Re: my 9 yr old

February 15, 2008

What a great term " garbage can " ! It caused me to have a lightbulb

moment -- that my nada and dishrag dad can indeed use me as their

garbage can. To their eternal frustration, I've now made it clear I'm

not here for that.

-Kyla

February 15, 2008

Good morning Kyla:

I love the way you put that, finding my new voice! That is exactly what I need

to do!

Boy, I think I need to hire you as my therapist

Thanks again,

Karla

Re: my 9 yr old

Good job!

I would love to share what we talked about in my last group session

that you might benefit from at this point:

So many of us who were taught not to speak up -- thereby making us

afraid to speak up in life -- need to learn to both speak up AND to

let the chips fall without having a fit of nerves.

I spoke up the other day during a spirited discussion in my book

club. I was shaking inside -- I was strongly disagreeing with

someone (something new for me!). Later, when we were all getting up

to go home, that little voice inside me told me to apologize for

getting everyone all riled up! For the first time, I IGNORED THAT

VOICE. It was the old voice from my childhood that told me I wasn't

entitled to an opinion or to speak my mind. My therapist told me we

can rewrite or re-record over that voice with a NEW voice. You're

finding your new voice.

You have spoken your mind. GOOD!! You have taken steps to stop

emotional blackmail of your child. GOOD!! Take a deep breath and

steel yourself not to be afraid of what comes next. You don't have

to hold the world up anymore and you have NOTHING to apologize for

or be ashamed of. So tell the old fear to take a hike!! Let the

chips fall. They're not ALL yours to pick up!

Hang in there and tell yourself you're sick of being afraid of your

mother's reactions to things.

-Kyla

________________________________________________________________________________\

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February 15, 2008

the thing about the garbage can is so weird, too. For all the

unloading my mother did on me she has never reciprocated. It's

bizarre. I can remember being about 8 years old and sitting up one

night with her listening to her cry and go on about my father and how

unhappy she was and all that, trying to comfort her, and then the very

next day sitting at the kitchen table and apparently something

happened (I can't remember exactly what, maybe my father and I had a

disagreement) and she looks at me and glares and clenches her jaw and

starts talking about my relationship with him and says 'you have hurt

him SO MUCH', in a really hateful voice. It was bizarre, I remember

being completely devastated by the 'switch' she made; first he was the

villian, then the very next day, I, at all of 8 years old, was the

villian. I wonder what that makes her...I wonder if it qualifies her

for bpd. I really don't know where to 'place' her in terms of her

behavior...I know I can't diagnose but her mental glitches are

sometimes weirder than my father's.

February 15, 2008

<<I know I can't diagnose but her mental glitches are

> sometimes weirder than my father's.>>

BINGO! It constantly amazes me how these people ALWAYS find each

other. In my parents' case, my mother is the BPD, and she's primarily

a helpless waif. My dad was in need of a " damsel in distress " to make

himself feel important and needed. Perfect match. They're both VERY

caught up in a sick system -- and I'm the outsider.

-Kyla

>

February 15, 2008

OMG!! for all of you who read my posts yesterday regarding my mom and my 9yr

old daughter, and the email i sent my mom, well, the lashing out has started. I

am at work and 2 of my aunts have already left me a message, I refused to return

their calls, so my husband called my father to find out what is going on. Well,

she has been crying uncontrollably and is telling them its like I spit in her

face!

My hands are shaking and I started crying at work! I can't believe this.

Re: my 9 yr old

<<I know I can't diagnose but her mental glitches are

> sometimes weirder than my father's.>>

BINGO! It constantly amazes me how these people ALWAYS find each

other. In my parents' case, my mother is the BPD, and she's primarily

a helpless waif. My dad was in need of a " damsel in distress " to make

himself feel important and needed. Perfect match. They're both VERY

caught up in a sick system -- and I'm the outsider.

-Kyla

>

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February 15, 2008

I had a friend with a somewhat similar situation whom I've let go of.

She married and had a child, and once she had that kid, all I ever

heard from her was complaining that she was a terrible mother, a

terrible housekeeper, a terrible wife. She would say she never had

enough time to do anything right or give enough.

We went to the mall one time when her baby was a few months old. The

baby was with Grandma, which should make everyone happy. But the

whole time she talked about how guilty she felt. I suggested that she

was allowed some time to herself and could maybe commit herself to 2

hours a week of guilt-free time, and she pooh-poohed that. (I think

she was feeling like how could *I* know anything, cause *I* don't have

kids.) Finally I said, " let's go home " because I was so sick of

hearing it.

Then she had less and less time for me for years, and she later

admitted that she chose to spend her time with couples so she would

not feel bad about being away from her husband.

When I *would* talk to her on the phone, besides her going on about

being a horrible person, she would never just talk on the phone. She

had to be cleaning, multi-tasking, talking to her husband about housework.

Okay, I'm rambling now, but my point is that it is very difficult to

be in a healthy relationship with someone who is exhibiting unhealthy

behaviors when you are getting better. My friend could not stop

beating herself up, and the last thing I was going to do was demand

more time from her, when she felt terrible about not seeing her family

enough. So I checked out.

Other than that (smile), she really was a very kind person and giving

friend.

Her mother, BTW, always reminded me of my own. I think she has her

own nada to contend with. Her mother insisted that her first

grandchild *couldn't* be HALF the dad's biologically. The child was

*mostly* her daughter's. Very bizarre.

>

> <<To this day, I've lost a high school friend a year (on average)

> due to my own growth and intolerance of histronic behavior....It

> took a lot of healing for me to realize I couldn't 'fix' people and

> that my perpetual instincts to do so were implanted there by nada.>>

>

> Oh, how I can relate!

>

> I am waking up to the fact that I will settle for scraps from

> friendships -- and I'm sick of it and starting to change it.

>

> Case in point: Last labor day, I FINALLY got my " best " friend of 20

> years to come stay with us at our Lakehouse. I had been inviting

> her since we bought it 18 months earlier. (That in itself was a bit

> of a red flag that I ignored.)

>

> She, her husband and their kids (who match up with my kids really

> well -- they all have a great time together) showed up and she

> immediately starts on her " exit story " ......Long story short, they

> stayed 24 hours, and I was left standing there as they pulled out of

> the driveway thinking " What the hell was that? "

>

> My friend has such anxiety that she has developed Obsessive-

> Compulsive Personality Disorder. She's addicted to order and

> tasking. She fits all but one of the diagnostic criteria.

>

> She's cancelled 2 other things we had planned to do together -- and

> after the last cancellation, she said in an apologetic e-mail " My

> mom is always telling me 'friendship is a luxury'. She didn't even

> realize what a hurtful thing that is to say.

>

> She's so caught up in tasking, etc. and she has lots of friends, old

> and new, but I've noticed that these friendships are conducted at

> HER direction, and interactions are ALWAYS at her house, so she can

> fold laundry or work on household projects while you follow her

> around like a puppy.

>

> After 25 years of close friendship, I decided I was sick of being

> treated that way. As she was packing to leave the lake last Labor

> Day, I summoned the courage to state my feelings. I said " I had no

> idea you guys were only going to stay 24 hours -- I'm disappointed

> you're leaving. " You know what my " best friend " said? She shrugged

> her shoulders and changed the subject by saying " Look at that boat

> over there! "

>

> She's in so deep with this disorder, I truly don't think anything

> would have been gained by some big announcement that I was leaving

> the friendship. I just politely declined her 2 invitations to come

> have coffee and catch up (at HER HOUSE, of course), and I could tell

> she felt guilty at how she left the lake. But, I was polite in my

> declines, claimed thanks, but I couldn't make it and let it go.

>

> She's stopped inviting me over and we've both gone on with our

> lives. I think on some level, she KNOWS that she's being a terrible

> friend, but any spotlight on her behavior would threaten her tasking

> and obsessing about control, and she's not ABOUT to figure out how

> to give that up -- such is its grip on her.

>

> -Kyla

February 15, 2008

(((((((((((((((Karla))))))))))))))))

Wow, she didn't waste anytime. Sorry that you are going through

this. Stay strong.

>

> OMG!! for all of you who read my posts yesterday regarding my mom

and my 9yr old daughter, and the email i sent my mom, well, the

lashing out has started. I am at work and 2 of my aunts have already

left me a message, I refused to return their calls, so my husband

called my father to find out what is going on. Well, she has been

crying uncontrollably and is telling them its like I spit in her

face!

>

> My hands are shaking and I started crying at work! I can't believe

this.

>

> Re: my 9 yr old

>

> <<I know I can't diagnose but her mental glitches are

> > sometimes weirder than my father's.>>

>

> BINGO! It constantly amazes me how these people ALWAYS find each

> other. In my parents' case, my mother is the BPD, and she's

primarily

> a helpless waif. My dad was in need of a " damsel in distress " to

make

> himself feel important and needed. Perfect match. They're both VERY

> caught up in a sick system -- and I'm the outsider.

>

> -Kyla

> >

>

______________________________________________________________________

______________

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>

February 15, 2008

I think you did the right thing for you and your family. That was a

big step for you, and not an easy one--good job.

I know it must be frustrating and annoying that she has already sent

your extended family after you. I'm sure you will find lots of

advice on this issue just by searching through the recent posts and

archives, or by reading one of the myriad books we have all come to

love and depend on.

Hang in there, and just remember that it isn't your job (or your

husband's, or your father's, or your aunts', for that matter) to

manage your mother's feelings. That's her job. I know she's not

well equipped for it at this point, so what you might say to her or

those who try to make you feel guilty by telling you " she feels like

you spit in her face " is this: " Wow, Mom, I can see that you're very

upset. If you are unhappy with the way your relationships are going,

you might consider talking to a professional about it. " And leave it

at that.

My mom used a different expression when she started realizing I was

going to stand up for myself and stop giving her her way all the

time: " , I feel like you just kicked me in the stomach. " One of

the BPs quoted in SWOE said something similar. [Hmm, on a tangent,

as I type that, I realize that at one point in time I actually DID

kick her in the stomach...IN UTERO...]

I'm sure it does feel hurtful to them when we come out and tell them

we disapprove of their behavior--it's the black/white thinking--but

essentially that kind of comment is manipulative. My mother--like

yours--was trying to make me feel like I had done something wrong. I

hadn't. Neither have you; in fact, I think you have done something

very right.

Hang in there. I think not answering calls from extended family is a

fine idea right now. Do what you like, but realize that if they are

calling you now, it is not because they want to hear your point of

view but because they are enmeshed in your mother's games.

Hugs to you and your family,

February 15, 2008

Weather the storm, dear. Weather the storm.

Notice how she's contacted everybody but YOU directly. That tells

you she's building her army because deep down she knows you have a

point.

Oh, and all the CRYING she's doing? Perfect opportunity for you to

remain calm (good idea to NOT call the aunts back -- you aren't

doing this by committee!!) and suggest, very empathetically, " I

think mom may need some professional help -- she seems to be crying

all the time. "

If I were in your shoes, I'd remain calm and detached and slightly

puzzled by why all these people are interested in you merely making

sure your daughter isn't upset by your mother's crying. Practice

your " puzzled " look -- as if you don't know why they would object to

what you're doing?!!

Stay with it -- ride it out......Ignore the noise and clatter she's

drumming up. Remember to breathe. Get on with your day and your

life.

-Kyla

February 15, 2008

Yep -- that's definitely another " scraps " situation.

-Kyla

February 16, 2008

The thread about letting go of friends really hit a chord with me. I

have a friend who had twins about 10 months ago. When she was

pregnant, she had the typicl twin pregnancy complications (bed rest,

etc.), but all in all, it wasn't a horrible pregnancy. I helped her a

lot at the end...cleaning closets, the house, everything. I hosted her

baby shower. She was in the hospital a week after having the twins and

I visited twice during that week and then a number of times when she

was off on maternity leave. I took them meals a couple of times. Mind

you, I have a 12 year old and a 9 year old...so my own life isn't

unbusy! I helped out with what I could, but when the babies were about

4 months old and she was still complaining incestantly about how hard

things were, I backed off. Yes...she was working full time too...but

her Mom is her daycare provider. The babies don't even have to leave

her house (and in 10 months they have gone on very few visits

anywhere!). My first thought had been to help more. But then I

realized I had spent an entire Saturday afternoon listening to her

complain. Sunday I would have to do all my own chores that didn't get

done and then I'd be off to work on Monday morning. We still kept in

touch, but she and her husband only came over one time in that first

nine months and for only a little while (she only packed 2

bottles...one for each twin...so we know she wasn't planning on staying

long!). Anyhow...we took gifts over for the twins for Christmas just

after the new year. She was very cold and seemed angry during most of

the visit. I went on-line to the twin website where I knew she

sometimes posted and found this really long post about how her husbands

family and her friends had been such a big disappointment and play very

little role in her life now. I was really hurt. I e-mailed her my

feelings and now she isn't speaking with me. At first I felt really

bad...rethought what I should have said in the e-mail, etc. But now I

feel like if I can't actually share my true feelings with a friend,

then what kind of friendship is it anyway? It's a shame though. I

would love to be able to spend time with her and her husband and the

babies, but friendship is a two way street that travels in both

directions.

Live and learn I guess!

>

> I had a friend with a somewhat similar situation whom I've let go of.

> She married and had a child, and once she had that kid, all I ever

> heard from her was complaining that she was a terrible mother, a

> terrible housekeeper, a terrible wife. She would say she never had

> enough time to do anything right or give enough.

>

February 16, 2008

Karla-

Hang in there! I am so sorry this is happening to you...you

certainly don't deserve it.

It does really suck when other people interject and fan the flames.

I always try to remember that anyone who would buy into my NADAs

version of reality is either 1) Clueless or 2) Dealing with the

situation in a totally dysfunctional manner or BOTH!

I have an Aunt who is a counselor who has never said to me that my

NADAs emotional blackmail is inappropriate. My NADA spent well over

a year telling lies about me behind my back. I can only imagine the

stories she's told. It hurts on so many levels.

But again, anyone who would buy into your NADAs line of crap needs

some help in their own right. You behaved like an adult. You drew

your boundaries. They had a temper tantrum when they were told they

couldn't do exactly what they wanted. The whole bunch of them can

have a time out! You deserve much, much better!

JJFAN

>

> OMG!! for all of you who read my posts yesterday regarding my mom

and my 9yr old daughter, and the email i sent my mom, well, the

lashing out has started. I am at work and 2 of my aunts have already

left me a message, I refused to return their calls, so my husband

called my father to find out what is going on. Well, she has been

crying uncontrollably and is telling them its like I spit in her

face!

>

> My hands are shaking and I started crying at work! I can't believe

this.

>

February 16, 2008

Ouch. I can see where that would hurt to find out, after all that

effort and help, that she really only wants to gripe and be a victim.

No attitude of gratitude. And you did a lot for her! And your story

gave me some further insight into my lost friendship of 25 years --

she had twins, too! She always uses " being busy " as the reason why I

never heard from her. And I was helping her all the time, too.

It hurts to lose a friendship -- but I guess it would have been worse

for us to have continued a false friendship.

-Kyla

February 16, 2008

You said it, JJFAN! I completely agree. You have to leave those

opinions on the table, ignored.

-kyla

February 16, 2008

JJFan and VegDeanna,

I can also identify with letting go of friends. Good topic!! Really

got me to thinking.

I recently had to bury a friendship. The only time we got along was

when I catered to her; she had a migraine and needed a ride to the ER

for her migraine cocktail, she needed help cleaning her house, she

needed to borrow some money, she wanted to go to a conference and

promised to pay me out of her stipend when we got back (never did),

her teenage kids needed advice, she needed a shoulder to cry on when

she and her husband were fighting, she needed a place to have

birthday parties for her kids and my house had more space and seating

than hers, etc. Anyway, as long as I was catering to her, I was the

best friend in the whole world. I thought we were close and I treated

her like I treat my sister. I figured she'd be there for me when I

needed a friend and our friendship would someday be mutual. But she

never would pick up the phone to call me to find out how I was, she

never followed up when she knew I was having troubles, she

conveniently developed migraines or got sick every time events were

planned for my boys, she never showed up at drama productions that

were important to my teenage son, she forgot my kids birthdays, she

was rude to my husband. The final straw was when she blew up at my

husband for planning a surprize birthday party for me. She was mad

that he didn't consult her because the night he planned it for, she

couldn't make it. She yelled at him and then stopped speaking to me

altogether. Incredibly strained when you attend church together

every Sunday, sing in a small choir (less than 15 people, we were the

only two altos) right next to each other. Seriously, I'd try to talk

with her and she'd literally ignore me and physically turn her back

to me. I realize now that I fell into a friendship that mimicked my

relationship with nada!! All the more reason to let this toxic

relationship die. (Has anyone read the book " Why is it Always About

You " by Sandy Hotchkiss?)

You know, it's amazing. Reading everyone's experiences and thoughts

has truly brought about a change in me recently. Thinking about my

life and why I do the things I do, why I put up with things that most

people wouldn't, why I act the way I do,...and finally, whether or

not I have the power to change any given situation and exactly where

I fit in to making a change. Nada programmed me to be a pleaser. It

was easier to deny my emotions to keep the peace. She taught me to

stuff my feelings and think that I have to be everyone's problem-

solver at the expense of my own time, sanity, health and

relationships because that's the pattern she instilled in me. I

truly took on the weight of the world. Everyone needed to be happy

and it was my job to see to it. Well I'm ready to stop choosing

negative relationships and to let go of that inflated sense of

perfectionistic responsibility. I don't want to be drawn to people

that evoke all my old negative coping patterns just because that's

what's eerily comfortable to me. I, too, want to be able to have my

friends take my opinion into consideration just as I do theirs. I

totally agree with the two way street, I want to pick friends that

respect me for me, not for what I can give them or do for them. But

that also requires work, thought and boundaries on my part and not

being so approval-hungry that I lay out all my cards and open myself

up to the wrong type of friendships.

Just some thoughts,....thanks for listening.

Kindest regards,

Mercy

> >

> > I had a friend with a somewhat similar situation whom I've let go

of.

> > She married and had a child, and once she had that kid, all I

ever

> > heard from her was complaining that she was a terrible mother, a

> > terrible housekeeper, a terrible wife. She would say she never

had

> > enough time to do anything right or give enough.

> >

>

February 16, 2008

I'm sorry you are having to deal with that. I can relate. It seems

to me that folks like this live for situations like

this...especially if someone put something in writing that they can

pass around and say, 'look, look how they are treating me'. Sigh...

I was thinking about your post earlier at work because I know how it

feels to be put in that position of the villian, my theory has

always been that because there were actual villians in my mother's

childhood (and probably my fathers) that they never processed the

stuff around it, so they are perpetually trying to put themselves in

the victim role so they can get the sympathy and validation they

never got as a child. It's really sad to me when people turn around

and make their children the villian, that is such...there just

aren't any words. I am new to this board and to the bpd stuff so I

don't know all the lingo yet, but one thing that has helped me over

the years is the Karpman Drama Triangle, where the three points are

victim, rescuer, persecutor. People who live on the victim corner of

the triangle, as a way of life, only relate to others as either

rescuers or perpetrators, and if you aren't willing to do the

rescuing then guess what, there is only one corner left on the

triangle, lol. I think what reading and posting here has given me is

the knowledge that this is a mental health disorder and that people

are conditioned to behave this way because of things that have

nothing to do with me...because for years I had all this knowledge,

about things like the drama triangle, and I would actually point it

out to my family and try to enlighten them, to no avail, needless to

say. Now I am seeing that because their destructiveness doesn't hurt

them in a way that matters to them, they have no motivation to

change and the only thing I can do is protect myself, or at least

try. One thing that hit me as I was thinking about this this morning

is that for all their posturing like I am the 'villain' in my

family, and have 'hurt' them, the truth is that I didn't reject my

family. It was them that rejected me. They don't even have any

concept of what they missed, of the person that I really am inside,

because they are too busy trying to make me into one of those stand-

up cardboard cutouts that they can project onto and work through

their issues with. The human being that I really am is lost to them.

I feel like I have come close to being lost to myself, by giving

them the 'panic' reaction that they want when they play drama

triangle games. Sorry this is such a long response. I can really

relate to the feelings and the emotional reaction that you are

describing because I've been there. I want to learn how to keep

reacting emotionally when I'm put on the 'persecutor corner' so to

speak, by my family. I just want to stay calm. I don't want to give

them that anymore. I want them to keep their sickness to themselves,

to brush it off when it 'gets on' me. I think you are going a very

honorable thing in trying to protect your child. It's your duty as a

parent. Anyone worthy of being in your life should understand that.

If they don't understand why you can't allow someone dump their

adult emotions all over your nine-year old then, well, that is their

problem.

>

> OMG!! for all of you who read my posts yesterday regarding my mom

and my 9yr old daughter, and the email i sent my mom, well, the

lashing out has started. I am at work and 2 of my aunts have

already left me a message, I refused to return their calls, so my

husband called my father to find out what is going on. Well, she

has been crying uncontrollably and is telling them its like I spit

in her face!

>

> My hands are shaking and I started crying at work! I can't

believe this.

>

> Re: my 9 yr old

>

> <<I know I can't diagnose but her mental glitches are

> > sometimes weirder than my father's.>>

>

> BINGO! It constantly amazes me how these people ALWAYS find each

> other. In my parents' case, my mother is the BPD, and she's

primarily

> a helpless waif. My dad was in need of a " damsel in distress " to

make

> himself feel important and needed. Perfect match. They're both

VERY

> caught up in a sick system -- and I'm the outsider.

>

> -Kyla

> >

>

_____________________________________________________________________

_______________

> Looking for last minute shopping deals?

> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?

category=shopping

>

February 16, 2008

Another thing I was thinking of, like what other people have said, is

you can say " yes, and she was doing that to my child, and my child is

not mature enough to be exposed to that kind of behavior in an adult " .

If she is throwing a fit like this then that should be enough to

validate your reasons for not wanting your 9 year old exposed to it.

>

> Well, she

> has been crying uncontrollably and is telling them its like I spit

> in her face!

> >

>

February 16, 2008

Mayalisa,

I must say, this was an absolutely elegant and poignant post! You seem to

have gotten your mind around BPD, its effects on KOs, persectuor/ rescuer/

victim relationships, developing coping skills etc. so quickly!! The tone of

this e-mail is different from your first few, I'm quite impressed with how

quickly you seem to be unraveling and understanding your years of abuse and

trauma.

I can relate to the feeling that they need us to be cardboard cutouts, they

never try to know us for what/ who we are--our identity formation is shakier

(and maybe later?) in its emergence than as is the case with other children

who've received consistency, security, unconditional love and support from their

parents throughout their lives because they use us up (like a bar of soap, as

people on here have said) until we're old enough to realize we CAN and SHOULD

live for ourselves, not them!

I liked the bit where you said you'd like to keep the emotional spatter from

'getting' on you! What a funny and apt image.

It can be hard to resign ourselves to the idea that we will never be able to

explain to them what is so clear to us, I gave up on trying to be honest with my

nada years ago. Whenvever I try to talk about my feelings, she is very

dismissive, it's futile. She's only going to understand her Oz-colored view of

reality and there is nothing I can ever say that will reach her.

mayalisa728 wrote: