Re: : Bad Taste of AA

[Guest guest]

Hi Bob,

No, I hadn't considered putting her name up, though she is

practicing only about 100 miles tops from here. AA is pretty

powerfull here and could I believe cause me some grief with the

state. Many State agencies are solid AA top to bottom. Public

health is one for sure. The 40 year sober guy I talk about was the

administrator of a big hospital. He got mostly AA people in under

him, for every position he could. This happened a lot in the late

sixties and early seventies and we are now reaping the whirlwind,

so to speak.

I did four years in The Fort Madison Max Security penitentiary from

77 to 81 and it was easier than trying to reconcile all the crap in AA

Since I have broke free of ptsd, I have become a great believer in

play as necessary therapy. When I was little I had no real chance

to play. I was always working on something to please him, to keep

safe. It didn't work, he'd always think of something I " Should have "

known, but didn't because no one told me. I should have known

this and done that. For not knowing and doing I'd get whipped on.

They were all in his sick head, I had no realistic way of knowing.

He was frustrated and wanted to beat on me, but it had to be

justified, so he'd make something up. My wife Rose is a childhood

incest survivor. She never learned to play because she was always

figuring out ways to avoid being alone with her hero father. Yeah,

fucker was a navy cross winner from WWII

My father was a mucky muck in the church, which is where I got

my love for religion 8-) Anyway he made a big deal of the church

and donated money and time to causes of various types. As you

might imagine I got real tired of hearing what a great guy he was

from the people he bought.

What chance of being believed did either Rose or I have? Nada,

zip, zero, and none. So we lived with it. In the midst of all that

fear, I eventually went numb and stayed that way. I had been in

fear so long, I no longer recognized it as fear. One day I didn't get

up quick enough and the old man grabbed me and was going to

body slam me like he'd done many times, but I reversed it on him

and he went down with me on top. I jumped up and got ready to

go, I still wasn't fully awake. He backed up and said " You want

trouble, I think I'll just get rid of you to Eldora as an uncontrollable

delinquent. " He could do it too. In those days his word was

enough to put me in prison till I was 21 and I think I was 12 at the

time. No, I must have been 14, seems I was in Junior High. That

was however, the last time he tried that body slam shit! Anyway

the tradeoff for the lack of fear was the pain, which brought on more

fear. Sucks doesn't it?

After 40 years of living with that I had to learn to play. I did and so

did Rose as you can see in a couple of my other posts

Learning to have fun like a ten year old is the day I mark as my first

of freedom and last day of slavery to my old ways. The old ways

were the always serious ways of AA. In those old ways, we only

laughed at misery, think about it. We never laughed at the joy of

just diving a kite or something truly joyous. We laughed at

someone elses misfortune, bundled as humor. I couldn't go back

to those " After I hit the phone pole, this cop comes up

and................ " stories. After freedom, they weren't funny, but

tragic. Dr Laing had told me that when I made a discovery and

took a step forward, I couldn't turn around and go back, it won't

work. She was right.

That's why I think your bike idea is so great. A chance to have fun,

meet folks if you want and see your whole neighborhood in a

different light

Hope you enjoy it as much as I think you will, I always enjoyed a

bike ride.

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[Guest guest]

Hi -

Yes, I meant Albuquerque. I like it out west-lived there and San Diego, CA

(Of course, Husband #1 was in the Navy!). I've been through AZ several

times. So you had a pilot's license? I was in the CAP when I was in my

teens and Charlie teases me about it (Up in the sky, Junior Birdmen!!!!).

It still fascinates me, although I am afraid of flying now. It's not a

phobia-I think it's a more normal fear of crashing, because I'm not the one

controlling the plane (?).

I can understand your fear after the biking accident. You were very lucky! I

remember having a car accident in the early 80's. I was living alone,

raising my 3 kids at the time and going to college. I rear-ended a car and

I was only going 35mph. My daughter (now 24), who was unrestrained in the

back seat, ended up on the dashboard! She broke the windshield, too.

Fortunately, she wasn't badly injured. It is amazing how much damage can be

done at a low speed as that. Anyway, I remember being afraid to get back in

the car and drive it. I had no one to depend on, except me, and my kids

were depending on me. You speak of being strong. Yes, I am! We have to be

to deal with life. I sometimes think of myself as starting my life

basically with one foot in the hole and having to play " catch up " the rest

of my life. I feel like I have to work harder, try harder, be a little

better, because of it. I am not entirely sure where this comes from, except

I think it has to do with that " I'm not good enough " feeling.

, you've really had your share of troubles and have an amazingly good

attitude in spite of it all!

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: : Bad Taste of AA

>Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:55:02 -0600

>

>Hi ;

>

>I just mentioned the grand canyon, because you said you were

>going to ABQ, I took that to be New Mexico(Long time since I've

>flown anything, they took my lisence) Therefore not all that far from

>The Grand Canyon in Arizona. It was just the first neat thing in the

>area, that I could think of. I've only seen it from the air, but it sure

>is big and colorful. I have been to The Royal Gorge, Carlsbad

>Caverns and old Leadville and some of the old silver and Gold

>mines. I lived in Mesa, Tempe and Apache Junction, Arizona, in

>the mid 80's. I was in decent physical shape then, all things

>considered, so I rode a ten speed bike all over, until I finally got ran

>over and got both legs crushed. Recovered from that too. Actually

>I got ran over by a 40 foot cabin cruiser on a trailer. It was new and

>the guy didn't realize his boat was wider than his pickup. I was

>against the median with no place to go and it sucked me under. It

>was a while before I was riding full time again. I tried it ten days

>after the accident, got to the store and couldn't get back. Sat at a

>bus stop bench in the shade for a couple of hours and then made it

>back in two jumps. I had to get stuff working though. At my age

>it's use it or lose it, and I wasn't ready to lose it just yet 8-)

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Joe, Jan:

I had a similar experience about 10 years ago in AA. I had taken my

daughter, then 10 years old, to a meeting at a local club. During the

meeting, she played pinball and colored (I thought). After the meeting, she

asked me it AL could take her shopping and to dinner. AL was a 60-year-old

man/pedophile. She had been sitting there talking with him and he almost had

her conviced to go without asking my permission! This guy hung around this

particular club and 13th-stepped everything female. Age or looks did not

matter. I was appalled. Even though I had worked on committees to open

that very club, I never set foot in it again. I could not believe that they

would allow someone like that preying on injured women to " do his thing "

there! But it was true. I am just glad I was made aware of this before

something happened to my daughter there.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: : Bad Taste of AA

>Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:43:28 +0100

>

>At 12:32 AM 6/16/99 +0100, you wrote:

> >Hi Jan

> >

> >This opens up an interesting question. Nobody can be banned

> >from A apparently. So a member makes a criminal assault on

> >a vulnerable person (remember sometimes AA attenders are as

> >young as only 10 years old) and this person can never be

> >banned? how do they handle that one?

> >

> >P.

>

>With hypocrisy, abdication of any responsibility to protect minors, and

>mealy mouthed spiritual platitudes, usually...

>

>Here's one;

>

> " Yes, we know he raped your daughter and threatened to kill her when she

>was only 15 but he deserves some support too you know. "

>

>This one is from real life- people I know.

>

>Joe Berenbaum

>

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[Guest guest]

Hi ;

The psychologist told me when I was strong enough those lost

memories would come back by themselves.

She also cautioned me against any methods designed to force

them to the surface for two reasons. First the forced out memories

are unreliable and often not true at all. Second if they were true

they might overwhelm my defenses with all kinds of nasty results

possible

When Rose and I got married and up till a couple of years ago her

abuser was still alive. I thought that oversight ought to be

corrected and at one point thought of doing just that

But Rose didn't need an " Avenging Angel " , she needed me as her

husband. She settled things as best she could, and I finally

realized it wasn't my job description to interfere. I can be there to

help with the new feelings, I could do nothing constructive about

the old.

I think knowing what I know, I'd go to The Grand Canyon instead.

Just my 2 cents.

I'm with you, there's a time to let sleeping dogs lie. At some future

time you might want to kick 'em a little and wake them up, but

that's your choice alone.

Rose and I are both missing years in our childhood memories. It

doesn't prevent us from having a good time

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[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I think I told you about facing the guy that molested me. It was in a 5-hour

deposition in which he was sitting right next to his lawyer, and the guy would

not even raise his head. That was in 1993. The fact that he couldn't look at

anyone validated enough for me to know it was true, and that it was him, even

though he lied thoughout the suit. I SAW better. I also saw that he had lived

a miserable life, and it wasn't getting any better!

During that time, I toyed with the possibility of getting hypnotized. I changed

my mind. I figure that if I'm strong enough to know, I'll remember all on my

own. I don't want to know anymore than I do, and haven't since that time.

As a result of our closeness, Charlie can sense and understand what I am

feeling, long before I realize it, most of the time. I have the tendency to

ignore emotions and put them on a shelf. I'm sure you can understand this

concept. It's one of my biggest blocks, but it's a defense mechanism I put into

place long ago to protect myself. I don't need it anymore, and I need to get

rid of it. So, in a sense, Charlie shows me where the dragons are. I fight them

when I can. It is mostly in the form of set behaviors and thought processes I

need to change. Sounds like you're there with Rose. It is so nice after all

these years to have someone really " there " . And I know Rose must be so

grateful!

Charlie and I play, too. I have done a lot of things that I wouldn't have had I

not met him. I am missing chunks out of my childhood, too, and play when I can

remember to be gentle with myself. It's not often enough, though. I need to be

reminded! Thanks!

wrote:

Original Article: /group/12-step-free/?start=4667

> Hi ;

>

> The psychologist told me when I was strong enough those lost

> memories would come back by themselves.

>

> She also cautioned me against any methods designed to force

> them to the surface for two reasons. First the forced out memories

> are unreliable and often not true at all. Second if they were true

> they might overwhelm my defenses with all kinds of nasty results

> possible

>

> When Rose and I got married and up till a couple of years ago her

> abuser was still alive. I thought that oversight ought to be

> corrected and at one point thought of doing just that

>

> But Rose didn't need an " Avenging Angel " , she needed me as her

> husband. She settled things as best she could, and I finally

> realized it wasn't my job description to interfere. I can be there to

> help with the new feelings, I could do nothing constructive about

> the old.

>

> I think knowing what I know, I'd go to The Grand Canyon instead.

> Just my 2 cents.

>

> I'm with you, there's a time to let sleeping dogs lie. At some future

> time you might want to kick 'em a little and wake them up, but

> that's your choice alone.

>

> Rose and I are both missing years in our childhood memories. It

> doesn't prevent us from having a good time

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

As always, thank you so much, ! You and Rose seem truly blessed and that

you share so much is wonderful, ( at least for me). I have a birthday next

week and I am going to reach out to some people I know at school and actually

do something fun. Maybe go to the River or hike the Sandias. Thanks again.

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[Guest guest]

I have to leave for awhile -- please take me off list till I come back

from Florida, in a week or so. Thank you!

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[Guest guest]

Jim K:

has been an enormous help to me. This group has been an enourmous help

to me. I can go to the discussion boards of AA in AOL and find you and your

mean spririted friends anytime I want. I choose to be here to learn and grow

and share with kind and wise people. Lucky me! Poor you. Kathy

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[Guest guest]

At 12:32 AM 6/16/99 +0100, you wrote:

>Hi Jan

>

>This opens up an interesting question. Nobody can be banned

>from A apparently. So a member makes a criminal assault on

>a vulnerable person (remember sometimes AA attenders are as

>young as only 10 years old) and this person can never be

>banned? how do they handle that one?

>

>P.

With hypocrisy, abdication of any responsibility to protect minors, and

mealy mouthed spiritual platitudes, usually...

Here's one;

" Yes, we know he raped your daughter and threatened to kill her when she

was only 15 but he deserves some support too you know. "

This one is from real life- people I know.

Joe Berenbaum

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[Guest guest]

Hi ;

I just mentioned the grand canyon, because you said you were

going to ABQ, I took that to be New Mexico(Long time since I've

flown anything, they took my lisence) Therefore not all that far from

The Grand Canyon in Arizona. It was just the first neat thing in the

area, that I could think of. I've only seen it from the air, but it sure

is big and colorful. I have been to The Royal Gorge, Carlsbad

Caverns and old Leadville and some of the old silver and Gold

mines. I lived in Mesa, Tempe and Apache Junction, Arizona, in

the mid 80's. I was in decent physical shape then, all things

considered, so I rode a ten speed bike all over, until I finally got ran

over and got both legs crushed. Recovered from that too. Actually

I got ran over by a 40 foot cabin cruiser on a trailer. It was new and

the guy didn't realize his boat was wider than his pickup. I was

against the median with no place to go and it sucked me under. It

was a while before I was riding full time again. I tried it ten days

after the accident, got to the store and couldn't get back. Sat at a

bus stop bench in the shade for a couple of hours and then made it

back in two jumps. I had to get stuff working though. At my age

it's use it or lose it, and I wasn't ready to lose it just yet 8-)

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[Guest guest]

At 09:04 AM 6/16/99 -0700, you wrote:

>;

>

>I find little in your shares and less in your biography to suggest that you

>are a " winner " by the definition we have all heard oft-repeated in the AA

>cult, the axiom " Hang Around The Winners. "

>

>I have spent much time in hard-time prisons; I am unimpressed by cons or

>jailhouse lawyers...

>Peace...

>Jim K...

>http://www.churchofgodanonymous.org

>This website changed my life...

Can't have been much of a life then- that site is all about superstition,

medieval thinking and abdication of responsibility. If this seems like an

improvement to you, you have my sympathy.

It is very clear what is bugging you here. got free of the

pontificating religious fools and is now continuously sober without AA or

the supernatural and is obviously now able to help others to do likewise. I

understand, that must make you mad. Maybe you can find some way to live

with this sort of difficult information? Ah, if only your program actually

worked! I hope you find the help you need.

Joe Berenbaum

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[Guest guest]

Jim K wrote:

>

> ;

>

> I find little in your shares and less in your biography to suggest that you

> are a " winner " by the definition we have all heard oft-repeated in the AA

> cult, the axiom " Hang Around The Winners. "

>

> I have spent much time in hard-time prisons; I am unimpressed by cons or

> jailhouse lawyers...

> Peace...

> Jim K...

> http://www.churchofgodanonymous.org

> This website changed my life...

>

Jim,

gave an excellent response to your post and I'd just like to add

the purpose of this list which you seem to have missed.

" Twelve Step Free Zone is a discussion list for those who have left the

groups or are seriously questioning the 12-step doctrine. It is also for

those who have a loved one caught up in the step religion. The focus of

discussion is on sharing experience with and information on the step

groups. Perhaps our most important

function is to provide the first place where many can dare be critical

and not be accused by a " unanimous majority " of groupers of suffering

from one " defect of character " or another for doing so. . . . "

You have no business coming in here and, as said, trying to build

yourself up by tearing others down. This is a private discussion list.

You have no right to further assault those who have already been

assaulted by the groupers. We are not favorably impressed. You are

hereby unsubscribed.

Ken Ragge

listmanager

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[Guest guest]

Regarading banning AAs, an AA Group may ban someone ( I have seen it ). Of

course that it only one meeting " s move...the banned person may simply pick

another meeting

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[Guest guest]

Regarding the " winners. " I have never seen AA group where the " winner " was

anything more than a member of that group's " in group. " Furtermore, by AA

defintion we are all losers on this board...Funny thing, however...in my

short time on this list I have found more sober time than at the last

several AA meetings I atteneded. People here also seem to be interesting

and aware...so I think I will " stick with the losers " ...my odds of survival

seem stronger...P.S This is a really wierd list to be on if one is looking

for AA approved recovery...Perhaps AA.org would be more appropiate.

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[Guest guest]

, my favorite one is:

No thanks, I only smoke crack.

Apple

>

> No thanks, I threw up earlier today

> No thanks, I've already done time in the penitentiary

> No thanks, I ran over a kid a few years ago

> No thanks, I don't like the feel of porcelan against my face

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Hi ;

It is quite an experience to see AA's style, in direct comparision to

our style here isn't it?

We know it is like that, but to have it affirmed is OK in small

doses. He was afraid and had no alternative in his mind but to lash

out. Too bad really, but as we've all seen, it's AA's way when

challenged in any way.

We are not miracle workers, just folks surviving lousy experiences,

AA being at the heart of it.

The only program I have is to have a Life. One I command, as

opposed to having a knee jerk reaction to every situation or new

idea that comes my way. " New " doen't always mean better, but it

can mean better and if I've knee jerked it out of my mind, I've

missed an opportunity. A good idea is a terrible thing to waste,

isn't it?

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[Guest guest]

Hi Jan;

Reading through the several posts you pasted together something

struck me.

AA views anger and resentment as " Character Defects " . That all

by itself twists a person. Anger is just an emotion with a cause

that makes sense to the person who is feeling the anger. Their

reason may or may noy make sense to others, buy that's

unimportant. I might get mad at the guy who kills the last Sea

Otter, because I've never seen one. Fact is I've never seen an

ocean for that matter. I might never see the ocean, let alone a Sea

Otter, so why should I care? It's unimportant why I care isn't it?

However, it seems even dummer to say a prayer of forgiveness for

someone I don't even know.

Character Defect? I can't even figure out what getting angry has to

do with character. Character in the usual sense is related directly

to conduct, not feelings and emotions.

The guy who preys on vunerable females is a predator, the guy who

only thinks he'd like to, is just a closet dirty old man. I feel the first

has a defect of character, the other a wishful libido. However, if #2

watches number 1 and does or says nothing to interfere, then he

joins #1 with at least tacit approval. In AA should I get angry and

tell #1 to hit the bricks, she doesn't need more abuse, then it is me

who has the character defect.

If that isn't twisted, I'm uncertain what is. It puts the criminal in the

right, with all the power the group can muster to protect him. The

thing that makes it unhealthy is that it's so common in AA.

Everyone here it appears has had at least second hand knowledge

and most first hand, of such an event. Since we are from all over

the place it's not confined to any particular locale

I suppose if there had been an AA around on the day we flew the

kites, he'd of grabbed me and said " You're far too happy, you need

to see your sponsor and do a new 4th step "

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[Guest guest]

Hi Kathy;

Hope you have loads of fun, and Ben-Gay 8-)

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[Guest guest]

At 04:00 AM 6/17/99 -0600, you wrote:

>Hi ;

>

>It is quite an experience to see AA's style, in direct comparision to

>our style here isn't it?

>

>We know it is like that, but to have it affirmed is OK in small

>doses. He was afraid and had no alternative in his mind but to lash

>out. Too bad really, but as we've all seen, it's AA's way when

>challenged in any way.

Now that you meantion it, I looked at that message again. It is

interesting! It is devoid, utterly of any constructive content at all, or

even information. It is empty of thought. All it is is an ineffective

criticism of a personality!

Here it is again, just for forensic examination;

>,

>I find little in your shares and less in your biography to suggest that you

>are a " winner " by the definition we have all heard oft-repeated in the AA

>cult, the axiom " Hang Around The Winners. "

This is such a strange observation, isn't it. Here we have a group of

people who (mostly) wish to throw off all the AA trappings and programming

and live a life free of those dubious concepts and superstitious

behaviours, and here is someone saying that one of us is not a good example

of what we are all trying to get away from. Well give the man an honorary

degree! In fact give him an honorary kedgeree... Notice how the arguably

most important content of 's story was ignored altogether. The fact is

that was unable to stay sober in AA even though he tried for 30 years,

yet found it came naturally after he left. But of course there simply is no

effective put-down for that kind of information, so Jim had to focus on

superficial issues. This is about as meaningful as finding someone who has

recovered from cancer and saying " Hey, you're not bald and dying, you're no

good! " . Meaningless, totally meaningless.

>I have spent much time in hard-time prisons; I am unimpressed by cons or

>jailhouse lawyers...

>Peace...

>Jim K...

He has spent a lot of time in prisons. Well isn't that nice. This obviously

qualifies him for- what? Oh yes, it qualifies him to look down on other

ex-cons. Some qualification.

And don't you just love that little word " Peace... " thrown in there to make

thwe whole thng spiritual again? Yes okay Jim, thanks for the reminder, can

all we believe you're a really spiritual guy now, full of the Holy Spirit...

But what is amazing is that, let's say, if there WAS something inherently

wrong and bad about and his recounting his experiences here, what does

Jim's message accomplish? A sort of playground snide, nothing more. " Hey

look, I'm looking down on you " . Zero actual content. It reminds me of how

much AA philosophy is exactly this type of thinking. " I'm better than YOU "

is a real component of AA thinking, and a major component of their program.

You won't find it so easily in the BB, but it is very much there in the way

the members think and behave. Believe it, and be afraid, be very afraid, if

your're still going there...

Joe Berenbaum

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[Guest guest]

Hey Joe;

Jim K made several posts, but said nothing. He said his life was

changed, but never told us what it was, or what it is. He was a

rather strange duck even for AA.

The first post in re to him, that I trashed I ask what prisons he was

referring to. Then I thought, wait a minute, I don't want a debate

with this guy, I want rid of him!

I don't know exactly what it is about that phrase Dr Laing used on

me and I've re-used on smartasses, but it works. He didn't answer

me and it was the better part of a day before Ken Iced him.

Somehow it conveys that further argument is a dead issue.

Funny, I feel sorry for the guy, he's alone and afraid and that's a

100% no funner. I post a lot. I would guess he counted the posts

and thought I was leader of the pack and attacked me. That would

be the prison way to do it. Attack the leader and even if you lose

you end up a member. I realize that's twisted, but prison is a

twisted microcosm of society. That's one reason AA is so big in

prison. It suits the environment. To give you an idea. The bug

spraying man loaned these two guys 30 bucks to buy dope with. It

was green, that means real currency and has double value inside.

Instead of repaying him, they killed him, stabbed him 22 times.

They were prosecuted and convicted. Both guys had IQ's in

excess of 130 and neither threw their shank(knife) away. The

blood residue convicted them. Strange. But that's the twisted way

of it. One guy's name was Evilsizer, maybe that says something.

Many guys that acted like everyday folks in prison got wierd in the

free world. That may be the case with Jim K. The General

Meeting chair of The AA group, guy about thirty, nice actin' guy,

personable, raped and killed two sisters in their 80's. You never

know. He is doing a term of years (99) and will get out

someday.Brrrrr. He did something similar when he was 15 and

was treated by the state and released, so he's killed three folks

and if he lives will get another chance. He'll be 64 years old when

released if he gets no parole. Odds are he'll get a parole in his late

40's. Most violent folks " age out " of violent behavior around age 45.

Not all, just most. That's why in early AA they thought they'd

cured the wife beaters. Actually they had just aged out, a very

normal phenomenon. This is well known today, yet AA hangs onto

it's belief that it's the program that did it.

I truly hope Jim K finds a home and doesn't have to go back to the

joint to find it. It's so damn tragic when a guy gets so tied in to the

code of conduct that it becomes real. It's a survival tool like

pleasing an abuser, but it don't work in the real world.

Just surviving is good enough for a while. There comes a time I

need more than that. Everyone does and evryone deserves it.

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