Re: Autism Boards

[Guest guest]

I have to agree on that one. People have no right to be

judgemental, and I bet it's a pain to explain yourself over and

over, but trying to help people get a better understanding on autism

(or any other diagnosis) is a better solution than trying to cure it.

Ruby

> > > >

> > > > curing autism people want there children and

> > > familys

> > > > to be normal not get rid of them. my life would

> > > have

> > > > been better if i did not have autism i would have

> > > > friends,a job,home, a family , and not on ssi/ssa

> > > >

> > >

> > Messages<

> >

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse/messages;_ylc

=X3oDMTJlNWEyMXRrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAw

MDYyMjE1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21zZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTE1NjAyMTM4MA--

> > >|

> > > >

> > >

> > Files<

> >

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse/files;_ylc=X3

oDMTJmZGZlb3NrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDY

yMjE1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2ZpbGVzBHN0aW1lAzExNTYwMjEzODA-

> > >|

> > > >

> > >

> > Photos<

> >

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse/photos;_ylc=X

3oDMTJlYWI0bW45BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMD

YyMjE1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Bob3QEc3RpbWUDMTE1NjAyMTM4MA--

> > >|

> > > >

> > >

> > Links<

> >

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse/links;_ylc=X3

oDMTJmc3U1YjE5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDY

yMjE1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2xpbmtzBHN0aW1lAzExNTYwMjEzODA-

> > >|

> > > >

> > >

> > Database<

> >

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse/database;_ylc

=X3oDMTJjcXMwOHB2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAw

MDYyMjE1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2RiBHN0aW1lAzExNTYwMjEzODA-

> > >|

> > > >

> > >

> > Polls<

> >

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse/polls;_ylc=X3

oDMTJmNWxlYTlrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDY

yMjE1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3BvbGxzBHN0aW1lAzExNTYwMjEzODA-

> > >|

> > > >

> > >

> > Members<

> >

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse/members;_ylc=

X3oDMTJlazRtaG43BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwM

DYyMjE1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21icnMEc3RpbWUDMTE1NjAyMTM4MA--

> > >|

> > > >

> > >

> > Calendar<

> >

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse/calendar;_ylc

=X3oDMTJkMTN1MDJiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAw

MDYyMjE1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2NhbARzdGltZQMxMTU2MDIxMzgw

> > >

> > > > [image: Yahoo!

> > >

> > Groups]<

> >

http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkM242b3VyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycEl

kAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDYyMjE1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMx

MTU2MDIxMzgw

> > >

> >

> > > > You are receiving Individual Emails Change

> > > Delivery Settings

> > > >

> > >

> > <

> >

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse/join;_ylc=X3o

DMTJmc25mMW1qBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDYy

MjE1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3N0bmdzBHN0aW1lAzExNTYwMjEzODA-

> > >

> > > > Visit Your Group

> > > >

> > >

> > <

> >

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse;_ylc=X3oDMTJk

M3JtNHE1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDYyMjE1B

HNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2hwZgRzdGltZQMxMTU2MDIxMzgw

> > >|

> >

> > > > Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use

> > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>| Unsubscribe

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > <AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse-

unsubscribe <AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse-unsubscribe%

40yahoogroups.com>

> > ?subject=Unsubscribe>

> > > > Recent Activity

> > > >

> > > > - 2

> > > > New

> > >

> > Members<

> >

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse/members;_ylc=

X3oDMTJmY3A2dmxuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwM

DYyMjE1BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzExNTYwMjEzODA-

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Visit Your Group

> > > >

> > >

> > <

> >

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse;_ylc=X3oDMTJl

ZjAwcmgzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDYyMjE1B

HNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTE1NjAyMTM4MA--

> > >

> >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Stan wrote:

>AFAIK, nobody is talking about genocide of autistics, so the

>form of genocide is not relevant here. The closest one can come

>is the possible ability to perform tests and abortion; however

>there are no indications that this is being done. For one

>thing, despite press reports, there is no marker gene for

>autism.

A while ago (a month?) there was an article in a UK paper (or BBC

online?) about doctors who wanted to let parents " at risk " for having

an autitic child (due to family history) selectively abort all male

fetuses, because " most autistics are male. "

Jane

[Guest guest]

> Stan wrote:

> >is the possible ability to perform tests and abortion; however

> >there are no indications that this is being done. For one

> >thing, despite press reports, there is no marker gene for

> >autism.

>

> A while ago (a month?) there was an article in a UK paper (or BBC

> online?) about doctors who wanted to let parents " at risk " for having

> an autitic child (due to family history) selectively abort all male

> fetuses, because " most autistics are male. "

1. That shows the quality of available tests. " Well, there's

sex selection. That might work. "

2. Actually, sex selection doesn't work for autism. Or actually

it does work, but you'd have to select both sexes (plus

intersexed people).

3. It won't happen in the Western world.

[Guest guest]

just one thing most researchers think it's not a

genetic disorder like rett's but maybe a more

environmental causes and not genetic some think it's

like adhd but you can find adhd on genetic testing so

the search goes on i have found out i have a rare

genetic disorder called 's syndrome 47,xyy and it

causes developmental disorders like autism i am having

research done on me on Sept.6 at uc ,m.i.n.d

center for autism.so thy can use my research to find

the cause and treat children with this rare disorder.i

had genetic testing to rule out fragile x and

klinefelters and it came back with 's so now we

are on the right path Finlay it took 36 years to know

what has caused all my disorders.thy are finding a lot

of children with xxy,xxx,xyy have autism spectrum

disorders have a nice night tom-g...

--- Stan's Computer wrote:

>

>

> > Stan wrote:

> > >is the possible ability to perform tests and

> abortion; however

> > >there are no indications that this is being done.

> For one

> > >thing, despite press reports, there is no marker

> gene for

> > >autism.

> >

> > A while ago (a month?) there was an article in a

> UK paper (or BBC

> > online?) about doctors who wanted to let parents

> " at risk " for having

> > an autitic child (due to family history)

> selectively abort all male

> > fetuses, because " most autistics are male. "

>

> 1. That shows the quality of available tests.

> " Well, there's

> sex selection. That might work. "

>

> 2. Actually, sex selection doesn't work for autism.

> Or actually

> it does work, but you'd have to select both sexes

> (plus

> intersexed people).

>

> 3. It won't happen in the Western world.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I defy anyone to convince me that he has the right to decide

for another human being, whether to be alive. I would bet you that

nearly all people alive would still choose to be alive if we could

reverse time to before their birth and show them the future.

Jerry Newport

>

> > .I usually stay quiet, but I really have to say

> > this. I think the danger lay

> > in this...

> >

> > Doesn't the real scary thing be that if people have

> > the choice

> > to say, ''Oh I took that test and found out I am

> > carrying a baby who will

> > grow to term

> > and be autistic? Horrid! Then I will abort the baby.

> > Its my choice.''

> >

> > Isn't it better then, to choose life, WITH the

> > struggles, Tom, to choose

> > acceptance for

> > oneself, to --- dare I say ---be happy with being

> > autistic, despite the

> > challenges, even

> > though it presents a series of hurdles for those

> > affected?

> >

> > Because the alternative, the so-called cure, (see

> > paragraph 2,) is alarming.

> >

> > K

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

> jerry your not god and i am not god but if a child

is going to suffer it's hole life then no.it's like an

animal if hit by a car and it is suffering you take it

to the doctors and then thy choose if it lives or dies

have life is fine liveing life is a big thing

suffering your hole life is that rilly fair on them

..do you have a child with a disorder or are you the

one that does because the are adults that have no

under standing of life what it must be like living in

a mental or developmental institution from birth tell

the day you die 50-90 years thats not

LIVING " " " " " " ....................................................................\

.............................................................................

> I defy anyone to convince me that he has the

> right to decide

> for another human being, whether to be alive. I

> would bet you that

> nearly all people alive would still choose to be

> alive if we could

> reverse time to before their birth and show them the

> future.

>

> Jerry Newport

>

>

>

>

> >

> > > .I usually stay quiet, but I really have to say

> > > this. I think the danger lay

> > > in this...

> > >

> > > Doesn't the real scary thing be that if people

> have

> > > the choice

> > > to say, ''Oh I took that test and found out I am

> > > carrying a baby who will

> > > grow to term

> > > and be autistic? Horrid! Then I will abort the

> baby.

> > > Its my choice.''

> > >

> > > Isn't it better then, to choose life, WITH the

> > > struggles, Tom, to choose

> > > acceptance for

> > > oneself, to --- dare I say ---be happy with

> being

> > > autistic, despite the

> > > challenges, even

> > > though it presents a series of hurdles for those

> > > affected?

> > >

> > > Because the alternative, the so-called cure,

> (see

> > > paragraph 2,) is alarming.

> > >

> > > K

> > >

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > removed]

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The notion that doctors choosing who lives or dies just sent a shiver down

my spine

eek

Joe

>

> > jerry your not god and i am not god but if a child

> is going to suffer it's hole life then no.it's like an

> animal if hit by a car and it is suffering you take it

> to the doctors and then thy choose if it lives or dies

> have life is fine liveing life is a big thing

> suffering your hole life is that rilly fair on them

> .do you have a child with a disorder or are you the

> one that does because the are adults that have no

> under standing of life what it must be like living in

> a mental or developmental institution from birth tell

> the day you die 50-90 years thats not

>

>

LIVING " " " " " " ....................................................................\

.............................................................................

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

tom wrote:

> ... what it must be like living in

>a mental or developmental institution from birth tell

>the day you die 50-90 years thats not

>LIVING " " " " " " ...................................................................\

......................................................................

what if that were not the only option? what if everyone had a decent

place to live, regardless of neurological status?

Why not change what is done to/with people that makes their lives

look so worthless to you?

And talking (as you did) about the inability to imagine what another

person's life is like....Why do you think you know what someone

different from you feels like about his/her own life? Maybe what

looks like " not living " to you is precious to someone else.

Jane

[Guest guest]

I had the same feeling. , sometimes when they put animals down

" to end their suffering " , sometimes they truly are suffering and are

going to die anyway. But most of the time they are put down because

their lives aren't worth spending the money to save.

I'm afraid if doctors or anyone else was given that god-like right

(although I believe in living wills where an individual can choose

death over life should they end up in a " vegetable " state), then they

would start basing who dies upon whom THEY think has a worthless life,

or who would cost the economy the most.

a

> The notion that doctors choosing who lives or dies just sent a shiver

> down

> my spine

>

> eek

>

> Joe

>

>

> >

> > > jerry your not god and i am not god but if a child

> > is going to suffer it's hole life then no.it's like an

> > animal if hit by a car and it is suffering you take it

> > to the doctors and then thy choose if it lives or dies

> > have life is fine liveing life is a big thing

> > suffering your hole life is that rilly fair on them

> > .do you have a child with a disorder or are you the

> > one that does because the are adults that have no

> > under standing of life what it must be like living in

> > a mental or developmental institution from birth tell

> > the day you die 50-90 years thats not

> >

> > LIVING " " " " " " ..................................

[Guest guest]

first of all i have never said that disabled people

are worth less thats you openone not mine.secocnt i am

on a autism board fighting for the rights of thoughs

with autism and others disorders.i was referering to

one persons comminute here the other day where thy

were talking about gentics and autism that thy the

government and mother of the unborn child do not have

the right to a borition so that is what i was talking

about. i am not god nor is the government but what a

mother does it's her bussiness not mine.what i was a

greaing on is yes the mother has the choice and then

you all jump on me like i was some mounster thats the

bigest thing i hate about having autism is that no one

ever under stands me even on the web i blow it. it's

the story of my life time to give up again and move on

p.s i said i am wrighting a book called what's it like

to live with autism .useing 24 children and adults 12

men 12 girls and with help from some friends that type

better then me .this book is not for teaching but

under standing what children and adults on the

spectrum think about and what thy want out of life and

you will see what i am talking

about.tom-g.................

--- Jane Meyerding wrote:

> tom wrote:

> > ... what it must be like living in

> >a mental or developmental institution from birth

> tell

> >the day you die 50-90 years thats not

>

>LIVING " " " " " " ...................................................................\

......................................................................

>

>

> what if that were not the only option? what if

> everyone had a decent

> place to live, regardless of neurological status?

>

> Why not change what is done to/with people that

> makes their lives

> look so worthless to you?

>

> And talking (as you did) about the inability to

> imagine what another

> person's life is like....Why do you think you know

> what someone

> different from you feels like about his/her own

> life? Maybe what

> looks like " not living " to you is precious to

> someone else.

>

> Jane

>

[Guest guest]

arin did you know most states do not give services to

children with rett's,asperger's,pdd-nos,only autism

and cdd.most of the people with autism need 24 care

pdd-nos so do need that care but asperger's never it's

to high functioning.un less you can prove it makes you

so bad you cant do any thing in life.most of the

people i know at lest 95% of need 24 care

autism-pdd-nos.rett's.cdd.but not asperger's .the one

thing i keep leaving out is that yes i did not get the

education i would have like but once i got out of

school and had to deal with the real world i had no

choice but to learn or fale and i do not give up easy

i work for the fire dept.13 1/2 years then i got

muscular dystrophy and had to stop. guess what i

should have said was because of having autism i never

got a chance to be normal so hive i said it wrong that

was not what i ment when i went to school 70-low 90's

thy thought all with autism were uneducatible so thats

why i got skiped but that what thy are still doing i

hear moms and dads complain all the time and board

meeting the schools do not care a bout there children

i hope you can for give me for not under standing my

self when i wright to you all my thoughts get all

twisted up i think one thing and type a nother

----tom-g---

--- " Ari N. " wrote:

> There are many people with autism that have those

> things though. Has it

> occured to you that it may be because of society's

> prejudices and because of

> a lack of the right kinds of educational strategies

> that you don't posess

> them? After all, autism can not be the sole or

> primary cause, given the

> significant number of autistics that do have jobs,

> homes, families and so

> on. Besides, being normal isn't always good. Many

> people have been able to

> do very positive things because, not in spite, of

> their autistic

> neurologies. Give it some thought.

>

>

> On 8/19/06, Marilyn Graner

> wrote:

> >

> > curing autism people want there children and

> familys

> > to be normal not get rid of them. my life would

> have

> > been better if i did not have autism i would have

> > friends,a job,home, a family , and not on ssi/ssa

> >

>

Messages<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse/messages;_ylc=X\

3oDMTJlNWEyMXRrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDYyMjE1BHNlY\

wNmdHIEc2xrA21zZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTE1NjAyMTM4MA-->|

> >

>

Files<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJ\

mZGZlb3NrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDYyMjE1BHNlYwNmdHI\

Ec2xrA2ZpbGVzBHN0aW1lAzExNTYwMjEzODA->|

> >

>

Photos<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse/photos;_ylc=X3oDM\

TJlYWI0bW45BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDYyMjE1BHNlYwNmd\

HIEc2xrA3Bob3QEc3RpbWUDMTE1NjAyMTM4MA-->|

> >

>

Links<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJ\

mc3U1YjE5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDYyMjE1BHNlYwNmdHI\

Ec2xrA2xpbmtzBHN0aW1lAzExNTYwMjEzODA->|

> >

>

Database<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse/database;_ylc=X\

3oDMTJjcXMwOHB2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDYyMjE1BHNlY\

wNmdHIEc2xrA2RiBHN0aW1lAzExNTYwMjEzODA->|

> >

>

Polls<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse/polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJ\

mNWxlYTlrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDYyMjE1BHNlYwNmdHI\

Ec2xrA3BvbGxzBHN0aW1lAzExNTYwMjEzODA->|

> >

>

Members<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse/members;_ylc=X3o\

DMTJlazRtaG43BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDYyMjE1BHNlYwN\

mdHIEc2xrA21icnMEc3RpbWUDMTE1NjAyMTM4MA-->|

> >

>

Calendar<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse/calendar;_ylc=X\

3oDMTJkMTN1MDJiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDYyMjE1BHNlY\

wNmdHIEc2xrA2NhbARzdGltZQMxMTU2MDIxMzgw>

> > [image: Yahoo!

>

Groups]<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkM242b3VyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAz\

M5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDYyMjE1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMTU2MDIxMzgw>

> > You are receiving Individual Emails Change

> Delivery Settings

> >

>

<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJmc25mM\

W1qBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDYyMjE1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA\

3N0bmdzBHN0aW1lAzExNTYwMjEzODA->

> > Visit Your Group

> >

>

<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse;_ylc=X3oDMTJkM3JtNHE1BF\

9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDYyMjE1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2hwZg\

RzdGltZQMxMTU2MDIxMzgw>|

> > Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use

> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>| Unsubscribe

> >

> >

>

<AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse-unsubscribe ?subject=Unsubscribe>

> > Recent Activity

> >

> > - 2

> > New

>

Members<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse/members;_ylc=X3o\

DMTJmY3A2dmxuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDYyMjE1BHNlYwN\

2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzExNTYwMjEzODA->

> >

> > Visit Your Group

> >

>

<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZjAwcmgzBF\

9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzM5ODQwMDgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDYyMjE1BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaH\

AEc3RpbWUDMTE1NjAyMTM4MA-->

> >

[Guest guest]

> what if that were not the only option? what if everyone had a decent

> place to live, regardless of neurological status?

> Why not change what is done to/with people that makes their lives

> look so worthless to you?

> And talking (as you did) about the inability to imagine what another

> person's life is like....Why do you think you know what someone

> different from you feels like about his/her own life? Maybe what

> looks like " not living " to you is precious to someone else.

Indeed, I remember reading something that put it very succinctly. I

can only paraphrase, but the guy said basically, " People don't sit

around in institutions doing nothing and waiting to be rescued.

That's just not what they do all day. "

I lived in them for a much shorter period of time, and it was life, it

wasn't always great life, but it was life. I'd much rather never have

to live in them again, but I was alive while I was in them.

People make lives for themselves wherever they are put. I've read a

book by a woman who was raised in a " mat ward " in an institution where

people ignored the fact (given to them by her parents, but

subsequently ignored) that she moved her eyes up and down to answer

yes/no questions. She made friends with the girl next to her, who had

a similar disability and communicated in a similar way. And they

communicated that way for *years*.

This doesn't make institutions good (I think they're awful and

unnecessary, and that the parts about " necessity " are pure mythology

that's then used to shape reality so they *look* necessary), it just

means that you can't forget that the people inside them are real

people and really living, not just waiting to be transplanted to some

other place that they're never sure will actually come. It's not like

people put their brain or soul on hold when they go in the door.

[Guest guest]

> I defy anyone to convince me that he has the right to decide

> for another human being, whether to be alive. I would bet you that

> nearly all people alive would still choose to be alive if we could

> reverse time to before their birth and show them the future.

Indeed.

It would be very, very easy to portray my life (any of our lives,

really) as a life of total suffering. All you have to do is use

medicalistic terms. Throw in a lifelong chronic pain condition that

went untreated for two decades, a slew of medical terminology,

institutionalization, etc.

That I still very much am glad I am alive (and a fairly happy person

overall) has more to do with how much more there is to a person than a

medical description -- and why medical descriptions are dangerous

things to base a choice of that nature on.

[Guest guest]

> i cant speak for others but i can say that if thats

> what a parent want's to do is there choice not mine

> but you must also look at that child will need care

> it's hole life and hoo pay's for it the goverment and

> the family for life if the child is high functioning

> fine. but profound that will cost so much money to

> care for this person, and is it fair to put that child

> through all the pain and suffering it might have.i am

> lucky to beware i am now but there are others out

> there that are worse then me and how do thy feel " thats

> the ????.

> abortion not wright but if thy can find a way to test

> for autism and say that the child with be high

> functioning fine but if the test say low then i would

> ask my self do i rilly wanted a child that will suffer

> it's hole life i would say no to that,It's like down

> syndrome thy have a test for that but the ? is will

> this child be abale to live a normal life and thy can

> not answer this at this time so that is a big ?? i

> cant answer tom-g

I don't know...

Do I have a " normal life " ?

I live in an apartment with electronic monitoring at night and people

coming in in the daytime.

I've lived in institutions before.

Now I live in an apartment building for senior citizens and disabled

people.

I don't have a job.

I am not married or civil unioned.

I can't use intelligible speech.

I wear adult diapers.

I use a wheelchair.

I take a bunch of medications to keep two different severe chronic

pain conditions under control, only one of which is really under that

much control. (I've had a migraine for years, and something

resembling central pain my whole life.)

My only friends at the moment are autistic or otherwise disabled.

People see me outside and call the police wondering whether I should

be allowed outdoors or not. Or else some call me a " retard " or try to

trick me etc.

I lost a whole bunch of skills when I was a teenager that people

consider absolutely vital for living on your own. Some of them I

never had in the first place. Because of this I was labeled

low-functioning and severely regressed and so forth.

And so on.

However.

I'm happier than a lot of non-disabled people I know. Genuinely

happier. Not forced.

I have a friend living near me.

I've been happy even at times when I was bedridden with pain and my

only activity was staring out the window or at objects on my bed.

I've been happy even at times when I could not move at all.

I've been happy even at times when I could not understand the world in

a typical way at all.

Not " happy " as an emotion, but " happy " as an ongoing state of mind

regardless of emotion.

If you look at various details of my life, you can say, " Who would

want to live like *that*? "

Well, I don't mind living like this. It's my life. Why should I be

expected to sit around thinking how awful it is just because there's

things in it that are very different from most people's lives?

[Guest guest]

> I had the same feeling. , sometimes when they put animals down

> " to end their suffering " , sometimes they truly are suffering and are

> going to die anyway. But most of the time they are put down because

> their lives aren't worth spending the money to save.

I don't see that, at least not among the people I know. There

is a tendency to try to do the opposite, meaning needlessly

prolong the life of an animal.

I wrote a more about it here:

http://www.scn.org/~bk269/attheend.html

> I'm afraid if doctors or anyone else was given that god-like right

> (although I believe in living wills where an individual can choose

> death over life should they end up in a " vegetable " state), then they

> would start basing who dies upon whom THEY think has a worthless life,

> or who would cost the economy the most.

If I'm lying in a bed, brain dead, and somehow responding to

flashlights, I wouldn't really care. There's a sense of loss of

dignity, but what's the difference if I'm already the state

vegetable.

OTOH, if I'm really consciously responding to those flashlights,

PLEASE, PLEASE, pull the plug, remove the plastic feeding tube,

and " accidentally " give me an overdose of whatever human

equivalent of Lethal Blue you can find.

Yes, I realize that there are some people who would do

differently; just don't keep me alive to prove a point.

Incidentally, with the exception of newborns, I hadn't heard of

doctors being given the god-like right to start basing who dies

upon whom THEY think has a worthless life.

- s

[Guest guest]

this hole thing started from some one talking about a

cure for autism and the abortion i was just saying i

think its wrong but what others do is not my falt.then

it went to hell i do not judge people i help people

but if a mom want's to abort her child because the

child might have a rare or some type of disorder it's

not my bussniess i am not the father of all children i

have no control.i wear diapers to 36 years i just

found out i have a rare syndrome from genetics testing

what you do in your life is your live i live mine and

you live yours the only thing i am say is if you are

born into anistution most will stay there for ever i

bowl in the special olympics and there are some adults

that are there from one of the state hospitals and thy

want out but because of there behaviours thy are stuck

there and some familys do not want there children to

leave i think thats wrong that we all should live

free.with my condition i have deen told that one day

when i cant care for my self no longer i am going to a

state developmental hospital because i am on a

ventilator a power chair.diapers and alist of

medications.when it happens then fine i hope thy treat

me like a king and not a peace of trash.it's funny

some times i am looking forward to the move so thy

will do it all and i can relakes enjoy the rest of my

life have a nice night and thanks for wright back and

reading my bad wrighting tom-g............

--- alfamanda wrote:

>

>

> > what if that were not the only option? what if

> everyone had a decent

> > place to live, regardless of neurological status?

>

> > Why not change what is done to/with people that

> makes their lives

> > look so worthless to you?

>

> > And talking (as you did) about the inability to

> imagine what another

> > person's life is like....Why do you think you know

> what someone

> > different from you feels like about his/her own

> life? Maybe what

> > looks like " not living " to you is precious to

> someone else.

>

> Indeed, I remember reading something that put it

> very succinctly. I

> can only paraphrase, but the guy said basically,

> " People don't sit

> around in institutions doing nothing and waiting to

> be rescued.

> That's just not what they do all day. "

>

> I lived in them for a much shorter period of time,

> and it was life, it

> wasn't always great life, but it was life. I'd much

> rather never have

> to live in them again, but I was alive while I was

> in them.

>

> People make lives for themselves wherever they are

> put. I've read a

> book by a woman who was raised in a " mat ward " in an

> institution where

> people ignored the fact (given to them by her

> parents, but

> subsequently ignored) that she moved her eyes up and

> down to answer

> yes/no questions. She made friends with the girl

> next to her, who had

> a similar disability and communicated in a similar

> way. And they

> communicated that way for *years*.

>

> This doesn't make institutions good (I think they're

> awful and

> unnecessary, and that the parts about " necessity "

> are pure mythology

> that's then used to shape reality so they *look*

> necessary), it just

> means that you can't forget that the people inside

> them are real

> people and really living, not just waiting to be

> transplanted to some

> other place that they're never sure will actually

> come. It's not like

> people put their brain or soul on hold when they go

> in the door.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, there's definitely that side of the coin (as per your linked

article). I certainly know of these kind of people, being a

cross-the-whole-species-spectrum pet owner myself, however I wouldn't

have them hang on when it's obviously time for them to go, not

personally, because I'd want the same thing. 1000's and 1000's of

dollars spent on a furry ailing friend, who so obviously needs to make

the transition to the " next world " , I've seen that done. Most people I

call friends are animal friendly people so, yes, I know they are out

there. I don't associate with any other kind really, family being the

exception only because I don't have a choice ;-). But there are those

who have little respect for animal life, often because it's seen as

" lesser than " , which I don't adhere to. (Not just talking pets, but

wildlife as well. The constant clear cutting of forests for $$ and

human greed makes me want to scream...but that's another topic...).

There are people who abandon and neglect their pets, far too many in

fact. Many don't spay or neuter, confusing their pet's sexuality with

their own, forgetting that it's an all too human world that can't

handle tons of excess kittens and puppies, nor would it want to, never

mind that a fixed dog or cat is better suited to that human world, but

the most likely reason for not fixing pets has to do with not wanting

to spend the money, even though this cost factor would/could have been

known of before the pet was acquired. The good pet owners are

outnumbered IMO. But yes, every facet of life has members who go

overboard, even pet owners. We anthropomorphize everything.

I am involved with a reptile and amphibian adoption network that covers

the province. I've seen and heard of many scary situations for some

reptilian pets, who are an animal that can suffer in silence for months

on end, much like a plant can. People become temporarily fascinated

with animals and then suddenly lose interest. That's the way it

usually goes. Some abandon their pets to the wilds (whether they can

survive there or not, and no thought to the ecosystem), and some just

let the animal sit there in the (too small) tank and rot. Fortunately,

some seek people or agencies who can help find it a more suitable home.

Reptiles as pets are " hot " right now. Which will mean an increase in

unwanted reptiles in years to come. But their numbers will never beat

dogs and cats, even if one only counted the homeless adult ones, who

used to have a home with humans who grew tired of them, resulting in

neglect, or who abused them. As for some major collectors of reptiles,

some get " bored " when they realize that they aren't going to make their

millions breeding and selling the latest new " morph " ...

Don't mind me if I rambled, it's what happens when I start writing when

I'm tired :-)

a

> n 21 Aug 2006 P.C. MacNeil wrote:

>

> > I had the same feeling. , sometimes when they put animals down

> > " to end their suffering " , sometimes they truly are suffering and are

> > going to die anyway. But most of the time they are put down because

> > their lives aren't worth spending the money to save.

>

> I don't see that, at least not among the people I know. There

> is a tendency to try to do the opposite, meaning needlessly

> prolong the life of an animal.

>

> I wrote a more about it here:

> http://www.scn.org/~bk269/attheend.html

[Guest guest]

> this hole thing started from some one talking about a

> cure for autism and the abortion i was just saying i

> think its wrong but what others do is not my falt.then

> it went to hell i do not judge people i help people

> but if a mom want's to abort her child because the

> child might have a rare or some type of disorder it's

> not my bussniess i am not the father of all children i

> have no control

What whole thing? Relax, it's just debate, you should try not to take

everything personally. Nothing went to " hell " , that's just your

perception.

Yup, you're right abortion is a woman's right, I agree wholeheartedly.

What is bothersome to me is how important it is to let these mother's

know every flaw that kid could have before it's even born. Scaring the

livin' bejeezuz out of new mothers, telling them their child is less

than " perfect " . A mother should be free to love whatever comes her

way. And society should teach itself how to handle diversity and

challenges they don't like taking.

a

[Guest guest]

paula every time i post here thy all get pissed off at

me this has been this way cent birth for me i cant

help the way i think and spell stuff wrong and then

people miss under stand what i am saying.i do not take

it personaly but when some one tells you that i do not

care about life or mine will that hurts i do not under

stand most people it take time for me to get what thy

are talking about i listen to the small talk and miss

the big talk and that has caused much damage to the

way i talk back because i do not under stand the hole

picture and so on.like apies.i know my self as

autistic and nt's still have a problem with that one i

have on idea what an nt is.cure to me is to fix it but

some think cure is to whip out the person if i ask

then people think i am rilly stuped so i try to find

out on my own and i blow it can you tell me what nt's

are i don't know thanks tom-g......

--- " P.C. MacNeil " wrote:

>

>

>

> > this hole thing started from some one talking

> about a

> > cure for autism and the abortion i was just

> saying i

> > think its wrong but what others do is not my

> falt.then

> > it went to hell i do not judge people i help

> people

> > but if a mom want's to abort her child because

> the

> > child might have a rare or some type of disorder

> it's

> > not my bussniess i am not the father of all

> children i

> > have no control

>

> What whole thing? Relax, it's just debate, you

> should try not to take

> everything personally. Nothing went to " hell " ,

> that's just your

> perception.

>

> Yup, you're right abortion is a woman's right, I

> agree wholeheartedly.

> What is bothersome to me is how important it is to

> let these mother's

> know every flaw that kid could have before it's even

> born. Scaring the

> livin' bejeezuz out of new mothers, telling them

> their child is less

> than " perfect " . A mother should be free to love

> whatever comes her

> way. And society should teach itself how to handle

> diversity and

> challenges they don't like taking.

>

> a

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

[Guest guest]

What a great attitude to have! I think many people could learn from

you, .

Ruby

>

> I don't know...

>

> Do I have a " normal life " ?

>

> I live in an apartment with electronic monitoring at night and

people

> coming in in the daytime

>

> I've lived in institutions before.

>

> Now I live in an apartment building for senior citizens and

disabled

> people.

>

> I don't have a job.

>

> I am not married or civil unioned.

>

> I can't use intelligible speech.

>

> I wear adult diapers.

>

> I use a wheelchair.

>

> I take a bunch of medications to keep two different severe chronic

> pain conditions under control, only one of which is really under

that

> much control. (I've had a migraine for years, and something

> resembling central pain my whole life.)

>

> My only friends at the moment are autistic or otherwise disabled.

>

> People see me outside and call the police wondering whether I

should

> be allowed outdoors or not. Or else some call me a " retard " or

try to

> trick me etc.

>

> I lost a whole bunch of skills when I was a teenager that people

> consider absolutely vital for living on your own. Some of them I

> never had in the first place. Because of this I was labeled

> low-functioning and severely regressed and so forth.

>

> And so on.

>

> However.

>

> I'm happier than a lot of non-disabled people I know. Genuinely

> happier. Not forced.

>

> I have a friend living near me.

>

> I've been happy even at times when I was bedridden with pain and my

> only activity was staring out the window or at objects on my bed.

>

> I've been happy even at times when I could not move at all.

>

> I've been happy even at times when I could not understand the

world in

> a typical way at all.

>

> Not " happy " as an emotion, but " happy " as an ongoing state of mind

> regardless of emotion.

>

> If you look at various details of my life, you can say, " Who would

> want to live like *that*? "

>

> Well, I don't mind living like this. It's my life. Why should I

be

> expected to sit around thinking how awful it is just because

there's

> things in it that are very different from most people's lives?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> > >

> > > > .I usually stay quiet, but I really have to say

> > > > this. I think the danger lay

> > > > in this...

> > > >

> > > > Doesn't the real scary thing be that if people

> > have

> > > > the choice

> > > > to say, ''Oh I took that test and found out I am

> > > > carrying a baby who will

> > > > grow to term

> > > > and be autistic? Horrid! Then I will abort the

> > baby.

> > > > Its my choice.''

> > > >

> > > > Isn't it better then, to choose life, WITH the

> > > > struggles, Tom, to choose

> > > > acceptance for

> > > > oneself, to --- dare I say ---be happy with

> > being

> > > > autistic, despite the

> > > > challenges, even

> > > > though it presents a series of hurdles for those

> > > > affected?

> > > >

> > > > Because the alternative, the so-called cure,

> > (see

> > > > paragraph 2,) is alarming.

> > > >

> > > > K

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > > removed]

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

> > it's like an animal if hit by a car and it is suffering ...

> It is awfully patronizing of you to equate our lives with that

> of an animal hit by a car. And sick too.

I disagree, since to a certain extent the same considerations

apply.

One of the considerations for an animal or human is whether life

is meaningful. In many instances, humans can enjoy life in a

manner which would be unsuitable, for example, in the case of a

dog. pointed that out:

" I take a bunch of medications to keep two different severe

chronic pain conditions under control, only one of which is

really under that much control. (I've had a migraine for years

....

However.

I'm happier than a lot of non-disabled people I know. Genuinely

happier. Not forced. "

But that only demonstrates the point, that there are humans who

can enjoy life in circumstances where I suspect a dog wouldn't.

But the considerations are the same (Would the person wish to

live?).

There are of course other considerations. If one runs over a

tree rat, one is not inclined to pay for the squirrel's

treatment. So in that respect there is a substantial

difference. But the basic concept of life having value to the

being is the same and can be equated.

- s

[Guest guest]

dear jerry i am truly sorry you do not under stand

what i was talking about. i was not justifing ones

life to an animal.do you remeber the terry shivoe case

that her husben wanted the feeding tube out be cause

she was suffering.thats what i was talking about there

are rare syndromes children are born with that cause

there skin to fall off and thy are in pain from birth

tell thy die is it right if you know that your child

is going to suffer in the worst pain that you will

never ever know i would say no . i also said if it's

my child that would be the hardest thing to think

about and deside am i doing the right thing in leting

this child that will suffer it hole life be born i

cant answer that because i have not had to make that

choice in my life at this time but what others do is

there will to give life and stop it not mine

I asked one of are board members last night i told

them what every body in the world is talking about, i

asked him would you like to have your daughter with

rett's hoo is profound noneverbal,7years old in

diapers and a wheelchairs if he likes his daughter

this why or if thy could cure her and make her normal

and he said.(NORMAL) hoo in there right mind would a

child to have any disorders of any kind.so what i have

said it true maybe you like the why you and i like my

self but other out there in the world do not want

there children disabled.that the way life is man is

alway fighting man tell the day we all get along and

have world peace and no disorders we will be happy

together we all think differently thats what make us

special take care i hope you now under stand were i am

comeing from i am not sick i am autistic this is how

god has made me please take me for hoo i am not what i

am good night tom-g...

p.s if you still think i am off in the wrong

with this please tell me but do not tell me or curse

me off thats not far i am trying my best here to help

other and get the right info the old saying don't

judge a book by it's cover read it first thanks good

night.....

--- Gerald Newport wrote:

>

> > > >

> > > > > .I usually stay quiet, but I really have to

> say

> > > > > this. I think the danger lay

> > > > > in this...

> > > > >

> > > > > Doesn't the real scary thing be that if

> people

> > > have

> > > > > the choice

> > > > > to say, ''Oh I took that test and found out

> I am

> > > > > carrying a baby who will

> > > > > grow to term

> > > > > and be autistic? Horrid! Then I will abort

> the

> > > baby.

> > > > > Its my choice.''

> > > > >

> > > > > Isn't it better then, to choose life, WITH

> the

> > > > > struggles, Tom, to choose

> > > > > acceptance for

> > > > > oneself, to --- dare I say ---be happy with

> > > being

> > > > > autistic, despite the

> > > > > challenges, even

> > > > > though it presents a series of hurdles for

> those

> > > > > affected?

> > > > >

> > > > > Because the alternative, the so-called cure,

> > > (see

> > > > > paragraph 2,) is alarming.

> > > > >

> > > > > K

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > > > removed]

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> But that only demonstrates the point, that there are humans who

> can enjoy life in circumstances where I suspect a dog wouldn't.

> But the considerations are the same (Would the person wish to

> live?).

A person can't know whether they'd wish to live until they do live it.

But for instance, they've found in France that only about 4 out of

300 people with locked-in syndrome, including some who'd been

mistakenly diagnosed " vegetative " and without a communication system

until they were properly diagnosed, said they wanted to die. And that

number sounds roughly equivalent to suicidal thinking in non-disabled

people. That should tell us something.

With regard to circumstances where a dog wouldn't, I notice that most

dogs don't get too depressed if they lose a leg or two. And then

humans are thinking " Weird, I'd feel awful if I lost a leg, these dogs

are so amazing. " But the dogs aren't amazing, most humans who

actually don't have legs don't feel any worse about their lives than

humans who do have legs.

[Guest guest]

> One of the considerations for an animal or human is whether life

> is meaningful. In many instances, humans can enjoy life in a

> manner which would be unsuitable, for example, in the case of a

> dog.

That's the other thing though -- pain management for humans is way

more advanced than pain management for dogs. Why? Part of the reason

is undoubtedly that it's harder to get a dog to tell you that you're

in pain. But part of the reason might be that dogs get killed in

circumstances where most humans would not get killed (and

circumstances where most humans would not think it was right to kill a

human) -- so it's more likely when a dog is in a lot of pain, for the

dog to die, rather than for pain management research to be carried out

to figure out how to help the dog live in less pain.