Re:

[Guest guest]

Hello to this list.

I have been lurking since February. The reason I have

not posted any messages before now is that I came out on another, similar

list, said who I was and mentioned my feelings about AA, and what I thought

about alcoholism. I was immediately shot down and

informed that alcoholism was a (genetic) disease - and this in an anti-AA

list - and was eventually removed by the moderator.

The main reason I am posting now is that my attitudes to AA are changing

fast and I want to share this with this group as its thinking has been very

important to me over the last few months.

Like Joe, I come from Edinburgh, where I got sober and now live. After

university I moved to France and spent 28 years there, until my life

collapsed around me and I reverted to the place I came from - I think in

order to discover and placate my roots.

I owe my life and my health to AA. I was one of those alcoholics that was

deeply unhappy in childhood and who took to alcohol in late adolescence,

subsequently

following a 'classic' progression to a complete rock bottom - where I had

lost my mind and was quite irrational - and rebirth experience. This was in

July 1997.

So far so good. Subsequently, I went to 6-10 meetings a week and got a lot

out of them, progressively recovering and learning about myself. After 6

months I got depressed as I felt I had to choose between, on the one hand

believing impossible

things, quoted by people who obviously didn't understand them or the

objections to them. and thereby recovering, and on the other respecting my

reason and

contradicting nearly everyone in a circle of kind and otherwise helpful

friends -

basically the only ones I had. Having come into AA to recover my reason, I

didn't particularly want to throw it away.

I resolved the situation by learning more effective use of metaphor thus

freeing myself to follow my intuition, which took me to ACOA. This helped me

a lot. I then progressed to a therapist whom I still see and who is helping

me handle buried memories that had been traumatic to me, and which I place

at the root of the personality disorder I had, and which I recognise as a

dissociative disorder or a form of NPD.

Every time I tried to cut down on m,meetings I found I needed the emotional

support so I kept the meetings up, and I attribute my fast-lane recovery to

my doting this. But I was always innovative and iconoclastic, which

intrigued some and irritated others. Matters came to a head when some old

guy told me that you could be too intelligent for the program but never too

stupid; I pointed out that the only logical conclusion you could draw

from that was that the program was bullshit. Obviously I was too young in

recovery to understand.

During this whole period I have watched younger friends taken over by 'new

AA' (the cult version), which is a good deal more appealing than the smelly

old men so common in Edinburgh AA but also a good deal more dangerous, and I

have

watched them being progressively brainwashed. From being a person whose

ideas and

empathy aided their understanding of themselves I have become (while

remaining still a good friend) a person whose recovery is inexplicable as it

contradicts the rules, and who moreover doesn't do the steps.

I can't do the steps as they are religious; they are not even spiritual as

they lead one back in to the steps rather than out to a new awareness, and

in any case I think they are just a tool for controlling unruly or

frustrated impulses. They promise me serenity, which I already have, and

spiritual awakening, which I also have.

I needed another source of support and so set up a freethinking discussion

group with a friend, who has recently left AA, started drinking and then

decided to stop because he wanted to stop, Targeting AA and non-AA persons

alike. Many people are interested, and the meetings we have had have been

very interesting. My young cult friends just don't understand. Suddenly,

about 6 weeks ago, I developed a feeling of great irritation when in

meetings, and this feeling has got progressively worse. With much

difficulty I stopped going so regularly, and felt relieved

when I gave my time to some other pursuit (e.g. wasting it or working)

instead. I still

go to AA, particularly as I open 2 meetings, but I speak my mind exactly as

I think. People say I have become much clearer; but they attribute this to

my 'head clearing', whereas I attribute it to my having made the decision to

have confidence in my reasoning and thus not try and fit logic into

AA-speak. It is actually impossible.

I value my AA friends and am very grateful for what AA has given me - 2

years ago I was

not expected to live very long - but I just cannot take the meetings,

listening to all these people taking elaborate steps to stay in the same

place or turning into some kind of christion heretic. I am living out in the

world now and have just been given a job (humble but interesting); I have

good personal contact with real people now, as I no longer people-please or

second-guess them, at least not chronically.

Reading this list daily reminds me that I am not a minority of one, but a

normal person with an enquiring mind. But with the initiative I have been

taking I am periodically beset by irrational guilt feelings - themselves

echoes of an abusive childhood - which is precisely the kind of thing that I

am trying to avoid. And my new group meets only once a week, whereas I spend

7 days a week plotting away in the land of the blind.

Hence my post.

Graham

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/11/99 1:31:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, KCHERUB@...

writes:

<< Since you are our official pregnancy expert (can we make this your

title)-I

have a question! Did you have any symptoms that you had never had with

PMS? >>

Now that I think about it, it was probably fatigue, and uncontrollable

yawning. Normally, I'm a night owl, but in my very early pregnancies I

couldn't stay awake past 9 or 10. I remember sometimes falling asleep during

a movie we'd rented, which I normally never do.

<>

Very early, in the first couple months. Like I said, this last time, I was

only around five weeks (by my count, though the docs said seven because they

count from the first day of the last period), and I was already having this

symptom.

BUT, to everybody who's ttc (I finally figured out what that meant!), you can

drive yourself crazy imagining pregnancy symptoms. There have been several

times in my life when I was absolutely 100% sure I was pregnant, and I

wasn't. And this is after I'd been through it several times!

The only true symptom is a positive pregnancy test.

Bye for now,

[Guest guest]

Dear Krista

Just to let you know that some people do adopt when they can easily have

their own. We decided to adopt shortly after my e/p., according to our

doctor I would have no serious problems conceiving again, but we just felt

like why bring another child into the world when there are so many out there

already needing homes. The problem came with the system. In South Africa,

wanting to give a child a home is not enough, you have to prove infertility

before you even qualify. Our doctor was very good about it all, and wrote a

letter to child welfare saying that I have experienced one e/p., and taking

into consideration my risk of having another, he would seriously advise them

to consider us for adoption. They then did approve us, needless to say, we

were extatic! Exactly one month later we received a phone call to say there

is a baby for us.I don't know how you all feel about racial issues, but we

adopted a Black baby. We just never felt that race was an issue for us, and

felt we could not let an innocent child suffer without the loving care of

two parents just because they happen to be a different colour to us. He was

a beautifull baby, the biggest eyes I have ever seen. We named him

Graham(after my husband) Siphiwe ( the name his birth mother chose for him,

we wanted him to keep his identity,to know that his real mommy loved him

enough to give him a name)He was 8 weeks old when we got him, and about a

month later we started getting worried, he cried all the time, and was about

the size of a normal 6 month old. He started to grow at an alarming rate

over the next few weeks, and by the time he was 4 months, he looked like a

12 month old. He started sitting up when he was about 10 weeks, which is

highly unusual. We took him to our pediadrician who called in a growth

specialist, they ran every test in the book, including a bone-age x-ray. The

x-ray showed that he had at 3 months the bone age of a 11 month old baby. We

then called child welfare to let them know what was going on, thinking maby

there was some kind of a mix-up at the hospital, and we got the wrong baby,

but they checked into it, and that wasn't the case. They got intouch with

the birth mother, and it came out that she was raped by her father, and he

was the father of our child. The father was arrested, and we had to take

to court to have paternity tests done to prove that her father was

indeed guilty. It was horrible! we had to wait in this dirty, horrible place

with criminals all around waiting to go to court, while we were holding our

innocent little baby, not knowing what was going to happen. The test was

gruesome, they stuck this uge needle into our poor little boys' neck to draw

blood, but after four attempt, could not get any because of his weight. Then

we had to take him to the Red cross childrens' hospital in Cape Town, to

have an specialist do the test, so all over again. After 5 more attempts

they finally got their 5ml. of blood, by this time was hysterical!

Then came a horrible 3 day wait, after which we were informed by the court

that since this was a incest case,categrized under special needs,the one

area that we did not apply under, we would have to give back to

child welfare. We initially did not want to adopt a child with severe

medical problems, because financially we were not equipped, and we felt that

if anything had to happen to the baby, our 3 year old would not be able to

cope emotionally, but after having in our home for 3 months, caring

for him, and loving him as our own, we did not care, we loved him, he was

our son, and our oldest was already calling him brother, we could not lose

him. Unfortunately, " child welfare " thought otherwise, and came to fetch him

on the Friday, giving us 2 days to come to terms with the fact that we were

ABOUT TO lose our dearest boy, and to explain to our 3 year old son, that he

was about to lose his brother, you tell me how you explain that to a 3 year

old. is now staying in a government institution for abandoned

children, will most likely never be put up for adoption again, because of

his medical status, and we still have an empty cot at home ready to be

filled, but according to the state, we are not financially capable of caring

for him, so he is " better off " without a mother and father who already loves

him. SICK WORLD! It was his first birthday on the 11th. of August, and he

spent it alone. Now we have one cot, two lost babies, one child that still

cries almost every day for his brother, not understanding that it was not

his parents who gave his brother away, and asking me every day if he got

sick, if I was going to give him away too....

I loved , I think at that stage I was still grieving too much for my

lost baby to realise how much I loved him, but he was ours, he was a part of

our family, my parents loved him as their own granchild, and my son did not

even realise that he came from somewhere else or that he was a different

colour to us, he was his brother, and he loved him. The only reference he

ever made was one day he asked me why had black hair and we all have

blonde.

Now maby I am unbelieveably stupid, but how can it be better for him to be

in an institution? HOw can they hold a 1 year old baby responsible for the

actions of a sick old man that didn't get the meaning of parental love?

We could have our own, we could have our own colour, but we chose not to,

once again we were wrong to think that the world works on common sense. So I

think that if the state made it possible, and easier for people to adopt,

then maby more people would. I don't intend on putting anyone off adoption,

I definately have not been put off myself, just be carefull, and get all the

facts before.A friend of mine adopted a baby this year, and they have been

very happy, the baby is thriving, and they feel truly blessed. She is

expecting her third biological child in December. If this is a course any of

you are thinking of taking, bless you, you are doing are wonderfull thing. I

always felt that having your own biological children is nature's way,

adopting is God's way.

I am sorry for going on like this, I guess it was just time for it all to

come out. Thanks for listening

take care

Sonja Kershaw

>From: KCHERUB@...

>Reply-To: ectopicpregnancyegroups

>To: ectopicpregnancyegroups

>Subject:

>Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 15:50:11 EDT

>

>,

>

>Hey! I hope that your family will be safe. I did hear this morning that

>the

>storm skirted around Florida...

>

>Isn't it funny that the people who usually make such insensitive comments

>have never had a pregnancy loss. Many times, they don't even have kids!

>Ugh. The adoption thing gets me every time. Adoption is a great way to

>take

>a child into your home. A very unselfish act. However, it seems to be

>quite

>easy for people who have never adopted (and never will) to say this to us.

>Why don't people who can have children biologically easy choose to adopt

>instead? That would help to give more children who need a home, a home.

>So,

>we who have problems getting and staying pregnant are supposed to take up

>their slack. Really a stupid comment, if they were to sit back and think

>on

>it a bit.

>

>As for the " God " comment. This one hits a REALLY sore nerve with me right

>now. So it is probably better that I don't discuss it. Let's just say

>that

>I DO NOT believe anything close to this...

>

>That comment about " a want in your heart " ...I do believe that. Totally and

>without doubt.

>

>Take care,

>

>Krista

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>MyPoints-Free Rewards When You're Online.

>Start with up to 150 Points for joining!

>http://clickhere./click/805

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/ectopicpregnancy

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I know how you feel! We are not in the TTC mode right now either. Wish I

was, but... that's another story. I am sorry to hear of everything that is

going on right now. Please know that I will be saying an extra prayer for

you today!!

Take Care,

[Guest guest]

, I'm so sorry things are so rough for you right now. Is there any way

you can appeal to the owner's sense of compassion (if he has any) to just

give you an extension? Even a month would help give you a little breathing

room.

In the meantime, just try to take it one day at a time. You'll get through

this!

Take care,

[Guest guest]

Thank you .

Hugs,

.

>From: KDJOHIO@...

>Reply-To: ectopicpregnancyegroups

>To: ectopicpregnancyegroups

>Subject: Re:

>Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 13:20:25 EDT

>MIME-Version: 1.0

>From ectopicpregnancy-return-560-rebel76 Fri Oct 15 10:36:55 1999

>Received: from [207.138.41.146] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id

>MHotMailB9D0AF5301D8D820F3D7CF8A2992208730; Fri Oct 15 10:35:46 1999

>X-eGroups-Return:

>ectopicpregnancy-return-560-rebel76=hotmail.comreturns (DOT)

>Received: from [10.1.2.1] by ml. with NNFMP; 15 Oct 1999

>18:20:38 -0000

>Mailing-List: contact ectopicpregnancy-owneregroups

>X-Mailing-List: ectopicpregnancyegroups

>X-URL: /list/ectopicpregnancy/

>Received: (listserv 1.262); by m5; 15 Oct 1999 17:20:38 -0000

>Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-ectopicpregnancyegroups

>Received: (qmail 102 invoked from network); 15 Oct 1999 17:20:35 -0000

>Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (198.81.17.69) by qh. with SMTP;

>15 Oct 1999 17:20:35 -0000

>Received: from KDJOHIO@... by imo25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id

>aHUUa08114 (4537) for <ectopicpregnancyegroups>; Fri, 15 Oct 1999

>13:20:25 -0400 (EDT)

>Message-ID:

>X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 41

>

>Dear ,

>

>I know how you feel! We are not in the TTC mode right now either. Wish I

>was, but... that's another story. I am sorry to hear of everything that is

>going on right now. Please know that I will be saying an extra prayer for

>you today!!

>

>Take Care,

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Get the most popular downloads on the Web. They¹re new!

>They¹re hot! They’re FREE! Utilities, drivers, games.

>It’s all here. http://clickhere./click/1158

>

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/ectopicpregnancy

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Three Cheers for Phae (and DH...he had something to do with it too!)

Good news is always great to hear!

J.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/22/99 1:23:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, KCHERUB@...

writes:

<< Also, I have another friend Phae (online) who had an ectopic and is now 12

weeks pregnant (IU)! >>

Hooray for Phae! Tell her congrats from all of us.

[Guest guest]

Tara

Phae is Krista's friends' name.

sonja

>

>Reply-To: ectopicpregnancyegroups

>To: " 'ectopicpregnancyegroups' " <ectopicpregnancyegroups>

>Subject: Re:

>Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 13:31:21 -0400

>

>Ok Ok I'm out of it. What does Phae mean?

>

>Tara

>

> Re:

>

>Three Cheers for Phae (and DH...he had something to do with it too!)

>

>Good news is always great to hear!

>

> J.

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/ectopicpregnancy

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>eGroups.com home: /group/ectopicpregnancy

> - Simplifying group communications

>

>

>

>

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi ladies,

I was wondering, did any of your DR's ever recommend artifical insemination?

Does anyone know if it cuts the % of having an EP?

Stacey,

I am seeing an RE/fertility specialist on Nov.17th and I cant wait. I am so

eagar to hear what they have to tell me. Let me know what happens to you on

the 7th

[Guest guest]

,

Are you the only in this group? I have gotten a little fuzzy on the

members and not sure who all is on the list. Do you think you could fill me

in? And could I possibly get the reminders mail. I can't remember when you

send it out. Sorry for not knowing what is going on.

Angel

[Guest guest]

Angel:

To my knowledge I am the only on the list. I send out the events

requests on Friday and then send out a list of all the events for the week

on Monday. There are no events for this week. That message should have

gone out this morning, but if you did not get it you did not miss anything

Look for the next request on Friday. If you have something going on

this week and you did not get it sent to me, you can send it anytime and I

will get it on the calendar for you.

If you have any more questions, just ask

[Guest guest]

HI all,

It is nice to know that everyone is thinikng about me. Youa re all such good

friends. Sorry I didn't post earlier had to work tonight so we tried

to spend some quality time together this morning and afternoon.

Well, still no AF. But, I did an hpt this morning and it was negative. So,

as usual I am clueless as to what to do now. I am scared because for the

past few days I have had some twinges of pain on my right side (the remaining

tube side) I can't really describe the pain, it isn't a cramp, it isn't a

sharp pain it feels like pins & needles, does that make sense? Last night,

it got really uncomfortable and of course I panicked,called at work

hystrerical and by the time his idiot employee put him on the phone the pain

was gone. So, that has me a little curoious. It isn't pain though like when

I had my ep - that was excrutiating pain (that I ignored for about 10 days)

this is weird...I can't describe it.

So, I am waiting for AF to arrive b/c of the negative result. So, I'll give

her a few more days and then test again. But, I am sure she'll arrive (he

pessimist in me). I have a baby shower tomorrow that I was looking forward

to, now I am not so sure. I went to Babies R Us last night (when I still

thought I may be pregnant) and had a ball shopping for my friend - and

visually picking out things for me!

Anyway,

thats all from here. Thank you all for caring.

[Guest guest]

,

If I see AF heading your way, I'm gonna kidnap her and keep her in my

neighbor's closet for a while. She doesn't need to be visiting anyone here

anymore!

L

[Guest guest]

Stacey:

To my knowledge, she has not posted anything to the group. I am waiting to

hear what's up too!

[Guest guest]

L:

Good thinking - throw the old hag in your NEIGHBOR'S closet. Don't even

keep her at your own house!

[Guest guest]

Hi...

Hang in there...it might have simply been too early to test. Also, try

not to worry about those twinges. I had those too when I was pregnant

with my daughter (after my ep) and I thought I was coming complelety

unglued with each twang. I even was keeping track of how many I had,

which side, etc etc. My dr said they were normal, but I can't recall

what she said they were.

I'll be thinking of you. I know how hard it can be to smile and act

like life is rosey at a shower like that. It can even be worse if you

feel like everyone's " watching " you to see how you react. I remember I

felt like that on Mother's Day after my ep. I felt like everyone at

church was looking at me to see how I was holding up.

Sharyn

fjdarc-@... wrote:

original article:/group/ectopicpregnancy/?start=3

167

> HI all,

>

> It is nice to know that everyone is thinikng about me. Youa re all

such good

> friends. Sorry I didn't post earlier had to work tonight so

we tried

> to spend some quality time together this morning and afternoon.

>

> Well, still no AF. But, I did an hpt this morning and it was

negative. So,

> as usual I am clueless as to what to do now. I am scared because for

the

> past few days I have had some twinges of pain on my right side (the

remaining

> tube side) I can't really describe the pain, it isn't a cramp, it

isn't a

> sharp pain it feels like pins & needles, does that make sense? Last

night,

> it got really uncomfortable and of course I panicked,called at

work

> hystrerical and by the time his idiot employee put him on the phone

the pain

> was gone. So, that has me a little curoious. It isn't pain though

like when

> I had my ep - that was excrutiating pain (that I ignored for about 10

days)

> this is weird...I can't describe it.

>

> So, I am waiting for AF to arrive b/c of the negative result. So,

I'll give

> her a few more days and then test again. But, I am sure she'll

arrive (he

> pessimist in me). I have a baby shower tomorrow that I was looking

forward

> to, now I am not so sure. I went to Babies R Us last night (when I

still

> thought I may be pregnant) and had a ball shopping for my friend -

and

> visually picking out things for me!

>

> Anyway,

>

> thats all from here. Thank you all for caring.

>

>

[Guest guest]

L:

Your lamp sounds awesome! I have many hobbies, but stained glass is one I

have always wanted to do but have never had the chance to try. You are

right when you say they are a blessing at times.

You sound so much like me as far as your " routine " at AF time. I always

looked for spotting, cramping, and constipation (sorry, but that *was* one

of my signs) to signal AF. My " girls " (yes I call them that too) were

usually sore to some degree, so that was never a very reliable sign for me.

I'm thinking of you. Keep us posted.

[Guest guest]

By the way, I just wanted to let you all know that I'll be away for a few

weeks - so I won't be able to email or find out what is going on with you

guys. I hope that the " urgent " issues are resolved for some of you, and

quickly. I'll email when I get back sometime in the 2nd week of April.

take care of yourselves.

Debbie

[Guest guest]

Poly,

Do you have a date as to when your surgery is?

[Guest guest]

Debbie,

At the moment, I am still waiting for the hospital to give the ok for me to go.

It is 95% certain that I will be going but I need an official letter for this

first.

Poly

Re:

Poly,

Do you have a date as to when your surgery is?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

-Hi Poly

Yes I was on Provera and now on Premarin. The hospital put me on

Provera for one month before they diagnosed me with Ahermans.

Yes I am gonna ask my doctor about referring me to Dr Magos when I

see her in just over two weeks time.

Thank you for the article about Viagra.

Love -- In Ashermansegroups, " Poly Spyrou " <kyrpoly@l...>

wrote:

> ,

> I just would like to clear something. You say you are on Premarin

now and before that you were on Provera??? Is that right everybody or

should it be the other way round?

>

> Regarding Viagra, have a look at this site:

http://www.medscape.com/reuters/prof/2000/03/03.31/cl03310c.html

>

> I guess the surgery that will be available to you will be pretty

much like the rest of us. Some with the balloon, others just hormones

and others none of these. As with Interceed, it seems that only Dr

Berger is using this at the moment as far as we know. I am hoping

that Dr Magos (Royal Free Hospital, UK) and Dr Berger will contact

each other to discuss this possible method. Who knows, we may be

helping doctors find a better cure for us. Remember they don't know

that much about this syndrome because there seems to be so few of us,

but if we help them in return they will help us!!

>

> Why don't you suggest to your doctor to contact Dr Magos with

regards to further surgery. Can't they send you there?

>

> Poly

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Celeste,

I don't have a continuous endometrium. I am like where she has islands of endometrium and some at the top. Is yours continuous? I will look into gonatrophins if the oestrogen alone does not help. What are they supposed to do anyway?

About the abortion website, maybe I went off the top there. I guess sometimes I just get so annoyed at the fact that others can simply get pregnant and decide to "kill" their own flesh and blood and here we are struggling so much and finding so many difficulties on our way. I guess we can include the writing of that particular website but not the picture, just so as not to offend anyone.

Love Poly

Re: Fw: É'm back

Poly,I was antibiotics & premarin the entire time that I had the balloon. The open cavity is positive news. If you do have some endometrium (even though it is thin) drugs may be able to thicken it. That is my problem too. I have an open cavity and I am producing estrogen on my own but it doesn't seem to thicken the lining like it would if my lining were never scarred and then corrected (3 times!)As I mentioned, Dr. Berger thinks gonatrophins may do the trick. Just a thought for future reference. I never was given progesterone either but I had so much estrogen in my system from the previous attempts at treatment that Dr. Berger wanted my body to "clean out" on its own and wait for a period to come on its own which it did 6 weeks after the surgery.Best of luck. Glad you are back home.Celeste

[Guest guest]

Hello Poly

Just wanted to know if you got an answer from Dr Magos and if you are stil bleeding.

l--Original Message-----To: Ashermans <Ashermansegroups>Date: 11 July 2000 22:41Subject:

,

I am so sorry you are having problems with getting viagra. Your poem was sweet and very true. Hang in there and you will win!

Also, can you also please give me the following details. As I have said before, I probably know all this detail but it is quicker to have a response from you than me searching. I'm nearly done so not long to go yet.

Can you confirm that you have only had one diagnostic hysteroscopy so far, therefore no balloon or anything was used?

You had post partum D & C, did you also have retained placenta?

Where were your adhesions and scar tissue? Both cervix and uterus?

Were you told if your cavity is open and also did you say your endometrium is islets here and there?

Has your doctor told you he will not do operative hysteroscopy?

Thanks

Poly

[Guest guest]

,

I have not had a reply from Dr Magos yet. I am wondering if he is out of office because it is very unusual for him not to reply by now. Can I ask you a BIG favour. Can you call Royal Free Hospital and find out if he is on leave?

My bleeding is coming to an end. Today is the third day and my periods were just like that before ashermans.!! I am really anxious to find out if it was a period after all.

Love

Poly