Re: I'm angry

[Guest guest]

> Hi Judith,

>

> I resemble those remarks. I was suicidally depressed my whole first year

in AA. I was also led to believe that the steps would take care of the

depression. AA zealots declared medication for depression off limits. I

substituted the one day at a time plan for one year at a time. I figured I'd

stay sober a year and if it didn't get any better I could kill myself then.

It is a miracle I survived.<

My heart goes out to you. Treatment and AA brought on my first serious

suicidal ideation, obsessive and uncontrollable thoughts of killing myself.

That was AA's gift to me.

>I was truly in agony and given how badly I felt, I feel like I am living

proof that there is absolutely nothing that can make a person drink/use

against their will. <

This is a very good point. Wow...this is a REALLY good point.

>To add insult to injury, I was constantly being brushed off with the phrase

" You're right where you're supposed to be. " I often yearned for the day that

I would find one of these wise old timers pinned beneath their car after the

jack had collapsed, so I could utter the same time worn phrase that had been

so freely given to me. <

LOL!!!!! Thanks for an image that brings a smile to my face!

Judith

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[Guest guest]

> Hi Judith,

>

> I resemble those remarks. I was suicidally depressed my whole first year

in AA. I was also led to believe that the steps would take care of the

depression. AA zealots declared medication for depression off limits. I

substituted the one day at a time plan for one year at a time. I figured I'd

stay sober a year and if it didn't get any better I could kill myself then.

It is a miracle I survived.<

My heart goes out to you. Treatment and AA brought on my first serious

suicidal ideation, obsessive and uncontrollable thoughts of killing myself.

That was AA's gift to me.

>I was truly in agony and given how badly I felt, I feel like I am living

proof that there is absolutely nothing that can make a person drink/use

against their will. <

This is a very good point. Wow...this is a REALLY good point.

>To add insult to injury, I was constantly being brushed off with the phrase

" You're right where you're supposed to be. " I often yearned for the day that

I would find one of these wise old timers pinned beneath their car after the

jack had collapsed, so I could utter the same time worn phrase that had been

so freely given to me. <

LOL!!!!! Thanks for an image that brings a smile to my face!

Judith

_______________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

> I hope that you will become part of the class action suite which Rational

Recovery is developing for people who are abused within the system. If there

is a pay out it will bankrupt the addictions industry of the gov't.<

I'd like to find out more about it--I've got the RR website bookmarked, so

I'll check it out.

> What a ridiculous bunch of nutcases you ran into. Sorry for your pain and

madness. I hope you are mad enough to take action. This MUST stop!>

Thanks, Carol. I totally agree that this must stop.

Judith

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[Guest guest]

> I hope that you will become part of the class action suite which Rational

Recovery is developing for people who are abused within the system. If there

is a pay out it will bankrupt the addictions industry of the gov't.<

I'd like to find out more about it--I've got the RR website bookmarked, so

I'll check it out.

> What a ridiculous bunch of nutcases you ran into. Sorry for your pain and

madness. I hope you are mad enough to take action. This MUST stop!>

Thanks, Carol. I totally agree that this must stop.

Judith

_______________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

As well you should be, Judith!! I am here to tell you that the same shitty

stuff is happening right here in 1999. My husband went to hisDr. yesterday a

shrink an MD! and told him what he had been learning about the real AA and

all the guy said, first and foremost your drinking must be dealt with and my

husband said I haven't drank in 5 years and I astill can't leave the house.

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[Guest guest]

Hi Judith,

I resemble those remarks. I was suicidally depressed my whole first year

in AA. I was also led to believe that the steps would take care of the

depression. AA zealots declared medication for depression off limits. I

substituted the one day at a time plan for one year at a time. I figured

I'd stay sober a year and if it didn't get any better I could kill

myself then. It is a miracle I survived. I was truly in agony and given

how badly I felt, I feel like I am living proof that there is absolutely

nothing that can make a person drink/use against their will. To add

insult to injury, I was constantly being brushed off with the phrase

" You're right where you're supposed to be. " I often yearned for the day

that I would find one of these wise old timers pinned beneath their car

after the jack had collapsed, so I could utter the same time worn phrase

that had been so freely given to me.

Judith Stillwater wrote:

>

> gotta get this off my chest...

>

> I'm angry because I needed help specifically for depression in 1984 and

> instead I got help for chemical dependency, even though an evaluation showed

> that I was not chemically dependent.

>

> I'm angry because no other option was made available to me at the time. At

> that point, my depression was very treatable, but I was not given the option

> of specific treatment for depression (e.g., medication, therapy).

>

> I'm angry because the EAP (employee assistance program) counselor said,

> " once we treat the chemical dependency, we'll treat the depression. " Then

> the treatment for depression was a " 12 step therapist " who made me feel

> ashamed for not finding all the answers in the 12 steps. In other words,

> there was no treatment for the depression outside the 12 steps. In other

> words, there was no treatment for the depression. In other words, they lied

> to me.

>

> I'm angry because, even though I didn't consciously buy what AA was selling,

> the message " if you disobey me you will die and go to hell " resonated with

> what I learned as a child and has continued to affect me.

>

> I'm angry because even as I express this anger, part of me is saying

> judgmentally, " self-pity: you're just feeling sorry for yourself, you're

> blaming AA for your own mistakes and problems. "

>

> I'm angry. I'm not sorry or ashamed that I'm angry. I was hurt badly 15

> years ago. I was emotionally vulnerable and I was willing to work to get

> better. But my vulnerability and willingness to work were used to

> manipulate me into doing what was best for the treatment facility and AA,

> instead of what was best for me. I don't give a good goddam what their

> intentions were; I care about the outcome, I care that I was injured when I

> was vulnerable.

>

> I've tried to write this post about 3 times and discarded it each time.

> This time it gets sent. This is really how I feel--it's not up to someone

> else to label it for me or interpret it for me, so they can " help " me

> " recover. " My feelings, my life, are mine. My choices are mine. My

> perceptions are valid and I can trust myself.

>

> I made the choice to let go of AA in 1985. Now, I'm making the choice to

> let go of the remnants of 12 step thinking. My pain is valid. My anger is

> valid. My emotions are not defects of character, and I do not need to

> become ready to have God remove them. I do not have a lifelong, incurable

> disease that makes me different from everyone else.

>

> I know I'm far from perfect, and I look forward to spending the rest of my

> life living in accordance with MY OWN beliefs. Being agnostic, I am my own

> higher power; I have a conscience, I have the ability to tell right from

> wrong and make good choices. Most of all, I have the ability to figure out,

> with the help of my friends and family and co-workers, what is good about me

> and what I'd like to change.

>

> I do hold the EAP, the treatment facility, and AA accountable for the harm

> they did to me. I am held accountable for my mistakes; I hold others

> accountable for theirs.

>

> Thanks for letting me vent.

>

> Judith

>

> _______________________________________________________

> Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals!

> Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets

> anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

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[Guest guest]

Hi Judith,

I resemble those remarks. I was suicidally depressed my whole first year

in AA. I was also led to believe that the steps would take care of the

depression. AA zealots declared medication for depression off limits. I

substituted the one day at a time plan for one year at a time. I figured

I'd stay sober a year and if it didn't get any better I could kill

myself then. It is a miracle I survived. I was truly in agony and given

how badly I felt, I feel like I am living proof that there is absolutely

nothing that can make a person drink/use against their will. To add

insult to injury, I was constantly being brushed off with the phrase

" You're right where you're supposed to be. " I often yearned for the day

that I would find one of these wise old timers pinned beneath their car

after the jack had collapsed, so I could utter the same time worn phrase

that had been so freely given to me.

Judith Stillwater wrote:

>

> gotta get this off my chest...

>

> I'm angry because I needed help specifically for depression in 1984 and

> instead I got help for chemical dependency, even though an evaluation showed

> that I was not chemically dependent.

>

> I'm angry because no other option was made available to me at the time. At

> that point, my depression was very treatable, but I was not given the option

> of specific treatment for depression (e.g., medication, therapy).

>

> I'm angry because the EAP (employee assistance program) counselor said,

> " once we treat the chemical dependency, we'll treat the depression. " Then

> the treatment for depression was a " 12 step therapist " who made me feel

> ashamed for not finding all the answers in the 12 steps. In other words,

> there was no treatment for the depression outside the 12 steps. In other

> words, there was no treatment for the depression. In other words, they lied

> to me.

>

> I'm angry because, even though I didn't consciously buy what AA was selling,

> the message " if you disobey me you will die and go to hell " resonated with

> what I learned as a child and has continued to affect me.

>

> I'm angry because even as I express this anger, part of me is saying

> judgmentally, " self-pity: you're just feeling sorry for yourself, you're

> blaming AA for your own mistakes and problems. "

>

> I'm angry. I'm not sorry or ashamed that I'm angry. I was hurt badly 15

> years ago. I was emotionally vulnerable and I was willing to work to get

> better. But my vulnerability and willingness to work were used to

> manipulate me into doing what was best for the treatment facility and AA,

> instead of what was best for me. I don't give a good goddam what their

> intentions were; I care about the outcome, I care that I was injured when I

> was vulnerable.

>

> I've tried to write this post about 3 times and discarded it each time.

> This time it gets sent. This is really how I feel--it's not up to someone

> else to label it for me or interpret it for me, so they can " help " me

> " recover. " My feelings, my life, are mine. My choices are mine. My

> perceptions are valid and I can trust myself.

>

> I made the choice to let go of AA in 1985. Now, I'm making the choice to

> let go of the remnants of 12 step thinking. My pain is valid. My anger is

> valid. My emotions are not defects of character, and I do not need to

> become ready to have God remove them. I do not have a lifelong, incurable

> disease that makes me different from everyone else.

>

> I know I'm far from perfect, and I look forward to spending the rest of my

> life living in accordance with MY OWN beliefs. Being agnostic, I am my own

> higher power; I have a conscience, I have the ability to tell right from

> wrong and make good choices. Most of all, I have the ability to figure out,

> with the help of my friends and family and co-workers, what is good about me

> and what I'd like to change.

>

> I do hold the EAP, the treatment facility, and AA accountable for the harm

> they did to me. I am held accountable for my mistakes; I hold others

> accountable for theirs.

>

> Thanks for letting me vent.

>

> Judith

>

> _______________________________________________________

> Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals!

> Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets

> anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

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[Guest guest]

Tsk Tsk , It's not Sober to wish that a car collapses on your old AA

cronies....

(unless of course, my ex-sponsors are under the car too)

I mentioned the " you're just where you're supposed to be " bullshit in one of the

essays on the deprogramming site). A friend of mine was suicidally depressed,

and one of the BB Thumpers told her the same thing. This MF has recently gotten

his certificate to be a drug & alcohol counsellor. I remember him telling me in

early recovery when I was weak and distressed and had been abused that I

shouldn't feel angry. Anger would just lead to relapse which would lead to

jails, institutions or death.

I have never felt suicidal myself, but self-abusive yes. I'd punish myself for

being inadequate. If a boyfriend would treat me badly, I'd stop eating. I'd

abuse my body for not being good enough. What cured my impulse to self-abuse,

was shifting it around mentally. Exactly what you have done in your post with

the sponsor under the car example! If someone treats me badly, I think about or

verbally express my desire to give em a taste of their own medicine. I don't

act on it of course, and I do try to get them out of my life ASAP. The big

flashing neon " Abuse Me " has been removed from my forehead. I try not to take

shit anymore. It's easy to take shit when I'm feeling weak, but I try my best to

take care of myself so I don't spend a lot of time feeling vulnerable. If my

taking the focus off them and putting it on me offends some people, well, " too

bad, so sad " . Sometimes it's a good thing to not have the approval of certain

people. For sure, I wouldn't seek approval from a Klu-Klux-Klansman, or Jim

Baker the TV evangelist. It's very liberating not to seek approval, and I think

people respect me more.

Apple

> Hi Judith,

>

> I resemble those remarks. I was suicidally depressed my whole first year

> in AA. I was also led to believe that the steps would take care of the

> depression. AA zealots declared medication for depression off limits. I

> substituted the one day at a time plan for one year at a time. I figured

> I'd stay sober a year and if it didn't get any better I could kill

> myself then. It is a miracle I survived. I was truly in agony and given

> how badly I felt, I feel like I am living proof that there is absolutely

> nothing that can make a person drink/use against their will. To add

> insult to injury, I was constantly being brushed off with the phrase

> " You're right where you're supposed to be. " I often yearned for the day

> that I would find one of these wise old timers pinned beneath their car

> after the jack had collapsed, so I could utter the same time worn phrase

> that had been so freely given to me.

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Tsk Tsk , It's not Sober to wish that a car collapses on your old AA

cronies....

(unless of course, my ex-sponsors are under the car too)

I mentioned the " you're just where you're supposed to be " bullshit in one of the

essays on the deprogramming site). A friend of mine was suicidally depressed,

and one of the BB Thumpers told her the same thing. This MF has recently gotten

his certificate to be a drug & alcohol counsellor. I remember him telling me in

early recovery when I was weak and distressed and had been abused that I

shouldn't feel angry. Anger would just lead to relapse which would lead to

jails, institutions or death.

I have never felt suicidal myself, but self-abusive yes. I'd punish myself for

being inadequate. If a boyfriend would treat me badly, I'd stop eating. I'd

abuse my body for not being good enough. What cured my impulse to self-abuse,

was shifting it around mentally. Exactly what you have done in your post with

the sponsor under the car example! If someone treats me badly, I think about or

verbally express my desire to give em a taste of their own medicine. I don't

act on it of course, and I do try to get them out of my life ASAP. The big

flashing neon " Abuse Me " has been removed from my forehead. I try not to take

shit anymore. It's easy to take shit when I'm feeling weak, but I try my best to

take care of myself so I don't spend a lot of time feeling vulnerable. If my

taking the focus off them and putting it on me offends some people, well, " too

bad, so sad " . Sometimes it's a good thing to not have the approval of certain

people. For sure, I wouldn't seek approval from a Klu-Klux-Klansman, or Jim

Baker the TV evangelist. It's very liberating not to seek approval, and I think

people respect me more.

Apple

> Hi Judith,

>

> I resemble those remarks. I was suicidally depressed my whole first year

> in AA. I was also led to believe that the steps would take care of the

> depression. AA zealots declared medication for depression off limits. I

> substituted the one day at a time plan for one year at a time. I figured

> I'd stay sober a year and if it didn't get any better I could kill

> myself then. It is a miracle I survived. I was truly in agony and given

> how badly I felt, I feel like I am living proof that there is absolutely

> nothing that can make a person drink/use against their will. To add

> insult to injury, I was constantly being brushed off with the phrase

> " You're right where you're supposed to be. " I often yearned for the day

> that I would find one of these wise old timers pinned beneath their car

> after the jack had collapsed, so I could utter the same time worn phrase

> that had been so freely given to me.

>

>

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[Guest guest]

I hope that you will become part of the class action suite which Rational

Recovery is developing for people who are abused within the system. If

there is a pay out it will bankrupt the addictions industry of the gov't.

What a ridiculous bunch of nutcases you ran into. Sorry for your pain and

madness. I hope you are mad enough to take action. This MUST stop!

Carol

At 09:05 AM 7/3/99 PDT, you wrote:

>gotta get this off my chest...

>

>I'm angry because I needed help specifically for depression in 1984 and

>instead I got help for chemical dependency, even though an evaluation showed

>that I was not chemically dependent.

>

>I'm angry because no other option was made available to me at the time. At

>that point, my depression was very treatable, but I was not given the option

>of specific treatment for depression (e.g., medication, therapy).

>

>I'm angry because the EAP (employee assistance program) counselor said,

> " once we treat the chemical dependency, we'll treat the depression. " Then

>the treatment for depression was a " 12 step therapist " who made me feel

>ashamed for not finding all the answers in the 12 steps. In other words,

>there was no treatment for the depression outside the 12 steps. In other

>words, there was no treatment for the depression. In other words, they lied

>to me.

>

>I'm angry because, even though I didn't consciously buy what AA was selling,

>the message " if you disobey me you will die and go to hell " resonated with

>what I learned as a child and has continued to affect me.

>

>I'm angry because even as I express this anger, part of me is saying

>judgmentally, " self-pity: you're just feeling sorry for yourself, you're

>blaming AA for your own mistakes and problems. "

>

>I'm angry. I'm not sorry or ashamed that I'm angry. I was hurt badly 15

>years ago. I was emotionally vulnerable and I was willing to work to get

>better. But my vulnerability and willingness to work were used to

>manipulate me into doing what was best for the treatment facility and AA,

>instead of what was best for me. I don't give a good goddam what their

>intentions were; I care about the outcome, I care that I was injured when I

>was vulnerable.

>

>I've tried to write this post about 3 times and discarded it each time.

>This time it gets sent. This is really how I feel--it's not up to someone

>else to label it for me or interpret it for me, so they can " help " me

> " recover. " My feelings, my life, are mine. My choices are mine. My

>perceptions are valid and I can trust myself.

>

>I made the choice to let go of AA in 1985. Now, I'm making the choice to

>let go of the remnants of 12 step thinking. My pain is valid. My anger is

>valid. My emotions are not defects of character, and I do not need to

>become ready to have God remove them. I do not have a lifelong, incurable

>disease that makes me different from everyone else.

>

>I know I'm far from perfect, and I look forward to spending the rest of my

>life living in accordance with MY OWN beliefs. Being agnostic, I am my own

>higher power; I have a conscience, I have the ability to tell right from

>wrong and make good choices. Most of all, I have the ability to figure out,

>with the help of my friends and family and co-workers, what is good about me

>and what I'd like to change.

>

>I do hold the EAP, the treatment facility, and AA accountable for the harm

>they did to me. I am held accountable for my mistakes; I hold others

>accountable for theirs.

>

>Thanks for letting me vent.

>

>Judith

>

>

>

>

>_______________________________________________________

>Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals!

>Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets

>anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

---

Life is a candy store.

Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at

Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

I hope that you will become part of the class action suite which Rational

Recovery is developing for people who are abused within the system. If

there is a pay out it will bankrupt the addictions industry of the gov't.

What a ridiculous bunch of nutcases you ran into. Sorry for your pain and

madness. I hope you are mad enough to take action. This MUST stop!

Carol

At 09:05 AM 7/3/99 PDT, you wrote:

>gotta get this off my chest...

>

>I'm angry because I needed help specifically for depression in 1984 and

>instead I got help for chemical dependency, even though an evaluation showed

>that I was not chemically dependent.

>

>I'm angry because no other option was made available to me at the time. At

>that point, my depression was very treatable, but I was not given the option

>of specific treatment for depression (e.g., medication, therapy).

>

>I'm angry because the EAP (employee assistance program) counselor said,

> " once we treat the chemical dependency, we'll treat the depression. " Then

>the treatment for depression was a " 12 step therapist " who made me feel

>ashamed for not finding all the answers in the 12 steps. In other words,

>there was no treatment for the depression outside the 12 steps. In other

>words, there was no treatment for the depression. In other words, they lied

>to me.

>

>I'm angry because, even though I didn't consciously buy what AA was selling,

>the message " if you disobey me you will die and go to hell " resonated with

>what I learned as a child and has continued to affect me.

>

>I'm angry because even as I express this anger, part of me is saying

>judgmentally, " self-pity: you're just feeling sorry for yourself, you're

>blaming AA for your own mistakes and problems. "

>

>I'm angry. I'm not sorry or ashamed that I'm angry. I was hurt badly 15

>years ago. I was emotionally vulnerable and I was willing to work to get

>better. But my vulnerability and willingness to work were used to

>manipulate me into doing what was best for the treatment facility and AA,

>instead of what was best for me. I don't give a good goddam what their

>intentions were; I care about the outcome, I care that I was injured when I

>was vulnerable.

>

>I've tried to write this post about 3 times and discarded it each time.

>This time it gets sent. This is really how I feel--it's not up to someone

>else to label it for me or interpret it for me, so they can " help " me

> " recover. " My feelings, my life, are mine. My choices are mine. My

>perceptions are valid and I can trust myself.

>

>I made the choice to let go of AA in 1985. Now, I'm making the choice to

>let go of the remnants of 12 step thinking. My pain is valid. My anger is

>valid. My emotions are not defects of character, and I do not need to

>become ready to have God remove them. I do not have a lifelong, incurable

>disease that makes me different from everyone else.

>

>I know I'm far from perfect, and I look forward to spending the rest of my

>life living in accordance with MY OWN beliefs. Being agnostic, I am my own

>higher power; I have a conscience, I have the ability to tell right from

>wrong and make good choices. Most of all, I have the ability to figure out,

>with the help of my friends and family and co-workers, what is good about me

>and what I'd like to change.

>

>I do hold the EAP, the treatment facility, and AA accountable for the harm

>they did to me. I am held accountable for my mistakes; I hold others

>accountable for theirs.

>

>Thanks for letting me vent.

>

>Judith

>

>

>

>

>_______________________________________________________

>Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals!

>Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets

>anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

---

Life is a candy store.

Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at

Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

At 09:05 AM 7/3/99 PDT, you wrote:

>gotta get this off my chest...

>

>I'm angry because I needed help specifically for depression in 1984 and

>instead I got help for chemical dependency, even though an evaluation showed

>that I was not chemically dependent.

>

>I'm angry because no other option was made available to me at the time. At

>that point, my depression was very treatable, but I was not given the option

>of specific treatment for depression (e.g., medication, therapy).

I would say that this is totally insane- except that saying so reflects

badly on insane people.

This is like seeing a doctor for a heart condition and him saying we need

to treat your broken leg first- then we'll treat your heart problem. You

say- but I haven't got a broken leg!- and the doctor smiles knowingly and

says- you'll see.

The saddest part of this, apart that is from the obvious nonsense of this

type of " treatment " is that the highly dysfunctional ideas of

powerlessness, surrender and incurable disease embodied in the steps are

likly to cause or exacerbate depression rather than treat it.

Joe Berenbaum

mailto:joe-b@...

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[Guest guest]

At 09:05 AM 7/3/99 PDT, you wrote:

>gotta get this off my chest...

>

>I'm angry because I needed help specifically for depression in 1984 and

>instead I got help for chemical dependency, even though an evaluation showed

>that I was not chemically dependent.

>

>I'm angry because no other option was made available to me at the time. At

>that point, my depression was very treatable, but I was not given the option

>of specific treatment for depression (e.g., medication, therapy).

I would say that this is totally insane- except that saying so reflects

badly on insane people.

This is like seeing a doctor for a heart condition and him saying we need

to treat your broken leg first- then we'll treat your heart problem. You

say- but I haven't got a broken leg!- and the doctor smiles knowingly and

says- you'll see.

The saddest part of this, apart that is from the obvious nonsense of this

type of " treatment " is that the highly dysfunctional ideas of

powerlessness, surrender and incurable disease embodied in the steps are

likly to cause or exacerbate depression rather than treat it.

Joe Berenbaum

mailto:joe-b@...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Apple,

I didn't realize that the RR class action suit applied to depression

related abuses as well. I'll have to look into it.

Anger, the forbidden emotion, can certainly bring about positive results

when channeled appropriately as is evidenced by the creation of RR and

the AADeprogramming Website. I just love the AADeprogramming Website

and the sense of humor it employs. Is it your creation? I think it

would be great to assemble a collection of high quality cartoon images

depicting the many injustices, lies, and absurdities of the 12 step

phenomenon. Humor can be such an effective means of communication

especially when dealing with a sacred cow like AA. It's so easy for

those self righteous step nazis to peg us as a bunch of angry, humorless

refuseniks. I still believe that laughter is the most effective medicine

and living well the best revenge.

AppleDTP@... wrote:

>

> Tsk Tsk , It's not Sober to wish that a car collapses on your old AA

cronies....

> (unless of course, my ex-sponsors are under the car too)

> I mentioned the " you're just where you're supposed to be " bullshit in one of

the essays on the deprogramming site). A friend of mine was suicidally

depressed, and one of the BB Thumpers told her the same thing. This MF has

recently gotten his certificate to be a drug & alcohol counsellor. I remember

him telling me in early recovery when I was weak and distressed and had been

abused that I shouldn't feel angry. Anger would just lead to relapse which would

lead to jails, institutions or death.

>

> I have never felt suicidal myself, but self-abusive yes. I'd punish myself for

being inadequate. If a boyfriend would treat me badly, I'd stop eating. I'd

abuse my body for not being good enough. What cured my impulse to self-abuse,

was shifting it around mentally. Exactly what you have done in your post with

the sponsor under the car example! If someone treats me badly, I think about or

verbally express my desire to give em a taste of their own medicine. I don't

act on it of course, and I do try to get them out of my life ASAP. The big

flashing neon " Abuse Me " has been removed from my forehead. I try not to take

shit anymore. It's easy to take shit when I'm feeling weak, but I try my best to

take care of myself so I don't spend a lot of time feeling vulnerable. If my

taking the focus off them and putting it on me offends some people, well, " too

bad, so sad " . Sometimes it's a good thing to not have the approval of certain

people. For sure, I wouldn't seek approval from a Klu-Klux-Klansman, or Jim

Baker the TV evangelist. It's very liberating not to seek approval, and I think

people respect me more.

> Apple

>

> > Hi Judith,

> >

> > I resemble those remarks. I was suicidally depressed my whole first year

> > in AA. I was also led to believe that the steps would take care of the

> > depression. AA zealots declared medication for depression off limits. I

> > substituted the one day at a time plan for one year at a time. I figured

> > I'd stay sober a year and if it didn't get any better I could kill

> > myself then. It is a miracle I survived. I was truly in agony and given

> > how badly I felt, I feel like I am living proof that there is absolutely

> > nothing that can make a person drink/use against their will. To add

> > insult to injury, I was constantly being brushed off with the phrase

> > " You're right where you're supposed to be. " I often yearned for the day

> > that I would find one of these wise old timers pinned beneath their car

> > after the jack had collapsed, so I could utter the same time worn phrase

> > that had been so freely given to me.

> >

> >

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals!

> Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets

> anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Apple,

I didn't realize that the RR class action suit applied to depression

related abuses as well. I'll have to look into it.

Anger, the forbidden emotion, can certainly bring about positive results

when channeled appropriately as is evidenced by the creation of RR and

the AADeprogramming Website. I just love the AADeprogramming Website

and the sense of humor it employs. Is it your creation? I think it

would be great to assemble a collection of high quality cartoon images

depicting the many injustices, lies, and absurdities of the 12 step

phenomenon. Humor can be such an effective means of communication

especially when dealing with a sacred cow like AA. It's so easy for

those self righteous step nazis to peg us as a bunch of angry, humorless

refuseniks. I still believe that laughter is the most effective medicine

and living well the best revenge.

AppleDTP@... wrote:

>

> Tsk Tsk , It's not Sober to wish that a car collapses on your old AA

cronies....

> (unless of course, my ex-sponsors are under the car too)

> I mentioned the " you're just where you're supposed to be " bullshit in one of

the essays on the deprogramming site). A friend of mine was suicidally

depressed, and one of the BB Thumpers told her the same thing. This MF has

recently gotten his certificate to be a drug & alcohol counsellor. I remember

him telling me in early recovery when I was weak and distressed and had been

abused that I shouldn't feel angry. Anger would just lead to relapse which would

lead to jails, institutions or death.

>

> I have never felt suicidal myself, but self-abusive yes. I'd punish myself for

being inadequate. If a boyfriend would treat me badly, I'd stop eating. I'd

abuse my body for not being good enough. What cured my impulse to self-abuse,

was shifting it around mentally. Exactly what you have done in your post with

the sponsor under the car example! If someone treats me badly, I think about or

verbally express my desire to give em a taste of their own medicine. I don't

act on it of course, and I do try to get them out of my life ASAP. The big

flashing neon " Abuse Me " has been removed from my forehead. I try not to take

shit anymore. It's easy to take shit when I'm feeling weak, but I try my best to

take care of myself so I don't spend a lot of time feeling vulnerable. If my

taking the focus off them and putting it on me offends some people, well, " too

bad, so sad " . Sometimes it's a good thing to not have the approval of certain

people. For sure, I wouldn't seek approval from a Klu-Klux-Klansman, or Jim

Baker the TV evangelist. It's very liberating not to seek approval, and I think

people respect me more.

> Apple

>

> > Hi Judith,

> >

> > I resemble those remarks. I was suicidally depressed my whole first year

> > in AA. I was also led to believe that the steps would take care of the

> > depression. AA zealots declared medication for depression off limits. I

> > substituted the one day at a time plan for one year at a time. I figured

> > I'd stay sober a year and if it didn't get any better I could kill

> > myself then. It is a miracle I survived. I was truly in agony and given

> > how badly I felt, I feel like I am living proof that there is absolutely

> > nothing that can make a person drink/use against their will. To add

> > insult to injury, I was constantly being brushed off with the phrase

> > " You're right where you're supposed to be. " I often yearned for the day

> > that I would find one of these wise old timers pinned beneath their car

> > after the jack had collapsed, so I could utter the same time worn phrase

> > that had been so freely given to me.

> >

> >

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals!

> Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets

> anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368

>

> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Abuse occurs when people are suffering a mental illness and are sent to AA.

That AA is used as treatment for depression is an abomination. RR is on the

case. I'm thinking of collecting horror stories for Canada so that when the

group of victims of AA are combined we too can do class action. At the

meeting of RR last night one nurse was told by the primere addictions and

media specialist who is a staunch 12 stomper that if she didn't take this

" counselling " she would DIE! Now there's client efficacy for you. $$$ for

Healthquest and Dr. Ray Baker.

Wipe out the whole crazy industry. On the ADDMED one fellow is pleading

with another to include anon. for tobacco addiction conference. I wrote him

and said that I hope he will use effective programs rather than the AA and

its focus on failures at quitting rather than successes.

Carol

At 12:21 PM 7/3/99 -0700, you wrote:

>

>Apple,

>

>I didn't realize that the RR class action suit applied to depression

>related abuses as well. I'll have to look into it.

>

>Anger, the forbidden emotion, can certainly bring about positive results

>when channeled appropriately as is evidenced by the creation of RR and

>the AADeprogramming Website. I just love the AADeprogramming Website

>and the sense of humor it employs. Is it your creation? I think it

>would be great to assemble a collection of high quality cartoon images

>depicting the many injustices, lies, and absurdities of the 12 step

>phenomenon. Humor can be such an effective means of communication

>especially when dealing with a sacred cow like AA. It's so easy for

>those self righteous step nazis to peg us as a bunch of angry, humorless

>refuseniks. I still believe that laughter is the most effective medicine

>and living well the best revenge.

>

>

>

>AppleDTP@... wrote:

>>

>> Tsk Tsk , It's not Sober to wish that a car collapses on your old AA

cronies....

>> (unless of course, my ex-sponsors are under the car too)

>> I mentioned the " you're just where you're supposed to be " bullshit in

one of the essays on the deprogramming site). A friend of mine was

suicidally depressed, and one of the BB Thumpers told her the same thing.

This MF has recently gotten his certificate to be a drug & alcohol

counsellor. I remember him telling me in early recovery when I was weak

and distressed and had been abused that I shouldn't feel angry. Anger would

just lead to relapse which would lead to jails, institutions or death.

>>

>> I have never felt suicidal myself, but self-abusive yes. I'd punish

myself for being inadequate. If a boyfriend would treat me badly, I'd stop

eating. I'd abuse my body for not being good enough. What cured my

impulse to self-abuse, was shifting it around mentally. Exactly what you

have done in your post with the sponsor under the car example! If someone

treats me badly, I think about or verbally express my desire to give em a

taste of their own medicine. I don't act on it of course, and I do try to

get them out of my life ASAP. The big flashing neon " Abuse Me " has been

removed from my forehead. I try not to take shit anymore. It's easy to take

shit when I'm feeling weak, but I try my best to take care of myself so I

don't spend a lot of time feeling vulnerable. If my taking the focus off

them and putting it on me offends some people, well, " too bad, so sad " .

Sometimes it's a good thing to not have the approval of certain people. For

sure, I wouldn't seek approval from a Klu-Klux-Klansman, or Jim Baker the

TV evangelist. It's very liberating not to seek approval, and I think

people respect me more.

>> Apple

>>

>> > Hi Judith,

>> >

>> > I resemble those remarks. I was suicidally depressed my whole first year

>> > in AA. I was also led to believe that the steps would take care of the

>> > depression. AA zealots declared medication for depression off limits. I

>> > substituted the one day at a time plan for one year at a time. I figured

>> > I'd stay sober a year and if it didn't get any better I could kill

>> > myself then. It is a miracle I survived. I was truly in agony and given

>> > how badly I felt, I feel like I am living proof that there is absolutely

>> > nothing that can make a person drink/use against their will. To add

>> > insult to injury, I was constantly being brushed off with the phrase

>> > " You're right where you're supposed to be. " I often yearned for the day

>> > that I would find one of these wise old timers pinned beneath their car

>> > after the jack had collapsed, so I could utter the same time worn phrase

>> > that had been so freely given to me.

>> >

>> >

>>

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals!

>> Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets

>> anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368

>>

>> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

>> - Simplifying group communications

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>eGroups Spotlight:

> " Egg and Egg Products " - There's more to eggs than eating them for

> breakfast! If you are a producer or a user this group is for you.

> http://clickhere./click/114

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

---

Life is a candy store.

Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at

Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

Abuse occurs when people are suffering a mental illness and are sent to AA.

That AA is used as treatment for depression is an abomination. RR is on the

case. I'm thinking of collecting horror stories for Canada so that when the

group of victims of AA are combined we too can do class action. At the

meeting of RR last night one nurse was told by the primere addictions and

media specialist who is a staunch 12 stomper that if she didn't take this

" counselling " she would DIE! Now there's client efficacy for you. $$$ for

Healthquest and Dr. Ray Baker.

Wipe out the whole crazy industry. On the ADDMED one fellow is pleading

with another to include anon. for tobacco addiction conference. I wrote him

and said that I hope he will use effective programs rather than the AA and

its focus on failures at quitting rather than successes.

Carol

At 12:21 PM 7/3/99 -0700, you wrote:

>

>Apple,

>

>I didn't realize that the RR class action suit applied to depression

>related abuses as well. I'll have to look into it.

>

>Anger, the forbidden emotion, can certainly bring about positive results

>when channeled appropriately as is evidenced by the creation of RR and

>the AADeprogramming Website. I just love the AADeprogramming Website

>and the sense of humor it employs. Is it your creation? I think it

>would be great to assemble a collection of high quality cartoon images

>depicting the many injustices, lies, and absurdities of the 12 step

>phenomenon. Humor can be such an effective means of communication

>especially when dealing with a sacred cow like AA. It's so easy for

>those self righteous step nazis to peg us as a bunch of angry, humorless

>refuseniks. I still believe that laughter is the most effective medicine

>and living well the best revenge.

>

>

>

>AppleDTP@... wrote:

>>

>> Tsk Tsk , It's not Sober to wish that a car collapses on your old AA

cronies....

>> (unless of course, my ex-sponsors are under the car too)

>> I mentioned the " you're just where you're supposed to be " bullshit in

one of the essays on the deprogramming site). A friend of mine was

suicidally depressed, and one of the BB Thumpers told her the same thing.

This MF has recently gotten his certificate to be a drug & alcohol

counsellor. I remember him telling me in early recovery when I was weak

and distressed and had been abused that I shouldn't feel angry. Anger would

just lead to relapse which would lead to jails, institutions or death.

>>

>> I have never felt suicidal myself, but self-abusive yes. I'd punish

myself for being inadequate. If a boyfriend would treat me badly, I'd stop

eating. I'd abuse my body for not being good enough. What cured my

impulse to self-abuse, was shifting it around mentally. Exactly what you

have done in your post with the sponsor under the car example! If someone

treats me badly, I think about or verbally express my desire to give em a

taste of their own medicine. I don't act on it of course, and I do try to

get them out of my life ASAP. The big flashing neon " Abuse Me " has been

removed from my forehead. I try not to take shit anymore. It's easy to take

shit when I'm feeling weak, but I try my best to take care of myself so I

don't spend a lot of time feeling vulnerable. If my taking the focus off

them and putting it on me offends some people, well, " too bad, so sad " .

Sometimes it's a good thing to not have the approval of certain people. For

sure, I wouldn't seek approval from a Klu-Klux-Klansman, or Jim Baker the

TV evangelist. It's very liberating not to seek approval, and I think

people respect me more.

>> Apple

>>

>> > Hi Judith,

>> >

>> > I resemble those remarks. I was suicidally depressed my whole first year

>> > in AA. I was also led to believe that the steps would take care of the

>> > depression. AA zealots declared medication for depression off limits. I

>> > substituted the one day at a time plan for one year at a time. I figured

>> > I'd stay sober a year and if it didn't get any better I could kill

>> > myself then. It is a miracle I survived. I was truly in agony and given

>> > how badly I felt, I feel like I am living proof that there is absolutely

>> > nothing that can make a person drink/use against their will. To add

>> > insult to injury, I was constantly being brushed off with the phrase

>> > " You're right where you're supposed to be. " I often yearned for the day

>> > that I would find one of these wise old timers pinned beneath their car

>> > after the jack had collapsed, so I could utter the same time worn phrase

>> > that had been so freely given to me.

>> >

>> >

>>

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals!

>> Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets

>> anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368

>>

>> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

>> - Simplifying group communications

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>eGroups Spotlight:

> " Egg and Egg Products " - There's more to eggs than eating them for

> breakfast! If you are a producer or a user this group is for you.

> http://clickhere./click/114

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

---

Life is a candy store.

Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at

Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------

eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free

- Simplifying group communications

[Guest guest]

>

>... I'm angry because I needed help specifically for depression in 1984 and

> instead I got help for chemical dependency, even though an evaluation showed

> that I was not chemically dependent.

>

> I'm angry because no other option was made available to me at the time. At

> that point, my depression was very treatable, but I was not given the option

> of specific treatment for depression (e.g., medication, therapy).

>

> I'm angry because the EAP (employee assistance program) counselor said,

> " once we treat the chemical dependency, we'll treat the depression. " Then

> the treatment for depression was a " 12 step therapist " who made me feel

> ashamed for not finding all the answers in the 12 steps. In other words,

> there was no treatment for the depression outside the 12 steps. In other

> words, there was no treatment for the depression. In other words, they lied

> to me.

>

> I'm angry because, even though I didn't consciously buy what AA was selling,

> the message " if you disobey me you will die and go to hell " resonated with

> what I learned as a child and has continued to affect me.

>

> I'm angry because even as I express this anger, part of me is saying

> judgmentally, " self-pity: you're just feeling sorry for yourself, you're

> blaming AA for your own mistakes and problems. "

>

> I'm angry. I'm not sorry or ashamed that I'm angry. I was hurt badly 15

> years ago. I was emotionally vulnerable and I was willing to work to get

> better. But my vulnerability and willingness to work were used to

> manipulate me into doing what was best for the treatment facility and AA,

> instead of what was best for me. I don't give a good goddam what their

> intentions were; I care about the outcome, I care that I was injured when I

> was vulnerable.

>

> I've tried to write this post about 3 times and discarded it each time.

> This time it gets sent. This is really how I feel--it's not up to someone

> else to label it for me or interpret it for me, so they can " help " me

> " recover. " My feelings, my life, are mine. My choices are mine. My

> perceptions are valid and I can trust myself.

>

> I made the choice to let go of AA in 1985. Now, I'm making the choice to

> let go of the remnants of 12 step thinking. My pain is valid. My anger is

> valid. My emotions are not defects of character, and I do not need to

> become ready to have God remove them. I do not have a lifelong, incurable

> disease that makes me different from everyone else.

>

> I know I'm far from perfect, and I look forward to spending the rest of my

> life living in accordance with MY OWN beliefs. Being agnostic, I am my own

> higher power; I have a conscience, I have the ability to tell right from

> wrong and make good choices. Most of all, I have the ability to figure out,

> with the help of my friends and family and co-workers, what is good about me

> and what I'd like to change.

>

> I do hold the EAP, the treatment facility, and AA accountable for the harm

> they did to me. I am held accountable for my mistakes; I hold others

> accountable for theirs.

>

> Thanks for letting me vent.

>

> Judith

>

--------------------------------

WOW!! What a wild coincidence! I was just responding to a week-old post

of yours on this very topic, and my Deja cookie crumbled, so I stored the post

in the keyboard cache and came to the 12sf website to re-send it... and you're

venting on the same topic!!

Our stories have many similarities, Judith... I share your pain and

outrage. Here is the post I was about to send; I hope the information I've

included is of use to you,should you decide to take action. Mis-diagnosis and

inappropriate treatment orders are both violations of the CEAP Code of

Professional Conduct.

Here's the post.

---

Hi Judith, , and list --

I was just cleaning out my mailbox &

reading some messages I'd missed, and came

across this one (and its antecedents).

Though it might be a bit late to respond, I

would like to add my comments, as it hits

quite close to home.

My own pain was caused not at all by AA

itself or its philosophy per se, as I never

actually was an AA member. (They say " you're

a member if you say you are " and I always

said I wasn't, that I was being required to

attend meetings to keep my job. I never got

a sponsor or ever tried to " work the steps "

for a minute.)

My pain was caused ENTIRELY by the EAP

of my company. As in any of the " helping

professions " there are good ones, bad ones,

and downright horrible ones, and the head

honcho EAP in my company is one of the most

arrogant control-freak creeps ever to

disgrace the EAP or social work professions.

In fact, I think he probably has a

narcissistic personality disorder. But

what's worse is that the structure in my

agency allows him and his subordinates

absolute free reign to fulfill all their

control-freak fantasies. Our contract

(agreed to by our useless union) states that

any employee found " positive " on a random

Breathalyzer (regardless of job performance

record, and without any professional

determination of " alcoholism " ) will be placed

on unpaid leave of absence FOR AS LONG AS EAP

DEEMS NECESSARY, must undergo WHATEVER

" REHABILITATION " EAP REQUIRES, and must obey

all directives of EAP, OR FACE DISMISSAL.

They revel in the power thus accorded

them. The very first thing they " require " is

for all employees in their clutches to state

that they have an " incurable disease. " God

forbid you should be " rigorously honest " and

say you had a beer with lunch, it was stupid,

but you're not an alcoholic and have never

been in any trouble on or off the job. Mr.

EAP actually smirks while saying, " You will

remain suspended without pay until you admit

you have the incurable disease of alcoholism

over which you are powerless. " It only gets

worse from there -- forced outpatient

" treatment " using a trumped-up " diagnosis " of

" chemical dependency " (they told us all

addictions are the same and all are

progressive so coke-heads, junkies, casual

pot-smokers, alcoholics, casual beer-drinkers

etc. were all in identical " treatment "

together), XA meetings (didn't matter which

" A " ) 5 times weekly, EAP " quizzes " on steps

and slogans (we had to memorize them!) etc.

etc. etc.

I was in therapy at the time, thank God,

with an excellent and very ethical

psychologist. He was aghast at what they

were doing. Not being a stepper or familiar

with " recovery " mythology, he at first

assumed the logical thing -- that after 30

days or so of negative drug/alcohol tests,

they would conclude there was no addiction

present and discharge me from treatment. He

also wrote a letter to Mr. EAP telling him

that in his (Dr.'s) opinion, I showed no sign

of any alcohol dependency disorder and was

being privately treated for " personal issues "

i.e. stress and depression, and in his

opinion was entirely fit for duty. Mr. EAP

simply smirked again and said " Addicts and

alcoholics are very good at manipulating

therapists into writing letters on their

behalf. " In that one dismissive comment, he

was both implying that Dr. G. was a

lily-livered quack who let himself be led

around by the nose by his patients, and that

he (Mr. EAP) was so far,far superior as to be

able to see through these machinations. And

besides, the contract says EAP is in charge,

not some PhD!!! He tried to order me to stop

seeing my therapist, and I told him no way,

Dr. G. was doing legitimate counseling,

unlike EAP.

I remained suspended without pay for 7

1/2 months under EAP orders, during which

time I was tested for drugs and alcohol 110

times, all negative of course. But they kept

calling me " an alcoholic who's just sober for

today. " My depression and anxiety deepened

considerably of course -- I had no idea when

they would let me go back to work, and no idea what psychological torture Mr.

EAP would devise next.

I never did let Mr. EAP have the

victory he truly wanted -- I never said I had

a disease, and never told him the EAP program

was helping me recover (something else he

tries to coerce people into saying). I was

finally " allowed " to stop going to AA

meetings after I filed a First Amendment

lawsuit (because my company is part of a

state agency and the EAP is part of company

management). The settlement requires the EAP

to offer non-12-step, non-religious programs

in addition to XA, but doesn't address the

fraudulent diagnosis/unnecessary treatment

issue, as that's not a constitutional claim.

The concept of Employee Assistance

Programs is not a bad one -- they're supposed

to be company-and-union sponsored counseling

centers where employees can go voluntarily to

resolve problems that are adversely affecting

job performance, before they get into enough

trouble to get fired. They were NEVER meant

to be disciplinary, coercive, or threatening

in nature, and EAP counselors were intended

to recommend removal from service only as an

emergency measure, and help employees get

back to work as soon as possible, NOT to

suspend people with excellent work records

just for personal kicks and power.

The " CEAP " title is a national

certification of the Employee Assistance

Professionals Association. They have a

detailed Code of Professional Conduct which

can be viewed at:

http://eap-association.com/Certification/Code

_of_Professional_Conduct/code_of_professional

_conduct.html

The EAP in my company has violated many

sections of this code. I filed a complaint

with them, but was forced to withdraw it as

part of the settlement of the federal suit.

I know there are some EAP's who really

do care and try to help rather than hurt.

But the one I was exposed to was a nightmare.

It left me feeling mentally raped.

p.s. They have a plaque on the wall

attesting to their extraordinarily high

" success rate " . I'm living proof that these

statistics are worthless -- they take people

like me who never had an addiction problem

into their program, and then when we're not addicts

afterwards either they call us " program

successes " .

~Railroad Rita

----------------------------------

On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 06:29:31 Judith

Stillwater wrote:

>I'm not sure what to say but I feel I need

to reply.

>

>My experience with an EAP hurt me. The only

other thing that has happened

>to me as an adult which hurt me as badly was

dealing with infertility.

>

>I didn't share my experience as a personal

slam against or anyone

>else. I shared it because...that's what

people do here, they share stories

>about how they've been hurt by the 12 steps.

>

>judith

>

>On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 05:38:40 -0700,

WROSE2@... wrote:

>

>> Hello People-

>> I used to be an EAP with the UAW. I got

thought of as a Narc and treated

>as an outsider. I hated it. I just wanted

to help people with their

>problems. Granted, being the Big Book

thumper I was at the time, that

>certainly played a humongous part!! The

only thing I gained in my years

>serving was a feeling that I had helped a

fellow human being. In the UAW,

>they don't pay you extra for following up on

people when you visit them at

>the treatment center or hospital after

hours, but I wanted to do it. (They

>didn't encourage it, either). I'm not

really tooting my own horn, here.

>Just thought I'd share another side of it.

>>

>>

>>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

>

>... I'm angry because I needed help specifically for depression in 1984 and

> instead I got help for chemical dependency, even though an evaluation showed

> that I was not chemically dependent.

>

> I'm angry because no other option was made available to me at the time. At

> that point, my depression was very treatable, but I was not given the option

> of specific treatment for depression (e.g., medication, therapy).

>

> I'm angry because the EAP (employee assistance program) counselor said,

> " once we treat the chemical dependency, we'll treat the depression. " Then

> the treatment for depression was a " 12 step therapist " who made me feel

> ashamed for not finding all the answers in the 12 steps. In other words,

> there was no treatment for the depression outside the 12 steps. In other

> words, there was no treatment for the depression. In other words, they lied

> to me.

>

> I'm angry because, even though I didn't consciously buy what AA was selling,

> the message " if you disobey me you will die and go to hell " resonated with

> what I learned as a child and has continued to affect me.

>

> I'm angry because even as I express this anger, part of me is saying

> judgmentally, " self-pity: you're just feeling sorry for yourself, you're

> blaming AA for your own mistakes and problems. "

>

> I'm angry. I'm not sorry or ashamed that I'm angry. I was hurt badly 15

> years ago. I was emotionally vulnerable and I was willing to work to get

> better. But my vulnerability and willingness to work were used to

> manipulate me into doing what was best for the treatment facility and AA,

> instead of what was best for me. I don't give a good goddam what their

> intentions were; I care about the outcome, I care that I was injured when I

> was vulnerable.

>

> I've tried to write this post about 3 times and discarded it each time.

> This time it gets sent. This is really how I feel--it's not up to someone

> else to label it for me or interpret it for me, so they can " help " me

> " recover. " My feelings, my life, are mine. My choices are mine. My

> perceptions are valid and I can trust myself.

>

> I made the choice to let go of AA in 1985. Now, I'm making the choice to

> let go of the remnants of 12 step thinking. My pain is valid. My anger is

> valid. My emotions are not defects of character, and I do not need to

> become ready to have God remove them. I do not have a lifelong, incurable

> disease that makes me different from everyone else.

>

> I know I'm far from perfect, and I look forward to spending the rest of my

> life living in accordance with MY OWN beliefs. Being agnostic, I am my own

> higher power; I have a conscience, I have the ability to tell right from

> wrong and make good choices. Most of all, I have the ability to figure out,

> with the help of my friends and family and co-workers, what is good about me

> and what I'd like to change.

>

> I do hold the EAP, the treatment facility, and AA accountable for the harm

> they did to me. I am held accountable for my mistakes; I hold others

> accountable for theirs.

>

> Thanks for letting me vent.

>

> Judith

>

--------------------------------

WOW!! What a wild coincidence! I was just responding to a week-old post

of yours on this very topic, and my Deja cookie crumbled, so I stored the post

in the keyboard cache and came to the 12sf website to re-send it... and you're

venting on the same topic!!

Our stories have many similarities, Judith... I share your pain and

outrage. Here is the post I was about to send; I hope the information I've

included is of use to you,should you decide to take action. Mis-diagnosis and

inappropriate treatment orders are both violations of the CEAP Code of

Professional Conduct.

Here's the post.

---

Hi Judith, , and list --

I was just cleaning out my mailbox &

reading some messages I'd missed, and came

across this one (and its antecedents).

Though it might be a bit late to respond, I

would like to add my comments, as it hits

quite close to home.

My own pain was caused not at all by AA

itself or its philosophy per se, as I never

actually was an AA member. (They say " you're

a member if you say you are " and I always

said I wasn't, that I was being required to

attend meetings to keep my job. I never got

a sponsor or ever tried to " work the steps "

for a minute.)

My pain was caused ENTIRELY by the EAP

of my company. As in any of the " helping

professions " there are good ones, bad ones,

and downright horrible ones, and the head

honcho EAP in my company is one of the most

arrogant control-freak creeps ever to

disgrace the EAP or social work professions.

In fact, I think he probably has a

narcissistic personality disorder. But

what's worse is that the structure in my

agency allows him and his subordinates

absolute free reign to fulfill all their

control-freak fantasies. Our contract

(agreed to by our useless union) states that

any employee found " positive " on a random

Breathalyzer (regardless of job performance

record, and without any professional

determination of " alcoholism " ) will be placed

on unpaid leave of absence FOR AS LONG AS EAP

DEEMS NECESSARY, must undergo WHATEVER

" REHABILITATION " EAP REQUIRES, and must obey

all directives of EAP, OR FACE DISMISSAL.

They revel in the power thus accorded

them. The very first thing they " require " is

for all employees in their clutches to state

that they have an " incurable disease. " God

forbid you should be " rigorously honest " and

say you had a beer with lunch, it was stupid,

but you're not an alcoholic and have never

been in any trouble on or off the job. Mr.

EAP actually smirks while saying, " You will

remain suspended without pay until you admit

you have the incurable disease of alcoholism

over which you are powerless. " It only gets

worse from there -- forced outpatient

" treatment " using a trumped-up " diagnosis " of

" chemical dependency " (they told us all

addictions are the same and all are

progressive so coke-heads, junkies, casual

pot-smokers, alcoholics, casual beer-drinkers

etc. were all in identical " treatment "

together), XA meetings (didn't matter which

" A " ) 5 times weekly, EAP " quizzes " on steps

and slogans (we had to memorize them!) etc.

etc. etc.

I was in therapy at the time, thank God,

with an excellent and very ethical

psychologist. He was aghast at what they

were doing. Not being a stepper or familiar

with " recovery " mythology, he at first

assumed the logical thing -- that after 30

days or so of negative drug/alcohol tests,

they would conclude there was no addiction

present and discharge me from treatment. He

also wrote a letter to Mr. EAP telling him

that in his (Dr.'s) opinion, I showed no sign

of any alcohol dependency disorder and was

being privately treated for " personal issues "

i.e. stress and depression, and in his

opinion was entirely fit for duty. Mr. EAP

simply smirked again and said " Addicts and

alcoholics are very good at manipulating

therapists into writing letters on their

behalf. " In that one dismissive comment, he

was both implying that Dr. G. was a

lily-livered quack who let himself be led

around by the nose by his patients, and that

he (Mr. EAP) was so far,far superior as to be

able to see through these machinations. And

besides, the contract says EAP is in charge,

not some PhD!!! He tried to order me to stop

seeing my therapist, and I told him no way,

Dr. G. was doing legitimate counseling,

unlike EAP.

I remained suspended without pay for 7

1/2 months under EAP orders, during which

time I was tested for drugs and alcohol 110

times, all negative of course. But they kept

calling me " an alcoholic who's just sober for

today. " My depression and anxiety deepened

considerably of course -- I had no idea when

they would let me go back to work, and no idea what psychological torture Mr.

EAP would devise next.

I never did let Mr. EAP have the

victory he truly wanted -- I never said I had

a disease, and never told him the EAP program

was helping me recover (something else he

tries to coerce people into saying). I was

finally " allowed " to stop going to AA

meetings after I filed a First Amendment

lawsuit (because my company is part of a

state agency and the EAP is part of company

management). The settlement requires the EAP

to offer non-12-step, non-religious programs

in addition to XA, but doesn't address the

fraudulent diagnosis/unnecessary treatment

issue, as that's not a constitutional claim.

The concept of Employee Assistance

Programs is not a bad one -- they're supposed

to be company-and-union sponsored counseling

centers where employees can go voluntarily to

resolve problems that are adversely affecting

job performance, before they get into enough

trouble to get fired. They were NEVER meant

to be disciplinary, coercive, or threatening

in nature, and EAP counselors were intended

to recommend removal from service only as an

emergency measure, and help employees get

back to work as soon as possible, NOT to

suspend people with excellent work records

just for personal kicks and power.

The " CEAP " title is a national

certification of the Employee Assistance

Professionals Association. They have a

detailed Code of Professional Conduct which

can be viewed at:

http://eap-association.com/Certification/Code

_of_Professional_Conduct/code_of_professional

_conduct.html

The EAP in my company has violated many

sections of this code. I filed a complaint

with them, but was forced to withdraw it as

part of the settlement of the federal suit.

I know there are some EAP's who really

do care and try to help rather than hurt.

But the one I was exposed to was a nightmare.

It left me feeling mentally raped.

p.s. They have a plaque on the wall

attesting to their extraordinarily high

" success rate " . I'm living proof that these

statistics are worthless -- they take people

like me who never had an addiction problem

into their program, and then when we're not addicts

afterwards either they call us " program

successes " .

~Railroad Rita

----------------------------------

On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 06:29:31 Judith

Stillwater wrote:

>I'm not sure what to say but I feel I need

to reply.

>

>My experience with an EAP hurt me. The only

other thing that has happened

>to me as an adult which hurt me as badly was

dealing with infertility.

>

>I didn't share my experience as a personal

slam against or anyone

>else. I shared it because...that's what

people do here, they share stories

>about how they've been hurt by the 12 steps.

>

>judith

>

>On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 05:38:40 -0700,

WROSE2@... wrote:

>

>> Hello People-

>> I used to be an EAP with the UAW. I got

thought of as a Narc and treated

>as an outsider. I hated it. I just wanted

to help people with their

>problems. Granted, being the Big Book

thumper I was at the time, that

>certainly played a humongous part!! The

only thing I gained in my years

>serving was a feeling that I had helped a

fellow human being. In the UAW,

>they don't pay you extra for following up on

people when you visit them at

>the treatment center or hospital after

hours, but I wanted to do it. (They

>didn't encourage it, either). I'm not

really tooting my own horn, here.

>Just thought I'd share another side of it.

>>

>>

>>

>

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[Guest guest]

Hey Carol;

I have depression and PTSD and was told in treatment that AA

would fix it as late as 1989. Problem was I didn't even stay sober

in AA and I damnwell tried.

The proof that I tried is that after leaving AA and my three months

sober two weeks drunk merry go round, I'll be 9 years in october of

this year. My effort wasn't the fault, it was the god damned abuse I

allowed to be heaped on me at the direction of " Treatment

Counsellors " who I later found out had less education than me. I

only have high school and a few community college courses in

Psyche, Socy, Criminology and Law. I have no degrees.

I should have been wise to that because I was a counsellor in a tx

center in Des Moines in 68-9 and all I had then was high school.

All that was required was memorizing twelve lectures and know the

twelve steps back then. Guess I figured things had improved, but if

it makes money, don't fix it, seems the attitude.

There are too many AA's in government positions to totally shut

down the 12step treatments, but I think insurance companies

might be able to manage it.

As twelve steps is declared a religion, I don't believe insurance

companies are obliged to pay. However 12 steps is cheaper than

the treatment really needed so they may stick with it till the

repitition gets too expensive. You can pay 6 AA counsellors for

what a real pro like a Clinical Psychologist will cost.

However, it's cheaper in human terms to pay the psychologist

because the shrink has a far better chance of success.

I think eventually insurance companies will take a longer view and

prefer to pay the shrink now instead of later after paying for twenty

12step treatments.

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[Guest guest]

Hey Carol;

I have depression and PTSD and was told in treatment that AA

would fix it as late as 1989. Problem was I didn't even stay sober

in AA and I damnwell tried.

The proof that I tried is that after leaving AA and my three months

sober two weeks drunk merry go round, I'll be 9 years in october of

this year. My effort wasn't the fault, it was the god damned abuse I

allowed to be heaped on me at the direction of " Treatment

Counsellors " who I later found out had less education than me. I

only have high school and a few community college courses in

Psyche, Socy, Criminology and Law. I have no degrees.

I should have been wise to that because I was a counsellor in a tx

center in Des Moines in 68-9 and all I had then was high school.

All that was required was memorizing twelve lectures and know the

twelve steps back then. Guess I figured things had improved, but if

it makes money, don't fix it, seems the attitude.

There are too many AA's in government positions to totally shut

down the 12step treatments, but I think insurance companies

might be able to manage it.

As twelve steps is declared a religion, I don't believe insurance

companies are obliged to pay. However 12 steps is cheaper than

the treatment really needed so they may stick with it till the

repitition gets too expensive. You can pay 6 AA counsellors for

what a real pro like a Clinical Psychologist will cost.

However, it's cheaper in human terms to pay the psychologist

because the shrink has a far better chance of success.

I think eventually insurance companies will take a longer view and

prefer to pay the shrink now instead of later after paying for twenty

12step treatments.

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[Guest guest]

Dear Judith;

Being angry about being hurt by folks who say they are going to

help is hardly self pity or a character defect. Any other reaction

would show you weren't wrapped too tightly.

For the first couple of years it may have been my anger at AA that

kept me sober. Fact is I was about like an AA in reverse. If

someone mentioned something good about AA in my presence

they'd get a two hour lecture. I felt good about it because at the

time I was probably the only one who'd say anything within 40

miles of where I lived and we had seven or eight TX Centers in the

area. Now there is only one 8 bed facility, and it has shrunk from

20 beds. Most of the AA groups vanished with the treatment

centers. When I mention that to AA people, they just say the

groups were no good. What a crock, 60 no good groups out of 65.

That's an estimation, it may have been 50 or 70 but there were a

ton of them eight years ago. A town with 75 people would have a

30 member AA group, but no more.

It takes a lot of drunks to keep a hundred member group alive

because nearly half will be in relapse at any given time and the

core is usually about a dozen. With no TX for new blood and no

court orders, the group will shrink and die. That and not bad

groups is what has happened.

Sometimes if I'm bored, I'll drive to an old meeting site. It's

affirming to drive bye at eight pm and see two cars in the lot, when

eight years ago the lot would be full and streets parked full for two

blocks around. People no longer feel forced to go, so they simply

don't go.

AA can still affect me, but not in a way they'd approve. Sometimes

Rose will be in the bedroom reading, while I'm writing to a list.

She'll holler from the bedroom, " Lighten up on AA Hall " and I know

I've been hitting the keys like I was driving nails, and she has heard

it in the bedroom.

The abuses heaped on myself and other folks can still piss me of

huge. Which reminds me, did you ever notice that almost all folks

who've been through treatment use the expression " Big Time " at

least ten times per day? It has become another AA slogan.

I've been in at least 30 perhaps 40 treatment and detox centers and

none of them noticed I had PTSD, which I now understand is a

relatively simple diagnosis.

I knew AA and those treatments weren't changing anything, but

was convinced by them it was my fault. At first finding out they

were wrong and incompetent was a big relief, then I got pissed!

That feeling has never totally left.

AA taught me that being angry would get me drunk, that I was

required to forgive people. They lied. Drinking alcohol got me

drunk, not being angry. Forgiving people who would do the same

thing to me again if given the chance is ludicrous. I no longer allow

them to hurt me, but forgive them. Why? It wouldn't make me feel

any better, and I'm not into making them feel better.

The 12step version of serenity is the abscence of emotion.

Medecine would call it a lobotomy.

In 1962 I was in a mental health unit with a guy named Dennis who

had a lobotomy. He never had a nuetral or gloomy expression, he

even smiled in his sleep(Honest injun) Drove everybody on the

ward crazy. He smiled all the time and obeyed any order from

anyone no matter how ridiculous. Kind of the ideal AA you might

say.

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[Guest guest]

Ya know...I was angry when I initially wrote this post, but responses like

this bring me beyond anger for myself, to concern for the welfare of others.

I'm glad legal action is being taken, and I'm glad alternatives to AA

are...even in existence now. But clearly AA and the treatment industry are

still doing what was done to me. I would be interested to know of the

suicide rate of people in 12 step programs relative to that of people who

are not in 12 step programs; I wonder how I could research that.

Judith

> Yes Joe... In fact, I once heard that " powerlessness " is the number one

complaint on suicide hotline calls.

> Apple

> > The saddest part of this, apart that is from the obvious nonsense of

this type of " treatment " is that the highly dysfunctional ideas of

powerlessness, surrender and incurable disease embodied in the steps are

likly to cause or exacerbate depression rather than treat it.

> > Joe Berenbaum

_______________________________________________________

Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/

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[Guest guest]

, I am so glad to hear you saying what you are saying. This post

combined with your " Positive AA Story " tells volumes, and agrees with

what I've always heard oldtimers say, namely, treatment centers ruined

AA. In contrast to the oldtimers I've known, however, you've said it

with a wealth of detail and very eloquently. I think the oldtimers,

the ones who are left (if any), are afraid to speak up in meetings!

Along the line of the " You're just where you're supposed to be "

stories, I remember once being in a meeting where a guy who worked for

a bank had been called in and orally reprimanded for I don't remember

what. He worked pretty independently in mergers and acquisitions and

had been sober for about two years, but he was still the kind of

impulsive and often tactless guy he had always been, and he was upset

about the reprimand. And I said to him, " Chuck, it's not a setback,

it's an opportunity! " (This is pure treatment speak.) I swear he

almost decked me. He tensed up and his arm went back and a little

forward, and then he caught himself. Afterwards he insisted he wasn't

going to hit me, but I never quite believed him, and I know how both he

and I felt about that kind of flip, unthinking response to someone

else's distress, no matter how fleeting it is, it is heartfelt at the

moment. I wasn't serious, and he realized very quickly that I was not

being serious but was parodying the program, but still, he had that

quick, instinctive reaction to someone who was answering him with a

slogan, not a human response.

, I wish you would consider putting your whole story down on paper

and publishing it if you can. You write very well, and you convey very

well your progress through life and the very good place you have

arrived at now, despite the problems, like your back pain, that come

with living. You have a very sane outlook on AA, and can look at it

when it was apparently what it was initially meant to be (something

I've never experienced) and what it has become, and how sick it is now.

It would make a very interesting story, and one that I'm sure would be

welcome to lots of people. I can't help but think that for every one

of us in this group there are several hundred out there who think the

same way we do, but have no clue that there are others who feel the

same way and don't know where to go or what to do. Books still reach

more people than the Internet does.

You might not even have to do much, considering the volume of posts you

have written and how much you have said. You may have done it all

already.

wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5265

> Hey ;

>

> I never stayed sober in AA, maybe I didn't work the program

> correctly what?

>

> The picture you paint of the " Collapsed Jack " is an appealing one.

> Wonder if I could arrange it for a couple of them. One for you one

> for me, but I get to watch! 8-)

>

> Seriously, well maybe I was serious. However, I always hated

> those one size fits none pop psychobabble phrases. I suppose

> The Jews in Birkenau were where they were supposed to be

> according to AA. One of the more ridiculous things I've heard.

> However one of those pat phrases was a good affirmation for my

> having left AA, it's " Keep doin' what you're doin', you'll keep

gettin'

> what you're gettin'. " With what I was gettin' from AA it was a good

> idea not to keep doin' it!

>

> In all fairness, before the advent of the TX's, I never heard any

> psychobabble, no elavil is a slip, no Alcoholism is a disease.

> Sometimes sponsors would recomend a shrink(Honest) I'm not

> saying AA was great, but there was no " Attack Dog " mentality and

> no psyche jargon. The slogans were common sayings like " Live

> and let live " as a tolerance reminder. As common courtesy you

> didn't question someone else's sobriety, even if you knew they lied

> claiming a year and you'd seen them drunk two months previously.

> It was their problem and usually they'd cop out after while. You

> know how hard that would be to keep up.

>

> Most folks didn't take the twelve steps all that seriously, not like

> they do now. In Aug of 66 I drank for one day after being sober

> from Feb. My sponsor's admonition was, " It looks like you just

> haven't fully accepted that you cannot drink successfully. " That

> was it, no finger pointing, no me against the group. It started

> changing in 67 with the advent of the detox center, where

> incidentally I went to work as a counsellor. I relapsed twice in the

> year I worked there. Something was missing for me, but I had not

> the faintest Idea what it was. That's when the " Disease " started

> and at first AA rejected the idea. However, soon the ranks of AA

> were filled with detox graduates and the transition was a given.

> Now nearly all AA members have gone through treatment and AA

> has become an extension of treatment with its' confrontations and

> for Gods Sake Feedback! Group feedback should only be

> conducted in the presence of a qualified Psychologist or

> psychiatrist. A shrink will put a stop to some idiot throwing

> psychobabble around. Of course he also won't treat a guy like God

> just because he has abstained from alcohol for ten years. That

> would be intolerable to the AA Guru's

>

> IF this were 1966, I would be torn, because all the folks in AA were

> so damned decent back then. Not just because they put me up

> and arranged a job for me, but they stayed that way and invited me

> into the group. From the podium the talks were mostly centered

> on self honesty. Half of the time was spent in humor and I hadn't

> laughed much in a long time. I was one of the group and it felt

> good.

>

> Alas that was 25 years ago and this is now. Now it's a no brainer.

> Unqualified people calling themselves counsellors, running

> treatment and AA. Using the 12 steps as a weapon on vulnerable

> people. The majority would rather climb a tree to tell a lie than

> stand on the ground and tell the truth. I don't need pain first to

> make me feel better.

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

, I am so glad to hear you saying what you are saying. This post

combined with your " Positive AA Story " tells volumes, and agrees with

what I've always heard oldtimers say, namely, treatment centers ruined

AA. In contrast to the oldtimers I've known, however, you've said it

with a wealth of detail and very eloquently. I think the oldtimers,

the ones who are left (if any), are afraid to speak up in meetings!

Along the line of the " You're just where you're supposed to be "

stories, I remember once being in a meeting where a guy who worked for

a bank had been called in and orally reprimanded for I don't remember

what. He worked pretty independently in mergers and acquisitions and

had been sober for about two years, but he was still the kind of

impulsive and often tactless guy he had always been, and he was upset

about the reprimand. And I said to him, " Chuck, it's not a setback,

it's an opportunity! " (This is pure treatment speak.) I swear he

almost decked me. He tensed up and his arm went back and a little

forward, and then he caught himself. Afterwards he insisted he wasn't

going to hit me, but I never quite believed him, and I know how both he

and I felt about that kind of flip, unthinking response to someone

else's distress, no matter how fleeting it is, it is heartfelt at the

moment. I wasn't serious, and he realized very quickly that I was not

being serious but was parodying the program, but still, he had that

quick, instinctive reaction to someone who was answering him with a

slogan, not a human response.

, I wish you would consider putting your whole story down on paper

and publishing it if you can. You write very well, and you convey very

well your progress through life and the very good place you have

arrived at now, despite the problems, like your back pain, that come

with living. You have a very sane outlook on AA, and can look at it

when it was apparently what it was initially meant to be (something

I've never experienced) and what it has become, and how sick it is now.

It would make a very interesting story, and one that I'm sure would be

welcome to lots of people. I can't help but think that for every one

of us in this group there are several hundred out there who think the

same way we do, but have no clue that there are others who feel the

same way and don't know where to go or what to do. Books still reach

more people than the Internet does.

You might not even have to do much, considering the volume of posts you

have written and how much you have said. You may have done it all

already.

wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5265

> Hey ;

>

> I never stayed sober in AA, maybe I didn't work the program

> correctly what?

>

> The picture you paint of the " Collapsed Jack " is an appealing one.

> Wonder if I could arrange it for a couple of them. One for you one

> for me, but I get to watch! 8-)

>

> Seriously, well maybe I was serious. However, I always hated

> those one size fits none pop psychobabble phrases. I suppose

> The Jews in Birkenau were where they were supposed to be

> according to AA. One of the more ridiculous things I've heard.

> However one of those pat phrases was a good affirmation for my

> having left AA, it's " Keep doin' what you're doin', you'll keep

gettin'

> what you're gettin'. " With what I was gettin' from AA it was a good

> idea not to keep doin' it!

>

> In all fairness, before the advent of the TX's, I never heard any

> psychobabble, no elavil is a slip, no Alcoholism is a disease.

> Sometimes sponsors would recomend a shrink(Honest) I'm not

> saying AA was great, but there was no " Attack Dog " mentality and

> no psyche jargon. The slogans were common sayings like " Live

> and let live " as a tolerance reminder. As common courtesy you

> didn't question someone else's sobriety, even if you knew they lied

> claiming a year and you'd seen them drunk two months previously.

> It was their problem and usually they'd cop out after while. You

> know how hard that would be to keep up.

>

> Most folks didn't take the twelve steps all that seriously, not like

> they do now. In Aug of 66 I drank for one day after being sober

> from Feb. My sponsor's admonition was, " It looks like you just

> haven't fully accepted that you cannot drink successfully. " That

> was it, no finger pointing, no me against the group. It started

> changing in 67 with the advent of the detox center, where

> incidentally I went to work as a counsellor. I relapsed twice in the

> year I worked there. Something was missing for me, but I had not

> the faintest Idea what it was. That's when the " Disease " started

> and at first AA rejected the idea. However, soon the ranks of AA

> were filled with detox graduates and the transition was a given.

> Now nearly all AA members have gone through treatment and AA

> has become an extension of treatment with its' confrontations and

> for Gods Sake Feedback! Group feedback should only be

> conducted in the presence of a qualified Psychologist or

> psychiatrist. A shrink will put a stop to some idiot throwing

> psychobabble around. Of course he also won't treat a guy like God

> just because he has abstained from alcohol for ten years. That

> would be intolerable to the AA Guru's

>

> IF this were 1966, I would be torn, because all the folks in AA were

> so damned decent back then. Not just because they put me up

> and arranged a job for me, but they stayed that way and invited me

> into the group. From the podium the talks were mostly centered

> on self honesty. Half of the time was spent in humor and I hadn't

> laughed much in a long time. I was one of the group and it felt

> good.

>

> Alas that was 25 years ago and this is now. Now it's a no brainer.

> Unqualified people calling themselves counsellors, running

> treatment and AA. Using the 12 steps as a weapon on vulnerable

> people. The majority would rather climb a tree to tell a lie than

> stand on the ground and tell the truth. I don't need pain first to

> make me feel better.

>

>

>

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