Re: Split White or Black - informal poll

[Guest guest]

This is very interesting. I was always the percect child, and my brother was

the terror.

This was before my dad died.

After he died (I was 13, brother was 11) I started being split black and white.

If I stood up

for my brother I was black. If I didn't I was white.

I was more white than black and becoming disentangled was very difficult, I had

to keep

throwing up boundary after boundary, which I was told was mean. It took me

close to 3

years to feel comfortable and even after that, I had a big problem with her last

week that

set me a back a little and I just want to climb under the covers.

Even when she labels me bad, she can't keep to it for more than a couple of

days, I think

this is because at this point in her life (she is 61 yrs old) She has alientated

EVERYONE.

She has a few friends left but most people have nothing to do with her,

When I went to college she tortured my brother so badly that when he went to

college 2

yrs later he started the LC road then, and it has worked really well for him.

This is a great thread!

L

>

> It seems that a KO's experience of the BP parent is a lot different

> depending on whether you were mostly split white or black or

> somewhere in between. I am curious where most of us on this board

> stand (mostly white, mostly black or shift back and forth) and what

> you think of it.

>

> I've been consistently split black by nada my whole life. I have one

> memory where, for some unknown reason, I was briefly split white. It

> was weird.

>

> I was in my mid-20s and pursuing a career in law and politics.

> Casting had begun for the Gone with the Wind prequel or sequel. Nada

> was convinced that I would make the perfect Scarlett O'Hara. I can

> safely tell you that this is not the case - I had no acting

> experience (or desire to pursue that career) nor do I look like

> Scarlett aside from having dark hair. (Besides my natural

> disposition is that of the cranky, black haired girl, not a charming

> southern belle . During our telephone conversation, Nada just kept

> going on and on in the weirdest voice about how perfect I would be

> for the role and insisting that I try out for the part.

>

> As a split black, I can tell you what you probably already know - it

> hurts to feel like your own mother hates you (aside from brief

> delusions that you're Scarlett O'Hara). But, it also seems like it's

> easier to detach from nada - split whites seem to have more problems

> with enmeshment which was never an issue for me.

>

> What's your story? What are your thoughts?

>

[Guest guest]

I was generally split " bad, " depending on whether or not I agreed to

her demands, with her opinions, or did things her way. But even if I

complied, I did so begrudgingly. She picked up on that and was angry

at my begrudging compliance.

Life with her was a series of shouting and screaming rages with

occasional violent outbursts in which she slapped me on the face. She

stopped slapping my face when my dad said that she shouldn't (it would

leave a mark). They agreed that slapping the behind was much better (!).

I probably had a learning disability having to do with numbers and

math. This was ignored. I also exhibited acting performance and

writing skills as a child. I wrote poems and little stories, and my

brother and I would make up productions which I would direct. I would

make up songs, for example rewriting " Who Are the People in Your

Neighborhood " from Sesame Street, inner city style (it was funny).

This amused my parents and bought my brother and me some happy family

time, but my mom did nothing to encourage me. (I learned to seek

proofreading help from my father, as my mother seemed disgusted by my

writing.)

My younger brother was generally treated more kindly, doing little

" wrong " until around the age of 11 or 12. When she tried to hit him as

a child, he would sprint. She'd chase him, invariably fail to catch

him, and they would wind up laughing hysterically. I envied his

ability to diffuse the situation and escape punishment. I still bore

the brunt of her screaming until around 9th or 10th grade. From then

on, I could retreat from her with homework and reading while she

turned on him. (It also helped that she was studying for an MA in

psychology (!) at the time. Those afternoons when she was at school

were so pleasant for my brother and me.)

I've had great difficulty with detachment. I had always sought her

approval, and therefore, I thought, love. I never got it, only more

disappointment, hurt, anger, and sadness. She bitched at me when I

failed, and pissed on my achievements. When she started giving me crap

for getting a raise at work when I was 22 (apparently it wasn't big

enough in her opinion), I decided to stop telling her anything

personal altogether, positive or negative. She tends to " take pride "

in my accomplishments way after the fact, telling everyone she knows

how I do this and that so they think she's supportive. I still have

difficulty recognizing my own positive achievements and strengths, and

tend to be very hard on myself when I make a mistake.

I'm trying to parent myself, replacing the negative " tapes " in my head

with positive reassurance. It's hard to undo years and years of bad

habits, essentially having my mother live in my head (ouch). It makes

me angry that she screwed up my emotional wiring so badly, and she

doesn't even recognize it.

qwerty

>

> It seems that a KO's experience of the BP parent is a lot different

> depending on whether you were mostly split white or black or

> somewhere in between. I am curious where most of us on this board

> stand (mostly white, mostly black or shift back and forth) and what

> you think of it.

>

> I've been consistently split black by nada my whole life. I have one

> memory where, for some unknown reason, I was briefly split white. It

> was weird.

>

> I was in my mid-20s and pursuing a career in law and politics.

> Casting had begun for the Gone with the Wind prequel or sequel. Nada

> was convinced that I would make the perfect Scarlett O'Hara. I can

> safely tell you that this is not the case - I had no acting

> experience (or desire to pursue that career) nor do I look like

> Scarlett aside from having dark hair. (Besides my natural

> disposition is that of the cranky, black haired girl, not a charming

> southern belle . During our telephone conversation, Nada just kept

> going on and on in the weirdest voice about how perfect I would be

> for the role and insisting that I try out for the part.

>

> As a split black, I can tell you what you probably already know - it

> hurts to feel like your own mother hates you (aside from brief

> delusions that you're Scarlett O'Hara). But, it also seems like it's

> easier to detach from nada - split whites seem to have more problems

> with enmeshment which was never an issue for me.

>

> What's your story? What are your thoughts?

>

[Guest guest]

I was split black growing up because my child-like (ie normal)

behavior was always compared to my brother who is older than me.

I always felt like I was being such an unruly child just by having

needs. By the time I got 9yo, I decided I was going to try to do my

best to be a " good " child, which was really just a slow process of

turning myself off and doing absolutely everything my nada wanted.

Well, after my brother who was split white grew up and realized the

rest of the world would not split him the same way (now a convicted

felon), I have recently been split white. Thank goodness they had me

because " I make their life worth living " .

Well, even after I was split the other way, I was in therapy and

neither way really sat very well for me. They're just this crazy

isolationist family that is very intelligent and manipulative....

really know how to pull on the heart strings.

As messed up as I am, at list I was split black. My brother seems way

too far gone in my eyes. It looks like the majority of us were split

black at some point. Being split black is painful, but it really will

either be the end of you or your way out of enmeshment.

G.

> >

> > It seems that a KO's experience of the BP parent is a lot different

> > depending on whether you were mostly split white or black or

> > somewhere in between. I am curious where most of us on this board

> > stand (mostly white, mostly black or shift back and forth) and what

> > you think of it.

> >

> > I've been consistently split black by nada my whole life. I have one

> > memory where, for some unknown reason, I was briefly split white. It

> > was weird.

> >

> > I was in my mid-20s and pursuing a career in law and politics.

> > Casting had begun for the Gone with the Wind prequel or sequel. Nada

> > was convinced that I would make the perfect Scarlett O'Hara. I can

> > safely tell you that this is not the case - I had no acting

> > experience (or desire to pursue that career) nor do I look like

> > Scarlett aside from having dark hair. (Besides my natural

> > disposition is that of the cranky, black haired girl, not a charming

> > southern belle . During our telephone conversation, Nada just kept

> > going on and on in the weirdest voice about how perfect I would be

> > for the role and insisting that I try out for the part.

> >

> > As a split black, I can tell you what you probably already know - it

> > hurts to feel like your own mother hates you (aside from brief

> > delusions that you're Scarlett O'Hara). But, it also seems like it's

> > easier to detach from nada - split whites seem to have more problems

> > with enmeshment which was never an issue for me.

> >

> > What's your story? What are your thoughts?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I was split black most of my life, but particularly after I left home. I moved

nearly 300 miles away as soon as I graduated from high school (on my graduation

day actually, I didn't attend, I just packed up my car and left), my sister

(always split white) moved 3 miles away this past June at the age of 21. I'm

glad of it though. She made my home such a miserable place to be, I had to

leave. My sister didn't have that problem and now she's still enmeshed and I'm

NC. It hurt a lot, knowing with all certainty, that my mother didn't love me or

want me around, but I'd rather have that then what my sister has. She's taking

on more and more BPD traits as she gets older. There's a good chance, if she has

kids, that they'll end up in a group like this someday talking about their nada.

But I've already made efforts to break the cycle.

Jae

Re: Split White or Black - informal poll

I was split black growing up because my child-like (ie normal)

behavior was always compared to my brother who is older than me.

I always felt like I was being such an unruly child just by having

needs. By the time I got 9yo, I decided I was going to try to do my

best to be a " good " child, which was really just a slow process of

turning myself off and doing absolutely everything my nada wanted.

Well, after my brother who was split white grew up and realized the

rest of the world would not split him the same way (now a convicted

felon), I have recently been split white. Thank goodness they had me

because " I make their life worth living " .

Well, even after I was split the other way, I was in therapy and

neither way really sat very well for me. They're just this crazy

isolationist family that is very intelligent and manipulative. ...

really know how to pull on the heart strings.

As messed up as I am, at list I was split black. My brother seems way

too far gone in my eyes. It looks like the majority of us were split

black at some point. Being split black is painful, but it really will

either be the end of you or your way out of enmeshment.

G.

> >

> > It seems that a KO's experience of the BP parent is a lot different

> > depending on whether you were mostly split white or black or

> > somewhere in between. I am curious where most of us on this board

> > stand (mostly white, mostly black or shift back and forth) and what

> > you think of it.

> >

> > I've been consistently split black by nada my whole life. I have one

> > memory where, for some unknown reason, I was briefly split white. It

> > was weird.

> >

> > I was in my mid-20s and pursuing a career in law and politics.

> > Casting had begun for the Gone with the Wind prequel or sequel. Nada

> > was convinced that I would make the perfect Scarlett O'Hara. I can

> > safely tell you that this is not the case - I had no acting

> > experience (or desire to pursue that career) nor do I look like

> > Scarlett aside from having dark hair. (Besides my natural

> > disposition is that of the cranky, black haired girl, not a charming

> > southern belle . During our telephone conversation, Nada just kept

> > going on and on in the weirdest voice about how perfect I would be

> > for the role and insisting that I try out for the part.

> >

> > As a split black, I can tell you what you probably already know - it

> > hurts to feel like your own mother hates you (aside from brief

> > delusions that you're Scarlett O'Hara). But, it also seems like it's

> > easier to detach from nada - split whites seem to have more problems

> > with enmeshment which was never an issue for me.

> >

> > What's your story? What are your thoughts?

> >

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

This is such an interesting poll. Reading UBM I was a bit confused

about splitting good v's bad. My split seemed twisted since I have

made it my goal to be good, keep my nose clean, and to make good

choice's. But I am split black and have been all my life. No matter

what I do its never been good enough. Where my sister was the wild

child and made some not so good choice's and yet get's all of nadas

love and attention.......there for split white. I married at 19,

and moved away ASAP, where my sister has stayed with in a stones

throw of our nada, or lived with her off and on for years. Although

she has made it work for her she is still somewhat emeshed....they

do fight often but make up very quickly. Where I have avoided

confrontation with nada my whole life, at all costs. My nada also

makes it a point to tell sister that she is loved.......where I only

get I love you's on holidays or before nada leaves on a trip. I'm

sure she thinks its me who is hard to love rather than the other way

around ;0) So BPD wouldn't you say??? I have a theory of my

nada.....you see I was an illegitimate child and my sister

wasn't.....so I just figure I was unwanted v's my wanted sister. IMO.

drlingirl

>

> It seems that a KO's experience of the BP parent is a lot

different

> depending on whether you were mostly split white or black or

> somewhere in between. I am curious where most of us on this board

> stand (mostly white, mostly black or shift back and forth) and

what

> you think of it.

>

> I've been consistently split black by nada my whole life. I have

one

> memory where, for some unknown reason, I was briefly split white.

It

> was weird.

>

> I was in my mid-20s and pursuing a career in law and politics.

> Casting had begun for the Gone with the Wind prequel or sequel.

Nada

> was convinced that I would make the perfect Scarlett O'Hara. I

can

> safely tell you that this is not the case - I had no acting

> experience (or desire to pursue that career) nor do I look like

> Scarlett aside from having dark hair. (Besides my natural

> disposition is that of the cranky, black haired girl, not a

charming

> southern belle . During our telephone conversation, Nada just

kept

> going on and on in the weirdest voice about how perfect I would be

> for the role and insisting that I try out for the part.

>

> As a split black, I can tell you what you probably already know -

it

> hurts to feel like your own mother hates you (aside from brief

> delusions that you're Scarlett O'Hara). But, it also seems like

it's

> easier to detach from nada - split whites seem to have more

problems

> with enmeshment which was never an issue for me.

>

> What's your story? What are your thoughts?

>

[Guest guest]

Interesting responses - thanks for sharing your experiences.

A common thread seems to be that agreeding with nada will " earn " you a

white designation, and not agreeing will make you bad. Although with

some nadas it seems like no matter how much you tried to please her,

nada wouldn't split you white.

I wonder what makes BPs split? In my case I thought it was because I

was too much like my father or maternal grandmother or because as the

only girl I was too much like nada. Whatever the reason, even though I

lived it, I find it hard to see how a mother could hate her child and

not feel remorse for the damage that hatred inflicts.

[Guest guest]

I was the " good " child and my brother got to act out while growing

up. Now he and I are very close -- he has no problem telling nada

where he stands and doesn't put up with her crap, where I am more

reluctant to be honest with her.

Fada doesn't have much to do with me, despite being invited many

times. Calls my brother every day, went into a little side business

with him, etc. I'm left out.

-Kyla

> >

> > It seems that a KO's experience of the BP parent is a lot

> different

> > depending on whether you were mostly split white or black or

> > somewhere in between. I am curious where most of us on this

board

> > stand (mostly white, mostly black or shift back and forth) and

> what

> > you think of it.

> >

> > I've been consistently split black by nada my whole life. I

have

> one

> > memory where, for some unknown reason, I was briefly split

white.

> It

> > was weird.

> >

> > I was in my mid-20s and pursuing a career in law and politics.

> > Casting had begun for the Gone with the Wind prequel or sequel.

> Nada

> > was convinced that I would make the perfect Scarlett O'Hara. I

> can

> > safely tell you that this is not the case - I had no acting

> > experience (or desire to pursue that career) nor do I look like

> > Scarlett aside from having dark hair. (Besides my natural

> > disposition is that of the cranky, black haired girl, not a

> charming

> > southern belle . During our telephone conversation, Nada just

> kept

> > going on and on in the weirdest voice about how perfect I would

be

> > for the role and insisting that I try out for the part.

> >

> > As a split black, I can tell you what you probably already know -

> it

> > hurts to feel like your own mother hates you (aside from brief

> > delusions that you're Scarlett O'Hara). But, it also seems like

> it's

> > easier to detach from nada - split whites seem to have more

> problems

> > with enmeshment which was never an issue for me.

> >

> > What's your story? What are your thoughts?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I was the super achiever, trying to please, like you, it would

appear. However, I was split black...and very consistently so.

Guess it happens both ways. Thanks for your post.

> >

> > It seems that a KO's experience of the BP parent is a lot

different

> > depending on whether you were mostly split white or black or

> > somewhere in between. I am curious where most of us on this

board

> > stand (mostly white, mostly black or shift back and forth) and

what

> > you think of it.

> >

> > I've been consistently split black by nada my whole life. I

have one

> > memory where, for some unknown reason, I was briefly split

white. It

> > was weird.

> >

> > I was in my mid-20s and pursuing a career in law and politics.

> > Casting had begun for the Gone with the Wind prequel or sequel.

Nada

> > was convinced that I would make the perfect Scarlett O'Hara. I

can

> > safely tell you that this is not the case - I had no acting

> > experience (or desire to pursue that career) nor do I look like

> > Scarlett aside from having dark hair. (Besides my natural

> > disposition is that of the cranky, black haired girl, not a

charming

> > southern belle . During our telephone conversation, Nada just

kept

> > going on and on in the weirdest voice about how perfect I would

be

> > for the role and insisting that I try out for the part.

> >

> > As a split black, I can tell you what you probably already know -

it

> > hurts to feel like your own mother hates you (aside from brief

> > delusions that you're Scarlett O'Hara). But, it also seems like

it's

> > easier to detach from nada - split whites seem to have more

problems

> > with enmeshment which was never an issue for me.

> >

> > What's your story? What are your thoughts?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Kyla,

My sister stands up to our nada daily, and has had to be mean to her

at times.......she has to do this to live so close by, and it works

for her. She still is needy and loves nada...yada, yada, yada.

Where I was and I am the wimp. No more though ;0)

I agree with a post'r who said it was better to be black than

white....it is so much easier to let go....

drlingirl

> > >

> > > It seems that a KO's experience of the BP parent is a lot

> > different

> > > depending on whether you were mostly split white or black or

> > > somewhere in between. I am curious where most of us on this

> board

> > > stand (mostly white, mostly black or shift back and forth) and

> > what

> > > you think of it.

> > >

> > > I've been consistently split black by nada my whole life. I

> have

> > one

> > > memory where, for some unknown reason, I was briefly split

> white.

> > It

> > > was weird.

> > >

> > > I was in my mid-20s and pursuing a career in law and

politics.

> > > Casting had begun for the Gone with the Wind prequel or

sequel.

> > Nada

> > > was convinced that I would make the perfect Scarlett O'Hara.

I

> > can

> > > safely tell you that this is not the case - I had no acting

> > > experience (or desire to pursue that career) nor do I look

like

> > > Scarlett aside from having dark hair. (Besides my natural

> > > disposition is that of the cranky, black haired girl, not a

> > charming

> > > southern belle . During our telephone conversation, Nada

just

> > kept

> > > going on and on in the weirdest voice about how perfect I

would

> be

> > > for the role and insisting that I try out for the part.

> > >

> > > As a split black, I can tell you what you probably already

know -

>

> > it

> > > hurts to feel like your own mother hates you (aside from brief

> > > delusions that you're Scarlett O'Hara). But, it also seems

like

> > it's

> > > easier to detach from nada - split whites seem to have more

> > problems

> > > with enmeshment which was never an issue for me.

> > >

> > > What's your story? What are your thoughts?

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

The way it has been explained to me is that splitting is a typical

immature emotional reaction to a situation. Young children split

their world into good/bad, and a BP has the emotional level of a young

child. BPs, and young children, cannot grasp that life is not an all

or nothing event.

As for a mother not feeling remorse - well, again we have a 'mother'

who is incapable of recognizing any feeling other than the one she is

experiencing - and she thinks everyone feels the same way. A normal

mother does not hate her children, and if she makes a mistake, she

will apologize.

Sylvia

>.......>

> I wonder what makes BPs split? In my case I thought it was because

I

> was too much like my father or maternal grandmother or because as

the

> only girl I was too much like nada. Whatever the reason, even

though I

> lived it, I find it hard to see how a mother could hate her child

and

> not feel remorse for the damage that hatred inflicts.

>

[Guest guest]

my nada varied in how she split me, spose it depended on whether what I was

doing made her look good or not. Whenever I mad it look like she had done

something right in raising me to the public, I was split good, however when I

took the path that made her different from what she wanted it was bad, (even

though it made her look good.

MC

drlingirl wrote: Kyla,

My sister stands up to our nada daily, and has had to be mean to her

at times.......she has to do this to live so close by, and it works

for her. She still is needy and loves nada...yada, yada, yada.

Where I was and I am the wimp. No more though ;0)

I agree with a post'r who said it was better to be black than

white....it is so much easier to let go....

drlingirl

> > >

> > > It seems that a KO's experience of the BP parent is a lot

> > different

> > > depending on whether you were mostly split white or black or

> > > somewhere in between. I am curious where most of us on this

> board

> > > stand (mostly white, mostly black or shift back and forth) and

> > what

> > > you think of it.

> > >

> > > I've been consistently split black by nada my whole life. I

> have

> > one

> > > memory where, for some unknown reason, I was briefly split

> white.

> > It

> > > was weird.

> > >

> > > I was in my mid-20s and pursuing a career in law and

politics.

> > > Casting had begun for the Gone with the Wind prequel or

sequel.

> > Nada

> > > was convinced that I would make the perfect Scarlett O'Hara.

I

> > can

> > > safely tell you that this is not the case - I had no acting

> > > experience (or desire to pursue that career) nor do I look

like

> > > Scarlett aside from having dark hair. (Besides my natural

> > > disposition is that of the cranky, black haired girl, not a

> > charming

> > > southern belle . During our telephone conversation, Nada

just

> > kept

> > > going on and on in the weirdest voice about how perfect I

would

> be

> > > for the role and insisting that I try out for the part.

> > >

> > > As a split black, I can tell you what you probably already

know -

>

> > it

> > > hurts to feel like your own mother hates you (aside from brief

> > > delusions that you're Scarlett O'Hara). But, it also seems

like

> > it's

> > > easier to detach from nada - split whites seem to have more

> > problems

> > > with enmeshment which was never an issue for me.

> > >

> > > What's your story? What are your thoughts?

> > >

> >

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi All

Thanks, maternallydetached, for starting this

thread, and to ALL of you who replied so far.

Again, you’re eloquence and wisdom floors me and

elevates me at the same time.

For me, this is one of the most powerful subjects

about my KO experience. I was NEVER split white

by nada – lifelong split-black (SB) here. (Some

people think SB means “son of a *****.”) At

the risk of sounding terminally unique, I want to

say that there’s a twist to this that most people

don’t (fortunately) seem to have experienced.

It’s not just that I had a terrible time

unmeshing from my nada for many years; it’s what

I think is the reason for it: my fada. Thousands

of times, he sent and encouraged me to go back to

her physically (as a child), mentally,

emotionally and spiritually, mainly with his

mantra to me about her, said to me hundreds of

times: “Don’t hate your mother.” Like I’ve

posted here before, that’s exactly what I

SHOULD’ve done: hate her for the way she treated

me and allowed others to treat me, so that I

wouldn’t internalize those feelings like he did

(his projection onto me from his abusive

childhood). That’s what a child SHOULD do in

that kind of situation (not rebel, I mean a child

needs help to appropriately express their

feelings) or they’ll end up as I did – with a

MOUNTAIN of rage that took me DECADES to work

out. (In case you’re wondering what I did with

all that rage about her and the other FOO: for

decades, I turned almost ALL of it on myself,

internalizing it into various physical, mental,

emotional and spiritual illnesses. I rarely do

that in recent years, partly because almost all

of the rage is gone and because I know not to

turn it on myself.)

I wondered for many years why I kept going back

to her as a child, instead of rebelling

externally by running away, taking drugs,

stealing, or something like that, as it seems

that most SBs do (I’m also thinking of the many

stories we hear outside of this group). I

rebelled internally – against myself, twisting

and warping my own behaviors, beliefs, needs and

instincts just to survive. I’ve thought in

recent years that I didn’t rebel externally

(except a little bit starting in my later teen

years) and just kept taking their abuse because

of my fada’s encouragement to keep enmeshing

myself with my FOO, despite the OBvious evidence

available and apparent to him and nearly everyone

else that I was SB and had behavior disturbances

indicating that I was seriously troubled. I

haven’t thought of any other reason than my

fada’s influence to not rebel externally why I

didn’t rebel in that typical way as a child and

teenager.

Maybe I’ve already figured out the answer, but

I’d like your feedback: what are your ideas about

why I, a split-black, didn’t start to unmesh from

my nada for so long? Did any of you have the

type of experience I had?

One Non-BP Recovering Man

--- smhtrain2 wrote:

> The way it has been explained to me is that

> splitting is a typical

> immature emotional reaction to a situation.

> Young children split

> their world into good/bad, and a BP has the

> emotional level of a young

> child. BPs, and young children, cannot grasp

> that life is not an all

> or nothing event.

>

> As for a mother not feeling remorse - well,

> again we have a 'mother'

> who is incapable of recognizing any feeling

> other than the one she is

> experiencing - and she thinks everyone feels

> the same way. A normal

> mother does not hate her children, and if she

> makes a mistake, she

> will apologize.

>

> Sylvia

>

>

> >.......>

> > I wonder what makes BPs split? In my case I

> thought it was because

> I

> > was too much like my father or maternal

> grandmother or because as

> the

> > only girl I was too much like nada. Whatever

> the reason, even

> though I

> > lived it, I find it hard to see how a mother

> could hate her child

> and

> > not feel remorse for the damage that hatred

> inflicts.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I think you've brought up a very important point, namely, that your

fada was a very effective enabler of your nada. He reinforced the

socially sacred notion of loving one's mother when it didn't apply,

essentially perverting it. Telling you not to hate your mother serves

the following purposes:

1) It validates your mother's hateful behavior,

2) Invalidates your feeling of hatred towards her as a result of her

behavior,

3) Blames you for your own feelings instead of her for her poor behavior,

4) Shames you for supposedly inverting the social norm ( " love your

mother " ) and therefore being a " bad " son,

5) Perpetuates the cycle of BPD mother and split son, while leaving

blameless the instruments of perpetuation (both your nada and fada).

That's a hell of a lot to dump on a defenseless child! An awful

statement like that, when repeated over time, does a lot to one's

self-esteem and relationship dynamics. I'm sure you heard a lot of

other twisted statements directed at you as a child, all designed, no

doubt, to shame, blame, and hurt you in the worst possible way.

Based on own childhood memories, I think I was just trying to survive

my home until I could leave. I was also so consistently unhappy, that

I didn't even know what happiness was. My default state was blank, an

attempt not to feel sad, not to feel anything, just so I could get

through the day intact. In a way, I didn't realize it was possible to

feel otherwise. My nada had done such a number on me that I didn't

even realize I deserved better until well after I left my home at age 18.

Being split black, we learn that we deserve to be treated like trash.

We learn that we do not deserve love, kindness, stability, warmth,

security, safety. And we are so busy trying to hide or suppress our

emotions (lest nada strike us down for feeling them), that we don't

even realize that we are so very, very angry at being treated the way

we were.

It's difficult to detach ourselves because we've been conditioned so

heavily to be enmeshed. We learn that if we don't do as nada says, if

we don't visit her as much as she likes, if we don't call her as much

as she likes, then we are bad children. We are committing the crime of

hating our mother, and that crime is unforgivable. That crime bears

the capital offense of not being loved. So if we just comply, and do

whatever nada wants, then we won't hate our mother and maybe we can be

loved.

Our nadas and fadas teach us very destructive messages that we

internalize as children. These messages are the basis for our

behavior, which can sometimes be inscrutable because the messages are

embedded so deeply in our conscious/subconscious. We can change our

behavior by digging up those messages, examining their maladaptive

nature, and learning new, healthy messages. If I am a computer and

those messages are my operating system, I need to essentially reformat

my entire hard drive and install something completely different (Mac?

). This is hard work.

I'm finding it very difficult to pick apart all the lies I was taught

and teach myself to behave differently by learning healthy premises

(with the help of my therapist). It's like being stuck inside a rubber

band ball, where each rubber band is a twisted nada lesson that

constricts our behavior. You can pick out one rubber band and throw it

away, but there are still so many left, binding your movements. So

many to get rid of before you can move freely and with self-awareness.

That's my silly metaphor of the day .

qwerty

>

> It's not just that I had a terrible time

> unmeshing from my nada for many years; it's what

> I think is the reason for it: my fada. Thousands

> of times, he sent and encouraged me to go back to

> her physically (as a child), mentally,

> emotionally and spiritually, mainly with his

> mantra to me about her, said to me hundreds of

> times: " Don't hate your mother. " Like I've

> posted here before, that's exactly what I

> SHOULD've done: hate her for the way she treated

> me and allowed others to treat me, so that I

> wouldn't internalize those feelings like he did

> (his projection onto me from his abusive

> childhood). That's what a child SHOULD do in

> that kind of situation (not rebel, I mean a child

> needs help to appropriately express their

> feelings) or they'll end up as I did – with a

> MOUNTAIN of rage that took me DECADES to work

> out. (In case you're wondering what I did with

> all that rage about her and the other FOO: for

> decades, I turned almost ALL of it on myself,

> internalizing it into various physical, mental,

> emotional and spiritual illnesses. I rarely do

> that in recent years, partly because almost all

> of the rage is gone and because I know not to

> turn it on myself.)

>

> Maybe I've already figured out the answer, but

> I'd like your feedback: what are your ideas about

> why I, a split-black, didn't start to unmesh from

> my nada for so long? Did any of you have the

> type of experience I had?

>

> One Non-BP Recovering Man

[Guest guest]

Hey, Non-BP!

I just caught this thread and saw your question -- it's a great one!

I have often wondered why I kept trying so hard into my adulthood to

please my parents. Even though I couldn't wait to get out of that

house at 18, I was still emotionally in that house -- and for

years!

It was very validating to read in " Leaving Home " by Celani

that it's, in fact, common for the dysfunction home offspring to

have a problem unhooking themselves as they reach adulthood.

Ironically, it's the emotionally healthy homes that prepare the kids

for a life on their own.

And as for fadas role -- you nailed that one. My fada STILL ignores

my feelings (in fact, gets angry if I suggest nada is the problem)

and insists that I should cater to her head games because " She's

your mother. "

I have come to HATE that phrase. As qwerty put it: they've

perverted it. It now means: " Put up with whatever she dishes out --

you're her dumping ground. You're to absorb whatever hurts she

flings and you'd better not voice any feelings about it. "

I'm now split black -- I was the good girl, now I'm the " heartless

and cruel stranger " that they don't recognize anymore. According to

them, I " wasn't raised that way. "

Non-BP -- you've done well at untangling all that programming. I'm

glad you're not internalizing it anymore. It's so hard to read

about that happening to an innocent child. I see it even today with

some parents of young children, and it grieves me.

-Kyla

> > >.......>

> > > I wonder what makes BPs split? In my case I

> > thought it was because

> > I

> > > was too much like my father or maternal

> > grandmother or because as

> > the

> > > only girl I was too much like nada. Whatever

> > the reason, even

> > though I

> > > lived it, I find it hard to see how a mother

> > could hate her child

> > and

> > > not feel remorse for the damage that hatred

> > inflicts.

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Very wise words, Qwerty --

> >

> > It's not just that I had a terrible time

> > unmeshing from my nada for many years; it's what

> > I think is the reason for it: my fada. Thousands

> > of times, he sent and encouraged me to go back to

> > her physically (as a child), mentally,

> > emotionally and spiritually, mainly with his

> > mantra to me about her, said to me hundreds of

> > times: " Don't hate your mother. " Like I've

> > posted here before, that's exactly what I

> > SHOULD've done: hate her for the way she treated

> > me and allowed others to treat me, so that I

> > wouldn't internalize those feelings like he did

> > (his projection onto me from his abusive

> > childhood). That's what a child SHOULD do in

> > that kind of situation (not rebel, I mean a child

> > needs help to appropriately express their

> > feelings) or they'll end up as I did – with a

> > MOUNTAIN of rage that took me DECADES to work

> > out. (In case you're wondering what I did with

> > all that rage about her and the other FOO: for

> > decades, I turned almost ALL of it on myself,

> > internalizing it into various physical, mental,

> > emotional and spiritual illnesses. I rarely do

> > that in recent years, partly because almost all

> > of the rage is gone and because I know not to

> > turn it on myself.)

> >

> > Maybe I've already figured out the answer, but

> > I'd like your feedback: what are your ideas about

> > why I, a split-black, didn't start to unmesh from

> > my nada for so long? Did any of you have the

> > type of experience I had?

> >

> > One Non-BP Recovering Man

>

[Guest guest]

Qwerty

Very well put. I can identify greatly with how you were treated by your

mother. I'm still trying to find the balance between living free from my

mother's negativism whilst looking after her as she is elderly and frail - still

disagreeable, though!!

margaret

kylaboo728 wrote:

Very wise words, Qwerty --

> >

> > It's not just that I had a terrible time

> > unmeshing from my nada for many years; it's what

> > I think is the reason for it: my fada. Thousands

> > of times, he sent and encouraged me to go back to

> > her physically (as a child), mentally,

> > emotionally and spiritually, mainly with his

> > mantra to me about her, said to me hundreds of

> > times: " Don't hate your mother. " Like I've

> > posted here before, that's exactly what I

> > SHOULD've done: hate her for the way she treated

> > me and allowed others to treat me, so that I

> > wouldn't internalize those feelings like he did

> > (his projection onto me from his abusive

> > childhood). That's what a child SHOULD do in

> > that kind of situation (not rebel, I mean a child

> > needs help to appropriately express their

> > feelings) or they'll end up as I did – with a

> > MOUNTAIN of rage that took me DECADES to work

> > out. (In case you're wondering what I did with

> > all that rage about her and the other FOO: for

> > decades, I turned almost ALL of it on myself,

> > internalizing it into various physical, mental,

> > emotional and spiritual illnesses. I rarely do

> > that in recent years, partly because almost all

> > of the rage is gone and because I know not to

> > turn it on myself.)

> >

> > Maybe I've already figured out the answer, but

> > I'd like your feedback: what are your ideas about

> > why I, a split-black, didn't start to unmesh from

> > my nada for so long? Did any of you have the

> > type of experience I had?

> >

> > One Non-BP Recovering Man

>

Best wishes

Margaret Harding

Headteacher Support

07919 167 606

---------------------------------

For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good this month.

[Guest guest]

Kyla,

I keep following you around this board....I just can relate to you

so much.

" But she's your mother " has been crammed down my throat forever. I

finally got my father to see that he was able to divorce her 20

years ago.....where I was not!!! Even though she walked out on the

marriage and me at 17......taking my little sister and all of our

stuff with them. After I found out about BPD a month ago I went to

my inlaws and had a heart to heart about going NC with nada. I

didn't want them to disapproved.....which they would have if I

didn't have any proof of a disorder (they are very religious).

Anyways they were very understanding and had no idea what I was

really going through till now. They had in the past always

said " but you are her daughter, and she loves you " ....blah, yuck,

puke!!!

I also am sad to hear the story of the grandparent who " played " the

burn game.......my nade would burn me and then yell at me for not

being more careful....insane!!! She burned me while I was pregnant

with my first child to the point that I needed medical attention.

She just laughed it off like it was my problem or fault.

Those damn nadas and their cigarettes......

drlingirl

> > > >.......>

> > > > I wonder what makes BPs split? In my case I

> > > thought it was because

> > > I

> > > > was too much like my father or maternal

> > > grandmother or because as

> > > the

> > > > only girl I was too much like nada. Whatever

> > > the reason, even

> > > though I

> > > > lived it, I find it hard to see how a mother

> > > could hate her child

> > > and

> > > > not feel remorse for the damage that hatred

> > > inflicts.

> >

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

[Guest guest]

Margaret --

I struggle with the same issue --

I don't want to be " heartless " as my parents age, but I am on guard

against my mother taking advantage of any help I would offer.

It's going to be a fine line, and I dread it. How do you swoop in

and manage the care of elderly parents -- in the future -- who are

giving you the punishing silent treatment NOW?

I could be wrong, but my mother worked herself into a frazzle taking

care of her elderly mother, and her elderly mother was only too

happy to use her up. Yes, they were close, but grandmother had no

qualms about worrying the family to death when she shouldn't have

been on her own, but refused to go to a nursing home.

I am pretty sure my mother assumes I'll do the same thing. I just

can't see me bringing her 3 meals a day on a tray.

> > >

> > > It's not just that I had a terrible time

> > > unmeshing from my nada for many years; it's what

> > > I think is the reason for it: my fada. Thousands

> > > of times, he sent and encouraged me to go back to

> > > her physically (as a child), mentally,

> > > emotionally and spiritually, mainly with his

> > > mantra to me about her, said to me hundreds of

> > > times: " Don't hate your mother. " Like I've

> > > posted here before, that's exactly what I

> > > SHOULD've done: hate her for the way she treated

> > > me and allowed others to treat me, so that I

> > > wouldn't internalize those feelings like he did

> > > (his projection onto me from his abusive

> > > childhood). That's what a child SHOULD do in

> > > that kind of situation (not rebel, I mean a child

> > > needs help to appropriately express their

> > > feelings) or they'll end up as I did – with a

> > > MOUNTAIN of rage that took me DECADES to work

> > > out. (In case you're wondering what I did with

> > > all that rage about her and the other FOO: for

> > > decades, I turned almost ALL of it on myself,

> > > internalizing it into various physical, mental,

> > > emotional and spiritual illnesses. I rarely do

> > > that in recent years, partly because almost all

> > > of the rage is gone and because I know not to

> > > turn it on myself.)

> > >

> > > Maybe I've already figured out the answer, but

> > > I'd like your feedback: what are your ideas about

> > > why I, a split-black, didn't start to unmesh from

> > > my nada for so long? Did any of you have the

> > > type of experience I had?

> > >

> > > One Non-BP Recovering Man

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Best wishes

> Margaret Harding

> Headteacher Support

>

> 07919 167 606

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good

this month.

>

>

[Guest guest]

It's a really difficult situation. I think we have to work hard at knowing what

we can cope with and trying to get out of the FOG trap (my brother and I haven't

done all that well in that area but I am trying now!).

I have been told on many occasions that other daughters and sons would have

had nothing to do with my mother for years, but that's hard when you are the

only close relative and the BPD inevitably has very few friends.

Take care.

margaret

kylaboo728 wrote:

Margaret --

I struggle with the same issue --

I don't want to be " heartless " as my parents age, but I am on guard

against my mother taking advantage of any help I would offer.

It's going to be a fine line, and I dread it. How do you swoop in

and manage the care of elderly parents -- in the future -- who are

giving you the punishing silent treatment NOW?

I could be wrong, but my mother worked herself into a frazzle taking

care of her elderly mother, and her elderly mother was only too

happy to use her up. Yes, they were close, but grandmother had no

qualms about worrying the family to death when she shouldn't have

been on her own, but refused to go to a nursing home.

I am pretty sure my mother assumes I'll do the same thing. I just

can't see me bringing her 3 meals a day on a tray.

> > >

> > > It's not just that I had a terrible time

> > > unmeshing from my nada for many years; it's what

> > > I think is the reason for it: my fada. Thousands

> > > of times, he sent and encouraged me to go back to

> > > her physically (as a child), mentally,

> > > emotionally and spiritually, mainly with his

> > > mantra to me about her, said to me hundreds of

> > > times: " Don't hate your mother. " Like I've

> > > posted here before, that's exactly what I

> > > SHOULD've done: hate her for the way she treated

> > > me and allowed others to treat me, so that I

> > > wouldn't internalize those feelings like he did

> > > (his projection onto me from his abusive

> > > childhood). That's what a child SHOULD do in

> > > that kind of situation (not rebel, I mean a child

> > > needs help to appropriately express their

> > > feelings) or they'll end up as I did – with a

> > > MOUNTAIN of rage that took me DECADES to work

> > > out. (In case you're wondering what I did with

> > > all that rage about her and the other FOO: for

> > > decades, I turned almost ALL of it on myself,

> > > internalizing it into various physical, mental,

> > > emotional and spiritual illnesses. I rarely do

> > > that in recent years, partly because almost all

> > > of the rage is gone and because I know not to

> > > turn it on myself.)

> > >

> > > Maybe I've already figured out the answer, but

> > > I'd like your feedback: what are your ideas about

> > > why I, a split-black, didn't start to unmesh from

> > > my nada for so long? Did any of you have the

> > > type of experience I had?

> > >

> > > One Non-BP Recovering Man

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Best wishes

> Margaret Harding

> Headteacher Support

>

> 07919 167 606

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good

this month.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I was slapped in the fact, too. Good for you for the writing talent!

Re: Split White or Black - informal poll

I was generally split " bad, " depending on whether or not I agreed to

her demands, with her opinions, or did things her way. But even if I

complied, I did so begrudgingly. She picked up on that and was angry

at my begrudging compliance.

Life with her was a series of shouting and screaming rages with

occasional violent outbursts in which she slapped me on the face. She

stopped slapping my face when my dad said that she shouldn't (it would

leave a mark). They agreed that slapping the behind was much better (!).

I probably had a learning disability having to do with numbers and

math. This was ignored. I also exhibited acting performance and

writing skills as a child. I wrote poems and little stories, and my

brother and I would make up productions which I would direct. I would

make up songs, for example rewriting " Who Are the People in Your

Neighborhood " from Sesame Street, inner city style (it was funny).

This amused my parents and bought my brother and me some happy family

time, but my mom did nothing to encourage me. (I learned to seek

proofreading help from my father, as my mother seemed disgusted by my

writing.)

My younger brother was generally treated more kindly, doing little

" wrong " until around the age of 11 or 12. When she tried to hit him as

a child, he would sprint. She'd chase him, invariably fail to catch

him, and they would wind up laughing hysterically. I envied his

ability to diffuse the situation and escape punishment. I still bore

the brunt of her screaming until around 9th or 10th grade. From then

on, I could retreat from her with homework and reading while she

turned on him. (It also helped that she was studying for an MA in

psychology (!) at the time. Those afternoons when she was at school

were so pleasant for my brother and me.)

I've had great difficulty with detachment. I had always sought her

approval, and therefore, I thought, love. I never got it, only more

disappointment, hurt, anger, and sadness. She bitched at me when I

failed, and pissed on my achievements. When she started giving me crap

for getting a raise at work when I was 22 (apparently it wasn't big

enough in her opinion), I decided to stop telling her anything

personal altogether, positive or negative. She tends to " take pride "

in my accomplishments way after the fact, telling everyone she knows

how I do this and that so they think she's supportive. I still have

difficulty recognizing my own positive achievements and strengths, and

tend to be very hard on myself when I make a mistake.

I'm trying to parent myself, replacing the negative " tapes " in my head

with positive reassurance. It's hard to undo years and years of bad

habits, essentially having my mother live in my head (ouch). It makes

me angry that she screwed up my emotional wiring so badly, and she

doesn't even recognize it.

qwerty

>

> It seems that a KO's experience of the BP parent is a lot different

> depending on whether you were mostly split white or black or

> somewhere in between. I am curious where most of us on this board

> stand (mostly white, mostly black or shift back and forth) and what

> you think of it.

>

> I've been consistently split black by nada my whole life. I have one

> memory where, for some unknown reason, I was briefly split white. It

> was weird.

>

> I was in my mid-20s and pursuing a career in law and politics.

> Casting had begun for the Gone with the Wind prequel or sequel. Nada

> was convinced that I would make the perfect Scarlett O'Hara. I can

> safely tell you that this is not the case - I had no acting

> experience (or desire to pursue that career) nor do I look like

> Scarlett aside from having dark hair. (Besides my natural

> disposition is that of the cranky, black haired girl, not a charming

> southern belle . During our telephone conversation, Nada just kept

> going on and on in the weirdest voice about how perfect I would be

> for the role and insisting that I try out for the part.

>

> As a split black, I can tell you what you probably already know - it

> hurts to feel like your own mother hates you (aside from brief

> delusions that you're Scarlett O'Hara). But, it also seems like it's

> easier to detach from nada - split whites seem to have more problems

> with enmeshment which was never an issue for me.

>

> What's your story? What are your thoughts?

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Recovering Non-BP

I had this sense, while reading your post, of fada feeding you to the

lion so he wouldn't get eaten. Sorry if that is too harsh. It just

seems like he was trying to protect himself under the guise of

the " son should love his mother " bs.

What struck me about your post is that your impulse was entirely

normal - a child should want and seek love and approval from its

mother. You shouldn't feel bad for desiring that - it's not your

fault that nada wasn't able to perform her end of the deal.

I took the rebel route from an early age - it has its drawbacks. My

natural reaction seemed to be " eff you nada " if you aren't going to

love me. But in large part that was just an act. Of course I wanted

her love and approval and still sought it (and, of course, didn't

receive it) well into adulthood when I knew better.

Also, how " normal " is it to pretend to accept the fact that your

mother hates you and just move on? Per my other posts, I'm dealing

with this now that nada had a heart attack. I feel like I've already

grieved her as if she has died, if she actually dies now what does it

matter. But, how healthy is my emotional deadness? It feels better

than being vulnerable to her nastiness, but it still doesn't feel

good.

Final thought - having a nada is like living with a super powerful

nuclear reactor emitting toxic rays. Our exposure to the rays

depends on the family situation. My dad didn't shield me from her

but he didn't use me as a shield from her either. And, my three

brothers absorbed a lot of the toxicity as well. In some sense I

was " lucky " that my exposure was mitigated by these factors.

It sounds like you got a full blast of toxic BP radiation your whole

life. I'm so sorry that you were treated this way and am sending you

a big electronic hug. Good for you for surviving this and learning

to cope with it in a positive manner.

MD

[Guest guest]

Hi Maternally Detached,

I just wanted to say that I'm thinking a lot about your post. You

asked " how normal is it to pretend to accept the fact that your

mother hates you and just move on? "

My, that's a good question. *giggles nervously*

I think it probably is " normal " but just not " common. " I think it's

healthy to accept what we can't change. For me, I have the chance to

create relationships with mother figures, friends, etc. that are

totally apart from my nada relationship (whereas I previously sought

out some people who would leave me or treat me badly). I don't have

that feeling with my nada - she doesn't really seem capable of

actual love or hate. I just feel that she used me as a punching bag

because I was there. I am wondering if anyone's nada actually

does " hate " them?

You said " It feels better than being vulnerable to her nastiness,

but it still doesn't feel good. "

I still have moments when I'm very sad, depressed, or angry about

the situation, (especially when it comes back into my life as a

result of some kind of event) but these are not often. But, most of

the time I feel good. I am thinking of the ambivalent feelings

toward my nada, and the bad feelings about the situation, as just

part of the downs and ups of my life.

- April

>

> Hi Recovering Non-BP

>

> I had this sense, while reading your post, of fada feeding you to

the

> lion so he wouldn't get eaten. Sorry if that is too harsh. It

just

> seems like he was trying to protect himself under the guise of

> the " son should love his mother " bs.

>

> What struck me about your post is that your impulse was entirely

> normal - a child should want and seek love and approval from its

> mother. You shouldn't feel bad for desiring that - it's not your

> fault that nada wasn't able to perform her end of the deal.

>

> I took the rebel route from an early age - it has its drawbacks.

My

> natural reaction seemed to be " eff you nada " if you aren't going

to

> love me. But in large part that was just an act. Of course I

wanted

> her love and approval and still sought it (and, of course, didn't

> receive it) well into adulthood when I knew better.

>

> Also, how " normal " is it to pretend to accept the fact that your

> mother hates you and just move on? Per my other posts, I'm

dealing

> with this now that nada had a heart attack. I feel like I've

already

> grieved her as if she has died, if she actually dies now what does

it

> matter. But, how healthy is my emotional deadness? It feels

better

> than being vulnerable to her nastiness, but it still doesn't feel

> good.

>

> Final thought - having a nada is like living with a super powerful

> nuclear reactor emitting toxic rays. Our exposure to the rays

> depends on the family situation. My dad didn't shield me from her

> but he didn't use me as a shield from her either. And, my three

> brothers absorbed a lot of the toxicity as well. In some sense I

> was " lucky " that my exposure was mitigated by these factors.

>

> It sounds like you got a full blast of toxic BP radiation your

whole

> life. I'm so sorry that you were treated this way and am sending

you

> a big electronic hug. Good for you for surviving this and

learning

> to cope with it in a positive manner.

>

> MD

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Maternally Detached,

I just wanted to say that I'm thinking a lot about your post. You

asked " how normal is it to pretend to accept the fact that your

mother hates you and just move on? "

My, that's a good question. *giggles nervously*

I think it probably is " normal " but just not " common. " I think it's

healthy to accept what we can't change. For me, I have the chance to

create relationships with mother figures, friends, etc. that are

totally apart from my nada relationship (whereas I previously sought

out some people who would leave me or treat me badly). I don't have

that feeling with my nada - she doesn't really seem capable of

actual love or hate. I just feel that she used me as a punching bag

because I was there. I am wondering if anyone's nada actually

does " hate " them?

You said " It feels better than being vulnerable to her nastiness,

but it still doesn't feel good. "

I still have moments when I'm very sad, depressed, or angry about

the situation, (especially when it comes back into my life as a

result of some kind of event) but these are not often. But, most of

the time I feel good. I am thinking of the ambivalent feelings

toward my nada, and the bad feelings about the situation, as just

part of the downs and ups of my life.

- April

>

> Hi Recovering Non-BP

>

> I had this sense, while reading your post, of fada feeding you to

the

> lion so he wouldn't get eaten. Sorry if that is too harsh. It

just

> seems like he was trying to protect himself under the guise of

> the " son should love his mother " bs.

>

> What struck me about your post is that your impulse was entirely

> normal - a child should want and seek love and approval from its

> mother. You shouldn't feel bad for desiring that - it's not your

> fault that nada wasn't able to perform her end of the deal.

>

> I took the rebel route from an early age - it has its drawbacks.

My

> natural reaction seemed to be " eff you nada " if you aren't going

to

> love me. But in large part that was just an act. Of course I

wanted

> her love and approval and still sought it (and, of course, didn't

> receive it) well into adulthood when I knew better.

>

> Also, how " normal " is it to pretend to accept the fact that your

> mother hates you and just move on? Per my other posts, I'm

dealing

> with this now that nada had a heart attack. I feel like I've

already

> grieved her as if she has died, if she actually dies now what does

it

> matter. But, how healthy is my emotional deadness? It feels

better

> than being vulnerable to her nastiness, but it still doesn't feel

> good.

>

> Final thought - having a nada is like living with a super powerful

> nuclear reactor emitting toxic rays. Our exposure to the rays

> depends on the family situation. My dad didn't shield me from her

> but he didn't use me as a shield from her either. And, my three

> brothers absorbed a lot of the toxicity as well. In some sense I

> was " lucky " that my exposure was mitigated by these factors.

>

> It sounds like you got a full blast of toxic BP radiation your

whole

> life. I'm so sorry that you were treated this way and am sending

you

> a big electronic hug. Good for you for surviving this and

learning

> to cope with it in a positive manner.

>

> MD

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,April.I hope you won't mind if I add my 2 cents-I was struck by a

question you asked in your post: " I am wondering if anyone's nada

actually does " hate " them? "

I can answer that in my case,yes,my nada really does hate me.

I agree with you that Maternally Detached posed a good question: " How

normal is it to pretend to accept the fact that your mother hates you

and just move on? "

I don't know if you can " just move on " or if it's even entirely

possible to accept that fact,pretending to or not.I mean,I don't know

if that is something ANYONE can accept.I can acknowledge it on an

intellectual level-yes,nada does hate me-but on an emotional level,I

want to perish the very thought.I catch myself at times wondering if

something my nada said or did was perhaps some indication that she

does after all hold me in some kind of esteem or that she does after

all feel something for me that would approximate affection,but I know

in my heart that I'm grasping at straws.

And can you see how nuts that is?! That I can't quite accept

emotionally that she really does simply dislike me (leaving out the

bizarre and twisted reasons why,that I can reason out intellectually

but my emotions in response just HURT) and yet within that hurt is my

own heart telling me that my suspicions are correct,yes,she does hate

me.Is that " normal " ? No!

I think this is how the pretzel logic of BPD messes with OUR

minds.There is nothing much " normal " about having a Borderline parent-

indeed most of it is tragically abnormal...especially when you have

been split black and are no longer even seen as fully human with all

the nuances and failings and clumsy good intentions of a regular

person;it all gets hideously skewed...There is no " normal " in that.I

doubt that you can ever " pretend " ,not fundamentally,only realize as

much as you are capable of realizing at any given moment that it

isn't " normal " from the standpoint of the human heart to " move on "

from being hated by your own mother.You can't just shrug it off-it's

too damned unpalatable.

And what that is,is a normal reaction to an abnoraml situation.I

know that,personally,I can't really accept that my mother hates me,on

an emotional level,because it's too wrong and too sick.It's inimical

to life itself.The only solution I've found so far is to respect what

my intellect is telling me while forgiving my heart for wanting to

hope and to cultivate goodness and optimism in other aspects of my

life.There is nothing I can do about both my nada's wilful

viciousness or about my own emotional need to disbelieve it-both are

just THERE.It's ok to just throw up your hands sometimes.That's what

makes us human.Some things in life have no real solutions.I say,thank

god for our intellect,because it spares us at times from what we

cannot bear.That is self-preservation and it's alright and it's REAL-

it is the only essential " moving on " .

April,you wrote that " It's healthy to accept what we can't change. "

Absolutely! An example of something we can't change-aside from our

nada's mental illness-is our own instinct for self-preservation.It's

as hard wired into us as our desire for solace and reassurance.

I'm done.Sorry,April,I've really come stamping my boots through your

original post-I got fired up by your question about nadas hating us-I

needed to vent and I apologize if I've come riding in on my high

horse...I think it's great that you can see the bad feelings as part

of the ups and downs of your life-that is wonderfully wise

> >

> > Hi Recovering Non-BP

> >

> > I had this sense, while reading your post, of fada feeding you to

> the

> > lion so he wouldn't get eaten. Sorry if that is too harsh. It

> just

> > seems like he was trying to protect himself under the guise of

> > the " son should love his mother " bs.

> >

> > What struck me about your post is that your impulse was entirely

> > normal - a child should want and seek love and approval from its

> > mother. You shouldn't feel bad for desiring that - it's not your

> > fault that nada wasn't able to perform her end of the deal.

> >

> > I took the rebel route from an early age - it has its drawbacks.

> My

> > natural reaction seemed to be " eff you nada " if you aren't going

> to

> > love me. But in large part that was just an act. Of course I

> wanted

> > her love and approval and still sought it (and, of course, didn't

> > receive it) well into adulthood when I knew better.

> >

> > Also, how " normal " is it to pretend to accept the fact that your

> > mother hates you and just move on? Per my other posts, I'm

> dealing

> > with this now that nada had a heart attack. I feel like I've

> already

> > grieved her as if she has died, if she actually dies now what

does

> it

> > matter. But, how healthy is my emotional deadness? It feels

> better

> > than being vulnerable to her nastiness, but it still doesn't feel

> > good.

> >

> > Final thought - having a nada is like living with a super

powerful

> > nuclear reactor emitting toxic rays. Our exposure to the rays

> > depends on the family situation. My dad didn't shield me from

her

> > but he didn't use me as a shield from her either. And, my three

> > brothers absorbed a lot of the toxicity as well. In some sense I

> > was " lucky " that my exposure was mitigated by these factors.

> >

> > It sounds like you got a full blast of toxic BP radiation your

> whole

> > life. I'm so sorry that you were treated this way and am sending

> you

> > a big electronic hug. Good for you for surviving this and

> learning

> > to cope with it in a positive manner.

> >

> > MD

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Qwerty,I just have to tell you that I've bookmarked this post of

yours-it's one of the most brilliant summations of being a KO that I

have read anywhere.No kidding,I sat here and applauded you after I

read it.You must be a writer-do you write elsewhere,aside from on

here? You express your ideas with rare talent and accuracy.I don't

think your rubber band ball metaphor is silly at all-I think it's

very apt.It's actually a perfect image,rubber bands that stretch and

can break if enough force is applied and yet in a rubber band

ball,there are so many of them,like you said,binding our

movements.Great metaphor! Bravo for hitting the bull's eye in

practically every sentence of your post-it really is brilliantly done-

wow!!!!

> >

> > It's not just that I had a terrible time

> > unmeshing from my nada for many years; it's what

> > I think is the reason for it: my fada. Thousands

> > of times, he sent and encouraged me to go back to

> > her physically (as a child), mentally,

> > emotionally and spiritually, mainly with his

> > mantra to me about her, said to me hundreds of

> > times: " Don't hate your mother. " Like I've

> > posted here before, that's exactly what I

> > SHOULD've done: hate her for the way she treated

> > me and allowed others to treat me, so that I

> > wouldn't internalize those feelings like he did

> > (his projection onto me from his abusive

> > childhood). That's what a child SHOULD do in

> > that kind of situation (not rebel, I mean a child

> > needs help to appropriately express their

> > feelings) or they'll end up as I did – with a

> > MOUNTAIN of rage that took me DECADES to work

> > out. (In case you're wondering what I did with

> > all that rage about her and the other FOO: for

> > decades, I turned almost ALL of it on myself,

> > internalizing it into various physical, mental,

> > emotional and spiritual illnesses. I rarely do

> > that in recent years, partly because almost all

> > of the rage is gone and because I know not to

> > turn it on myself.)

> >

> > Maybe I've already figured out the answer, but

> > I'd like your feedback: what are your ideas about

> > why I, a split-black, didn't start to unmesh from

> > my nada for so long? Did any of you have the

> > type of experience I had?

> >

> > One Non-BP Recovering Man

>