Re: my 9 yr old

[Guest guest]

That's a tough one, Karla.

Have you discussed any of it with your daughter? I'm thinking more a

discussion that just allows your daughter to process and express things, where

you (and/or your dh) just listen and validate (not give her advice, for

instance).

In my opinion, your mother is using your daughter to get at you, and that is

hideous. How dare she traumatize a 9 year old child like that??? Since when is

your daughter the one to bear responsibility for any of her grandmother's

happiness? And how dare your mother put that upon her??? At some point, help

your daughter understand that grandma is using the word " need " instead of the

word " want. " Your mother does not NEED to see your daughter...and if she DOES

then that is unfair to your child to be depended on that way by an adult.

I think it's a tough line to draw...especially if the BPD parent was also one

to restrict your relationships with other relatives (I know mine was!). Of

course your daughter probably wants to see Grandma...she's been taught by

grandma that grandma can't be happy without her. Such an unfair burden!!!

Grandma will live and be happy even if they don't see each other. But you know

both of them best...and you know what your daughter can and cannot understand.

Can she really deal with the drama of your mother for a visit? Is there fallout

that YOU want to deal with? Or is your daughter capable of understanding on a

simple level that Grandma's brain does not work like most people...and that this

makes grandma say and do things that are not fair or nice?

Like I said, I think it's hard to draw the line...a line between " giving my

child something she really wants " and " making sure my child is fully protected. "

Perhaps there is a middle ground...another adult to act as buffer and who can

remove your daughter from the situation as soon as your mother acts up? But

honestly? In my opinion it's completely acceptable for you to cut off the

contact between the two of them. Your daughter is nine anyway...it's perfectly

acceptable to have a house rule that she has to have permission before using the

phone anyway. That way you can screen the calls she makes...and have an adult

not only listening in on her conversations with your mother (should you choose

to allow those to continue)...but have that adult ready to cut the call off when

your mother starts in.

She's nine...she has the right to be carefree, you know?

Ninera

Karla Hague wrote:

Good Morning Everyone,

Well, as some of you may recall from my posts yesterday, I mentioned how I

allowed my 9 yr old to call my mom after a few weeks of no contact, and how my

mom just cried and cried and it made my daughter emotional.

Well, yesterday evening my daughter called her again with out my husband or I

realizing it, before we knew it, she was on the phone with her,did not ask us

first. My mom did the same thing again and my daughter got all emotional again,

crying and asking us why she can not go over to see her. My mom kept saying to

her " I really need to see you " , (my husband decided to go listen on the other

phone).

I don't know what to do, my daughter is having a hard time understanding and I

am not sure if I should send my mom an email explaining to her she can not do

this to my children, or should I just put my foot down and not allow my kids to

contact her? I just don't want my daughter to feel like she is being punished.

I need and appreciate all of your advice.

Thank you,

Karla

Re: [WTOAdultChildren1MY FIRST THERAPY SESSION

Karla --

When I read your therapist's reasoning behind telling you to call

your mother right away ( " He just said that this can not continue and

that by not calling her i am letting her win in the sense that now

she has bad stuff to say about me. " ), my head just about exploded!

Sure, he's human and he's entitled to his opinion, but I think one

of the cornerstones of damage that our BPD parents did to us was the

thought that we needed to be afraid that the BPD would talk bad

about us, thereby keeping us in a type of emotional bondage. Once

the BPD KNOWS we're afraid they'll talk bad about us, POOF!, they've

got a weapon to threaten us with and keep us quiet!

Just about every poster here has a story to tell about how, after

they stood up to their BPD mom or dad, that mom or dad then went

around to try and rally support from the rest of the family by

talking bad about us. As long as we harbor fear of that, they've

got us by the neck. The only way we can be FREE is to finally say

ENOUGH!! to that emotional blackmail.

You should do what you feel comfortable doing -- and if that means

going back to that therapist, then I support you. But as for me? I

wouldn't go back there. He's obviously blinded by " obligation " to

parents -- no matter the cost to your integrity.

I'm sure he's not a bad guy -- he just doesn't have the right

mindset to deal with the baggage carried by us KOs. In my

experience with my therapist, she is incredibly good at it -- and

supports me living my own life, free of emotional blackmail at the

hands of my parents.

I think this therapist and you are not a match. If I may be so

bold -- KEEP LOOKING.

-Kyla

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Looking for last minute shopping deals?

Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

[Guest guest]

A second thought popped into my head after I sent my previous reply...

Perhaps offer your daughter an alternative to calling grandma? When she wants

to call she can...write grandma a letter, draw grandma a picture, etc. Even get

her a special notebook/stationary with a special pen or something that is

specifically for that purpose, put in a special place? That way she still feels

like she is reaching out to your mother, but your daughter is also still

protected from the direct drama. Just a thought.

Ninera

T B wrote:

That's a tough one, Karla.

Have you discussed any of it with your daughter? I'm thinking more a discussion

that just allows your daughter to process and express things, where you (and/or

your dh) just listen and validate (not give her advice, for instance).

In my opinion, your mother is using your daughter to get at you, and that is

hideous. How dare she traumatize a 9 year old child like that??? Since when is

your daughter the one to bear responsibility for any of her grandmother's

happiness? And how dare your mother put that upon her??? At some point, help

your daughter understand that grandma is using the word " need " instead of the

word " want. " Your mother does not NEED to see your daughter...and if she DOES

then that is unfair to your child to be depended on that way by an adult.

I think it's a tough line to draw...especially if the BPD parent was also one to

restrict your relationships with other relatives (I know mine was!). Of course

your daughter probably wants to see Grandma...she's been taught by grandma that

grandma can't be happy without her. Such an unfair burden!!! Grandma will live

and be happy even if they don't see each other. But you know both of them

best...and you know what your daughter can and cannot understand. Can she really

deal with the drama of your mother for a visit? Is there fallout that YOU want

to deal with? Or is your daughter capable of understanding on a simple level

that Grandma's brain does not work like most people...and that this makes

grandma say and do things that are not fair or nice?

Like I said, I think it's hard to draw the line...a line between " giving my

child something she really wants " and " making sure my child is fully protected. "

Perhaps there is a middle ground...another adult to act as buffer and who can

remove your daughter from the situation as soon as your mother acts up? But

honestly? In my opinion it's completely acceptable for you to cut off the

contact between the two of them. Your daughter is nine anyway...it's perfectly

acceptable to have a house rule that she has to have permission before using the

phone anyway. That way you can screen the calls she makes...and have an adult

not only listening in on her conversations with your mother (should you choose

to allow those to continue)...but have that adult ready to cut the call off when

your mother starts in.

She's nine...she has the right to be carefree, you know?

Ninera

Karla Hague wrote:

Good Morning Everyone,

Well, as some of you may recall from my posts yesterday, I mentioned how I

allowed my 9 yr old to call my mom after a few weeks of no contact, and how my

mom just cried and cried and it made my daughter emotional.

Well, yesterday evening my daughter called her again with out my husband or I

realizing it, before we knew it, she was on the phone with her,did not ask us

first. My mom did the same thing again and my daughter got all emotional again,

crying and asking us why she can not go over to see her. My mom kept saying to

her " I really need to see you " , (my husband decided to go listen on the other

phone).

I don't know what to do, my daughter is having a hard time understanding and I

am not sure if I should send my mom an email explaining to her she can not do

this to my children, or should I just put my foot down and not allow my kids to

contact her? I just don't want my daughter to feel like she is being punished.

I need and appreciate all of your advice.

Thank you,

Karla

Re: [WTOAdultChildren1MY FIRST THERAPY SESSION

Karla --

When I read your therapist's reasoning behind telling you to call

your mother right away ( " He just said that this can not continue and

that by not calling her i am letting her win in the sense that now

she has bad stuff to say about me. " ), my head just about exploded!

Sure, he's human and he's entitled to his opinion, but I think one

of the cornerstones of damage that our BPD parents did to us was the

thought that we needed to be afraid that the BPD would talk bad

about us, thereby keeping us in a type of emotional bondage. Once

the BPD KNOWS we're afraid they'll talk bad about us, POOF!, they've

got a weapon to threaten us with and keep us quiet!

Just about every poster here has a story to tell about how, after

they stood up to their BPD mom or dad, that mom or dad then went

around to try and rally support from the rest of the family by

talking bad about us. As long as we harbor fear of that, they've

got us by the neck. The only way we can be FREE is to finally say

ENOUGH!! to that emotional blackmail.

You should do what you feel comfortable doing -- and if that means

going back to that therapist, then I support you. But as for me? I

wouldn't go back there. He's obviously blinded by " obligation " to

parents -- no matter the cost to your integrity.

I'm sure he's not a bad guy -- he just doesn't have the right

mindset to deal with the baggage carried by us KOs. In my

experience with my therapist, she is incredibly good at it -- and

supports me living my own life, free of emotional blackmail at the

hands of my parents.

I think this therapist and you are not a match. If I may be so

bold -- KEEP LOOKING.

-Kyla

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Looking for last minute shopping deals?

Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

[Guest guest]

Good for you for taking a good look at this unfortunate situation --

on behalf of your daughter.

I say since she's 9 years old, you can step in and take control.

This is a form of emotional blackmail being perpetrated on a 9 year

old. Plain and simple. This should not be allowed to continue

unanswered. What a crappy thing for your mother to foist on your

little girl.

You can explain to her that Grandma has a problem and she cries a

lot, and that doesn't mean your daughter has done anything wrong,

NOR does it mean that you can change your grandmother. You know

what I'm trying to say: in 9 year old terms, explain that that this

isn't just your garden variety crying. That Grandma has a problem.

That you're changing how you deal with Grandma because she tends to

cry a lot and it's not fair to the people trying to talk to her.

Cold stark reality in 9 year old terms.

You could further explain that you would rather she didn't call your

mother without you clearing it first. And if she does decide to

call her, she needs to realize that she's going to get a lot of

crying and complaining on the other end. Ask your daughter if

that's what she wants when she calls grandma, because that's what

she's going to get.

Maybe boil that message down in terms your daughter can understand --

but you can DEFINITELY step into this. You don't have to stand

back while mom works her " magic " on your impressionable 9 year old.

You can get in the game, too. And I think a brief e-mail saying

that you'll not abide these kinds of phone calls with your daughter -

- your mother might listen. Then again, she might not, but that's

not your problem. At least you are giving her a warning that your

daughter isn't a pawn to be used for her game.

-Kyla

>

> Good Morning Everyone,

>

> Well, as some of you may recall from my posts yesterday, I

mentioned how I allowed my 9 yr old to call my mom after a few weeks

of no contact, and how my mom just cried and cried and it made my

daughter emotional.

>

> Well, yesterday evening my daughter called her again with out my

husband or I realizing it, before we knew it, she was on the phone

with her,did not ask us first. My mom did the same thing again and

my daughter got all emotional again, crying and asking us why she

can not go over to see her. My mom kept saying to her " I really

need to see you " , (my husband decided to go listen on the other

phone).

>

> I don't know what to do, my daughter is having a hard time

understanding and I am not sure if I should send my mom an email

explaining to her she can not do this to my children, or should I

just put my foot down and not allow my kids to contact her? I just

don't want my daughter to feel like she is being punished.

>

> I need and appreciate all of your advice.

>

> Thank you,

> Karla

>

>

> Re: [WTOAdultChildren1MY FIRST

THERAPY SESSION

>

> Karla --

>

> When I read your therapist's reasoning behind telling you to call

> your mother right away ( " He just said that this can not continue

and

> that by not calling her i am letting her win in the sense that now

> she has bad stuff to say about me. " ), my head just about exploded!

>

> Sure, he's human and he's entitled to his opinion, but I think one

> of the cornerstones of damage that our BPD parents did to us was

the

> thought that we needed to be afraid that the BPD would talk bad

> about us, thereby keeping us in a type of emotional bondage. Once

> the BPD KNOWS we're afraid they'll talk bad about us, POOF!,

they've

> got a weapon to threaten us with and keep us quiet!

>

> Just about every poster here has a story to tell about how, after

> they stood up to their BPD mom or dad, that mom or dad then went

> around to try and rally support from the rest of the family by

> talking bad about us. As long as we harbor fear of that, they've

> got us by the neck. The only way we can be FREE is to finally say

> ENOUGH!! to that emotional blackmail.

>

> You should do what you feel comfortable doing -- and if that means

> going back to that therapist, then I support you. But as for me? I

> wouldn't go back there. He's obviously blinded by " obligation " to

> parents -- no matter the cost to your integrity.

>

> I'm sure he's not a bad guy -- he just doesn't have the right

> mindset to deal with the baggage carried by us KOs. In my

> experience with my therapist, she is incredibly good at it -- and

> supports me living my own life, free of emotional blackmail at the

> hands of my parents.

>

> I think this therapist and you are not a match. If I may be so

> bold -- KEEP LOOKING.

>

> -Kyla

>

>

>

>

>

>

_____________________________________________________________________

_______________

> Looking for last minute shopping deals?

> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?

category=shopping

>

>

[Guest guest]

This is a great idea!

That way, your daughter will be able to express her love to her

grandmother, and your mother will receive those messages of love

without an opportunity to manipulate your daughter.

--

>

> A second thought popped into my head after I sent my previous reply...

>

> Perhaps offer your daughter an alternative to calling grandma?

When she wants to call she can...write grandma a letter, draw grandma a

picture, etc. Even get her a special notebook/stationary with a

special pen or something that is specifically for that purpose, put in

a special place? That way she still feels like she is reaching out to

your mother, but your daughter is also still protected from the direct

drama. Just a thought.

>

> Ninera

>

>

[Guest guest]

Brilliant! I love this idea! And I agree with Ninera, too.

-Kyla

> Good Morning Everyone,

>

> Well, as some of you may recall from my posts yesterday, I

mentioned how I allowed my 9 yr old to call my mom after a few weeks

of no contact, and how my mom just cried and cried and it made my

daughter emotional.

>

> Well, yesterday evening my daughter called her again with out my

husband or I realizing it, before we knew it, she was on the phone

with her,did not ask us first. My mom did the same thing again and

my daughter got all emotional again, crying and asking us why she

can not go over to see her. My mom kept saying to her " I really need

to see you " , (my husband decided to go listen on the other phone).

>

> I don't know what to do, my daughter is having a hard time

understanding and I am not sure if I should send my mom an email

explaining to her she can not do this to my children, or should I

just put my foot down and not allow my kids to contact her? I just

don't want my daughter to feel like she is being punished.

>

> I need and appreciate all of your advice.

>

> Thank you,

> Karla

>

>

> Re: [WTOAdultChildren1MY FIRST

THERAPY SESSION

>

> Karla --

>

> When I read your therapist's reasoning behind telling you to call

> your mother right away ( " He just said that this can not continue

and

> that by not calling her i am letting her win in the sense that now

> she has bad stuff to say about me. " ), my head just about exploded!

>

> Sure, he's human and he's entitled to his opinion, but I think one

> of the cornerstones of damage that our BPD parents did to us was

the

> thought that we needed to be afraid that the BPD would talk bad

> about us, thereby keeping us in a type of emotional bondage. Once

> the BPD KNOWS we're afraid they'll talk bad about us, POOF!,

they've

> got a weapon to threaten us with and keep us quiet!

>

> Just about every poster here has a story to tell about how, after

> they stood up to their BPD mom or dad, that mom or dad then went

> around to try and rally support from the rest of the family by

> talking bad about us. As long as we harbor fear of that, they've

> got us by the neck. The only way we can be FREE is to finally say

> ENOUGH!! to that emotional blackmail.

>

> You should do what you feel comfortable doing -- and if that means

> going back to that therapist, then I support you. But as for me? I

> wouldn't go back there. He's obviously blinded by " obligation " to

> parents -- no matter the cost to your integrity.

>

> I'm sure he's not a bad guy -- he just doesn't have the right

> mindset to deal with the baggage carried by us KOs. In my

> experience with my therapist, she is incredibly good at it -- and

> supports me living my own life, free of emotional blackmail at the

> hands of my parents.

>

> I think this therapist and you are not a match. If I may be so

> bold -- KEEP LOOKING.

>

> -Kyla

>

>

>

>

>

>

_____________________________________________________________________

_______________

> Looking for last minute shopping deals?

> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?

category=shopping

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Ninera:

Thank you for your advice. I really like that idea of having her write to her

instead of calling. Funny thing is we did buy a Valentines card for the kids to

fill out and I was going to have my husband drop it off today, but we decided

not to as my daughter wrote in it " I wish you still lived with us " , so we

decided not to send as we are afraid my mom will use this against us somehow

Thanks again for the advice and quick replies,

Karla

Re: [WTOAdultChildren1M Y FIRST THERAPY SESSION

Karla --

When I read your therapist's reasoning behind telling you to call

your mother right away ( " He just said that this can not continue and

that by not calling her i am letting her win in the sense that now

she has bad stuff to say about me. " ), my head just about exploded!

Sure, he's human and he's entitled to his opinion, but I think one

of the cornerstones of damage that our BPD parents did to us was the

thought that we needed to be afraid that the BPD would talk bad

about us, thereby keeping us in a type of emotional bondage. Once

the BPD KNOWS we're afraid they'll talk bad about us, POOF!, they've

got a weapon to threaten us with and keep us quiet!

Just about every poster here has a story to tell about how, after

they stood up to their BPD mom or dad, that mom or dad then went

around to try and rally support from the rest of the family by

talking bad about us. As long as we harbor fear of that, they've

got us by the neck. The only way we can be FREE is to finally say

ENOUGH!! to that emotional blackmail.

You should do what you feel comfortable doing -- and if that means

going back to that therapist, then I support you. But as for me? I

wouldn't go back there. He's obviously blinded by " obligation " to

parents -- no matter the cost to your integrity.

I'm sure he's not a bad guy -- he just doesn't have the right

mindset to deal with the baggage carried by us KOs. In my

experience with my therapist, she is incredibly good at it -- and

supports me living my own life, free of emotional blackmail at the

hands of my parents.

I think this therapist and you are not a match. If I may be so

bold -- KEEP LOOKING.

-Kyla

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

Looking for last minute shopping deals?

Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/

category. php?category= shopping

[Guest guest]

Hi Kyla,

Thanks once again for your wonderful advice as well.

I am still having a tough time deciding on if I should email my mom. I really

want to because I really want her to know this is unacceptable, but as you know,

I am having these issues with FEAR! I am scared of her response, I am scared of

what she will tell my family to me sending her such an email.. I wish I could

stop thinking this way, it makes me so mad to be so scared to stand up for

myself and my family!

I did like Ninera's advice too on having my daughter write her. I will have to

check on that as well though, as you will see my reply to Ninera about what my

daughter wrote in the Valentine's card I was going to have them send my mom.

Thanks again,

Karla

Re: [WTOAdultChildren1M Y FIRST

THERAPY SESSION

>

> Karla --

>

> When I read your therapist's reasoning behind telling you to call

> your mother right away ( " He just said that this can not continue

and

> that by not calling her i am letting her win in the sense that now

> she has bad stuff to say about me. " ), my head just about exploded!

>

> Sure, he's human and he's entitled to his opinion, but I think one

> of the cornerstones of damage that our BPD parents did to us was

the

> thought that we needed to be afraid that the BPD would talk bad

> about us, thereby keeping us in a type of emotional bondage. Once

> the BPD KNOWS we're afraid they'll talk bad about us, POOF!,

they've

> got a weapon to threaten us with and keep us quiet!

>

> Just about every poster here has a story to tell about how, after

> they stood up to their BPD mom or dad, that mom or dad then went

> around to try and rally support from the rest of the family by

> talking bad about us. As long as we harbor fear of that, they've

> got us by the neck. The only way we can be FREE is to finally say

> ENOUGH!! to that emotional blackmail.

>

> You should do what you feel comfortable doing -- and if that means

> going back to that therapist, then I support you. But as for me? I

> wouldn't go back there. He's obviously blinded by " obligation " to

> parents -- no matter the cost to your integrity.

>

> I'm sure he's not a bad guy -- he just doesn't have the right

> mindset to deal with the baggage carried by us KOs. In my

> experience with my therapist, she is incredibly good at it -- and

> supports me living my own life, free of emotional blackmail at the

> hands of my parents.

>

> I think this therapist and you are not a match. If I may be so

> bold -- KEEP LOOKING.

>

> -Kyla

>

>

>

>

>

>

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

____________ ___

> Looking for last minute shopping deals?

> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?

category=shopping

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, that fear is a tough one to overcome.

But we must!

Sometimes, what's best for our kids gives us the courage to face our

fears. What she says isn't yours to manage. What the rest of your

family says (when your mom tells them) isn't yours to manage. Keep

a tight focus on your daughter's welfare. That's all you need to

worry about.

I don't think you absolutely HAVE to send an e-mail -- you don't

have to put it in writing. You could teach your daughter that the

proper thing to do when someone has a crying breakdown, is to give

them the privacy to cry and not embarrass them further by staying on

the phone. Even if they protest that they want you to stay on the

line, the REALLY polite thing to do is to say goodbye and hang up.

You could be on the phone next time with your daughter, and teach

her to say " Well, grammie, looks like you're having a bad day. I'll

leave you alone so you can rest (or whatever) " . Bye. "

There's no law that says you have to announce it by e-mail. Having

something in writing always seems to give them ammunition to attack

us anyway, right?

But, yes, you do need to conquer that fear that the world will end

if you make a peep and let your voice be heard.

I'm happy to report I used to be terrified of my mother and father --

and now, I'm not as afraid, after standing my ground. I think they

respect that, too, even though they'd never admit it. I know my

mom's badmouthing me to whoever will listen, but I've just

decided " I don't care. " Those that love me, love me. Those that

don't and want to eat up what my mom says, that's their business. I

can't worry about it.

I've found that hiding from our fears just makes them worse. You'll

be OK -- you can do it.

-Kyla

[Guest guest]

You are so right Kyla, I should concentrate more on protecting my children

rather than my fear!

I think I will pass on the email for now, but will for sure continue to monitor

the calls, if I decide to allow them, and will stop the conversation if I

continue to hear this stuff from my mom. I am also going to sit down and talk

to my daughter.

I am starting to think this site is going to be my best therapist

Re: my 9 yr old

Yes, that fear is a tough one to overcome.

But we must!

Sometimes, what's best for our kids gives us the courage to face our

fears. What she says isn't yours to manage. What the rest of your

family says (when your mom tells them) isn't yours to manage. Keep

a tight focus on your daughter's welfare. That's all you need to

worry about.

I don't think you absolutely HAVE to send an e-mail -- you don't

have to put it in writing. You could teach your daughter that the

proper thing to do when someone has a crying breakdown, is to give

them the privacy to cry and not embarrass them further by staying on

the phone. Even if they protest that they want you to stay on the

line, the REALLY polite thing to do is to say goodbye and hang up.

You could be on the phone next time with your daughter, and teach

her to say " Well, grammie, looks like you're having a bad day. I'll

leave you alone so you can rest (or whatever) " . Bye. "

There's no law that says you have to announce it by e-mail. Having

something in writing always seems to give them ammunition to attack

us anyway, right?

But, yes, you do need to conquer that fear that the world will end

if you make a peep and let your voice be heard.

I'm happy to report I used to be terrified of my mother and father --

and now, I'm not as afraid, after standing my ground. I think they

respect that, too, even though they'd never admit it. I know my

mom's badmouthing me to whoever will listen, but I've just

decided " I don't care. " Those that love me, love me. Those that

don't and want to eat up what my mom says, that's their business. I

can't worry about it.

I've found that hiding from our fears just makes them worse. You'll

be OK -- you can do it.

-Kyla

__._,_..___

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[Guest guest]

You're not alone in this -- I gave my dad the kids' e-mail address at

summer camp, and he put a little " dig " in there about how they didn't

come see him on his birthday.

GRRRRRRRRR.....He got by with it that time, but I'm on alert for it

this time. The " dig " went right over my kids' head anyway....

They save all their mail when they get home from camp, and if he's

done it again this year, he's getting an e-mail from me.

-Kyla

[Guest guest]

Hey, Karla.

You've got some good questions.

My opinion is that it is best to communicate your boundary with your

mother. When I first set LC boundaries with my mom, I said, " I'm not

really interested in talking to you on the phone. But, if you want

to talk to the kids every couple of weeks, that is ok, as long as you

stay appropriate with them. I will listen to make sure that

happens. " She has done a good job on the phone. I do keep an ear on

the conversation, either staying on the line or putting it on

speaker, and she has not tried to manipulate them at all yet (my kids

are younger than yours, though). She did cry through the entire

dinner we had at a restaurant the next time they came to visit. I

know that the whole experience was emotionally overwhelming for her.

My kids didn't really notice much; but if she had said anything

manipulative to them to make them feel badly, I would have just told

her it was unacceptable and taken the kids home.

My point is that I think you do need to point out the unacceptable

behavior to your mother. I think she has crossed the line with your

daughter, who is old enough to experience empathy and to be

manipulated into feeling responsible. I recommend letting your

mother know that you want your daughter to get to have a relationship

with her grandmother, but that you feel it is important to protect

your daughter from manipulative behavior. You can acknowledge that

you understand why your mother might feel like crying, but that you

think it is not a problem to burden a nine-year-old with. Let her

know that you plan to monitor her phone conversations with your

daughter.

As far as talking to your daughter, I think it is best to be honest

with her and to acknowledge and validate what she is feeling. You

can say that you see how much she misses her grandmother, and that

that is ok. Tell her it is not her fault that grandma is sad, and

that even though grandma loves her very much and enjoys visiting with

her, that she can't make grandma feel better. Ask your daughter what

she is feeling, and calmly explain to her that the boundaries you are

setting are there because you love her and want her to have a safe

relationship with her grandmother.

" I wish you still lived with us. " What a sweet, honest sentiment.

An emotionally mature grandmother could read that and reply, " That is

so sweet, honey. I miss you, too. Change is hard, but it was time

for me to move. I still love you even if I am not right there, and I

am always happy to hear from you. " I think it was wise of you to

keep such an emotional statement out of the hands of a person with

BPD. We all know it would serve as ammunition and leave your

daughter feeling guilty instead of loved.

Maybe there is a way to explain this to your daughter, too, so that

you can teach her to communicate with her grandmother without feeling

censored. Like, " I understand you miss having grandma closer by.

You had some good times together. I hope you will always feel free

to talk about your feelings with me. It is ok to miss your

grandmother. Grandma is not a bad person, but she has a problem that

makes it really hard for her to understand how to take care of other

people's feelings. Sometimes when she feels sad or angry, she can be

really mean or try to make you feel like it is your fault. I am

concerned that Grandma is not a very safe person to share your

feelings with. "

I dunno, just brainstorming...

I love this board. It gives me so many opportunities to practice

setting boundaries and talking to my kids...since I am LC, the real-

life interactions with my parents are few and far between, so you

guys are really helping me grow and prepare during the interim =)

Let us know how things work out with this, Karla.

[Guest guest]

This is very sound advice. I am printing this one.

-Kyla

[Guest guest]

When he did that, what did you say to him?

I stopped confronting my mil on stuff like that years ago because she

would turn things around on me without acknowledgement of what I'd

said. Very frustrating. Instead I took on the role of censor; nothing

from her gets to my kids unless I pass it on to them. (Like the letter

she wrote to my daughter about how sad and lonely she was all by

herself. Now I wonder if I should have said something to her at the

time? Because I don't think that she realizes that I don't pass stuff

like that on. I wonder what she must think of my daughter's lack of

response to that pity party. Maybe that is why she didn't include her

when she invited my son and husband to her house for a visit back in

December. hmmmmm.)

--

>

> You're not alone in this -- I gave my dad the kids' e-mail address at

> summer camp, and he put a little " dig " in there about how they didn't

> come see him on his birthday.

>

> GRRRRRRRRR.....He got by with it that time, but I'm on alert for it

> this time. The " dig " went right over my kids' head anyway....

> They save all their mail when they get home from camp, and if he's

> done it again this year, he's getting an e-mail from me.

>

> -Kyla

>

[Guest guest]

Hey, --

Enough time had already passed that I let it go that time, but am on

alert for next time. I decided to bring it up would just stir up too

much dust and things were quiet, so I let it go.

I don't see or talk to them that much, and neither do my kids -- but

that could change. Now that I know they can be sneaky, I'm watching.

-Kyla

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thank you for the great advice as well. Wow, earlier today I convinced myself

not to send her an email, but I am starting to really think I should. Not only

from all the advice I have read today, but also just because it is bothering me

so much to just let it go with out letting her know how much it is bothering me.

My husband says it will be a waste of time as she won't get what I am saying,

but I don't think I care. I really think it will make me feel better just

knowing I let her know.

I am planning on sitting down with my daughter tonight. I want her to realize

she should not feel guilty for my mom being sad. It's so sad, because the first

few weeks after everything exploded over at my house and my mom moved out, my

daughter had a really hard time. Now the past two weeks she was doing great and

acting normal around the house again, and now, I thought her calling my mom was

a good idea, and now I feel like we are back to square one! I hope my talking

to her will help her.

Thanks again for your great advice.

Karla

Re: my 9 yr old

Hey, Karla.

You've got some good questions.

My opinion is that it is best to communicate your boundary with your

mother. When I first set LC boundaries with my mom, I said, " I'm not

really interested in talking to you on the phone. But, if you want

to talk to the kids every couple of weeks, that is ok, as long as you

stay appropriate with them. I will listen to make sure that

happens. " She has done a good job on the phone. I do keep an ear on

the conversation, either staying on the line or putting it on

speaker, and she has not tried to manipulate them at all yet (my kids

are younger than yours, though). She did cry through the entire

dinner we had at a restaurant the next time they came to visit. I

know that the whole experience was emotionally overwhelming for her.

My kids didn't really notice much; but if she had said anything

manipulative to them to make them feel badly, I would have just told

her it was unacceptable and taken the kids home.

My point is that I think you do need to point out the unacceptable

behavior to your mother. I think she has crossed the line with your

daughter, who is old enough to experience empathy and to be

manipulated into feeling responsible. I recommend letting your

mother know that you want your daughter to get to have a relationship

with her grandmother, but that you feel it is important to protect

your daughter from manipulative behavior. You can acknowledge that

you understand why your mother might feel like crying, but that you

think it is not a problem to burden a nine-year-old with. Let her

know that you plan to monitor her phone conversations with your

daughter.

As far as talking to your daughter, I think it is best to be honest

with her and to acknowledge and validate what she is feeling. You

can say that you see how much she misses her grandmother, and that

that is ok. Tell her it is not her fault that grandma is sad, and

that even though grandma loves her very much and enjoys visiting with

her, that she can't make grandma feel better. Ask your daughter what

she is feeling, and calmly explain to her that the boundaries you are

setting are there because you love her and want her to have a safe

relationship with her grandmother.

" I wish you still lived with us. " What a sweet, honest sentiment.

An emotionally mature grandmother could read that and reply, " That is

so sweet, honey. I miss you, too. Change is hard, but it was time

for me to move. I still love you even if I am not right there, and I

am always happy to hear from you. " I think it was wise of you to

keep such an emotional statement out of the hands of a person with

BPD. We all know it would serve as ammunition and leave your

daughter feeling guilty instead of loved.

Maybe there is a way to explain this to your daughter, too, so that

you can teach her to communicate with her grandmother without feeling

censored. Like, " I understand you miss having grandma closer by.

You had some good times together. I hope you will always feel free

to talk about your feelings with me. It is ok to miss your

grandmother. Grandma is not a bad person, but she has a problem that

makes it really hard for her to understand how to take care of other

people's feelings. Sometimes when she feels sad or angry, she can be

really mean or try to make you feel like it is your fault. I am

concerned that Grandma is not a very safe person to share your

feelings with. "

I dunno, just brainstorming. ..

I love this board. It gives me so many opportunities to practice

setting boundaries and talking to my kids...since I am LC, the real-

life interactions with my parents are few and far between, so you

guys are really helping me grow and prepare during the interim =)

Let us know how things work out with this, Karla.

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[Guest guest]

This behavior is just wrong, wrong, wrong, on so many levels. I was

used as a lay therapist for my mother growing up and I can look back

and see how that interfered with my development in some ways. For

one it gave me an overinflated sense of importance and over-

confidence in my problem-solving abilities. When I think about this

it makes sense why one of the characteristics of people that get

involved repeatedly with bpds is that we think we know what is best

in all situations, or something like that. This is emotional incest.

I do not have children but based on my own experience being mis-used

this way as a child what I would want is for these 'unloading

sessions' to stop and for the mother in law to be informed that she

can't continue to use children as therapists or emotional mid-wives.

It's wrong. And the only reason she does it is because she *knows*

that the child doesn't know how wrong it is. Of course on some level

it's appealing to the child because they get the sense of being

needed, being special, being 'so mature for their age'...these are

all the things that I felt growing up and it's interesting that

these are the same feelings that predators want to engender in

children...I guess it's because that is really predatory behavior

for the mother-in-law. Were this happening with my imaginary

children I would be very tempted to ask my M-I-L if she needs help

finding a qualified therapist.

[Guest guest]

The 'Surviving a Borderline Parent' book describes KOs as having 'old soul

eyes'. I thought this was a really interesting way to put it--indeed many of us

were lay therapists (I liked that term of yours!) from a young age and mothered

our nadas and friends alike.

Most of my friends from high school were deeply emotionally troubled. I was

often their only close friend and they were very clingy and quick to become

angry with me if they felt I was spending too much time with anyone else. I

took it as flattery and slipped into the listener, soother, back-scratcher role

easily. I started to grasp how unhealthy my family issues were by college and

many of the friends I chose there were rock solid, wonderful and healthy people.

To this day, I've lost a high school friend a year (on average) due to my own

growth and intolerance of histronic behavior.

It took a lot of healing for me to realize I couldn't 'fix' people and that my

perpetual instincts to do so were implanted there by nada. I was indeed an

involuntary emotional mid wife (another term I liked) for both my nada and fada

and spent much of my teens literally running from the upstairs bedroom to the

basement where they'd each be balled up and weeping hysterically, passing

messages to one another through me. Nada still only calls me in order to unload

her most recent set of paranoid fears and accusations (against step dad and her

friends) on me. Not only are we lay therapists to them, we're also garbage cans

they can spew their mental trash into in order to consistently reinvent and

reinforce their own reality.

mayalisa728 wrote:

This behavior is just wrong, wrong, wrong, on so many levels. I was

used as a lay therapist for my mother growing up and I can look back

and see how that interfered with my development in some ways. For

one it gave me an overinflated sense of importance and over-

confidence in my problem-solving abilities. When I think about this

it makes sense why one of the characteristics of people that get

involved repeatedly with bpds is that we think we know what is best

in all situations, or something like that. This is emotional incest.

I do not have children but based on my own experience being mis-used

this way as a child what I would want is for these 'unloading

sessions' to stop and for the mother in law to be informed that she

can't continue to use children as therapists or emotional mid-wives.

It's wrong. And the only reason she does it is because she *knows*

that the child doesn't know how wrong it is. Of course on some level

it's appealing to the child because they get the sense of being

needed, being special, being 'so mature for their age'...these are

all the things that I felt growing up and it's interesting that

these are the same feelings that predators want to engender in

children...I guess it's because that is really predatory behavior

for the mother-in-law. Were this happening with my imaginary

children I would be very tempted to ask my M-I-L if she needs help

finding a qualified therapist.

---------------------------------

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Guest guest]

Ok, I just got done sending the email to my mother. Wow, that was exhausting

mentally Now will come the stress of waiting to see if she replies or says

something to the rest of my family.

In all honesty, I do feel better that I sent it, I feel courageous

Re: my 9 yr old

This behavior is just wrong, wrong, wrong, on so many levels. I was

used as a lay therapist for my mother growing up and I can look back

and see how that interfered with my development in some ways. For

one it gave me an overinflated sense of importance and over-

confidence in my problem-solving abilities. When I think about this

it makes sense why one of the characteristics of people that get

involved repeatedly with bpds is that we think we know what is best

in all situations, or something like that. This is emotional incest.

I do not have children but based on my own experience being mis-used

this way as a child what I would want is for these 'unloading

sessions' to stop and for the mother in law to be informed that she

can't continue to use children as therapists or emotional mid-wives.

It's wrong. And the only reason she does it is because she *knows*

that the child doesn't know how wrong it is. Of course on some level

it's appealing to the child because they get the sense of being

needed, being special, being 'so mature for their age'...these are

all the things that I felt growing up and it's interesting that

these are the same feelings that predators want to engender in

children...I guess it's because that is really predatory behavior

for the mother-in-law. Were this happening with my imaginary

children I would be very tempted to ask my M-I-L if she needs help

finding a qualified therapist.

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[Guest guest]

Karla...

Why not type up the email, and then save it to send

later? That would give you the release of writing it,

as well as the option to give yourself a few more days

to really mull it over and make a decision you're

really sure of.

ninera

--- Karla Hague wrote:

> Hi ,

>

> Thank you for the great advice as well. Wow,

> earlier today I convinced myself not to send her an

> email, but I am starting to really think I should.

> Not only from all the advice I have read today, but

> also just because it is bothering me so much to just

> let it go with out letting her know how much it is

> bothering me. My husband says it will be a waste of

> time as she won't get what I am saying, but I don't

> think I care. I really think it will make me feel

> better just knowing I let her know.

>

> I am planning on sitting down with my daughter

> tonight. I want her to realize she should not feel

> guilty for my mom being sad. It's so sad, because

> the first few weeks after everything exploded over

> at my house and my mom moved out, my daughter had a

> really hard time. Now the past two weeks she was

> doing great and acting normal around the house

> again, and now, I thought her calling my mom was a

> good idea, and now I feel like we are back to square

> one! I hope my talking to her will help her.

>

> Thanks again for your great advice.

>

> Karla

>

>

> Re: my 9 yr old

>

> Hey, Karla.

>

> You've got some good questions.

>

> My opinion is that it is best to communicate your

> boundary with your

> mother. When I first set LC boundaries with my mom,

> I said, " I'm not

> really interested in talking to you on the phone.

> But, if you want

> to talk to the kids every couple of weeks, that is

> ok, as long as you

> stay appropriate with them. I will listen to make

> sure that

> happens. " She has done a good job on the phone. I do

> keep an ear on

> the conversation, either staying on the line or

> putting it on

> speaker, and she has not tried to manipulate them at

> all yet (my kids

> are younger than yours, though). She did cry through

> the entire

> dinner we had at a restaurant the next time they

> came to visit. I

> know that the whole experience was emotionally

> overwhelming for her.

> My kids didn't really notice much; but if she had

> said anything

> manipulative to them to make them feel badly, I

> would have just told

> her it was unacceptable and taken the kids home.

>

> My point is that I think you do need to point out

> the unacceptable

> behavior to your mother. I think she has crossed the

> line with your

> daughter, who is old enough to experience empathy

> and to be

> manipulated into feeling responsible. I recommend

> letting your

> mother know that you want your daughter to get to

> have a relationship

> with her grandmother, but that you feel it is

> important to protect

> your daughter from manipulative behavior. You can

> acknowledge that

> you understand why your mother might feel like

> crying, but that you

> think it is not a problem to burden a nine-year-old

> with. Let her

> know that you plan to monitor her phone

> conversations with your

> daughter.

>

> As far as talking to your daughter, I think it is

> best to be honest

> with her and to acknowledge and validate what she is

> feeling. You

> can say that you see how much she misses her

> grandmother, and that

> that is ok. Tell her it is not her fault that

> grandma is sad, and

> that even though grandma loves her very much and

> enjoys visiting with

> her, that she can't make grandma feel better. Ask

> your daughter what

> she is feeling, and calmly explain to her that the

> boundaries you are

> setting are there because you love her and want her

> to have a safe

> relationship with her grandmother.

>

> " I wish you still lived with us. " What a sweet,

> honest sentiment.

> An emotionally mature grandmother could read that

> and reply, " That is

> so sweet, honey. I miss you, too. Change is hard,

> but it was time

> for me to move. I still love you even if I am not

> right there, and I

> am always happy to hear from you. " I think it was

> wise of you to

> keep such an emotional statement out of the hands of

> a person with

> BPD. We all know it would serve as ammunition and

> leave your

> daughter feeling guilty instead of loved.

>

> Maybe there is a way to explain this to your

> daughter, too, so that

> you can teach her to communicate with her

> grandmother without feeling

> censored. Like, " I understand you miss having

> grandma closer by.

> You had some good times together. I hope you will

> always feel free

> to talk about your feelings with me. It is ok to

> miss your

> grandmother. Grandma is not a bad person, but she

> has a problem that

> makes it really hard for her to understand how to

> take care of other

> people's feelings. Sometimes when she feels sad or

> angry, she can be

> really mean or try to make you feel like it is your

> fault. I am

> concerned that Grandma is not a very safe person to

> share your

> feelings with. "

>

> I dunno, just brainstorming. ..

>

> I love this board. It gives me so many opportunities

> to practice

> setting boundaries and talking to my kids...since I

> am LC, the real-

> life interactions with my parents are few and far

> between, so you

> guys are really helping me grow and prepare during

> the interim =)

>

> Let us know how things work out with this, Karla.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for

> help at @.... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT

> CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, "

> call 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We

> also refer to “Understanding the Borderline Mother”

> (Lawson) and “Surviving the Borderline Parent,”

> (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome

> to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online

> Community and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

>

[Guest guest]

Karla-

Good luck with the talk with your daughter...it is tough to explain

to kids. I have a 9 year old and a 12 year old. Both are aware of

what it wrong with their grandmother as things have happened where I

had no choice but to tell them about it. Before I knew what was

wrong, my NADA did babysat for me when my daughters were younger. I

found out after the fact all the crazy things she did...my girls

didn't think I would believe them if they told me because " Nana is a

grown-up. " (Although we know she doesn't act like one!) I will say

it has been harder for my 9 year old to grasp than the 12 year old.

But Karla's advice was spot on...acknowledge how your daughter is

feeling, but make her understand that her grandma SHOULD NOT be

making her feel guilty.

As for whether or not you NADA " gets it " when you set your

boundaries...it doesn't really matter that much. You need to

establish where you stand and then act accordingly. My therapist

pointed out to me that when dealing with a person with BPD, the

boundaries are less about warning the BPD what you will and won't

tolerate, but rather are more for you in deciding what behavior your

will or will not tolerate. That way you can somewhat decide in

advance your course of action and more readily allow you to remove

yourself from the situation when your boundaries are violated.

Take care-

>

> Hi ,

>

> Thank you for the great advice as well. Wow, earlier today I

convinced myself not to send her an email, but I am starting to

really think I should. Not only from all the advice I have read

today, but also just because it is bothering me so much to just let

it go with out letting her know how much it is bothering me. My

husband says it will be a waste of time as she won't get what I am

saying, but I don't think I care. I really think it will make me

feel better just knowing I let her know.

>

> I am planning on sitting down with my daughter tonight. I want her

to realize she should not feel guilty for my mom being sad. It's so

sad, because the first few weeks after everything exploded over at my

house and my mom moved out, my daughter had a really hard time. Now

the past two weeks she was doing great and acting normal around the

house again, and now, I thought her calling my mom was a good idea,

and now I feel like we are back to square one! I hope my talking to

her will help her.

>

> Thanks again for your great advice.

>

> Karla

>

[Guest guest]

jjfan - you wrote:

the boundaries are less about warning the BPD what you will and won't

tolerate, but rather are more for you in deciding what behavior your

will or will not tolerate. That way you can somewhat decide in

advance your course of action and more readily allow you to remove

yourself from the situation when your boundaries are violated

This is so true - and it occurs to me that this is what was setting me up for

failure anytime I tried to establish boundaries with my nada. I was expecting

her to grasp what I was saying and heed the warning. I realize now, it was

unlikely she would ever hear what I was saying, so it really should have been

more about me all along, and what my rules were. Thank you for sharing this.

Re: my 9 yr old

Karla-

Good luck with the talk with your daughter...it is tough to explain

to kids. I have a 9 year old and a 12 year old. Both are aware of

what it wrong with their grandmother as things have happened where I

had no choice but to tell them about it. Before I knew what was

wrong, my NADA did babysat for me when my daughters were younger. I

found out after the fact all the crazy things she did...my girls

didn't think I would believe them if they told me because " Nana is a

grown-up. " (Although we know she doesn't act like one!) I will say

it has been harder for my 9 year old to grasp than the 12 year old.

But Karla's advice was spot on...acknowledge how your daughter is

feeling, but make her understand that her grandma SHOULD NOT be

making her feel guilty.

As for whether or not you NADA " gets it " when you set your

boundaries.. .it doesn't really matter that much. You need to

establish where you stand and then act accordingly. My therapist

pointed out to me that when dealing with a person with BPD, the

boundaries are less about warning the BPD what you will and won't

tolerate, but rather are more for you in deciding what behavior your

will or will not tolerate. That way you can somewhat decide in

advance your course of action and more readily allow you to remove

yourself from the situation when your boundaries are violated.

Take care-

>

> Hi ,

>

> Thank you for the great advice as well. Wow, earlier today I

convinced myself not to send her an email, but I am starting to

really think I should. Not only from all the advice I have read

today, but also just because it is bothering me so much to just let

it go with out letting her know how much it is bothering me. My

husband says it will be a waste of time as she won't get what I am

saying, but I don't think I care. I really think it will make me

feel better just knowing I let her know.

>

> I am planning on sitting down with my daughter tonight. I want her

to realize she should not feel guilty for my mom being sad.. It's so

sad, because the first few weeks after everything exploded over at my

house and my mom moved out, my daughter had a really hard time. Now

the past two weeks she was doing great and acting normal around the

house again, and now, I thought her calling my mom was a good idea,

and now I feel like we are back to square one! I hope my talking to

her will help her.

>

> Thanks again for your great advice.

>

> Karla

>

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[Guest guest]

Good for you. I have a hard time waiting for the response too.

I try to calm myself by remembering that I can't control her reaction,

I can only control my actions.

It is still hard for me though. I have a feeling that others on this

board will have better advice for you.

>

> Ok, I just got done sending the email to my mother. Wow, that was

exhausting mentally Now will come the stress of waiting to see if

she replies or says something to the rest of my family.

>

> In all honesty, I do feel better that I sent it, I feel courageous

>

[Guest guest]

Good job!

I would love to share what we talked about in my last group session

that you might benefit from at this point:

So many of us who were taught not to speak up -- thereby making us

afraid to speak up in life -- need to learn to both speak up AND to

let the chips fall without having a fit of nerves.

I spoke up the other day during a spirited discussion in my book

club. I was shaking inside -- I was strongly disagreeing with

someone (something new for me!). Later, when we were all getting up

to go home, that little voice inside me told me to apologize for

getting everyone all riled up! For the first time, I IGNORED THAT

VOICE. It was the old voice from my childhood that told me I wasn't

entitled to an opinion or to speak my mind. My therapist told me we

can rewrite or re-record over that voice with a NEW voice. You're

finding your new voice.

You have spoken your mind. GOOD!! You have taken steps to stop

emotional blackmail of your child. GOOD!! Take a deep breath and

steel yourself not to be afraid of what comes next. You don't have

to hold the world up anymore and you have NOTHING to apologize for

or be ashamed of. So tell the old fear to take a hike!! Let the

chips fall. They're not ALL yours to pick up!

Hang in there and tell yourself you're sick of being afraid of your

mother's reactions to things.

-Kyla

[Guest guest]

<<To this day, I've lost a high school friend a year (on average)

due to my own growth and intolerance of histronic behavior....It

took a lot of healing for me to realize I couldn't 'fix' people and

that my perpetual instincts to do so were implanted there by nada.>>

Oh, how I can relate!

I am waking up to the fact that I will settle for scraps from

friendships -- and I'm sick of it and starting to change it.

Case in point: Last labor day, I FINALLY got my " best " friend of 20

years to come stay with us at our Lakehouse. I had been inviting

her since we bought it 18 months earlier. (That in itself was a bit

of a red flag that I ignored.)

She, her husband and their kids (who match up with my kids really

well -- they all have a great time together) showed up and she

immediately starts on her " exit story " ......Long story short, they

stayed 24 hours, and I was left standing there as they pulled out of

the driveway thinking " What the hell was that? "

My friend has such anxiety that she has developed Obsessive-

Compulsive Personality Disorder. She's addicted to order and

tasking. She fits all but one of the diagnostic criteria.

She's cancelled 2 other things we had planned to do together -- and

after the last cancellation, she said in an apologetic e-mail " My

mom is always telling me 'friendship is a luxury'. She didn't even

realize what a hurtful thing that is to say.

She's so caught up in tasking, etc. and she has lots of friends, old

and new, but I've noticed that these friendships are conducted at

HER direction, and interactions are ALWAYS at her house, so she can

fold laundry or work on household projects while you follow her

around like a puppy.

After 25 years of close friendship, I decided I was sick of being

treated that way. As she was packing to leave the lake last Labor

Day, I summoned the courage to state my feelings. I said " I had no

idea you guys were only going to stay 24 hours -- I'm disappointed

you're leaving. " You know what my " best friend " said? She shrugged

her shoulders and changed the subject by saying " Look at that boat

over there! "

She's in so deep with this disorder, I truly don't think anything

would have been gained by some big announcement that I was leaving

the friendship. I just politely declined her 2 invitations to come

have coffee and catch up (at HER HOUSE, of course), and I could tell

she felt guilty at how she left the lake. But, I was polite in my

declines, claimed thanks, but I couldn't make it and let it go.

She's stopped inviting me over and we've both gone on with our

lives. I think on some level, she KNOWS that she's being a terrible

friend, but any spotlight on her behavior would threaten her tasking

and obsessing about control, and she's not ABOUT to figure out how

to give that up -- such is its grip on her.

-Kyla

> This behavior is just wrong, wrong, wrong, on so many

levels. I was

> used as a lay therapist for my mother growing up and I can look

back

> and see how that interfered with my development in some ways. For

> one it gave me an overinflated sense of importance and over-

> confidence in my problem-solving abilities. When I think about

this

> it makes sense why one of the characteristics of people that get

> involved repeatedly with bpds is that we think we know what is

best

> in all situations, or something like that. This is emotional

incest.

> I do not have children but based on my own experience being mis-

used

> this way as a child what I would want is for these 'unloading

> sessions' to stop and for the mother in law to be informed that

she

> can't continue to use children as therapists or emotional mid-

wives.

> It's wrong. And the only reason she does it is because she *knows*

> that the child doesn't know how wrong it is. Of course on some

level

> it's appealing to the child because they get the sense of being

> needed, being special, being 'so mature for their age'...these are

> all the things that I felt growing up and it's interesting that

> these are the same feelings that predators want to engender in

> children...I guess it's because that is really predatory behavior

> for the mother-in-law. Were this happening with my imaginary

> children I would be very tempted to ask my M-I-L if she needs help

> finding a qualified therapist.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

>

>

[Guest guest]

So interesting that you used the phrase garbage can. The last time I talked to

my sister (4 years ago), I told her " I'm not going to be nada's garbage can

anymore. " That was really my role for my nada - she threw all her vitroile and

anger into me.

Re: Re: my 9 yr old

The 'Surviving a Borderline Parent' book describes KOs as having 'old soul

eyes'. I thought this was a really interesting way to put it--indeed many of us

were lay therapists (I liked that term of yours!) from a young age and mothered

our nadas and friends alike.

Most of my friends from high school were deeply emotionally troubled. I was

often their only close friend and they were very clingy and quick to become

angry with me if they felt I was spending too much time with anyone else. I took

it as flattery and slipped into the listener, soother, back-scratcher role

easily. I started to grasp how unhealthy my family issues were by college and

many of the friends I chose there were rock solid, wonderful and healthy people.

To this day, I've lost a high school friend a year (on average) due to my own

growth and intolerance of histronic behavior.

It took a lot of healing for me to realize I couldn't 'fix' people and that my

perpetual instincts to do so were implanted there by nada. I was indeed an

involuntary emotional mid wife (another term I liked) for both my nada and fada

and spent much of my teens literally running from the upstairs bedroom to the

basement where they'd each be balled up and weeping hysterically, passing

messages to one another through me. Nada still only calls me in order to unload

her most recent set of paranoid fears and accusations (against step dad and her

friends) on me. Not only are we lay therapists to them, we're also garbage cans

they can spew their mental trash into in order to consistently reinvent and

reinforce their own reality.

mayalisa728 <mayalisa728@ yahoo.com> wrote:

This behavior is just wrong, wrong, wrong, on so many levels. I was

used as a lay therapist for my mother growing up and I can look back

and see how that interfered with my development in some ways. For

one it gave me an overinflated sense of importance and over-

confidence in my problem-solving abilities. When I think about this

it makes sense why one of the characteristics of people that get

involved repeatedly with bpds is that we think we know what is best

in all situations, or something like that. This is emotional incest.

I do not have children but based on my own experience being mis-used

this way as a child what I would want is for these 'unloading

sessions' to stop and for the mother in law to be informed that she

can't continue to use children as therapists or emotional mid-wives.

It's wrong. And the only reason she does it is because she *knows*

that the child doesn't know how wrong it is. Of course on some level

it's appealing to the child because they get the sense of being

needed, being special, being 'so mature for their age'...these are

all the things that I felt growing up and it's interesting that

these are the same feelings that predators want to engender in

children...I guess it's because that is really predatory behavior

for the mother-in-law. Were this happening with my imaginary

children I would be very tempted to ask my M-I-L if she needs help

finding a qualified therapist.

------------ --------- --------- ---

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