Re: I'm angry

[Guest guest]

Hey ;

I never stayed sober in AA, maybe I didn't work the program

correctly what?

The picture you paint of the " Collapsed Jack " is an appealing one.

Wonder if I could arrange it for a couple of them. One for you one

for me, but I get to watch! 8-)

Seriously, well maybe I was serious. However, I always hated

those one size fits none pop psychobabble phrases. I suppose

The Jews in Birkenau were where they were supposed to be

according to AA. One of the more ridiculous things I've heard.

However one of those pat phrases was a good affirmation for my

having left AA, it's " Keep doin' what you're doin', you'll keep gettin'

what you're gettin'. " With what I was gettin' from AA it was a good

idea not to keep doin' it!

In all fairness, before the advent of the TX's, I never heard any

psychobabble, no elavil is a slip, no Alcoholism is a disease.

Sometimes sponsors would recomend a shrink(Honest) I'm not

saying AA was great, but there was no " Attack Dog " mentality and

no psyche jargon. The slogans were common sayings like " Live

and let live " as a tolerance reminder. As common courtesy you

didn't question someone else's sobriety, even if you knew they lied

claiming a year and you'd seen them drunk two months previously.

It was their problem and usually they'd cop out after while. You

know how hard that would be to keep up.

Most folks didn't take the twelve steps all that seriously, not like

they do now. In Aug of 66 I drank for one day after being sober

from Feb. My sponsor's admonition was, " It looks like you just

haven't fully accepted that you cannot drink successfully. " That

was it, no finger pointing, no me against the group. It started

changing in 67 with the advent of the detox center, where

incidentally I went to work as a counsellor. I relapsed twice in the

year I worked there. Something was missing for me, but I had not

the faintest Idea what it was. That's when the " Disease " started

and at first AA rejected the idea. However, soon the ranks of AA

were filled with detox graduates and the transition was a given.

Now nearly all AA members have gone through treatment and AA

has become an extension of treatment with its' confrontations and

for Gods Sake Feedback! Group feedback should only be

conducted in the presence of a qualified Psychologist or

psychiatrist. A shrink will put a stop to some idiot throwing

psychobabble around. Of course he also won't treat a guy like God

just because he has abstained from alcohol for ten years. That

would be intolerable to the AA Guru's

IF this were 1966, I would be torn, because all the folks in AA were

so damned decent back then. Not just because they put me up

and arranged a job for me, but they stayed that way and invited me

into the group. From the podium the talks were mostly centered

on self honesty. Half of the time was spent in humor and I hadn't

laughed much in a long time. I was one of the group and it felt

good.

Alas that was 25 years ago and this is now. Now it's a no brainer.

Unqualified people calling themselves counsellors, running

treatment and AA. Using the 12 steps as a weapon on vulnerable

people. The majority would rather climb a tree to tell a lie than

stand on the ground and tell the truth. I don't need pain first to

make me feel better.

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[Guest guest]

Yes Joe... In fact, I once heard that " powerlessness " is the number one

complaint on suicide hotline calls.

Apple

>

> The saddest part of this, apart that is from the obvious nonsense of

this

> type of " treatment " is that the highly dysfunctional ideas of

> powerlessness, surrender and incurable disease embodied in the steps

are

> likly to cause or exacerbate depression rather than treat it.

>

> Joe Berenbaum

> mailto:joe-b@...

>

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[Guest guest]

At 02:35 AM 7/4/99 PDT, Judith Stillwater wrote:

>Ya know...I was angry when I initially wrote this post, but responses like

>this bring me beyond anger for myself, to concern for the welfare of others.

>I'm glad legal action is being taken, and I'm glad alternatives to AA

>are...even in existence now. But clearly AA and the treatment industry are

>still doing what was done to me. I would be interested to know of the

>suicide rate of people in 12 step programs relative to that of people who

>are not in 12 step programs; I wonder how I could research that.

This is anecdotal, but I would not at all be surprised if the suicide

rate of problem drinkers went up after being introduced to/indoctrinated

into AA. Of course, AA itself would ignore such statistical evidence,

pointing out that by the time people get to a point where they find AA,

they're desperate (while this may be a contributing factor, AA may dash any

hopes they had of regaining control of their lives), and suicide is just one

end result of the 'progression of the disease'. Also, one of the catch

phrases I heard about every suicide was " he was constitutionally incapable

of being honest with himself. " Thus in AA it is always the suicide's fault,

in spite of the " help " that AA'ers so freely tried to give.

I've mentioned this before, but I remember years ago hearing about

Dr. Talbott's heavy-handed and 'remarkably successful' 12-step-based treatment

for doctors, where there had been 10 doctors who committed suicide after

going through the program.

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

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[Guest guest]

Hi Judith

Of course, XA groups never let ppl research them properly.

....and claim " humble non-promotion " as the reason!

in my recent debateds on my list with 2 ppl who say they

are not steppers, maybe they are not.

but, they're not asllowed to say if they are.

most ppl when someone promotes something, WANT to knowe if

the person belongs, so they can take that inot

consideration when evaluating the claim.

with anonymoty, poppl can sing XA praises to the rooftops

never letting on that theyre promotibg a cult that they

belong to.

you cant even check out their personal stories!

Pete

On Sun, 04 Jul 1999 02:35:59 PDT Judith Stillwater

wrote:

> Ya know...I was angry when I initially wrote this post, but responses like

> this bring me beyond anger for myself, to concern for the welfare of others.

> I'm glad legal action is being taken, and I'm glad alternatives to AA

> are...even in existence now. But clearly AA and the treatment industry are

> still doing what was done to me. I would be interested to know of the

> suicide rate of people in 12 step programs relative to that of people who

> are not in 12 step programs; I wonder how I could research that.

>

> Judith

>

>

>

> > Yes Joe... In fact, I once heard that " powerlessness " is the number one

> complaint on suicide hotline calls.

> > Apple

>

> > > The saddest part of this, apart that is from the obvious nonsense of

> this type of " treatment " is that the highly dysfunctional ideas of

> powerlessness, surrender and incurable disease embodied in the steps are

> likly to cause or exacerbate depression rather than treat it.

> > > Joe Berenbaum

>

>

>

>

> _______________________________________________________

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>

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>

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>

>

>

>

Pete Watts

Owner

PSY-PHAR Psychology/Psychiatry Outcome Research in PsychoPharm

PD Personality Disorders Discussion

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[Guest guest]

Clearly AA and the Twelve Steps are major causes of depression. Just

check with Bill . Even a string of mistresses, a cult following,

chain smoking, and L.S.D. couldn't lift him from a depression

strengthened and exacerbated by his own spirit hobbling screed.

Actually I'm being a bit hard on Bill since AA is merely repackaged

Oxford Group. The poor bugger was conned by Buchman's Group, as

was poor old Dr. Bob. They were both taken advantage of when they were

most vulnerable. They just carried the message. A couple of poor deluded

souls on fire with Bill's reconstituted vision of sobriety through

religious conversion.

I guess you could look at Bill as playing Mussolini to

Buchman's Hitler. Only in this case Mussolini escapes to Brazil, has

plastic surgery, changes his identity, repackages fascism in a more

palatable form, and then emerges victorious to peddle his wares in the

very nation that just defeated him.

Maybe Bill's depression would have gone away if he'd just smashed his

own ego sufficiently, and not gone on and created the organization that

has oppressed us all. Hell, if they'd had Prozac back in the 30's we

probably wouldn't even be having this conversation. But they didn't so

we are now subjected to a seemingly endless lineage of counterfeit do

gooders passing on the abuse that was so freely given to them.

And the beat goes on.......................................................

Judith Stillwater wrote:

>

> Ya know...I was angry when I initially wrote this post, but responses like

> this bring me beyond anger for myself, to concern for the welfare of others.

> I'm glad legal action is being taken, and I'm glad alternatives to AA

> are...even in existence now. But clearly AA and the treatment industry are

> still doing what was done to me. I would be interested to know of the

> suicide rate of people in 12 step programs relative to that of people who

> are not in 12 step programs; I wonder how I could research that.

>

> Judith

>

>

>

> > Yes Joe... In fact, I once heard that " powerlessness " is the number one

> complaint on suicide hotline calls.

> > Apple

>

> > > The saddest part of this, apart that is from the obvious nonsense of

> this type of " treatment " is that the highly dysfunctional ideas of

> powerlessness, surrender and incurable disease embodied in the steps are

> likly to cause or exacerbate depression rather than treat it.

> > > Joe Berenbaum

>

> _______________________________________________________

> Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals!

> Try something new and discover more ways to save!

> http://clickhere./click/381

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

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[Guest guest]

Clearly AA and the Twelve Steps are major causes of depression. Just

check with Bill . Even a string of mistresses, a cult following,

chain smoking, and L.S.D. couldn't lift him from a depression

strengthened and exacerbated by his own spirit hobbling screed.

Actually I'm being a bit hard on Bill since AA is merely repackaged

Oxford Group. The poor bugger was conned by Buchman's Group, as

was poor old Dr. Bob. They were both taken advantage of when they were

most vulnerable. They just carried the message. A couple of poor deluded

souls on fire with Bill's reconstituted vision of sobriety through

religious conversion.

I guess you could look at Bill as playing Mussolini to

Buchman's Hitler. Only in this case Mussolini escapes to Brazil, has

plastic surgery, changes his identity, repackages fascism in a more

palatable form, and then emerges victorious to peddle his wares in the

very nation that just defeated him.

Maybe Bill's depression would have gone away if he'd just smashed his

own ego sufficiently, and not gone on and created the organization that

has oppressed us all. Hell, if they'd had Prozac back in the 30's we

probably wouldn't even be having this conversation. But they didn't so

we are now subjected to a seemingly endless lineage of counterfeit do

gooders passing on the abuse that was so freely given to them.

And the beat goes on.......................................................

Judith Stillwater wrote:

>

> Ya know...I was angry when I initially wrote this post, but responses like

> this bring me beyond anger for myself, to concern for the welfare of others.

> I'm glad legal action is being taken, and I'm glad alternatives to AA

> are...even in existence now. But clearly AA and the treatment industry are

> still doing what was done to me. I would be interested to know of the

> suicide rate of people in 12 step programs relative to that of people who

> are not in 12 step programs; I wonder how I could research that.

>

> Judith

>

>

>

> > Yes Joe... In fact, I once heard that " powerlessness " is the number one

> complaint on suicide hotline calls.

> > Apple

>

> > > The saddest part of this, apart that is from the obvious nonsense of

> this type of " treatment " is that the highly dysfunctional ideas of

> powerlessness, surrender and incurable disease embodied in the steps are

> likly to cause or exacerbate depression rather than treat it.

> > > Joe Berenbaum

>

> _______________________________________________________

> Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals!

> Try something new and discover more ways to save!

> http://clickhere./click/381

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

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[Guest guest]

> Hi Judith,

>

> I was just enjoying rereading this post of yours, and it made me think of

something I copied for myself off of the RR website. Here it is.

>

> A Group places its own interests above the well-being of it's members.

Groups must have sustained, growing membership, or they falter and cease to

exist. Recovery groups thrive upon the dependence of addicted people who

seek the implicit moral absolution of similarly troubled people who desire

to procrastinate the painful decision to cease and desist from further use

of alcohol and drugs. For this reprieve, they exchange their autonomy and

identities as free people.>

And this indoctrination runs deep, at least for me. It's like they knew

where I was weakest and took careful aim at that vulnerable spot. Just to

tell the truth about what happened to me, still makes me feel a little

guilty, a little fearful of punishment. (But I'll get over it

> I also watched a video on the 4th. that I believe would appeal to most of

you free thinkers. It 's called " The Fountainhead " (B & W 1949) with

. It's a movie that honors the individual and the indomitable human

spirit, and I always come away feeling vindicated of my AA indignities after

watching it. I get a similar feeling when I read all of your posts. This

film is one of the many things that inspired my departure from AA. It's

available for rent at many Video Stores. I'd love to hear your opinions if

you should happen to give it a shot.>

I think I read that book many years ago, and enjoyed it. I'll have to rent

the movie, it sounds good.

Judith

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[Guest guest]

Hi Leigh, I pulled out 2 paragraphs from your post to respond to. Ever

since I wrote about being angry about what happened to me, I've been feeling

a little like a naughty kid. A little guilty. But this mailing list seems

to be an appropriate place for dealing with the anger and the guilt, and I

really appreciate the support I've gotten.

Judith

> I have been in intensive therapy since that happened, and I no longer

attend any 12 step program. Which although today I don't drink, I still

feel guilty for not going to meetings. >

> LOL, again, I feel as if I may offend someone who reads this, and if so I

apologize. I am only expressing MY Feelings, that pertain only to me. I make

no Suggestion that this is what happens to everyone. This is entirely my own

experience.

> Leigh

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/5/99 4:22:27 AM Central Daylight Time,

johnhollister@... writes:

<< Judith Stillwater wrote:

>

> gotta get this off my chest...

>

> I'm angry because I needed help specifically for depression in 1984 and

> instead I got help for chemical dependency, even though an evaluation

showed

> that I was not chemically dependent. >>

Hi, I totally understand this anger and statement. I too sought help for

depression , 10 years ago, and not only was sent to AA, but, NA, CODA, and

ACOA, the only thing they didn't send me and require me to attend in

treatment was Sex anonymous (LOL, guess its because there hadn't been a group

started there yet) When I was admitted to the hospital, I discovered I had

Manic Depressive disorder. was put on a multitude of meds that were necessary

to find what would work. Then on a program of Alcohol,etc recovery as well to

try to work my way through. Mainly because I came from a Catholic family

where alcohol was a way of life. The doctors felt, I had to learn NOT To

Drink with the Medicine's that had been prescribed to control my depression.

With that I agree. But, being thrown to the wolves in AA made my depressions

much worse, and my self confidence , what little was left, was totally buried.

I was a Wanna be AA for a couple of years , as I so wanted to belong

somewhere. So I started believing more and more I was just an alcoholic, and

tried to reason, that I did not have a depressive/mental disorder.

But, it was not to be, for I was never accepted, and I didn't become the

person that the people who talked AA to me wanted me to be. I began to be

shunned, and shamed to the point, I wouldn't leave my home any longer or

answer the phone. It increased my depression to worse suicidal episodes in

the long run.

I have been in intensive therapy since that happened, and I no longer attend

any 12 step program. Which although today I don't drink, I still feel guilty

for not going to meetings. More so than not attending Church on Sundays.

I would say that is powerful programming.

I didn't know there were others out there who had gone through Hell in AA and

survived.

I thank God this morning for having found this place to vent my anger freely

outside of a therapist office, who by working with me the last 4 years feels

I was wronged in being sent to AA. He believes it is needed When it is truly

needed. But, then there are those it makes sicker in the end.

LOL, again, I feel as if I may offend someone who reads this, and if so I

apologize. I am only expressing MY Feelings, that pertain only to me. I make

no Suggestion that this is what happens to everyone. This is entirely my own

experience.

Leigh

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[Guest guest]

Hi Judith,

I was just enjoying rereading this post of yours, and it made me think

of something I copied for myself off of the RR website. Here it is.

A Group places its own interests above the well-being of it's members.

Groups must have sustained, growing membership, or they falter and cease

to exist. Recovery groups thrive upon the dependence of addicted people

who seek the implicit moral absolution of similarly troubled people who

desire to procrastinate the painful decision to cease and desist from

further use of alcohol and drugs. For this reprieve, they exchange their

autonomy and identities as free people.

I also watched a video on the 4th. that I believe would appeal to most

of you free thinkers. It 's called " The Fountainhead " (B & W 1949) with

. It's a movie that honors the individual and the indomitable

human spirit, and I always come away feeling vindicated of my AA

indignities after watching it. I get a similar feeling when I read all

of your posts. This film is one of the many things that inspired my

departure from AA. It's available for rent at many Video Stores. I'd

love to hear your opinions if you should happen to give it a shot.

Judith Stillwater wrote:

>

> gotta get this off my chest...

>

> I'm angry because I needed help specifically for depression in 1984 and

> instead I got help for chemical dependency, even though an evaluation showed

> that I was not chemically dependent.

>

> I'm angry because no other option was made available to me at the time. At

> that point, my depression was very treatable, but I was not given the option

> of specific treatment for depression (e.g., medication, therapy).

>

> I'm angry because the EAP (employee assistance program) counselor said,

> " once we treat the chemical dependency, we'll treat the depression. " Then

> the treatment for depression was a " 12 step therapist " who made me feel

> ashamed for not finding all the answers in the 12 steps. In other words,

> there was no treatment for the depression outside the 12 steps. In other

> words, there was no treatment for the depression. In other words, they lied

> to me.

>

> I'm angry because, even though I didn't consciously buy what AA was selling,

> the message " if you disobey me you will die and go to hell " resonated with

> what I learned as a child and has continued to affect me.

>

> I'm angry because even as I express this anger, part of me is saying

> judgmentally, " self-pity: you're just feeling sorry for yourself, you're

> blaming AA for your own mistakes and problems. "

>

> I'm angry. I'm not sorry or ashamed that I'm angry. I was hurt badly 15

> years ago. I was emotionally vulnerable and I was willing to work to get

> better. But my vulnerability and willingness to work were used to

> manipulate me into doing what was best for the treatment facility and AA,

> instead of what was best for me. I don't give a good goddam what their

> intentions were; I care about the outcome, I care that I was injured when I

> was vulnerable.

>

> I've tried to write this post about 3 times and discarded it each time.

> This time it gets sent. This is really how I feel--it's not up to someone

> else to label it for me or interpret it for me, so they can " help " me

> " recover. " My feelings, my life, are mine. My choices are mine. My

> perceptions are valid and I can trust myself.

>

> I made the choice to let go of AA in 1985. Now, I'm making the choice to

> let go of the remnants of 12 step thinking. My pain is valid. My anger is

> valid. My emotions are not defects of character, and I do not need to

> become ready to have God remove them. I do not have a lifelong, incurable

> disease that makes me different from everyone else.

>

> I know I'm far from perfect, and I look forward to spending the rest of my

> life living in accordance with MY OWN beliefs. Being agnostic, I am my own

> higher power; I have a conscience, I have the ability to tell right from

> wrong and make good choices. Most of all, I have the ability to figure out,

> with the help of my friends and family and co-workers, what is good about me

> and what I'd like to change.

>

> I do hold the EAP, the treatment facility, and AA accountable for the harm

> they did to me. I am held accountable for my mistakes; I hold others

> accountable for theirs.

>

> Thanks for letting me vent.

>

> Judith

>

> _______________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Hi :

Ayn Rand who wrote the book " The Fountainhead " was actually discussed

on this list several months ago. Seems that her writing & philosophies

make great AA detox material, and I do have an Ayn Rand link on my

site. I perused the book but it looks really fat with tiny print, and

I'm not in the mood right now. Maybe the film would be an adequate

substitute.

Apple

>

> I also watched a video on the 4th. that I believe would appeal to most

> of you free thinkers. It 's called " The Fountainhead " (B & W 1949) with

> . It's a movie that honors the individual and the

indomitable

> human spirit, and I always come away feeling vindicated of my AA

> indignities after watching it. I get a similar feeling when I read all

> of your posts. This film is one of the many things that inspired my

> departure from AA. It's available for rent at many Video Stores. I'd

> love to hear your opinions if you should happen to give it a shot.

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Hi Leigh;

Leigh, it does happen to anyone with any kind of PD. We

stagnate, then start a downward spiral, because what we REALLY

believe and the 12step teachings are in opposition to each other.

When we accomplish something, we want some Kudo's for what

we did, not " It's great God did that for you! " No God keeps me

sober, I don't put booze in my mouth, that's what keeps me sober.

When unknown to me I needed therapy for PTSD, AA told me to

take a moral inventory. Not much value in that except it made me

depressed and the AA treatment for that was take another moral

inventory and get off " The Pity Pot " . AA as someone said is the

mother of all Crocks of Bullshit.

Check out the folks who are doing well, the Guru's and you'll find

most aren't doing nearly as well as you thought. I have an old pal

who was my first sponsor. He has about 40 years sober. He's a

sexual predator and has been director of many programs. Lots of

pickin's among the vulnerable women. Everyone in AA is aware of

it(Those that have known him a year or more), but AA depresses a

person's critical thinking about anything or anybody related to AA.

Thus whatever a member does is OK as long as they don't drink.

I asked my old pal who was at the time director of The County

Hospital, to help my sister in law line up some financial services

through the county. She was using a walker to get around due to

an accident that fractured both legs. She had two surgeies on both

legs and was waiting to heal up for what was to be two more

surgeries on the right leg which wasn't grafting properly. He went

to her house and hit on her for sex, no sex, no help. I went

ballistic, I had warned her he used to be a player, but never figured

he'd stoop that low. She wasn't too thrilled with me, but she and I

have worked that out. I don't speak to my old pal anymore. Rose

and I figured out how to get things done and Rose did the leg work

for her sis, but the low life bastard could have cut right through all

the red tape for her. He is approaching 70 is why I thought he had

probably mellowed, seems he got worse instead.

He's a pretty typical AA Guru, something seriously wrong besides

alcohol that goes untreated.

Most of us here have had lots of experience with these sick folks

and you won't find a lot of disagreement with what you've written.

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[Guest guest]

Hi Judith;

Dog Gone; I contract all the repairs (Vcr's, game consoles etc) for

a video rental outfit that covers three or so states. They're the

one's that take care of Grocery Stores and the like for videos and

players.

Anyway, shouldn't be too dificult to find a copy of " The

Fountainhead "

I have some players to go back tomorrow and will check

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[Guest guest]

Hi Carol;

Love your posts, but I'm not an articulated typist, strictly hunt,

peck and backspace, so I find it a bit difficult to keep up.

I can't see anything wrong with the use of movies, except in

treatment you're charged 50 dollars to watch one you could rent for

99 cents at ET Video. Also the person has to realize they won't

get results in two hours.

Then again, what about " The AA is The Only Way " message of

" Days of Wine and Roses " ?

In treatment I got charged for watching " The Velvetine Rabbit " and

Father s Chalk Talk " and probably ten other Bradshaw type

videos. There was at least one video per day, sometimes two and

they charged us eight thousand three hundred, plus medical for two

weeks. My bill was over 11 thousand, because they ran me

through a bunch of diagnostic stuff that had been done by my

doctor only three months previously. I asked them not to TB test

me because I've had TB twice and get a raging positive, even after

drug therapy. They did it over my objection and I was screwed up

for three days with swelling in my left arm and shoulder. However I

still had to do all the stuff including playing volleyball with one arm

and shoulder swelled so badly they were difficult to move. I too

late realized I was dealing with Quacks in a major hospital, but quit

cooperating. They graduated me anyway. It was Hell Week that

lasted two weeks. Later when I began drinking Rose wanted me to

go back, I did but checked out two days later. They had Rose

believing I was going to die and it was her fault for not having me

comitted. Rose turned suicidal and wound up in Lutheran's Mental

Unit and then a thirty day codependecy treatment, also 12step

based.

Rose finally got truly out from under 12steps two years ago, when

she finally trusted after 6 years+ that it " Appeared " I was going to

stay sober. I came to that conclusion at one month out of AA

when the urge to drink went south and has never came back. It

was constant while in AA.

Rose quit meetings the same time I did, knew all the sick people

we had met, but just took longer to break the 12step thinking, or at

least to decide it was unhealthy.

I imagine the Clancy people are much like we were, but took a

different path to save themselves. Instead of facing the guilt horror

of getting out, they went to a smaller better defined womb, and only

feel the guilt of their former " Too Liberal " AA experience. One day

they might have to face that they picked the greater evil, but

probably not till Clancy dies.

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[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thankyou for the reply to my " angry " letter. I just tapped into this forum

yesterday and could have used it 8 years ago!

Bless you,

Leigh

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I am curious how most people who finally " feel " free from the chains of AA,

handle running into the " people, Places, and Thing's " encountered in aa?

For I have been ignored in a market, at the park, and any public outing when

I run into a member.

Would love to hear some comments about this.

Leigh

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[Guest guest]

Thankyou ,

Your reply Means a lot. I too, am just beginning to " Believe in myself " and

Trust my own Decisions.

For so long, I didn't dare make one, without running it through my sponsor,

who always found a way to make me " wrong, " and she was always making me

" analyze my 'Motives'!

Therefore, I thought I had NO creditability for anything.

Now all I want to believe, is " It IS OK to LIVE! " and that " Things just are

the way they are sometimes " like it or not, and I am not always responsible

for all the circumstances around me, but I am responsible as to how I choose

to work through them.

In the rooms of AA I never felt like this.

Once again, I am extremely grateful to have found this " safe " Place.

Blessings,

Leigh

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Hi

I posted recently how Rand created a cult of her own. I'm certainly not a

fan of her political views (laissez-faire capitalism and no welfare state)

but it's certaibyl true to say that they fit very well with the

ultra-individualist American culture.

Pete

> Hi :

> Ayn Rand who wrote the book " The Fountainhead " was actually discussed

> on this list several months ago. Seems that her writing & philosophies

> make great AA detox material, and I do have an Ayn Rand link on my

> site. I perused the book but it looks really fat with tiny print, and

> I'm not in the mood right now. Maybe the film would be an adequate

> substitute.

> Apple

> >

> > I also watched a video on the 4th. that I believe would appeal to most

> > of you free thinkers. It 's called " The Fountainhead " (B & W 1949) with

> > . It's a movie that honors the individual and the

> indomitable

> > human spirit, and I always come away feeling vindicated of my AA

> > indignities after watching it. I get a similar feeling when I read all

> > of your posts. This film is one of the many things that inspired my

> > departure from AA. It's available for rent at many Video Stores. I'd

> > love to hear your opinions if you should happen to give it a shot.

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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> FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program.

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>

Pete

----------------------

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To Change the Things I Can Not Accept

PERSONALITY DISORDERS SUPPORT/INFO LIST:

http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/personality-disorders.html

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[Guest guest]

When I see anyone from AA I run as fast as I can. My mind is still to fresh

and I work on deprogramming everyday. All I need is some moron from the

rooms to start sloganing me. You know whats funny, though, I see alot more

people that I used to party with, and I am not afraid of them. I find them

alot less corerrsive then groupers!!!

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[Guest guest]

It is interesting that the family counsellors are now using movies to help

people find their identities. In the Vancouver Sun this morning (front

page) they surveyed family counsellors and found 90% use movies with their

patients. " It's a Wonderful Life " for those who think life is about

materialism, " Singles " for those who compromise themselves for love, " Wild

Strawberries " for those conflicted over internal image and external

persona, etc. There is a book about this, " Rent Two Films and Call Me In

the Morning " by Hesley and several professional journal articles have

begun to crop up with titles such as " Us of a Horror Film In Psychotherapy "

and What is This Movie Doing in the Psychoanalytic Session? " Maybe someone

can find these on the web? Sounds like what works for me. I saw Drunks with

Faye Dunnaway, and Clalissta Flockhart and would think it

therapy for those stuck in AA. It shows the innanity and circular no where

state of the process.

Carol

Http://www.bcrecovernet.org is the right link.

At 02:20 AM 7/5/99 -0700, you wrote:

>Hi Judith,

>

>I was just enjoying rereading this post of yours, and it made me think

>of something I copied for myself off of the RR website. Here it is.

>

>A Group places its own interests above the well-being of it's members.

>Groups must have sustained, growing membership, or they falter and cease

>to exist. Recovery groups thrive upon the dependence of addicted people

>who seek the implicit moral absolution of similarly troubled people who

>desire to procrastinate the painful decision to cease and desist from

>further use of alcohol and drugs. For this reprieve, they exchange their

>autonomy and identities as free people.

>

>I also watched a video on the 4th. that I believe would appeal to most

>of you free thinkers. It 's called " The Fountainhead " (B & W 1949) with

> . It's a movie that honors the individual and the indomitable

>human spirit, and I always come away feeling vindicated of my AA

>indignities after watching it. I get a similar feeling when I read all

>of your posts. This film is one of the many things that inspired my

>departure from AA. It's available for rent at many Video Stores. I'd

>love to hear your opinions if you should happen to give it a shot.

>

>

>

>Judith Stillwater wrote:

>>

>> gotta get this off my chest...

>>

>> I'm angry because I needed help specifically for depression in 1984 and

>> instead I got help for chemical dependency, even though an evaluation

showed

>> that I was not chemically dependent.

>>

>> I'm angry because no other option was made available to me at the time. At

>> that point, my depression was very treatable, but I was not given the

option

>> of specific treatment for depression (e.g., medication, therapy).

>>

>> I'm angry because the EAP (employee assistance program) counselor said,

>> " once we treat the chemical dependency, we'll treat the depression. " Then

>> the treatment for depression was a " 12 step therapist " who made me feel

>> ashamed for not finding all the answers in the 12 steps. In other words,

>> there was no treatment for the depression outside the 12 steps. In other

>> words, there was no treatment for the depression. In other words, they

lied

>> to me.

>>

>> I'm angry because, even though I didn't consciously buy what AA was

selling,

>> the message " if you disobey me you will die and go to hell " resonated with

>> what I learned as a child and has continued to affect me.

>>

>> I'm angry because even as I express this anger, part of me is saying

>> judgmentally, " self-pity: you're just feeling sorry for yourself, you're

>> blaming AA for your own mistakes and problems. "

>>

>> I'm angry. I'm not sorry or ashamed that I'm angry. I was hurt badly 15

>> years ago. I was emotionally vulnerable and I was willing to work to get

>> better. But my vulnerability and willingness to work were used to

>> manipulate me into doing what was best for the treatment facility and AA,

>> instead of what was best for me. I don't give a good goddam what their

>> intentions were; I care about the outcome, I care that I was injured when I

>> was vulnerable.

>>

>> I've tried to write this post about 3 times and discarded it each time.

>> This time it gets sent. This is really how I feel--it's not up to someone

>> else to label it for me or interpret it for me, so they can " help " me

>> " recover. " My feelings, my life, are mine. My choices are mine. My

>> perceptions are valid and I can trust myself.

>>

>> I made the choice to let go of AA in 1985. Now, I'm making the choice to

>> let go of the remnants of 12 step thinking. My pain is valid. My anger is

>> valid. My emotions are not defects of character, and I do not need to

>> become ready to have God remove them. I do not have a lifelong, incurable

>> disease that makes me different from everyone else.

>>

>> I know I'm far from perfect, and I look forward to spending the rest of my

>> life living in accordance with MY OWN beliefs. Being agnostic, I am my own

>> higher power; I have a conscience, I have the ability to tell right from

>> wrong and make good choices. Most of all, I have the ability to figure

out,

>> with the help of my friends and family and co-workers, what is good

about me

>> and what I'd like to change.

>>

>> I do hold the EAP, the treatment facility, and AA accountable for the harm

>> they did to me. I am held accountable for my mistakes; I hold others

>> accountable for theirs.

>>

>> Thanks for letting me vent.

>>

>> Judith

>>

>> _______________________________________________________

>> Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/

>>

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>>

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>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>

>

>

---

Life is a candy store.

Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at

Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org

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[Guest guest]

Don't over analyze this enjoy it for what it is. Simple God Given freedom of

choice. It's that simple.

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[Guest guest]

Hi Leigh;

Once you've left say AA and stay sober or OA and still lose weight

or any of the XA's, the people still in them wait for you to get drunk,

gain weight etc, because their belief depends on your failure.

Thus they fear you, lest you succeed and all those meetings and

grouper abuse aren't really necessary.

They really couldn't avoid me without paying more money to get

their electronics repaired, though some did take this option rather

than acknowlege me.

So with me they ptck arguments and tell me about my seven year

dry drunk(time since I left). One suggested I go to treatment, I

suggested he act his age of 42 and quit making his MOMMY clean

his room. That's extremely insulting and I intended it to be. I don't

usually treat folks that way but a 42 year old man who still lives

free off his parents and saves the 600 a week he makes is just

toooo tempting a target. Besides the fact he disgusts me. He's

the Chair of the local treatment center meeting and is Boss Hog

there.

What you have done to them is serious to them. If you stood up in

The Baptist Church and said " Jesus Christ is a myth and I can

prove it. " Well that's about what you've done in AA terms.

However, I will assure you that you can make it without the spirit

crushing and ego smashing of the 12steps and AA groups.

However, if AA is right that " Self-thought=insanity, then I'm mad as

the hatter.

Anger in regards to treatment by AA and the group is usual and

predictable, so let it hang out if you want. I still get angry and

sometimes realize I'm driving the keys like nails when writing about

some experiences regarding AA.

I didn't get a reasonably healthy attitude as quickly as has

after leaving, but I have a feeling he cribbed for a while before the

final break, while mine came the same day as the decision.

Contrary to AA it's healthy to be angry with folks that hurt you, and

anger never got anyone drunk, drinking alcohol is the cause of

drunkeness, simple, don't drink it, never be drunk, what a principle!

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[Guest guest]

Leigh, welcome to the world of conditional Love. I often think AA's

should change the phrase " Let us love you until you can love yourself "

to " Let us love you until you become like us " .

By the way, welcome to this group where you are free to be you and

question anything you please. I have enjoyed your posts and completely

relate to the relief you feel from being heard and validated for what

you believe in your heart to be true. It's a great feeling. Like waking

from some Orwellian nightmare! I just made my final break from AA on

June 13th. and am gratified to be seeing in the new Millennium in Step

Free.

When I left AA I was clear that in my decision I was going to be

ostracized, and that I was going to have to start from scratch socially.

Luckily I have been padding my friendship pool with non-AA's over the

past few years, and I still retain a handful of real friends from AA.

Mostly I find that I would have little in common with AA people anyway.

I'm done with drinking/using so I don't need to drone on about fears of

drinking or engage in endless drunkalogs. It's over.

The big challenge now is to fill all the time once spent on meetings

and spending time with people in recovery. This group has been

invaluable to me in reassembling my brain while I rebuild my Life. I've

had to tear down the old one because the foundation(12 Steps) was not

viable. It's been a philosophical Spring cleaning. I'm throwing out

anything that doesn't ring true, and learning to believe in myself

again. It's been an ongoing epiphany. I hope it all proves as rewarding

and invigorating for you as it has for me.

Marandtaz@... wrote:

>

> I am curious how most people who finally " feel " free from the chains of AA,

> handle running into the " people, Places, and Thing's " encountered in aa?

> For I have been ignored in a market, at the park, and any public outing when

> I run into a member.

> Would love to hear some comments about this.

> Leigh

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals!

> Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets

> anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368

>

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[Guest guest]

Hi Ben;

Realistically it wouldn't be too awfully surprising if suicides among

AA members were significantly higher than the general population.

I mean 175% wouldn't be remarkable since all in the group are sick

folks. However, I'd see 300% as an indicator of something

seriously wrong. I don't know what the figures are and they would

be hard to figure anyway. Guidelines and parameters would be

difficult in the extreme to set for any accuracy at all. I think

following folks with at least three months in AA who experience

trauma, physical and or emotional like accidents, divorce, death in

the family etc. Those you could compare well with the general

population because those things are unrelated to drinking. If AA

works as advertised the AA folks should have a lower suicide rate

in those situations than the general population or the great

unwashed. AA's have a built in support system so they should

objectively speaking do better in than average. I doubt if they do.

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[Guest guest]

Hi Pete,

I certainly wasn't suggesting that anybody get caught up in Rand's whole

trip or anyone else's for that matter. The video proved helpful to me in

the self empowerment dept. after years of submission to the powerless AA

mindset.

The film champions the individual, and after years of having my health

and well being subordinated to the group, it breathed life back into my

desiccated self -image and kept me going until I found you guys.

Pete Watts wrote:

>

> Hi

>

> I posted recently how Rand created a cult of her own. I'm certainly not a

> fan of her political views (laissez-faire capitalism and no welfare state)

> but it's certaibyl true to say that they fit very well with the

> ultra-individualist American culture.

>

> Pete

>

>

>

> > Hi :

> > Ayn Rand who wrote the book " The Fountainhead " was actually discussed

> > on this list several months ago. Seems that her writing & philosophies

> > make great AA detox material, and I do have an Ayn Rand link on my

> > site. I perused the book but it looks really fat with tiny print, and

> > I'm not in the mood right now. Maybe the film would be an adequate

> > substitute.

> > Apple

> > >

> > > I also watched a video on the 4th. that I believe would appeal to most

> > > of you free thinkers. It 's called " The Fountainhead " (B & W 1949) with

> > > . It's a movie that honors the individual and the

> > indomitable

> > > human spirit, and I always come away feeling vindicated of my AA

> > > indignities after watching it. I get a similar feeling when I read all

> > > of your posts. This film is one of the many things that inspired my

> > > departure from AA. It's available for rent at many Video Stores. I'd

> > > love to hear your opinions if you should happen to give it a shot.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Click Here to apply for a NextCard Internet Visa and start earning

> > FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program.

> > http://clickhere./click/449

> >

> >

> >

> > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> > - Simplifying group communications

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Pete

> ----------------------

> Grant me the Strength

> To Change the Things I Can Not Accept

>

> PERSONALITY DISORDERS SUPPORT/INFO LIST:

> http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/personality-disorders.html

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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