Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

[Guest guest]

,

Utilizing a MoldDog to survey the project can result in a much more

accurate scope of work. Although I do agree that an invasive visual

inspection (opening the walls) does give the most accurate results.

I often use a boroscope to confirm the K9 alerts.

Doug Summers MS

MoldDog Environmental

>

> In general, when an IEP does an assessment they do not open walls,

remove baseboard, cut open AC ducts ... they usually only sample and

take other measurements. Then when the test results come back from

the lab they (some how) come up with a mold remediation protocol.

>

> The question is how often does a remediation contractor follow the

IEP's recommendations?

>

> As a remediation contractor I find that less than 5% of the time is

the IEP protocol on the money. Usually they tell you to take out too

much drywall. If you assume that the protocol is on the money and you

quote a job based on it, you will probably lose the job because your

quote will be too high.

>

> The only way to tell how much mold is hiding in the walls is to open

the walls. At that point you can develop the mold remediation

protocol that makes sense for the job.

>

> Often times there is only mold behind the baseboard but the walls

above the base are clear? Why remove 4 feet of wall board in that case?

>

> Quite often we see false positives on wall cavity sampling. There

is zero mold elevation in the living spaces and a few dozen Pen/Asp in

a wall cavity test (perhaps being sucked from the attic) and the IEP

recommends removing 4 feet of wall.

>

> We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off

the mark. We are up front with the homeowner about this issue before

we start. Once in a while we lose a job because of it, but almost

always the client understands that you will know best about these

issues once the baseboard is off, or the walls are opened.

>

> We provide a final remediation certificate based on remediating the

areas mentioned in the IEP report.

>

> Rosen, Ph.D.

> AmIAQC C.I.E.C

> www.Mold-Free.org

>

>

>

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

> Never miss an email again!

> Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.

> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/

>

[Guest guest]

not sure what would prompt one to submit a post of this type.

based upon your apparent contempt for IEPs, it's clear that you haven't worked with a good one, and/or you simply miss the point (i.e., the mutually beneficial and complementary roles of the consultant and the contractor).

this is a good example of the mindset that we as an industry have to get past in order to truly unify.

why? for the answer, I'd like to encourage everyone to read Barney Burrough's article "Unfinished Business: State of the Industry Address" in the Jan issue of IE Connections, here:

http://www.ieconnections.com/archive/jan_07/jan_07.htm#article9

thanks.

Wane

<><><><><><><><><><><> Wane A. Baker, P.E., CIH Division Manager, Indoor Air Quality MICHAELS ENGINEERING"Real Professionals. Real Solutions."

Phone , ext. 484 Cell Fax

mailto:wab@... On the web at: http://www.michaelsengineering.com

"To love what you do and feel that it matters - how could anything be more fun?" - Graham

>> In general, when an IEP does an assessment they do not open walls, remove baseboard, cut open AC ducts ... they usually only sample and take other measurements. Then when the test results come back from the lab they (some how) come up with a mold remediation protocol.> > The question is how often does a remediation contractor follow the IEP's recommendations?> > As a remediation contractor I find that less than 5% of the time is the IEP protocol on the money. Usually they tell you to take out too much drywall. If you assume that the protocol is on the money and you quote a job based on it, you will probably lose the job because your quote will be too high. > > The only way to tell how much mold is hiding in the walls is to open the walls. At that point you can develop the mold remediation protocol that makes sense for the job.> > Often times there is only mold behind the baseboard but the walls above the base are clear? Why remove 4 feet of wall board in that case?> > Quite often we see false positives on wall cavity sampling. There is zero mold elevation in the living spaces and a few dozen Pen/Asp in a wall cavity test (perhaps being sucked from the attic) and the IEP recommends removing 4 feet of wall.> > We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the mark. We are up front with the homeowner about this issue before we start. Once in a while we lose a job because of it, but almost always the client understands that you will know best about these issues once the baseboard is off, or the walls are opened.> > We provide a final remediation certificate based on remediating the areas mentioned in the IEP report. > > Rosen, Ph.D.> AmIAQC C.I.E.C> www.Mold-Free.org> > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________> Never miss an email again!> Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/>

[Guest guest]

,You don't consider the attic to be part of the building? So all mold there doesn't matter to you?Thats what I'm reading from your post.. correct me if I'm wrong...Please elaborate..

....

In general, when an IEP does an assessment they do not open walls, remove baseboard, cut open AC ducts ... they usually only sample and take other measurements. Then when the test results come back from the lab they (some how) come up with a mold remediation protocol.

The question is how often does a remediation contractor follow the IEP's recommendations?

As a remediation contractor I find that less than 5% of the time is the IEP protocol on the money. Usually they tell you to take out too much drywall. If you assume that the protocol is on the money and you quote a job based on it, you will probably lose the job because your quote will be too high.

The only way to tell how much mold is hiding in the walls is to open the walls. At that point you can develop the mold remediation protocol that makes sense for the job.

Often times there is only mold behind the baseboard but the walls above the base are clear? Why remove 4 feet of wall board in that case?

Quite often we see false positives on wall cavity sampling. There is zero mold elevation in the living spaces and a few dozen Pen/Asp in a wall cavity test (perhaps being sucked from the attic) and the IEP recommends removing 4 feet of wall.

We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the mark. We are up front with the homeowner about this issue before we start. Once in a while we lose a job because of it, but almost always the client understands that you will know best about these issues once the baseboard is off, or the walls are opened.

We provide a final remediation certificate based on remediating the areas mentioned in the IEP report.

Rosen, Ph.D.

AmIAQC C.I.E.C

www.Mold-Free.org

[Guest guest]

:

Much of what you point-out is very well said. Especially...”We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the mark.” How true! And it is good that you don’t blindly follow the IEP’s protocol. More often than not, the IEP has no practical construction training or experience, has no clue how to write a construction/demolition spec, and are themselves blindly following the arcane practice of 48inx48in removal on either side of a mold colony. Most IEPs are hated by the construction industry. Why? Because they have no clue what construction is. Thanks for your comments.

.

In general, when an IEP does an assessment they do not open walls, remove baseboard, cut open AC ducts ... they usually only sample and take other measurements. Then when the test results come back from the lab they (some how) come up with a mold remediation protocol.

The question is how often does a remediation contractor follow the IEP's recommendations?

As a remediation contractor I find that less than 5% of the time is the IEP protocol on the money. Usually they tell you to take out too much drywall. If you assume that the protocol is on the money and you quote a job based on it, you will probably lose the job because your quote will be too high.

The only way to tell how much mold is hiding in the walls is to open the walls. At that point you can develop the mold remediation protocol that makes sense for the job.

Often times there is only mold behind the baseboard but the walls above the base are clear? Why remove 4 feet of wall board in that case?

Quite often we see false positives on wall cavity sampling. There is zero mold elevation in the living spaces and a few dozen Pen/Asp in a wall cavity test (perhaps being sucked from the attic) and the IEP recommends removing 4 feet of wall.

We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the mark. We are up front with the homeowner about this issue before we start. Once in a while we lose a job because of it, but almost always the client understands that you will know best about these issues once the baseboard is off, or the walls are opened.

We provide a final remediation certificate based on remediating the areas mentioned in the IEP report.

Rosen, Ph.D.

AmIAQC C.I.E.C

www.Mold-Free.org <http://www.Mold-Free.org>

[Guest guest]

Gentlemen, continue to keep your insurances paid up if your going to ignore an IEP's protocols. No, you should never blindly follow them, but know your IEP and discuss the protocols and work with them before beginning and ending the project. Many Remediation contractors are sadly disappointed when we don't approve their payment when the extent of the work either stops short or goes beyond the limits we call for.

Ron

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of GeyerSent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 9:23 PMTo: iequality Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

:Much of what you point-out is very well said. Especially...”We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the mark.” How true! And it is good that you don’t blindly follow the IEP’s protocol. More often than not, the IEP has no practical construction training or experience, has no clue how to write a construction/demolition spec, and are themselves blindly following the arcane practice of 48inx48in removal on either side of a mold colony. Most IEPs are hated by the construction industry. Why? Because they have no clue what construction is. Thanks for your comments..

..

[Guest guest]

Gentlemen, continue to keep your insurances paid up if your going to ignore an IEP's protocols. No, you should never blindly follow them, but know your IEP and discuss the protocols and work with them before beginning and ending the project. Many Remediation contractors are sadly disappointed when we don't approve their payment when the extent of the work either stops short or goes beyond the limits we call for.

Ron

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of GeyerSent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 9:23 PMTo: iequality Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

:Much of what you point-out is very well said. Especially...”We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the mark.” How true! And it is good that you don’t blindly follow the IEP’s protocol. More often than not, the IEP has no practical construction training or experience, has no clue how to write a construction/demolition spec, and are themselves blindly following the arcane practice of 48inx48in removal on either side of a mold colony. Most IEPs are hated by the construction industry. Why? Because they have no clue what construction is. Thanks for your comments..

..

[Guest guest]

Group,

Here we go again...

This is (predictably) a bit long, so read it when you have time, or go get

a cup of coffee.

I'm going to reply point by point below. I can't figure out how an

educated person who is also a business owner can make such

statements & nonsensical " points " . Like Wane, I'm also at a loss as to

what the point of this post was in the first place, other than to express

contempt for consultants and for Dr. Rosen to again impress himself

with himself.

That being off my chest, my remarks:

> In general, when an IEP does an assessment they do not open walls,

> remove baseboard, cut open AC ducts ... they usually only sample and

> take other measurements. Then when the test results come back from

> the lab they (some how) come up with a mold remediation protocol.

Reply: " Somehow " ...I would think that someone with a Ph.D. would be

familiar with basic scientific protocols, and proper use of the english

language. Silly me. Using several types of collected data, which may

include all or a substantial portion of visual observations, information

gained through interview(s) regarding the history of the building, it's

occupants, and reasons for concerns; moisture readings, airborne

particle counts, relative humidity, and yes perhaps some sampling to

confirm or deny hypotheses developed regarding location, severity and

extent of microbial involvement, a capable consultant (IEP) will then

utilize this data in combination with intelligence, common sense and

experiential knowledge to draw reasonably accurate conclusions

regarding certain circumstances and outcomes.

The first is usually a reasonably accurate estimate of the locations,

extent, and severity of primary microbial amplification and reservoirs.

The second is usually a reasonable accurate estimate of the severity

and extent of secondary contamination resulting from the presence of

the primary factors.

>

> The question is how often does a remediation contractor follow the

> IEP's recommendations?

Reply: In my world, the client gets general information in the form of

recommendations in the assessment report. It is also stated in the

report that these recommendations ARE GENERAL, and are not to be

utilized, construed, or relied upon by the client, their representatives,

contractors, etc. as a Remediation Specification and Scope of Work.

Preparation of those documents is the next phase that the client can

choose to utilize my services to prepare, but is contingent upon also

utilizing my services for the performance of Project Management and

Oversight as well as for PRV sampling, analyses and interpretation.

In other words, , recommendations are general. If someone

wants the details, they have to agree to have me be involved from that

point through the conclusion of the project. If they so agree, then they

and the contractor get the details. If they don't, then they and the

contractor are on their own to muddle though. I do that purposely, so

that a CMIEP (Cro-Magnon Indoor Environmental Professional

(Consultant)), isn't hung out to dry and subject to liabilities resulting

from attempted cost-cutting measures by the client, or from the

ineptitude of the Neanderthal contractor.

> As a remediation contractor I find that less than 5% of the time is

> the IEP protocol on the money. Usually they tell you to take out too

> much drywall. If you assume that the protocol is on the money and you

> quote a job based on it, you will probably lose the job because your

> quote will be too high.

>

Reply: Any IEP that can't get closer than 5% should be doing

something else for a living. Unless of course, it's 5% of YOUR

approach and opinions, and not those based upon a complete study

and assessment as explained above.

In MY experience, an accuracy level of 85% - 95% is quite achieveable

by a capable CMIEP.

> The only way to tell how much mold is hiding in the walls is to open

> the walls. At that point you can develop the mold remediation

> protocol that makes sense for the job.

>

Reply: Granted, the only way to know with 100% certainty is to open

the walls, ceilings, remove finish flooring, sometimes subflooring, etc.

But we're talking about assessment by a CMIEP, NOT DEMOLITION!

As stated above, an accuracy level of 85% to 95% is quite achievable

by a competent CMIEP, as opposed to attempting to achieve 100% by

a Neanderthal contractor who shoots for 100% by performing total

demolition. Also, as somewhat of an aside, are you familiar with the

term " microscopic " ? Just because the microbials, or to put it in terms

that you can undersand the " MOLD " is not visible to the naked while

you're trashing the building with sledge hammers and sawsalls, doesn't

mean it isn't there!!

> Often times there is only mold behind the baseboard but the walls

> above the base are clear? Why remove 4 feet of wall board in that

> case?

>

Reply: Refer to " microscopic " above. Drywall is cheap, and comes in

4' x 8' sheets. Therefore it's also EASIER and therefore more

economical to replace 4' sections. Helloooo?? Anybody home?

> Quite often we see false positives on wall cavity sampling. There is

> zero mold elevation in the living spaces and a few dozen Pen/Asp in a

> wall cavity test (perhaps being sucked from the attic) and the IEP

> recommends removing 4 feet of wall.

>

Reply: What the hell is a false positive? It's either there in amplified

levels, or it's not! Why isn't something being drawn (sucked) from

another area (attic) information that can be somehow utilized, and that

the client shouldn't be made aware of?

> We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the

> mark. We are up front with the homeowner about this issue before we

> start. Once in a while we lose a job because of it, but almost always

> the client understands that you will know best about these issues once

> the baseboard is off, or the walls are opened.

>

Reply: You mean the client buys your line of inept BS, don't you?

Also, if you were involved in a bid process due to my preparation of a

spec & scope of work, going directly to the client would result in your

being placed on my permanent list of " Contractors Who no Longer

Exist on Planet Earth " .

> We provide a final remediation certificate based on remediating the

> areas mentioned in the IEP report.

Reply: I'm tingly all over. An actual CERTIFICATE?!?! Wow. Printed

up on your very own computer!! I'm truly impressed.

>

, I repeat from a previous post of mine to you. You and your type

are a big part of the PROBLEMS with this industry. Please, please, my

God, PLEASE stop deluding yourself and your clients (victims) with

your misunderstandings and misinformation.

I'm eternally grateful that I'm not a Ph.D., and I would think that those

who hold that designation and are capable should protest the fact that

someone like you somehow managed to acquire it.

In fact, I'm now re-thinking whether to cancel my application for a

CIEC! If someone with your views of this profession can get that

designation, how credible is it?? Also why in the hell do you WANT a

CIEC when you are a CONTRACTOR? How in the hell does AmIAQC

ALLOW a CONTRACTOR to acquire this designation?!?!?!?

There's ANOTHER point, and one that perhaps can be the answer to

related issues previously discussed. I present this question to the

group, and reply postings would be appreciated....

What about the AmIAQC and the IAQA stipulating that an individual

can hold certification designations in discliplines related ONLY to

contracting OR to consulting, and not BOTH? That would admittedly

present some delicate issues to the organizations to deal with, BUT it

would also further enhance the credibility of the organizations who

represent US, and help to further the credibility of the organizations

themselves and our particular certification designations.

May God, the AmIAQC and the IAQA have mercy on us all!!

Chuck Reaney CIAQetc. & CMIEP

__________________________________________________

Alpha Environmental, Inc.

Indoor Air Quality & Environmental Consulting

624 W. Saint s Dr.

Media, PA 19063

Phone: Fax: Cell:

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Ron:

I figured some folks would take exception to what I wrote, and you were the first to take the bait!

Let me reiterate.....many IEPs, and probably most of them, have no practical construction training or experience. Some do and they are the gems and some of those gems are on this list, but many IEPs don’t! Mold remediation is often construction-demolition, and few IEPs know how to write a construction spec. Moreover, unless the IEP is a licensed engineer, their spec had better not involve any structural components; otherwise they are guilty of professional negligence. Are you aware that sheetrock, in many structures built prior to 1980, is a structural component of the wall assembly and it requires an engineer’s evaluation and proper sequencing prior to removal? I know of two structures that have collapsed because a remediation contractor (blindly) followed an IEPs spec and remove too much sheetrock at one time. What about the IEP that specifies that dimensional timber needs to be scrubbed free of mold, and if not possible, the member must be removed! I’ve seen this in IEPs specs, and I have seen the remediation contractor blindly follow the spec, and then the shit hits the fan because a structural member is removed without proper shoring and there is structural damage. What about the IEP that specifies drywall and wet insulation be removed from an exterior wall cavity and all other materials that have mold on them, and the remediation contractor removes the vapor barrier from the INSIDE!. The IEP and contractor have just created a HUGE construction defect, and I hear this being done over and over and over. It is just plain negligence!!! And, more often than not, when the defect/damage is pointed out to the IEP, I hear the IEP say, and I quote, “The remediator is a contractor, and he should have known what to do.” My response is always....Yes, and so should you! Yes....I agree with you, continue to keep your insurance premiums paid up, because many piss-poor IEPs are roaming the streets masquerading as mold remediation professionals, and mandating that the remediation contractor follow their piss-poor construction specs. The good contractors, as pointed out, will do what is right, and not blindly begin demolishing a structure based on poor guidance.

For what it is worth....

--

Geyer, PE, CIH, CSP

President

KERNTEC Industries, Inc.

Bakersfield, California

www.kerntecindustries.com

Gentlemen, continue to keep your insurances paid up if your going to ignore an IEP's protocols. No, you should never blindly follow them, but know your IEP and discuss the protocols and work with them before beginning and ending the project. Many Remediation contractors are sadly disappointed when we don't approve their payment when the extent of the work either stops short or goes beyond the limits we call for.

Ron

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Geyer

Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 9:23 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

:

Much of what you point-out is very well said. Especially...”We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the mark.” How true! And it is good that you don’t blindly follow the IEP’s protocol. More often than not, the IEP has no practical construction training or experience, has no clue how to write a construction/demolition spec, and are themselves blindly following the arcane practice of 48inx48in removal on either side of a mold colony. Most IEPs are hated by the construction industry. Why? Because they have no clue what construction is. Thanks for your comments.

.

..

[Guest guest]

,

Please see my reply to .

I'm truly amazed by the apparent rampant ineptitude of the IEPs that

you have had contact with. If they have no experience or knowledge of

construction, they have no business in this business.

This provides even more reason for credibile certifications, and for the

issuing industry organizations to continue their efforts to ensure that

those that apply for and are granted certifications have the necessary

expertise.

This will help greatly in elimination of the certification mills that have

been so problematic for so long a time. Also, I repeat my strong

suggestion that certifications by the AmIAQC and IAQA be segmented

by demonstrated contractor or consultant expertise and designations,

and that none be issued that cross over.

Use of the term " IEP " itself should be eliminated, as it lends an

element of confusion and false credibility to anyone performing this

work, yet who hold no legitimate certifications.

Chuck Reaney

:

Much of what you point-out is very well said. Especially...²We never

blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the mark.²

How true! And it is good that you don¹t blindly follow the IEP¹s

protocol. More often than not, the IEP has no practical construction

training or experience, has no clue how to write a

construction/demolition spec, and are themselves blindly following the

arcane practice of 48inx48in removal on either side of a mold colony.

Most IEPs are hated by the construction industry. Why? Because they

have no clue what construction is. Thanks for your comments.

.

On 1/20/07 3:04 PM, " gary rosen "

wrote:

>

>

> In general, when an IEP does an assessment they do not open walls,

> remove baseboard, cut open AC ducts ... they usually only sample and

> take other measurements. Then when the test results come back from

> the lab they (some how) come up with a mold remediation protocol.

>

> The question is how often does a remediation contractor follow the

> IEP's recommendations?

>

> As a remediation contractor I find that less than 5% of the time is

> the IEP protocol on the money. Usually they tell you to take out

> too much drywall. If you assume that the protocol is on the money

> and you quote a job based on it, you will probably lose the job

> because your quote will be too high.

>

> The only way to tell how much mold is hiding in the walls is to open

> the walls. At that point you can develop the mold remediation

> protocol that makes sense for the job.

>

> Often times there is only mold behind the baseboard but the walls

> above the base are clear? Why remove 4 feet of wall board in that

> case?

>

> Quite often we see false positives on wall cavity sampling. There

> is zero mold elevation in the living spaces and a few dozen Pen/Asp

> in a wall cavity test (perhaps being sucked from the attic) and the

> IEP recommends removing 4 feet of wall.

>

> We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off

> the mark. We are up front with the homeowner about this issue before

> we start. Once in a while we lose a job because of it, but almost

> always the client understands that you will know best about these

> issues once the baseboard is off, or the walls are opened.

>

> We provide a final remediation certificate based on remediating the

> areas mentioned in the IEP report.

>

> Rosen, Ph.D.

> AmIAQC C.I.E.C

> www.Mold-Free.org <http://www.Mold-Free.org>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have never seen mold dogs as given an accurate idea as to scope of work.

Rosen

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,Utilizing a MoldDog to survey the project can result in a much moreaccurate scope of work. Although I do agree that an invasive visualinspection (opening the walls) does give the most accurate results.I often use a boroscope to confirm the K9 alerts.Doug Summers MSMoldDog Environmental>> In general, when an IEP does an assessment they do not open walls,remove baseboard, cut open AC ducts ... they usually only sample andtake other measurements. Then when the test results come back fromthe lab they (some how) come up with a mold remediation protocol.> > The question is how often does a remediation contractor follow theIEP's recommendations?> > As a remediation contractor I find that less than 5% of the time isthe

IEP protocol on the money. Usually they tell you to take out toomuch drywall. If you assume that the protocol is on the money and youquote a job based on it, you will probably lose the job because yourquote will be too high. > > The only way to tell how much mold is hiding in the walls is to openthe walls. At that point you can develop the mold remediationprotocol that makes sense for the job.> > Often times there is only mold behind the baseboard but the wallsabove the base are clear? Why remove 4 feet of wall board in that case?> > Quite often we see false positives on wall cavity sampling. Thereis zero mold elevation in the living spaces and a few dozen Pen/Asp ina wall cavity test (perhaps being sucked from the attic) and the IEPrecommends removing 4 feet of wall.> > We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way offthe mark. We are up front with the homeowner

about this issue beforewe start. Once in a while we lose a job because of it, but almostalways the client understands that you will know best about theseissues once the baseboard is off, or the walls are opened.> > We provide a final remediation certificate based on remediating theareas mentioned in the IEP report. > > Rosen, Ph.D.> AmIAQC C.I.E.C> www.Mold-Free. org> > > >____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> Never miss an email again!> Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.> http://tools. search.yahoo. com/toolbar/ features/ mail/>

Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.

[Guest guest]

Mold is not living space. It is outside the house.

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,You don't consider the attic to be part of the building? So all mold there doesn't matter to you?Thats what I'm reading from your post.. correct me if I'm wrong...Please elaborate.. ...

In general, when an IEP does an assessment they do not open walls, remove baseboard, cut open AC ducts ... they usually only sample and take other measurements. Then when the test results come back from the lab they (some how) come up with a mold remediation protocol.

The question is how often does a remediation contractor follow the IEP's recommendations?

As a remediation contractor I find that less than 5% of the time is the IEP protocol on the money. Usually they tell you to take out too much drywall. If you assume that the protocol is on the money and you quote a job based on it, you will probably lose the job because your quote will be too high.

The only way to tell how much mold is hiding in the walls is to open the walls. At that point you can develop the mold remediation protocol that makes sense for the job.

Often times there is only mold behind the baseboard but the walls above the base are clear? Why remove 4 feet of wall board in that case?

Quite often we see false positives on wall cavity sampling. There is zero mold elevation in the living spaces and a few dozen Pen/Asp in a wall cavity test (perhaps being sucked from the attic) and the IEP recommends removing 4 feet of wall.

We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the mark. We are up front with the homeowner about this issue before we start. Once in a while we lose a job because of it, but almost always the client understands that you will know best about these issues once the baseboard is off, or the walls are opened.

We provide a final remediation certificate based on remediating the areas mentioned in the IEP report.

Rosen, Ph.D.

AmIAQC C.I.E.C

www.Mold-Free. org

We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

[Guest guest]

,

You cannot get much construction knowledge in a 3-4 day course that teaches you "all you need to know" about mold assessment or mold remediation. I've got a free mold remediation workbook (download) on my web site that has detailed information about many construction techniques applicable to mold remediation and assessment. (I am a FLA licensed building contractor.) The work book has info about different types of drywall, insulation, and much info on moisture related construction defects.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Free.org

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

:Much of what you point-out is very well said. Especially.. .”We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the mark.” How true! And it is good that you don’t blindly follow the IEP’s protocol. More often than not, the IEP has no practical construction training or experience, has no clue how to write a construction/ demolition spec, and are themselves blindly following the arcane practice of 48inx48in removal on either side of a mold colony. Most IEPs are hated by the construction industry. Why? Because they have no clue what construction is. Thanks for your comments..On 1/20/07 3:04 PM, "gary rosen" <garyrosen72652@ yahoo.com> wrote:

In general, when an IEP does an assessment they do not open walls, remove baseboard, cut open AC ducts ... they usually only sample and take other measurements. Then when the test results come back from the lab they (some how) come up with a mold remediation protocol. The question is how often does a remediation contractor follow the IEP's recommendations? As a remediation contractor I find that less than 5% of the time is the IEP protocol on the money. Usually they tell you to take out too much drywall. If you assume that the protocol is on the money and you quote a job based on it, you will probably lose the job because your quote will be too high. The only way to tell how much mold is hiding in the walls is to open the walls. At that point you can develop the mold remediation protocol that makes sense for the

job. Often times there is only mold behind the baseboard but the walls above the base are clear? Why remove 4 feet of wall board in that case? Quite often we see false positives on wall cavity sampling. There is zero mold elevation in the living spaces and a few dozen Pen/Asp in a wall cavity test (perhaps being sucked from the attic) and the IEP recommends removing 4 feet of wall. We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the mark. We are up front with the homeowner about this issue before we start. Once in a while we lose a job because of it, but almost always the client understands that you will know best about these issues once the baseboard is off, or the walls are opened. We provide a final remediation certificate based on remediating the areas mentioned in the IEP report. Rosen, Ph.D.AmIAQC C.I.E.Cwww.Mold-Free. org <http://www.Mold- Free.org>

We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

[Guest guest]

>>In other words, , recommendations are general. If someone >>wants the details, they have to agree to have me be involved from that >>point through the conclusion of the project.

Got it. They pay you for the general recommendations which have no value unless they pay you some more and have you involved from that point thru the conclusion.

That's an outstanding business model. You get alot of insurance work?

Rosen

Group,Here we go again...This is (predictably) a bit long, so read it when you have time, or go get a cup of coffee.I'm going to reply point by point below. I can't figure out how an educated person who is also a business owner can make such statements & nonsensical "points". Like Wane, I'm also at a loss as to what the point of this post was in the first place, other than to express contempt for consultants and for Dr. Rosen to again impress himself with himself.That being off my chest, my remarks:> In general, when an IEP does an assessment they do not open walls,> remove baseboard, cut open AC ducts ... they usually only sample and> take other measurements. Then when the test results come back from> the lab they (some how) come up with a mold remediation protocol.Reply: "Somehow"... I would think that someone with a

Ph.D. would be familiar with basic scientific protocols, and proper use of the english language. Silly me. Using several types of collected data, which may include all or a substantial portion of visual observations, information gained through interview(s) regarding the history of the building, it's occupants, and reasons for concerns; moisture readings, airborne particle counts, relative humidity, and yes perhaps some sampling to confirm or deny hypotheses developed regarding location, severity and extent of microbial involvement, a capable consultant (IEP) will then utilize this data in combination with intelligence, common sense and experiential knowledge to draw reasonably accurate conclusions regarding certain circumstances and outcomes.The first is usually a reasonably accurate estimate of the locations, extent, and severity of primary microbial amplification and reservoirs. The second is usually a

reasonable accurate estimate of the severity and extent of secondary contamination resulting from the presence of the primary factors.>> The question is how often does a remediation contractor follow the> IEP's recommendations?Reply: In my world, the client gets general information in the form of recommendations in the assessment report. It is also stated in the report that these recommendations ARE GENERAL, and are not to be utilized, construed, or relied upon by the client, their representatives, contractors, etc. as a Remediation Specification and Scope of Work.Preparation of those documents is the next phase that the client can choose to utilize my services to prepare, but is contingent upon also utilizing my services for the performance of Project Management and Oversight as well as for PRV sampling, analyses and interpretation.In other words, , recommendations are general. If

someone wants the details, they have to agree to have me be involved from that point through the conclusion of the project. If they so agree, then they and the contractor get the details. If they don't, then they and the contractor are on their own to muddle though. I do that purposely, so that a CMIEP (Cro-Magnon Indoor Environmental Professional (Consultant) ), isn't hung out to dry and subject to liabilities resulting from attempted cost-cutting measures by the client, or from the ineptitude of the Neanderthal contractor.> As a remediation contractor I find that less than 5% of the time is> the IEP protocol on the money. Usually they tell you to take out too> much drywall. If you assume that the protocol is on the money and you> quote a job based on it, you will probably lose the job because your> quote will be too high. > Reply: Any IEP that can't get closer than 5% should be doing

something else for a living. Unless of course, it's 5% of YOUR approach and opinions, and not those based upon a complete study and assessment as explained above.In MY experience, an accuracy level of 85% - 95% is quite achieveable by a capable CMIEP.> The only way to tell how much mold is hiding in the walls is to open> the walls. At that point you can develop the mold remediation> protocol that makes sense for the job.> Reply: Granted, the only way to know with 100% certainty is to open the walls, ceilings, remove finish flooring, sometimes subflooring, etc. But we're talking about assessment by a CMIEP, NOT DEMOLITION!As stated above, an accuracy level of 85% to 95% is quite achievable by a competent CMIEP, as opposed to attempting to achieve 100% by a Neanderthal contractor who shoots for 100% by performing total demolition. Also, as somewhat of an aside, are you familiar with the

term "microscopic" ? Just because the microbials, or to put it in terms that you can undersand the "MOLD" is not visible to the naked while you're trashing the building with sledge hammers and sawsalls, doesn't mean it isn't there!!> Often times there is only mold behind the baseboard but the walls> above the base are clear? Why remove 4 feet of wall board in that> case?> Reply: Refer to "microscopic" above. Drywall is cheap, and comes in 4' x 8' sheets. Therefore it's also EASIER and therefore more economical to replace 4' sections. Helloooo?? Anybody home?> Quite often we see false positives on wall cavity sampling. There is> zero mold elevation in the living spaces and a few dozen Pen/Asp in a> wall cavity test (perhaps being sucked from the attic) and the IEP> recommends removing 4 feet of wall.> Reply: What the hell is a false positive? It's either there in

amplified levels, or it's not! Why isn't something being drawn (sucked) from another area (attic) information that can be somehow utilized, and that the client shouldn't be made aware of?> We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the> mark. We are up front with the homeowner about this issue before we> start. Once in a while we lose a job because of it, but almost always> the client understands that you will know best about these issues once> the baseboard is off, or the walls are opened.> Reply: You mean the client buys your line of inept BS, don't you? Also, if you were involved in a bid process due to my preparation of a spec & scope of work, going directly to the client would result in your being placed on my permanent list of "Contractors Who no Longer Exist on Planet Earth".> We provide a final remediation certificate based on remediating

the> areas mentioned in the IEP report. Reply: I'm tingly all over. An actual CERTIFICATE? !?! Wow. Printed up on your very own computer!! I'm truly impressed.> , I repeat from a previous post of mine to you. You and your type are a big part of the PROBLEMS with this industry. Please, please, my God, PLEASE stop deluding yourself and your clients (victims) with your misunderstandings and misinformation.I'm eternally grateful that I'm not a Ph.D., and I would think that those who hold that designation and are capable should protest the fact that someone like you somehow managed to acquire it.In fact, I'm now re-thinking whether to cancel my application for a CIEC! If someone with your views of this profession can get that designation, how credible is it?? Also why in the hell do you WANT a CIEC when you are a CONTRACTOR? How in the hell does AmIAQC ALLOW a CONTRACTOR to acquire this

designation? !?!?!?There's ANOTHER point, and one that perhaps can be the answer to related issues previously discussed. I present this question to the group, and reply postings would be appreciated. ...What about the AmIAQC and the IAQA stipulating that an individual can hold certification designations in discliplines related ONLY to contracting OR to consulting, and not BOTH? That would admittedly present some delicate issues to the organizations to deal with, BUT it would also further enhance the credibility of the organizations who represent US, and help to further the credibility of the organizations themselves and our particular certification designations.May God, the AmIAQC and the IAQA have mercy on us all!!Chuck Reaney CIAQetc. & CMIEP____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __Alpha Environmental, Inc.Indoor Air Quality & Environmental Consulting624 W. Saint

s Dr.Media, PA 19063Phone:610.892. 7714 Fax:610.892. 7716 Cell:610.587. 6700____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __

Finding fabulous fares is fun.Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.

[Guest guest]

Mike,

I suggest that this thread be likened to a couple of politicians (in our case an IEP and contractor) discussing issues in front of an audience. The audience becomes confused and only the reputation of the industry is diminished.

There is a lot to learn on both sides and while a home inspector cannot know all things about a house and perform their service for peanuts, an IEP can not be expected to be perfect given the reimbursement. Contractors do not walk on water either.

Hopefully the cream will rise to the top as it sounds like your thread is a wake up call to attorneys.

ge

Ron:I figured some folks would take exception to what I wrote, and you were the first to take the bait!Let me reiterate.....many IEPs, and probably most of them, have no practical construction training or experience. Some do and they are the gems and some of those gems are on this list, but many IEPs don’t! Mold remediation is often construction-demolition, and few IEPs know how to write a construction spec. Moreover, unless the IEP is a licensed engineer, their spec had better not involve any structural components; otherwise they are guilty of professional negligence. Are you aware that sheetrock, in many structures built prior to 1980, is a structural component of the wall assembly and it requires an engineer’s evaluation and proper sequencing prior to removal? I know of two structures that have collapsed because a remediation contractor (blindly) followed an IEPs spec and remove too much sheetrock at one time. What about the IEP that specifies that dimensional timber needs to be scrubbed free of mold, and if not possible, the member must be removed! I’ve seen this in IEPs specs, and I have seen the remediation contractor blindly follow the spec, and then the shit hits the fan because a structural member is removed without proper shoring and there is structural damage. What about the IEP that specifies drywall and wet insulation be removed from an exterior wall cavity and all other materials that have mold on them, and the remediation contractor removes the vapor barrier from the INSIDE!. The IEP and contractor have just created a HUGE construction defect, and I hear this being done over and over and over. It is just plain negligence!!! And, more often than not, when the defect/damage is pointed out to the IEP, I hear the IEP say, and I quote, “The remediator is a contractor, and he should have known what to do.†My response is always....Yes, and so should you! Yes....I agree with you, continue to keep your insurance premiums paid up, because many piss-poor IEPs are roaming the streets masquerading as mold remediation professionals, and mandating that the remediation contractor follow their piss-poor construction specs. The good contractors, as pointed out, will do what is right, and not blindly begin demolishing a structure based on poor guidance.For what it is worth....-- Geyer, PE, CIH, CSPPresidentKERNTEC Industries, Inc.Bakersfield, Californiawww.kerntecindustries.comOn 1/22/07 8:05 AM, "Ron " <ronbaileyeng> wrote:

Gentlemen, continue to keep your insurances paid up if your going to ignore an IEP's protocols. No, you should never blindly follow them, but know your IEP and discuss the protocols and work with them before beginning and ending the project. Many Remediation contractors are sadly disappointed when we don't approve their payment when the extent of the work either stops short or goes beyond the limits we call for.Ron

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of GeyerSent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 9:23 PMTo: iequality Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?:Much of what you point-out is very well said. Especially...â€We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the mark.†How true! And it is good that you don’t blindly follow the IEP’s protocol. More often than not, the IEP has no practical construction training or experience, has no clue how to write a construction/demolition spec, and are themselves blindly following the arcane practice of 48inx48in removal on either side of a mold colony. Most IEPs are hated by the construction industry. Why? Because they have no clue what construction is. Thanks for your comments...

[Guest guest]

Ron,

You are absolutely correct, that the remediation contractor should work

with the IEP.

Unfortunately, economics don't always permit this.

Bob

[Guest guest]

Chuck,

Would you please tell us how you REALLY

feel? J. I wish instead of “ranting questions” like the

ones asked by , we could all focus more on REAL questions or comments with

the sincerity of either getting an answer or helping someone by providing the answer.

Just a thought.

I have learned a lot by being part of this

group but I have also had to sift through a lot.

Josh

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Chuck Reaney

Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007

11:25 AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Group,

Here we go again...

This is (predictably) a bit long, so read it when you have time, or go get

a cup of coffee.

I'm going to reply point by point below. I can't figure out how an

educated person who is also a business owner can make such

statements & nonsensical " points " . Like Wane, I'm also at a loss

as to

what the point of this post was in the first place, other than to express

contempt for consultants and for Dr. Rosen to again impress himself

with himself.

That being off my chest, my remarks:

On 20 Jan 2007 at 15:04, gary

rosen wrote:

> In general, when an IEP does an assessment they do not open walls,

> remove baseboard, cut open AC ducts ... they usually only sample and

> take other measurements. Then when the test results come back from

> the lab they (some how) come up with a mold remediation protocol.

Reply: " Somehow " ...I would think that someone with a Ph.D. would

be

familiar with basic scientific protocols, and proper use of the english

language. Silly me. Using several types of collected data, which may

include all or a substantial portion of visual observations, information

gained through interview(s) regarding the history of the building, it's

occupants, and reasons for concerns; moisture readings, airborne

particle counts, relative humidity, and yes perhaps some sampling to

confirm or deny hypotheses developed regarding location, severity and

extent of microbial involvement, a capable consultant (IEP) will then

utilize this data in combination with intelligence, common sense and

experiential knowledge to draw reasonably accurate conclusions

regarding certain circumstances and outcomes.

The first is usually a reasonably accurate estimate of the locations,

extent, and severity of primary microbial amplification and reservoirs.

The second is usually a reasonable accurate estimate of the severity

and extent of secondary contamination resulting from the presence of

the primary factors.

>

> The question is how often does a remediation contractor follow the

> IEP's recommendations?

Reply: In my world, the client gets general information in the form of

recommendations in the assessment report. It is also stated in the

report that these recommendations ARE GENERAL, and are not to be

utilized, construed, or relied upon by the client, their representatives,

contractors, etc. as a Remediation Specification and Scope of Work.

Preparation of those documents is the next phase that the client can

choose to utilize my services to prepare, but is contingent upon also

utilizing my services for the performance of Project Management and

Oversight as well as for PRV sampling, analyses and interpretation.

In other words, ,

recommendations are general. If someone

wants the details, they have to agree to have me be involved from that

point through the conclusion of the project. If they so agree, then they

and the contractor get the details. If they don't, then they and the

contractor are on their own to muddle though. I do that purposely, so

that a CMIEP (Cro-Magnon Indoor Environmental Professional

(Consultant)), isn't hung out to dry and subject to liabilities resulting

from attempted cost-cutting measures by the client, or from the

ineptitude of the Neanderthal contractor.

> As a remediation contractor I find that less than 5% of the time is

> the IEP protocol on the money. Usually they tell you to take out too

> much drywall. If you assume that the protocol is on the money and you

> quote a job based on it, you will probably lose the job because your

> quote will be too high.

>

Reply: Any IEP that can't get closer than 5% should be doing

something else for a living. Unless of course, it's 5% of YOUR

approach and opinions, and not those based upon a complete study

and assessment as explained above.

In MY experience, an accuracy level of 85% - 95% is quite achieveable

by a capable CMIEP.

> The only way to tell how much mold is hiding in the walls is to open

> the walls. At that point you can develop the mold remediation

> protocol that makes sense for the job.

>

Reply: Granted, the only way to know with 100% certainty is to open

the walls, ceilings, remove finish flooring, sometimes subflooring, etc.

But we're talking about assessment by a CMIEP, NOT DEMOLITION!

As stated above, an accuracy level of 85% to 95% is quite achievable

by a competent CMIEP, as opposed to attempting to achieve 100% by

a Neanderthal contractor who shoots for 100% by performing total

demolition. Also, as somewhat of an aside, are you familiar with the

term " microscopic " ? Just because the microbials, or to put it in

terms

that you can undersand the " MOLD " is not visible to the naked while

you're trashing the building with sledge hammers and sawsalls, doesn't

mean it isn't there!!

> Often times there is only mold behind the baseboard but the walls

> above the base are clear? Why remove 4 feet of wall board in that

> case?

>

Reply: Refer to " microscopic " above. Drywall is cheap, and comes in

4' x 8' sheets. Therefore it's also EASIER and therefore more

economical to replace 4' sections. Helloooo?? Anybody home?

> Quite often we see false positives on wall cavity sampling. There is

> zero mold elevation in the living spaces and a few dozen Pen/Asp in a

> wall cavity test (perhaps being sucked from the attic) and the IEP

> recommends removing 4 feet of wall.

>

Reply: What the hell is a false positive? It's either there in amplified

levels, or it's not! Why isn't something being drawn (sucked) from

another area (attic) information that can be somehow utilized, and that

the client shouldn't be made aware of?

> We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the

> mark. We are up front with the homeowner about this issue before we

> start. Once in a while we lose a job because of it, but almost always

> the client understands that you will know best about these issues once

> the baseboard is off, or the walls are opened.

>

Reply: You mean the client buys your line of inept BS, don't you?

Also, if you were involved in a bid process due to my preparation of a

spec & scope of work, going directly to the client would result in your

being placed on my permanent list of " Contractors Who no Longer

Exist on Planet Earth " .

> We provide a final remediation certificate based on remediating the

> areas mentioned in the IEP report.

Reply: I'm tingly all over. An actual CERTIFICATE?!?! Wow. Printed

up on your very own computer!! I'm truly impressed.

>

, I repeat

from a previous post of mine to you. You and your type

are a big part of the PROBLEMS with this industry. Please, please, my

God, PLEASE stop deluding yourself and your clients (victims) with

your misunderstandings and misinformation.

I'm eternally grateful that I'm not a Ph.D., and I would think that those

who hold that designation and are capable should protest the fact that

someone like you somehow managed to acquire it.

In fact, I'm now re-thinking whether to cancel my application for a

CIEC! If someone with your views of this profession can get that

designation, how credible is it?? Also why in the hell do you WANT a

CIEC when you are a CONTRACTOR? How in the hell does AmIAQC

ALLOW a CONTRACTOR to acquire this designation?!?!?!?

There's ANOTHER point, and one that perhaps can be the answer to

related issues previously discussed. I present this question to the

group, and reply postings would be appreciated....

What about the AmIAQC and the IAQA stipulating that an individual

can hold certification designations in discliplines related ONLY to

contracting OR to consulting, and not BOTH? That would admittedly

present some delicate issues to the organizations to deal with, BUT it

would also further enhance the credibility of the organizations who

represent US, and help to further the credibility of the organizations

themselves and our particular certification designations.

May God, the AmIAQC and the IAQA have mercy on us all!!

Chuck Reaney CIAQetc. & CMIEP

__________________________________________________

Alpha Environmental, Inc.

Indoor Air Quality & Environmental Consulting

624 W. Saint s Dr.

Media, PA

19063

Phone: Fax: Cell:

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Chuck,

I agree. Here's where I am coming from ...

You have been asked to bid on a job. There is $5K of insurance to pay for the work. The insurance company does not even want to to pay for an assessor to write a protocol. The home owner goes out and finds someone that tests and writes the protocol for $650. In our area this is never anyone with any construction experience .. for whatever reason.

The home owner does not really pay enough to have the house thoroughly assessed or he does not know what he is doing ... so the assessor covers themself by specifying more walls to be removed than needed. What they should say is ... remediator will open walls and then we will be called back to fine tune protocol. But that is NEVER done. They NEVER ask to be brought in during remediation but ONLY to do final testing after the job is done.

The assessors are focused on pre-remediation testing to find the extent of a problem and then post-remediation testing to determine if the work was done right. They are obsessed with testing as the answer to everything.

So if you actually propose to do the work to the extent specified you can't do the job for what the insurance company will pay. (Yes, drywall is cheap but drywall finishing, knockdown, painting .... all add up.) But more often than not there is enough money to do a 100% job but just not 2X what is required to be done to comply with the "protocol".

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Free.org

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,Please see my reply to .I'm truly amazed by the apparent rampant ineptitude of the IEPs that you have had contact with. If they have no experience or knowledge of construction, they have no business in this business.This provides even more reason for credibile certifications, and for the issuing industry organizations to continue their efforts to ensure that those that apply for and are granted certifications have the necessary expertise.This will help greatly in elimination of the certification mills that have been so problematic for so long a time. Also, I repeat my strong suggestion that certifications by the AmIAQC and IAQA be segmented by demonstrated contractor or consultant expertise and designations, and that none be issued that cross over.Use of the term "IEP" itself should be eliminated, as it lends an element of confusion and false credibility to anyone performing this

work, yet who hold no legitimate certifications.Chuck Reaney:Much of what you point-out is very well said. Especially.. .²We neverblindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the mark.² How true! And it is good that you don¹t blindly follow the IEP¹sprotocol. More often than not, the IEP has no practical constructiontraining or experience, has no clue how to write aconstruction/ demolition spec, and are themselves blindly following thearcane practice of 48inx48in removal on either side of a mold colony. Most IEPs are hated by the construction industry. Why? Because theyhave no clue what construction is. Thanks for your comments..On 1/20/07 3:04 PM, "gary rosen" <garyrosen72652@ yahoo.com> wrote:> > > In general,

when an IEP does an assessment they do not open walls,> remove baseboard, cut open AC ducts ... they usually only sample and> take other measurements. Then when the test results come back from> the lab they (some how) come up with a mold remediation protocol.> > The question is how often does a remediation contractor follow the> IEP's recommendations?> > As a remediation contractor I find that less than 5% of the time is> the IEP protocol on the money. Usually they tell you to take out> too much drywall. If you assume that the protocol is on the money> and you quote a job based on it, you will probably lose the job> because your quote will be too high.> > The only way to tell how much mold is hiding in the walls is to open> the walls. At that point you can develop the mold remediation> protocol that makes sense for the job.> > Often times there is

only mold behind the baseboard but the walls> above the base are clear? Why remove 4 feet of wall board in that> case?> > Quite often we see false positives on wall cavity sampling. There> is zero mold elevation in the living spaces and a few dozen Pen/Asp> in a wall cavity test (perhaps being sucked from the attic) and the> IEP recommends removing 4 feet of wall.> > We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off> the mark. We are up front with the homeowner about this issue before> we start. Once in a while we lose a job because of it, but almost> always the client understands that you will know best about these> issues once the baseboard is off, or the walls are opened.> > We provide a final remediation certificate based on remediating the> areas mentioned in the IEP report.> > Rosen, Ph.D.> AmIAQC C.I.E.C>

www.Mold-Free. org <http://www.Mold- Free.org>> >

Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.

[Guest guest]

,

You point out some good issues in this

post.

The wind and vapor barriers are being

removed and not properly replaced (or secured) making them of lesser or no

affect. This violates building codes. As far as structural timbers, in

some states a contractor is licensed to remove and/or install structural

timbers (or steel) up to 35,000 CF. Some (depending) cities want an engineering

stamp on some steel components or when the building is over 35K CF.

I agree that the drywall is considered

part of the structural integrity (against wind load) although if I knew that

the removal of the drywall would allow the assembly to collapse, I would not

hire that engineer. In the northeast most of the techniques used in 17 & 18

hundreds have hurricane bracing timbers (including barns with no drywall).

Now if you are talking about balloon

framing, removal of all the drywall (or plaster and lath) this may allow

movement but not enough to collapse the dwelling unless a hurricane came alone.

And that would require a total gut including outside sheathing. , are

you referring to techniques utilized in other parts of the country?

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Geyer

Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007

12:35 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Ron:

I figured some folks would take exception to what I wrote, and you were the

first to take the bait!

Let me reiterate.....many IEPs, and probably most of them, have no

practical construction training or experience. Some do and they are the

gems and some of those gems are on this list, but many IEPs don’t!

Mold remediation is often construction-demolition, and few IEPs know

how to write a construction spec. Moreover, unless the IEP is a licensed

engineer, their spec had better not involve any structural components;

otherwise they are guilty of professional negligence. Are you aware that

sheetrock, in many structures built prior to 1980, is a structural component of

the wall assembly and it requires an engineer’s evaluation and proper

sequencing prior to removal? I know of two structures that have collapsed

because a remediation contractor (blindly) followed an IEPs spec and remove too

much sheetrock at one time. What about the IEP that specifies that

dimensional timber needs to be scrubbed free of mold, and if not possible, the

member must be removed! I’ve seen this in IEPs specs, and I have

seen the remediation contractor blindly follow the spec, and then the shit hits

the fan because a structural member is removed without proper shoring and there

is structural damage. What about the IEP that specifies drywall and wet

insulation be removed from an exterior wall cavity and all other materials that

have mold on them, and the remediation contractor removes the vapor barrier

from the INSIDE!. The IEP and contractor have just created a HUGE

construction defect, and I hear this being done over and over and over. It

is just plain negligence!!! And, more often than not, when the

defect/damage is pointed out to the IEP, I hear the IEP say, and I quote,

“The remediator is a contractor, and he should have known what to

do.” My response is always....Yes, and so should you! Yes....I

agree with you, continue to keep your insurance premiums paid up, because many

piss-poor IEPs are roaming the streets masquerading as mold remediation

professionals, and mandating that the remediation contractor follow their

piss-poor construction specs. The good contractors, as pointed out, will do what is right, and

not blindly begin demolishing a structure based on poor guidance.

For what it is worth....

--

Geyer, PE, CIH, CSP

President

KERNTEC Industries, Inc.

Bakersfield, California

www.kerntecindustries.com

On 1/22/07 8:05 AM, " Ron " <ronbaileyeng>

wrote:

Gentlemen, continue to keep your insurances paid

up if your going to ignore an IEP's protocols. No, you should never blindly

follow them, but know your IEP and discuss the protocols and work with them

before beginning and ending the project. Many Remediation contractors are sadly

disappointed when we don't approve their payment when the extent of the work

either stops short or goes beyond the limits we call for.

Ron

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]

On Behalf Of Geyer

Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007

9:23 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

:

Much of what you point-out is very well said. Especially...”We

never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the

mark.” How true! And it is good that you don’t blindly

follow the IEP’s protocol. More often than not, the IEP has no

practical construction training or experience, has no clue how to write a

construction/demolition spec, and are themselves blindly following the

arcane practice of 48inx48in removal on either side of a mold colony.

Most IEPs are hated by the construction industry. Why?

Because they have no clue what construction is. Thanks for your

comments.

.

..

[Guest guest]

With few exceptions, money spent on an IEP is wasted money and would be better spent hiring a better experienced mold remediation contractor. One of the problems with the IEPs is that rarely, very rarely, do they have adequate professional insurance coverage (E & O) for the work they perform. Their insurance is written to cover errors in testing/ sampling and not errors in protocol development or errors in inspections. Why. Because they have no formal training or knoweldge of construction that would warrant insurance coverage outside of sampling. Their knowledge, experience and training is generally nothing more than turning on/off of the sampling pump. They are usually not even insured for interpreting

the sampling results!

Lets do a poll. How many IEPs out there reading this post have E & O insurance (including microbial coverage) for protocol development and for interpreting sampling results ... outside of those IEPs that are also PE's and/or licensed building contractors. Are they any?

I have never met one.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Free.org

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?:Much of what you point-out is very well said. Especially.. .”We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the mark.” How true! And it is good that you don’t blindly follow the IEP’s protocol. More often than not, the IEP has no practical construction training or experience, has no clue how to write a construction/ demolition spec, and are themselves blindly following the arcane practice of 48inx48in removal on either side of a mold colony. Most

IEPs are hated by the construction industry. Why? Because they have no clue what construction is. Thanks for your comments...

Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from real people who know.

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr. Geyer: I haven't posted lately, partly because I have been reminded lately that this is a scientific post where scientific data is brought into play, bantied about and debated, so as to assist IEP's and other Indoor Environmental practitioner's when they ply their trade in the field. (...and I ain't no scientist, that's fo' sure)! So, with all that in mind, I will respectfully suggest the following "scientific statement" for your future postings (though it surely won't be understood in the field!): "...when the proverbial defacation hits the rotating oscillator..." As I stated, a suggestion, so as some of our more sensitive colleague's sensibilities are no longer offended. In addition, I have restrained myself from commenting on any post written by someone who so blatantly

follows the practice of representing the client/customer as both the consultant and the contractor in direct contradiction to S520's Section 4.2.1, but alas, you and many others seem to have no such qualms. (Especially one who is so obviously trolling for both "clients" who may be in the market for an "expert" and book sales). But I will say this, the IEP's who generally post here are worth their weight in gold for our entire industry, and it's an unwise contractor indeed who would shoot for less or more than the protocols established by any one of them without first having direct consultations. But most of our esteemed colleagues here on this list don't venture too far in the residential field, due to the fact that more often than not Harry & Helen Homeowner either can't or won't pay the fees associated with such, true Professional representation. So, this vacuum was

filled with the three day wonder variety of IEP that typically go (at least here in the Northeast) by the nickname, "testers"! These folks have been lured into our industry by those offering such courses and their proprietary credentials, starting in about 2002 or 2003, often with (if you listen hard enough, you may still here it being faintly chanted in the background) the mantra, "Mold is Gold, Mold is Gold, ...". Alas, building science and proper "client" representation are often foreign terms to these newly minted IEP's. However, terms such as "lawsuit" and "liability" are usually not, and these terms often can awake newfound sensibilities. Or at least one can always hope. One last item, if I may; I have an extremely succesful Uncle-in-Law who, being a Doctor of Economics, once explained to me the varioius

meaings that could be applied to the credentials, BS and MS. He then went on to tell me that the credential PHD often was really just more of the same, or as he so eloquently put it, Piled High & Deep. Just some more food for thought. As always, I remain.... at your service. - Pete Geyer wrote: Ron:I figured some folks would take exception to what I wrote, and you were the first to take the bait!Let me reiterate.....many IEPs, and probably most of them, have no practical construction training or experience. Some do and they are the gems and some of those gems are on this list, but many IEPs don’t! Mold remediation is often construction-demolition, and few IEPs know how to write a construction spec. Moreover, unless the IEP is a licensed engineer, their spec had better not involve any structural components; otherwise they are guilty of professional negligence. Are you aware that sheetrock, in many structures built prior to 1980, is a structural component of the wall assembly and it requires an engineer’s evaluation and proper sequencing prior to removal? I know of two structures that have collapsed because a remediation contractor (blindly) followed an IEPs spec and remove

too much sheetrock at one time. What about the IEP that specifies that dimensional timber needs to be scrubbed free of mold, and if not possible, the member must be removed! I’ve seen this in IEPs specs, and I have seen the remediation contractor blindly follow the spec, and then the shit hits the fan because a structural member is removed without proper shoring and there is structural damage. What about the IEP that specifies drywall and wet insulation be removed from an exterior wall cavity and all other materials that have mold on them, and the remediation contractor removes the vapor barrier from the INSIDE!. The IEP and contractor have just created a HUGE construction defect, and I hear this being done over and over and over. It is just plain negligence!!! And, more often than not, when the defect/damage is pointed out to the IEP, I hear the IEP say, and I quote, “The remediator is a contractor, and he should have known what to

do.” My response is always....Yes, and so should you! Yes....I agree with you, continue to keep your insurance premiums paid up, because many piss-poor IEPs are roaming the streets masquerading as mold remediation professionals, and mandating that the remediation contractor follow their piss-poor construction specs. The good contractors, as pointed out, will do what is right, and not blindly begin demolishing a structure based on poor guidance.For what it is worth....-- Geyer, PE, CIH, CSPPresidentKERNTEC Industries, Inc.Bakersfield, Californiawww.kerntecindustries.comOn 1/22/07 8:05 AM, "Ron " <ronbaileyeng> wrote: Gentlemen, continue to

keep your insurances paid up if your going to ignore an IEP's protocols. No, you should never blindly follow them, but know your IEP and discuss the protocols and work with them before beginning and ending the project. Many Remediation contractors are sadly disappointed when we don't approve their payment when the extent of the work either stops short or goes beyond the limits we call for.Ron From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of GeyerSent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 9:23 PMTo:

iequality Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?:Much of what you point-out is very well said. Especially...”We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the mark.” How true! And it is good that you don’t blindly follow the IEP’s protocol. More often than not, the IEP has no practical construction training or experience, has no clue how to write a construction/demolition spec, and are themselves blindly following the arcane practice of 48inx48in removal on either side of a mold colony. Most IEPs are hated by the construction industry. Why? Because they have no clue what construction is. Thanks for your comments...

Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.

[Guest guest]

Ron/Bob,

>> You are absolutely correct, that the remediation contractor should work with the IEP.

Economics "rarely" permit this except on large and/or complex jobs. Less than 10% of the time in my experience. Never on small jobs less than $10K which for some of us are our bread and butter.

An inexperienced IEP results in a conflict of interest. When there is limited funding (as is typical) and an IEP is paid to write a protocol that has no value, and this takes money that could be spent on having a proper remediation ... I would say that this is the #1 conflict of interest in the industry today.

Rosen, Ph.D.

C.I.E.C.

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Ron,You are absolutely correct, that the remediation contractor should work with the IEP.Unfortunately, economics don't always permit this.Bob

We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

[Guest guest]

Bob/Ma.

Iin an older home with wood rot and/or termites... the walls and roof may be "held up" by the drwall or plaster walls.

Rosen

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? :Much of what you point-out is very well said. Especially.. .”We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the mark.” How true!

And it is good that you don’t blindly follow the IEP’s protocol. More often than not, the IEP has no practical construction training or experience, has no clue how to write a construction/ demolition spec, and are themselves blindly following the arcane practice of 48inx48in removal on either side of a mold colony. Most IEPs are hated by the construction industry. Why? Because they have no clue what construction is. Thanks for your comments...

Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.

[Guest guest]

Who hired the IEP?

Being second in the door and finding the customer sitting with and open phone book usually means he was price shopping. It is also a Big red flag of what's to come . I have found an IEP correlation between the type of equipment and the lab they use vs. the protocol they write. (Don't hunt an elephant with a BB gun)

You've held Florida CBC license since 2003. Although not a long time in the trade I respect what it takes to pass a Florida test. Bear in mind and expect, people are being pumped out of classes without a

background in construction methods ,or the ability to see a structure as a living unit. You,as prime contractor assume the risk. This is Florida. Those questions on the test about psi loads on forms are there for a reason.

They make you responsible if they fail. Even if the designer screwed up.The same with every other facet of the project. If you think the IEP is wrong, discuss that possibility with the potential client. But tell him why in third party language. Let him/her draw their own conclusion after you contact the IEP and talk with them. Communicate.

Don't report a general problem without a general solution. If people need to be in the construction field for a period of time before telling contractors what to do.....Makes sense to me. You can start right there in Davie at the building dept. I'm not being offensive. Change starts on a local level.

What about the AmIAQC and the IAQA stipulating that an individual can hold certification designations in discliplines related ONLY to contracting OR to consulting, and not BOTH? That would admittedly present some delicate issues to the organizations to deal with, BUT it would also further enhance the credibility of the organizations who represent US, and help to further the credibility of the organizations themselves and our particular certification designations.May God, the AmIAQC and the IAQA have mercy on us all!!Chuck Reaney CIAQetc. & CMIEP

Sorry Mr. Reaney. I also hold several state contracting certifications ( Fl, Ga.) along with the CIEC, ASHREA member, International Code Council..... I see you are in Pa. I did a lot of commercial work at North way Mall just West of Pittsburgh. Both mechanical and Construction. It cost me $15.00 it register as a contractor with nothing except an official asking me if I had ever done this before. I can understand your frustration with the trades, as I had to put up with it for two years. Has it changed since 1989?

Valin

Fl. CAC032404

Fl. CBC051232

Ga. CN209932

CIEC

and Sams club member

[Guest guest]

Bob:

I am most familiar with west-coast framing techniques and the Uniform Building Code (UBC) used here. Based on the UBC, up to about 1980 (I’m not sure of the specific date and it may be 1983), 1/2in sheetrock nailed on two sides of a 2x4x16OC interior wall provided 220lbs per ln.ft. lateral resistance; on exterior walls with sheetrock on one side, 110lbs per ln.ft.. In the 1985 UBC, this was reduced 50%. After the Northridge Earthquake in Los Angeles County in (I believe) 1994, sheetrock was no longer allowed for shear resistance. Please note that this is not because sheetrock did not offer good shear resistance. It was a matter of dynamic and cyclic loading instead of static loads, and earthquakes impart a dynamic and cyclic load on a structure. Most of California is in a Seismic Zone 4 and sheetrock does not perform well when shaken due to localized crush around the nail shank.

I hope this provides some basis of my contention that sheetrock is a STRUCTURAL member in many buildings constructed prior to 1980, and ANY structure member of a structure being altered or removed warrants an engineer’s involvement. Most IEPs here have no clue.

I am aware of two structures that raked due to excessive amounts of the lateral resistive members being removed at one time. I got involved in one of the two. The one was was called out to, albeit briefly, involved a significant second floor water leak that flooded the first floor of a detached SFD to about 6in while the homeowners were away for some time (I don’t know the reason). The IEP on the job provided written specifications stating that all interior drywall was to be removed from the floor, up to 48in. Some, but very little, of the exterior stucco was also removed. Note, this was a two-story home. It also had a high-mass roof system consisting of red clay spanish tiles. Also note, removing the sheetrock interrupted the load path from the roof to the foundation. What I understood happened, was at the end of the day (thank God) a laborer backing-up a large utility truck to load demolition debris smacked into a corner of the garage, and the whole house raked sideways. Since I have experience picking up entire houses with cranes and steel beams and placing them back onto their foundations, I was asked to assess the house to determine if it was salvageable. After penciling things out, it wasn’t. Bottom line and lesson to be learned.....In whole-house waster loss events, one cannot assume that all the interior finishes can all be removed at one time, and that sheetrock is non-structural; properly sequencing the mold remediation effort in this one structure would have prevented the loss. Moreover, the excuse the IEP gave.....”The remediation firm is a licensed contractor and should have known what to do, regardless of what my spec said.” Maybe not an exact quote, but I hope you get the jist. Also, I hear this often from IEPs when something bad happens.

I hope this answers your questions. Thanks for asking.

PS Don’t get me started on IEPs specifying the removal of the vapor barrier from a wall cavity from the inside of a structure. This is SO STUIPD!, and it happens all the time.

,

You point out some good issues in this post.

The wind and vapor barriers are being removed and not properly replaced (or secured) making them of lesser or no affect. This violates building codes. As far as structural timbers, in some states a contractor is licensed to remove and/or install structural timbers (or steel) up to 35,000 CF. Some (depending) cities want an engineering stamp on some steel components or when the building is over 35K CF.

I agree that the drywall is considered part of the structural integrity (against wind load) although if I knew that the removal of the drywall would allow the assembly to collapse, I would not hire that engineer. In the northeast most of the techniques used in 17 & 18 hundreds have hurricane bracing timbers (including barns with no drywall).

Now if you are talking about balloon framing, removal of all the drywall (or plaster and lath) this may allow movement but not enough to collapse the dwelling unless a hurricane came alone. And that would require a total gut including outside sheathing. , are you referring to techniques utilized in other parts of the country?

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Geyer

Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 12:35 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Ron:

I figured some folks would take exception to what I wrote, and you were the first to take the bait!

Let me reiterate.....many IEPs, and probably most of them, have no practical construction training or experience. Some do and they are the gems and some of those gems are on this list, but many IEPs don’t! Mold remediation is often construction-demolition, and few IEPs know how to write a construction spec. Moreover, unless the IEP is a licensed engineer, their spec had better not involve any structural components; otherwise they are guilty of professional negligence. Are you aware that sheetrock, in many structures built prior to 1980, is a structural component of the wall assembly and it requires an engineer’s evaluation and proper sequencing prior to removal? I know of two structures that have collapsed because a remediation contractor (blindly) followed an IEPs spec and remove too much sheetrock at one time. What about the IEP that specifies that dimensional timber needs to be scrubbed free of mold, and if not possible, the member must be removed! I’ve seen this in IEPs specs, and I have seen the remediation contractor blindly follow the spec, and then the shit hits the fan because a structural member is removed without proper shoring and there is structural damage. What about the IEP that specifies drywall and wet insulation be removed from an exterior wall cavity and all other materials that have mold on them, and the remediation contractor removes the vapor barrier from the INSIDE!. The IEP and contractor have just created a HUGE construction defect, and I hear this being done over and over and over. It is just plain negligence!!! And, more often than not, when the defect/damage is pointed out to the IEP, I hear the IEP say, and I quote, “The remediator is a contractor, and he should have known what to do.” My response is always....Yes, and so should you! Yes....I agree with you, continue to keep your insurance premiums paid up, because many piss-poor IEPs are roaming the streets masquerading as mold remediation professionals, and mandating that the remediation contractor follow their piss-poor construction specs. The good contractors, as pointed out, will do what is right, and not blindly begin demolishing a structure based on poor guidance.

For what it is worth....

[Guest guest]

,

You are correct on such an occurrence (although

rare). I say rare because it was unexpected. There are almost always signs of

water intrusion if the walls and/or framing is that rotted. Termites are a

different issue (although not undetectable if the contractor and/or IEP is experienced).

I would hope that both the remediation contractor and the IEP both inspected the

area(s) and/or building structure before the specifications and scope were

completed. If the contractor didn’t, that is his/her mistake.

Now when it comes to some insurance

companies (being nice), now we are treading upon another issue all together. The

industry does not want to pay for solid and reliable experience (that cost more

and will increase the project cost as well). Now the PE, CIH, IEP, or whatever

you want to call them will only spend so much time evaluating the site as money

allows. Furthermore, how much time do you think they will spend for $175.00

(including travel & a report)?

I know, I have seen them as well, protocols

that are elusive. Having no building science, the IEP writes up the limited

scope only to ignore other opinions with more experience and assert theirs are gospel.

Why, because they were told what to write up and if they want more work from

that company, they had better produce what the company directed. Now, once in a

while the IEP runs into someone with more experience and to that end, the scope

increased and the cost as well. But consider this as well, it’s a numbers

game. 95% of the time they get away with it, 5% they pay; saved a lot of money

all in all.

Its out there, its out there,

Bob/Ma.

From:

iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007

3:44 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Bob/Ma.

Iin an older home with wood rot and/or termites... the walls and roof

may be " held up " by the drwall or plaster walls.

Rosen

Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

:

Much of what you point-out is very well said. Especially.. .”We

never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way off the

mark.” How true! And it is good that you don’t blindly

follow the IEP’s protocol. More often than not, the IEP has no

practical construction training or experience, has no clue how to write a

construction/ demolition spec, and are themselves blindly following the arcane

practice of 48inx48in removal on either side of a mold colony. Most IEPs

are hated by the construction industry. Why? Because they have no

clue what construction is. Thanks for your comments.

.

..

Looking for earth-friendly autos?

Browse

Top Cars by " Green Rating " at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.