Re: LC/NC: where to draw the line

December 13, 2007

Any of the above, qwerty -- either choice looks workable. If you have

a close friend who would be willing to help you out and get the stuff,

then ask. If you don't, then think about what's in those boxes -- do

you REALLY need anything in there? I always go back to those " clean

the clutter " shows that say " If you have the memory, you don't need

the stuff " and " If you've been living without it while it's in a box,

you don't need it. " .... " If it doesn't reflect your life now and your

current reality, you don't need it. " ......

We have some old stuff from my husband's childhood, and it's put away

and we NEVER think about it. Never get it out to look at it. It's

just stuff.

See if your mom drops the subject -- she probably will if she doesn't

detect it's all that important to you. Then, when you get back to the

States, it might still be there.

-Kyla

December 13, 2007

Oh, the phone crap! How well I know this one!

My mom likes to turn on the " feel sorry for me " crying machine --

and I bulldoze right over it.

As for your mom ignoring your announcement that you have to go --

when she tries to yank away that boundary by saying " Just one more

thing " .....you have to stop it right there. Nip it in the bud by

saying " Next time -- gotta run. Bye, Mom. " CLICK.

When the phone call starts to make your irritation level raise, you

have the right to bring it to a close. And you don't have to

justify it with your hypoglycemia -- I've gotten off the phone

simply because I want my full 1 hour nap! LOL! It's true! I've

gotten off the phone because I want to sit down and eat peanuts and

watch a TV show. I don't justify it to the person on the other end -

- they can just assume I have other things going on in my life.

Which is true of all of us!

And if she starts " rampaging and saying nasty things " , you REALLY

have to go. I cut my mom off at the quick when she starts that

crap. Once, I was lending a sympathetic ear to her complaints about

taking care of her mother....(before I wised up to this whole BPD

thing), and I said " I know " ...and, ever the martyr, she snapped " Oh,

no you DON'T!! " . Suddenly, the phone call took a turn -- I was

being punished for stepping on an eggshell. I ended the call right

then. I said " Well, it sounds like you need a good cry -- I'll

leave you to it. Bye, Mom. " CLICK. She got the message loud and

clear, and I drew the line at being treated that way right then and

there. Cut it off at the quick.

You aren't obligated to put up with any more crappy phone calls than

you WANT to endure. I personally keep those times to a bare

minimum, because it can't help but affect me, and trickle down to

the other people I deal with in my life. I cut the ick out when I

find it. Whether it's my mom or someone else. Every day is just

too precious to waste being the audience to someone who wants to

dumpt their negativity and dysfunction onto our laps. I don't want

to spend one minute that way.

-Kyla

December 13, 2007

Kyla,

Thanks for the advice. I think in my haste and emotional state, I may

not have been clear about the situation. My mom lives abroad, my

husband and I are in the states. I have been considering going NC with

her, but I would like my boxes back. My mom hasn't mentioned them at

all, nor have I. But I realize that if I do go NC, I may not get my

stuff back. So I'd like to try and get my stuff out of her clutches

before I decide to do anything else. Either that, or decide I don't

care about never seeing my stuff again. I kind of do, though. It's

mainly some nice pots that I really could use (one of them was my

dad's) and some of our books. The books can be replaced, but there are

a few that I want to keep just for sentimental reasons.

Aside from that, I'm trying to figure out whether NC is the answer for

me. It seems to me that despite my efforts at minimizing hassle with

my nada, I am still worn down, annoyed, angered, hurt by her behavior

to me on the phone. There aren't that many huge blow ups, but the

little things linger and sting long afterwards. I guess what I'm

asking is at what point do people decide they don't want to take this

anymore? When/how do they decide to go NC? Or is it my reaction to her

that I need to adjust? I feel like I've done a lot of adjusting, yet

still encounter more negativity than I'm willing to deal with. Does

this mean I need to adjust more or just quit talking to her altogether?

qwerty

>

> Any of the above, qwerty -- either choice looks workable. If you have

> a close friend who would be willing to help you out and get the stuff,

> then ask. If you don't, then think about what's in those boxes -- do

> you REALLY need anything in there? I always go back to those " clean

> the clutter " shows that say " If you have the memory, you don't need

> the stuff " and " If you've been living without it while it's in a box,

> you don't need it. " .... " If it doesn't reflect your life now and your

> current reality, you don't need it. " ......

>

> We have some old stuff from my husband's childhood, and it's put away

> and we NEVER think about it. Never get it out to look at it. It's

> just stuff.

>

> See if your mom drops the subject -- she probably will if she doesn't

> detect it's all that important to you. Then, when you get back to the

> States, it might still be there.

>

> -Kyla

>

December 13, 2007

>

> As for your mom ignoring your announcement that you have to go --

> when she tries to yank away that boundary by saying " Just one more

> thing " .....you have to stop it right there. Nip it in the bud by

> saying " Next time -- gotta run. Bye, Mom. " CLICK.

>

> When the phone call starts to make your irritation level raise, you

> have the right to bring it to a close. And you don't have to

> justify it with your hypoglycemia -- I've gotten off the phone

> simply because I want my full 1 hour nap! LOL! It's true! I've

> gotten off the phone because I want to sit down and eat peanuts and

> watch a TV show. I don't justify it to the person on the other end

Good point. But how do I deal with the thing where she completely

disregards something I've just said? Like when I asked about my

niece's medical condition and she disregarded me because she hadn't

heard about it? That's something that ostensibly seems innocuous but

it bothers me a lot. It actually bothers me more than that stupid stay

a while longer trick. How do I deal with that?

qwerty

December 13, 2007

If nada is in monologue mode on the phone, you can't get her

attention even YELLING " hold on " or " I have to go " or whatever. One

time I decided to continue trying to get a word in edgewise,

repeating " MOM! HOLD ON! " yelling more & more loudly - just to see

how long it would take for her to stop. I said her name in excess of

50 times! It was as if she was utterly unable to hear. We've brought

this to her attention in person, to make sure she DOES hear us, a

number of times and she responds " Oh, do I do that? " with a quizzical

tone and a weird glimmer in her eye. AND THEN GOES RIGHT ON

TALKING!

Even if she does hear you, it would take at least 2 attempts to get

her off the phone, sometimes as much as 1/2 hour and 4 or more

attempts. I thought it was fear of abandonment driving that behavior

rather than simple disregard my needs, but who knows? She says the

problem is I'm impatient, but after I've said " I NEED TO GO " several

times, what's to be patient about?!

Growing up, my father did not permit calls from home to his workplace

during the day at all. I get it now.

Now about those boxes...What would it cost to replace the items being

stored, or are they irreplaceable? Maybe look at shipping cost vs.

replacement. See if the difference between the two is worth dealing

with her in this situation.

As much as you don't want to put someone else in the middle, that may

be your best option if you're not willing to lose the contents

entirely. If nada did it, I think you're right, the task would get

screwed up accidentally on purpose. (It would with mine for sure.)

Maybe the unpleasantness of dealing with this could be the " last

hurrah " before going NC?

I feel weird advocating NC, but it's difficult for me to imagine how

LC works - there is no such thing as a respected boundary in my

nada's world, and like you, I have no taste for doling out

consequences & strategies in ANY relationship, least of all one where

my needs are never met and unreasonable demands are constantly placed

on me - even if I choose to ignore them.

December 13, 2007

I think a good measurement of when to withdraw, is when it starts

wreaking havoc with you physically and mentally. If it causes

negativity to linger long after the phone call has ended, you can

ask yourself " Do I want that in my life? "

Most of us on this board are working toward undoing what our parents

did to us during childhood, and one of those things is learning to

speak up when something isn't working for you anymore. Speaking up

when you don't like something, and exercising your perogative to not

participate in that thing anymore, when possible.

Obviously, there are things that fall into " I don't have a choice "

category: a disabled child or spouse, etc. But, in my opinion,

your nada's phone calls are not in that category. Nowhere is it

written that you have to endure them simply because she's your

mother. You're grown now -- you can refashion a relationship that

works for you, or if she won't respect you enough to cooperate with

that, then no relationship at all. It's your choice and it's your

call -- if you don't like how she conducts herself when talking to

you, you could try practicing some phrases that draw boundaries and

see what she does.

She already ignores you when you have to go -- that's one red flag.

(I have a friend that will keep talking even when you " have to go " --

so I just let a couple of sentences go, then I say " Gotta go. Talk

to you later. Bye " And she lets me go.

Make some room for yourself in this world -- if you don't like how

you feel after a phone call with your nada -- make less phone calls

to her, make them shorter......redirect the conversation (that's

what I do when my mom starts a crying jag), etc.

Find what works -- take control. If none of that works, then I

would make those phone calls very rare.

As for your stuff -- time will tell if you really need the stuff,

can have a friend get it (but then they'd have to store it), if it's

worth spending $1,000 to get, or if you can wait until you can get

back to your mom's house to pick it up.

-Kyla

> >

> > Any of the above, qwerty -- either choice looks workable. If

you have

> > a close friend who would be willing to help you out and get the

stuff,

> > then ask. If you don't, then think about what's in those boxes -

- do

> > you REALLY need anything in there? I always go back to

those " clean

> > the clutter " shows that say " If you have the memory, you don't

need

> > the stuff " and " If you've been living without it while it's in a

box,

> > you don't need it. " .... " If it doesn't reflect your life now and

your

> > current reality, you don't need it. " ......

> >

> > We have some old stuff from my husband's childhood, and it's put

away

> > and we NEVER think about it. Never get it out to look at it.

It's

> > just stuff.

> >

> > See if your mom drops the subject -- she probably will if she

doesn't

> > detect it's all that important to you. Then, when you get back

to the

> > States, it might still be there.

> >

> > -Kyla

> >

>

December 13, 2007

I encountered this once regarding a sick nephew, her grandson. Nada

had been visiting bro before the boy was diagnosed; after diagnosis,

bro just so happened to call me before her. She didn't respond when I

told her what was wrong, and didn't respond again when I told her how

long it would take for him to recover, etc. When I confronted her on

it, her final response was: OKAY, I heard you! At which point she

moved onto Seinfeld, how senile everyone is (except her), and so on.

The end.

You can't make someone give a shit.

December 13, 2007

" If nada is in monologue mode on the phone, you can't get her

attention even YELLING " hold on " or " I have to go " or whatever. One

time I decided to continue trying to get a word in edgewise,

repeating " MOM! HOLD ON! " yelling more & more loudly - just to see

how long it would take for her to stop. "

Yikes, obnoxious and aggressive! It's obvious you have no choice

but to hang up. I'd say her name a couple of times -- give her a

couple of chances out of common courtesy -- then " CLICK " . When she

brings it to your attention, say " Oh, did I do that? I know I told

you at least twice I had to go...... " ha ha

-Kyla

>

> If nada is in monologue mode on the phone, you can't get her

> attention even YELLING " hold on " or " I have to go " or whatever.

One

> time I decided to continue trying to get a word in edgewise,

> repeating " MOM! HOLD ON! " yelling more & more loudly - just to see

> how long it would take for her to stop. I said her name in excess

of

> 50 times! It was as if she was utterly unable to hear. We've

brought

> this to her attention in person, to make sure she DOES hear us, a

> number of times and she responds " Oh, do I do that? " with a

quizzical

> tone and a weird glimmer in her eye. AND THEN GOES RIGHT ON

> TALKING!

>

> Even if she does hear you, it would take at least 2 attempts to

get

> her off the phone, sometimes as much as 1/2 hour and 4 or more

> attempts. I thought it was fear of abandonment driving that

behavior

> rather than simple disregard my needs, but who knows? She says

the

> problem is I'm impatient, but after I've said " I NEED TO GO "

several

> times, what's to be patient about?!

>

> Growing up, my father did not permit calls from home to his

workplace

> during the day at all. I get it now.

>

> Now about those boxes...What would it cost to replace the items

being

> stored, or are they irreplaceable? Maybe look at shipping cost

vs.

> replacement. See if the difference between the two is worth

dealing

> with her in this situation.

>

> As much as you don't want to put someone else in the middle, that

may

> be your best option if you're not willing to lose the contents

> entirely. If nada did it, I think you're right, the task would

get

> screwed up accidentally on purpose. (It would with mine for

sure.)

> Maybe the unpleasantness of dealing with this could be the " last

> hurrah " before going NC?

>

> I feel weird advocating NC, but it's difficult for me to imagine

how

> LC works - there is no such thing as a respected boundary in my

> nada's world, and like you, I have no taste for doling out

> consequences & strategies in ANY relationship, least of all one

where

> my needs are never met and unreasonable demands are constantly

placed

> on me - even if I choose to ignore them.

>

December 13, 2007

There's nothing you can do about how someone decides to behave.

She's chosen to handle it that way and most likely won't change.

Might as well accept that she's that way and let it go. Otherwise,

you'll end up perpetually frustrated over something you have no

control over. You can say to yourself " Well, obviously she's not

going to answer my question. " and give up the idea that you're going

to get the information from her. Resolve to get it from someone

else.

-Kyla

> >

> > As for your mom ignoring your announcement that you have to go --

> > when she tries to yank away that boundary by saying " Just one

more

> > thing " .....you have to stop it right there. Nip it in the bud

by

> > saying " Next time -- gotta run. Bye, Mom. " CLICK.

> >

> > When the phone call starts to make your irritation level raise,

you

> > have the right to bring it to a close. And you don't have to

> > justify it with your hypoglycemia -- I've gotten off the phone

> > simply because I want my full 1 hour nap! LOL! It's true!

I've

> > gotten off the phone because I want to sit down and eat peanuts

and

> > watch a TV show. I don't justify it to the person on the other

end

>

> Good point. But how do I deal with the thing where she completely

> disregards something I've just said? Like when I asked about my

> niece's medical condition and she disregarded me because she hadn't

> heard about it? That's something that ostensibly seems innocuous

but

> it bothers me a lot. It actually bothers me more than that stupid

stay

> a while longer trick. How do I deal with that?

>

> qwerty

>

December 13, 2007

I've learned that I can't make her care. But it disgusts me that she

doesn't. And I'm wondering whether I shouldn't just stop talking to

her altogether so that I am not subjected to various forms of

ugliness, whether it's disregard for me, her grandkids, or her

tendency to spew whatever garbage is going through her head.

In other words, I know she won't/can't change, but I still have an

emotional reaction when she says something like that. I don't like

having those emotional reactions because they make me feel bad, and

they tire me out. Even trying to avoid one of her pitfalls tires me

out. So maybe it's time for me to remove myself from those situations

altogether.

qwerty

>

> I encountered this once regarding a sick nephew, her grandson. Nada

> had been visiting bro before the boy was diagnosed; after diagnosis,

> bro just so happened to call me before her. She didn't respond when I

> told her what was wrong, and didn't respond again when I told her how

> long it would take for him to recover, etc. When I confronted her on

> it, her final response was: OKAY, I heard you! At which point she

> moved onto Seinfeld, how senile everyone is (except her), and so on.

>

> The end.

>

> You can't make someone give a shit.

>

December 13, 2007

Yeah -- I hear ya. I'm still pissed off that my dad won't listen to

my side when trying to force me to placate nada. He absolutely

won't allow me to have a different viewpoint -- he either shuts it

down angrily, or sarcastically knocks down every point I've brought

up with self-serving excuses. I'm angry with him and I don't want

to go around him anymore.

-Kyla

> >

> > I encountered this once regarding a sick nephew, her grandson.

Nada

> > had been visiting bro before the boy was diagnosed; after

diagnosis,

> > bro just so happened to call me before her. She didn't respond

when I

> > told her what was wrong, and didn't respond again when I told

her how

> > long it would take for him to recover, etc. When I confronted

her on

> > it, her final response was: OKAY, I heard you! At which point

she

> > moved onto Seinfeld, how senile everyone is (except her), and so

on.

> >

> > The end.

> >

> > You can't make someone give a shit.

> >

>

December 13, 2007

Qwerty,

Your post actually made me laugh because it sounds so much like my

Nada, it's crazy!

With the phone calls, say " I have to go " once and if she keeps

talking, say it one more time and simply hang up. Of course, she'll

flip out, but eventually she will learn.

The other stuff, her not listening to you, I know how this hurts as

well. Remember though, she is mentally ill. It's not about you. She

will never, ever, ever really start listening to you. You keep

expecting/hoping/praying that some day she will, but she will not!

Sometimes, when my life feels crazy, I imagine that it is a movie, and

I ask myself how I, as the one watching the movie, might see it. When

I see someone make the same fruitless attempts over and over while

dealing with someone who's a little bit (or more) nutty, isn't it kind

of funny? From a distance, when it's not you? We laugh at dark

comedies all the time!

See if you can look at this from far away the next time. Tell her

something, and if she doesn't listen, wait for it to come back. When

it does, pat yourself on the back for knowing what was coming, calling

it, and breaking the pattern by detaching. Observe it, from somewhere

else. Say to yourself, isn't that funny that my nada doesn't hear

things? That is so odd.

I hope this makes sense and/or helps.

-Deanna

P.S.

Remind me I told you this the next time *I* post something like you

did. HA!

>

> I've been thinking lately about the conversations I have on the phone

> with my nada. I've learned a lot over the years about steering the

> conversation, not talking about certain topics, cutting off her

> attempts to discuss certain topics by saying " I don't feel comfortable

> discussing that " as many times as I need to until the subject is

> finally dropped, etc.

>

> But I she still plays games with me on the phone. Granted, they're

> smaller in scale, but they're also more subtle. It tires me out,

> anticipating what she's going to say and responding in a way that

> doesn't compromise me (staying calm, being polite). It also makes me

> angry, just on principle. I don't like being treated like a doormat,

> or as though my thoughts and feelings are irrelevant. And this is how

> she behaves towards me time and again. Even if she isn't rampaging or

> saying nasty things to me, she still does subtle things that piss me

> off even days or weeks later.

>

> The incident that I mentioned in a previous thread is a great example.

> She hasn't heard about my niece's medical condition, so she dismisses

> what I said about it as irrelevant. This is offensive to me on three

> levels: one, that it indicates to me her complete disregard for

> anything I express, two, it indicates a complete disregard for her own

> granddaughter, three, it indicates that even when discussing her

> granddaughter's health, she is more concerned about herself.

>

> Another example which happens every bloody time I talk to her on the

> phone--when I say I have to go she dismisses it. She does so typically

> in one of two ways. One method is when she takes on a sarcastic,

> offended tone, implying that I have no right to go and eat lunch

> instead of talk to her (I have diabetes and can get hypoglycemic if I

> don't eat on time. She has diabetes too [uncontrolled, of course] so

> she knows what this feels like!). Another tactic is to say " OK, but I

> just want to ask you one more thing: how is so and so? " and when I

> answer, she has another question, and then another. So I have to

> reiterate at least twice that I have to go. I might try to say I have

> to go 10 minutes earlier than I do, giving her 10 minutes to play her

> stupid mind games but still keeping to my time frame. But again, this

> is more planning, more strategizing, and for what? To have a pointless

> conversation--sorry, monologue--with someone I don't want to talk to

> in the first place. And again, this BS of asking me questions when I

> say I have to go sends a clear message: " dearest daughter, I could

> care less about your needs or desires. "

>

> I am tired of these games. I am tired of being treated like a doormat.

> Maybe it's time to stop calling her altogether? Or am I missing some

> strategies that my help? I'll add that she is not infirm, has a job

> and plenty of money, a very nice apartment, and a number of friends

> and colleagues. (She usually cycles through friends, splitting them

> good then bad, but has one or two that have stuck around.)

>

> There's also an intervening factor here: my husband and I have a few

> boxes of our possessions stored in her basement storage room abroad (I

> know, poor judgment on my part). It would probably cost about $1,000

> to have it shipped to where we live, and I can count on her to somehow

> screw that up. Either she'll " accidentally " send me a wrong box or

> two, or worse, she'll open up some boxes and start milling about my

> things without my permission. I might be able to get a friend to go to

> her house and make sure everything is shipped properly, but I'm not

> sure I feel right about putting a friend in that situation. On the

> other hand, my husband and I could decide to forgo our stuff

altogether.

>

> What would you do? What do you suggest?

>

> Thanks,

> qwerty

>

December 13, 2007

That's the thing. The fact that she didn't answer my question isn't

what bothers me. I could e-mail my brother and ask him. It's that she

assumed that her granddaughter was in perfect health simply because

she hadn't heard from my brother about the medical condition that I

had mentioned. Simply because I mentioned it, in her mind, made the

matter non-existent. It's as if anything that comes out of my mouth is

irrelevant to her. Her disregard for me is so deep that when I say

something about the health of her granddaughter, it doesn't even

register. *That's* what bothers me. She's rubbing in my face (whether

consciously or not) how little she thinks of my opinions or what I

have to say.

Of course, I knew that already, but by hearing that sort of garbage on

the phone, I am subjecting myself to repeats of the same abuse from my

childhood. Even if I can think of some sort of boundary to put down

regarding that issue, it'll constantly come up in various forms

because that's how she thinks of me.

I guess it hit a nerve because I am currently working on recognizing

my own needs earlier and acting on them. She just really set off an

alarm in my head that said " hey! you just disregarded not only my

needs, but me as a person! "

qwerty

>

> There's nothing you can do about how someone decides to behave.

> She's chosen to handle it that way and most likely won't change.

> Might as well accept that she's that way and let it go. Otherwise,

> you'll end up perpetually frustrated over something you have no

> control over. You can say to yourself " Well, obviously she's not

> going to answer my question. " and give up the idea that you're going

> to get the information from her. Resolve to get it from someone

> else.

>

> -Kyla

December 13, 2007

My Nada's terrible about listening as well.

Sister and I used to joke that she was just having a conversation with herself,

we were just around so she didn't look crazy talking to herself. It was like our

replies didin't matter, she 'knew' what we were going to say and just responded

to that. We could have said we were leaving to have an orgy with aliens on

Jupiter and it wouldn't have mattered.

I had one conversation with Nada at a party in college (she simply HAD to speak

with me right then, no matter where I was... I can't believe I used to put up

with that.) The reason being that she was worried little sis wouldn't be able to

transfer her community college credits to a 4-year university. Yeah, apparently

this is an absolutely vital topic at midnight on a Friday while your daughter is

out with her friends, couldn't possibly wait until the morning. Argh. A few of

my friends came outside with me to smoke cigarettes and listened. I realized

when I hung up that they'd all finished smoking and were quietly listening to my

end of the conversation. As soon as I put my phone away they all busted up

laughing. I didn't realize it from my end, but to their hearing the entire

conversation went like this:

" Mom, I'm going to the counselor's office on Monday anyway, I'll take her with

me and we can go over her credits then. "

" I'll take her with me to the counselor's on Monday. "

" I'm going to the counselor on Monday, I'll take her then, we'll take care of

it. "

" We'll go see the counselor on Monday "

" Mom, I'll take her to the counselor with me on Monday. "

" I'll take her to the counselor with me on Monday. "

And so on.... for nearly twenty minutes until I finally hung up.

They STILL talk about that everytime I mention her, and it's been five years!

Jae

Re: LC/NC: where to draw the line

Qwerty,

Your post actually made me laugh because it sounds so much like my

Nada, it's crazy!

With the phone calls, say " I have to go " once and if she keeps

talking, say it one more time and simply hang up. Of course, she'll

flip out, but eventually she will learn.

The other stuff, her not listening to you, I know how this hurts as

well. Remember though, she is mentally ill. It's not about you. She

will never, ever, ever really start listening to you. You keep

expecting/hoping/ praying that some day she will, but she will not!