Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

[Guest guest]

Mark,

I find the opposite to be true...

Do you know how often I see fine cleaning in an IEP's protocol? Almost never. You know why because they can't get any mold remediation referrals if they do. IEP almost always overlook fine cleaning.

At our remediation company, we take pre-remediation baseline testing for all jobs no matter how small and then post-remediation testing and send to an independent lab.

Does the client need to hire an IEP to turn on a sampling pump? We can do this ourselves without an IEP's help.

Rosen

RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,

You said:

But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new.

The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation.

You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully.

Mark Doughty

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[Guest guest]

,

I believe legally every IEP or contractor that generates a scope of work assumes "all" the liability unless they have disclaimers (excepting health claims). I find it interesting at times to see IEP's defend their disclaimers in court or defend their verbiage.

ge

,

You are one of the gems in the industry. How many IEPs out there ...

assume the “risk and liability†for “all†scope writing

Rosen

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? :Much of what you point-out is very well said. Especially.. .â€We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the mark.†How true! And it is good that you don’t blindly follow the IEP’s protocol. More often than not, the IEP has no practical construction training or experience, has no clue how to write a construction/ demolition spec, and are themselves blindly following the arcane practice of 48inx48in removal on either side of a mold colony. Most IEPs are hated by the construction industry. Why? Because they have no clue what construction is. Thanks for your comments...

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[Guest guest]

,

I tried to read your post, but the words are garbled. I am not sure

what you are trying to say. It seems like you are trying say that you

have not seen a MoldDog work on a project.

The K9 is ideally suited for locating hidden sources of fungal growth.

My dog routinely finds reservoirs of mold growth that other inspectors

have missed. The dog can locate fungal growth behind dry materials

that do not show any outward sign of moisture intrusion.

Scoobie MD can accurately identify the location of any fungal growth

that you have encapsulated in a wall, no matter how airtight you may

think you have sealed the interstitial space.

Best Regards,

Doug Summers MS CIE

MoldDog Environmental

> >

> > In general, when an IEP does an assessment they do not open walls,

> remove baseboard, cut open AC ducts ... they usually only sample and

> take other measurements. Then when the test results come back from

> the lab they (some how) come up with a mold remediation protocol.

> >

> > The question is how often does a remediation contractor follow the

> IEP's recommendations?

> >

> > As a remediation contractor I find that less than 5% of the time is

> the IEP protocol on the money. Usually they tell you to take out too

> much drywall. If you assume that the protocol is on the money and you

> quote a job based on it, you will probably lose the job because your

> quote will be too high.

> >

> > The only way to tell how much mold is hiding in the walls is to open

> the walls. At that point you can develop the mold remediation

> protocol that makes sense for the job.

> >

> > Often times there is only mold behind the baseboard but the walls

> above the base are clear? Why remove 4 feet of wall board in that case?

> >

> > Quite often we see false positives on wall cavity sampling. There

> is zero mold elevation in the living spaces and a few dozen Pen/Asp in

> a wall cavity test (perhaps being sucked from the attic) and the IEP

> recommends removing 4 feet of wall.

> >

> > We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off

> the mark. We are up front with the homeowner about this issue before

> we start. Once in a while we lose a job because of it, but almost

> always the client understands that you will know best about these

> issues once the baseboard is off, or the walls are opened.

> >

> > We provide a final remediation certificate based on remediating the

> areas mentioned in the IEP report.

> >

> > Rosen, Ph.D.

> > AmIAQC C.I.E.C

> > www.Mold-Free. org

> >

> >

> >

> >

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

> > Never miss an email again!

> > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.

> > http://tools. search.yahoo. com/toolbar/ features/ mail/

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

> Looking for earth-friendly autos?

> Browse Top Cars by " Green Rating " at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.

> http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/

>

[Guest guest]

Bob/Ma.

Lets all share some of the "truths" from Bob's web site: http://www.environmentalairtechs.com

Air Duct Cleaning Benefits

Allergy relief - eliminates up to 82% of the mold, mildew and bacteria.

Since you are the keeper of truths ... can you let us know how you came up with this truth that after your company cleans air ducts 82% of the mold, mildew and bacteria are eliminated. Does that mean killed inside the ducts and the toxins and allergens left. Exactly what does "eliminate" mean. And where did the 82% "truth" come from. What type of testing did you do? Can you post the lab results? Sounds pretty bogus and unscientific to me.

Do you have a third party make this determination or does your company do their own evaluation about efficiency?

Rosen

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,I don't have the time, energy or inclination to invest any further in discussions with you on this topic. You win. You've worn me out. You are the man, the penultimate expert and we should all do everything exactly the way you do. Contractors who subscribe to your views, misconstrued facts, pretzel logic and the copious use of bleach are all that is necessary in this world for any purpose, including microbial remediation, brain surgery and curing cancer.Consultants (IEPs, CIHs, etc. etc. and any other designation) are nothing but incompetent, dishonest, moronic scroundrels, except of course for Ph.D.s.I give up.Chuck Reaney

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[Guest guest]

,

We don’t make the

big bucks ($$$) like some of the IEPs we know of, but we attempt to carefully

manage our projects. The basis of our company intellect: (1) we

are California licensed general contractors specializing in construction causation,

hazard and damage assessment, and ensuing damage; (2) we are California EPA

registered environmental assessors (REAs) specializing in chemical and

hazardous waste associated with buildings; (3) we are industrial and

environmental hygienists with university acquired education and certification; (4)

we are on several leading national technical committees including ASTM and

IICRC; (5) we teach, lecture and publish; (6) we are expert witnesses and

arbitrators when claims go wrong.

The only way we found to

cover our ass(ets) and make a profit at the end of the year, without a

tremendous dispute and arbitration problem, is to coach (not carry the football)

on every play that is made.

When our contractor,

insured and insurer all agree, the project has been completed

with the end-benefit of returning a contaminated or hazardous environment to its

pre-loss and healthy state; then we all win.

Moffett

From:

iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007

1:29 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,

You are one of the gems in the industry. How many IEPs out there

....

assume the “risk and

liability” for “all” scope writing

Rosen

Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

:

Much of what you point-out is very well said. Especially.. .”We

never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the

mark.” How true! And it is good that you don’t blindly

follow the IEP’s protocol. More often than not, the IEP has no

practical construction training or experience, has no clue how to write a

construction/ demolition spec, and are themselves blindly following the arcane

practice of 48inx48in removal on either side of a mold colony. Most IEPs

are hated by the construction industry. Why? Because they have no

clue what construction is. Thanks for your comments.

.

..

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[Guest guest]

,

Is there a warranty given? Who gives it you or the remediation contractor? What is stated in the warranty?

Rosen

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? :Much of what you point-out is very well said. Especially.. .”We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the mark.” How true!

And it is good that you don’t blindly follow the IEP’s protocol. More often than not, the IEP has no practical construction training or experience, has no clue how to write a construction/ demolition spec, and are themselves blindly following the arcane practice of 48inx48in removal on either side of a mold colony. Most IEPs are hated by the construction industry. Why? Because they have no clue what construction is. Thanks for your comments...

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[Guest guest]

,

You state:

However, if the mold remediation contractor is honest, he can do his own documentation to protect himself.

I get so tired of hearing contractors bashing

IEPs and IEPs bashing

contractors as being dishonest.  From my

perspective it has nothing to do with dishonesty.  It’s more about doing quality

work.  Could you imagine GM or Toyota not doing quality control inspections because their employees are

honest and don’t need follow-up.  

Most people are not dishonest and I resent

those that assume they are.  Verification

has more to do with quality control than honesty. 

Mark Doughty

[Guest guest]

ge,

It would be interesting to see how many agree with this. I would agree that this should be the case. However given how very cursory many if not most protocols are, I would guess that this would be the exception rather than the rule,

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? :Much of what you point-out is very well said. Especially.. .”We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is

usually way off the mark.” How true! And it is good that you don’t blindly follow the IEP’s protocol. More often than not, the IEP has no practical construction training or experience, has no clue how to write a construction/ demolition spec, and are themselves blindly following the arcane practice of 48inx48in removal on either side of a mold colony. Most IEPs are hated by the construction industry. Why? Because they have no clue what construction is. Thanks for your comments...

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[Guest guest]

It is my observation, that mold dogs are of no or minimal value to determine the extent of a problem for the purpose of writing a protocol to remediate the problem.

Rosen

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,I tried to read your post, but the words are garbled. I am not surewhat you are trying to say. It seems like you are trying say that youhave not seen a MoldDog work on a project. The K9 is ideally suited for locating hidden sources of fungal growth.My dog routinely finds reservoirs of mold growth that other inspectorshave missed. The dog can locate fungal growth behind dry materialsthat do not show any outward sign of moisture intrusion. Scoobie MD can accurately identify the location of any fungal growththat you have encapsulated in a wall, no matter how airtight you maythink you have sealed the interstitial space. Best Regards,Doug Summers MS CIE MoldDog Environmental> >> > In general, when an IEP does an assessment they do not open walls,> remove

baseboard, cut open AC ducts ... they usually only sample and> take other measurements. Then when the test results come back from> the lab they (some how) come up with a mold remediation protocol.> > > > The question is how often does a remediation contractor follow the> IEP's recommendations?> > > > As a remediation contractor I find that less than 5% of the time is> the IEP protocol on the money. Usually they tell you to take out too> much drywall. If you assume that the protocol is on the money and you> quote a job based on it, you will probably lose the job because your> quote will be too high. > > > > The only way to tell how much mold is hiding in the walls is to open> the walls. At that point you can develop the mold remediation> protocol that makes sense for the job.> > > > Often times there is only mold behind the baseboard

but the walls> above the base are clear? Why remove 4 feet of wall board in that case?> > > > Quite often we see false positives on wall cavity sampling. There> is zero mold elevation in the living spaces and a few dozen Pen/Asp in> a wall cavity test (perhaps being sucked from the attic) and the IEP> recommends removing 4 feet of wall.> > > > We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off> the mark. We are up front with the homeowner about this issue before> we start. Once in a while we lose a job because of it, but almost> always the client understands that you will know best about these> issues once the baseboard is off, or the walls are opened.> > > > We provide a final remediation certificate based on remediating the> areas mentioned in the IEP report. > > > > Rosen, Ph.D.> > AmIAQC

C.I.E.C> > www.Mold-Free. org> > > > > > > >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> > Never miss an email again!> > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.> > http://tools. search.yahoo. com/toolbar/ features/ mail/> >> > > > > > >____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> Looking for earth-friendly autos? > Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.> http://autos. yahoo.com/ green_center/>

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[Guest guest]

Mark,

When you say that you assume full liability and risk for jobs you write the procotol for ... what does that mean.? Do you actually have an insurance policy that backs you up. Do you provide a bond? Is there something tangible\? Can you send us a copy of a document that you provide your clients where you assume such liability and risk. How is this worded? Or is this all theory?

Rosen

RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,

You ask:

How many IEPs out there ...

assume the “risk and liability” for “all” scope writing

So if I read you correctly IEPs are dishonest and not will to accept liability for their actions. Bull manure.

IEPs are responsible for all of their actions regardless of their insurance status (as are you). The layers of your misconceptions are so deep that it’s no wonder you sound like you don’t know what you are talking about.

Mark Doughty

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[Guest guest]

,

Good question about

warranty.

All of our work is based

on a particular premise with the customer about their intended goals and how we

(as the environmental team, contractors and insurers) intend to achieve a state

or condition of customer acceptance. Therefore, the meetings that establish our

contractual presence set the tone for what we will or will not obligate our self

too.

In asbestos work, the

guarantee is fairly clear, there no longer exists an asbestos issue. However, in

the microbial world, where there is always a microbial ecology present, we attempt

to prove the “hypothesis;” there are no fungal and/or bacterial

anomalies at, near or within a particular environment on one or more days of

testing. In other words, our warranty statement is based on the initial

intended goals, and did we as the environmental team achieve those goals?

To avert a party who

attempts to read into our reports 6-months or a year later, we disclose in our

foundation report our “biases” involving inspection and testing, to

what we could do if money and time is not an obstacle. There is no quick answer

when it comes to conditional warrantees, because there is no warrantee that

accounts for conditions of a building or environment that change over time.

Moffett

From:

iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007

3:25 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,

Is there a warranty given? Who gives it you or the remediation

contractor? What is stated in the warranty?

Rosen

Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

:

Much of what you point-out is very well said. Especially.. .”We

never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the

mark.” How true! And it is good that you don’t blindly

follow the IEP’s protocol. More often than not, the IEP has no

practical construction training or experience, has no clue how to write a

construction/ demolition spec, and are themselves blindly following the arcane

practice of 48inx48in removal on either side of a mold colony. Most IEPs

are hated by the construction industry. Why? Because they have no clue

what construction is. Thanks for your comments.

.

..

Looking for

earth-friendly autos?

Browse Top Cars by " Green Rating " at Yahoo!

Autos' Green Center .

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guru.

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Don't pick lemons.

See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.

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fight? Enjoy some healthy debate

in the Yahoo!

Answers Food Drink Q & A.

[Guest guest]

,

Go it. That's more of less what we do, but you have stated it more elegantly than I ever could.

I have a hidden agenda for this train of thought. IAQA is attempting thru IESO to extend their standards regarding testing and other areas and are looking for suggestions. I would suggest that a goal of testing and protocol development is to be able to provide some sort of warranty.

I was hoping to accumulate some of the dialog on this subject and send it over to IAQA/IESO but most of what has come back is drivel with the exception of your responses. Apparently most IEPs want to be paid as expert consultants but don't actually provide warranties or guarantees for the work backed up by insurance.

When an IEP provides services that allow them to provide a guarantee and/or warranty then the IEP provides a service that can be explained. And he is adding true value.

If they can only provide the warranty/ guarantee if they are on-site during some or all of the remediation; or only if they are brought back after the remediation to test and verify that the work was done ... that is a good selling point. However in the case where an IEP does not have insurance that backs up the warranty, this is of no value whatsoever.

Dueo to the nature of our business here we deal with many people sick from mold. How do you guarantee/ warranty that the place will be free from mold spores, micro-particles and toxins so that they will no longer get sick. Are there other IEPs that will provide such warranties? Under what conditions?

Rose, Ph.D.

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? :Much of what you point-out is very well said. Especially.. .”We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the mark.” How true!

And it is good that you don’t blindly follow the IEP’s protocol. More often than not, the IEP has no practical construction training or experience, has no clue how to write a construction/ demolition spec, and are themselves blindly following the arcane practice of 48inx48in removal on either side of a mold colony. Most IEPs are hated by the construction industry. Why? Because they have no clue what construction is. Thanks for your comments...

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[Guest guest]

,

Here you go again. Rather than address the issue you redirect the

issue. We have been on this house once before or have you forgotten?

Maybe you need to reread the page. Do you understand " up to? " That

means anywhere from and below.

If you were ASCS certified you would know where it came from. ,

what kind of an engineer are you anyways? I know you are not a mold

engineer? I believe you have been asked this at least two to three

times now. I still haven't seen your reply other than you wrote a

book. Please don't distract form the question, just answer the

question!

Bob/Ma.

>

> Bob/Ma.

>

> Lets all share some of the " truths " from Bob's web site:

http://www.environmentalairtechs.com

>

>

> Air Duct Cleaning Benefits

>

>

>

> Allergy relief - eliminates up to 82% of the mold, mildew and

bacteria.

> Since you are the keeper of truths ... can you let us know how you

came up with this truth that after your company cleans air ducts 82%

of the mold, mildew and bacteria are eliminated. Does that mean

killed inside the ducts and the toxins and allergens left. Exactly

what does " eliminate " mean. And where did the 82% " truth " come

from. What type of testing did you do? Can you post the lab

results? Sounds pretty bogus and unscientific to me.

>

> Do you have a third party make this determination or does your

company do their own evaluation about efficiency?

>

> Rosen

>

>

>

> Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

>

> ,

>

> I don't have the time, energy or inclination to invest any further

in

> discussions with you on this topic. You win. You've worn me out.

You

> are the man, the penultimate expert and we should all do

everything

> exactly the way you do. Contractors who subscribe to your views,

> misconstrued facts, pretzel logic and the copious use of bleach

are all

> that is necessary in this world for any purpose, including

microbial

> remediation, brain surgery and curing cancer.

>

> Consultants (IEPs, CIHs, etc. etc. and any other designation) are

> nothing but incompetent, dishonest, moronic scroundrels, except of

> course for Ph.D.s.

>

> I give up.

>

> Chuck Reaney

>

>

>

>

>

_____________________________________________________________________

_______________

> Finding fabulous fares is fun.

> Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find

flight and hotel bargains.

> http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097

>

[Guest guest]

,

You're not acting very professional here. You seem to be going

beyond defending your position. It appears you are attacking

another's character. If you can defend your position, just attack

the other's character right?

,

Just because someone disagrees with you does not give you a license

to attack them personally.

Bob/Ma.

>

> Mark,

>

> When you say that you assume full liability and risk for jobs you

write the procotol for ... what does that mean.? Do you actually

have an insurance policy that backs you up. Do you provide a bond?

Is there something tangible\? Can you send us a copy of a document

that you provide your clients where you assume such liability and

risk. How is this worded? Or is this all theory?

>

> Rosen

>

>

> RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

>

> ,

>

> You ask:

>

> How many IEPs out there ...

>

> assume the " risk and liability " for " all " scope writing

> So if I read you correctly IEPs are dishonest and not will to

accept liability for their actions. Bull manure.

> IEPs are responsible for all of their actions regardless of their

insurance status (as are you). The layers of your misconceptions

are so deep that it's no wonder you sound like you don't know what

you are talking about.

> Mark Doughty

>

>

>

>

>

_____________________________________________________________________

_______________

> Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate

> in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q & A.

> http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list & sid=396545367

>

[Guest guest]

,

Do you have any evidence for your observation? I would love to review it.

Best Regards,

Doug Summers MS CIE

MoldDog Environmental

> > >

> > > In general, when an IEP does an assessment they do not open walls,

> > remove baseboard, cut open AC ducts ... they usually only sample and

> > take other measurements. Then when the test results come back from

> > the lab they (some how) come up with a mold remediation protocol.

> > >

> > > The question is how often does a remediation contractor follow the

> > IEP's recommendations?

> > >

> > > As a remediation contractor I find that less than 5% of the time is

> > the IEP protocol on the money. Usually they tell you to take out too

> > much drywall. If you assume that the protocol is on the money and you

> > quote a job based on it, you will probably lose the job because your

> > quote will be too high.

> > >

> > > The only way to tell how much mold is hiding in the walls is to open

> > the walls. At that point you can develop the mold remediation

> > protocol that makes sense for the job.

> > >

> > > Often times there is only mold behind the baseboard but the walls

> > above the base are clear? Why remove 4 feet of wall board in that

case?

> > >

> > > Quite often we see false positives on wall cavity sampling. There

> > is zero mold elevation in the living spaces and a few dozen Pen/Asp in

> > a wall cavity test (perhaps being sucked from the attic) and the IEP

> > recommends removing 4 feet of wall.

> > >

> > > We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off

> > the mark. We are up front with the homeowner about this issue before

> > we start. Once in a while we lose a job because of it, but almost

> > always the client understands that you will know best about these

> > issues once the baseboard is off, or the walls are opened.

> > >

> > > We provide a final remediation certificate based on remediating the

> > areas mentioned in the IEP report.

> > >

> > > Rosen, Ph.D.

> > > AmIAQC C.I.E.C

> > > www.Mold-Free. org

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

> > > Never miss an email again!

> > > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.

> > > http://tools. search.yahoo. com/toolbar/ features/ mail/

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

> > Looking for earth-friendly autos?

> > Browse Top Cars by " Green Rating " at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.

> > http://autos. yahoo.com/ green_center/

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

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> with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.

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>

[Guest guest]

Steve,

I don't know where lives and/or conducts business but I have

never seen a protocol where fine cleaning is involved. Maybe this is

why he is above the rest of all of us and is able to do everything

i.e. consulting, remediation, and clearance.

Seeing asked Mark for his Dec page, maybe would be so kind

as to send us a copy of your insurance policy that states he does

acts in all capacities of the project.

I do not know of an insurance company that would write such a policy

knowing the risk involved.

I wonder if he even has an SOP? and is/was it attached to his

application?

Bob/Ma.

>

> In a message dated 1/23/2007 6:56:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> garyrosen72652@... writes:

> > Do you know how often I see fine cleaning in an IEP's protocol?

Almost

> > never. You know why because they can't get any mold remediation

referrals if

> > they do. IEP almost always overlook fine cleaning.

> >

> What??!! EVERY scope I have ever seen prepared by an IEP calls

for

> damp-wiping and/or HEPA vacuuming of surfaces. I thought this was

the whole purpose of

> using a remediation contractor rather than a handyman to remove

mold. IEPs

> should not be getting mold remediation referrals at all, that's

the remediation

> contractor's job. The whole idea is to maintain the independence

of the two

> for better quality assurance.

>

> Steve Temes

>

[Guest guest]

,

Doug said the dog helps locate missed or hidden mold. I can accept

that due to the dog's abbility to pick up scent. I may not like the

idea of a dog doing my job but I can see it here.

Bob/Ma.

> > >

> > > In general, when an IEP does an assessment they do not open

walls,

> > remove baseboard, cut open AC ducts ... they usually only sample

and

> > take other measurements. Then when the test results come back

from

> > the lab they (some how) come up with a mold remediation protocol.

> > >

> > > The question is how often does a remediation contractor follow

the

> > IEP's recommendations?

> > >

> > > As a remediation contractor I find that less than 5% of the

time is

> > the IEP protocol on the money. Usually they tell you to take out

too

> > much drywall. If you assume that the protocol is on the money

and you

> > quote a job based on it, you will probably lose the job because

your

> > quote will be too high.

> > >

> > > The only way to tell how much mold is hiding in the walls is

to open

> > the walls. At that point you can develop the mold remediation

> > protocol that makes sense for the job.

> > >

> > > Often times there is only mold behind the baseboard but the

walls

> > above the base are clear? Why remove 4 feet of wall board in

that case?

> > >

> > > Quite often we see false positives on wall cavity sampling.

There

> > is zero mold elevation in the living spaces and a few dozen

Pen/Asp in

> > a wall cavity test (perhaps being sucked from the attic) and the

IEP

> > recommends removing 4 feet of wall.

> > >

> > > We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way

off

> > the mark. We are up front with the homeowner about this issue

before

> > we start. Once in a while we lose a job because of it, but almost

> > always the client understands that you will know best about these

> > issues once the baseboard is off, or the walls are opened.

> > >

> > > We provide a final remediation certificate based on

remediating the

> > areas mentioned in the IEP report.

> > >

> > > Rosen, Ph.D.

> > > AmIAQC C.I.E.C

> > > www.Mold-Free. org

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

> > > Never miss an email again!

> > > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.

> > > http://tools. search.yahoo. com/toolbar/ features/ mail/

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

> > Looking for earth-friendly autos?

> > Browse Top Cars by " Green Rating " at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.

> > http://autos. yahoo.com/ green_center/

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

_____________________________________________________________________

_______________

> No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go

> with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.

> http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail

>

[Guest guest]

,

You wrote:

There is no quick answer when it comes to conditional warrantees,

because there is no warrantee that accounts for conditions of a

building or environment that change over time.

Now that is the clause that I hear down the line. If the owners

don't have a problem from the onset, hey, who can apply liability

anyways?

The remediation contractor can say it was alright when I left it.

There are variables that are forever changing. How can you apply the

liability upon me?

Maybe the owner did something or should have done something. So is

there really any liability? Well maybe if it is discovered that the

remediation contractor did not address the moisture issue.

Bob/Ma.

>

>

>

>

> Gentlemen, continue to keep your insurances paid up if your going

to ignore

> an IEP's protocols. No, you should never blindly follow them, but

know your

> IEP and discuss the protocols and work with them before beginning

and ending

> the project. Many Remediation contractors are sadly disappointed

when we

> don't approve their payment when the extent of the work either

stops short

> or goes beyond the limits we call for.

>

> Ron

>

> _____

>

> From: iequality@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:iequality@

> <mailto:iequality %5d> yahoogroups. com] On Behalf

Of

> Geyer

> Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 9:23 PM

> To: iequality@yahoogrou ps.com

> Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

>

> :

>

> Much of what you point-out is very well said. Especially.. . " We

never

> blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the

mark. " How

> true! And it is good that you don't blindly follow the IEP's

protocol.

> More often than not, the IEP has no practical construction

training or

> experience, has no clue how to write a construction/ demolition

spec, and

> are themselves blindly following the arcane practice of 48inx48in

removal on

> either side of a mold colony. Most IEPs are hated by the

construction

> industry. Why? Because they have no clue what construction is.

Thanks for

> your comments.

>

> .

>

>

> .

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

> Looking for earth-friendly autos?

> Browse Top Cars by

>

<http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/;_ylc=X3oDMTE4MGw4Z2hlBF9TAzk3MT

A3MDc2B

> HNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDZ3JlZW5jZW50ZXI-> " Green Rating " at Yahoo!

Autos'

> Green Center .

>

>

> _____

>

> Be a PS3 game guru.

> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at

Yahoo! Games.

> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49936/*http:/videogames.yahoo.com>

>

>

> _____

>

> Don't pick lemons.

> See all the new 2007 cars

>

<http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc=X3oDMTE0OGRsc3F2BF9TAzk3MT

A3MDc2B

> HNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3Y2Fycw--> at Yahoo! Autos.

>

<http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc=X3oDMTE0OGRsc3F2BF9TAzk3MT

A3MDc2B

> HNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3Y2Fycw-->

>

>

> _____

>

> Food

>

<http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0

NTEwOAR

> fcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx?

link=ask & sid=39654

> 5367> fight? Enjoy some healthy debate

> in the Yahoo!

>

<http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0

NTEwOAR

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link=ask & sid=39654

> 5367> Answers Food Drink Q & A.

>

[Guest guest]

,

With all due respect, I didn’t ask

what your experience has been. 

It’s really irrelevant. 

What I said was that you missed a step: likely the most important step.  How could your find the opposite to be true?

Your side-stepping the issue.

Mark Doughty

Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Mark,

I find the opposite to be true...

Do you know how often I see fine cleaning in an IEP's

protocol? Almost never. You know why because they can't get any

mold remediation referrals if they do. IEP almost always overlook fine

cleaning.

At our remediation company, we take pre-remediation

baseline testing for all jobs no matter how small and then post-remediation

testing and send to an independent lab.

Does the client need to hire an IEP to turn on a

sampling pump? We can do this ourselves without an IEP's help.

Rosen

RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,

You said:

But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove

water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new.

The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can

document the work with picturesd during the remediation.

You missed the most important part, the

part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why

someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem,

hopefully.

Mark Doughty

Need Mail bonding?

Go to the Yahoo!

Mail Q & A for great

tips from Yahoo! Answers users.

[Guest guest]

,

Again, opinion doesn’t really matter

here.  It’s a legal fact under tort

and in some instance criminal law.  Why

do you think your opinion trumps hundreds of years of case law?  By the way, what makes you think you know the

contents of most protocols?  Are you

omnipotent?

Mark Doughty

Re:

When do you follow a IEP's

Protocol?

ge,

It would be interesting to see how many agree with

this. I would agree that this should be the case. However given how

very cursory many if not most protocols are, I would guess that this would be

the exception rather than the rule,

Re:

When do you follow a IEP's

Protocol?

:

Much of what you point-out is very well said. Especially.. .”We never blindly follow an IEP's

protocol. It is usually way off the mark.” How true!

And it is good that you don’t blindly follow the IEP’s protocol. More often than not, the IEP

has no practical construction training or experience, has no

clue how to write a construction/ demolition spec, and are themselves

blindly following the arcane practice of 48inx48in removal on either side of a

mold colony. Most IEPs are hated by the

construction industry. Why? Because they have no clue what

construction is. Thanks for your comments.

.

..

Looking for earth-friendly autos?

Browse Top Cars by " Green Rating " at Yahoo! Autos' Green

Center .

Be a PS3 game guru.

Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.

Don't pick lemons.

See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.

8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time

with theYahoo

! Search movie showtime

shortcut.

 

Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and

get answers from real people who know.

[Guest guest]

To no one in particular....

This tread, and the comments from all, reminds me of sitting on the side-lines listening to comments/arguments between men and women, engineers and contractors, IEPs and contractors, Mars and Venice. It is quite humorous. It is also apparent from comments from some of the IEPs who are not LICENSED, and not BONDED, as are contractors, that they do not have a clue with respect to what a contractor is burdened with, or why contractors like to get paid quickly, or why contractors get frustrated with weak protocols full of errors and omissions, lousy drawings, and incomplete specs. Contractors have a burden that is much more profound than any IEP has, and it is called the statute of limitations for latent construction defects; 10-yrs in California. Until the IEPs of the world spend some quality time fulfilling the role of a contractor, they will NEVER understand the contractor; and one group will speak from Mars and the other from Venice, and there will not be a consensus, and it will be ugly.

For all you on this list that are primarily IEPs....give a break. His comments provide a lot of practicality. Like him or not, he is providing a perspective that you can glean golden nuggets of wisdom from. OK...so he has said some bone-head things like “I don't see the big deal for a remediator to remove vapor barriers to better do their mold remediation work on the wood behind it.” IEPs don’t seem to know the virtues of vapor barriers either! Some IEPs don’t know what they are, where they are or where they should be, or the difference between a vapor barrier and a vapor retarder....but it IS important if you are modifying or altering a wall assembly and want to keep the water out!

IMHO, IEPs have forced themselves upon the construction remediation industry with insufficient homework, and an insufficient understanding of building science and construction materials, means and methods. We can thank the AIHA for that. Case in point, I recently posted a very baited question about mold growth between structural members of dimensional timber, and an IEP in this group said “Remove or replace (the double top plate) if blasting is not effective.” Now, I really wonder if he knew what he said and if he practices what he preaches. Blasting has no effect....unless he meant explosives. I assume he does not know what he speaks about because the double top plate in a stick-framed wall assembly is not an easy element to remove without totally demolishing the entire wall. He has no clue! In many instances IEPs provide little merit, they often provide insufficient and/or confusing guidance, and they cost money that could be better spent on the restoration effort. (Oh!..I can feel the tempers getting warm.) It is the conscientious contractor who is going to restore the structure back to a pre-loss condition with much more finesse and diligence than most IEPs can or will. Granted, there are some damn good IEPs practicing today, and they do a good job and provide a good service. But like the unethical contractors that seem to be in abundance, there are many more unqualified IEPs, or persons who call themselves IEPs. The IEP, assuming they are worth their salt (which is a big assumption) provides merit when factors are complicated and/or when the contractor is less than conscientious or ethical. seems to be very ethical. So is Pat Moffit. says most IEPs he encounters are incompetent; I will agree. Most IEPs on this post feel that most contractors are unethical cheats; and I agree that some are. Are IEPs really necessary when Suzie Q’s dishwasher busts a gut and floods the kitchen? Maybe yes....and maybe no.

Moreover, since when does mold clean-up REQUIRE an IEP? Some states (e.g., Texas) seem to feel it does, and I find this humorous and frustrating at the same time because I have yet to demolish a structure that didn’t have some evidence of mold growth and amplification somewhere within the structure, and I feel that all structures have mold. According to Sharon: “If in doubt, rip it out.” I ask...and who is gonna pay for it? I foresee every roofing tear-off in Texas now being a mold abatement effort, because most roof systems in Texas have a lot of mold on the surface, way more than 100-sq-ft (except in El Paso). What is the overall effect?.....It becomes much more costly to and Suzie Q Public to maintain their home, and restore their roof (to keep out the water), because now they have to hire a mold-IEP and a mold remediation contractor, in addition to their roofer; which is going to cost them plenty more money. Will and Suzie pay for and hire the best IEP available to them...Hell no!, they are going on the cheap. Which brings us back to ’s comments of doing work on the cheap. Tis the nature of construction and contracting, i.e., too many Owners have champagne tastes but a beer budget. But this is life as we know it. Contractors cannot perform miracles, and the IEP community needs to understand this. One IEP on this post recently said in relation to IICRCs recommendations based on source removal “No where do you see the IICRC say or stating it depends on the cost.” EXCUSE ME! Everything depends upon cost, and to state differently is to be blind to the practical aspects of life! It is also why I feel IICRC’s S520 lacks some practicality.

Because of this discord between the environmentalists and the contractors, and the cost associated with it, the insurance industry is now excluding all water losses from our insurance policies; coverage that we used to have and rely on. All because of the mold panic that exists today. Again, thank you AIHA. It is a vicious cycle, and the perpetuation of which is going to harm all of us if we don’t restore the practicality and common sense. Why can’t people remove their mold without and IEP? Will it boil down to calling an IEP when the bread gets moldy?, the orange in the fruit bowl has a spot of penicillin?, when a mold colony of Stachy develops around a drip from an angle valve under the kitchen sink? I hear analogies of justification using sewage events, or radon, or asbestos. I am one to disagree....mold is different.

Yes...IEPs and contractors speak in different tongues and have different agendas. Until we cohesively begin to work together, to understand and to compliment each other’s practice AND to lower the cost of mold remediation, we are all going to be at each other’s throats and continue the finger pointing of who is to blame for the mess we are now in.

OK...I said my piece. Time to go to bed. It been grand, thanks.

,

My point exactly…. Look at what you stated:

That's why on page 31 of S520 it says (paragraph 6) " Deciding if and when an IEP is required on any mold remediation project is subject to the sound professional judgment of the remediator ...

Myself being the IEP when the walls are open and prior to any alterations being attempted, I want to personally inspect the opened cavity(ies). How often have you heard of a remediation contractor just wanting to get paid? Therefore has the Remediator have any bias? Absolutely, being paid quickly. Some have informed the owner the mold is all cleaned up.

I have one right now where the Remediator did not even follow protocol never mind the specifications drawn up by the former IEP (who appears to be in too tight a relationship with the Remediator). Should we say no independent IEP is required here? It could have been a simple remediation job, but due to no one watching (except the owner and their camera) who would have known? The Remediator never installed the negative air, adequate containments, nor did he monitor the engineering controls to determine the overall effectiveness.

Are these conditions rare; I doubt it due to the low bids going on out there. The company will make money some way or another and you can be sure something will be eliminated.

The “sound judgment” of the Remediator is what needs to be confirmed.

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 11:36 AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Bob/Ma.

I am a builder. I can build an entire house and provide a warranty. That is the way it is all over the country. But according to an IEP, if a contractor removes some water damaged drywall and replaces it with new material, a independent consulting IEP needs to come out and inspect the work to make sure of what exactly? That the drywall was replaced with new drywall?

So the contractor can only warranty his work if he builds an entire house but not if he replaces some drywall?

Some times jobs are complex and no doubt a 2nd opinion is useful. But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new.

The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation.

Integrity and insurance cover you for such work. That's why on page 31 of S520 it says (paragraph 6) " Deciding if and when an IEP is required on any mold remediation project is subject to the sound professional judgment of the remediator ...

Rosen

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Ron:

I figured some folks would take exception to what I wrote, and you were the first to take the bait!

Let me reiterate... ..many IEPs, and probably most of them, have no practical construction training or experience. Some do and they are the gems and some of those gems are on this list, but many IEPs don’t! Mold remediation is often construction- demolition, and few IEPs know how to write a construction spec. Moreover, unless the IEP is a licensed engineer, their spec had better not involve any structural components; otherwise they are guilty of professional negligence. Are you aware that sheetrock, in many structures built prior to 1980, is a structural component of the wall assembly and it requires an engineer’s evaluation and proper sequencing prior to removal? I know of two structures that have collapsed because a remediation contractor (blindly) followed an IEPs spec and remove too much sheetrock at one time. What about the IEP that specifies that dimensional timber needs to be scrubbed free of mold, and if not possible, the member must be removed! I’ve seen this in IEPs specs, and I have seen the remediation contractor blindly follow the spec, and then the shit hits the fan because a structural member is removed without proper shoring and there is structural damage. What about the IEP that specifies drywall and wet insulation be removed from an exterior wall cavity and all other materials that have mold on them, and the remediation contractor removes the vapor barrier from the INSIDE!. The IEP and contractor have just created a HUGE construction defect, and I hear this being done over and over and over. It is just plain negligence!! ! And, more often than not, when the defect/damage is pointed out to the IEP, I hear the IEP say, and I quote, “The remediator is a contractor, and he should have known what to do.” My response is always....Yes, and so should you! Yes....I agree with you, continue to keep your insurance premiums paid up, because many piss-poor IEPs are roaming the streets masquerading as mold remediation professionals, and mandating that the remediation contractor follow their piss-poor construction specs. The good contractors, as pointed out, will do what is right, and not blindly begin demolishing a structure based on poor guidance.

For what it is worth....

[Guest guest]

Pat:

I got a real laff out of your post, and appreciate you providing it. Few people know that I have a BS in Soil Science, with emphasis in soil micro and soil chemistry. To hear that a (fellow) CIH recommended “all soil is to be removed” after a sewage loss in a crawlspace was more than humorous. Not to mention, what is suppose to support the foundation after all the soil is removed? I recall a project, and being asked to counter a CIH who recommend that the soil in a crawlspace be treated with bleach, after a sewage release, to, in effect, sterilize the soil. Nothing doing, not to mention it is illegal to do so in any quantity. It is also a crock when someone wants to test soil for coliform bacteria.....the soil is full of them even without a sewage loss. Thanks for the funny.

,

I agree with you that this issue of when to use an IEP, to the expertise of an IEP, is poorly understood. Right now, we are in the Wild West, where everyone makes up his or her own IEP inspection, remediation direction and clearance criteria.

For example, in a sewage project under a crawlspace, the CIH said, “all soil is to be removed.” I am sure they did not mean “all soil.” In fact, further investigation of the project found expansive clay soil where to month-long sewage overflow in a 1,000 square foot crawlspace was in the matrix of the clay-base soil to about 2-4 feet deep. The clay-base soil could not be removed. The general expertise of the CIH was not in question because they provided some valuable information. However, their training and experience for managing this type of loss was severely lacking.

Currently, my company as an IEP, assumes the “risk and liability” for “all” scope writing; direction to the customer, contractor and insurance adjuster; baseline environmental characterization; project management and oversight of the demolition, cleaning and disinfection required; to written reports about how we gained closure on the project.

I would expect no less from any other environmental or third party IEP.

Moffett

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 8:36 AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Bob/Ma.

I am a builder. I can build an entire house and provide a warranty. That is the way it is all over the country. But according to an IEP, if a contractor removes some water damaged drywall and replaces it with new material, a independent consulting IEP needs to come out and inspect the work to make sure of what exactly? That the drywall was replaced with new drywall?

So the contractor can only warranty his work if he builds an entire house but not if he replaces some drywall?

Some times jobs are complex and no doubt a 2nd opinion is useful. But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new.

The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation.

Integrity and insurance cover you for such work. That's why on page 31 of S520 it says (paragraph 6) " Deciding if and when an IEP is required on any mold remediation project is subject to the sound professional judgment of the remediator ...

Rosen

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Ron:

I figured some folks would take exception to what I wrote, and you were the first to take the bait!

Let me reiterate... ..many IEPs, and probably most of them, have no practical construction training or experience. Some do and they are the gems and some of those gems are on this list, but many IEPs don’t! Mold remediation is often construction- demolition, and few IEPs know how to write a construction spec. Moreover, unless the IEP is a licensed engineer, their spec had better not involve any structural components; otherwise they are guilty of professional negligence. Are you aware that sheetrock, in many structures built prior to 1980, is a structural component of the wall assembly and it requires an engineer’s evaluation and proper sequencing prior to removal? I know of two structures that have collapsed because a remediation contractor (blindly) followed an IEPs spec and remove too much sheetrock at one time. What about the IEP that specifies that dimensional timber needs to be scrubbed free of mold, and if not possible, the member must be removed! I’ve seen this in IEPs specs, and I have seen the remediation contractor blindly follow the spec, and then the shit hits the fan because a structural member is removed without proper shoring and there is structural damage. What about the IEP that specifies drywall and wet insulation be removed from an exterior wall cavity and all other materials that have mold on them, and the remediation contractor removes the vapor barrier from the INSIDE!. The IEP and contractor have just created a HUGE construction defect, and I hear this being done over and over and over. It is just plain negligence!! ! And, more often than not, when the defect/damage is pointed out to the IEP, I hear the IEP say, and I quote, “The remediator is a contractor, and he should have known what to do.” My response is always....Yes, and so should you! Yes....I agree with you, continue to keep your insurance premiums paid up, because many piss-poor IEPs are roaming the streets masquerading as mold remediation professionals, and mandating that the remediation contractor follow their piss-poor construction specs. The good contractors, as pointed out, will do what is right, and not blindly begin demolishing a structure based on poor guidance.

For what it is worth....

[Guest guest]

Dana,

Now that you are back in your seat after your ROFL experience, I have some serious questions for you.

What percentage of homeowner-paid-for mold remediation projects do you think are done by licensed professionals according to the regulations? My sense from working with homeowners for many years is that most would consider the cost to be way too high to do it legal-like, IF they had the money.

I would guess that more than half of the homeowner jobs are done by folks who have "gone underground". When the right way or the legal way is cost prohibitive, it will almost always be done some other way.

If I were the homeowner who had just received a $5-10K proposal from a licensed assessor or remediator to perform a basic remediation in full compliance with Texas law, I would probably say "Thank you, let me think about it" to him and say "Screw that!" to myself. I might go to the local building supply house for new materials, tape and plastic sheeting and the corner "muster point" to pick up a couple of day laborers.

What percentage of proposals issued by Texas mold consulting and remediation firms do you think are accepted by homeowners?

Have the regulations actually improved the quality of the mold remediation work being done or just driven the work underground?

Have the regulations actually benefitted public health as intended by the legislature or resulted in more mold remediation being performed by unqualifed professionals and homeowners.

Maybe "the joke" is on the firms who can't sell their services because of inflated costs due to the regs and on the legislature who has created a legal environment that forces untrained and unqualified homeowners to botch the jobs themselves.

Before you talk about the good things the regs have done, let's do a real world review of what the consequences of adopting the Texas mold regs have actually been from an economic and public health perspective. Maybe it's not so funny.

Seriously,

Steve Temes

I had to pick myself up off the floor from a hysterical laughing

attack brought on by reading these posts and the bandying about for

and against. WHY was I left in a fit of laughter? TEXAS REGS!!! Ta

DAA! For all the crap I heard reaped on the Texas Mold Regulations,

and all the criticisms of said regulation and the KNOWN shortcomings

ot the Texas regulations, it left me laughing wildly. THANK YOU for

that.

IN short, and after attending a couple of conferences and hearing how

bad the Texas Regs are, it showed me how VALUABLE some form of

regulation is. I have also learned from clients that have taken our

Texas Approved set of courses that do work out of state that their

clients now use the Texas Regs as a guideline. I suggest that you do

as well as the topic is "WHEN DO YOU FOLLOW A IEP'S PROTOCOL? Well,

in Texas ... always. All the stuff stated here on the incompleteness

of the professional's assessment in terms of clearance or estimation

of size and types of remediatin methods to employ in each room must

be done BY THE LICENSED MOLD ASSESSMENT CONSULTANT prior to the

remediation AND develope a MOLD REMEDIATION PROTOCOL delivered to the

client prior to the remediation. the LICENSED MOLD REMEDIATION

CONRTRACTOR must then write a MOLD REMEDIATION PLAN based on and

addressing the Mold Remediation Protocol.

All is spelled out BEFORE actions are taken. ALL the mold AND the

SOURCE of the water needs to be addresses as well.

I suggest someone start looking at the good things in the Texas Mold

Rules, instead of knocking them just because Professionals do not

want to take another class or pay a state licensing fee to do

business. That my friends it the cost of doing business. At least

Texas gave us some horizon to shoot for. I suggest that the indoor

air quality associations take another look at the Texas Regs, instead

of dismissing them outright.

[Guest guest]

,

We are not talking about insurance or bonding

we are talking about legal responsibility (your statement, not mine).  Don’t try to change the subject.  In a court of law your opinion about this

issue really doesn’t matter.

The issue of insurance is irrelevant.  For your information, I have paid enough in

insurance premiums over the years to buy a really nice house.  I’ve never had a claim filed against

me. I like to think that is because I know what I’m talking about and I

never let problems get out of hand. 

There are many very good consultants that do not and have not had

insurance for years.  The choice to

purchase insurance is a business decision, not an ethical one.  If that is an issue you want to pursue, I

think there is enough honesty on this list to give you wide latitude of opinion

on the subject. 

I don’t provide bonds because bonds

are generally provided by contractors. 

I’m not a contractor, and I’ve never been asked to post a

bond.  When I worked for a large company

that used to do public work we would occasionally have to post a bid bond or

security of 10% of the bid, but I do not do public or bid work.  My clients seek me out: I rarely have to look

for work.

I think my protocol is among the best that

I’ve ever seen.  I’ve spent a

significant amount of time (over 20 years) developing a bulletproof set of

documents.  Like , I

always work from a win-win position and work with all parties for a successful

outcome.  That’s why I’m a

professional and not a contractor.  If

you’d like to hire me to develop a scope of work for you I would be glad

to provide my professional documents.  If

not, sorry but you’ll just have to take my word for it. 

No, its not theory: nor opinion.  I tend to work with facts.  It’s a lot safer that way, and credibility

does not become an issue.

I have always maintained that

everyone’s opinion is valid.  Yours

included.  You probably have a lot of

experience and your experiences have helped you formulate those opinions.  The problem is that as a professional, you

need to work with facts.  While you are

entitled to your opinions, you are not permitted to throw your opinions out

there as fact.  If you do, you will be

challenged.  You seem to be a pretty

smart guy.  That doesn’t mean that

you are always right.  I come to this

list to get facts, not opinions.  I can

get opinions from my bartender.  You know

what they say about opinions.

If you want to proffer your opinions as

fact you should sell yourself on the Home Shopping Network. This forum is not

the place to sell opinions and you’re not doing very well with the people

that understand the facts. 

Most of the time, I choose to ignore your

arrogance and lack of understanding of the facts, but your noise to signal

ratio lately is so overwhelming that I thought I’d give your normal

rebutters a break for a while.  Sometimes

your lack of understanding is so great that I feel embarrassed for you,

especially since you offer yourself as a learned individual. 

I guess you’re known by the company

that you keep. In the circles that I travel in your opinions seem bizarre. 

I think I smell some toast burning.

Mark

Doughty                                           

Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Mark,

When you say that you assume full liability

and risk for jobs you write the procotol for ... what does that mean.? Do

you actually have an insurance policy that backs you up. Do you provide a

bond? Is there something tangible\? Can you send us a copy of a document

that you provide your clients where you assume such liability and risk.

How is this worded? Or is this all theory?

Rosen

RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,

You ask:

How many IEPs out there ...

assume the “risk and

liability” for “all” scope writing

So if I read you correctly IEPs are dishonest and not will to accept liability for

their actions. Bull manure.

IEPs are responsible for all of their actions

regardless of their insurance status (as are you). The layers of your

misconceptions are so deep that it’s no wonder you sound like you

don’t know what you are talking about.

Mark Doughty

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Just what homeowners have told me.

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,Do you have any evidence for your observation? I would love to review it.Best Regards,Doug Summers MS CIEMoldDog Environmental> > >> > > In general, when an IEP does an assessment they do not open walls,> > remove baseboard, cut open AC

ducts ... they usually only sample and> > take other measurements. Then when the test results come back from> > the lab they (some how) come up with a mold remediation protocol.> > > > > > The question is how often does a remediation contractor follow the> > IEP's recommendations?> > > > > > As a remediation contractor I find that less than 5% of the time is> > the IEP protocol on the money. Usually they tell you to take out too> > much drywall. If you assume that the protocol is on the money and you> > quote a job based on it, you will probably lose the job because your> > quote will be too high. > > > > > > The only way to tell how much mold is hiding in the walls is to open> > the walls. At that point you can develop the mold remediation> > protocol that makes sense for the job.> > > >

> > Often times there is only mold behind the baseboard but the walls> > above the base are clear? Why remove 4 feet of wall board in thatcase?> > > > > > Quite often we see false positives on wall cavity sampling. There> > is zero mold elevation in the living spaces and a few dozen Pen/Asp in> > a wall cavity test (perhaps being sucked from the attic) and the IEP> > recommends removing 4 feet of wall.> > > > > > We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off> > the mark. We are up front with the homeowner about this issue before> > we start. Once in a while we lose a job because of it, but almost> > always the client understands that you will know best about these> > issues once the baseboard is off, or the walls are opened.> > > > > > We provide a final remediation certificate based on

remediating the> > areas mentioned in the IEP report. > > > > > > Rosen, Ph.D.> > > AmIAQC C.I.E.C> > > www.Mold-Free. org> > > > > > > > > > > >> > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> > > Never miss an email again!> > > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.> > > http://tools. search.yahoo. com/toolbar/ features/ mail/> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> > Looking for earth-friendly autos? > > Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.> > http://autos. yahoo.com/ green_center/> >> > > > > > >____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.> http://mobile. yahoo.com/ mail>

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