the program. Sure I'm required to be there but this group

has

> reminded me that I don't have to be a mindless zombie about it.

>

> As usual I didn't place my name on the list but just as usually

happens I

> was called on anyway. So I shared.

>

> I let everyone in the room know, in no uncertain terms, that I did

not have

> a disease.

>

> That when I first came into the program 7 months ago I bought that

line of

> hogwash because it was easier than admitting I (me personally, me

myself

> and I) was responsible for what I had been doing to myself. It

wasn't an

> easy realization to come by as the tendency, for me, is to seek

shelter in

> a friendlier " you're ok it's the disease working " mentality. From

the

> beginning this didn't seem quite right to me and I steadfastly

refused to

> work the steps or get a sponsor.

>

> Now; however, I realize that I had taken my personal desire to be

> intoxicated to an irresponsibly dangerous level. The truth is I

liked

> being drunk and if any opportunity for becoming drunk showed itself I

took

> it. Since I had gotten myself into this situation it was up to me

to get

> myself out of it and that is what I'm doing now but I don't need a

higher

> power to do for me what I can do for myself.

>

> After sharing these little tidbits one of the sickest people in the

rooms

>

> (you know the kind, one of those fellows who's been in the rooms for

> several years and keeps drinking and coming back and drinking and

coming

> back and letting the whole world know how it's different this time

and how

> he's got a new therapist and he'll quit now and yadda yadda yadda for

45 or

> so minutes)

>

> felt he had to speak again and angrily let everyone in the room know

he

> felt I shouldn't be there as I didn't think I was an alcoholic and

that I

> was making him uncomfortable so I should stop coming.

>

> I thanked him from the bottom of my heart and let him know I didn't

give a

> damn what he thought. Right about then an old timer (20 some odd

years in)

> just as angry as the first seconded the first idiots opinion so I

turned to

> him and thanked him and let him know I didn't give a damn what he

thought

> either and that I would say what I wanted whether they liked it or

not.

>

> The moderator attempted to interrupt my response which I refused to

let him

> do as I felt I had been personally attacked and every bit justified

in my

> response.

>

> The odd thing about the whole exchange was that quite a few people

were

> actually laughing about it. One guy went so far as to say he agreed

with

> me and he seconded me when I told the second idiot I didn't give a

damn

> what he thought either.

>

> For the first time I absolutely refused to tow the party line in what

I

> shared and I received ........... you guessed it absolutely no

cracker as a

> matter of fact they raided my cracker barrel.

>

> Do I feel good about the exchange? Not really, but it was necessary

for me

> to grow I think. If there was ever any doubt about not cow towing

the

> party line it evaporated tonight. The really good part is it had to

have

> evaporated in many newbie minds as well.

>

> The truth is that no matter how hard some of the old timers tried to

lay

> the dry drunk tag on me they just couldn't. I'm a naturally up kind

of

> person when I'm not drinking. It's kind of difficult to hang that

type of

> tag on the happiest most upbeat person in the room. That's not to

say I

> don't have my share of problems. I do but after I started reading

the

> messages in this group I realized a lot of them stemmed from AA. So

while

> I'm still required to go to AA meetings I content myself with

ignoring

> everyone but the newbies I've noticed have attracted the attention of

some

> of the nefarious old timers.

>

> For awhile I was concerned that I might be indoctrinated against my

will by

> the power of osmosis. Now I content myself in taking a lot of

smoking

> breaks, ignoring people, thinking about making snorting noises into a

> Styrofoam cup (I'm still chuckling about that one) and steadfastly

refusing

> to utilize any of the XA jargon. I'm not always successful with the

last

> but I'm working on it.

>

> I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to

avoid

> indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or

spoken of

> in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind

off

> the crazy talk.

>

October 20, 1999

hector,

that was jsut about the greatest thing i have ever heard of being said

in a meeting! i aplaud you standing up for yourself and your beliefs.

No one in any meeting can take your right to express yourself away from

you. Bravo! if the " only requirement of membership " was really a

desire to stop drinking, then nothing you said should be offensive, or

so you would think. are you being compelled to ateend these meetings by

the courts? if not, why are you going?

dave

hector arroyo wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8725

> Hello Group,

>

> This being my first foray into 12sf, I thought I'd let y'all know

what

> happened to me tonight. After having read over one thousand

messages to

> this group I finally had the courage to speak my mind in a meeting.

It

> wasn't particularly difficult for me to do; however, the aftermath

was a

> little difficult to swallow.

>

> Turning it over to your higher power was the topic and after hearing

20

> some odd people declare their gratitude to theirs for helping to heal

them

> of their terrible disease I wasn't in the mood for another round of

> placating the program. Sure I'm required to be there but this group

has

> reminded me that I don't have to be a mindless zombie about it.

>

> As usual I didn't place my name on the list but just as usually

happens I

> was called on anyway. So I shared.

>

> I let everyone in the room know, in no uncertain terms, that I did

not have

> a disease.

>

> That when I first came into the program 7 months ago I bought that

line of

> hogwash because it was easier than admitting I (me personally, me

myself

> and I) was responsible for what I had been doing to myself. It

wasn't an

> easy realization to come by as the tendency, for me, is to seek

shelter in

> a friendlier " you're ok it's the disease working " mentality. From

the

> beginning this didn't seem quite right to me and I steadfastly

refused to

> work the steps or get a sponsor.

>

> Now; however, I realize that I had taken my personal desire to be

> intoxicated to an irresponsibly dangerous level. The truth is I

liked

> being drunk and if any opportunity for becoming drunk showed itself I

took

> it. Since I had gotten myself into this situation it was up to me

to get

> myself out of it and that is what I'm doing now but I don't need a

higher

> power to do for me what I can do for myself.

>

> After sharing these little tidbits one of the sickest people in the

rooms

>

> (you know the kind, one of those fellows who's been in the rooms for

> several years and keeps drinking and coming back and drinking and

coming

> back and letting the whole world know how it's different this time

and how

> he's got a new therapist and he'll quit now and yadda yadda yadda for

45 or

> so minutes)

>

> felt he had to speak again and angrily let everyone in the room know

he

> felt I shouldn't be there as I didn't think I was an alcoholic and

that I

> was making him uncomfortable so I should stop coming.

>

> I thanked him from the bottom of my heart and let him know I didn't

give a

> damn what he thought. Right about then an old timer (20 some odd

years in)

> just as angry as the first seconded the first idiots opinion so I

turned to

> him and thanked him and let him know I didn't give a damn what he

thought

> either and that I would say what I wanted whether they liked it or

not.

>

> The moderator attempted to interrupt my response which I refused to

let him

> do as I felt I had been personally attacked and every bit justified

in my

> response.

>

> The odd thing about the whole exchange was that quite a few people

were

> actually laughing about it. One guy went so far as to say he agreed

with

> me and he seconded me when I told the second idiot I didn't give a

damn

> what he thought either.

>

> For the first time I absolutely refused to tow the party line in what

I

> shared and I received ........... you guessed it absolutely no

cracker as a

> matter of fact they raided my cracker barrel.

>

> Do I feel good about the exchange? Not really, but it was necessary

for me

> to grow I think. If there was ever any doubt about not cow towing

the

> party line it evaporated tonight. The really good part is it had to

have

> evaporated in many newbie minds as well.

>

> The truth is that no matter how hard some of the old timers tried to

lay

> the dry drunk tag on me they just couldn't. I'm a naturally up kind

of

> person when I'm not drinking. It's kind of difficult to hang that

type of

> tag on the happiest most upbeat person in the room. That's not to

say I

> don't have my share of problems. I do but after I started reading

the

> messages in this group I realized a lot of them stemmed from AA. So

while

> I'm still required to go to AA meetings I content myself with

ignoring

> everyone but the newbies I've noticed have attracted the attention of

some

> of the nefarious old timers.

>

> For awhile I was concerned that I might be indoctrinated against my

will by

> the power of osmosis. Now I content myself in taking a lot of

smoking

> breaks, ignoring people, thinking about making snorting noises into a

> Styrofoam cup (I'm still chuckling about that one) and steadfastly

refusing

> to utilize any of the XA jargon. I'm not always successful with the

last

> but I'm working on it.

>

> I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to

avoid

> indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or

spoken of

> in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind

off

> the crazy talk.

>

October 20, 1999

hector,

that was jsut about the greatest thing i have ever heard of being said

in a meeting! i aplaud you standing up for yourself and your beliefs.

No one in any meeting can take your right to express yourself away from

you. Bravo! if the " only requirement of membership " was really a

desire to stop drinking, then nothing you said should be offensive, or

so you would think. are you being compelled to ateend these meetings by

the courts? if not, why are you going?

dave

hector arroyo wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8725

> Hello Group,

>

> This being my first foray into 12sf, I thought I'd let y'all know

what

> happened to me tonight. After having read over one thousand

messages to

> this group I finally had the courage to speak my mind in a meeting.

It

> wasn't particularly difficult for me to do; however, the aftermath

was a

> little difficult to swallow.

>

> Turning it over to your higher power was the topic and after hearing

20

> some odd people declare their gratitude to theirs for helping to heal

them

> of their terrible disease I wasn't in the mood for another round of

> placating the program. Sure I'm required to be there but this group

has

> reminded me that I don't have to be a mindless zombie about it.

>

> As usual I didn't place my name on the list but just as usually

happens I

> was called on anyway. So I shared.

>

> I let everyone in the room know, in no uncertain terms, that I did

not have

> a disease.

>

> That when I first came into the program 7 months ago I bought that

line of

> hogwash because it was easier than admitting I (me personally, me

myself

> and I) was responsible for what I had been doing to myself. It

wasn't an

> easy realization to come by as the tendency, for me, is to seek

shelter in

> a friendlier " you're ok it's the disease working " mentality. From

the

> beginning this didn't seem quite right to me and I steadfastly

refused to

> work the steps or get a sponsor.

>

> Now; however, I realize that I had taken my personal desire to be

> intoxicated to an irresponsibly dangerous level. The truth is I

liked

> being drunk and if any opportunity for becoming drunk showed itself I

took

> it. Since I had gotten myself into this situation it was up to me

to get

> myself out of it and that is what I'm doing now but I don't need a

higher

> power to do for me what I can do for myself.

>

> After sharing these little tidbits one of the sickest people in the

rooms

>

> (you know the kind, one of those fellows who's been in the rooms for

> several years and keeps drinking and coming back and drinking and

coming

> back and letting the whole world know how it's different this time

and how

> he's got a new therapist and he'll quit now and yadda yadda yadda for

45 or

> so minutes)

>

> felt he had to speak again and angrily let everyone in the room know

he

> felt I shouldn't be there as I didn't think I was an alcoholic and

that I

> was making him uncomfortable so I should stop coming.

>

> I thanked him from the bottom of my heart and let him know I didn't

give a

> damn what he thought. Right about then an old timer (20 some odd

years in)

> just as angry as the first seconded the first idiots opinion so I

turned to

> him and thanked him and let him know I didn't give a damn what he

thought

> either and that I would say what I wanted whether they liked it or

not.

>

> The moderator attempted to interrupt my response which I refused to

let him

> do as I felt I had been personally attacked and every bit justified

in my

> response.

>

> The odd thing about the whole exchange was that quite a few people

were

> actually laughing about it. One guy went so far as to say he agreed

with

> me and he seconded me when I told the second idiot I didn't give a

damn

> what he thought either.

>

> For the first time I absolutely refused to tow the party line in what

I

> shared and I received ........... you guessed it absolutely no

cracker as a

> matter of fact they raided my cracker barrel.

>

> Do I feel good about the exchange? Not really, but it was necessary

for me

> to grow I think. If there was ever any doubt about not cow towing

the

> party line it evaporated tonight. The really good part is it had to

have

> evaporated in many newbie minds as well.

>

> The truth is that no matter how hard some of the old timers tried to

lay

> the dry drunk tag on me they just couldn't. I'm a naturally up kind

of

> person when I'm not drinking. It's kind of difficult to hang that

type of

> tag on the happiest most upbeat person in the room. That's not to

say I

> don't have my share of problems. I do but after I started reading

the

> messages in this group I realized a lot of them stemmed from AA. So

while

> I'm still required to go to AA meetings I content myself with

ignoring

> everyone but the newbies I've noticed have attracted the attention of

some

> of the nefarious old timers.

>

> For awhile I was concerned that I might be indoctrinated against my

will by

> the power of osmosis. Now I content myself in taking a lot of

smoking

> breaks, ignoring people, thinking about making snorting noises into a

> Styrofoam cup (I'm still chuckling about that one) and steadfastly

refusing

> to utilize any of the XA jargon. I'm not always successful with the

last

> but I'm working on it.

>

> I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to

avoid

> indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or

spoken of

> in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind

off

> the crazy talk.

>

October 20, 1999

That's awesome ! That took an amazing about of courage. I've always

fantasized about doing that (speaking my mind at a meeting). I've

daydreamed about it but never had the nerve to actually do it. I think

you'd be surprised how many people in AA (who still have some of their free

will left) would agree with you 100% that alcohol abuse is not a disease.

Its just no one talks about. Most people just leave and don't come back.

The next time someone tells you should leave or says, " if you don't

like it, there's the door " ask them a question: 'Where am I supposed to

go?' Tell them you don't want to drink and need help, but since you can't

accept all of AA, what are you supposed to do? Turn it around on them.

Explain to them that there are no other options because AA is hogging all

the churches in your town. And they won't give SMART a fighting chance.

That may take them by surprise. As far as blocking out the AA

language and 'odes to the higher power' ad nauseum. I'd suggest just

laughing about it. Do the same thing they did to you. Feel good about

yourself that you are not living in that zombie like state anymore. That's

what I do or try to do, when I attend AA.

Keep up the good fight!!!! Matt

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: " '12-step-freeegroups' " <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: It happened tonight! well errr Yesterday Night!

>Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 00:32:05 -0500

>

>Hello Group,

>

>This being my first foray into 12sf, I thought I'd let y'all know what

>happened to me tonight. After having read over one thousand messages to

>this group I finally had the courage to speak my mind in a meeting. It

>wasn't particularly difficult for me to do; however, the aftermath was a

>little difficult to swallow.

>

>Turning it over to your higher power was the topic and after hearing 20

>some odd people declare their gratitude to theirs for helping to heal them

>of their terrible disease I wasn't in the mood for another round of

>placating the program. Sure I'm required to be there but this group has

>reminded me that I don't have to be a mindless zombie about it.

>

>As usual I didn't place my name on the list but just as usually happens I

>was called on anyway. So I shared.

>

>I let everyone in the room know, in no uncertain terms, that I did not have

>a disease.

>

>That when I first came into the program 7 months ago I bought that line of

>hogwash because it was easier than admitting I (me personally, me myself

>and I) was responsible for what I had been doing to myself. It wasn't an

>easy realization to come by as the tendency, for me, is to seek shelter in

>a friendlier " you're ok it's the disease working " mentality. From the

>beginning this didn't seem quite right to me and I steadfastly refused to

>work the steps or get a sponsor.

>

>Now; however, I realize that I had taken my personal desire to be

>intoxicated to an irresponsibly dangerous level. The truth is I liked

>being drunk and if any opportunity for becoming drunk showed itself I took

>it. Since I had gotten myself into this situation it was up to me to get

>myself out of it and that is what I'm doing now but I don't need a higher

>power to do for me what I can do for myself.

>

>After sharing these little tidbits one of the sickest people in the rooms

>

>(you know the kind, one of those fellows who's been in the rooms for

>several years and keeps drinking and coming back and drinking and coming

>back and letting the whole world know how it's different this time and how

>he's got a new therapist and he'll quit now and yadda yadda yadda for 45 or

>so minutes)

>

>felt he had to speak again and angrily let everyone in the room know he

>felt I shouldn't be there as I didn't think I was an alcoholic and that I

>was making him uncomfortable so I should stop coming.

>

>I thanked him from the bottom of my heart and let him know I didn't give a

>damn what he thought. Right about then an old timer (20 some odd years in)

>just as angry as the first seconded the first idiots opinion so I turned to

>him and thanked him and let him know I didn't give a damn what he thought

>either and that I would say what I wanted whether they liked it or not.

>

>The moderator attempted to interrupt my response which I refused to let him

>do as I felt I had been personally attacked and every bit justified in my

>response.

>

>The odd thing about the whole exchange was that quite a few people were

>actually laughing about it. One guy went so far as to say he agreed with

>me and he seconded me when I told the second idiot I didn't give a damn

>what he thought either.

>

>For the first time I absolutely refused to tow the party line in what I

>shared and I received ........... you guessed it absolutely no cracker as a

>matter of fact they raided my cracker barrel.

>

>Do I feel good about the exchange? Not really, but it was necessary for me

>to grow I think. If there was ever any doubt about not cow towing the

>party line it evaporated tonight. The really good part is it had to have

>evaporated in many newbie minds as well.

>

>The truth is that no matter how hard some of the old timers tried to lay

>the dry drunk tag on me they just couldn't. I'm a naturally up kind of

>person when I'm not drinking. It's kind of difficult to hang that type of

>tag on the happiest most upbeat person in the room. That's not to say I

>don't have my share of problems. I do but after I started reading the

>messages in this group I realized a lot of them stemmed from AA. So while

>I'm still required to go to AA meetings I content myself with ignoring

>everyone but the newbies I've noticed have attracted the attention of some

>of the nefarious old timers.

>

>For awhile I was concerned that I might be indoctrinated against my will by

>the power of osmosis. Now I content myself in taking a lot of smoking

>breaks, ignoring people, thinking about making snorting noises into a

>Styrofoam cup (I'm still chuckling about that one) and steadfastly refusing

>to utilize any of the XA jargon. I'm not always successful with the last

>but I'm working on it.

>

>I would love to hear any advice any of you might have as to how to avoid

>indoctrination or acceptance of any of the material presented or spoken of

>in meetings. Just about anything will do so long as it keeps my mind off

>the crazy talk.

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

______________________________________________________

October 20, 1999