Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 > Hi Judith, > > I resemble those remarks. I was suicidally depressed my whole first year in AA. I was also led to believe that the steps would take care of the depression. AA zealots declared medication for depression off limits. I substituted the one day at a time plan for one year at a time. I figured I'd stay sober a year and if it didn't get any better I could kill myself then. It is a miracle I survived.< My heart goes out to you. Treatment and AA brought on my first serious suicidal ideation, obsessive and uncontrollable thoughts of killing myself. That was AA's gift to me. >I was truly in agony and given how badly I felt, I feel like I am living proof that there is absolutely nothing that can make a person drink/use against their will. < This is a very good point. Wow...this is a REALLY good point. >To add insult to injury, I was constantly being brushed off with the phrase " You're right where you're supposed to be. " I often yearned for the day that I would find one of these wise old timers pinned beneath their car after the jack had collapsed, so I could utter the same time worn phrase that had been so freely given to me. < LOL!!!!! Thanks for an image that brings a smile to my face! Judith _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 > Hi Judith, > > I resemble those remarks. I was suicidally depressed my whole first year in AA. I was also led to believe that the steps would take care of the depression. AA zealots declared medication for depression off limits. I substituted the one day at a time plan for one year at a time. I figured I'd stay sober a year and if it didn't get any better I could kill myself then. It is a miracle I survived.< My heart goes out to you. Treatment and AA brought on my first serious suicidal ideation, obsessive and uncontrollable thoughts of killing myself. That was AA's gift to me. >I was truly in agony and given how badly I felt, I feel like I am living proof that there is absolutely nothing that can make a person drink/use against their will. < This is a very good point. Wow...this is a REALLY good point. >To add insult to injury, I was constantly being brushed off with the phrase " You're right where you're supposed to be. " I often yearned for the day that I would find one of these wise old timers pinned beneath their car after the jack had collapsed, so I could utter the same time worn phrase that had been so freely given to me. < LOL!!!!! Thanks for an image that brings a smile to my face! Judith _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 > I hope that you will become part of the class action suite which Rational Recovery is developing for people who are abused within the system. If there is a pay out it will bankrupt the addictions industry of the gov't.< I'd like to find out more about it--I've got the RR website bookmarked, so I'll check it out. > What a ridiculous bunch of nutcases you ran into. Sorry for your pain and madness. I hope you are mad enough to take action. This MUST stop!> Thanks, Carol. I totally agree that this must stop. Judith _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 > I hope that you will become part of the class action suite which Rational Recovery is developing for people who are abused within the system. If there is a pay out it will bankrupt the addictions industry of the gov't.< I'd like to find out more about it--I've got the RR website bookmarked, so I'll check it out. > What a ridiculous bunch of nutcases you ran into. Sorry for your pain and madness. I hope you are mad enough to take action. This MUST stop!> Thanks, Carol. I totally agree that this must stop. Judith _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 As well you should be, Judith!! I am here to tell you that the same shitty stuff is happening right here in 1999. My husband went to hisDr. yesterday a shrink an MD! and told him what he had been learning about the real AA and all the guy said, first and foremost your drinking must be dealt with and my husband said I haven't drank in 5 years and I astill can't leave the house. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 Hi Judith, I resemble those remarks. I was suicidally depressed my whole first year in AA. I was also led to believe that the steps would take care of the depression. AA zealots declared medication for depression off limits. I substituted the one day at a time plan for one year at a time. I figured I'd stay sober a year and if it didn't get any better I could kill myself then. It is a miracle I survived. I was truly in agony and given how badly I felt, I feel like I am living proof that there is absolutely nothing that can make a person drink/use against their will. To add insult to injury, I was constantly being brushed off with the phrase " You're right where you're supposed to be. " I often yearned for the day that I would find one of these wise old timers pinned beneath their car after the jack had collapsed, so I could utter the same time worn phrase that had been so freely given to me. Judith Stillwater wrote: > > gotta get this off my chest... > > I'm angry because I needed help specifically for depression in 1984 and > instead I got help for chemical dependency, even though an evaluation showed > that I was not chemically dependent. > > I'm angry because no other option was made available to me at the time. At > that point, my depression was very treatable, but I was not given the option > of specific treatment for depression (e.g., medication, therapy). > > I'm angry because the EAP (employee assistance program) counselor said, > " once we treat the chemical dependency, we'll treat the depression. " Then > the treatment for depression was a " 12 step therapist " who made me feel > ashamed for not finding all the answers in the 12 steps. In other words, > there was no treatment for the depression outside the 12 steps. In other > words, there was no treatment for the depression. In other words, they lied > to me. > > I'm angry because, even though I didn't consciously buy what AA was selling, > the message " if you disobey me you will die and go to hell " resonated with > what I learned as a child and has continued to affect me. > > I'm angry because even as I express this anger, part of me is saying > judgmentally, " self-pity: you're just feeling sorry for yourself, you're > blaming AA for your own mistakes and problems. " > > I'm angry. I'm not sorry or ashamed that I'm angry. I was hurt badly 15 > years ago. I was emotionally vulnerable and I was willing to work to get > better. But my vulnerability and willingness to work were used to > manipulate me into doing what was best for the treatment facility and AA, > instead of what was best for me. I don't give a good goddam what their > intentions were; I care about the outcome, I care that I was injured when I > was vulnerable. > > I've tried to write this post about 3 times and discarded it each time. > This time it gets sent. This is really how I feel--it's not up to someone > else to label it for me or interpret it for me, so they can " help " me > " recover. " My feelings, my life, are mine. My choices are mine. My > perceptions are valid and I can trust myself. > > I made the choice to let go of AA in 1985. Now, I'm making the choice to > let go of the remnants of 12 step thinking. My pain is valid. My anger is > valid. My emotions are not defects of character, and I do not need to > become ready to have God remove them. I do not have a lifelong, incurable > disease that makes me different from everyone else. > > I know I'm far from perfect, and I look forward to spending the rest of my > life living in accordance with MY OWN beliefs. Being agnostic, I am my own > higher power; I have a conscience, I have the ability to tell right from > wrong and make good choices. Most of all, I have the ability to figure out, > with the help of my friends and family and co-workers, what is good about me > and what I'd like to change. > > I do hold the EAP, the treatment facility, and AA accountable for the harm > they did to me. I am held accountable for my mistakes; I hold others > accountable for theirs. > > Thanks for letting me vent. > > Judith > > _______________________________________________________ > Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! > Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets > anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 Hi Judith, I resemble those remarks. I was suicidally depressed my whole first year in AA. I was also led to believe that the steps would take care of the depression. AA zealots declared medication for depression off limits. I substituted the one day at a time plan for one year at a time. I figured I'd stay sober a year and if it didn't get any better I could kill myself then. It is a miracle I survived. I was truly in agony and given how badly I felt, I feel like I am living proof that there is absolutely nothing that can make a person drink/use against their will. To add insult to injury, I was constantly being brushed off with the phrase " You're right where you're supposed to be. " I often yearned for the day that I would find one of these wise old timers pinned beneath their car after the jack had collapsed, so I could utter the same time worn phrase that had been so freely given to me. Judith Stillwater wrote: > > gotta get this off my chest... > > I'm angry because I needed help specifically for depression in 1984 and > instead I got help for chemical dependency, even though an evaluation showed > that I was not chemically dependent. > > I'm angry because no other option was made available to me at the time. At > that point, my depression was very treatable, but I was not given the option > of specific treatment for depression (e.g., medication, therapy). > > I'm angry because the EAP (employee assistance program) counselor said, > " once we treat the chemical dependency, we'll treat the depression. " Then > the treatment for depression was a " 12 step therapist " who made me feel > ashamed for not finding all the answers in the 12 steps. In other words, > there was no treatment for the depression outside the 12 steps. In other > words, there was no treatment for the depression. In other words, they lied > to me. > > I'm angry because, even though I didn't consciously buy what AA was selling, > the message " if you disobey me you will die and go to hell " resonated with > what I learned as a child and has continued to affect me. > > I'm angry because even as I express this anger, part of me is saying > judgmentally, " self-pity: you're just feeling sorry for yourself, you're > blaming AA for your own mistakes and problems. " > > I'm angry. I'm not sorry or ashamed that I'm angry. I was hurt badly 15 > years ago. I was emotionally vulnerable and I was willing to work to get > better. But my vulnerability and willingness to work were used to > manipulate me into doing what was best for the treatment facility and AA, > instead of what was best for me. I don't give a good goddam what their > intentions were; I care about the outcome, I care that I was injured when I > was vulnerable. > > I've tried to write this post about 3 times and discarded it each time. > This time it gets sent. This is really how I feel--it's not up to someone > else to label it for me or interpret it for me, so they can " help " me > " recover. " My feelings, my life, are mine. My choices are mine. My > perceptions are valid and I can trust myself. > > I made the choice to let go of AA in 1985. Now, I'm making the choice to > let go of the remnants of 12 step thinking. My pain is valid. My anger is > valid. My emotions are not defects of character, and I do not need to > become ready to have God remove them. I do not have a lifelong, incurable > disease that makes me different from everyone else. > > I know I'm far from perfect, and I look forward to spending the rest of my > life living in accordance with MY OWN beliefs. Being agnostic, I am my own > higher power; I have a conscience, I have the ability to tell right from > wrong and make good choices. Most of all, I have the ability to figure out, > with the help of my friends and family and co-workers, what is good about me > and what I'd like to change. > > I do hold the EAP, the treatment facility, and AA accountable for the harm > they did to me. I am held accountable for my mistakes; I hold others > accountable for theirs. > > Thanks for letting me vent. > > Judith > > _______________________________________________________ > Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! > Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets > anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 Tsk Tsk , It's not Sober to wish that a car collapses on your old AA cronies.... (unless of course, my ex-sponsors are under the car too) I mentioned the " you're just where you're supposed to be " bullshit in one of the essays on the deprogramming site). A friend of mine was suicidally depressed, and one of the BB Thumpers told her the same thing. This MF has recently gotten his certificate to be a drug & alcohol counsellor. I remember him telling me in early recovery when I was weak and distressed and had been abused that I shouldn't feel angry. Anger would just lead to relapse which would lead to jails, institutions or death. I have never felt suicidal myself, but self-abusive yes. I'd punish myself for being inadequate. If a boyfriend would treat me badly, I'd stop eating. I'd abuse my body for not being good enough. What cured my impulse to self-abuse, was shifting it around mentally. Exactly what you have done in your post with the sponsor under the car example! If someone treats me badly, I think about or verbally express my desire to give em a taste of their own medicine. I don't act on it of course, and I do try to get them out of my life ASAP. The big flashing neon " Abuse Me " has been removed from my forehead. I try not to take shit anymore. It's easy to take shit when I'm feeling weak, but I try my best to take care of myself so I don't spend a lot of time feeling vulnerable. If my taking the focus off them and putting it on me offends some people, well, " too bad, so sad " . Sometimes it's a good thing to not have the approval of certain people. For sure, I wouldn't seek approval from a Klu-Klux-Klansman, or Jim Baker the TV evangelist. It's very liberating not to seek approval, and I think people respect me more. Apple > Hi Judith, > > I resemble those remarks. I was suicidally depressed my whole first year > in AA. I was also led to believe that the steps would take care of the > depression. AA zealots declared medication for depression off limits. I > substituted the one day at a time plan for one year at a time. I figured > I'd stay sober a year and if it didn't get any better I could kill > myself then. It is a miracle I survived. I was truly in agony and given > how badly I felt, I feel like I am living proof that there is absolutely > nothing that can make a person drink/use against their will. To add > insult to injury, I was constantly being brushed off with the phrase > " You're right where you're supposed to be. " I often yearned for the day > that I would find one of these wise old timers pinned beneath their car > after the jack had collapsed, so I could utter the same time worn phrase > that had been so freely given to me. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 Tsk Tsk , It's not Sober to wish that a car collapses on your old AA cronies.... (unless of course, my ex-sponsors are under the car too) I mentioned the " you're just where you're supposed to be " bullshit in one of the essays on the deprogramming site). A friend of mine was suicidally depressed, and one of the BB Thumpers told her the same thing. This MF has recently gotten his certificate to be a drug & alcohol counsellor. I remember him telling me in early recovery when I was weak and distressed and had been abused that I shouldn't feel angry. Anger would just lead to relapse which would lead to jails, institutions or death. I have never felt suicidal myself, but self-abusive yes. I'd punish myself for being inadequate. If a boyfriend would treat me badly, I'd stop eating. I'd abuse my body for not being good enough. What cured my impulse to self-abuse, was shifting it around mentally. Exactly what you have done in your post with the sponsor under the car example! If someone treats me badly, I think about or verbally express my desire to give em a taste of their own medicine. I don't act on it of course, and I do try to get them out of my life ASAP. The big flashing neon " Abuse Me " has been removed from my forehead. I try not to take shit anymore. It's easy to take shit when I'm feeling weak, but I try my best to take care of myself so I don't spend a lot of time feeling vulnerable. If my taking the focus off them and putting it on me offends some people, well, " too bad, so sad " . Sometimes it's a good thing to not have the approval of certain people. For sure, I wouldn't seek approval from a Klu-Klux-Klansman, or Jim Baker the TV evangelist. It's very liberating not to seek approval, and I think people respect me more. Apple > Hi Judith, > > I resemble those remarks. I was suicidally depressed my whole first year > in AA. I was also led to believe that the steps would take care of the > depression. AA zealots declared medication for depression off limits. I > substituted the one day at a time plan for one year at a time. I figured > I'd stay sober a year and if it didn't get any better I could kill > myself then. It is a miracle I survived. I was truly in agony and given > how badly I felt, I feel like I am living proof that there is absolutely > nothing that can make a person drink/use against their will. To add > insult to injury, I was constantly being brushed off with the phrase > " You're right where you're supposed to be. " I often yearned for the day > that I would find one of these wise old timers pinned beneath their car > after the jack had collapsed, so I could utter the same time worn phrase > that had been so freely given to me. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 I hope that you will become part of the class action suite which Rational Recovery is developing for people who are abused within the system. If there is a pay out it will bankrupt the addictions industry of the gov't. What a ridiculous bunch of nutcases you ran into. Sorry for your pain and madness. I hope you are mad enough to take action. This MUST stop! Carol At 09:05 AM 7/3/99 PDT, you wrote: >gotta get this off my chest... > >I'm angry because I needed help specifically for depression in 1984 and >instead I got help for chemical dependency, even though an evaluation showed >that I was not chemically dependent. > >I'm angry because no other option was made available to me at the time. At >that point, my depression was very treatable, but I was not given the option >of specific treatment for depression (e.g., medication, therapy). > >I'm angry because the EAP (employee assistance program) counselor said, > " once we treat the chemical dependency, we'll treat the depression. " Then >the treatment for depression was a " 12 step therapist " who made me feel >ashamed for not finding all the answers in the 12 steps. In other words, >there was no treatment for the depression outside the 12 steps. In other >words, there was no treatment for the depression. In other words, they lied >to me. > >I'm angry because, even though I didn't consciously buy what AA was selling, >the message " if you disobey me you will die and go to hell " resonated with >what I learned as a child and has continued to affect me. > >I'm angry because even as I express this anger, part of me is saying >judgmentally, " self-pity: you're just feeling sorry for yourself, you're >blaming AA for your own mistakes and problems. " > >I'm angry. I'm not sorry or ashamed that I'm angry. I was hurt badly 15 >years ago. I was emotionally vulnerable and I was willing to work to get >better. But my vulnerability and willingness to work were used to >manipulate me into doing what was best for the treatment facility and AA, >instead of what was best for me. I don't give a good goddam what their >intentions were; I care about the outcome, I care that I was injured when I >was vulnerable. > >I've tried to write this post about 3 times and discarded it each time. >This time it gets sent. This is really how I feel--it's not up to someone >else to label it for me or interpret it for me, so they can " help " me > " recover. " My feelings, my life, are mine. My choices are mine. My >perceptions are valid and I can trust myself. > >I made the choice to let go of AA in 1985. Now, I'm making the choice to >let go of the remnants of 12 step thinking. My pain is valid. My anger is >valid. My emotions are not defects of character, and I do not need to >become ready to have God remove them. I do not have a lifelong, incurable >disease that makes me different from everyone else. > >I know I'm far from perfect, and I look forward to spending the rest of my >life living in accordance with MY OWN beliefs. Being agnostic, I am my own >higher power; I have a conscience, I have the ability to tell right from >wrong and make good choices. Most of all, I have the ability to figure out, >with the help of my friends and family and co-workers, what is good about me >and what I'd like to change. > >I do hold the EAP, the treatment facility, and AA accountable for the harm >they did to me. I am held accountable for my mistakes; I hold others >accountable for theirs. > >Thanks for letting me vent. > >Judith > > > > >_______________________________________________________ >Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! >Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets >anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > --- Life is a candy store. Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 I hope that you will become part of the class action suite which Rational Recovery is developing for people who are abused within the system. If there is a pay out it will bankrupt the addictions industry of the gov't. What a ridiculous bunch of nutcases you ran into. Sorry for your pain and madness. I hope you are mad enough to take action. This MUST stop! Carol At 09:05 AM 7/3/99 PDT, you wrote: >gotta get this off my chest... > >I'm angry because I needed help specifically for depression in 1984 and >instead I got help for chemical dependency, even though an evaluation showed >that I was not chemically dependent. > >I'm angry because no other option was made available to me at the time. At >that point, my depression was very treatable, but I was not given the option >of specific treatment for depression (e.g., medication, therapy). > >I'm angry because the EAP (employee assistance program) counselor said, > " once we treat the chemical dependency, we'll treat the depression. " Then >the treatment for depression was a " 12 step therapist " who made me feel >ashamed for not finding all the answers in the 12 steps. In other words, >there was no treatment for the depression outside the 12 steps. In other >words, there was no treatment for the depression. In other words, they lied >to me. > >I'm angry because, even though I didn't consciously buy what AA was selling, >the message " if you disobey me you will die and go to hell " resonated with >what I learned as a child and has continued to affect me. > >I'm angry because even as I express this anger, part of me is saying >judgmentally, " self-pity: you're just feeling sorry for yourself, you're >blaming AA for your own mistakes and problems. " > >I'm angry. I'm not sorry or ashamed that I'm angry. I was hurt badly 15 >years ago. I was emotionally vulnerable and I was willing to work to get >better. But my vulnerability and willingness to work were used to >manipulate me into doing what was best for the treatment facility and AA, >instead of what was best for me. I don't give a good goddam what their >intentions were; I care about the outcome, I care that I was injured when I >was vulnerable. > >I've tried to write this post about 3 times and discarded it each time. >This time it gets sent. This is really how I feel--it's not up to someone >else to label it for me or interpret it for me, so they can " help " me > " recover. " My feelings, my life, are mine. My choices are mine. My >perceptions are valid and I can trust myself. > >I made the choice to let go of AA in 1985. Now, I'm making the choice to >let go of the remnants of 12 step thinking. My pain is valid. My anger is >valid. My emotions are not defects of character, and I do not need to >become ready to have God remove them. I do not have a lifelong, incurable >disease that makes me different from everyone else. > >I know I'm far from perfect, and I look forward to spending the rest of my >life living in accordance with MY OWN beliefs. Being agnostic, I am my own >higher power; I have a conscience, I have the ability to tell right from >wrong and make good choices. Most of all, I have the ability to figure out, >with the help of my friends and family and co-workers, what is good about me >and what I'd like to change. > >I do hold the EAP, the treatment facility, and AA accountable for the harm >they did to me. I am held accountable for my mistakes; I hold others >accountable for theirs. > >Thanks for letting me vent. > >Judith > > > > >_______________________________________________________ >Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! >Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets >anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > --- Life is a candy store. Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 At 09:05 AM 7/3/99 PDT, you wrote: >gotta get this off my chest... > >I'm angry because I needed help specifically for depression in 1984 and >instead I got help for chemical dependency, even though an evaluation showed >that I was not chemically dependent. > >I'm angry because no other option was made available to me at the time. At >that point, my depression was very treatable, but I was not given the option >of specific treatment for depression (e.g., medication, therapy). I would say that this is totally insane- except that saying so reflects badly on insane people. This is like seeing a doctor for a heart condition and him saying we need to treat your broken leg first- then we'll treat your heart problem. You say- but I haven't got a broken leg!- and the doctor smiles knowingly and says- you'll see. The saddest part of this, apart that is from the obvious nonsense of this type of " treatment " is that the highly dysfunctional ideas of powerlessness, surrender and incurable disease embodied in the steps are likly to cause or exacerbate depression rather than treat it. Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 At 09:05 AM 7/3/99 PDT, you wrote: >gotta get this off my chest... > >I'm angry because I needed help specifically for depression in 1984 and >instead I got help for chemical dependency, even though an evaluation showed >that I was not chemically dependent. > >I'm angry because no other option was made available to me at the time. At >that point, my depression was very treatable, but I was not given the option >of specific treatment for depression (e.g., medication, therapy). I would say that this is totally insane- except that saying so reflects badly on insane people. This is like seeing a doctor for a heart condition and him saying we need to treat your broken leg first- then we'll treat your heart problem. You say- but I haven't got a broken leg!- and the doctor smiles knowingly and says- you'll see. The saddest part of this, apart that is from the obvious nonsense of this type of " treatment " is that the highly dysfunctional ideas of powerlessness, surrender and incurable disease embodied in the steps are likly to cause or exacerbate depression rather than treat it. Joe Berenbaum mailto:joe-b@... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 Apple, I didn't realize that the RR class action suit applied to depression related abuses as well. I'll have to look into it. Anger, the forbidden emotion, can certainly bring about positive results when channeled appropriately as is evidenced by the creation of RR and the AADeprogramming Website. I just love the AADeprogramming Website and the sense of humor it employs. Is it your creation? I think it would be great to assemble a collection of high quality cartoon images depicting the many injustices, lies, and absurdities of the 12 step phenomenon. Humor can be such an effective means of communication especially when dealing with a sacred cow like AA. It's so easy for those self righteous step nazis to peg us as a bunch of angry, humorless refuseniks. I still believe that laughter is the most effective medicine and living well the best revenge. AppleDTP@... wrote: > > Tsk Tsk , It's not Sober to wish that a car collapses on your old AA cronies.... > (unless of course, my ex-sponsors are under the car too) > I mentioned the " you're just where you're supposed to be " bullshit in one of the essays on the deprogramming site). A friend of mine was suicidally depressed, and one of the BB Thumpers told her the same thing. This MF has recently gotten his certificate to be a drug & alcohol counsellor. I remember him telling me in early recovery when I was weak and distressed and had been abused that I shouldn't feel angry. Anger would just lead to relapse which would lead to jails, institutions or death. > > I have never felt suicidal myself, but self-abusive yes. I'd punish myself for being inadequate. If a boyfriend would treat me badly, I'd stop eating. I'd abuse my body for not being good enough. What cured my impulse to self-abuse, was shifting it around mentally. Exactly what you have done in your post with the sponsor under the car example! If someone treats me badly, I think about or verbally express my desire to give em a taste of their own medicine. I don't act on it of course, and I do try to get them out of my life ASAP. The big flashing neon " Abuse Me " has been removed from my forehead. I try not to take shit anymore. It's easy to take shit when I'm feeling weak, but I try my best to take care of myself so I don't spend a lot of time feeling vulnerable. If my taking the focus off them and putting it on me offends some people, well, " too bad, so sad " . Sometimes it's a good thing to not have the approval of certain people. For sure, I wouldn't seek approval from a Klu-Klux-Klansman, or Jim Baker the TV evangelist. It's very liberating not to seek approval, and I think people respect me more. > Apple > > > Hi Judith, > > > > I resemble those remarks. I was suicidally depressed my whole first year > > in AA. I was also led to believe that the steps would take care of the > > depression. AA zealots declared medication for depression off limits. I > > substituted the one day at a time plan for one year at a time. I figured > > I'd stay sober a year and if it didn't get any better I could kill > > myself then. It is a miracle I survived. I was truly in agony and given > > how badly I felt, I feel like I am living proof that there is absolutely > > nothing that can make a person drink/use against their will. To add > > insult to injury, I was constantly being brushed off with the phrase > > " You're right where you're supposed to be. " I often yearned for the day > > that I would find one of these wise old timers pinned beneath their car > > after the jack had collapsed, so I could utter the same time worn phrase > > that had been so freely given to me. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! > Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets > anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 Apple, I didn't realize that the RR class action suit applied to depression related abuses as well. I'll have to look into it. Anger, the forbidden emotion, can certainly bring about positive results when channeled appropriately as is evidenced by the creation of RR and the AADeprogramming Website. I just love the AADeprogramming Website and the sense of humor it employs. Is it your creation? I think it would be great to assemble a collection of high quality cartoon images depicting the many injustices, lies, and absurdities of the 12 step phenomenon. Humor can be such an effective means of communication especially when dealing with a sacred cow like AA. It's so easy for those self righteous step nazis to peg us as a bunch of angry, humorless refuseniks. I still believe that laughter is the most effective medicine and living well the best revenge. AppleDTP@... wrote: > > Tsk Tsk , It's not Sober to wish that a car collapses on your old AA cronies.... > (unless of course, my ex-sponsors are under the car too) > I mentioned the " you're just where you're supposed to be " bullshit in one of the essays on the deprogramming site). A friend of mine was suicidally depressed, and one of the BB Thumpers told her the same thing. This MF has recently gotten his certificate to be a drug & alcohol counsellor. I remember him telling me in early recovery when I was weak and distressed and had been abused that I shouldn't feel angry. Anger would just lead to relapse which would lead to jails, institutions or death. > > I have never felt suicidal myself, but self-abusive yes. I'd punish myself for being inadequate. If a boyfriend would treat me badly, I'd stop eating. I'd abuse my body for not being good enough. What cured my impulse to self-abuse, was shifting it around mentally. Exactly what you have done in your post with the sponsor under the car example! If someone treats me badly, I think about or verbally express my desire to give em a taste of their own medicine. I don't act on it of course, and I do try to get them out of my life ASAP. The big flashing neon " Abuse Me " has been removed from my forehead. I try not to take shit anymore. It's easy to take shit when I'm feeling weak, but I try my best to take care of myself so I don't spend a lot of time feeling vulnerable. If my taking the focus off them and putting it on me offends some people, well, " too bad, so sad " . Sometimes it's a good thing to not have the approval of certain people. For sure, I wouldn't seek approval from a Klu-Klux-Klansman, or Jim Baker the TV evangelist. It's very liberating not to seek approval, and I think people respect me more. > Apple > > > Hi Judith, > > > > I resemble those remarks. I was suicidally depressed my whole first year > > in AA. I was also led to believe that the steps would take care of the > > depression. AA zealots declared medication for depression off limits. I > > substituted the one day at a time plan for one year at a time. I figured > > I'd stay sober a year and if it didn't get any better I could kill > > myself then. It is a miracle I survived. I was truly in agony and given > > how badly I felt, I feel like I am living proof that there is absolutely > > nothing that can make a person drink/use against their will. To add > > insult to injury, I was constantly being brushed off with the phrase > > " You're right where you're supposed to be. " I often yearned for the day > > that I would find one of these wise old timers pinned beneath their car > > after the jack had collapsed, so I could utter the same time worn phrase > > that had been so freely given to me. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! > Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets > anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368 > > eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 Abuse occurs when people are suffering a mental illness and are sent to AA. That AA is used as treatment for depression is an abomination. RR is on the case. I'm thinking of collecting horror stories for Canada so that when the group of victims of AA are combined we too can do class action. At the meeting of RR last night one nurse was told by the primere addictions and media specialist who is a staunch 12 stomper that if she didn't take this " counselling " she would DIE! Now there's client efficacy for you. $$$ for Healthquest and Dr. Ray Baker. Wipe out the whole crazy industry. On the ADDMED one fellow is pleading with another to include anon. for tobacco addiction conference. I wrote him and said that I hope he will use effective programs rather than the AA and its focus on failures at quitting rather than successes. Carol At 12:21 PM 7/3/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Apple, > >I didn't realize that the RR class action suit applied to depression >related abuses as well. I'll have to look into it. > >Anger, the forbidden emotion, can certainly bring about positive results >when channeled appropriately as is evidenced by the creation of RR and >the AADeprogramming Website. I just love the AADeprogramming Website >and the sense of humor it employs. Is it your creation? I think it >would be great to assemble a collection of high quality cartoon images >depicting the many injustices, lies, and absurdities of the 12 step >phenomenon. Humor can be such an effective means of communication >especially when dealing with a sacred cow like AA. It's so easy for >those self righteous step nazis to peg us as a bunch of angry, humorless >refuseniks. I still believe that laughter is the most effective medicine >and living well the best revenge. > > > >AppleDTP@... wrote: >> >> Tsk Tsk , It's not Sober to wish that a car collapses on your old AA cronies.... >> (unless of course, my ex-sponsors are under the car too) >> I mentioned the " you're just where you're supposed to be " bullshit in one of the essays on the deprogramming site). A friend of mine was suicidally depressed, and one of the BB Thumpers told her the same thing. This MF has recently gotten his certificate to be a drug & alcohol counsellor. I remember him telling me in early recovery when I was weak and distressed and had been abused that I shouldn't feel angry. Anger would just lead to relapse which would lead to jails, institutions or death. >> >> I have never felt suicidal myself, but self-abusive yes. I'd punish myself for being inadequate. If a boyfriend would treat me badly, I'd stop eating. I'd abuse my body for not being good enough. What cured my impulse to self-abuse, was shifting it around mentally. Exactly what you have done in your post with the sponsor under the car example! If someone treats me badly, I think about or verbally express my desire to give em a taste of their own medicine. I don't act on it of course, and I do try to get them out of my life ASAP. The big flashing neon " Abuse Me " has been removed from my forehead. I try not to take shit anymore. It's easy to take shit when I'm feeling weak, but I try my best to take care of myself so I don't spend a lot of time feeling vulnerable. If my taking the focus off them and putting it on me offends some people, well, " too bad, so sad " . Sometimes it's a good thing to not have the approval of certain people. For sure, I wouldn't seek approval from a Klu-Klux-Klansman, or Jim Baker the TV evangelist. It's very liberating not to seek approval, and I think people respect me more. >> Apple >> >> > Hi Judith, >> > >> > I resemble those remarks. I was suicidally depressed my whole first year >> > in AA. I was also led to believe that the steps would take care of the >> > depression. AA zealots declared medication for depression off limits. I >> > substituted the one day at a time plan for one year at a time. I figured >> > I'd stay sober a year and if it didn't get any better I could kill >> > myself then. It is a miracle I survived. I was truly in agony and given >> > how badly I felt, I feel like I am living proof that there is absolutely >> > nothing that can make a person drink/use against their will. To add >> > insult to injury, I was constantly being brushed off with the phrase >> > " You're right where you're supposed to be. " I often yearned for the day >> > that I would find one of these wise old timers pinned beneath their car >> > after the jack had collapsed, so I could utter the same time worn phrase >> > that had been so freely given to me. >> > >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! >> Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets >> anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368 >> >> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >> - Simplifying group communications > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >eGroups Spotlight: > " Egg and Egg Products " - There's more to eggs than eating them for > breakfast! If you are a producer or a user this group is for you. > http://clickhere./click/114 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > --- Life is a candy store. Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 Abuse occurs when people are suffering a mental illness and are sent to AA. That AA is used as treatment for depression is an abomination. RR is on the case. I'm thinking of collecting horror stories for Canada so that when the group of victims of AA are combined we too can do class action. At the meeting of RR last night one nurse was told by the primere addictions and media specialist who is a staunch 12 stomper that if she didn't take this " counselling " she would DIE! Now there's client efficacy for you. $$$ for Healthquest and Dr. Ray Baker. Wipe out the whole crazy industry. On the ADDMED one fellow is pleading with another to include anon. for tobacco addiction conference. I wrote him and said that I hope he will use effective programs rather than the AA and its focus on failures at quitting rather than successes. Carol At 12:21 PM 7/3/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Apple, > >I didn't realize that the RR class action suit applied to depression >related abuses as well. I'll have to look into it. > >Anger, the forbidden emotion, can certainly bring about positive results >when channeled appropriately as is evidenced by the creation of RR and >the AADeprogramming Website. I just love the AADeprogramming Website >and the sense of humor it employs. Is it your creation? I think it >would be great to assemble a collection of high quality cartoon images >depicting the many injustices, lies, and absurdities of the 12 step >phenomenon. Humor can be such an effective means of communication >especially when dealing with a sacred cow like AA. It's so easy for >those self righteous step nazis to peg us as a bunch of angry, humorless >refuseniks. I still believe that laughter is the most effective medicine >and living well the best revenge. > > > >AppleDTP@... wrote: >> >> Tsk Tsk , It's not Sober to wish that a car collapses on your old AA cronies.... >> (unless of course, my ex-sponsors are under the car too) >> I mentioned the " you're just where you're supposed to be " bullshit in one of the essays on the deprogramming site). A friend of mine was suicidally depressed, and one of the BB Thumpers told her the same thing. This MF has recently gotten his certificate to be a drug & alcohol counsellor. I remember him telling me in early recovery when I was weak and distressed and had been abused that I shouldn't feel angry. Anger would just lead to relapse which would lead to jails, institutions or death. >> >> I have never felt suicidal myself, but self-abusive yes. I'd punish myself for being inadequate. If a boyfriend would treat me badly, I'd stop eating. I'd abuse my body for not being good enough. What cured my impulse to self-abuse, was shifting it around mentally. Exactly what you have done in your post with the sponsor under the car example! If someone treats me badly, I think about or verbally express my desire to give em a taste of their own medicine. I don't act on it of course, and I do try to get them out of my life ASAP. The big flashing neon " Abuse Me " has been removed from my forehead. I try not to take shit anymore. It's easy to take shit when I'm feeling weak, but I try my best to take care of myself so I don't spend a lot of time feeling vulnerable. If my taking the focus off them and putting it on me offends some people, well, " too bad, so sad " . Sometimes it's a good thing to not have the approval of certain people. For sure, I wouldn't seek approval from a Klu-Klux-Klansman, or Jim Baker the TV evangelist. It's very liberating not to seek approval, and I think people respect me more. >> Apple >> >> > Hi Judith, >> > >> > I resemble those remarks. I was suicidally depressed my whole first year >> > in AA. I was also led to believe that the steps would take care of the >> > depression. AA zealots declared medication for depression off limits. I >> > substituted the one day at a time plan for one year at a time. I figured >> > I'd stay sober a year and if it didn't get any better I could kill >> > myself then. It is a miracle I survived. I was truly in agony and given >> > how badly I felt, I feel like I am living proof that there is absolutely >> > nothing that can make a person drink/use against their will. To add >> > insult to injury, I was constantly being brushed off with the phrase >> > " You're right where you're supposed to be. " I often yearned for the day >> > that I would find one of these wise old timers pinned beneath their car >> > after the jack had collapsed, so I could utter the same time worn phrase >> > that had been so freely given to me. >> > >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> FreeShop is the #1 place for free and trial offers and great deals! >> Try something new and find out how you could win two round-trip tickets >> anywhere in the U.S.! http://clickhere./click/368 >> >> eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free >> - Simplifying group communications > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >eGroups Spotlight: > " Egg and Egg Products " - There's more to eggs than eating them for > breakfast! If you are a producer or a user this group is for you. > http://clickhere./click/114 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > > > > --- Life is a candy store. Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at Http:\\www.BCRecovernet.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 > >... I'm angry because I needed help specifically for depression in 1984 and > instead I got help for chemical dependency, even though an evaluation showed > that I was not chemically dependent. > > I'm angry because no other option was made available to me at the time. At > that point, my depression was very treatable, but I was not given the option > of specific treatment for depression (e.g., medication, therapy). > > I'm angry because the EAP (employee assistance program) counselor said, > " once we treat the chemical dependency, we'll treat the depression. " Then > the treatment for depression was a " 12 step therapist " who made me feel > ashamed for not finding all the answers in the 12 steps. In other words, > there was no treatment for the depression outside the 12 steps. In other > words, there was no treatment for the depression. In other words, they lied > to me. > > I'm angry because, even though I didn't consciously buy what AA was selling, > the message " if you disobey me you will die and go to hell " resonated with > what I learned as a child and has continued to affect me. > > I'm angry because even as I express this anger, part of me is saying > judgmentally, " self-pity: you're just feeling sorry for yourself, you're > blaming AA for your own mistakes and problems. " > > I'm angry. I'm not sorry or ashamed that I'm angry. I was hurt badly 15 > years ago. I was emotionally vulnerable and I was willing to work to get > better. But my vulnerability and willingness to work were used to > manipulate me into doing what was best for the treatment facility and AA, > instead of what was best for me. I don't give a good goddam what their > intentions were; I care about the outcome, I care that I was injured when I > was vulnerable. > > I've tried to write this post about 3 times and discarded it each time. > This time it gets sent. This is really how I feel--it's not up to someone > else to label it for me or interpret it for me, so they can " help " me > " recover. " My feelings, my life, are mine. My choices are mine. My > perceptions are valid and I can trust myself. > > I made the choice to let go of AA in 1985. Now, I'm making the choice to > let go of the remnants of 12 step thinking. My pain is valid. My anger is > valid. My emotions are not defects of character, and I do not need to > become ready to have God remove them. I do not have a lifelong, incurable > disease that makes me different from everyone else. > > I know I'm far from perfect, and I look forward to spending the rest of my > life living in accordance with MY OWN beliefs. Being agnostic, I am my own > higher power; I have a conscience, I have the ability to tell right from > wrong and make good choices. Most of all, I have the ability to figure out, > with the help of my friends and family and co-workers, what is good about me > and what I'd like to change. > > I do hold the EAP, the treatment facility, and AA accountable for the harm > they did to me. I am held accountable for my mistakes; I hold others > accountable for theirs. > > Thanks for letting me vent. > > Judith > -------------------------------- WOW!! What a wild coincidence! I was just responding to a week-old post of yours on this very topic, and my Deja cookie crumbled, so I stored the post in the keyboard cache and came to the 12sf website to re-send it... and you're venting on the same topic!! Our stories have many similarities, Judith... I share your pain and outrage. Here is the post I was about to send; I hope the information I've included is of use to you,should you decide to take action. Mis-diagnosis and inappropriate treatment orders are both violations of the CEAP Code of Professional Conduct. Here's the post. --- Hi Judith, , and list -- I was just cleaning out my mailbox & reading some messages I'd missed, and came across this one (and its antecedents). Though it might be a bit late to respond, I would like to add my comments, as it hits quite close to home. My own pain was caused not at all by AA itself or its philosophy per se, as I never actually was an AA member. (They say " you're a member if you say you are " and I always said I wasn't, that I was being required to attend meetings to keep my job. I never got a sponsor or ever tried to " work the steps " for a minute.) My pain was caused ENTIRELY by the EAP of my company. As in any of the " helping professions " there are good ones, bad ones, and downright horrible ones, and the head honcho EAP in my company is one of the most arrogant control-freak creeps ever to disgrace the EAP or social work professions. In fact, I think he probably has a narcissistic personality disorder. But what's worse is that the structure in my agency allows him and his subordinates absolute free reign to fulfill all their control-freak fantasies. Our contract (agreed to by our useless union) states that any employee found " positive " on a random Breathalyzer (regardless of job performance record, and without any professional determination of " alcoholism " ) will be placed on unpaid leave of absence FOR AS LONG AS EAP DEEMS NECESSARY, must undergo WHATEVER " REHABILITATION " EAP REQUIRES, and must obey all directives of EAP, OR FACE DISMISSAL. They revel in the power thus accorded them. The very first thing they " require " is for all employees in their clutches to state that they have an " incurable disease. " God forbid you should be " rigorously honest " and say you had a beer with lunch, it was stupid, but you're not an alcoholic and have never been in any trouble on or off the job. Mr. EAP actually smirks while saying, " You will remain suspended without pay until you admit you have the incurable disease of alcoholism over which you are powerless. " It only gets worse from there -- forced outpatient " treatment " using a trumped-up " diagnosis " of " chemical dependency " (they told us all addictions are the same and all are progressive so coke-heads, junkies, casual pot-smokers, alcoholics, casual beer-drinkers etc. were all in identical " treatment " together), XA meetings (didn't matter which " A " ) 5 times weekly, EAP " quizzes " on steps and slogans (we had to memorize them!) etc. etc. etc. I was in therapy at the time, thank God, with an excellent and very ethical psychologist. He was aghast at what they were doing. Not being a stepper or familiar with " recovery " mythology, he at first assumed the logical thing -- that after 30 days or so of negative drug/alcohol tests, they would conclude there was no addiction present and discharge me from treatment. He also wrote a letter to Mr. EAP telling him that in his (Dr.'s) opinion, I showed no sign of any alcohol dependency disorder and was being privately treated for " personal issues " i.e. stress and depression, and in his opinion was entirely fit for duty. Mr. EAP simply smirked again and said " Addicts and alcoholics are very good at manipulating therapists into writing letters on their behalf. " In that one dismissive comment, he was both implying that Dr. G. was a lily-livered quack who let himself be led around by the nose by his patients, and that he (Mr. EAP) was so far,far superior as to be able to see through these machinations. And besides, the contract says EAP is in charge, not some PhD!!! He tried to order me to stop seeing my therapist, and I told him no way, Dr. G. was doing legitimate counseling, unlike EAP. I remained suspended without pay for 7 1/2 months under EAP orders, during which time I was tested for drugs and alcohol 110 times, all negative of course. But they kept calling me " an alcoholic who's just sober for today. " My depression and anxiety deepened considerably of course -- I had no idea when they would let me go back to work, and no idea what psychological torture Mr. EAP would devise next. I never did let Mr. EAP have the victory he truly wanted -- I never said I had a disease, and never told him the EAP program was helping me recover (something else he tries to coerce people into saying). I was finally " allowed " to stop going to AA meetings after I filed a First Amendment lawsuit (because my company is part of a state agency and the EAP is part of company management). The settlement requires the EAP to offer non-12-step, non-religious programs in addition to XA, but doesn't address the fraudulent diagnosis/unnecessary treatment issue, as that's not a constitutional claim. The concept of Employee Assistance Programs is not a bad one -- they're supposed to be company-and-union sponsored counseling centers where employees can go voluntarily to resolve problems that are adversely affecting job performance, before they get into enough trouble to get fired. They were NEVER meant to be disciplinary, coercive, or threatening in nature, and EAP counselors were intended to recommend removal from service only as an emergency measure, and help employees get back to work as soon as possible, NOT to suspend people with excellent work records just for personal kicks and power. The " CEAP " title is a national certification of the Employee Assistance Professionals Association. They have a detailed Code of Professional Conduct which can be viewed at: http://eap-association.com/Certification/Code _of_Professional_Conduct/code_of_professional _conduct.html The EAP in my company has violated many sections of this code. I filed a complaint with them, but was forced to withdraw it as part of the settlement of the federal suit. I know there are some EAP's who really do care and try to help rather than hurt. But the one I was exposed to was a nightmare. It left me feeling mentally raped. p.s. They have a plaque on the wall attesting to their extraordinarily high " success rate " . I'm living proof that these statistics are worthless -- they take people like me who never had an addiction problem into their program, and then when we're not addicts afterwards either they call us " program successes " . ~Railroad Rita ---------------------------------- On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 06:29:31 Judith Stillwater wrote: >I'm not sure what to say but I feel I need to reply. > >My experience with an EAP hurt me. The only other thing that has happened >to me as an adult which hurt me as badly was dealing with infertility. > >I didn't share my experience as a personal slam against or anyone >else. I shared it because...that's what people do here, they share stories >about how they've been hurt by the 12 steps. > >judith > >On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 05:38:40 -0700, WROSE2@... wrote: > >> Hello People- >> I used to be an EAP with the UAW. I got thought of as a Narc and treated >as an outsider. I hated it. I just wanted to help people with their >problems. Granted, being the Big Book thumper I was at the time, that >certainly played a humongous part!! The only thing I gained in my years >serving was a feeling that I had helped a fellow human being. In the UAW, >they don't pay you extra for following up on people when you visit them at >the treatment center or hospital after hours, but I wanted to do it. (They >didn't encourage it, either). I'm not really tooting my own horn, here. >Just thought I'd share another side of it. >> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 > >... I'm angry because I needed help specifically for depression in 1984 and > instead I got help for chemical dependency, even though an evaluation showed > that I was not chemically dependent. > > I'm angry because no other option was made available to me at the time. At > that point, my depression was very treatable, but I was not given the option > of specific treatment for depression (e.g., medication, therapy). > > I'm angry because the EAP (employee assistance program) counselor said, > " once we treat the chemical dependency, we'll treat the depression. " Then > the treatment for depression was a " 12 step therapist " who made me feel > ashamed for not finding all the answers in the 12 steps. In other words, > there was no treatment for the depression outside the 12 steps. In other > words, there was no treatment for the depression. In other words, they lied > to me. > > I'm angry because, even though I didn't consciously buy what AA was selling, > the message " if you disobey me you will die and go to hell " resonated with > what I learned as a child and has continued to affect me. > > I'm angry because even as I express this anger, part of me is saying > judgmentally, " self-pity: you're just feeling sorry for yourself, you're > blaming AA for your own mistakes and problems. " > > I'm angry. I'm not sorry or ashamed that I'm angry. I was hurt badly 15 > years ago. I was emotionally vulnerable and I was willing to work to get > better. But my vulnerability and willingness to work were used to > manipulate me into doing what was best for the treatment facility and AA, > instead of what was best for me. I don't give a good goddam what their > intentions were; I care about the outcome, I care that I was injured when I > was vulnerable. > > I've tried to write this post about 3 times and discarded it each time. > This time it gets sent. This is really how I feel--it's not up to someone > else to label it for me or interpret it for me, so they can " help " me > " recover. " My feelings, my life, are mine. My choices are mine. My > perceptions are valid and I can trust myself. > > I made the choice to let go of AA in 1985. Now, I'm making the choice to > let go of the remnants of 12 step thinking. My pain is valid. My anger is > valid. My emotions are not defects of character, and I do not need to > become ready to have God remove them. I do not have a lifelong, incurable > disease that makes me different from everyone else. > > I know I'm far from perfect, and I look forward to spending the rest of my > life living in accordance with MY OWN beliefs. Being agnostic, I am my own > higher power; I have a conscience, I have the ability to tell right from > wrong and make good choices. Most of all, I have the ability to figure out, > with the help of my friends and family and co-workers, what is good about me > and what I'd like to change. > > I do hold the EAP, the treatment facility, and AA accountable for the harm > they did to me. I am held accountable for my mistakes; I hold others > accountable for theirs. > > Thanks for letting me vent. > > Judith > -------------------------------- WOW!! What a wild coincidence! I was just responding to a week-old post of yours on this very topic, and my Deja cookie crumbled, so I stored the post in the keyboard cache and came to the 12sf website to re-send it... and you're venting on the same topic!! Our stories have many similarities, Judith... I share your pain and outrage. Here is the post I was about to send; I hope the information I've included is of use to you,should you decide to take action. Mis-diagnosis and inappropriate treatment orders are both violations of the CEAP Code of Professional Conduct. Here's the post. --- Hi Judith, , and list -- I was just cleaning out my mailbox & reading some messages I'd missed, and came across this one (and its antecedents). Though it might be a bit late to respond, I would like to add my comments, as it hits quite close to home. My own pain was caused not at all by AA itself or its philosophy per se, as I never actually was an AA member. (They say " you're a member if you say you are " and I always said I wasn't, that I was being required to attend meetings to keep my job. I never got a sponsor or ever tried to " work the steps " for a minute.) My pain was caused ENTIRELY by the EAP of my company. As in any of the " helping professions " there are good ones, bad ones, and downright horrible ones, and the head honcho EAP in my company is one of the most arrogant control-freak creeps ever to disgrace the EAP or social work professions. In fact, I think he probably has a narcissistic personality disorder. But what's worse is that the structure in my agency allows him and his subordinates absolute free reign to fulfill all their control-freak fantasies. Our contract (agreed to by our useless union) states that any employee found " positive " on a random Breathalyzer (regardless of job performance record, and without any professional determination of " alcoholism " ) will be placed on unpaid leave of absence FOR AS LONG AS EAP DEEMS NECESSARY, must undergo WHATEVER " REHABILITATION " EAP REQUIRES, and must obey all directives of EAP, OR FACE DISMISSAL. They revel in the power thus accorded them. The very first thing they " require " is for all employees in their clutches to state that they have an " incurable disease. " God forbid you should be " rigorously honest " and say you had a beer with lunch, it was stupid, but you're not an alcoholic and have never been in any trouble on or off the job. Mr. EAP actually smirks while saying, " You will remain suspended without pay until you admit you have the incurable disease of alcoholism over which you are powerless. " It only gets worse from there -- forced outpatient " treatment " using a trumped-up " diagnosis " of " chemical dependency " (they told us all addictions are the same and all are progressive so coke-heads, junkies, casual pot-smokers, alcoholics, casual beer-drinkers etc. were all in identical " treatment " together), XA meetings (didn't matter which " A " ) 5 times weekly, EAP " quizzes " on steps and slogans (we had to memorize them!) etc. etc. etc. I was in therapy at the time, thank God, with an excellent and very ethical psychologist. He was aghast at what they were doing. Not being a stepper or familiar with " recovery " mythology, he at first assumed the logical thing -- that after 30 days or so of negative drug/alcohol tests, they would conclude there was no addiction present and discharge me from treatment. He also wrote a letter to Mr. EAP telling him that in his (Dr.'s) opinion, I showed no sign of any alcohol dependency disorder and was being privately treated for " personal issues " i.e. stress and depression, and in his opinion was entirely fit for duty. Mr. EAP simply smirked again and said " Addicts and alcoholics are very good at manipulating therapists into writing letters on their behalf. " In that one dismissive comment, he was both implying that Dr. G. was a lily-livered quack who let himself be led around by the nose by his patients, and that he (Mr. EAP) was so far,far superior as to be able to see through these machinations. And besides, the contract says EAP is in charge, not some PhD!!! He tried to order me to stop seeing my therapist, and I told him no way, Dr. G. was doing legitimate counseling, unlike EAP. I remained suspended without pay for 7 1/2 months under EAP orders, during which time I was tested for drugs and alcohol 110 times, all negative of course. But they kept calling me " an alcoholic who's just sober for today. " My depression and anxiety deepened considerably of course -- I had no idea when they would let me go back to work, and no idea what psychological torture Mr. EAP would devise next. I never did let Mr. EAP have the victory he truly wanted -- I never said I had a disease, and never told him the EAP program was helping me recover (something else he tries to coerce people into saying). I was finally " allowed " to stop going to AA meetings after I filed a First Amendment lawsuit (because my company is part of a state agency and the EAP is part of company management). The settlement requires the EAP to offer non-12-step, non-religious programs in addition to XA, but doesn't address the fraudulent diagnosis/unnecessary treatment issue, as that's not a constitutional claim. The concept of Employee Assistance Programs is not a bad one -- they're supposed to be company-and-union sponsored counseling centers where employees can go voluntarily to resolve problems that are adversely affecting job performance, before they get into enough trouble to get fired. They were NEVER meant to be disciplinary, coercive, or threatening in nature, and EAP counselors were intended to recommend removal from service only as an emergency measure, and help employees get back to work as soon as possible, NOT to suspend people with excellent work records just for personal kicks and power. The " CEAP " title is a national certification of the Employee Assistance Professionals Association. They have a detailed Code of Professional Conduct which can be viewed at: http://eap-association.com/Certification/Code _of_Professional_Conduct/code_of_professional _conduct.html The EAP in my company has violated many sections of this code. I filed a complaint with them, but was forced to withdraw it as part of the settlement of the federal suit. I know there are some EAP's who really do care and try to help rather than hurt. But the one I was exposed to was a nightmare. It left me feeling mentally raped. p.s. They have a plaque on the wall attesting to their extraordinarily high " success rate " . I'm living proof that these statistics are worthless -- they take people like me who never had an addiction problem into their program, and then when we're not addicts afterwards either they call us " program successes " . ~Railroad Rita ---------------------------------- On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 06:29:31 Judith Stillwater wrote: >I'm not sure what to say but I feel I need to reply. > >My experience with an EAP hurt me. The only other thing that has happened >to me as an adult which hurt me as badly was dealing with infertility. > >I didn't share my experience as a personal slam against or anyone >else. I shared it because...that's what people do here, they share stories >about how they've been hurt by the 12 steps. > >judith > >On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 05:38:40 -0700, WROSE2@... wrote: > >> Hello People- >> I used to be an EAP with the UAW. I got thought of as a Narc and treated >as an outsider. I hated it. I just wanted to help people with their >problems. Granted, being the Big Book thumper I was at the time, that >certainly played a humongous part!! The only thing I gained in my years >serving was a feeling that I had helped a fellow human being. In the UAW, >they don't pay you extra for following up on people when you visit them at >the treatment center or hospital after hours, but I wanted to do it. (They >didn't encourage it, either). I'm not really tooting my own horn, here. >Just thought I'd share another side of it. >> >> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 Hey Carol; I have depression and PTSD and was told in treatment that AA would fix it as late as 1989. Problem was I didn't even stay sober in AA and I damnwell tried. The proof that I tried is that after leaving AA and my three months sober two weeks drunk merry go round, I'll be 9 years in october of this year. My effort wasn't the fault, it was the god damned abuse I allowed to be heaped on me at the direction of " Treatment Counsellors " who I later found out had less education than me. I only have high school and a few community college courses in Psyche, Socy, Criminology and Law. I have no degrees. I should have been wise to that because I was a counsellor in a tx center in Des Moines in 68-9 and all I had then was high school. All that was required was memorizing twelve lectures and know the twelve steps back then. Guess I figured things had improved, but if it makes money, don't fix it, seems the attitude. There are too many AA's in government positions to totally shut down the 12step treatments, but I think insurance companies might be able to manage it. As twelve steps is declared a religion, I don't believe insurance companies are obliged to pay. However 12 steps is cheaper than the treatment really needed so they may stick with it till the repitition gets too expensive. You can pay 6 AA counsellors for what a real pro like a Clinical Psychologist will cost. However, it's cheaper in human terms to pay the psychologist because the shrink has a far better chance of success. I think eventually insurance companies will take a longer view and prefer to pay the shrink now instead of later after paying for twenty 12step treatments. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 Hey Carol; I have depression and PTSD and was told in treatment that AA would fix it as late as 1989. Problem was I didn't even stay sober in AA and I damnwell tried. The proof that I tried is that after leaving AA and my three months sober two weeks drunk merry go round, I'll be 9 years in october of this year. My effort wasn't the fault, it was the god damned abuse I allowed to be heaped on me at the direction of " Treatment Counsellors " who I later found out had less education than me. I only have high school and a few community college courses in Psyche, Socy, Criminology and Law. I have no degrees. I should have been wise to that because I was a counsellor in a tx center in Des Moines in 68-9 and all I had then was high school. All that was required was memorizing twelve lectures and know the twelve steps back then. Guess I figured things had improved, but if it makes money, don't fix it, seems the attitude. There are too many AA's in government positions to totally shut down the 12step treatments, but I think insurance companies might be able to manage it. As twelve steps is declared a religion, I don't believe insurance companies are obliged to pay. However 12 steps is cheaper than the treatment really needed so they may stick with it till the repitition gets too expensive. You can pay 6 AA counsellors for what a real pro like a Clinical Psychologist will cost. However, it's cheaper in human terms to pay the psychologist because the shrink has a far better chance of success. I think eventually insurance companies will take a longer view and prefer to pay the shrink now instead of later after paying for twenty 12step treatments. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 Dear Judith; Being angry about being hurt by folks who say they are going to help is hardly self pity or a character defect. Any other reaction would show you weren't wrapped too tightly. For the first couple of years it may have been my anger at AA that kept me sober. Fact is I was about like an AA in reverse. If someone mentioned something good about AA in my presence they'd get a two hour lecture. I felt good about it because at the time I was probably the only one who'd say anything within 40 miles of where I lived and we had seven or eight TX Centers in the area. Now there is only one 8 bed facility, and it has shrunk from 20 beds. Most of the AA groups vanished with the treatment centers. When I mention that to AA people, they just say the groups were no good. What a crock, 60 no good groups out of 65. That's an estimation, it may have been 50 or 70 but there were a ton of them eight years ago. A town with 75 people would have a 30 member AA group, but no more. It takes a lot of drunks to keep a hundred member group alive because nearly half will be in relapse at any given time and the core is usually about a dozen. With no TX for new blood and no court orders, the group will shrink and die. That and not bad groups is what has happened. Sometimes if I'm bored, I'll drive to an old meeting site. It's affirming to drive bye at eight pm and see two cars in the lot, when eight years ago the lot would be full and streets parked full for two blocks around. People no longer feel forced to go, so they simply don't go. AA can still affect me, but not in a way they'd approve. Sometimes Rose will be in the bedroom reading, while I'm writing to a list. She'll holler from the bedroom, " Lighten up on AA Hall " and I know I've been hitting the keys like I was driving nails, and she has heard it in the bedroom. The abuses heaped on myself and other folks can still piss me of huge. Which reminds me, did you ever notice that almost all folks who've been through treatment use the expression " Big Time " at least ten times per day? It has become another AA slogan. I've been in at least 30 perhaps 40 treatment and detox centers and none of them noticed I had PTSD, which I now understand is a relatively simple diagnosis. I knew AA and those treatments weren't changing anything, but was convinced by them it was my fault. At first finding out they were wrong and incompetent was a big relief, then I got pissed! That feeling has never totally left. AA taught me that being angry would get me drunk, that I was required to forgive people. They lied. Drinking alcohol got me drunk, not being angry. Forgiving people who would do the same thing to me again if given the chance is ludicrous. I no longer allow them to hurt me, but forgive them. Why? It wouldn't make me feel any better, and I'm not into making them feel better. The 12step version of serenity is the abscence of emotion. Medecine would call it a lobotomy. In 1962 I was in a mental health unit with a guy named Dennis who had a lobotomy. He never had a nuetral or gloomy expression, he even smiled in his sleep(Honest injun) Drove everybody on the ward crazy. He smiled all the time and obeyed any order from anyone no matter how ridiculous. Kind of the ideal AA you might say. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 Ya know...I was angry when I initially wrote this post, but responses like this bring me beyond anger for myself, to concern for the welfare of others. I'm glad legal action is being taken, and I'm glad alternatives to AA are...even in existence now. But clearly AA and the treatment industry are still doing what was done to me. I would be interested to know of the suicide rate of people in 12 step programs relative to that of people who are not in 12 step programs; I wonder how I could research that. Judith > Yes Joe... In fact, I once heard that " powerlessness " is the number one complaint on suicide hotline calls. > Apple > > The saddest part of this, apart that is from the obvious nonsense of this type of " treatment " is that the highly dysfunctional ideas of powerlessness, surrender and incurable disease embodied in the steps are likly to cause or exacerbate depression rather than treat it. > > Joe Berenbaum _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 , I am so glad to hear you saying what you are saying. This post combined with your " Positive AA Story " tells volumes, and agrees with what I've always heard oldtimers say, namely, treatment centers ruined AA. In contrast to the oldtimers I've known, however, you've said it with a wealth of detail and very eloquently. I think the oldtimers, the ones who are left (if any), are afraid to speak up in meetings! Along the line of the " You're just where you're supposed to be " stories, I remember once being in a meeting where a guy who worked for a bank had been called in and orally reprimanded for I don't remember what. He worked pretty independently in mergers and acquisitions and had been sober for about two years, but he was still the kind of impulsive and often tactless guy he had always been, and he was upset about the reprimand. And I said to him, " Chuck, it's not a setback, it's an opportunity! " (This is pure treatment speak.) I swear he almost decked me. He tensed up and his arm went back and a little forward, and then he caught himself. Afterwards he insisted he wasn't going to hit me, but I never quite believed him, and I know how both he and I felt about that kind of flip, unthinking response to someone else's distress, no matter how fleeting it is, it is heartfelt at the moment. I wasn't serious, and he realized very quickly that I was not being serious but was parodying the program, but still, he had that quick, instinctive reaction to someone who was answering him with a slogan, not a human response. , I wish you would consider putting your whole story down on paper and publishing it if you can. You write very well, and you convey very well your progress through life and the very good place you have arrived at now, despite the problems, like your back pain, that come with living. You have a very sane outlook on AA, and can look at it when it was apparently what it was initially meant to be (something I've never experienced) and what it has become, and how sick it is now. It would make a very interesting story, and one that I'm sure would be welcome to lots of people. I can't help but think that for every one of us in this group there are several hundred out there who think the same way we do, but have no clue that there are others who feel the same way and don't know where to go or what to do. Books still reach more people than the Internet does. You might not even have to do much, considering the volume of posts you have written and how much you have said. You may have done it all already. wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5265 > Hey ; > > I never stayed sober in AA, maybe I didn't work the program > correctly what? > > The picture you paint of the " Collapsed Jack " is an appealing one. > Wonder if I could arrange it for a couple of them. One for you one > for me, but I get to watch! 8-) > > Seriously, well maybe I was serious. However, I always hated > those one size fits none pop psychobabble phrases. I suppose > The Jews in Birkenau were where they were supposed to be > according to AA. One of the more ridiculous things I've heard. > However one of those pat phrases was a good affirmation for my > having left AA, it's " Keep doin' what you're doin', you'll keep gettin' > what you're gettin'. " With what I was gettin' from AA it was a good > idea not to keep doin' it! > > In all fairness, before the advent of the TX's, I never heard any > psychobabble, no elavil is a slip, no Alcoholism is a disease. > Sometimes sponsors would recomend a shrink(Honest) I'm not > saying AA was great, but there was no " Attack Dog " mentality and > no psyche jargon. The slogans were common sayings like " Live > and let live " as a tolerance reminder. As common courtesy you > didn't question someone else's sobriety, even if you knew they lied > claiming a year and you'd seen them drunk two months previously. > It was their problem and usually they'd cop out after while. You > know how hard that would be to keep up. > > Most folks didn't take the twelve steps all that seriously, not like > they do now. In Aug of 66 I drank for one day after being sober > from Feb. My sponsor's admonition was, " It looks like you just > haven't fully accepted that you cannot drink successfully. " That > was it, no finger pointing, no me against the group. It started > changing in 67 with the advent of the detox center, where > incidentally I went to work as a counsellor. I relapsed twice in the > year I worked there. Something was missing for me, but I had not > the faintest Idea what it was. That's when the " Disease " started > and at first AA rejected the idea. However, soon the ranks of AA > were filled with detox graduates and the transition was a given. > Now nearly all AA members have gone through treatment and AA > has become an extension of treatment with its' confrontations and > for Gods Sake Feedback! Group feedback should only be > conducted in the presence of a qualified Psychologist or > psychiatrist. A shrink will put a stop to some idiot throwing > psychobabble around. Of course he also won't treat a guy like God > just because he has abstained from alcohol for ten years. That > would be intolerable to the AA Guru's > > IF this were 1966, I would be torn, because all the folks in AA were > so damned decent back then. Not just because they put me up > and arranged a job for me, but they stayed that way and invited me > into the group. From the podium the talks were mostly centered > on self honesty. Half of the time was spent in humor and I hadn't > laughed much in a long time. I was one of the group and it felt > good. > > Alas that was 25 years ago and this is now. Now it's a no brainer. > Unqualified people calling themselves counsellors, running > treatment and AA. Using the 12 steps as a weapon on vulnerable > people. The majority would rather climb a tree to tell a lie than > stand on the ground and tell the truth. I don't need pain first to > make me feel better. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 1999 Report Share Posted July 3, 1999 , I am so glad to hear you saying what you are saying. This post combined with your " Positive AA Story " tells volumes, and agrees with what I've always heard oldtimers say, namely, treatment centers ruined AA. In contrast to the oldtimers I've known, however, you've said it with a wealth of detail and very eloquently. I think the oldtimers, the ones who are left (if any), are afraid to speak up in meetings! Along the line of the " You're just where you're supposed to be " stories, I remember once being in a meeting where a guy who worked for a bank had been called in and orally reprimanded for I don't remember what. He worked pretty independently in mergers and acquisitions and had been sober for about two years, but he was still the kind of impulsive and often tactless guy he had always been, and he was upset about the reprimand. And I said to him, " Chuck, it's not a setback, it's an opportunity! " (This is pure treatment speak.) I swear he almost decked me. He tensed up and his arm went back and a little forward, and then he caught himself. Afterwards he insisted he wasn't going to hit me, but I never quite believed him, and I know how both he and I felt about that kind of flip, unthinking response to someone else's distress, no matter how fleeting it is, it is heartfelt at the moment. I wasn't serious, and he realized very quickly that I was not being serious but was parodying the program, but still, he had that quick, instinctive reaction to someone who was answering him with a slogan, not a human response. , I wish you would consider putting your whole story down on paper and publishing it if you can. You write very well, and you convey very well your progress through life and the very good place you have arrived at now, despite the problems, like your back pain, that come with living. You have a very sane outlook on AA, and can look at it when it was apparently what it was initially meant to be (something I've never experienced) and what it has become, and how sick it is now. It would make a very interesting story, and one that I'm sure would be welcome to lots of people. I can't help but think that for every one of us in this group there are several hundred out there who think the same way we do, but have no clue that there are others who feel the same way and don't know where to go or what to do. Books still reach more people than the Internet does. You might not even have to do much, considering the volume of posts you have written and how much you have said. You may have done it all already. wrote: original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=5265 > Hey ; > > I never stayed sober in AA, maybe I didn't work the program > correctly what? > > The picture you paint of the " Collapsed Jack " is an appealing one. > Wonder if I could arrange it for a couple of them. One for you one > for me, but I get to watch! 8-) > > Seriously, well maybe I was serious. However, I always hated > those one size fits none pop psychobabble phrases. I suppose > The Jews in Birkenau were where they were supposed to be > according to AA. One of the more ridiculous things I've heard. > However one of those pat phrases was a good affirmation for my > having left AA, it's " Keep doin' what you're doin', you'll keep gettin' > what you're gettin'. " With what I was gettin' from AA it was a good > idea not to keep doin' it! > > In all fairness, before the advent of the TX's, I never heard any > psychobabble, no elavil is a slip, no Alcoholism is a disease. > Sometimes sponsors would recomend a shrink(Honest) I'm not > saying AA was great, but there was no " Attack Dog " mentality and > no psyche jargon. The slogans were common sayings like " Live > and let live " as a tolerance reminder. As common courtesy you > didn't question someone else's sobriety, even if you knew they lied > claiming a year and you'd seen them drunk two months previously. > It was their problem and usually they'd cop out after while. You > know how hard that would be to keep up. > > Most folks didn't take the twelve steps all that seriously, not like > they do now. In Aug of 66 I drank for one day after being sober > from Feb. My sponsor's admonition was, " It looks like you just > haven't fully accepted that you cannot drink successfully. " That > was it, no finger pointing, no me against the group. It started > changing in 67 with the advent of the detox center, where > incidentally I went to work as a counsellor. I relapsed twice in the > year I worked there. Something was missing for me, but I had not > the faintest Idea what it was. That's when the " Disease " started > and at first AA rejected the idea. However, soon the ranks of AA > were filled with detox graduates and the transition was a given. > Now nearly all AA members have gone through treatment and AA > has become an extension of treatment with its' confrontations and > for Gods Sake Feedback! Group feedback should only be > conducted in the presence of a qualified Psychologist or > psychiatrist. A shrink will put a stop to some idiot throwing > psychobabble around. Of course he also won't treat a guy like God > just because he has abstained from alcohol for ten years. That > would be intolerable to the AA Guru's > > IF this were 1966, I would be torn, because all the folks in AA were > so damned decent back then. Not just because they put me up > and arranged a job for me, but they stayed that way and invited me > into the group. From the podium the talks were mostly centered > on self honesty. Half of the time was spent in humor and I hadn't > laughed much in a long time. I was one of the group and it felt > good. > > Alas that was 25 years ago and this is now. Now it's a no brainer. > Unqualified people calling themselves counsellors, running > treatment and AA. Using the 12 steps as a weapon on vulnerable > people. The majority would rather climb a tree to tell a lie than > stand on the ground and tell the truth. I don't need pain first to > make me feel better. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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