Re: New to list

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 09/04/1999 6:22:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

gprogers@... writes:

<< When Petya goes to science and social studies the

terp goes with her but Petya has asked her not to sign. >>

Barb,

You wont be able to keep that interpreter very long if your daughter is

having the interpreter not sign. We're too expensive and too much in demand

to only use on rare occassion when her hearing is " down " You might be

better off letting the terp do her job and Petrya only looking when

necessary. I know as a terp if my student told me not to sign, I would be

placed in another placement until needed with your daughter. My skills came

through alot of hard work and over a long time and I would not just sit there

and look at the walls. Of course, in my district and in most I have heard of

the coordinators would not let us sit there. We would be moved and it would

be a struggle to get us back. Just to let you know as a " heads up "

Terry

[Guest guest]

>wealth of information. I am a stay at home mother of three boys 12, 3 1/2

>and 9mo. Our 3 yr. old has a sensorineural bilateral loss dx was in May.

>The audio said it is a flat loss. Moderate. I need some help here. On his

>audiogram from 250 tru 6000 his dB is all between 60 and 80. Can someone

tell

>me in real human language what it is.

> We were told by service providers that Oral - Auditory was our best and

>basically only education option. I have been reading a lot and do not

really

>agree at this point in the totality of " only option. " We are being told

" He

>will be fine, don't worry, just give it time. " He has lost so much time

>already. (More input needed here also please) He received his aids in July.

>He has not stopped with the " jargon " since. He gets real mad when he

cannot

>get his point across etc. His little tears flow and I want to just die.

>They did a speech eval and put him at 18 to 24 mo delay.

> Our other boys are hearing. I had always known something was wrong. The

>DR's did not agree. He saw two different military DR's. I was told " he'll

>come around, you are overprotective, kids do these things, etc. " This past

>March I got real mad and took him to a civilian Dr. He sent us to ENT right

>away. Now I would spit on the others if I ever see them again.

> Maybe it all has something to do with where we live. We are stuck here in

>the South till next year I would give my teeth to be back in the Northeast.

>I have called these schools for services. They don't know their left hand

>from the right. I will not put him in that fiasco.

> I would greatly appreciate any input on my questions. If anyone wants to

>email directly please do. Bodintino@...

> I wish you all a great holiday weekend. Thanks for listening or auh...

>reading.

Jo,

My daughter's loss is similar. It is a little better most of the time than

your son's, usually between 50 and 60, but will also fluctuate up to between

80 and 90. My daughter is auditory-oral but also is learning sign language

and has in interpreter at school.

We still have the tears at times when she can't get her point across but

they are rare now. Petya has made lots of progress in language and now even

strangers can understand most of what she says. I am convinced that sign

language saved the sanity of both of us. She understood the concept of

language but could not make herself understood verbally. Sign language

really opened a door for us.

This year Petya has the option of telling her interpreter if she wants the

terp to accompany her to mainstream class or not. So far Petya has rejected

the terp in music and PE. When Petya goes to science and social studies the

terp goes with her but Petya has asked her not to sign. Petya still needs

to get clarification from the terp on some points but I now can see her

eventually reaching the point where she will be able to get along without

the terp in most situations. ( I think she may always need it in large

group, assembly type settings.) On days when her hearing is very low or

when she can't wear her hearing aids she needs the terp.

There was a discussion here recently about all the different communication

modes and what people are doing so I don't want to go into a lot of detail.

The bottom line is that different modes work for different families and

different children. I see nothing wrong with a total communication approach

and if you are being told that Oral-auditory is the only approach then they

have not considered a continuum of options. I gather from your post you are

not being told this by the school.

My opinion is that you need to decide what your approach is going to be.

Find your doctors and therapists that will support your approach and then

you go to the school for services. Some doctors are not willing to support

you and you have to push. There have been doctors who I have told, " look

you need to stop thinking this child is on an assembly line and this is what

we need and we need your help. " This startled a couple of doctors who said

you are right, what can I do? A couple took offense and one even asked me

when I went to medical school. You don't go back to those doctors. You may

not have this option if you are in the military.

Your only obligation is to do what is best for your child and your family.

You are working on doing just that. The rest of us will help you however we

can.

Barb

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/4/99 1:03:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

listenup@... writes:

<< He saw two different military DR's. I was told " he'll

> come around, you are overprotective, kids do these things, etc. " >>

We were a Navy family (ten years active with submarines and ten years

reserves) and one thing that I learned was that most of the good military

doctors leave as soon as they have repaid their time. I had a Navy doctor,

who never saw me before in his life, take my thyroid medicine and throw it in

the waste basket. I gained 50 lbs. in three months and, even though I was

put back on the medicine, it was 50 lbs. I was never able to lose because I

had not eaten it on. After that I would only see a corpsman for things like

stitches, etc. and a private doctor for the rest. I do not know what the

insurance setup is now but we had Champus at that time for outside doctors.

I wish I had information to share with you but we are out of the cycle

until reserve retirement comes due. I wish you the best. I know it can be

very frustrating but this is a good place to be. Listen to Kay. She is

military also and she is someone who's advice you can trust.

Good luck,

Eleanor

[Guest guest]

> I need some help here. On his

> audiogram from 250 tru 6000 his dB is all between 60 and 80. Can someone

tell

> me in real human language what it is.

The best place for finding this out is being reorganized, so you can read

the text, but the pictures aren't there:

http://www.audiology.org/consumer/understandaudio/uya.htm

The next best thing is How To Read Your Hearing Test:

http://www.earinfo.com/howread1.html

Here is an audiogram chart that I always find very helpful:

http://www.gohear.org/tech/audio.html

One reason I like this one for new parents to use is because it has pcitures

of different environmental sounds on it as points of reference. I may not be

sure how loud 55dB is at 125hz, but this chart tells me that's how loud an

" in the window " air conditioner is " , and now I understand. ;-)

(Actually I do know how loud it is, from years of experience, but you get my

point).

> We were told by service providers that Oral - Auditory was our best and

> basically only education option. I have been reading a lot and do not

really

> agree at this point in the totality of " only option. "

I don't like it when providers try to choose our options for us. You've got

a whole list of options available to you. One of the reasons I'm so against

others making these choices for us is because they don't have to live with

their decision, you do. Fully investigate your options. There is a complete

list of options on my web site:

http://members.tripod.com/listenup/basics.htm

And I'll pass along the words of another parent who allowed me to add them

to my basics page:

" These educational decisions you are thinking about take a long time to

" gel " ..... lots to consider on your part. Use your resourcefulness to find

what you have available within a reasonable driving distance and visit them

all. Talk with the directors, meet with parents, see if there are support

groups, meet kids in the program (younger and older). During this process

you'll get in touch with your own internal resources too..... abilities,

time, emotional support, finances, etc. I believe that you have to take

this journey personally no matter what other people's experiences are. Only

you know what's right for your family and what's available to support you. "

> We are being told " He

> will be fine, don't worry, just give it time. " He has lost so much time

> already.

Actually I think these 2 statments could be combined. IF you jump on the gun

and start getting language into him (by any communication method), and

getting his needs taken care of, he will be fine. And you're right, our kids

have already lost a lot of time and don't have the luxury of time to wait

for things to start happening. But the reality is that you'll often have to

wait. It's something that's very frustrating for me personally, and for many

other parents. As others have said, you'll just have to do the best you can

with the cards you're delt, but that doesn't mean you can't try to talk the

dealer into slipping you another card or two. ;-)

> He has not stopped with the " jargon " since. He gets real mad when he

cannot

> get his point across etc. His little tears flow and I want to just die.

It's good that he's using jargon, this is a normal developmental step for

kids. I'm lucky in that these first early years with my son seemed to have

some sort of inner ability to communicate and his frustrations weren't quiet

as bad. When possible, try to learn his " jargon words " (for our son, one of

his was " pee-pee " for " cookie " . Imagine the confusion that one would often

cause with strangers.) In the early stages, there's nothing wrong with

making up some communication posters with pictures of things he's most

likely going to want to get across; pictures of his favorite foods in the

kitchen, favorite toys and daily activities in the bedroom. This way he can

point to get his idea across, and you can feed the language for that idea

back to him, in any of the communication methods you choose. The key to

making him not dependent on this is to increase your expectations. When you

know he understands the system, then you start expecting some response back

when you give him the language. At first it may only be a nod of

understanding, but whatever it is, when he's doing that regularly, you up

the ante and expect some attempt at responding in the mode you demonstrated

(some utterance if you voiced, some hand movement if you signed). As they

master this, then require closer and closer approximations.

> I had always known something was wrong. The

> DR's did not agree. He saw two different military DR's. I was told " he'll

> come around, you are overprotective, kids do these things, etc. "

Egad! It's deja vue all over again!!! Where are you stationed (and if you

tell me Keesler, I'll personally go kick some butt!) I'm assuming you're

still in the military? If you need any help or suggestions on getting

through the military system, let us know. There's a couple of us military

families here in the group.

> We are stuck here in

> the South till next year I would give my teeth to be back in the

Northeast.

> I have called these schools for services.

Ok girl, spill the beans. Where are you at? If you prefer to answer this one

privately to me, it's OK.

Kay

listenup@...

[Guest guest]

><< When Petya goes to science and social studies the

> terp goes with her but Petya has asked her not to sign. >>

>Barb,

>You wont be able to keep that interpreter very long if your daughter is

>having the interpreter not sign. We're too expensive and too much in

demand

>to only use on rare occassion when her hearing is " down " You might be

>better off letting the terp do her job and Petrya only looking when

>necessary. I know as a terp if my student told me not to sign, I would be

>placed in another placement until needed with your daughter. My skills

came

>through alot of hard work and over a long time and I would not just sit

there

>and look at the walls. Of course, in my district and in most I have heard

of

>the coordinators would not let us sit there. We would be moved and it

would

>be a struggle to get us back. Just to let you know as a " heads up "

>Terry

Terry,

I appreciate what you are saying. Petya is in a total communication class

and goes out only for specials and for science/social studies. (Less than

50% of her day.) This is part of the overall plan to help her get along

without the interpreter.

The terp is actually a signing aide that works in her classroom and also

goes out with whichever child is being mainstreamed at the time. There are

five kids in the hearing impaired class and all are coming and going all the

time. Petya needs the aide due to learning disabilities as well and it is

the aides job to see that she understands what was covered. Also it is the

aides job when the two of them come back to the HI classroom to review what

was said and she signs when she reviews.

Petya has difficulty learning new language and cannot grasp a word and " own "

it verbally without learning how to sign it first. Once she learns it with

the sign she drops the sign and then can use it without the sign. So the

aide is there to help with language acquisition and is technically not an

interpreter. Although the last two years the aide was signing everything.

I am sorry I was not more clear in my original post. Thank you for pointing

out what may be a problem for others.

Barb

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 09/04/1999 1:10:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

gprogers@... writes:

<< Petya has difficulty learning new language and cannot grasp a word and

" own "

it verbally without learning how to sign it first. Once she learns it with

the sign she drops the sign and then can use it without the sign. So the

aide is there to help with language acquisition and is technically not an

interpreter. Although the last two years the aide was signing everything.

I am sorry I was not more clear in my original post. Thank you for pointing

out what may be a problem for others.

Barb >>

I'm sorry Barb-thought the aide was an interpreter.

Terry

[Guest guest]

At 02:54 AM 9/4/99 -0400, BODINTINO@... wrote:

>From: BODINTINO@...

>

> Hello, I have been reading the posts for a few weeks now. You all have a

>wealth of information. I am a stay at home mother of three boys 12, 3 1/2

>and 9mo. Our 3 yr. old has a sensorineural bilateral loss dx was in May.

>The audio said it is a flat loss. Moderate. I need some help here. On his

>audiogram from 250 tru 6000 his dB is all between 60 and 80. Can someone tell

>me in real human language what it is.

>

It's a moderate to severe loss, something you are completely justified in

being very concerned with. These kids can often be borderline deaf. They

may be able to " get by " without hearing aids, but they won't get

everything. They may respond well to speech therapy, but may miss boatloads

of language.

>We were told by service providers that Oral - Auditory was our best and

>basically only education option. I have been reading a lot and do not really

>agree at this point in the totality of " only option. " We are being told " He

>will be fine, don't worry, just give it time. " He has lost so much time

>already. (More input needed here also please) He received his aids in July.

>He has not stopped with the " jargon " since. He gets real mad when he cannot

>get his point across etc. His little tears flow and I want to just die.

>They did a speech eval and put him at 18 to 24 mo delay.

This is significant, but you should realize that language delays in deaf

children are not uncommon except when they are deaf of deaf, so don't beat

yourself up about the numbers. Your son needs language asap, in any form,

so you need to work hard to get it into him. A-V is a fine methodology, but

it takes time for the benefits to really pay off. Research all of the

methodologies and choose one soon, and dive into it head first. You can

always change it later. Don't be afraid of this.

I have two deaf children, both prelingual profound, both raised first with

pidgin sign and transitioned into auditory-oral. Neither of them had a

problem with this transition.

Good luck,

Chris

<< Christofer deHahn..................Manager, EDA Systems and Test >>

<< Quantum Corporation...........Shrewsbury, Massachusetts, USA >>

[Guest guest]

> it verbally without learning how to sign it first. Once she learns it

with

> the sign she drops the sign and then can use it without the sign. So the

> aide is there to help with language acquisition and is technically not an

> interpreter. Although the last two years the aide was signing everything.

> I am sorry I was not more clear in my original post. Thank you for

pointing

> out what may be a problem for others.

>

> Barb >>

>I'm sorry Barb-thought the aide was an interpreter.

>Terry

Don't be sorry. I did call her an interpreter. Thanks for having me

clarify it. I may have caused confusion for other people on the list. And

you pointed out some valuable information for others thinking of weaning off

an interpreter.

Barb

[Guest guest]

Hi Jo,

My son is 4-1/2 years old now. He was diagnosed at two years of age.

His loss is around 60 db at the lowest frequencies, about 80-85 db at

500/1000/2000 Hz, and drops quickly after than to no response above 4000 Hz

in the left ear.

When he has been tested on the mainland (we live in a rural part of Hawaii,

but take him to Los Angeles annually for testing), the assumption by the

people there is that he will be auditory/oral successfully. The reality of

the situation where we live is that the only class for deaf/hoh kids is

Total Communication, where they simultaneously sign and speak. The signing

is Pidgin Sign English. As a result, he is in a TC program, which we might

not have chosen if we had more options.

I have to say that signing, in 's case, has helped him immensely in his

language acquisition. He learns a sign first, then learns the spoken word,

usually dropping the sign after that. His preferred mode of expressing

himself is orally (he talks a lot!), but signing improves his comprehension.

If we had relied on the oral approach alone, I do not think would be

doing as well as he is today. I am glad we were sort of " forced " into Total

Communication, because it has turned out to be a good method for him.

One thing to watch for--those who advocate the auditory/oral approach may

tell you that if you use sign language, your child won't talk. My son's

experience shows that this is not a reliable statement. Watch out for those

who talk in absolutes. Each child is different, and there are really no

absolutely wrong or right decisions.

Good luck!

Dixie

[Guest guest]

Hello Jo,

And welcome to the list. You have come to the right place for support and

information from the EXPERTS " the parents " !!!

I have a 12 month old son , who was dx at birth with a hearing loss, I

completely understand how confused you must be, but as alot of parents on

this list will tell you, There is no ONE best way, go by your heart, and by

your gut, and most of all follow your child's lead!!!And if you try one

option, don't worry it is not set in stone you can change as your families'

needs change.

Best wishes,

Debbie

's Mom (1 year HOH)

[Guest guest]

wrote:

I have two deaf children, both prelingual profound, both raised first with

pidgin sign and transitioned into auditory-oral. Neither of them had a

problem with this transition.

Good luck,

Chris

Hi

I have not heard of the term " pidgin sign " , can you explain it to me?

Thanks

Debbie

's Mom (1 year HOH)

[Guest guest]

Interesting, Chris. How do you sign " to " ? Here, the version of PSE used in

my son's class would be " I go store. " It's not complete in English, but to

his teacher it's complete in PSE.

Dixie

>

>I go to the store

>

>in PSE: I go to store

>

>I go store

>

>isn't complete.

>

>Chris

>

>>Terry

>>

>>---------------------------

[Guest guest]

Pidgin sign is PSE, or Pidgin Signed English. It is not a signed language,

rather it uses ASL and regional signs in English word order. It's like a

combination of SEE and ASL, but it is not a language. We used it as a way

to get vocabulary into them early and to establish communication.

Chris

At 03:37 PM 9/5/99 -0700, Debra Rabideau wrote:

>

>

>wrote:

>

>I have two deaf children, both prelingual profound, both raised first with

>pidgin sign and transitioned into auditory-oral. Neither of them had a

>problem with this transition.

>

>Good luck,

>

>Chris

>

>

>Hi

>I have not heard of the term " pidgin sign " , can you explain it to me?

>Thanks

>

>

>Debbie

>'s Mom (1 year HOH)

>

>---------------------------

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 09/06/1999 2:49:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

wog@... writes:

<< How did you go about learning this type of sign? every book I find here is

ASL or SEE.

~ and 's Mom >>

,

Just take the asl signs and sign them in an english word order. I go store

not store go me or SEE: I am going to the store-endings and all

Terry

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/6/99 7:33:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dehahn@...

writes:

<< I go to the store

in PSE: I go to store

I go store

isn't complete. >>

Hi! We use SSE probably the same it's just a new acronym. It's sign supported

english. We don't do the English endings instead we use the endings like

ASL. We were able to have it recognized as my daughter's first language. Just

a tidbit. I didn't realize but are you from Shrewsbury? We live in West

Boylston. Small world. Lori

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 09/06/1999 4:33:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

dehahn@... writes:

<< n PSE: I go to store

I go store

isn't complete.

>>

This is signed english not PSE and not Pidgin

Terry

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/6/99 8:56:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dehahn@...

writes:

<< I live in Belchertown and work at Quantum in Shrewsbury. We used to live

in

Millbury, and have lots of friends in the Worcester area. >>

Hi Chris! I first taught at Belchertown High and what a beautiful area! I

grew up in Worcester. Did you have your children when you were living in

Millbury? I found my town to be very difficult. We fought to send Audrey to

Worcester for the summer and what a difference. I am going to a conference in

Springfield put on by the e school called but don't quote me - Hearing

Impaired: Language and Literacy. Are you going? Or is anyone else who lives

around Massachusetts attending? I would love to hook up with anyone. I am so

excited because my daughter is three and I want to hear what they recommend

for reading and writing. If anyone is interested email me and I can tell you

more. The application and types of workshops being offered are upstairs and I

ma lazy right now. I am avoiding my work writing a syllabus for my classes

which start next week. bye Lori

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 09/06/1999 5:00:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

dehahn@... writes:

<< Pidgin is regional, and it is not a language, so variances are expected.

" To " is signed by touching both index fingers together.

>>

Pidgin is actually not regional. I've lived in many areas and the

grammar remains the same.

Terry

[Guest guest]

Terry~I think earlier had said that he was not going to debate this any

longer.

[Guest guest]

Chris

How did you go about learning this type of sign? every book I find here is

ASL or SEE.

~ and 's Mom

At 11:45 AM 9/6/99 -0400, you wrote:

>

>

>

>Pidgin sign is PSE, or Pidgin Signed English. It is not a signed language,

>rather it uses ASL and regional signs in English word order. It's like a

>combination of SEE and ASL, but it is not a language. We used it as a way

>to get vocabulary into them early and to establish communication.

>

>Chris

>

>At 03:37 PM 9/5/99 -0700, Debra Rabideau wrote:

>>

>>

>>wrote:

>>

>>I have two deaf children, both prelingual profound, both raised first with

>>pidgin sign and transitioned into auditory-oral. Neither of them had a

>>problem with this transition.

>>

>>Good luck,

>>

>>Chris

>>

>>

>>Hi

>>I have not heard of the term " pidgin sign " , can you explain it to me?

>>Thanks

>>

>>

>>Debbie

>>'s Mom (1 year HOH)

>>

>>---------------------------

[Guest guest]

At 05:51 PM 9/6/99 -0400, w.o.g. wrote:

>

>

>Chris

>How did you go about learning this type of sign? every book I find here is

>ASL or SEE.

>~ and 's Mom

Classes. It's hard to learn any kind of sign without human interaction.

Chris

>At 11:45 AM 9/6/99 -0400, you wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> >Pidgin sign is PSE, or Pidgin Signed English. It is not a signed language,

> >rather it uses ASL and regional signs in English word order. It's like a

> >combination of SEE and ASL, but it is not a language. We used it as a way

> >to get vocabulary into them early and to establish communication.

> >

> >Chris

> >

> >At 03:37 PM 9/5/99 -0700, Debra Rabideau wrote:

> >>

> >>

> >>wrote:

> >>

> >>I have two deaf children, both prelingual profound, both raised first with

> >>pidgin sign and transitioned into auditory-oral. Neither of them had a

> >>problem with this transition.

> >>

> >>Good luck,

> >>

> >>Chris

> >>

> >>

> >>Hi

> >>I have not heard of the term " pidgin sign " , can you explain it to me?

> >>Thanks

> >>

> >>

> >>Debbie

> >>'s Mom (1 year HOH)

> >>

> >>---------------------------

[Guest guest]

At 07:14 PM 9/6/99 -0400, Theathdi@... wrote:

>From: Theathdi@...

>

>In a message dated 09/06/1999 2:49:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

>wog@... writes:

>

><< How did you go about learning this type of sign? every book I find here is

> ASL or SEE.

> ~ and 's Mom >>

>,

>Just take the asl signs and sign them in an english word order. I go store

>not store go me or SEE: I am going to the store-endings and all

I go to the store

in PSE: I go to store

I go store

isn't complete.

Chris

>Terry

>

>---------------------------

[Guest guest]

At 01:53 PM 9/6/99 +0100, Dixie Kaetsu wrote:

>

>

>Interesting, Chris. How do you sign " to " ? Here, the version of PSE used in

>my son's class would be " I go store. " It's not complete in English, but to

>his teacher it's complete in PSE.

Pidgin is regional, and it is not a language, so variances are expected.

" To " is signed by touching both index fingers together.

Chris

>Dixie

>

> >

> >I go to the store

> >

> >in PSE: I go to store

> >

> >I go store

> >

> >isn't complete.

> >

> >Chris

> >

> >>Terry

> >>

> >>---------------------------

[Guest guest]

At 08:15 PM 9/6/99 -0400, LCorc16@... wrote:

>From: LCorc16@...

>

>In a message dated 9/6/99 7:33:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dehahn@...

>writes:

>

><< I go to the store

>

> in PSE: I go to store

>

> I go store

>

> isn't complete. >>

>Hi! We use SSE probably the same it's just a new acronym. It's sign supported

>english. We don't do the English endings instead we use the endings like

>ASL. We were able to have it recognized as my daughter's first language. Just

>a tidbit. I didn't realize but are you from Shrewsbury? We live in West

>Boylston. Small world. Lori

I live in Belchertown and work at Quantum in Shrewsbury. We used to live in

Millbury, and have lots of friends in the Worcester area.

Chris

<< Christofer deHahn..................Manager, EDA Systems and Test >>

<< Quantum Corporation...........Shrewsbury, Massachusetts, USA >>

[Guest guest]

At 08:57 PM 9/6/99 -0400, Theathdi@... wrote:

>From: Theathdi@...

>

>In a message dated 09/06/1999 4:33:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

>dehahn@... writes:

>

><< n PSE: I go to store

>

> I go store

>

> isn't complete.

>

> >>

>

>This is signed english not PSE and not Pidgin

I'm sorry, Terry, but this is PSE as I learned it. If anyone else would

like to debate the symantics of sign language, feel free, but I'm not going

to perpetuate this never-ending debate in this thread any longer.

Chris

<< Christofer deHahn..................Manager, EDA Systems and Test >>

<< Quantum Corporation...........Shrewsbury, Massachusetts, USA >>