Re: 12-step-free digest

>From: Psoftinfo@...

>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:51:39 EDT

>MIME-Version: 1.0

>Subject: An Introductory Message

>Mime-Version: 1.0

>Content-Type: text/plain; charset= " us-ascii "

>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>

>(WARNING: Long message!)

>

>I'm new to this email group, so let me give you some idea who I

>am ...

>

>- I am an atheist.

>

Apple,

What was the Ragge book - " AA: Cult or cure " ...? Or a different one?

>X-Mailing-List: 12-step-freeegroups

>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:49:08 -0700

>From: appledtp@...

>In-Reply-To:

>Subject: Re: Great book

>Mime-Version: 1.0

>Content-Type: text/plain

>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>

>Yes, I read it. I read it just before I read Ragge's book. I found

>the Gilliam book excellent, albeit a smidge politically correct. (I

>give my site the same criticism though) Ultimately it was Ragge's

>relentless and heartless critique which got me out of the rooms. No one

>had been so merciless before Ragge. I'll always hold that book in very

>high regard.

>Apple

>

Alan

>http://www.eGroups.com/list/12-step-free/?start=8837

______________________________________________________

October 27, 1999

This was a great post. Seemed completely neutral and without bias.

Then again, there is the opinion that having no bias is like being biased...

but that's a different story...

Anyway, it was cool. Look forward to more.

>

>X-Mailing-List: 12-step-freeegroups

>From: Psoftinfo@...

>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:51:39 EDT

>MIME-Version: 1.0

>Subject: An Introductory Message

>Mime-Version: 1.0

>Content-Type: text/plain; charset= " us-ascii "

>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>

>(WARNING: Long message!)

>

>I'm new to this email group, so let me give you some idea who I

>am ...

>

>- I am an atheist.

>

Apple,

What was the Ragge book - " AA: Cult or cure " ...? Or a different one?

>X-Mailing-List: 12-step-freeegroups

>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:49:08 -0700

>From: appledtp@...

>In-Reply-To:

>Subject: Re: Great book

>Mime-Version: 1.0

>Content-Type: text/plain

>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>

>Yes, I read it. I read it just before I read Ragge's book. I found

>the Gilliam book excellent, albeit a smidge politically correct. (I

>give my site the same criticism though) Ultimately it was Ragge's

>relentless and heartless critique which got me out of the rooms. No one

>had been so merciless before Ragge. I'll always hold that book in very

>high regard.

>Apple

>

Alan

>http://www.eGroups.com/list/12-step-free/?start=8837

______________________________________________________

October 27, 1999

This was a great post. Seemed completely neutral and without bias.

Then again, there is the opinion that having no bias is like being biased...

but that's a different story...

Anyway, it was cool. Look forward to more.

>

>X-Mailing-List: 12-step-freeegroups

>From: Psoftinfo@...

>Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:51:39 EDT

>MIME-Version: 1.0

>Subject: An Introductory Message

>Mime-Version: 1.0

>Content-Type: text/plain; charset= " us-ascii "

>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>

>(WARNING: Long message!)

>

>I'm new to this email group, so let me give you some idea who I

>am ...

>

>- I am an atheist.

>

Apple,

What was the Ragge book - " AA: Cult or cure " ...? Or a different one?

>X-Mailing-List: 12-step-freeegroups

>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:49:08 -0700

>From: appledtp@...

>In-Reply-To:

>Subject: Re: Great book

>Mime-Version: 1.0

>Content-Type: text/plain

>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>

>Yes, I read it. I read it just before I read Ragge's book. I found

>the Gilliam book excellent, albeit a smidge politically correct. (I

>give my site the same criticism though) Ultimately it was Ragge's

>relentless and heartless critique which got me out of the rooms. No one

>had been so merciless before Ragge. I'll always hold that book in very

>high regard.

>Apple

>

Alan

> >http://www.eGroups.com/list/12-step-free/?start=8837

______________________________________________________

October 28, 1999

Well well, if it isnt Alan " AA is the best " Ross.

Yeah, another AA apologist in our midst would perk you up wouldnt it?

This list isnt supposed to be abt being " neutral and unbiased " abt AA.

Just in case you had forgotten.

" alan ross " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=8839

> This was a great post. Seemed completely neutral and without bias.

>

> Then again, there is the opinion that having no bias is like being

biased...

> but that's a different story...

>

> Anyway, it was cool. Look forward to more.

>

> >

> >X-Mailing-List: 12-step-freeegroups

> >X-URL: /list/12-step-free/

> >From: Psoftinfo@...

> >Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:51:39 EDT

> >MIME-Version: 1.0

> >Subject: An Introductory Message

> >Mime-Version: 1.0

> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset= " us-ascii "

> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> >

> >(WARNING: Long message!)

> >

> >I'm new to this email group, so let me give you some idea who I

> >am ...

> >

> >- I am an atheist.

> >

>

> Apple,

>

> What was the Ragge book - " AA: Cult or cure " ...? Or a different one?

>

> >X-Mailing-List: 12-step-freeegroups

> >X-URL: /list/12-step-free/

> >Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:49:08 -0700

> >From: appledtp@...

> >In-Reply-To:

> >Subject: Re: Great book

> >Mime-Version: 1.0

> >Content-Type: text/plain

> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> >

> >Yes, I read it. I read it just before I read Ragge's book. I found

> >the Gilliam book excellent, albeit a smidge politically correct. (I

> >give my site the same criticism though) Ultimately it was Ragge's

> >relentless and heartless critique which got me out of the rooms. No

one

> >had been so merciless before Ragge. I'll always hold that book in

very

> >high regard.

> >Apple

> >

>

> Alan

> http://www.webroads.net/isser

>

> ______________________________________________________

November 1, 1999

This seemed like pretty good reasoning. Probably if I really believed that

AA does more bad than good in the world, like a lot of people in this list

seem to, I might buy into the line of reasoning. But given that assumption,

its pretty good.

>Kind of

>like saying I believe in racial equality but I hang with these white

>supremists because they have some good things to say and besides they

>are rather level headed about their bigotry. Participation is a form of

>support so you in fact support AA and in that light I can understand

>how this is not a place for you. Maybe you should really read the BB

>and contemplate the world view it supports and the farther reaching

>inplications and harm it can and does manifest in society rather than

>relaxing in the AA pleasantville you seem to experience in your own

>back yard.

>

I heard one interesting thing in a meeting this weekend. (I'm not sure if

quoting something that I heard in a meeting here is like when someone quotes

the bible at a meeting - where they think that people will take kindly to

it, but people really don't like it) We were all talking about how much

B.S. you hear in the rooms, probably like three people in a row shared about

it. Then this one guy said that you hear probably more B.S. in a bar than

you do in a meeting. I have to say that I'd agree with that. If I was

hanging out in a bar, I'd probably have to B.S. about sports, which I don't

care about AT ALL, like 90% of the time. So that sounded like pretty good

reasoning.

Keep coming back it works if you work it get a sponsor work the steps get a

higher power do a 90-in-90 and then leap off the tallest building you can

find. : ]

Alan

______________________________________________________

November 8, 1999

The only way you could be getting these emails is if someone signed you up

for the service. You need to stop making threats when you don't know what

you're talking about. You are harrassing everyone on the list more than

they are harrassing you. Maybe WE should ALL write to your ISP. Hmmmmm...

this person just started coming onto our list and making random threats at

people when they had absolutely no idea what was going on...

Good luck in the future...

Alan

>what didnt you get my message yet hmmmm can you say good bye from >your ISP

>thats what happens if they get responses that your pulling this crap >so if

>i

>were you I'd think twice about sending out mass e-mails, BETTER >CHECK TO

>SEE

>MY EMAIL IS OFF YOUR LIST IF NOT I WILL TELL YOUR ISP YOUR DOING >THIS!

p.s. This person is probably a stepper, which is why she got so pissed off

at getting the list - she should really " turn it over " ... hehe

______________________________________________________

November 11, 1999

Pete wrote:

>Ironically, it is quite likely that methadone

>would be useful for depressives who arent opiate dependent, but with

>methadone maintenance programs struggling for survival for opiate

>dependents, there is little chance of it ever being subscribed for

>other ppl.

I know of a fellow in Tennessee who was on the Methadone Patients List, which I

am also a

member of. He managed to find a doctor who prescribed methadone for depression

and he

is doing very well on it. Of course finding such a doctor is a very rare thing.

Methadone has

an unusual quality that other opiate drugs don't have: it can be used to

maintain a person

without that person either nodding off on it (assuming the dose is correct) ...

people on

methadone are more able to actually get up and do things than people on pain

pills or heroin.

Also, a stable dose tends to remain the same, without the user developing the

tolerance that

would cause him or her to have to always be increasing the dose of methadone to

avoid

withdrawals. It really seems to be designed for exactly the thing that it is

used for:

maintenance. (And I do maintain that the stuff saved my life from ODs and all

the other

horrors of heroin.)

-DM

demitria monde thraam

transmits at:

November 11, 1999

Pete wrote:

>Ironically, it is quite likely that methadone

>would be useful for depressives who arent opiate dependent, but with

>methadone maintenance programs struggling for survival for opiate

>dependents, there is little chance of it ever being subscribed for

>other ppl.

I know of a fellow in Tennessee who was on the Methadone Patients List, which I

am also a

member of. He managed to find a doctor who prescribed methadone for depression

and he

is doing very well on it. Of course finding such a doctor is a very rare thing.

Methadone has

an unusual quality that other opiate drugs don't have: it can be used to

maintain a person

without that person either nodding off on it (assuming the dose is correct) ...

people on

methadone are more able to actually get up and do things than people on pain

pills or heroin.

Also, a stable dose tends to remain the same, without the user developing the

tolerance that

would cause him or her to have to always be increasing the dose of methadone to

avoid

withdrawals. It really seems to be designed for exactly the thing that it is

used for:

maintenance. (And I do maintain that the stuff saved my life from ODs and all

the other

horrors of heroin.)

-DM

demitria monde thraam

transmits at:

November 11, 1999

Pete wrote:

>Ironically, it is quite likely that methadone

>would be useful for depressives who arent opiate dependent, but with

>methadone maintenance programs struggling for survival for opiate

>dependents, there is little chance of it ever being subscribed for

>other ppl.

I know of a fellow in Tennessee who was on the Methadone Patients List, which I

am also a

member of. He managed to find a doctor who prescribed methadone for depression

and he

is doing very well on it. Of course finding such a doctor is a very rare thing.

Methadone has

an unusual quality that other opiate drugs don't have: it can be used to

maintain a person

without that person either nodding off on it (assuming the dose is correct) ...

people on

methadone are more able to actually get up and do things than people on pain

pills or heroin.

Also, a stable dose tends to remain the same, without the user developing the

tolerance that

would cause him or her to have to always be increasing the dose of methadone to

avoid

withdrawals. It really seems to be designed for exactly the thing that it is

used for:

maintenance. (And I do maintain that the stuff saved my life from ODs and all

the other

horrors of heroin.)

-DM

demitria monde thraam

transmits at:

> http://clickhere./click/1142

November 17, 1999

THAT IS EXACTLY WHY I THOUGHT THIS SHRINK WHO TRIED PUTTING ME ON ANTABUSE

WAS INEPT AS HELL!

Sheesh, all the crap that has alcohol in it, anti-persperants, mouthwash,

etc etc. I was an inpatient in a psych ward when this bimbo wanted me to

take Antabuse. I 'cheeked' the damn pill, spit it in the toilet and tore

the 'script to shreds after I was released.

~Trixxi

re: 12-step-free digest

> Jim wrote:

>

> >I realize what I've contributed is a bit of a detour from the main

> >subject matter, but I hope that maybe I've provided some info that will

> >spare some other junky the misery I brought on myself. You'll suffer

> >plenty in mandatory 12-Step indoctrination; no need to compound the

> >pain by playing around with naltrexone unsupervised.

>

> Hello Jim...I'm also an ex-heroin addict...the only other one on the list

as far as I can tell (and

> if I'm wrong, and there are other ex-junkies here, give a wave!)

>

> I went the methadone route, and never once could deal with the whole idea

of taking Trexan

> (Naltrexone). It seemed as though it would just make me feel terrible.

What if I got in an

> accident and needed painkillers?! I didn't trust its effect on my own

natural endorphines

> either...what was left of them, that is.

>

> In the end methadone ended up being my saving grace. I'm trying to get

off it now, though,

> because it made me fat. I guess it's worth losing my figure to save my

life, though, and I

> maintain that if it weren't for methadone I'd have died years ago. But

it's been 8 years now

> and it's time to move on. Of course all my college

buddies-turned-step-nazis are pleased as

> punch about that decision. They probably think it's their prayers for me

that caused it. Uh

> boy.

>

> Take care,

> -DMT

>

> demitria monde thraam

> transmits at:

> http://thraam.com

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Looking for the latest consumer electronic gadgets or computer

> equipment? eBay has thousands of audio equipment, computer

> games & accessories. You never know what you might find at eBay!

>

> -- Check out your group's private Chat room

> -- /ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

>

November 17, 1999

THAT IS EXACTLY WHY I THOUGHT THIS SHRINK WHO TRIED PUTTING ME ON ANTABUSE

WAS INEPT AS HELL!

Sheesh, all the crap that has alcohol in it, anti-persperants, mouthwash,

etc etc. I was an inpatient in a psych ward when this bimbo wanted me to

take Antabuse. I 'cheeked' the damn pill, spit it in the toilet and tore

the 'script to shreds after I was released.

~Trixxi

re: 12-step-free digest

> Jim wrote:

>

> >I realize what I've contributed is a bit of a detour from the main

> >subject matter, but I hope that maybe I've provided some info that will

> >spare some other junky the misery I brought on myself. You'll suffer

> >plenty in mandatory 12-Step indoctrination; no need to compound the

> >pain by playing around with naltrexone unsupervised.

>

> Hello Jim...I'm also an ex-heroin addict...the only other one on the list

as far as I can tell (and

> if I'm wrong, and there are other ex-junkies here, give a wave!)

>

> I went the methadone route, and never once could deal with the whole idea

of taking Trexan

> (Naltrexone). It seemed as though it would just make me feel terrible.

What if I got in an

> accident and needed painkillers?! I didn't trust its effect on my own

natural endorphines

> either...what was left of them, that is.

>

> In the end methadone ended up being my saving grace. I'm trying to get

off it now, though,

> because it made me fat. I guess it's worth losing my figure to save my

life, though, and I

> maintain that if it weren't for methadone I'd have died years ago. But

it's been 8 years now

> and it's time to move on. Of course all my college

buddies-turned-step-nazis are pleased as

> punch about that decision. They probably think it's their prayers for me

that caused it. Uh

> boy.

>

> Take care,

> -DMT

>

> demitria monde thraam

> transmits at:

> http://thraam.com

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Looking for the latest consumer electronic gadgets or computer

> equipment? eBay has thousands of audio equipment, computer

> games & accessories. You never know what you might find at eBay!

> http://clickhere./click/1142

>

> -- Check out your group's private Chat room

> -- /ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

>

November 17, 1999

THAT IS EXACTLY WHY I THOUGHT THIS SHRINK WHO TRIED PUTTING ME ON ANTABUSE

WAS INEPT AS HELL!

Sheesh, all the crap that has alcohol in it, anti-persperants, mouthwash,

etc etc. I was an inpatient in a psych ward when this bimbo wanted me to

take Antabuse. I 'cheeked' the damn pill, spit it in the toilet and tore

the 'script to shreds after I was released.

~Trixxi

re: 12-step-free digest

> Jim wrote:

>

> >I realize what I've contributed is a bit of a detour from the main

> >subject matter, but I hope that maybe I've provided some info that will

> >spare some other junky the misery I brought on myself. You'll suffer

> >plenty in mandatory 12-Step indoctrination; no need to compound the

> >pain by playing around with naltrexone unsupervised.

>

> Hello Jim...I'm also an ex-heroin addict...the only other one on the list

as far as I can tell (and

> if I'm wrong, and there are other ex-junkies here, give a wave!)

>

> I went the methadone route, and never once could deal with the whole idea

of taking Trexan

> (Naltrexone). It seemed as though it would just make me feel terrible.

What if I got in an

> accident and needed painkillers?! I didn't trust its effect on my own

natural endorphines

> either...what was left of them, that is.

>

> In the end methadone ended up being my saving grace. I'm trying to get

off it now, though,

> because it made me fat. I guess it's worth losing my figure to save my

life, though, and I

> maintain that if it weren't for methadone I'd have died years ago. But

it's been 8 years now

> and it's time to move on. Of course all my college

buddies-turned-step-nazis are pleased as

> punch about that decision. They probably think it's their prayers for me

that caused it. Uh

> boy.

>

> Take care,

> -DMT

>

> demitria monde thraam

> transmits at:

> http://thraam.com

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Looking for the latest consumer electronic gadgets or computer

> equipment? eBay has thousands of audio equipment, computer

> games & accessories. You never know what you might find at eBay!

> http://clickhere./click/1142

>

> -- Check out your group's private Chat room

> -- /ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

>

November 17, 1999

Jim wrote:

>I realize what I've contributed is a bit of a detour from the main

>subject matter, but I hope that maybe I've provided some info that will

>spare some other junky the misery I brought on myself. You'll suffer

>plenty in mandatory 12-Step indoctrination; no need to compound the

>pain by playing around with naltrexone unsupervised.

Hello Jim...I'm also an ex-heroin addict...the only other one on the list as far

as I can tell (and

if I'm wrong, and there are other ex-junkies here, give a wave!)

I went the methadone route, and never once could deal with the whole idea of

taking Trexan

(Naltrexone). It seemed as though it would just make me feel terrible. What if

I got in an

accident and needed painkillers?! I didn't trust its effect on my own natural

endorphines

either...what was left of them, that is.

In the end methadone ended up being my saving grace. I'm trying to get off it

now, though,

because it made me fat. I guess it's worth losing my figure to save my life,

though, and I

maintain that if it weren't for methadone I'd have died years ago. But it's

been 8 years now

and it's time to move on. Of course all my college buddies-turned-step-nazis

are pleased as

punch about that decision. They probably think it's their prayers for me that

caused it. Uh

boy.

Take care,

-DMT

demitria monde thraam

transmits at:

November 23, 1999

Alan wrote:

>Anyway, I'm probably closer to drinking now than I've ever been. I've

>abstained for like four and a half years and I'm thinking that I might be

>able to control my drinking. The big problem is the " might " . The risks,

>right now, just don't make it seem worth it. So, I think I'll probably not.

>Goddamn it though, it fucking sucks. I don't believe in anything the

>program stands for except that. I don't want to use - today. I guess I

>have to stop feeling guilty for agreeing with them on that fact. I just

>feel like so not a part of them... I want to break away... but I'm not

>ready... yet.

Just because you feel unsure of your ability to control your use right now

doesn't mean you

are attached to the " Program " . I think as long as you don't go around spouting

slogans and

running on dogma you're all right. Hell, I think all of us have at least one or

two bits and

pieces that we wanted to take, and " leave the rest " . It's just that the " rest "

seems to usually

consist of about 96% of the whole deal.

My own example: I actually think the Serenity Prayer makes some modicum of

sense, if I

take the " God, grant me the...blahblahblah " part out and substitute it with

" May I find the

strength within myself " . and the idea and practise of the 9th step makes sense

(it essentially

equates to " dealing with your karma " .) It just has to be taken out of the

context of all the rest

of the poppycock, all the tripe about powerlessness and addiction-is-a-disease

and Higher

Power and all that.

-dmt

demitria monde thraam

transmits at: