Guest guest Posted June 11, 1999 Report Share Posted June 11, 1999 , What you described was exactly what was starting to leave a bad taste in my mind as I sat in meetings and then found myself struggling with the stepspeak. For instance, at one of my first meetings, a man with 12 years said he still stole a little, but he hadn't had a drink that day and that was all that mattered. I remember sitting there a little confused because I had made the decision that not only did I want to be sober but also clean up my self-destructive behaviors and ways of thinking. I thought everybody in AA felt that way and the members would also encourage good behavior and decent treatment of others. But over and over again I'd hear that anything goes as long as one is sober and after some years it was making me sick. It's such a goofy philosophy there - I see people making amends when they are abused but not when they abuse others. ----Original Message----- To: 12-step-freeegroups <12-step-freeegroups> Date: Thursday, June 10, 1999 12:20 PM Subject: Re: I'm the wacko >Hi Jan; > >You mentioned men who tailor there 12 step actually 13 step work >to new young women. Very vulnerable young women, who have >been beaten down by life with alcoholism. AA or not, these guys >are sexual predators. If it was The Lions Club, they would get a >resignation request. However, the AA doctrine allows folks to look >the other way and giggle. > >I have a married pal with nearly 40 years sober and he's still at it. >Or was two years ago, which was the last time I saw him. To me >this is a lack of moarals and self control, consistent with being >helpless over one's urges. It is consistent with the AA doctrine of >powerlessness and lack of responsibilities. If I'm attracted to one >of my wife's friends, I am not responsible for the thought, but I >damnwell am responsible for what I do about it! I control my >conduct, period! No higher power is going to rescue me from being >an adulterer, it's my desire and knowlege to be a family man that >stops me. Besides which, Rose would not look the other way and >say " Well, at least he's sober " She'd do surgery on me! Her self >respect could not allow me to do that without her taking some kind >of action. I believe these things are usually unspoken and totally >understood in a marriage relationship. > >How could I claim morals and heap abuse on my wife at the same >time? To me that's totally irrational. But such is the nature of AA, >where success is not measured by the content of a person's >character, but by the number of years they have abstained from the >use of alcohol. Am I one of a vocal minority that says this picture >sucks? Or are we who see this in the majority, some forced into >silence, some intimidated into silence and many just not >connected since we have no central source of connection, save the >internet? > >I can't help but believe it's the latter. Rural AA groups are dying >and what starts on the farm, eventually gets to the city. > >Till later > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >What's everyone looking at? Check out the Top40 most requested stocks! >Plus quotes, charts, news, portfolios, mutual funds, and discussion. >All free, fast, and easy. Visit: http://clickhere./click/237 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 1999 Report Share Posted June 12, 1999 At 05:56 AM 6/11/99 -0400, Rio wrote: >, > >What you described was exactly what was starting to leave a bad taste in my >mind as I sat in meetings and then found myself struggling with the >stepspeak. For instance, at one of my first meetings, a man with 12 years >said he still stole a little, but he hadn't had a drink that day and that >was all that mattered. I remember sitting there a little confused because I >had made the decision that not only did I want to be sober but also clean up >my self-destructive behaviors and ways of thinking. I thought everybody in >AA felt that way and the members would also encourage good behavior and >decent treatment of others. But over and over again I'd hear that anything >goes as long as one is sober and after some years it was making me sick. >It's such a goofy philosophy there - I see people making amends when they >are abused but not when they abuse others. This type of action appears ubiquitous in AA, and continues because the dogma separates " The Program " from the members who allegedly work it. I'm not sure I can put all this into words, but this touches on so much of the worst aspects of AA. The black-and-white thinking adds to this anything-but-drinking-goes attitude - the thought that " The most important thing is not drinking " easily becomes " The only important thing is not drinking. " Even when things other than not drinking were discussed (such as honesty, which to many AA's the only aspect of honesty they may be aware of is 'cash- register honesty', meaning not stealing), the slogan " progress, not perfection " often comes up. Yes, we're all imperfect, but I'd rather be around people with higher standards than the average I saw in AA meetings. Likely AA's description of the alcoholic, whether sober or not, as a lying, thieving, cheating criminal is effectively a self-fulfilling prophecy. I was about a year sober, trying to tell my sponsor about some personal aspect of my life that wasn't going anywhere (perhaps a lack of romantic relationships, but the exact thing isn't important here), and all he did was yell at me " The only thing AA guarantees you is you will stay sober. " I thought, but what about the promises? I couldn't expect anything else in my life to get better? I don't know if he truly believed that overall, or if he was saying that to me because he though that the situation I was in was helpless, and he didn't want to let my hopes get up. ----- <http://listen.to/benbradley> New and Improved! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 1999 Report Share Posted June 12, 1999 Hi Ben; I believe most drunks like myself want what I call an ordinary life. No more lyin' , cheatin, corner cutting and so on. However, once instilled with the idea that abstaining from alcohol is all that matters, it's natural enough to save some old habits. If it's acceptable, why not? In my own defense, I refused to look at it that way. When I finally got sober for keeps I had IIRC 9 felony convictions, and had done three long county jail sentences, one or two probations and 4 years on a 25 in The State Penitentiary. I had enjoyed as much of that as I could stand! 8-) Yet with that and perhaps 40 detox centers and 6 months in a state mental health facility behind me, Dr Laing assured me I could win this battle. I believed her, where I did not believe the AA people. The reason is simple enough. Outside of abstaining from alcohol all the AA people I knew well, were not anybody I would want to emulate. Wife beaters, kid beaters, adulterers, 40 year old men still living rent free off their parents(And making big money and stashing it) Hustlers of all varieties and etc. On the other hand, Dr Laing same age as me, divorced, private practice, took three vacations a year to ride the trains to see her kids, degrees from three universities and a very pleasant person. She had a life. It's not 100% that a successful person would be able to teach me to succeed, but it's a damnsite better shot than learning success from a failure! I don't really mean these guys were failures, just I felt I was already better off than they were. I learned with a little motivation, maintaining abstinence wasn't all that tough. Growing, that got tough, buckets of tears and barrels of fears(Hey that rhymes 8-) After the first couple of weeks abstinence became a given, because I couldn't do what I wanted and drink. Drinking took away my options, I fully believe it still would. That's one thing in AA I bought into. That I'll never be able to drink in moderation. It's really immaterial, because after 8 years of working, sleeping, loving and playing without it, who needs it?+ Being independent, I can do things that give me a " Feel Good " most any time I want. How many times I have heard " It's supposed to get better, when does it get better? " in AA meetings. Sometimes I wanted to answer something like " Well when you find out why you hate women and desparately want one at the same time, maybe then it will get better. " Of course I don't think 100 inventories will help, but a shrink might. The end result is that AA limited my options almost as much as the booze. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 1999 Report Share Posted June 12, 1999 At 06:50 PM 6/12/99 -0400, you wrote: >At 05:56 AM 6/11/99 -0400, Rio wrote: <snip> >>It's such a goofy philosophy there - I see people making amends when they >>are abused but not when they abuse others. I read this sentence before and it struck a chord and I couldn't think why. Now that I read it again I know what it is. The REASON those people are more likely to make amends when THEY are abused than when they abuse others is that they feel more guilty when they are abused than they do when they abuse others. This sounds insane, and it is. But that is where a self-undermining self-betraying 12 step program can take you. > The black-and-white thinking adds to this anything-but-drinking-goes >attitude - the thought that " The most important thing is not drinking " >easily becomes " The only important thing is not drinking. " <snip> > Yes, we're all imperfect, but I'd rather be around people with higher >standards than the average I saw in AA meetings. Likely AA's description of >the alcoholic, whether sober or not, as a lying, thieving, cheating criminal >is effectively a self-fulfilling prophecy. <snip> I think the reason why I felt so uncomfortable around people who were congratulating themselves for staying sober (or clean) and who were still hurting others in some way, usually newcomers, is obvious to me now. I felt uncomfortable because the 12 step programs seemed to be about helping rotten, abusive human beings to take advantage of vulnerable people and yet still feel comfortable with themselves whilst not changing or becoming better people, but simply giving them a bullshit language, with programmy things to say in meetings about " I'm still only human " , " I'm still no angel " (laughter from knowing members, very funny, ha ha). And of course it is the people who are abused by such predatory members who are verbally attacked for daring to complain about their treatment by people with more " time " , and are told to take thier inventories, and pray to have *their* character defects removed. Joe Berenbaum ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 1999 Report Share Posted June 12, 1999 At 07:07 PM 6/12/99 -0600, you wrote: <snip> >...Outside of abstaining from alcohol >all the AA people I knew well, were not anybody I would want to >emulate. Wife beaters, kid beaters, adulterers, 40 year old men >still living rent free off their parents(And making big money and >stashing it) Hustlers of all varieties and etc. > >On the other hand, Dr Laing same age as me, divorced, private >practice, took three vacations a year to ride the trains to see her >kids, degrees from three universities and a very pleasant person. >She had a life. It's not 100% that a successful person would be >able to teach me to succeed, but it's a damnsite better shot than >learning success from a failure! I don't really mean these guys >were failures, just I felt I was already better off than they were. Hi . This I go along with. The basic belief in AA is that someone like them (like them " alcoholics " ) is profoundly different from a normal person (the " disease " that they like to think they have) and so someone like that needs the company, example and guidance of others who are similar. If they really were different from normal people and were indeed living miraculously with an incurable disease, it might make some sense, but none of that is true! They are normal people who have certain thinking and behavioural problems that they tried to solve with drink or drugs, mostly without success, and otherwise they are plain old, boring, normal people, just not very healthy people. They would benefit greatly from studying and emulating not their own sad AA oldtimer puppets but people who have demonstrated some degree of mental health and personal effectiveness. But the whole cult of addiction-recovery-spirituality is focused on pathology, on what-is-wrong, not on what is healthy. It is modelling itself on its own sickness. Joe Berenbaum ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 1999 Report Share Posted June 12, 1999 Hi Ben; I agree mostly. Grant that alcoholism is exactly what aa says it is. That is a sort of physical allergy, coupled with a mental obsession or compulsion to drink. Is not clinical depression of a similar nature? A chemical imbalance coupled with the mental propensity for depression? If the above is true would we ask the shrink if s/he was a victim of clinical depression before we allowed them to treat us? Doesn't make sense. The analogy is the best I could come up with on the spur of the moment. In the BB, the doctor's chapter calls the steps " Moral Psychology " I wonder what " Immoral Psychology " is? Seriously, isn't it just another dumb statement to give the 12 steps some special validity? The idea of sharing with similar people is a good one. However, with something that's life threatening, doesn't it just make good sense to call in the pro's? Why I didn't do just that 25 years earlier still amazes me. I don't lose any sleep over getting sucked in, I have lots of company and I did in fact get loose. Dr Laing did some deprogramming on me, though I never thought of it as that at the time. Several times from about 6 weeks on she asked if I felt powerless and when I replied no, she asked how it felt to be powerful? ly I like feeling in command of myself. It has it's little penalties. When I screw up, it's just me hanging out there in plain view. Of course when all goes well, it's just me taking the credit and deserving it. Sounds like a simple principle and one most men live with, however, say it around an AA and everybody acts like you took a dump on the floor! The AA is stunted and does not believe he can control his own conduct, thus it must be impossible for someone similarly situated to do so. So at first they nod sagely at each other because there is only three possible solutions A the drydrunk syndrome, B never was an alcoholic or C lies. However, over time they see me going about my business with no more than usual problems. Then they will attack me verbally. I suppose they fear I might be correct. The twelve steps if worked along with an AA group makes me without hope, without power and without the ability to think, which makes me narrow minded and sometimes downright mean. Strange, that exactly describes my drinking personality. PS, does that mean if I work the program, I'm a drydrunk? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 1999 Report Share Posted June 13, 1999 , sometimes I think the whole AA thing is a huge government conspiracy to disempower people, so we're more easily manipulated by Powers Greater than ourselves. Leaning back and letting " HP " run the show is just about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Of COURSE it's not HP who's running the show, but the governments, the corporations, and all the power-hungry schmucks who really pull the strings. Why do AAs seem to forget that? I don't think the power-hungry schmucks would really support a program which empowers people. It's so much nicer to have them subdued. Notice how AAs take out the ol' " invisible cat-o'-nine-tails " when they talk about themselves. Whip whip flog flog. Boy does that feel good. I was a selfish greedy bastard. Self-serving self-centered selfishness masquerading as greed and pride in reverse. Apple ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 1999 Report Share Posted June 13, 1999 I can recall only one time a member was really reprimanded for his bad behavior and it was serious - it couldn't be ignored. He fondled a daughter of another member at the local AA club. He was barred from the club. No escuse for what he did; however, the couple whose daughter was molested just about lived at the AA club with their kids. They'd play cards and go to umpteen meetings and let the kids run wild around the club. I never thought kids should be at the AA meetings especially the clubs. They are basically bars without booze. The kids are usually not disciplined to behave themselves. And they are exposed to alot of coarse language and sickos like the guy described above. But cults want the young ones - indoctrinate them early, I guess. Jan Re: : Bad Taste of AA At 06:50 PM 6/12/99 -0400, you wrote: >At 05:56 AM 6/11/99 -0400, Rio wrote: <snip> >>It's such a goofy philosophy there - I see people making amends when they >>are abused but not when they abuse others. I read this sentence before and it struck a chord and I couldn't think why. Now that I read it again I know what it is. The REASON those people are more likely to make amends when THEY are abused than when they abuse others is that they feel more guilty when they are abused than they do when they abuse others. This sounds insane, and it is. But that is where a self-undermining self-betraying 12 step program can take you. > The black-and-white thinking adds to this anything-but-drinking-goes >attitude - the thought that " The most important thing is not drinking " >easily becomes " The only important thing is not drinking. " <snip> > Yes, we're all imperfect, but I'd rather be around people with higher >standards than the average I saw in AA meetings. Likely AA's description of >the alcoholic, whether sober or not, as a lying, thieving, cheating criminal >is effectively a self-fulfilling prophecy. <snip> I think the reason why I felt so uncomfortable around people who were congratulating themselves for staying sober (or clean) and who were still hurting others in some way, usually newcomers, is obvious to me now. I felt uncomfortable because the 12 step programs seemed to be about helping rotten, abusive human beings to take advantage of vulnerable people and yet still feel comfortable with themselves whilst not changing or becoming better people, but simply giving them a bullshit language, with programmy things to say in meetings about " I'm still only human " , " I'm still no angel " (laughter from knowing members, very funny, ha ha). And of course it is the people who are abused by such predatory members who are verbally attacked for daring to complain about their treatment by people with more " time " , and are told to take thier inventories, and pray to have *their* character defects removed. Joe Berenbaum www. - Simplifying group communications eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free www. - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 1999 Report Share Posted June 13, 1999 >The reason is simple enough. Outside of abstaining from alcohol all the AA people I knew well, were not anybody I would want to emulate. Wife beaters, kid beaters, adulterers, 40 year old men still living rent free off their parents(And making big money and stashing it) Hustlers of all varieties and etc. < Or the members who give advice on relationships who have had 4-5 or more marriages. My husband kept asking members about raising children and I said once why ask people who were drunk the bulk of their children's lives about child care? Get your advice from people who live clean and sober lives. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ FREE email Newsletters delivered right to your in-box. CNET, USAToday, RollingStone, and more… Click Here Now! http://clickhere./click/314 eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 1999 Report Share Posted June 13, 1999 has said he only got help when he went to therapy. Reminds me of how many members in AA claim that they never could get sober with psychiatrists, church, on their own, etc. etc. (anything but The Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous). And insinuate to all the new ones that they will never get sober with anything but The Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. What they don't say is that there are people who got sober with the help of psychiatrists - they don't attend AA meetings. There are people who got sober with the help of their religious faith - they don't attend AA meetings. There are people who made a decision on their own not to problem drink anymore - they don't attend AA meetings. Jan ---------------------------------------------------------------- eGroups now offers FREE email newsletters! Women.com, RollingStone, Travelocity, and more… Sign-up Now! http://clickhere./click/315 eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 1999 Report Share Posted June 13, 1999 Hi Apple; Agreed, but the powers that be have no trouble with being greedy. Here's an example " A little greed can be a good thing " Reagan 1983. He was talking about Milken the junk bond king and praising him for his enterprise. Of course that enterprise sent him to prison, but what's a few months and a 400 million fine when you've a 20 billion profit! Anheiser-Busch doesn't support AA because they are philanthropist's. If AA holds control of the recovery movement there will be very little real recovery and A-B looks good. They can have it and eat it both. AA's 2 year sobriety rate is below 2% so where is the recovery? AA is finding that in some cases the sober people are leaving and the drinkers staying. However, I was one of the drinkers, only staying sober about three months at a time. I was sober on the installment plan until I got out of AA. The same thing that prevented you from saying hello to the woman while shopping, kept me drinking, SHAME. The stuff AA was heaping on me was just more abuse and my PTSD got worse. I couldn't even eat in a resturaunt for fear of a ptsd attack. Getting that bloody stepspeak out of my head was and still is the toughest part. We communicate in meaningless phrases for so long that an ordinary conversation is difficult in the extreme. We are led to believe that ordinary people don't understand us. That's one of the nastiest lies ever told. I was shocked when I realized that The Barber I go to understands me better than any AA ever did and he doesn't drink! Said he quit drinking when he was in Barber College and he's a bit older than me.(I'm 61) A good share of what we believe while in AA is just not true and this skews our view of the world something awful. I have a suggestion that sounds silly, but worked for me, in regards to talking with women again. Chat up the store clerks, be they 16 or 60. They're a captive audience. That ability to just open a conversation whenever and wherever will come. It just takes time and practice to realize the building won't fall in on us. I was married when I left AA for good and had to learn how to talk with my wife. Getting over the stepspeak and AA control is a no funner, but worth the effort. What AA did to me I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. I just never disliked anyone that much. I hope you're being treated for that depression. My wife has clinical depression and that stuff is nothing to screw around with. She takes Prozac which makes a world of difference in her. I can tell from the outside that the attacks are farther apart and appear to be milder than before. Remember that you were in AA a long time and have forgotten how to do many everyday social things. It's like doing them for the first time all over again. For me the big helper has been time. Giving myself the time. Realizing I was in a deep hole and giving myself the time to get out. After seven years I'm out of the hole. Now my project is to fill the damn thing up so I don't fall back in at some future time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 1999 Report Share Posted June 13, 1999 Hi I posted the diddy on making normal human contact and it's good to hear that others are going thru what I am presently. It will take forever it seems before that Shame issue with me is managable. I was given a toxic dose of it from my parents. Mother was psycotic in the last years before she died, which is where I was the target of incredible rage from her. Dad decided to drink himself numb afterwards. So, as the only child, I naturally am the one to carry a bunch of guilt and shame. AA always said that it was all my fault. Bullshit!!! I say. I do have PSTD and it has gotten worse with my age. A lot of mental re-living all the forms of abuse and trying to make some sort of sense out of it is draining. Not that I do that to amuse myself, it just sort of happens and 1st thing I know- daily major depression sets in. Celexa ( anti-depressant ) seems to help and I get wondering just how long I will need treatment for it. So far, most of my life. I know it has to get better. I just feel so disconnected from everything now that I have chosen to de-program from the stepspeak AA lies. I too had my ego and pride crushed by my parents first and then by the AA doctrine. So - I have the task of re-building myself from the inside out. That is a scary thought. Brainwashing is a tough thing to combat- I always did not feel that I belonged in AA in the first place. But I went along because of the ego/pride/shame issue. I guess that I sought out the same environment that I was used to. Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 1999 Report Share Posted June 14, 1999 Hi Bob; First off I'd guess your self diagnosis is on the money. I sought out folks who would treat me badly and had no trouble finding them! I had two years of therapy with a psychologist who knew nothing of AA until I gave her a BB. She trashed AA and recomended I not go. Even though she was getting me better and 30 years in AA had made me worse, I went anyway and it ended in disaster. No, I never drank, but my wife was visciously attacked for a period of three months by an AA counsellor. The counsellor finally stepped far enough over the line and lost her State Lisence, but not before a lot of temporary damage was done.. The AA group watched the whole thing from the sidelines minding their own stuff. Must have got to them on some level though as the group with 100 members disintegrated in a years time. It no longer exists. My wife's not a drunk, she was The Alateen sponsor for the group and I was GSR. That was over seven years ago. Six months after using confidential information for blackmail, The Counsellor re applied and got her liscence back in another town. I was supposed to be informed if she tried to get her lisence back, but some AA buddies at the state level helped her bypass the reinstatement process and got her a brand new lisence. The woman is a certifiable ppsychotic, but as long as she mouths the AA doctrine she's OK to counsell folks. Sickening isn't it? Seek out a shrink that can see AA for what it is. If they believe AA is OK, I don't want them near me. The steps are ego-smashers designed to make a non thinker out of folks. After being subjected to that for any length of time, we find it difficult to make decisions in a reasonable length of time. Bob, I also suffered from ptsd and it's a bitch, a 100% no funner. I haven't had any symptoms for nearly seven years, perhaps a bit over. The psychologist worked what I still sometimes feel is magic for me. After suffering with that crap from age 10 to age 52, you can imagine it felt like a miracle to be relieved of it! My release is probably not a miracle, but it will always feel like one to me. The biggie was time, giving myself time and quitting beating myself over those instant replays. Letting them run their course and stopping them a little bit shorter each time. It only took a few months for the physical pain to be gone. It took 5 years or thereabouts to stop the replays, the fights in my head that I always won, but couldn't repeat in the real world. I've been there Bob, but I had a shrink who told me I could win this battle for real and I believed her. Hang tough friend. Write me privately anytime if you'd like. I'll be more than glad to share my memories of my therapy with you. The old crap has lost 99+ percent of it's power over me and I can easily deal with that tiny fraction that's left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 1999 Report Share Posted June 14, 1999 Hey Jan; On the money! Since I've opened my eyes I've noticed many sober alcoholics who quit years ago and never even called themselves alcoholics. They just quit due to some problem and stayed quit. I think AA is afraid of these folks lest we all get together and we turn out to be much larger than AA's truly sober membership. AA's only defense is that we are not alcoholics. However since lots of us were called alcoholics by AA and its' centers, it makes a dilemna for AA to reverse itself after 20 or 30 years of treating someone for a condition they didn't have. They don't even say they are sorry 8-) What a bunch of narrow minded, circular reasoning jerks. My wife noted that when I was in AA, I was by AA's defenition on a drydrunk, jumpy, temper just below the surface, combative if things didn't go my way, the whole 40 miles. Trust me, I'm not like that today. I put it off on the " One day at a time " philosophy of AA that kept me thinking about problems that needed no more thought and kept " My Teeth on Edge " as I call it. That means that feeling that I almost have a toothache, all the time. That's a no funner! About a month or two after my last AA meeting, Rose remarked on how much better my general temprament was. It has continued over these past seven years to improve a bit here and a bit there. I feel more secure and more confident than I ever did while around AA. It's not that my circumstances or finances are that much better, it's my attitude and outlook that have changed. There's never " Enough " money or time. However these are common problems shared by most everyone. Drinking would deplete both time and money, so is hardly an option as a solution. An old judge once told me, " , if you ever stay sober for two consecutive years, they won't be able to make whiskey good enough for you to drink! " He was right. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 1999 Report Share Posted June 14, 1999 Hi Jan; That was why in a nutshell I never fully assimilated into AA. I kept looking for truly decent men with long term sobriety. I kept being told to have " Tolerance " for their imperfections. Well, I felt that what I was seeing fit closer under " Criminal and anti social " behavior than imperfections. A guy who constantly drives too fast on the highway has an imperfection, a guy who has Kiddie Porn in his briefcase is a criminal!(That is if he's not a cop on a case, which this guy wasn't) The nude picture, compromising, of what appeaered to me to be a 10 year old girl, fell out of a folder that fell out of the guy's briefcase. He was sitting next to me in a speakers meeting and was getting his notes for when the speaker called on him. I handed the folder back to him, and didn't say anything. I really wanted to throw up. When he got up to talk, I split and never went back to that club. Since he had that picture with him at the club, I figured he was not the only pedophile there. He's lucky Rose wasn't with me, she'd have done what I was too indoctrinated to do and made an issue of it then and there! This happened long before I met Rose, but it seems as if I never was with another woman. I kid about marriage, but marrying Rose was perhaps the best one move I ever made. She has been a huge help during my seven years of unlearning AA. I'm not sure I would have had the Chutzpah, to do it totally for myself in the beginning. It was the unprovoked attack on Rose that finally awakened me to what kind of bottom of the barrel folks inhabit AA and maintain abstinence there. They are forced to be there, because nowhere else will their conduct be tolerated! I've raved enough(For now) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 1999 Report Share Posted June 14, 1999 Hi Did you ever consider posting that therapist's name somewhere to warn folks?? The one who steered me into AA 15 years ago moved his practice to Denver and still is practicing today. I my confront him some day - Salt Lake is 12 hours to denver by auto. My current therapist agrees with me that back then in the mid 80's that many large corporations had contracts with therapists to put the " problem " ones into AA. The Russians had a good idea with thier handling alcoholics- 2 years minimum in a goulag work camp ( locked facility ) in Siberia. We should be so lucky. Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 1999 Report Share Posted June 14, 1999 , What are the symptoms of PTSD? I've heard it referred to quite alot in regard to Vietnam Veterans and lately more with victims of child abuse. Jan Re: : Bad Taste of AA Hi Bob; First off I'd guess your self diagnosis is on the money. I sought out folks who would treat me badly and had no trouble finding them! I had two years of therapy with a psychologist who knew nothing of AA until I gave her a BB. She trashed AA and recomended I not go. Even though she was getting me better and 30 years in AA had made me worse, I went anyway and it ended in disaster. No, I never drank, but my wife was visciously attacked for a period of three months by an AA counsellor. The counsellor finally stepped far enough over the line and lost her State Lisence, but not before a lot of temporary damage was done.. The AA group watched the whole thing from the sidelines minding their own stuff. Must have got to them on some level though as the group with 100 members disintegrated in a years time. It no longer exists. My wife's not a drunk, she was The Alateen sponsor for the group and I was GSR. That was over seven years ago. Six months after using confidential information for blackmail, The Counsellor re applied and got her liscence back in another town. I was supposed to be informed if she tried to get her lisence back, but some AA buddies at the state level helped her bypass the reinstatement process and got her a brand new lisence. The woman is a certifiable ppsychotic, but as long as she mouths the AA doctrine she's OK to counsell folks. Sickening isn't it? Seek out a shrink that can see AA for what it is. If they believe AA is OK, I don't want them near me. The steps are ego-smashers designed to make a non thinker out of folks. After being subjected to that for any length of time, we find it difficult to make decisions in a reasonable length of time. Bob, I also suffered from ptsd and it's a bitch, a 100% no funner. I haven't had any symptoms for nearly seven years, perhaps a bit over. The psychologist worked what I still sometimes feel is magic for me. After suffering with that crap from age 10 to age 52, you can imagine it felt like a miracle to be relieved of it! My release is probably not a miracle, but it will always feel like one to me. The biggie was time, giving myself time and quitting beating myself over those instant replays. Letting them run their course and stopping them a little bit shorter each time. It only took a few months for the physical pain to be gone. It took 5 years or thereabouts to stop the replays, the fights in my head that I always won, but couldn't repeat in the real world. I've been there Bob, but I had a shrink who told me I could win this battle for real and I believed her. Hang tough friend. Write me privately anytime if you'd like. I'll be more than glad to share my memories of my therapy with you. The old crap has lost 99+ percent of it's power over me and I can easily deal with that tiny fraction that's left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ FREE email Newsletters delivered right to your in-box. CNET, USAToday, RollingStone, and more… Click Here Now! http://clickhere./click/314 eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 1999 Report Share Posted June 14, 1999 Hi Jan; I've been married three times and sometimes give suggestions on relationship matters. However, I feel that Rose and I have made a pretty resounding success out of the last 9 years of our 11 and a half years. I do get your point though. Getting advice from successful folks should be a no brainer, but AA teaches us they are the only ones that understand us, what bull. What do a sexual predator and I have in common? Nothing I hope! Yet that's exactly what my first sponsor was. It took me quite a while to catch on. What happened was, one day I was at his home and the phone rang. His wife got it and said it was for him. He took it in the next room, his wife was fuming. I asked her " What's wrong? " " Oh nothing, just one of XXXX's Bitches, one of many. " I asked " Do you mean a woman he's sponsoring? " She replied " Well, I've heard it called a lot of things, but not sponsoring. " I didn't push it farther. I was so taken in and indoctrinated that I honestly thought she didn't understand about sponsoring. However, after while I realized she understood what was going on and I didn't. How could he do this, we are supposed to be honest? I figured anyone with ten years sobriety was ready to be cannonized. It was then I began to look beyond the rhetoric to the men. I didn't like the rot I saw, but what was I to do? It was AA or die drunk. Trouble was, I was headed toward dying drunk with AA. For a long time, 20 odd years I tried to have " Tolerance " , I couldn't get it. These folks were frauds of the worst kind. I could easily tolerate a guy having a mistress, that's between his wife the other woman and him. OTOH for a guy to have a mistress, pretend honesty, pretend he's faithful to his wife, and preach and lecture about marriage fidelity, NO. To me that's being a fake. To me, playing the fraud is worse than the act of having the mistress. I'm speaking as this guy's pigeon. I trusted his every word and he jerked me around. For years I looked for a man of ordinary moral qualities to be my sponsor. In the meantime, my next sponsor chose my wife for his mistress and when they got caught, in true AA form, he blamed it on me for being away from home working so much. Boy! Can I pick the winners or what? Well that screwed up that marriage(Pun intended) I sold my half of a business I was in and we moved to another town, but I was treated to an instant replay two months later. I left. 14 years later, I found my man for a sponsor. 74 years old, 2 years sober and a retired deputy sheriff. Nice guy. Naturally, he refused. Told me he wasn't going to sponsor me because he was going to be travelling and having fun with what was left of his time on earth. I sure couldn't blame him for that. It's also exactly what he did and a couple of years later he died. A good man. One day he told me " When you're out there a drinkin' you feel like the world is 80% assholes, ya' get in AA and find out it's a hundred percent assholes " He died about 10 months before I became continuously sober. Wish he was still around, I miss him. Sorry I wrote umpteen re's on one post or thread. I go to my shop, work a couple or three hours, check mail, think of something else and start writing again. The above happened from 1963-90. A lot more happened but those are highlights or lowlights depending on viewpoint. I look back at how gullible I was, and it's difficult for me to realize that really was me. The Con Man who fell for other folk's con games. Seems strange I slipped the hook, as solidly hooked as I was in those days. I guess, by my believing the whole 9 yards, the betrayal loomed so much larger than it otherwise might have. For whatever reason, I got out and it's a lot better out here. I no longer have to depend on someone else to interpret my world, I do that for myself. There's now only one group of folks who don't understand me, members of 12step programs. The rest see me as I really am, not through a step trance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 1999 Report Share Posted June 14, 1999 thank you for your description of PTSD. I have suffered with it since the age of 8 and your description of the self destruct mode that comes on the eve of success is dead on in my life. One of the saddest things for me is remembering early on in my relationship with Mr. AA, his little boy came out and played with my little girl. Innocence and joy run rampant. But then he got into CODA plus he was doing his harrumph hurrah AA show 24 hours a day 7 days a week when he was having wonderful fun so of course it couldn't last. We used to save one day a week just for us. It was magic. We would start with a visit to the duck pond with tons of bread, go to the beach and depending on which one we would play and swim and explore and read and relax and make love if all was clear and it was magic. But little by little the days were cut short by AA meetings. It made me sick. But at least I have the sweet memories of the good days we had. He said he went back to our favorite beach at Bellows and thought to himself, " if Kathy had worked her program, we would be here today. " I have sobbed my heart out over this, my inability to swallow AA and live a lie. Was it Apple that said the search for truth is such a lonely life. It sure is. If I could have been Mrs. AA, if only, if only, but I know I had not a chance in hell of sobriety living a lie. And something funny, he went to Hawaii when we were in New Mexico. On return I found womens underwear and sex toys and lost it. Grief like I couldn't believe. He said, and this is a direct quote, " but Kathy, you should be glad. I've been seeing a prostitute. You know all the women in AA want to date me and I tell them I can't because I'm still married to Kathy. " It left me so dazed and confused and grief stricken. Oh well, enough down memory lane. But your writings are bringing up so much for me. Kathy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 1999 Report Share Posted June 14, 1999 Hi Jan; I understand they vary pretty widely. I had two different ones. The biggie A slight twitchy nervous stomach feeling, followed shortly by cramp like pain so intense I would pass out. I usually wouldn't be out long unless of course I hit my head falling. Eating would sometimes bring it on, so I never ate in public. I lived in fear of it happening while I was up high on a ladder or even at the top of a stairway. Alcohol would make the pain go away, if I could get some down, but would always prevent it starting. So whenever I worked up high, so was I. It was safer, sounds screwy, but drunk is better than unconscious. The other was repetitive playbacks, both awake and in dreams. The playbacks and cramps would start getting really bad as I neared completion of a project or was in the process of building a successful conclusion to something. I lost job after job right before a promotion was due. I really believed at one time that I had cancer and the doctors weren't telling me the truth. God how I was scared all the time. When I went to Dr Laing and she said PTSD, I said " C'Mon doc, guys in wars get PTSD, I was 1y and that's after the women and children. " " I've never been near a war, a prison riot yes, but not a war, period. " The good doctor said " , you were very much in a war, one you had no chance of winning. " " You are wrong , most boys DO NOT get concussions and fractures as discipline, just because they are boys or for any other reason " Her talk brought back memories, things I hadn't thought of for around forty or more years. She assured me I wouldn't remember anything I couldn't handle, but in case it got spooky, she gave me her home phone number and told me to call. She also assured me this was a battle I could win. I don't know if I had absolute faith in her then, but I do recall believing her. She also at some point told me that once I had a realization, I wouldn't be able to go back or make it go away, regardless how painfull it was. In the event, the pain of remembering and going through some of the crap all over again, wasn't as bad as the PTSD. AA says anger is a bad thing. When I found out this ptsd was my mind and body's natural reaction to the beatings my father dished out, I wasn't angry. All I wanted to do was exhume the sob and kick his corpse to pieces! And the anger felt great! It was finally aimed where it belonged, not at me, but him! Fairly early on in my therapy that intense pain went away, but I didn't trust that because I had been free of attacks as long as three months a few times before. However this time it really was gone and hasn't returned. The dreams hung around a while longer. Last week I had a repeat dream, but it didn't resemble the old ones and was just puzzling as opposed to scary. Turned out it was my old AA stuff challenging me in my sleep, it doesn't have a chance while I'm awake. Here is something a bit strange, but everyone who has been there will understand and others will if they try. IIRC before a year was gone, the doctor told me I would need to learn to play. As a child I never had a chance to learn. I was far too busy pleasing my father to keep him happy or sometimes just staying out of his way. Rose my wife is a childhood incest survivor and was given the same instruction. We were seeing the doc concurrently. So we started pretty slowly trying some slides and swings in a campground park before the season began(No one around) When I was a kid I hated my name and wanted the name Rex. So at 53 and 49 respectively, Rex and Rosie went out to play, and many times did not want to come back, we are free, no one can stop us, but us. No one can take it away, ever. I've told this ten times probably, but still tear up and have to blow my nose a dozen times. It's emotionally supercharged to feel free for the first time, and it only gets better. We had driven 30 miles to find an empty park. There was a children's park bordering our yard, but we didn't want folks to see us. The next time was a Saturday in the kids park, after a slow hesitant start, we went like a house afire. It was great, swinging, sliding, flying rubber band powered airplanes and kites. We were accepted, by the kids and ourelves as overage kids. We don't do that often with my heart condition, but sometimes in ideal weather, we get to the park wherever it is. Hope this gives you an idea of what it can be like. I went farther than you asked, on into the recovery phase. But I like to repeat it as often as I can. I think there's a lot more stunted Rex and Rosie's out there who need to be free to go out and PLAY! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 1999 Report Share Posted June 14, 1999 As a wife who has had other women in the program call my husband, I can feel the fumin' in your old sponsor's wife, too. And what made me so mad was at meetings they'd ignore me and make a fuss over him. I'd give them my phone number and tell them to call me and never heard from them. I knew something was up once when I took a call from some gal who asked for him and since we had a business I asked her name and if she needed work done and she said no it has to do with AA. I had had enough and told him he had a call but I said what is she calling you for and he lost his temper and said well you talk to her then. So we talked a bit and she said she was coming in and needed directions to a meeting. After I said how'd she get our number and he said the answering service gave it to her. Later I realized the answering service would never give out members phone numbers to calls to their hot line. AA does so much damage to marriages, it's a wonder there are some couples who go and stay happily married. In those cases, usually its because the husbands never send out come hither signals to other women nor spend time with them. And I noted that the sponsor who seduced your ex-wife claimed you spent too much time at work and not AA meetings. What if you really didn't spend all that much time at work - he would've been in a bind for an excuse. And these people have the gall to split up your marriage and arrogantly confront you with the reasons you screwed up. Nevertheless, it does my heart good to hear a man speak so lovingly of his wife as you do of Rose. She's blessed. Jan Jan Re: : Bad Taste of AA >Hi Jan; > >I've been married three times and sometimes give suggestions on >relationship matters. However, I feel that Rose and I have made a >pretty resounding success out of the last 9 years of our 11 and a >half years. > >I do get your point though. Getting advice from successful folks >should be a no brainer, but AA teaches us they are the only ones >that understand us, what bull. What do a sexual predator and I >have in common? Nothing I hope! Yet that's exactly what my first >sponsor was. It took me quite a while to catch on. What >happened was, one day I was at his home and the phone rang. >His wife got it and said it was for him. He took it in the next room, >his wife was fuming. I asked her " What's wrong? " " Oh nothing, >just one of XXXX's Bitches, one of many. " I asked " Do you mean a >woman he's sponsoring? " She replied " Well, I've heard it called a >lot of things, but not sponsoring. " I didn't push it farther. > >I was so taken in and indoctrinated that I honestly thought she >didn't understand about sponsoring. However, after while I realized >she understood what was going on and I didn't. How could he do >this, we are supposed to be honest? I figured anyone with ten >years sobriety was ready to be cannonized. It was then I began to >look beyond the rhetoric to the men. I didn't like the rot I saw, but >what was I to do? It was AA or die drunk. Trouble was, I was >headed toward dying drunk with AA. For a long time, 20 odd years >I tried to have " Tolerance " , I couldn't get it. These folks were frauds >of the worst kind. I could easily tolerate a guy having a mistress, >that's between his wife the other woman and him. OTOH for a guy >to have a mistress, pretend honesty, pretend he's faithful to his >wife, and preach and lecture about marriage fidelity, NO. To me >that's being a fake. To me, playing the fraud is worse than the act >of having the mistress. I'm speaking as this guy's pigeon. I trusted >his every word and he jerked me around. For years I looked for a >man of ordinary moral qualities to be my sponsor. In the >meantime, my next sponsor chose my wife for his mistress and >when they got caught, in true AA form, he blamed it on me for >being away from home working so much. Boy! Can I pick the >winners or what? > >Well that screwed up that marriage(Pun intended) I sold my half of >a business I was in and we moved to another town, but I was >treated to an instant replay two months later. I left. 14 years later, >I found my man for a sponsor. 74 years old, 2 years sober and a >retired deputy sheriff. Nice guy. Naturally, he refused. Told me he >wasn't going to sponsor me because he was going to be travelling >and having fun with what was left of his time on earth. I sure >couldn't blame him for that. It's also exactly what he did and a >couple of years later he died. A good man. One day he told me > " When you're out there a drinkin' you feel like the world is 80% >assholes, ya' get in AA and find out it's a hundred percent >assholes " He died about 10 months before I became continuously >sober. Wish he was still around, I miss him. > >Sorry I wrote umpteen re's on one post or thread. I go to my shop, >work a couple or three hours, check mail, think of something else >and start writing again. The above happened from 1963-90. A lot >more happened but those are highlights or lowlights depending on >viewpoint. I look back at how gullible I was, and it's difficult for me >to realize that really was me. The Con Man who fell for other folk's >con games. Seems strange I slipped the hook, as solidly hooked >as I was in those days. I guess, by my believing the whole 9 >yards, the betrayal loomed so much larger than it otherwise might >have. > >For whatever reason, I got out and it's a lot better out here. I no >longer have to depend on someone else to interpret my world, I do >that for myself. There's now only one group of folks who don't >understand me, members of 12step programs. The rest see me as >I really am, not through a step trance. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Make the News Come to you! FREE email newsletters sent directly to >your in-box USAToday, Forbes, Wired, and more. Sign-up NOW! >http://clickhere./click/316 > > >eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free > - Simplifying group communications > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 1999 Report Share Posted June 14, 1999 Hi Jan; In truth we are both blessed. She stuck when maybe she should have left, right at the end of my drinking. I was a bastard like all drunks. However, I didn't fool with other women, even during my drinking. Somewhere along the line she chose to forgive my money spending, getting our phone taken out and other stuff like that. Of course we got all that stuff back, but I still remember when....... After that AA Counsellor attacked her, there were times her depression was so bad I was afraid to leave her alone. It only lasted two weeks, but it was a scary two weeks. After it was over she said no man had ever stuck with her before when the world had beaten her up. She figured staying had been the right choice. Now we're cashing in on the payoff for the really tough times. We play a lot. We have fun, we sit on the front stoop, hold hands and wave at the folks driving by. Ordinary stuff, but for so damn many years neither of us had " ordinary " and it feels great! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 1999 Report Share Posted June 15, 1999 Hi Kathy; They do for me too. Rose and I went concurrently to a psychologist and I'm sooo glad she suggested it. I had given up, but Rose hadn't. She suggested I see Dr Laing. My first session and first sober day, October 20, 1990. Dr laing told me I could win and I believed, I still do. Rose and I were starcrossed and didn't stand a chance in hell, but here we are. We both caught on. AA meetings and Alanon had gotten us nowhere. If I go to two meetings a day, talk about what went on the other 22 hours, when do I begin trying to live what I learned? Never because if you try to really live AA it isn't viable. It's too narrow and rigid for human people. AA's do most of their living in their imagination, not in the world. Unfortunately it's usually like your hubby(EX I think) said " If only... and then qualify it by blaming it on someone else or some institution " It's never what you said, you said " If only I " see the difference I'm sure He thought YOU had to do something. You looked at yourself and said I cannot do that. To any outside observer, it is obvious, you are in reality in your thinking, he is not. The situation is immaterial. When I think in terms of what I can do, I am in command. When I think in terms of what Rose can do for me, I'm being helpless and wishing. Cold sounding maybe, but true for all of that. Letting our kids out to play is so free feeling, we can protect them now. We are the big ones now. We tolerate no abusers verbal or otherwise. We live. Playing is a big piece of that living. Flying a kite is so much joy when there's nobody that can say crap if we break it. It just feels so much like that phrase " Dare to be Free " That one day, a couple of single mothers came over with their kids and Rose and I had extra kites and we all got into it, afterwards we pooled resources and grilled enough hamburgers in our backyard for everyone. I see this one woman's oldest son, now married, every now an then. Everytime we talk he asks " Do you remember the day we flew the kites? " Like I'm ever likely to forget! It was freedom day #1 for me. Yes I remember every minute of it. After we were all full of burgers I brought out the guitar and we sang old songs till we were all wore out and it was dark. Perfect ending to a perfect day. A person doesn't get too many of those, we mostly have to settle for OK or good, but if I'm out there trying, another will come along, it won't be luck, it will be because I was out there and I'm not helpless, I can do things. I was originally rather shocked that the alcohol craving went away when I quit the one day at a time and simply thought in terms of a week to begin with. Now my mind goes down the road half a year when planning. I also have no one in my ear saying " You're gonna' get drunk if____________. " Fill in the blank as you like. I can tell you when I'll get drunk, I'll get drunk when I drink alcohol, not before, I won't get drunk on thoughts and since I control my conduct......I don't pick the stuff up and drink it, how tough is that? I also don't have booze in the house in arms reach. I'm not tempting myself, for me that would be foolish. It takes a strong decision to get in the car and drive to the liquor store to get something to kill myself with. Come to think of it, I don't know where there is a liquor store around here. I just moved here last summer, what a trip! 8-) A drunk who doesn't know where the liquor store is, mercy. They probably have it in the grocery store, I just haven't been looking. Absolutely no longing for the bad old days. The replies I'd like to make to an offer of a drink hmmm No thanks, I threw up earlier today No thanks, I've already done time in the penitentiary No thanks, I ran over a kid a few years ago No thanks, I don't like the feel of porcelan against my face On the unfortunately serious AA side. There's no nice way to say that a married man who visits prostitutes in this day of HIV, is saing I'm willing to kill my wife and myself and maybe others. It's no longer even a matter of morality, it's statistics, fool long enough, you are dead or a typhoid , one of the two. I'm serious when I say I never hated anyone enough to put that risk on them. I realize when I was young and in lust I didn't think, but aids wasn't around either. We are in a new very dangerous world where we need command of our conduct, not powerlessness. I enjoyed your post and your courage. It will get better, dudley do rite will come along, you might even know him at the office etc already. Good luck and stick with figuring it out, sounds to me like you are doing darn good. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 1999 Report Share Posted June 15, 1999 Thank you too, . And Apple for getting me in touch with people who understand. Thanks. Kathy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 1999 Report Share Posted June 15, 1999 Hi Rose; Sorry to hear about the crappy custody thing. Glad to hear you are surviving it. I learned I was prone to being betrayed, because I was drawn to abusive people. It was what I was accustomed to. I'd see the seeds of the betrayal in the first week of a relationship, that little mean streak in the other person. I knew it was worse than it appeared, yet I would ignore it or pretend I didn't see it. When it became full blown, I'd make excuses for them and try to pull their slack. All that did was make them expect me to do everything that was their responsibility. When it finally blew up, I'd be the big time loser for unvesting too much of myself in them The end result is that I would look to the world like a crazie and they came off looking normal. Add my alcoholism to that and folks would want to lock me up and give ex wife everything. However, during that time period in my life I never got any length of sobriety. Usually 3 months tops. I never got any sobriety until I quit AA and a couple of years later went into therapy. The therapy gave me a totally new lease on life. I'm married 11-1/2 years now, the other two lasted five each. The first one had me locked up on the advice of her Alanon group, the second had an affair with my AA sponsor and tried to blame it on me. By that time I wasn't having much of being blamed anymore. I forgave that one and we moved a hundred miles away. I had sold my half of the business to my partner before we moved and was hacking a cab till something showed up in the new town. A woman ought never fool around when her husband drives a cab. About two hours into my shift, I caught the Governor's wife. We lived across the street from the governor's mansion. The car of my sponsor from the other town was out front. I stopped and checked the registration to be sure I wasn't being paranoid. He had no legitimate reason to be there. I said nothing, I just moved everything out the next day and moved on, while she was at her job. So I understand in a way what is happening to you. It's a terrible feeling, that of being betrayed by someone you really believed in. Two years after that incident I went to prison with a 25 year sentence for nearly killing a man. In prison strangely I learned loyalty and how to live alone. I made two good friends, learned the law and helped a long list of guys get out early and learned to play guitar. However, I also contracted spinal Tuberculosis. I was paralyzed for a couple of months but recovered. One of the friends I keep in regular contact with. He, his wife and 4 children come up and we ship the kids to the park and the big kids play on the computers. I live in a small rural town, where a stranger around the childrens park is immediately challenged so the kids are as safe as they could be most anywhere and it gives them a sense of freedom not to have a parent over their shoulder like they normally do. Oh, in the event I was behind the walls 4 years of that 25. Guess they figured I was pretty harmless in a body cast, just able to walk. The chairman of the board of parole, a woman I grew to know better after I was out, told me " We gotta' get rid of you, we can't keep the place full with you here " She was only kidding, but it was in reference to a case I won that released a bit over 200 guys in a three month period. When I got out I went to work for a lawyer doing pro bono appellate work, in a pretty big outfit, but I began drinking again as soon as I had the key to success in my hand. I got fired. In the first three months at the law office, I was introduced to the three senior partners and they were going to help me financially to get through school for paralegal and after the requisite 5 years get me a pardon from the Gov, so I could go on to law school. That's what I flushed down the toilet by getting drunk again. I didn't KNOW I had ptsd, or what it was. It was 8 years later I learned I had ptsd and what and why and that AA had made the situation worse. I don't know who I hated worse, the father who I had no choice but to take the beatings from, or the AA people I had allowed to beat me up. Maybe I hated them equally. If just sheer hatred could kill, all those AA folks would have been as dead as my father and he died in 63 and it was 90 when I found out and realized what had happened to me. There is no pretty way to put what I felt. I was walking around right on the threshold of rage, and I knew it, so I stayed away from AA and AA people as much as possible. The anger gradually worked itself out. I rehashed it and just got tired of it. I realized finally that I had been using logical tactics with sick people and sickness knows nothing of logic, it only knows about sickness. I realized the sickness that is AA is a twisted version of an illusion of what they wished reality was. Everything an AA does is predicated on this twisted wish. I also realized I had the sickness too. I was I felt worse than others, because I could see it and was still in a real sense doing it. I quit any conduct, except abstinence that resembled AA. That was over 8 years ago. I no longer use stepspeak and I am not powerless over whether I drink or not, or any other part of my conduct. My conduct or behavior, answers to my command. There is nothing the least mystical or spiritual about that. If I become attracted to another woman, I am not responsible for the thought. I damnwell am responsible for what I do about it. Which will be nothing, because I'm married over 11 years and my wife trusts me. I won't give her a reason to not trust me, period! In the end life got simpler and easier when I took command of, and responsibility for, my actions. An old stepspeak slogan jumps into my head sometimes even now, but they have no power anymore. Good luck to you in your new relationship. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ eGroups.com home: /group/12-step-free - Simplifying group communications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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