Re: Extra Beats or are they Skipped Beats

July 18, 2002

Ken,

The heart does not actually " skip. " However, it does feel like it. What you are

feeling is an ectopic beat (premature contraction). It will either originate in

the atria or ventricles thus: PAC=Premature Atrial Contraction and PVC=Premature

Ventricular Contraction. Many people refer to these as " skipped beats. "

Cardiologist: He or she deals with the aspects of the heart minus the electrical

system. An EP (Electrophysiologist) specializes in the electrical system of the

heart.

Dwight

isell_discoverytoys wrote:I have been lurking for a while and often hear about

ectopic beats.

When you get that feeling of something not being right for a moment

are we talking about skipped beats or extra beats. Or are the two

uniquely different.

Second Q.. in the U.S. what is the difference betweem an EP and

Cardio.

Thanks, Ken

Dwight Broeman

dbroeman@...

---------------------------------

July 18, 2002

thanks for the response.. Where would you find an EP.. Would they be listed

under physicians.. Are the actually MD's?

Re: Extra Beats or are they Skipped Beats

Ken,

The heart does not actually " skip. " However, it does feel like it. What you

are feeling is an ectopic beat (premature contraction). It will either originate

in the atria or ventricles thus: PAC=Premature Atrial Contraction and

PVC=Premature Ventricular Contraction. Many people refer to these as " skipped

beats. "

Cardiologist: He or she deals with the aspects of the heart minus the

electrical system. An EP (Electrophysiologist) specializes in the electrical

system of the heart.

Dwight

isell_discoverytoys wrote:I have been lurking for a while and often hear about

ectopic beats.

When you get that feeling of something not being right for a moment

are we talking about skipped beats or extra beats. Or are the two

uniquely different.

Second Q.. in the U.S. what is the difference betweem an EP and

Cardio.

Thanks, Ken

Dwight Broeman

dbroeman@...

---------------------------------

July 19, 2002

on Thu, 18 Jul 2002 at 23:13:23, ken schwartz

wrote :

>Where would you find an EP..

Go to http://www.naspe.org and find their " Find an EP " link - not just

the USA.

Best of health to all,

Vicky

July 19, 2002

Hi Vicky,

How are you keeping!!!

I hope all has settled down now. On Naspe I cjould not find out French Friends

john

> Re: Extra Beats or are they Skipped Beats

>

> on Thu, 18 Jul 2002 at 23:13:23, ken schwartz

> wrote :

> >Where would you find an EP..

>

> Go to http://www.naspe.org and find their " Find an EP " link - not just

> the USA.

>

> Best of health to all,

> Vicky

>

> Web Page - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AFIBsupport

> FAQ - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AFIBsupport/files/Administrative/faq.htm

> For more information: http://www.dialsolutions.com/af

> Unsubscribe: AFIBsupport-unsubscribe

> List owner: AFIBsupport-owner

> For help on how to use the group, including how to drive it via email,

> send a blank email to AFIBsupport-help

>

> Nothing in this message should be considered as medical advice, or should be

acted upon without consultation with one's physician.

>

July 19, 2002

on Fri, 19 Jul 2002 at 09:51:00, Codling,

wrote :

>Hi Vicky,

>

>How are you keeping!!!

Not bad, - without wanting to tempt fate, I think the ectopics are

settling. Fingers crossed and " hurry up and wait " (as usual!). Still on

the Flecainide - it looks to me like the advice you had to come off the

pills slowly over several months is very sensible perhaps especially if

you have had a bad time before an ablation. (by then I was in AF 24/24

if off drugs, ~12/24 if on Dofetilide).

Another week or two should see if a pattern is developing.

Best of health to all,

Vicky

July 19, 2002

> I have been lurking for a while and often hear about ectopic beats.

> When you get that feeling of something not being right for a moment

> are we talking about skipped beats or extra beats. Or are the two

> uniquely different.

Hi, Ken,

I've had 30 day monitors a couple of times, the type that when you

notice something you push a button and it saves a recording of the

previous 30 seconds and the next thirty seconds, and then you play it

over the phone to an 800 number. It is actually saving an EKG, and

you hear it play back.

So you get pretty expert on listening to what it sounds like, whether

there are pauses or beat beat beat-beat-beat beat etc.

When I found when I get that not quite right feeling is that it could

turn out to be a variety of things - one extra beat or a few extra

beats, various little artifacts.

Nothing on my recordings ever turned out to be worrying to my

cardiologist, except once I went into PVCs for 2-3 days instead of

the more usual mostly PACs with a few PVCs thrown in. She had me

take a stress echo test after that to check for artery blockages, of

which there are none, so she said " no sweat. " I was expecting that

since I had been taking a med, Cipro, which can cause PVCs as a side

effect.

When you have an extra beat and are feeling your pulse, you will feel

it as a pause. That's because the extra beat is so close to the

previous normal beat that you can't tell then from one beat. Then

there is a pause until the next normal beat. So what should be

beat..beat..beat is really

beatbeat....beat

but feels like

beat........beat

Don't take that spacing too literally, I'm just trying to get the

idea across.

July 19, 2002

All There is an excellent book by Camm and Waktarie called Atrial Fibrillation.

In this book I am a liitle bit famious as it my ECG that they used. My only

claim to fame.

There is a secion that in a lot of cases Ectopics precede the onset of AF. One

in AF and Quote AF behest AF in other words when you get inot this cycle your

heart will not normally come out of this unles interuppted by a Cadioversion or

a Drug. This is why when you have a Cadioversion it may work for a while then

along come an ectopic and bang your in AF again.

What causes or trigger the ectopis is a whole new ball game but the Work that is

being done in France is to stop these Ectopics thus stoppin gAF.

I hope this all make sense.

C

I

> Re: Extra Beats or are they Skipped Beats

>

> > I have been lurking for a while and often hear about ectopic beats.

> > When you get that feeling of something not being right for a moment

> > are we talking about skipped beats or extra beats. Or are the two

> > uniquely different.

>

> Hi, Ken,

>

> I've had 30 day monitors a couple of times, the type that when you

> notice something you push a button and it saves a recording of the

> previous 30 seconds and the next thirty seconds, and then you play it

> over the phone to an 800 number. It is actually saving an EKG, and

> you hear it play back.

>

> So you get pretty expert on listening to what it sounds like, whether

> there are pauses or beat beat beat-beat-beat beat etc.

>

> When I found when I get that not quite right feeling is that it could

> turn out to be a variety of things - one extra beat or a few extra

> beats, various little artifacts.

>

> Nothing on my recordings ever turned out to be worrying to my

> cardiologist, except once I went into PVCs for 2-3 days instead of

> the more usual mostly PACs with a few PVCs thrown in. She had me

> take a stress echo test after that to check for artery blockages, of

> which there are none, so she said " no sweat. " I was expecting that

> since I had been taking a med, Cipro, which can cause PVCs as a side

> effect.

>

> When you have an extra beat and are feeling your pulse, you will feel

> it as a pause. That's because the extra beat is so close to the

> previous normal beat that you can't tell then from one beat. Then

> there is a pause until the next normal beat. So what should be

> beat..beat..beat is really

> beatbeat....beat

> but feels like

> beat........beat

>

> Don't take that spacing too literally, I'm just trying to get the

> idea across.

>

> Web Page - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AFIBsupport

> FAQ - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AFIBsupport/files/Administrative/faq.htm

> For more information: http://www.dialsolutions.com/af

> Unsubscribe: AFIBsupport-unsubscribe

> List owner: AFIBsupport-owner

> For help on how to use the group, including how to drive it via email,

> send a blank email to AFIBsupport-help

>

> Nothing in this message should be considered as medical advice, or should be

acted upon without consultation with one's physician.

>

July 19, 2002

Ken,

Most good cardiology groups have an EP on staff. Do some research. Look at the

major hospitals in your area. I can help you if you are in the Los Angeless

area. Yes, the are M.D.'s. The are cardiologists that specialize in the

electrical system.

Dwight

ken schwartz wrote:thanks for the response.. Where would you find an EP.. Would

they be listed under physicians.. Are the actually MD's?

Dwight Broeman

dbroeman@...

---------------------------------

July 19, 2002

Vicky,

My EP served as President of this society. This is a good site. Thanks.

Dwight

Vicky wrote:on Thu, 18 Jul 2002 at 23:13:23, ken schwartz

wrote :

>Where would you find an EP..

Go to http://www.naspe.org and find their " Find an EP " link - not just

the USA.

Best of health to all,

Vicky

Dwight Broeman

dbroeman@...

---------------------------------

July 19, 2002

Re: Extra Beats or are they Skipped Beats

>

> Ken,

> The heart does not actually " skip. " However, it does feel like it. What

you are feeling is an ectopic beat (premature contraction). It will either

originate in the atria or ventricles thus: PAC=Premature Atrial Contraction

and PVC=Premature Ventricular Contraction. Many people refer to these as

" skipped beats. "

So what is the technical term for extra beats? I get missed beats which must

be ectopics, as you can't feel them in the pulse, but I also get extra beats

which you can feel in the pulse. Sometimes they have a regular rhythm like

three together then a long pause, then three together and a long pause.

Thanks

Fran

July 19, 2002

Fran wrote

<<So what is the technical term for extra beats?>>

ectopics

I think it's a very general term - ectopic means 'out of place' and I think,

as far as the heart is concerned, this can mean location or time.

<< I get missed beats which must be ectopics, as you can't feel them in the

pulse,>>

Many people get long pauses between beats (or missed beats) and to add the

confusion these can sometimes occur because of an ectopic beat firing the

heart early and sometimes just happen because the SA node forgot to fire.

(and it gets worse because in some folks the top bit fires but you don't

feel a pulse because the bottom bit doesn't fire due to some form of AV

block)

<< but I also get extra beats,

which you can feel in the pulse. Sometimes they have a regular rhythm like

three together then a long pause, then three together and a long pause.>>

All of my AFs start with a run of ectopics and they involve long pauses.

Figuring out whether a long pause comes first or an ectopic comes first, I

believe, is very important in deciding the best course of action. In my case

it is still not clear and without wearing a holter monitor for a several

months I think it will remain a mystery.

--

D (33, Leeds, UK)

Paroxysmal AF for 24 hours every 16 days

July 19, 2002

Re: Extra Beats or are they Skipped Beats

> All of my AFs start with a run of ectopics and they involve long pauses.

> Figuring out whether a long pause comes first or an ectopic comes first, I

> believe, is very important in deciding the best course of action. In my

case

> it is still not clear and without wearing a holter monitor for a several

> months I think it will remain a mystery.

>

> --

> D (33, Leeds, UK)

> Paroxysmal AF for 24 hours every 16 days

Thanks for your response. The funny thing is that these extra beats and

ectopics are no longer preceeding a run of AF as I have been so clear for a

long time. They just are, and are very annoying. Mostly because I can't

understand why. I've lived for so long now with a funny heart beat that I

should just learn to ignore it. But as I have got shot of the AF, I want to

get shot of these too.

Maybe this is where pulmonary ablation would come in. Does anyone know the

reason why this works, or at least the theory behind it? I couldn't do

anything without understanding the implications fully.

Fran

July 19, 2002

<<Maybe this is where pulmonary ablation would come in. Does anyone know the

reason why this works, or at least the theory behind it? I couldn't do

anything without understanding the implications fully.>>

In many people the ectopic beats originate in the pulmonary veins - hence

the ablation there.

I don't know enough about it to say after an ablation whether they still

happen

and propagation is prevented because of the scar or whether the rogue cells

are

also ablated?

As to the reason why they happen there, it's still anybodies guess.

They're a long way from the SA node and on a peculiar boundary where cardiac

cells turn into vein walls - both of these things probably contribute - but

this is just my guess rather than anything I've read.

--

D

July 19, 2002

> The funny thing is that these extra beats and

> ectopics are no longer preceeding a run of AF as I have been so

clear for a

> long time. They just are, and are very annoying. Mostly because I

can't

> understand why. I've lived for so long now with a funny heart beat

that I

> should just learn to ignore it. But as I have got shot of the AF, I

want to

> get shot of these too.

>

> Maybe this is where pulmonary ablation would come in. Does anyone

know the

> reason why this works, or at least the theory behind it?

Fran, this is something I've thought about also, as mostly I have

multiple ectopics a minute vs. afib. In theory, a pulmonary ablation

should fix this by isolating the pulmonary veins which are usually

where the foci are that start the ectopics which in turn can lead to

afib.

I asked my cardio about this and she agrees that it should work.

However, I'm not pursuing this for awhile as I still have hopes that

losing weight, on which I am making no progress, may improve things,

since one thing that sets ectopics off for me is carrying heavy stuff.

Also, waiting gives the ep folk a chance to continue to improve the

operation.

July 19, 2002

Fran,

They are either originating from the ventricles or the atria. They would be

PVC's, or PAC's respectively. If they are coming in runs, then you are talking

about tachycardia. You want to make sure that these runs are not originating

from the ventricles. Atrial tachycardia can be atrial flutter, SVT etc.

Dwight

Frances Ross wrote:

Re: Extra Beats or are they Skipped Beats

>

> Ken,

> The heart does not actually " skip. " However, it does feel like it. What

you are feeling is an ectopic beat (premature contraction). It will either

originate in the atria or ventricles thus: PAC=Premature Atrial Contraction

and PVC=Premature Ventricular Contraction. Many people refer to these as

" skipped beats. "

So what is the technical term for extra beats? I get missed beats which must

be ectopics, as you can't feel them in the pulse, but I also get extra beats

which you can feel in the pulse. Sometimes they have a regular rhythm like

three together then a long pause, then three together and a long pause.

Thanks

Fran

July 20, 2002

>

> Fran,

> They are either originating from the ventricles or the atria. They would

be PVC's, or PAC's respectively. If they are coming in runs, then you are

talking about tachycardia. You want to make sure that these runs are not

originating from the ventricles. Atrial tachycardia can be atrial flutter,

SVT etc.

> Dwight

I would hope that all the testing in the past would have seen if they were

from the ventricles. But as i have had periods when I have conked out and

convulsed with near death experiences in the dead of night, it does remain a

worry with me. I was waiting to see the cardio again who was going to look

at recent holter recordings, but that was cancelled in June as I still have

not had the monitor. Hmph. NHS. But it may also be due to the fact they are

sending me to Glasgow to see a neurologist who has facilities to do tests on

the ANS. I have had to postpone that as I got a letter yesterday saying to

be there on the 29th July, which just can't be done due to school holidays,

kids etc. So they are sending me one for later the next month.

Thanks.

Fran

July 20, 2002

Yes the thought of pulmonary ablation is quite frightening. You just don't

know if it will work, will go wrong, will leave you with another problem or

just cure it. If only there was something solid to base the reason on why it

can work. It is not something I will ever do lightly. But I will keep

abreast of what is going on.

Good luck with loosing weight. Weight is definately not a factor with me

now, although my AF did get much worse for a while when I was pregnant (10

years ago) and ballooned up to 13 stone.

Take care

Fran

Re: Extra Beats or are they Skipped Beats

>

> Fran, this is something I've thought about also, as mostly I have

> multiple ectopics a minute vs. afib. In theory, a pulmonary ablation

> should fix this by isolating the pulmonary veins which are usually

> where the foci are that start the ectopics which in turn can lead to

> afib.

>

> I asked my cardio about this and she agrees that it should work.

> However, I'm not pursuing this for awhile as I still have hopes that

> losing weight, on which I am making no progress, may improve things,

> since one thing that sets ectopics off for me is carrying heavy stuff.

>

> Also, waiting gives the ep folk a chance to continue to improve the

> operation.

>

July 20, 2002

Cheers

That gives me some info to search further on.

FRan

Re: Extra Beats or are they Skipped Beats

> <<Maybe this is where pulmonary ablation would come in. Does anyone know

the

> reason why this works, or at least the theory behind it? I couldn't do

> anything without understanding the implications fully.>>

>

> In many people the ectopic beats originate in the pulmonary veins - hence

> the ablation there.

>

> I don't know enough about it to say after an ablation whether they still

> happen

> and propagation is prevented because of the scar or whether the rogue

cells

> are

> also ablated?

>

> As to the reason why they happen there, it's still anybodies guess.

> They're a long way from the SA node and on a peculiar boundary where

cardiac

> cells turn into vein walls - both of these things probably contribute -

but

> this is just my guess rather than anything I've read.

>

> --

> D

>

> Web Page - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AFIBsupport

> FAQ -

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AFIBsupport/files/Administrative/faq.htm

> For more information: http://www.dialsolutions.com/af

> Unsubscribe: AFIBsupport-unsubscribe

> List owner: AFIBsupport-owner

> For help on how to use the group, including how to drive it via email,

> send a blank email to AFIBsupport-help

>

> Nothing in this message should be considered as medical advice, or should

be acted upon without consultation with one's physician.

>

July 20, 2002

>

> Fran,

> They are either originating from the ventricles or the atria. They

would be PVC's, or PAC's respectively. If they are coming in runs,

then you are talking about tachycardia. You want to make sure that

these runs are not originating from the ventricles. Atrial

tachycardia can be atrial flutter, SVT etc.

> Dwight

Dwight and Fran,

My cardio does not get too worked up about short runs of PVCs - when

on a monitor I have caught several episodes a day of 3 to 10.

July 20, 2002

>

> Fran,

> They are either originating from the ventricles or the atria. They

would be PVC's, or PAC's respectively. If they are coming in runs,

then you are talking about tachycardia. You want to make sure that

these runs are not originating from the ventricles. Atrial

tachycardia can be atrial flutter, SVT etc.

> Dwight

Dwight and Fran,

My cardio does not get too worked up about short runs of PVCs - when

on a monitor I have caught several episodes a day of 3 to 10.

July 20, 2002

>

> Fran,

> They are either originating from the ventricles or the atria. They

would be PVC's, or PAC's respectively. If they are coming in runs,

then you are talking about tachycardia. You want to make sure that

these runs are not originating from the ventricles. Atrial

tachycardia can be atrial flutter, SVT etc.

> Dwight

Dwight and Fran,

My cardio does not get too worked up about short runs of PVCs - when

on a monitor I have caught several episodes a day of 3 to 10.

July 20, 2002

> > As to the reason why they happen there, it's still anybodies

guess.

> > They're a long way from the SA node and on a peculiar boundary

where

> cardiac

> > cells turn into vein walls - both of these things probably

contribute -

> but

> > this is just my guess rather than anything I've read.

I dimly recall reading recently that the type of heart cells that

produce electrical impulses associated with beating can extend

somewhat into the pulmonary veins. As I recall, breaks in that type

of tissue are thought to cause errant signals that can trigger extra

beats.

July 20, 2002

Trudy,

A run of 3 or more PVC's is considered V-Tach. This is o.k. in a healthy heart.

Or, it is o.k. if your doctor feels that it is o.k. In an unhealthy heart,

doctors might become more concerned. What none of us want is sustained V-Tach.

Let's stick with the tachycardias originating in the atria!

I had 5 beats of PVC's (V-Tach) after a treadmill. Due to my MVP, they did an EP

study on me to assess my risk. They were not able to induce the arrhythmia

therefore no ICD.

Dwight

trudyjhagain wrote:

>

> Fran,

> They are either originating from the ventricles or the atria. They

would be PVC's, or PAC's respectively. If they are coming in runs,

then you are talking about tachycardia. You want to make sure that

these runs are not originating from the ventricles. Atrial

tachycardia can be atrial flutter, SVT etc.

> Dwight

Dwight and Fran,

My cardio does not get too worked up about short runs of PVCs - when

on a monitor I have caught several episodes a day of 3 to 10.

July 20, 2002

Fran,

In my opinion, if you are on the verge of passing out and having near death

experiences, you should be treated more aggressively. An EP study may be in

order depending on the origination of these arrhythmias.