Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 Hey ; I never stayed sober in AA, maybe I didn't work the program correctly what? The picture you paint of the " Collapsed Jack " is an appealing one. Wonder if I could arrange it for a couple of them. One for you one for me, but I get to watch! 8-) Seriously, well maybe I was serious. However, I always hated those one size fits none pop psychobabble phrases. I suppose The Jews in Birkenau were where they were supposed to be according to AA. One of the more ridiculous things I've heard. However one of those pat phrases was a good affirmation for my having left AA, it's " Keep doin' what you're doin', you'll keep gettin' what you're gettin'. " With what I was gettin' from AA it was a good idea not to keep doin' it! In all fairness, before the advent of the TX's, I never heard any psychobabble, no elavil is a slip, no Alcoholism is a disease. Sometimes sponsors would recomend a shrink(Honest) I'm not saying AA was great, but there was no " Attack Dog " mentality and no psyche jargon. The slogans were common sayings like " Live and let live " as a tolerance reminder. As common courtesy you didn't question someone else's sobriety, even if you knew they lied claiming a year and you'd seen them drunk two months previously. It was their problem and usually they'd cop out after while. You know how hard that would be to keep up. Most folks didn't take the twelve steps all that seriously, not like they do now. In Aug of 66 I drank for one day after being sober from Feb. My sponsor's admonition was, " It looks like you just haven't fully accepted that you cannot drink successfully. " That was it, no finger pointing, no me against the group. It started changing in 67 with the advent of the detox center, where incidentally I went to work as a counsellor. I relapsed twice in the year I worked there. Something was missing for me, but I had not the faintest Idea what it was. That's when the " Disease " started and at first AA rejected the idea. However, soon the ranks of AA were filled with detox graduates and the transition was a given. Now nearly all AA members have gone through treatment and AA has become an extension of treatment with its' confrontations and for Gods Sake Feedback! Group feedback should only be conducted in the presence of a qualified Psychologist or psychiatrist. A shrink will put a stop to some idiot throwing psychobabble around. Of course he also won't treat a guy like God just because he has abstained from alcohol for ten years. That would be intolerable to the AA Guru's IF this were 1966, I would be torn, because all the folks in AA were so damned decent back then. Not just because they put me up and arranged a job for me, but they stayed that way and invited me into the group. From the podium the talks were mostly centered on self honesty. Half of the time was spent in humor and I hadn't laughed much in a long time. I was one of the group and it felt good. Alas that was 25 years ago and this is now. Now it's a no brainer. Unqualified people calling themselves counsellors, running treatment and AA. Using the 12 steps as a weapon on vulnerable people. The majority would rather climb a tree to tell a lie than stand on the ground and tell the truth. I don't need pain first to make me feel better. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 Yes Joe... In fact, I once heard that " powerlessness " is the number one complaint on suicide hotline calls. Apple > > The saddest part of this, apart that is from the obvious nonsense of this > type of " treatment " is that the highly dysfunctional ideas of > powerlessness, surrender and incurable disease embodied in the steps are > likly to cause or exacerbate depression rather than treat it. > > Joe Berenbaum > mailto:joe-b@... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 1999 Report Share Posted July 4, 1999 At 02:35 AM 7/4/99 PDT, Judith Stillwater wrote: >Ya know...I was angry when I initially wrote this post, but responses like >this bring me beyond anger for myself, to concern for the welfare of others. >I'm glad legal action is being taken, and I'm glad alternatives to AA >are...even in existence now. But clearly AA and the treatment industry are >still doing what was done to me. I would be interested to know of the >suicide rate of people in 12 step programs relative to that of people who >are not in 12 step programs; I wonder how I could research that. This is anecdotal, but I would not at all be surprised if the suicide rate of problem drinkers went up after being introduced to/indoctrinated into AA. Of course, AA itself would ignore such statistical evidence, pointing out that by the time people get to a point where they find AA, they're desperate (while this may be a contributing factor, AA may dash any hopes they had of regaining control of their lives), and suicide is just one end result of the 'progression of the disease'. Also, one of the catch phrases I heard about every suicide was " he was constitutionally incapable of being honest with himself. " Thus in AA it is always the suicide's fault, in spite of the " help " that AA'ers so freely tried to give. I've mentioned this before, but I remember years ago hearing about Dr. Talbott's heavy-handed and 'remarkably successful' 12-step-based treatment for doctors, where there had been 10 doctors who committed suicide after going through the program. ----- http://listen.to/benbradley ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 1999 Report Share Posted July 4, 1999 Hi Judith Of course, XA groups never let ppl research them properly. ....and claim " humble non-promotion " as the reason! in my recent debateds on my list with 2 ppl who say they are not steppers, maybe they are not. but, they're not asllowed to say if they are. most ppl when someone promotes something, WANT to knowe if the person belongs, so they can take that inot consideration when evaluating the claim. with anonymoty, poppl can sing XA praises to the rooftops never letting on that theyre promotibg a cult that they belong to. you cant even check out their personal stories! Pete On Sun, 04 Jul 1999 02:35:59 PDT Judith Stillwater wrote: > Ya know...I was angry when I initially wrote this post, but responses like > this bring me beyond anger for myself, to concern for the welfare of others. > I'm glad legal action is being taken, and I'm glad alternatives to AA > are...even in existence now. But clearly AA and the treatment industry are > still doing what was done to me. I would be interested to know of the > suicide rate of people in 12 step programs relative to that of people who > are not in 12 step programs; I wonder how I could research that. > > Judith > > > > > Yes Joe... In fact, I once heard that " powerlessness " is the number one > complaint on suicide hotline calls. > > Apple > > > > The saddest part of this, apart that is from the obvious nonsense of > this type of " treatment " is that the highly dysfunctional ideas of > powerlessness, surrender and incurable disease embodied in the steps are > likly to cause or exacerbate depression rather than treat it. > > > Joe Berenbaum > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! > Try something new and discover more ways to save! > http://clickhere./click/381 > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Pete Watts Owner PSY-PHAR Psychology/Psychiatry Outcome Research in PsychoPharm PD Personality Disorders Discussion ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 1999 Report Share Posted July 4, 1999 Clearly AA and the Twelve Steps are major causes of depression. Just check with Bill . Even a string of mistresses, a cult following, chain smoking, and L.S.D. couldn't lift him from a depression strengthened and exacerbated by his own spirit hobbling screed. Actually I'm being a bit hard on Bill since AA is merely repackaged Oxford Group. The poor bugger was conned by Buchman's Group, as was poor old Dr. Bob. They were both taken advantage of when they were most vulnerable. They just carried the message. A couple of poor deluded souls on fire with Bill's reconstituted vision of sobriety through religious conversion. I guess you could look at Bill as playing Mussolini to Buchman's Hitler. Only in this case Mussolini escapes to Brazil, has plastic surgery, changes his identity, repackages fascism in a more palatable form, and then emerges victorious to peddle his wares in the very nation that just defeated him. Maybe Bill's depression would have gone away if he'd just smashed his own ego sufficiently, and not gone on and created the organization that has oppressed us all. Hell, if they'd had Prozac back in the 30's we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation. But they didn't so we are now subjected to a seemingly endless lineage of counterfeit do gooders passing on the abuse that was so freely given to them. And the beat goes on....................................................... Judith Stillwater wrote: > > Ya know...I was angry when I initially wrote this post, but responses like > this bring me beyond anger for myself, to concern for the welfare of others. > I'm glad legal action is being taken, and I'm glad alternatives to AA > are...even in existence now. But clearly AA and the treatment industry are > still doing what was done to me. I would be interested to know of the > suicide rate of people in 12 step programs relative to that of people who > are not in 12 step programs; I wonder how I could research that. > > Judith > > > > > Yes Joe... In fact, I once heard that " powerlessness " is the number one > complaint on suicide hotline calls. > > Apple > > > > The saddest part of this, apart that is from the obvious nonsense of > this type of " treatment " is that the highly dysfunctional ideas of > powerlessness, surrender and incurable disease embodied in the steps are > likly to cause or exacerbate depression rather than treat it. > > > Joe Berenbaum > > _______________________________________________________ > Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! > Try something new and discover more ways to save! > http://clickhere./click/381 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 1999 Report Share Posted July 4, 1999 Clearly AA and the Twelve Steps are major causes of depression. Just check with Bill . Even a string of mistresses, a cult following, chain smoking, and L.S.D. couldn't lift him from a depression strengthened and exacerbated by his own spirit hobbling screed. Actually I'm being a bit hard on Bill since AA is merely repackaged Oxford Group. The poor bugger was conned by Buchman's Group, as was poor old Dr. Bob. They were both taken advantage of when they were most vulnerable. They just carried the message. A couple of poor deluded souls on fire with Bill's reconstituted vision of sobriety through religious conversion. I guess you could look at Bill as playing Mussolini to Buchman's Hitler. Only in this case Mussolini escapes to Brazil, has plastic surgery, changes his identity, repackages fascism in a more palatable form, and then emerges victorious to peddle his wares in the very nation that just defeated him. Maybe Bill's depression would have gone away if he'd just smashed his own ego sufficiently, and not gone on and created the organization that has oppressed us all. Hell, if they'd had Prozac back in the 30's we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation. But they didn't so we are now subjected to a seemingly endless lineage of counterfeit do gooders passing on the abuse that was so freely given to them. And the beat goes on....................................................... Judith Stillwater wrote: > > Ya know...I was angry when I initially wrote this post, but responses like > this bring me beyond anger for myself, to concern for the welfare of others. > I'm glad legal action is being taken, and I'm glad alternatives to AA > are...even in existence now. But clearly AA and the treatment industry are > still doing what was done to me. I would be interested to know of the > suicide rate of people in 12 step programs relative to that of people who > are not in 12 step programs; I wonder how I could research that. > > Judith > > > > > Yes Joe... In fact, I once heard that " powerlessness " is the number one > complaint on suicide hotline calls. > > Apple > > > > The saddest part of this, apart that is from the obvious nonsense of > this type of " treatment " is that the highly dysfunctional ideas of > powerlessness, surrender and incurable disease embodied in the steps are > likly to cause or exacerbate depression rather than treat it. > > > Joe Berenbaum > > _______________________________________________________ > Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! > Try something new and discover more ways to save! > http://clickhere./click/381 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 > Hi Judith, > > I was just enjoying rereading this post of yours, and it made me think of something I copied for myself off of the RR website. Here it is. > > A Group places its own interests above the well-being of it's members. Groups must have sustained, growing membership, or they falter and cease to exist. Recovery groups thrive upon the dependence of addicted people who seek the implicit moral absolution of similarly troubled people who desire to procrastinate the painful decision to cease and desist from further use of alcohol and drugs. For this reprieve, they exchange their autonomy and identities as free people.> And this indoctrination runs deep, at least for me. It's like they knew where I was weakest and took careful aim at that vulnerable spot. Just to tell the truth about what happened to me, still makes me feel a little guilty, a little fearful of punishment. (But I'll get over it > I also watched a video on the 4th. that I believe would appeal to most of you free thinkers. It 's called " The Fountainhead " (B & W 1949) with . It's a movie that honors the individual and the indomitable human spirit, and I always come away feeling vindicated of my AA indignities after watching it. I get a similar feeling when I read all of your posts. This film is one of the many things that inspired my departure from AA. It's available for rent at many Video Stores. I'd love to hear your opinions if you should happen to give it a shot.> I think I read that book many years ago, and enjoyed it. I'll have to rent the movie, it sounds good. Judith _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 Hi Leigh, I pulled out 2 paragraphs from your post to respond to. Ever since I wrote about being angry about what happened to me, I've been feeling a little like a naughty kid. A little guilty. But this mailing list seems to be an appropriate place for dealing with the anger and the guilt, and I really appreciate the support I've gotten. Judith > I have been in intensive therapy since that happened, and I no longer attend any 12 step program. Which although today I don't drink, I still feel guilty for not going to meetings. > > LOL, again, I feel as if I may offend someone who reads this, and if so I apologize. I am only expressing MY Feelings, that pertain only to me. I make no Suggestion that this is what happens to everyone. This is entirely my own experience. > Leigh _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 In a message dated 7/5/99 4:22:27 AM Central Daylight Time, johnhollister@... writes: << Judith Stillwater wrote: > > gotta get this off my chest... > > I'm angry because I needed help specifically for depression in 1984 and > instead I got help for chemical dependency, even though an evaluation showed > that I was not chemically dependent. >> Hi, I totally understand this anger and statement. I too sought help for depression , 10 years ago, and not only was sent to AA, but, NA, CODA, and ACOA, the only thing they didn't send me and require me to attend in treatment was Sex anonymous (LOL, guess its because there hadn't been a group started there yet) When I was admitted to the hospital, I discovered I had Manic Depressive disorder. was put on a multitude of meds that were necessary to find what would work. Then on a program of Alcohol,etc recovery as well to try to work my way through. Mainly because I came from a Catholic family where alcohol was a way of life. The doctors felt, I had to learn NOT To Drink with the Medicine's that had been prescribed to control my depression. With that I agree. But, being thrown to the wolves in AA made my depressions much worse, and my self confidence , what little was left, was totally buried. I was a Wanna be AA for a couple of years , as I so wanted to belong somewhere. So I started believing more and more I was just an alcoholic, and tried to reason, that I did not have a depressive/mental disorder. But, it was not to be, for I was never accepted, and I didn't become the person that the people who talked AA to me wanted me to be. I began to be shunned, and shamed to the point, I wouldn't leave my home any longer or answer the phone. It increased my depression to worse suicidal episodes in the long run. I have been in intensive therapy since that happened, and I no longer attend any 12 step program. Which although today I don't drink, I still feel guilty for not going to meetings. More so than not attending Church on Sundays. I would say that is powerful programming. I didn't know there were others out there who had gone through Hell in AA and survived. I thank God this morning for having found this place to vent my anger freely outside of a therapist office, who by working with me the last 4 years feels I was wronged in being sent to AA. He believes it is needed When it is truly needed. But, then there are those it makes sicker in the end. LOL, again, I feel as if I may offend someone who reads this, and if so I apologize. I am only expressing MY Feelings, that pertain only to me. I make no Suggestion that this is what happens to everyone. This is entirely my own experience. Leigh ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 Hi Judith, I was just enjoying rereading this post of yours, and it made me think of something I copied for myself off of the RR website. Here it is. A Group places its own interests above the well-being of it's members. Groups must have sustained, growing membership, or they falter and cease to exist. Recovery groups thrive upon the dependence of addicted people who seek the implicit moral absolution of similarly troubled people who desire to procrastinate the painful decision to cease and desist from further use of alcohol and drugs. For this reprieve, they exchange their autonomy and identities as free people. I also watched a video on the 4th. that I believe would appeal to most of you free thinkers. It 's called " The Fountainhead " (B & W 1949) with . It's a movie that honors the individual and the indomitable human spirit, and I always come away feeling vindicated of my AA indignities after watching it. I get a similar feeling when I read all of your posts. This film is one of the many things that inspired my departure from AA. It's available for rent at many Video Stores. I'd love to hear your opinions if you should happen to give it a shot. Judith Stillwater wrote: > > gotta get this off my chest... > > I'm angry because I needed help specifically for depression in 1984 and > instead I got help for chemical dependency, even though an evaluation showed > that I was not chemically dependent. > > I'm angry because no other option was made available to me at the time. At > that point, my depression was very treatable, but I was not given the option > of specific treatment for depression (e.g., medication, therapy). > > I'm angry because the EAP (employee assistance program) counselor said, > " once we treat the chemical dependency, we'll treat the depression. " Then > the treatment for depression was a " 12 step therapist " who made me feel > ashamed for not finding all the answers in the 12 steps. In other words, > there was no treatment for the depression outside the 12 steps. In other > words, there was no treatment for the depression. In other words, they lied > to me. > > I'm angry because, even though I didn't consciously buy what AA was selling, > the message " if you disobey me you will die and go to hell " resonated with > what I learned as a child and has continued to affect me. > > I'm angry because even as I express this anger, part of me is saying > judgmentally, " self-pity: you're just feeling sorry for yourself, you're > blaming AA for your own mistakes and problems. " > > I'm angry. I'm not sorry or ashamed that I'm angry. I was hurt badly 15 > years ago. I was emotionally vulnerable and I was willing to work to get > better. But my vulnerability and willingness to work were used to > manipulate me into doing what was best for the treatment facility and AA, > instead of what was best for me. I don't give a good goddam what their > intentions were; I care about the outcome, I care that I was injured when I > was vulnerable. > > I've tried to write this post about 3 times and discarded it each time. > This time it gets sent. This is really how I feel--it's not up to someone > else to label it for me or interpret it for me, so they can " help " me > " recover. " My feelings, my life, are mine. My choices are mine. My > perceptions are valid and I can trust myself. > > I made the choice to let go of AA in 1985. Now, I'm making the choice to > let go of the remnants of 12 step thinking. My pain is valid. My anger is > valid. My emotions are not defects of character, and I do not need to > become ready to have God remove them. I do not have a lifelong, incurable > disease that makes me different from everyone else. > > I know I'm far from perfect, and I look forward to spending the rest of my > life living in accordance with MY OWN beliefs. Being agnostic, I am my own > higher power; I have a conscience, I have the ability to tell right from > wrong and make good choices. Most of all, I have the ability to figure out, > with the help of my friends and family and co-workers, what is good about me > and what I'd like to change. > > I do hold the EAP, the treatment facility, and AA accountable for the harm > they did to me. I am held accountable for my mistakes; I hold others > accountable for theirs. > > Thanks for letting me vent. > > Judith > > _______________________________________________________ > Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! > Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets > anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 Hi : Ayn Rand who wrote the book " The Fountainhead " was actually discussed on this list several months ago. Seems that her writing & philosophies make great AA detox material, and I do have an Ayn Rand link on my site. I perused the book but it looks really fat with tiny print, and I'm not in the mood right now. Maybe the film would be an adequate substitute. Apple > > I also watched a video on the 4th. that I believe would appeal to most > of you free thinkers. It 's called " The Fountainhead " (B & W 1949) with > . It's a movie that honors the individual and the indomitable > human spirit, and I always come away feeling vindicated of my AA > indignities after watching it. I get a similar feeling when I read all > of your posts. This film is one of the many things that inspired my > departure from AA. It's available for rent at many Video Stores. I'd > love to hear your opinions if you should happen to give it a shot. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 Hi Leigh; Leigh, it does happen to anyone with any kind of PD. We stagnate, then start a downward spiral, because what we REALLY believe and the 12step teachings are in opposition to each other. When we accomplish something, we want some Kudo's for what we did, not " It's great God did that for you! " No God keeps me sober, I don't put booze in my mouth, that's what keeps me sober. When unknown to me I needed therapy for PTSD, AA told me to take a moral inventory. Not much value in that except it made me depressed and the AA treatment for that was take another moral inventory and get off " The Pity Pot " . AA as someone said is the mother of all Crocks of Bullshit. Check out the folks who are doing well, the Guru's and you'll find most aren't doing nearly as well as you thought. I have an old pal who was my first sponsor. He has about 40 years sober. He's a sexual predator and has been director of many programs. Lots of pickin's among the vulnerable women. Everyone in AA is aware of it(Those that have known him a year or more), but AA depresses a person's critical thinking about anything or anybody related to AA. Thus whatever a member does is OK as long as they don't drink. I asked my old pal who was at the time director of The County Hospital, to help my sister in law line up some financial services through the county. She was using a walker to get around due to an accident that fractured both legs. She had two surgeies on both legs and was waiting to heal up for what was to be two more surgeries on the right leg which wasn't grafting properly. He went to her house and hit on her for sex, no sex, no help. I went ballistic, I had warned her he used to be a player, but never figured he'd stoop that low. She wasn't too thrilled with me, but she and I have worked that out. I don't speak to my old pal anymore. Rose and I figured out how to get things done and Rose did the leg work for her sis, but the low life bastard could have cut right through all the red tape for her. He is approaching 70 is why I thought he had probably mellowed, seems he got worse instead. He's a pretty typical AA Guru, something seriously wrong besides alcohol that goes untreated. Most of us here have had lots of experience with these sick folks and you won't find a lot of disagreement with what you've written. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 Hi Judith; Dog Gone; I contract all the repairs (Vcr's, game consoles etc) for a video rental outfit that covers three or so states. They're the one's that take care of Grocery Stores and the like for videos and players. Anyway, shouldn't be too dificult to find a copy of " The Fountainhead " I have some players to go back tomorrow and will check ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 Hi Carol; Love your posts, but I'm not an articulated typist, strictly hunt, peck and backspace, so I find it a bit difficult to keep up. I can't see anything wrong with the use of movies, except in treatment you're charged 50 dollars to watch one you could rent for 99 cents at ET Video. Also the person has to realize they won't get results in two hours. Then again, what about " The AA is The Only Way " message of " Days of Wine and Roses " ? In treatment I got charged for watching " The Velvetine Rabbit " and Father s Chalk Talk " and probably ten other Bradshaw type videos. There was at least one video per day, sometimes two and they charged us eight thousand three hundred, plus medical for two weeks. My bill was over 11 thousand, because they ran me through a bunch of diagnostic stuff that had been done by my doctor only three months previously. I asked them not to TB test me because I've had TB twice and get a raging positive, even after drug therapy. They did it over my objection and I was screwed up for three days with swelling in my left arm and shoulder. However I still had to do all the stuff including playing volleyball with one arm and shoulder swelled so badly they were difficult to move. I too late realized I was dealing with Quacks in a major hospital, but quit cooperating. They graduated me anyway. It was Hell Week that lasted two weeks. Later when I began drinking Rose wanted me to go back, I did but checked out two days later. They had Rose believing I was going to die and it was her fault for not having me comitted. Rose turned suicidal and wound up in Lutheran's Mental Unit and then a thirty day codependecy treatment, also 12step based. Rose finally got truly out from under 12steps two years ago, when she finally trusted after 6 years+ that it " Appeared " I was going to stay sober. I came to that conclusion at one month out of AA when the urge to drink went south and has never came back. It was constant while in AA. Rose quit meetings the same time I did, knew all the sick people we had met, but just took longer to break the 12step thinking, or at least to decide it was unhealthy. I imagine the Clancy people are much like we were, but took a different path to save themselves. Instead of facing the guilt horror of getting out, they went to a smaller better defined womb, and only feel the guilt of their former " Too Liberal " AA experience. One day they might have to face that they picked the greater evil, but probably not till Clancy dies. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 Hi , Thankyou for the reply to my " angry " letter. I just tapped into this forum yesterday and could have used it 8 years ago! Bless you, Leigh ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 I am curious how most people who finally " feel " free from the chains of AA, handle running into the " people, Places, and Thing's " encountered in aa? For I have been ignored in a market, at the park, and any public outing when I run into a member. Would love to hear some comments about this. Leigh ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 Thankyou , Your reply Means a lot. I too, am just beginning to " Believe in myself " and Trust my own Decisions. For so long, I didn't dare make one, without running it through my sponsor, who always found a way to make me " wrong, " and she was always making me " analyze my 'Motives'! Therefore, I thought I had NO creditability for anything. Now all I want to believe, is " It IS OK to LIVE! " and that " Things just are the way they are sometimes " like it or not, and I am not always responsible for all the circumstances around me, but I am responsible as to how I choose to work through them. In the rooms of AA I never felt like this. Once again, I am extremely grateful to have found this " safe " Place. Blessings, Leigh ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 Hi I posted recently how Rand created a cult of her own. I'm certainly not a fan of her political views (laissez-faire capitalism and no welfare state) but it's certaibyl true to say that they fit very well with the ultra-individualist American culture. Pete > Hi : > Ayn Rand who wrote the book " The Fountainhead " was actually discussed > on this list several months ago. Seems that her writing & philosophies > make great AA detox material, and I do have an Ayn Rand link on my > site. I perused the book but it looks really fat with tiny print, and > I'm not in the mood right now. Maybe the film would be an adequate > substitute. > Apple > > > > I also watched a video on the 4th. that I believe would appeal to most > > of you free thinkers. It 's called " The Fountainhead " (B & W 1949) with > > . It's a movie that honors the individual and the > indomitable > > human spirit, and I always come away feeling vindicated of my AA > > indignities after watching it. I get a similar feeling when I read all > > of your posts. This film is one of the many things that inspired my > > departure from AA. It's available for rent at many Video Stores. I'd > > love to hear your opinions if you should happen to give it a shot. > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Click Here to apply for a NextCard Internet Visa and start earning > FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program. > http://clickhere./click/449 > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > Pete ---------------------- Grant me the Strength To Change the Things I Can Not Accept PERSONALITY DISORDERS SUPPORT/INFO LIST: http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/personality-disorders.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 When I see anyone from AA I run as fast as I can. My mind is still to fresh and I work on deprogramming everyday. All I need is some moron from the rooms to start sloganing me. You know whats funny, though, I see alot more people that I used to party with, and I am not afraid of them. I find them alot less corerrsive then groupers!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 It is interesting that the family counsellors are now using movies to help people find their identities. In the Vancouver Sun this morning (front page) they surveyed family counsellors and found 90% use movies with their patients. " It's a Wonderful Life " for those who think life is about materialism, " Singles " for those who compromise themselves for love, " Wild Strawberries " for those conflicted over internal image and external persona, etc. There is a book about this, " Rent Two Films and Call Me In the Morning " by Hesley and several professional journal articles have begun to crop up with titles such as " Us of a Horror Film In Psychotherapy " and What is This Movie Doing in the Psychoanalytic Session? " Maybe someone can find these on the web? Sounds like what works for me. I saw Drunks with Faye Dunnaway, and Clalissta Flockhart and would think it therapy for those stuck in AA. It shows the innanity and circular no where state of the process. Carol Http://www.bcrecovernet.org is the right link. At 02:20 AM 7/5/99 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Judith, > >I was just enjoying rereading this post of yours, and it made me think >of something I copied for myself off of the RR website. Here it is. > >A Group places its own interests above the well-being of it's members. >Groups must have sustained, growing membership, or they falter and cease >to exist. Recovery groups thrive upon the dependence of addicted people >who seek the implicit moral absolution of similarly troubled people who >desire to procrastinate the painful decision to cease and desist from >further use of alcohol and drugs. For this reprieve, they exchange their >autonomy and identities as free people. > >I also watched a video on the 4th. that I believe would appeal to most >of you free thinkers. It 's called " The Fountainhead " (B & W 1949) with > . It's a movie that honors the individual and the indomitable >human spirit, and I always come away feeling vindicated of my AA >indignities after watching it. I get a similar feeling when I read all >of your posts. This film is one of the many things that inspired my >departure from AA. It's available for rent at many Video Stores. I'd >love to hear your opinions if you should happen to give it a shot. > > > >Judith Stillwater wrote: >> >> gotta get this off my chest... >> >> I'm angry because I needed help specifically for depression in 1984 and >> instead I got help for chemical dependency, even though an evaluation showed >> that I was not chemically dependent. >> >> I'm angry because no other option was made available to me at the time. At >> that point, my depression was very treatable, but I was not given the option >> of specific treatment for depression (e.g., medication, therapy). >> >> I'm angry because the EAP (employee assistance program) counselor said, >> " once we treat the chemical dependency, we'll treat the depression. " Then >> the treatment for depression was a " 12 step therapist " who made me feel >> ashamed for not finding all the answers in the 12 steps. In other words, >> there was no treatment for the depression outside the 12 steps. In other >> words, there was no treatment for the depression. In other words, they lied >> to me. >> >> I'm angry because, even though I didn't consciously buy what AA was selling, >> the message " if you disobey me you will die and go to hell " resonated with >> what I learned as a child and has continued to affect me. >> >> I'm angry because even as I express this anger, part of me is saying >> judgmentally, " self-pity: you're just feeling sorry for yourself, you're >> blaming AA for your own mistakes and problems. " >> >> I'm angry. I'm not sorry or ashamed that I'm angry. I was hurt badly 15 >> years ago. I was emotionally vulnerable and I was willing to work to get >> better. But my vulnerability and willingness to work were used to >> manipulate me into doing what was best for the treatment facility and AA, >> instead of what was best for me. I don't give a good goddam what their >> intentions were; I care about the outcome, I care that I was injured when I >> was vulnerable. >> >> I've tried to write this post about 3 times and discarded it each time. >> This time it gets sent. This is really how I feel--it's not up to someone >> else to label it for me or interpret it for me, so they can " help " me >> " recover. " My feelings, my life, are mine. My choices are mine. My >> perceptions are valid and I can trust myself. >> >> I made the choice to let go of AA in 1985. Now, I'm making the choice to >> let go of the remnants of 12 step thinking. My pain is valid. My anger is >> valid. My emotions are not defects of character, and I do not need to >> become ready to have God remove them. I do not have a lifelong, incurable >> disease that makes me different from everyone else. >> >> I know I'm far from perfect, and I look forward to spending the rest of my >> life living in accordance with MY OWN beliefs. Being agnostic, I am my own >> higher power; I have a conscience, I have the ability to tell right from >> wrong and make good choices. Most of all, I have the ability to figure out, >> with the help of my friends and family and co-workers, what is good about me >> and what I'd like to change. >> >> I do hold the EAP, the treatment facility, and AA accountable for the harm >> they did to me. I am held accountable for my mistakes; I hold others >> accountable for theirs. >> >> Thanks for letting me vent. >> >> Judith >> >> _______________________________________________________ >> Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! >> Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets >> anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368 >> >> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >> - Simplifying group communications > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Apply for a NextCard credit card: Save Money with a low intro rate and >no annual fee. Make Shopping Easy with Safe Shopping Guarantees, 1 Click >Shopping and Double Rewards. http://clickhere./click/448 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > --- Life is a candy store. Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 Don't over analyze this enjoy it for what it is. Simple God Given freedom of choice. It's that simple. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 Hi Leigh; Once you've left say AA and stay sober or OA and still lose weight or any of the XA's, the people still in them wait for you to get drunk, gain weight etc, because their belief depends on your failure. Thus they fear you, lest you succeed and all those meetings and grouper abuse aren't really necessary. They really couldn't avoid me without paying more money to get their electronics repaired, though some did take this option rather than acknowlege me. So with me they ptck arguments and tell me about my seven year dry drunk(time since I left). One suggested I go to treatment, I suggested he act his age of 42 and quit making his MOMMY clean his room. That's extremely insulting and I intended it to be. I don't usually treat folks that way but a 42 year old man who still lives free off his parents and saves the 600 a week he makes is just toooo tempting a target. Besides the fact he disgusts me. He's the Chair of the local treatment center meeting and is Boss Hog there. What you have done to them is serious to them. If you stood up in The Baptist Church and said " Jesus Christ is a myth and I can prove it. " Well that's about what you've done in AA terms. However, I will assure you that you can make it without the spirit crushing and ego smashing of the 12steps and AA groups. However, if AA is right that " Self-thought=insanity, then I'm mad as the hatter. Anger in regards to treatment by AA and the group is usual and predictable, so let it hang out if you want. I still get angry and sometimes realize I'm driving the keys like nails when writing about some experiences regarding AA. I didn't get a reasonably healthy attitude as quickly as has after leaving, but I have a feeling he cribbed for a while before the final break, while mine came the same day as the decision. Contrary to AA it's healthy to be angry with folks that hurt you, and anger never got anyone drunk, drinking alcohol is the cause of drunkeness, simple, don't drink it, never be drunk, what a principle! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 Leigh, welcome to the world of conditional Love. I often think AA's should change the phrase " Let us love you until you can love yourself " to " Let us love you until you become like us " . By the way, welcome to this group where you are free to be you and question anything you please. I have enjoyed your posts and completely relate to the relief you feel from being heard and validated for what you believe in your heart to be true. It's a great feeling. Like waking from some Orwellian nightmare! I just made my final break from AA on June 13th. and am gratified to be seeing in the new Millennium in Step Free. When I left AA I was clear that in my decision I was going to be ostracized, and that I was going to have to start from scratch socially. Luckily I have been padding my friendship pool with non-AA's over the past few years, and I still retain a handful of real friends from AA. Mostly I find that I would have little in common with AA people anyway. I'm done with drinking/using so I don't need to drone on about fears of drinking or engage in endless drunkalogs. It's over. The big challenge now is to fill all the time once spent on meetings and spending time with people in recovery. This group has been invaluable to me in reassembling my brain while I rebuild my Life. I've had to tear down the old one because the foundation(12 Steps) was not viable. It's been a philosophical Spring cleaning. I'm throwing out anything that doesn't ring true, and learning to believe in myself again. It's been an ongoing epiphany. I hope it all proves as rewarding and invigorating for you as it has for me. Marandtaz@... wrote: > > I am curious how most people who finally " feel " free from the chains of AA, > handle running into the " people, Places, and Thing's " encountered in aa? > For I have been ignored in a market, at the park, and any public outing when > I run into a member. > Would love to hear some comments about this. > Leigh > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! > Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets > anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 1999 Report Share Posted July 5, 1999 Hi Ben; Realistically it wouldn't be too awfully surprising if suicides among AA members were significantly higher than the general population. I mean 175% wouldn't be remarkable since all in the group are sick folks. However, I'd see 300% as an indicator of something seriously wrong. I don't know what the figures are and they would be hard to figure anyway. Guidelines and parameters would be difficult in the extreme to set for any accuracy at all. I think following folks with at least three months in AA who experience trauma, physical and or emotional like accidents, divorce, death in the family etc. Those you could compare well with the general population because those things are unrelated to drinking. If AA works as advertised the AA folks should have a lower suicide rate in those situations than the general population or the great unwashed. AA's have a built in support system so they should objectively speaking do better in than average. I doubt if they do. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 1999 Report Share Posted July 8, 1999 Hi Pete, I certainly wasn't suggesting that anybody get caught up in Rand's whole trip or anyone else's for that matter. The video proved helpful to me in the self empowerment dept. after years of submission to the powerless AA mindset. The film champions the individual, and after years of having my health and well being subordinated to the group, it breathed life back into my desiccated self -image and kept me going until I found you guys. Pete Watts wrote: > > Hi > > I posted recently how Rand created a cult of her own. I'm certainly not a > fan of her political views (laissez-faire capitalism and no welfare state) > but it's certaibyl true to say that they fit very well with the > ultra-individualist American culture. > > Pete > > > > > Hi : > > Ayn Rand who wrote the book " The Fountainhead " was actually discussed > > on this list several months ago. Seems that her writing & philosophies > > make great AA detox material, and I do have an Ayn Rand link on my > > site. I perused the book but it looks really fat with tiny print, and > > I'm not in the mood right now. Maybe the film would be an adequate > > substitute. > > Apple > > > > > > I also watched a video on the 4th. that I believe would appeal to most > > > of you free thinkers. It 's called " The Fountainhead " (B & W 1949) with > > > . It's a movie that honors the individual and the > > indomitable > > > human spirit, and I always come away feeling vindicated of my AA > > > indignities after watching it. I get a similar feeling when I read all > > > of your posts. This film is one of the many things that inspired my > > > departure from AA. It's available for rent at many Video Stores. I'd > > > love to hear your opinions if you should happen to give it a shot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Click Here to apply for a NextCard Internet Visa and start earning > > FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program. > > http://clickhere./click/449 > > > > > > > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > > > > Pete > ---------------------- > Grant me the Strength > To Change the Things I Can Not Accept > > PERSONALITY DISORDERS SUPPORT/INFO LIST: > http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/personality-disorders.html > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Click Here to apply for a NextCard Internet Visa and start earning > FREE travel in HALF the time with the NextCard Rew@rds Program. > http://clickhere./click/449 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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