Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

[Guest guest]

Tony,

You are so right. At least around here (S Florida) the guys that advertise licensed and bonded are guys that are typically never licensed and bonded nor insured. But this sounds good on their business cards.

Rosen

RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?, You said: But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new. The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation.You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully.Mark Doughty

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[Guest guest]

I guess I'll stick my two cents in…conflict of interest is a very

important subject. For the record, I conduct mold investigations and

testing when needed. I have taught for the board of realtors, in some

capacity, since 1990. I spend hours each week trying to explain to

Realtors what the test results, in their hands, might mean. Without a

through investigation, most test results mean nothing. When I issue a

report, I always recommend that the mitigation contractor leave

allowances for more problems when the walls are opened. Writing a

protocol, based on testing, is foolish.

Marty Emerick

Md. Professional Mold Services LLC

[Guest guest]

Stacey

In our area, an IEP charges a min of $895 for a protocol and limited pre-remediation testing.

And another $895 - $1295 for post-remediation testing and a report.

We do the pre-remediation testing; the remediation work; build back; flat white painting; baseboard; cleaning; documentation; post-remediation testing and report for min of $2K.

That is ripping people off?

Can you do this for less? No one in this area can provide this for less unless they have no license, insurance or certifications.

Rosen, Ph.D.

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?> > All:> The truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. I have seen many IEP protocols that are boiler plate, have little to do with the building at hand, and every section ends with something like "....and if you find anything different after you start, use your best professional judgment."> On the other hand I have seen many that instruct and quantify the work to be done, often wall by wall. They also have sections that end with "...and if you find anything different after you start, use your best professional judgment." Often times much is left to judgment of the remediator, because he is the one on the job every day.> As for a guarantee for protocols, good

luck. I saw one IEP out of TN that had an indemnification & hold harmless agreement in his contract with the insuror. When told that they could not sign that, he took it out and then turned in a protocol to tear out the entire house, effectively creating an unnecessary total loss.> S520, flawed as you might think that it is, is the standard at the moment. Dr. Rosen is correct in stating that it is often up to the remediator to determine if an IEP is necessary. Remember, though, that just because you SAY an IEP is not necessary means that it is true. A reasonable standard of care must be followed. DR. Rosen, stop testing your own work. It is a direct conflict of interest according to S520 and all common sense. Once that fact becomes known in a conflict all your credibility is out the window. If post remediation testing is indicated it should be done by a third party, paid for by the property owner.> The

general tone of this thread is way wrong. I have rarely seen such a continued lack of respect on both sides of an issue. Dr. Rosen, not all IEP's are idiots. I predict about the same ratio can be found in contractors. As for you IEP's, most contractors are not idiots, just hard working guys trying to do the right thing.> There is too much bluster & bullying on this board lately. I have been a part of it since it started, way back when all we talked about was candle soot. Please keep your comments professional and courteous. If you disagree, be nice about it. This particular thread has sunk to a new low of name calling & disrespect, & I for one will delete the posts on this thread until it is dead and gone. I encourage the moderator to hurry its demise.> > Cole, CR> Sentry Construction Company, Inc.> > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________

_________ _________ _____________ __> No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.> http://mobile. yahoo.com/ mail>

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[Guest guest]

Vigilance Chuck, Vililance. It is required for freedom, protection

from bad things, and stewardship of the environment. IT is also

required in this industry to confront the charletons and run them out

of the business.

Dana

[Guest guest]

Radondude said .... "Writing a protocol, based on testing, is foolish."

That is what I have been trying to get across to the (inexperienced) IEPs out there.

But people focus on testing because they do not have adequate training on construction and do not know how to "investigate".

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

I guess I'll stick my two cents in…conflict of interest is a very important subject. For the record, I conduct mold investigations and testing when needed. I have taught for the board of realtors, in some capacity, since 1990. I spend hours each week trying to explain to Realtors what the test results, in their hands, might mean. Without a through investigation, most test results mean nothing. When I issue a report, I always recommend that the mitigation contractor leave allowances for more problems when the walls are opened. Writing a protocol, based on testing, is foolish. Marty EmerickMd. Professional Mold Services LLC

Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.

[Guest guest]

,

In my back yard, the price

of the IEP and sampling is not the issue. Ethics and biases are more of an

issue for me. I am involved with high-profile projects as well as the everyday

ones. I am there as the go-between consultant who is expected to assume the

major portion of liability for the project.

I do not know if you have

talked to your insurance errors and omissions underwriters, we have. The

underwriters are surprised that for the small amount of money we bring in as

profit on each job, our exposure and risk to the insurance company is thousands

of times greater.

From:

iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007

2:24 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Re: When

do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Stacey

In our area, an IEP charges a min of $895 for a protocol and limited

pre-remediation testing.

And another $895 - $1295 for post-remediation testing and a report.

We do the pre-remediation testing; the remediation work; build back;

flat white painting; baseboard; cleaning; documentation; post-remediation

testing and report for min of $2K.

That is ripping people off?

Can you do this for less? No one in this area can provide this for less

unless they have no license, insurance or certifications.

Rosen, Ph.D.

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

>

> All:

> The truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. I have seen

many IEP protocols that are boiler plate, have little to do with the

building at hand, and every section ends with something like " ....and

if you find anything different after you start, use your best

professional judgment. "

> On the other hand I have seen many that instruct and quantify

the work to be done, often wall by wall. They also have sections

that end with " ...and if you find anything different after you start,

use your best professional judgment. " Often times much is left to

judgment of the remediator, because he is the one on the job every

day.

> As for a guarantee for protocols, good luck. I saw one IEP out

of TN that had an indemnification & hold harmless agreement in his

contract with the insuror. When told that they could not sign that,

he took it out and then turned in a protocol to tear out the entire

house, effectively creating an unnecessary total loss.

> S520, flawed as you might think that it is, is the standard at

the moment. Dr. Rosen is correct in stating that it is often up to

the remediator to determine if an IEP is necessary. Remember,

though, that just because you SAY an IEP is not necessary means that

it is true. A reasonable standard of care must be followed. DR.

Rosen, stop testing your own work. It is a direct conflict of

interest according to S520 and all common sense. Once that fact

becomes known in a conflict all your credibility is out the window.

If post remediation testing is indicated it should be done by a third

party, paid for by the property owner.

> The general tone of this thread is way wrong. I have rarely

seen such a continued lack of respect on both sides of an issue. Dr.

Rosen, not all IEP's are idiots. I predict about the same ratio can

be found in contractors. As for you IEP's, most contractors are not

idiots, just hard working guys trying to do the right thing.

> There is too much bluster & bullying on this board lately. I

have been a part of it since it started, way back when all we talked

about was candle soot. Please keep your comments professional and

courteous. If you disagree, be nice about it. This particular thread

has sunk to a new low of name calling & disrespect, & I for one will

delete the posts on this thread until it is dead and gone. I

encourage the moderator to hurry its demise.

>

> Cole, CR

> Sentry Construction Company, Inc.

>

>

>

>

>

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

____________ __

> No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go

> with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile.

Get started.

> http://mobile.

yahoo.com/ mail

>

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TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

[Guest guest]

Dr. ,

We finally have a shred of common ground. Congratulations on

agreeing with a perspective that makes sense.

I'd like to ammend/edit Marty's statement to add a bit more clarity and

definition, if I may, from my (a Consultant's) perspective:

" Writing a protocol, performing an assessment or PRV evaluation,

based on testing alone, is foolish, blatantly incomplete & irresponsible,

and represents nothing short of professional negligence. "

I think that about sums up that point.

Also, for the record, I despise the use of the term " IEP " . It's vague,

general and misleading, and on the same level with the term " IH " .

Both of these terms allow the inexperienced and unqualified to hold

themselves out to a confused public as having a far greater level of

professional expertise than they may actually posess.

Chuck Reaney, CIAQC, CIAQP

Radondude said .... " Writing a protocol, based on testing, is

foolish. "

That is what I have been trying to get across to the (inexperienced)

IEPs out there.

But people focus on testing because they do not have adequate

training

on construction and do not know how to " investigate " .

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

I guess I'll stick my two cents in…conflict of interest is a very

important subject. For the record, I conduct mold investigations and

testing when needed. I have taught for the board of realtors, in some

capacity, since 1990. I spend hours each week trying to explain to

Realtors what the test results, in their hands, might mean. Without a

through investigation, most test results mean nothing. When I issue a

report, I always recommend that the mitigation contractor leave

allowances for more problems when the walls are opened. Writing a

protocol, based on testing, is foolish.

Marty Emerick

Md. Professional Mold Services LLC

________________________________________________________

______________

______________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs.

http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited

[Guest guest]

,

Interesting. Things are much different down here (and in most other states) than in CA! I think we should all keep this in mind.

For residential problems ... an insurance provider here will almost always object and/or refuse to pay for use of an IEP and for any testing at all. They will ALWAYS pressure the homeowner to use "the insurance company's own" mold contractors. Their own contractors are the nationwide franchises whose people (at least in FLA) are rarely certified in mold; have no mold insurance; and never test. When the homeowner hires the insurance company's contractor they always are required to sign something stuck in between other things to sign that says the insurance provider has not been involved in the selection of the contractor and the selection is completely the homeowners. If something goes wrong and the remediation does not work (happens ALL the time) the insurance provider says they already paid and it was your choice. You should have read the contract. Then

you need to hire an attorney to try to get your money back. If it it not at least $10K that you lost forget it. Poor or old people are taken advantage of in horrible ways by this system.

This is how business is in most places outside California. Or it is even worse in many states. In many states when a water restoration contractor is called in by the insurance company and mold is found, the insurance company will not pay for the mold work. But if the contractor does not take care of the mold they can get sued. So they absorb the cost of the mold clean up in their water restoration job or simply eat it and and not make money on those jobs or risk losing the insurance business.

To earn a living here you have to either stay away from the insurance business or you need to be low cost and nimble and be able to provide both testing and remediation services for the price the insurance company will pay their "affiliates" for just remediation. That is not hard to do. We have two separate companies just like you have. One is for mold testing and the other is for remediation and re-construction. Both have their own insurance for the work they do. By being able to quote and perform multiple services we can compete just fine. Taking a few samples is cheap unless you have to bring in a separate party which we rarely do except for complex cases.

Or to earn a living here you need to also provide rebuild services in which case the affiliates cannot compete on price unless the jobs are really simple.

Just as some people have suggested in this user group we try to explain why we can do a better job by testing, investigating, documentating, etc. But by in large the business goes down based on price. We use Xactimate to better understand the cost basis in our county and we get whatever business we can where the prices are such that we can provide services we stand behind with our unconditional warranty.

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?> > All:> The truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. I have seen many IEP protocols that are boiler plate, have little to do with the building at hand, and every section ends with something like "....and if you find anything different after you start, use your best professional judgment."> On the other hand I have seen many that instruct and quantify the work to be done, often wall by wall. They also have sections that end with "...and if you find anything different after you start, use your best professional judgment." Often times much is left to judgment of the remediator, because he is the one on the job every

day.> As for a guarantee for protocols, good luck. I saw one IEP out of TN that had an indemnification & hold harmless agreement in his contract with the insuror. When told that they could not sign that, he took it out and then turned in a protocol to tear out the entire house, effectively creating an unnecessary total loss.> S520, flawed as you might think that it is, is the standard at the moment. Dr. Rosen is correct in stating that it is often up to the remediator to determine if an IEP is necessary. Remember, though, that just because you SAY an IEP is not necessary means that it is true. A reasonable standard of care must be followed. DR. Rosen, stop testing your own work. It is a direct conflict of interest according to S520 and all common sense. Once that fact becomes known in a conflict all your credibility is out the window. If post remediation testing is indicated it should be done by a third

party, paid for by the property owner.> The general tone of this thread is way wrong. I have rarely seen such a continued lack of respect on both sides of an issue. Dr. Rosen, not all IEP's are idiots. I predict about the same ratio can be found in contractors. As for you IEP's, most contractors are not idiots, just hard working guys trying to do the right thing.> There is too much bluster & bullying on this board lately. I have been a part of it since it started, way back when all we talked about was candle soot. Please keep your comments professional and courteous. If you disagree, be nice about it. This particular thread has sunk to a new low of name calling & disrespect, & I for one will delete the posts on this thread until it is dead and gone. I encourage the moderator to hurry its demise.> > Cole, CR> Sentry Construction Company, Inc.> > > >

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _____________ __> No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile . Get started.> http://mobile. yahoo.com/ mail>

We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

[Guest guest]

,

Don’t put your Florida scenario just on California. As a litigation expert for

contractors and IEP’s across the U.S. the prospective I outlined to

you in my last e-mail is not unusual.

As an expert witness and

arbitrator, I represent contractors who find them self in remediation

situations they are being blamed (sued) because they ended up assuming all the

liability of the job. Part of the plaintiff’s claim, someone with some

type of credentials came in after the fact and found mold problems still

existing.

On the second issue: the

issue with IEP, most of the IEP’s I know who mainly investigate residential

cases, they invoice “very little” for a project, partially because

over 50% of the costs represent direct laboratory costs.

Take into consideration

travel time; one or two meetings with materially interested parties: (1) gaining

valuable information about the history including cause and resulting damage, (2)

gaining valuable information about understanding the customer’s compliant

or concern issues, (3) to gaining valuable insight into hidden agendas of all

parties); a thorough visual and sometimes exploratory investigation into the project;

formulating and proving a hypothesis; sampling/testing (if necessary); interpreting

laboratory data; report writing; a follow-up meeting with the parties to

explain the report; and if necessary, determine where do we go from here?

Factoring in profit after

overhead and administrative costs, for this type of residential case averages

around many IEP’s tell me it is less than $400.00. And guess who assumes

the liability? Guess who is the fall guy when the information is not favorable

to one or more parties? Guess who has to wait for their money when billing

averages 60-days and we have already paid for the laboratory costs including salary?

Guess who has to chase their money when you did not find favorably for your

customer?

Moffett

From:

iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007

9:07 AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Re: When

do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,

Interesting. Things are much different down here (and in most

other states) than in CA! I think we should all keep this in mind.

For residential problems ... an insurance provider here will almost

always object and/or refuse to pay for use of an IEP and for any testing at

all. They will ALWAYS pressure the homeowner to use " the insurance company's

own " mold contractors. Their own contractors are the nationwide

franchises whose people (at least in FLA)

are rarely certified in mold; have no mold insurance; and never test.

When the homeowner hires the insurance company's contractor they always are

required to sign something stuck in between other things to sign that says the

insurance provider has not been involved in the selection of the contractor and

the selection is completely the homeowners. If something goes wrong and

the remediation does not work (happens ALL the time) the insurance provider

says they already paid and it was your choice. You should have read the

contract. Then you need to hire an attorney to try to get your money

back. If it it not at least $10K that you lost forget it. Poor or

old people are taken advantage of in horrible ways by this system.

This is how business is in most places outside California. Or it is even worse in

many states. In many states when a water restoration contractor is called

in by the insurance company and mold is found, the insurance company will not

pay for the mold work. But if the contractor does not take care of the

mold they can get sued. So they absorb the cost of the mold clean up in their

water restoration job or simply eat it and and not make money on those jobs or

risk losing the insurance business.

To earn a living here you have to either stay away from the insurance

business or you need to be low cost and nimble and be able to provide both

testing and remediation services for the price the insurance company will

pay their " affiliates " for just remediation. That is not hard to

do. We have two separate companies just like you have. One is for

mold testing and the other is for remediation and re-construction. Both

have their own insurance for the work they do. By being able to

quote and perform multiple services we can compete just fine. Taking a

few samples is cheap unless you have to bring in a separate party which we

rarely do except for complex cases.

Or to earn a living here you need to also provide rebuild services in

which case the affiliates cannot compete on price unless the jobs are really

simple.

Just as some people have suggested in this user group we try to explain

why we can do a better job by testing, investigating, documentating, etc.

But by in large the business goes down based on price. We use Xactimate

to better understand the cost basis in our county and we get whatever business

we can where the prices are such that we can provide services we stand behind

with our unconditional warranty.

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

>

> All:

> The truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. I have seen

many IEP protocols that are boiler plate, have little to do with the

building at hand, and every section ends with something like " ....and

if you find anything different after you start, use your best

professional judgment. "

> On the other hand I have seen many that instruct and quantify

the work to be done, often wall by wall. They also have sections

that end with " ...and if you find anything different after you start,

use your best professional judgment. " Often times much is left to

judgment of the remediator, because he is the one on the job every

day.

> As for a guarantee for protocols, good luck. I saw one IEP out

of TN that had an indemnification & hold harmless agreement in his

contract with the insuror. When told that they could not sign that,

he took it out and then turned in a protocol to tear out the entire

house, effectively creating an unnecessary total loss.

> S520, flawed as you might think that it is, is the standard at

the moment. Dr. Rosen is correct in stating that it is often up to

the remediator to determine if an IEP is necessary. Remember,

though, that just because you SAY an IEP is not necessary means that

it is true. A reasonable standard of care must be followed. DR.

Rosen, stop testing your own work. It is a direct conflict of

interest according to S520 and all common sense. Once that fact

becomes known in a conflict all your credibility is out the window.

If post remediation testing is indicated it should be done by a third

party, paid for by the property owner.

> The general tone of this thread is way wrong. I have rarely

seen such a continued lack of respect on both sides of an issue. Dr.

Rosen, not all IEP's are idiots. I predict about the same ratio can

be found in contractors. As for you IEP's, most contractors are not

idiots, just hard working guys trying to do the right thing.

> There is too much bluster & bullying on this board lately. I

have been a part of it since it started, way back when all we talked

about was candle soot. Please keep your comments professional and

courteous. If you disagree, be nice about it. This particular thread

has sunk to a new low of name calling & disrespect, & I for one will

delete the posts on this thread until it is dead and gone. I

encourage the moderator to hurry its demise.

>

> Cole, CR

> Sentry Construction Company, Inc.

>

>

>

>

>

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

____________ __

> No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go

> with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile

.. Get started.

> http://mobile.

yahoo.com/ mail

>

We won't tell. Get

more on shows you hate to love

(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

Everyone is raving about the

all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

[Guest guest]

I believe that you have put your finger on the issue. When I

acquired my certifications, I was shocked at the training. How to

turn a pump on !!! I am in the middle of a project right now, with

Ryland homes, where my investigation found probable roofing leaks.

Two testing companies were called in , by the property manager, (

multi-unit condo building ) and all tests came back good. I was

hired by the landlord to investigate the tenants complaints. Long

story short, we found a moldy smell coming from the electrical

receptacles. My final report called for the sheetrock to be removed,

the water trail followed, the roof fixed, the mold removed, and the

bedroom rebuilt. I estimated a 1 week repair and rebuild. The

property manager called a CIH, to work with the remediator. This was

the week before Thanksgiving…..they just removed the sheetrock on

Monday and guess what was there. The testing bill is over 4k and

everyone shows clean. Ryland has deep pockets and the property

manager swears by the CIH. I wonder if he send a 1099 to the

property manager.

Marty

>

> Radondude said .... " Writing a protocol, based on testing, is

foolish. "

>

> That is what I have been trying to get across to the

(inexperienced) IEPs out there.

>

> But people focus on testing because they do not have adequate

training on construction and do not know how to " investigate " .

>

>

> Rosen, Ph.D.

> www.Mold-Books.com

>

>

>

>

>

> Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

>

> I guess I'll stick my two cents in…conflict of interest is a very

> important subject. For the record, I conduct mold investigations

and

> testing when needed. I have taught for the board of realtors, in

some

> capacity, since 1990. I spend hours each week trying to explain to

> Realtors what the test results, in their hands, might mean. Without

a

> through investigation, most test results mean nothing. When I issue

a

> report, I always recommend that the mitigation contractor leave

> allowances for more problems when the walls are opened. Writing a

> protocol, based on testing, is foolish.

>

> Marty Emerick

> Md. Professional Mold Services LLC

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

______________________________________________________________________

______________

> Yahoo! Music Unlimited

> Access over 1 million songs.

> http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited

>

[Guest guest]

" ...unconditional warranty "

HUH?????????????

S.C.

> >

> >

> >

> > I don't disagree with anything you said .... except about

testing

> my own work. Of course there are fine IEPs that write fine

> protocols. But they are expensive and almost never found on every

> day jobs. We all know this because in general, insurance will not

> pay for fine IEPs to write custom protocols and then update the

> protocol as the walls are opened for every day jobs. So what is a

> remediator to do?

> >

> > About testing ...

> >

> > As a remediator I do my own post-remdiation testing for quality

> control purposes. If there is an IEP and they do their own

> additional testing fine. Then there are two sets of test results.

If

> there is no IEP and no one else to take tests, I take tests to

know

> if more cleaning is needed and to protect myself from liability.

If

> you don't do post remediation testing and lets say there is

another

> water problem and mold growth and the house or office is

contaminated

> 6 months later ... how can you show that you did not actually

leave

> the house contaminated.

> >

> > I recommend that all mold remediators do their own baseline (pre-

> remediation) testing also so they can determine what background

level

> of mold is present as this affects how the job will be quoted. How

> much cleaning must be done? If Stachy is present you may need more

> cleaning. If the house is " dirty " you may not be able to clear the

> house unless the carpet is replaced and then you need to put that

in

> your proposal.

> >

> > At least in our state the insurance providers do not want to pay

> for testing. They rarely pay. As remediators we just absorb this

> cost as part of doing business. We do many $2K mold jobs (1-2

sheets

> of drywall) expecially for real estate transactions. These include

> remediation and drywall and baseboard build back and then white

> primer paint. If we have to do 4 or 6 samples which can cost us

$100-

> $150 approximately that is a cost of doing business. No one is

going

> to pay for a decent IEP on any job this size or even somewhat

> bigger.

> >

> > When we provide a certificate for our work we state that we did

not

> leave the work area or surrounding area contaminated with mold as

a

> result of the remediation. We can't do that without testing.

> >

> > Rosen, Ph.D.

> > www.Mold-Free. org

> >

> >

> > Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

> >

> > All:

> > The truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. I have seen

> many IEP protocols that are boiler plate, have little to do with

the

> building at hand, and every section ends with something

like " ....and

> if you find anything different after you start, use your best

> professional judgment. "

> > On the other hand I have seen many that instruct and quantify

> the work to be done, often wall by wall. They also have sections

> that end with " ...and if you find anything different after you

start,

> use your best professional judgment. " Often times much is left to

> judgment of the remediator, because he is the one on the job every

> day.

> > As for a guarantee for protocols, good luck. I saw one IEP out

> of TN that had an indemnification & hold harmless agreement in his

> contract with the insuror. When told that they could not sign

that,

> he took it out and then turned in a protocol to tear out the

entire

> house, effectively creating an unnecessary total loss.

> > S520, flawed as you might think that it is, is the standard at

> the moment. Dr. Rosen is correct in stating that it is often up to

> the remediator to determine if an IEP is necessary. Remember,

> though, that just because you SAY an IEP is not necessary means

that

> it is true. A reasonable standard of care must be followed. DR.

> Rosen, stop testing your own work. It is a direct conflict of

> interest according to S520 and all common sense. Once that fact

> becomes known in a conflict all your credibility is out the

window.

> If post remediation testing is indicated it should be done by a

third

> party, paid for by the property owner.

> > The general tone of this thread is way wrong. I have rarely

> seen such a continued lack of respect on both sides of an issue.

Dr.

> Rosen, not all IEP's are idiots. I predict about the same ratio

can

> be found in contractors. As for you IEP's, most contractors are

not

> idiots, just hard working guys trying to do the right thing.

> > There is too much bluster & bullying on this board lately. I

> have been a part of it since it started, way back when all we

talked

> about was candle soot. Please keep your comments professional and

> courteous. If you disagree, be nice about it. This particular

thread

> has sunk to a new low of name calling & disrespect, & I for one

will

> delete the posts on this thread until it is dead and gone. I

> encourage the moderator to hurry its demise.

> >

> > Cole, CR

> > Sentry Construction Company, Inc.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

> ____________ __

> > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go

> > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile . Get started.

> > http://mobile. yahoo.com/ mail

> >

>

>

>

>

>

> We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love

> (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

>

>

>

>

>

_____________________________________________________________________

_______________

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> Check out " Tonight's Picks " on Yahoo! TV.

> http://tv.yahoo.com/

>

[Guest guest]

thanks for the revision.......most of the projects that I'm involved

with are 30k and under. When it is not real estate sale related,

life is much easier. Everyone works for the betterment of the

client, and no realtors are involved. 3% commission, there is your

conflict of interest

Marty

Dr. ,

>

> We finally have a shred of common ground. Congratulations on

> agreeing with a perspective that makes sense.

>

> I'd like to ammend/edit Marty's statement to add a bit more clarity

and

> definition, if I may, from my (a Consultant's) perspective:

>

> " Writing a protocol, performing an assessment or PRV evaluation,

> based on testing alone, is foolish, blatantly incomplete &

irresponsible,

> and represents nothing short of professional negligence. "

>

> I think that about sums up that point.

>

> Also, for the record, I despise the use of the term " IEP " . It's

vague,

> general and misleading, and on the same level with the term " IH " .

> Both of these terms allow the inexperienced and unqualified to hold

> themselves out to a confused public as having a far greater level

of

> professional expertise than they may actually posess.

>

> Chuck Reaney, CIAQC, CIAQP

>

>

>

>

>

> Radondude said .... " Writing a protocol, based on testing, is

> foolish. "

>

> That is what I have been trying to get across to the (inexperienced)

> IEPs out there.

>

> But people focus on testing because they do not have adequate

> training

> on construction and do not know how to " investigate " .

>

>

> Rosen, Ph.D.

> www.Mold-Books.com

>

>

>

>

>

> Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

>

> I guess I'll stick my two cents in…conflict of interest is a very

> important subject. For the record, I conduct mold investigations and

> testing when needed. I have taught for the board of realtors, in

some

> capacity, since 1990. I spend hours each week trying to explain to

> Realtors what the test results, in their hands, might mean. Without

a

> through investigation, most test results mean nothing. When I issue

a

> report, I always recommend that the mitigation contractor leave

> allowances for more problems when the walls are opened. Writing a

> protocol, based on testing, is foolish.

>

> Marty Emerick

> Md. Professional Mold Services LLC

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________________________________

> ______________

> ______________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs.

> http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited

>

[Guest guest]

Building contractors in this state have to warranty their work. We rip out all the bad stuff and replace with new. Warranty is no problem.

Rosen

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?> > > > All:> > The truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. I have seen > many IEP protocols that are boiler plate, have little to do with the > building at hand, and every section ends with something like "....and > if you find anything different after you start, use your best > professional judgment."> > On the other hand I have seen many that instruct and quantify > the work to be done, often wall by wall. They also have sections > that end with "...and if you find anything different after you start, > use your best professional judgment." Often times much is

left to > judgment of the remediator, because he is the one on the job every > day.> > As for a guarantee for protocols, good luck. I saw one IEP out > of TN that had an indemnification & hold harmless agreement in his > contract with the insuror. When told that they could not sign that, > he took it out and then turned in a protocol to tear out the entire > house, effectively creating an unnecessary total loss.> > S520, flawed as you might think that it is, is the standard at > the moment. Dr. Rosen is correct in stating that it is often up to > the remediator to determine if an IEP is necessary. Remember, > though, that just because you SAY an IEP is not necessary means that > it is true. A reasonable standard of care must be followed. DR. > Rosen, stop testing your own work. It is a direct conflict of > interest according to S520 and all common sense.

Once that fact > becomes known in a conflict all your credibility is out the window. > If post remediation testing is indicated it should be done by a third > party, paid for by the property owner.> > The general tone of this thread is way wrong. I have rarely > seen such a continued lack of respect on both sides of an issue. Dr. > Rosen, not all IEP's are idiots. I predict about the same ratio can > be found in contractors. As for you IEP's, most contractors are not > idiots, just hard working guys trying to do the right thing.> > There is too much bluster & bullying on this board lately. I > have been a part of it since it started, way back when all we talked > about was candle soot. Please keep your comments professional and > courteous. If you disagree, be nice about it. This particular thread > has sunk to a new low of name calling &

disrespect, & I for one will > delete the posts on this thread until it is dead and gone. I > encourage the moderator to hurry its demise.> > > > Cole, CR> > Sentry Construction Company, Inc.> > > > > > > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> ____________ __> > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile . Get started.> > http://mobile. yahoo.com/ mail> >> > > > > > We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love> (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.> > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _____________ ___> TV dinner still cooling?

> Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.> http://tv.yahoo. com/>

We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

[Guest guest]

,

Understood. In Florida we have $10K mold cap on insurance claims. Under $10K the insurance companies do not want pay for protocols and any pre-remediation testing. They will pay $800 for post-remediation testing if push comes to shove.

Over $10K they want a protocol since this does not cost the insurance company as this comes out of the $10K max.

So there is very little margin for IEPs doing protocols. If you are a state licensed building contractor and do the work you have to warranty the job for 1 year. But there is margin in the remediation and build back work to justify.

As mentioned we take all necessary tests and absorb in our remediation costs. Actually the building contractor (which is just me and a couple of guys plus subs) does the work and the building contractor subs the assessment to Certified Mold Free which is a separate company that does IEP type of stuff.

Partick in Florida it is hard for IEPs to make a living given the insurance environment.

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?> > All:> The truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. I have seen many IEP protocols that are boiler plate, have little to do with the building at hand, and every section ends with something like "....and if you find anything different after you start, use your best professional judgment."> On the other hand I have seen many that instruct and quantify the work to be done, often wall by wall. They also have sections that end with "...and if you find anything different after you start, use your best professional judgment." Often times much is left to judgment of the remediator, because he is the one on the job every

day.> As for a guarantee for protocols, good luck. I saw one IEP out of TN that had an indemnification & hold harmless agreement in his contract with the insuror. When told that they could not sign that, he took it out and then turned in a protocol to tear out the entire house, effectively creating an unnecessary total loss.> S520, flawed as you might think that it is, is the standard at the moment. Dr. Rosen is correct in stating that it is often up to the remediator to determine if an IEP is necessary. Remember, though, that just because you SAY an IEP is not necessary means that it is true. A reasonable standard of care must be followed. DR. Rosen, stop testing your own work. It is a direct conflict of interest according to S520 and all common sense. Once that fact becomes known in a conflict all your credibility is out the window. If post remediation testing is indicated it should be done by a third

party, paid for by the property owner.> The general tone of this thread is way wrong. I have rarely seen such a continued lack of respect on both sides of an issue. Dr. Rosen, not all IEP's are idiots. I predict about the same ratio can be found in contractors. As for you IEP's, most contractors are not idiots, just hard working guys trying to do the right thing.> There is too much bluster & bullying on this board lately. I have been a part of it since it started, way back when all we talked about was candle soot. Please keep your comments professional and courteous. If you disagree, be nice about it. This particular thread has sunk to a new low of name calling & disrespect, & I for one will delete the posts on this thread until it is dead and gone. I encourage the moderator to hurry its demise.> > Cole, CR> Sentry Construction Company, Inc.> > > >

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _____________ __> No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile . Get started.> http://mobile. yahoo.com/ mail>

We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

[Guest guest]

Here it is. Let people talklong enough and they hang themselves. Mr.

Rosen stated he is an approved training provider in the State of

Texas, the company is " Certified Mold-Free " . NOw in his latest post

this " professional " states:

" Actually the building contractor (which is just me and a couple of

guys plus subs) does the work and the building contractor subs the

assessment to Certified Mold Free which is a separate company that

does IEP type of stuff. "

So how do you advertise as a " Accredited Mold Training Provider " in

Texas as " Certified Mold Free " and you work in Florida as

the " Building Contractor " and then hire " Certified Mold Free " to do

your testing. SO " YOU " hire " YOU " to do the testing?

Man, you are an odordiferous piece of work. You need to leave the

industry and I think that those that are in the IAQA need report this

certificate holder and member of IAQA to review this guy's

association and with this clear misrepresentation needt sto have his

certs revoked!

That is IF the IAQA is going to mean anything and stand for

something. You want myself and others to respect the cert., they you

have to defend it against this kind of thing.

Dana Brwon

GEBCO

Hurst, TX

[Guest guest]

:

You point out a VERY significant issue that I also face, i.e., for the small amount of profit on each job, the exposure and risk is thousands of times greater. This is NOT a good business practice, and the only way I manage it is to spend the extra effort and cost, which is often not billable, and manage the risk to keep it as small as possible. I, for one, have not discussed this with my insurers, for fear that they would increase my premiums by a thousand-fold. We are also well-diversified, and this practice area represents less than 20% of our efforts.

,

In my back yard, the price of the IEP and sampling is not the issue. Ethics and biases are more of an issue for me. I am involved with high-profile projects as well as the everyday ones. I am there as the go-between consultant who is expected to assume the major portion of liability for the project.

I do not know if you have talked to your insurance errors and omissions underwriters, we have. The underwriters are surprised that for the small amount of money we bring in as profit on each job, our exposure and risk to the insurance company is thousands of times greater.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 2:24 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Stacey

In our area, an IEP charges a min of $895 for a protocol and limited pre-remediation testing.

And another $895 - $1295 for post-remediation testing and a report.

We do the pre-remediation testing; the remediation work; build back; flat white painting; baseboard; cleaning; documentation; post-remediation testing and report for min of $2K.

That is ripping people off?

Can you do this for less? No one in this area can provide this for less unless they have no license, insurance or certifications.

Rosen, Ph.D.

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

>

> All:

> The truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. I have seen

many IEP protocols that are boiler plate, have little to do with the

building at hand, and every section ends with something like " ....and

if you find anything different after you start, use your best

professional judgment. "

> On the other hand I have seen many that instruct and quantify

the work to be done, often wall by wall. They also have sections

that end with " ...and if you find anything different after you start,

use your best professional judgment. " Often times much is left to

judgment of the remediator, because he is the one on the job every

day.

> As for a guarantee for protocols, good luck. I saw one IEP out

of TN that had an indemnification & hold harmless agreement in his

contract with the insuror. When told that they could not sign that,

he took it out and then turned in a protocol to tear out the entire

house, effectively creating an unnecessary total loss.

> S520, flawed as you might think that it is, is the standard at

the moment. Dr. Rosen is correct in stating that it is often up to

the remediator to determine if an IEP is necessary. Remember,

though, that just because you SAY an IEP is not necessary means that

it is true. A reasonable standard of care must be followed. DR.

Rosen, stop testing your own work. It is a direct conflict of

interest according to S520 and all common sense. Once that fact

becomes known in a conflict all your credibility is out the window.

If post remediation testing is indicated it should be done by a third

party, paid for by the property owner.

> The general tone of this thread is way wrong. I have rarely

seen such a continued lack of respect on both sides of an issue. Dr.

Rosen, not all IEP's are idiots. I predict about the same ratio can

be found in contractors. As for you IEP's, most contractors are not

idiots, just hard working guys trying to do the right thing.

> There is too much bluster & bullying on this board lately. I

have been a part of it since it started, way back when all we talked

about was candle soot. Please keep your comments professional and

courteous. If you disagree, be nice about it. This particular thread

has sunk to a new low of name calling & disrespect, & I for one will

delete the posts on this thread until it is dead and gone. I

encourage the moderator to hurry its demise.

>

> Cole, CR

> Sentry Construction Company, Inc.

>

>

>

>

>

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

____________ __

> No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go

> with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.

> http://mobile. yahoo.com/ mail <http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail>

>

We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http:/tv.yahoo.com/collections/265%0d%0a>

(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http:/tv.yahoo.com/collections/265%0d%0a>

[Guest guest]

Ditto from this part of the world as we know it, Stace.

Thank you to you and for illucidating these points.

Chuck Reaney

To: iequality

Date sent: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 01:16:49 -0000

Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Send reply to: iequality

[ Double-click this line for list subscription options ]

Thank you .

I don't think most good consultants are rich consultants - myself

included... Also throw all of the single moms, elderly people, etc.

that many of us try to help for greatly reduced fees or for free.

I see people spending too much money oftentimes on something that a

regular contractor could have handled safely for 1/4 of the cost...

Stacey Champion

> > > > > > > > I don't disagree

with anything you said .... except about testing > my own work. Of

course there are fine IEPs that write fine > protocols. But they are

expensive and almost never found on every > day jobs. We all know

this

because in general, insurance will not > pay for fine IEPs to write

custom protocols and then update the > protocol as the walls are

opened for every day jobs. So what is a > remediator to do? > > > >

About testing ... > > > > As a remediator I do my own post-remdiation

testing for quality > control purposes. If there is an IEP and they do

their own > additional testing fine. Then there are two sets of test

results. If > there is no IEP and no one else to take tests, I take

tests to know > if more cleaning is needed and to protect myself from

liability. If > you don't do post remediation testing and lets say

there is another > water problem and mold growth and the house or

office is contaminated > 6 months later ... how can you show that you

did not actually leave > the house contaminated. > > > > I recommend

that all mold remediators do their own baseline (pre- > remediation)

testing also so they can determine what background level > of mold is

present as this affects how the job will be quoted. How > much

cleaning must be done? If Stachy is present you may need more >

cleaning. If the house is " dirty " you may not be able to clear the >

house unless the carpet is replaced and then you need to put that in >

your proposal. > > > > At least in our state the insurance providers

do not want to pay > for testing. They rarely pay. As remediators we

just absorb this > cost as part of doing business. We do many $2K

mold

jobs (1-2 sheets > of drywall) expecially for real estate

transactions. These include > remediation and drywall and baseboard

build back and then white > primer paint. If we have to do 4 or 6

samples which can cost us $100- > $150 approximately that is a cost

of

doing business. No one is going > to pay for a decent IEP on any job

this size or even somewhat > bigger. > > > > When we provide a

certificate for our work we state that we did not > leave the work

area or surrounding area contaminated with mold as a > result of the

remediation. We can't do that without testing. > > > > Rosen,

Ph.D. > > www.Mold-Free. org > > > > > > Re: When do

you

follow a IEP's Protocol? > > > > All: > > The truth, as usual, is

somewhere in the middle. I have seen > many IEP protocols that are

boiler plate, have little to do with the > building at hand, and every

section ends with something like " ....and > if you find anything

different after you start, use your best > professional judgment. " > >

On the other hand I have seen many that instruct and quantify > the

work to be done, often wall by wall. They also have sections > that

end with " ...and if you find anything different after you start, > use

your best professional judgment. " Often times much is left to >

judgment of the remediator, because he is the one on the job every >

day. > > As for a guarantee for protocols, good luck. I saw one IEP

out > of TN that had an indemnification & hold harmless agreement in

his > contract with the insuror. When told that they could not sign

that, > he took it out and then turned in a protocol to tear out the

entire > house, effectively creating an unnecessary total loss. > >

S520, flawed as you might think that it is, is the standard at > the

moment. Dr. Rosen is correct in stating that it is often up to > the

remediator to determine if an IEP is necessary. Remember, > though,

that just because you SAY an IEP is not necessary means that > it is

true. A reasonable standard of care must be followed. DR. > Rosen,

stop testing your own work. It is a direct conflict of > interest

according to S520 and all common sense. Once that fact > becomes

known

in a conflict all your credibility is out the window. > If post

remediation testing is indicated it should be done by a third > party,

paid for by the property owner. > > The general tone of this thread is

way wrong. I have rarely > seen such a continued lack of respect on

both sides of an issue. Dr. > Rosen, not all IEP's are idiots. I

predict about the same ratio can > be found in contractors. As for you

IEP's, most contractors are not > idiots, just hard working guys

trying to do the right thing. > > There is too much bluster & bullying

on this board lately. I > have been a part of it since it started, way

back when all we talked > about was candle soot. Please keep your

comments professional and > courteous. If you disagree, be nice about

it. This particular thread > has sunk to a new low of name calling &

disrespect, & I for one will > delete the posts on this thread until

it is dead and gone. I > encourage the moderator to hurry its demise.

> > > > Cole, CR > > Sentry Construction Company, Inc. > > > > >

> > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________

_________ _ > ____________ __ > > No need to miss a message.

Get email

on-the-go > > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile . Get started. > >

http://mobile. <http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail> yahoo.com/ mail > > >

> > _____ > > We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love >

<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http:/tv.yahoo.com/collections/265

%0d%0a> > > (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. >

<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http:/tv.yahoo.com/collections/265

%0d%0a> > > > > _____ > > Everyone is raving about the >

<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=45083/*http:/advision.webevents.yahoo.co

m

/mailbe > ta> all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. >

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[Guest guest]

Dana,

Again, you've come though and done the homework. Thanks on

behalf of all of us who actually give a damn.

I agree with you completely, regarding the IAQA. I basically think

they're a good organization, and are in the midst of " finding their feet " ,

so to speak.

I had a good conversation with Glenn Fellman recently and among

other things discussed, was my previous " rant " about the IAQA

clearing some things up, and listing contractors and consultants

separately on their web site. He told me that much has been

accomplished, and I honestly haven't had the time to go to the site

recently to see all of the changes. Glenn is a good man though, and I

have no reason whatsoever to doubt his word.

I get the definate feeling that now that the membership and cert wars

are over, and the kingdoms and territories reasonably and amicably

divided between IAQA, AmIAQC and IESO, that the next logical part of

the growing pains process is going to be to begin to address the kinds

of issues that many of us have found to be problematic, particularly for

example, the conflict of interest issues.

I'm giving the IAQA the benefit of the doubt on that for now, at least,

and am hopeful that their growing pains will, sooner rather than later,

result in the organization growing some genuine " teeth " , along with

another anatomically analogous part, and will start to genuinely look at

and address some of these important issues.

They are faced with great challenges now, and it is my genuine hope

that they sieze the opportunities before them and do their part to move

the industry ahead. The next few months may be critical in their taking

advantage of those opportunities by making some difficult decisions,

taking some solid stands on " sensitive " but very meaningful issues,

and begining to forthrightly step into the necessary role of genuine

industry policing and enforcement.

All of our ethics and credibility are on the line, as well as their own,

and they will either take up the challenges, or fail to, in what may be

one of the most important stages of growth in the history of the

existance of IAQA.

Let's keep turning up the heat, encourage them to do what's

necessary, offer assistance, and hope for the best for now.

Cheers,

Chuck Reaney, CIAQetc.

Here it is. Let people talklong enough and they hang themselves. Mr.

Rosen stated he is an approved training provider in the State of

Texas, the company is " Certified Mold-Free " . NOw in his latest post

this " professional " states:

" Actually the building contractor (which is just me and a couple of

guys plus subs) does the work and the building contractor subs the

assessment to Certified Mold Free which is a separate company that

does IEP type of stuff. "

So how do you advertise as a " Accredited Mold Training Provider " in

Texas as " Certified Mold Free " and you work in Florida as the

" Building Contractor " and then hire " Certified Mold Free " to do your

testing. SO " YOU " hire " YOU " to do the testing?

Man, you are an odordiferous piece of work. You need to leave the

industry and I think that those that are in the IAQA need report this

certificate holder and member of IAQA to review this guy's association

and with this clear misrepresentation needt sto have his certs

revoked!

That is IF the IAQA is going to mean anything and stand for

something. You want myself and others to respect the cert., they you

have to defend it against this kind of thing.

Dana Brwon

GEBCO

Hurst, TX

__________________________________________________

Alpha Environmental, Inc.

Indoor Air Quality & Environmental Consulting

624 W. Saint s Dr.

Media, PA 19063

Phone: Fax: Cell:

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

:

well thought out and stated.

Marty

> >

> >> >

> >> >

> >> > In general, when an IEP does an assessment they do not open

walls,

> >> > remove baseboard, cut open AC ducts ... they usually only

sample and

> >> > take other measurements. Then when the test results come back

from

> >> > the lab they (some how) come up with a mold remediation

protocol.

> >> >

> >> > The question is how often does a remediation contractor follow

the

> >> > IEP's recommendations?

> >> >

> >> > As a remediation contractor I find that less than 5% of the

time is

> >> > the IEP protocol on the money. Usually they tell you to take

out

> >> > too much drywall. If you assume that the protocol is on the

money

> >> > and you quote a job based on it, you will probably lose the job

> >> > because your quote will be too high.

> >> >

> >> > The only way to tell how much mold is hiding in the walls is

to open

> >> > the walls. At that point you can develop the mold remediation

> >> > protocol that makes sense for the job.

> >> >

> >> > Often times there is only mold behind the baseboard but the

walls

> >> > above the base are clear? Why remove 4 feet of wall board in

that

> >> > case?

> >> >

> >> > Quite often we see false positives on wall cavity sampling.

There

> >> > is zero mold elevation in the living spaces and a few dozen

Pen/Asp

> >> > in a wall cavity test (perhaps being sucked from the attic)

and the

> >> > IEP recommends removing 4 feet of wall.

> >> >

> >> > We never blindly follow an IEP's protocol. It is usually way

off

> >> > the mark. We are up front with the homeowner about this issue

before

> >> > we start. Once in a while we lose a job because of it, but

almost

> >> > always the client understands that you will know best about

these

> >> > issues once the baseboard is off, or the walls are opened.

> >> >

> >> > We provide a final remediation certificate based on

remediating the

> >> > areas mentioned in the IEP report.

> >> >

> >> > Rosen, Ph.D.

> >> > AmIAQC C.I.E.C

> >> > www.Mold-Free.org <http://www.Mold-Free.org>

> >> >

> >> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Mike:

our experiences appear to mirror one another. that is to say, they're

not the same, but complementary.

the majority of the remediation contractors I've encountered over the

past 16 years of full-time experience in this arena are, more often than

not, unqualified (if not grossly inept). therefore, the guidance and

oversight of a truly qualified enviro consultant is needed.

the carpet cleaners' perception (if one ounce is good, two ounces must

be better) is exemplary.

interesting isn't it, how we each have our own specific experiences and

perceptions?

Wane

>

> Oooopps, I found a bunch of IEQuality posts in my Junk mail folder.

Can¹t

> explain why. But one of Chuck¹s, even though dated, warranted a

response.

>

> Chuck...You are correct, I come across some very inept IEPs, and I

know of

> some good ones too, but it seems like the inept out-number to good.

> Moreover, like a bad meal at a bad restaurant, you tend to remember

the

> worst of the worst. Usually the worst of the IEPs I come across are in

> general smart folks, with college degrees, many are CIHs, but not a

spec of

> construction background/experience. It is appalling what I see as

> work-product from them. It proves that anyone can call them self a

mold

> assessor by going to a short-course, getting a certificate that allows

them

> to place some initials behind their name, and POOF they be a mold

> assessor/IEP! They can collect samples, write a remediation protocol,

and

> instruct a licensed contract how to perform. It is ludicrous!

>

> IMHO, The mold and remediation industry is often causing more harm

than

> good, the general public¹s perception is bad, and politicians are

trying to

> ³rein in² the abuses, only to promulgate regulations that are

onerous and

> provincial and the general public gets screwed again. Moreover, all

the

> competing environmental organizations do not help one bit; there are a

> plethora of mold inspection, assessment, and remediation guidance

documents

> being published, about three per year, each being touted as the

³state of

> the art.² How many times a year does the ³art² really change?

>

> We as consumers are have lost in the end. Does anyone still have

insurance

> coverage for water losses? Does it have a $5K or $10K cap on coverage?

We

> all have lost insurance coverage of our homes BECAUSE of the mold

industry.

> Thank you very much!

>

> While I agree that significant colonization of biologicals warrant

some

> diligent protocols, cautious methods, and significant remediation, so

much

> of the little stuff needs to be treated differently and in a more cost

> effective effective manner. The position of: ³If in doubt, rip it

out² has

> got to go! It is not practical. The IEPs, protocols, and remediation

> guidance documents that do not put cost on a VERY HIGH pedestal of

> consideration, have got to go! It is not cost-effective to ignore the

cost

> of remediation. Money cannot buy happiness, but it is far ahead of

what

> ever is in second place. Someone is going to foot the bill.

>

> I agree with Chuck...there are few credible certifications for this

practice

> area, and the term IEP should be retired; it lends false credibility

to an

> otherwise confusing practice area.

>

> For what it is worth....

>

>

[Guest guest]

Tony:

Thank you for the correction. Yes....most contractors are not “bonded” (although I am, but my bonding has nothing to do with my construction work). Contractors have a bonding ability with a bonding limit; they are not, per se, bonded. To be a licensed contractor in California, one must carry a minimum $10,000 bonding ability/limit. In general, this is a Performance Bond. However, let me clarify that a Payment Bond has nothing to do with a contractor’s ability, or inability, to complete the work agreed to under contract – that is what a Performance Bond is for. A Payment Bond ensures that the General Contractor pays all of the subcontractors and materials suppliers on a project, to ensure, for the Owner, that there will be no mechanics liens from the GC’s inability to pay project costs. A slight correction to what you posted, but an important one no less.

I thought I’d make a comment on the term “bonded”, as in:

‘they are not bonded,’

This term aggravates me to no end when contractors state (or place on their business cards) licensed and bonded.

1. One, I know of none that are “bonded” for all jobs.

2. Two, most do not provide a bond with a project.

3. Most don’t even know what a bond really is.

I figure if I’m whining I should at least educate on bonds.

Simply speaking, a bond is a contractual surety on delivery – of goods, services, or money. Provided by a 3rd party.

The typical bonds are:

l Bid

l Performance

l Payment

Bid - This is a bond for not pulling out of the bid process once submitted. Very common.

Performance – If the contractor doesn’t perform the work, then the bond holder could require that the bonding company get the work performed at the bonding co.’s own cost.

Payment – If the work is not completed, then the bonding co. foots the cost of the uncompleted work up to the bond amt.

On government and larger private projects, one usually requires a bid bond and then either a performance or a payment bond. I prefer a performance bond because if the contractor low-balled it, the owner is stuck pickling up the difference.

If the contractor has a bond claim – they will have very high costs getting another claim through. The bonding company that paid out will be relentless in getting to the contracting companies officers/owners for the losses they incurred.

Those contractors that are good and have good assets get lower bond rates and can achieve an economically competitive edge. Bond rates could be say 1-3% of the job cost to 20% on risky ventures.

But most contractors do NOT Bond a project and are being deceitful by saying they are “bonded”.

Enough said.

Tony

.......................................................................

" Tony " Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE

pH2, LLC

5250 E US 36, Suite 830

Avon, IN 46123

off

fax

cell

90% of Risk Management is knowing where to place the decimal point...any consultant can give you the other 10%(SM)

This message is from pH2. This message and any attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information, and are intended only for the individual or entity identified above as the addressee. If you are not the addressee, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this message and any attachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and attachments (including all copies) and notify the sender by return e-mail or by phone at . Delivery of this message and any attachments to any person other than the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive confidentiality or a privilege. All personal messages express views only of the sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied or distributed without this statement.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Geyer

Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 12:33 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Pat:

While your point regarding Rosen has merit, i.e., “I am perplexed with your decision as a contractor to assume the professional liability of the IEP,” there is another aspect of this that is TOTALLY lost on the IEPs that seem to be incredulous with and his methods. First let me tackle this perception of “professional liability” of the IEP. Most IEPs are not licensed by the state that they practice in, they are not bonded, they do not have liabilities that a 10 and 15-yr statute of limitations imbues upon contractors, and they do not warranty their work. These are REALLY big issues that factor into the long-term liability of any remediation project. This “professional liability of the IEP” is nothing like the professional liabilities you, or I, or others, as PEs have, and it is unlike the liabilities that licensed contractors have. In my opinion, professional liability of the IEP is weak.

As you and I know, many IEPs lack any substantial knowledge or experience with construction, they have never been a contractor or built something of significance, and have no clue that the mold spec that they need to write needs to be a construction-based (not IH-based) spec. A remediation contractor who follows a nonconstruction-based spec that has errors and omissions from a contracting perspective, opens themselves up to significant long-term liabilities. Based on most of the mold specs that I see written by IEPs, if I were a practicing remediation contractor I would be doing the same thing that is doing, i.e., follow my own spec. Your recommendation that disagreements with an IEP need to be aired, is right on. This needs to be their first step in any dispute, i.e., on site resolution. However, how far should a contractor go, and to what effort, to educate the IEP in the merits of construction? Moreover, I all too often see the IEP acting as the Top Dog in a remediation project, and their protocols and position often stinks from a lack of experience - they are a mangy dog in my opinion and they often get argumentative. In this instance, I feel that the contractor is well-justified going to the client/owner and stating....If you want me to warranty this work and put my insurance on the line, I am going to do it my way. This is ’s position AND it may represent the lesser of the liabilities to him and his projects. This concept of the contractor following their own design and spec is nothing new! For those non-construction folks reading this post it is called: Design-Build, and this method of construction has its merits; as well as pitfalls. If done correctly it often saves owners a lot of $$$. All this said, I am not here to say what does is righteous or perfect, but I can support his position, i.e., when the IEPs protocol stinks, use his own. The overly negative comments from IEPs blasting for his opinions and methods are, in my opinion, self-righteous whines from un-licensed, un-bonded, inexperienced mold practitioners who do not, or are unwilling to, warranty their work for 10+ years.

Yes...there are very few Rosen Ph.D.s out there practicing and performing mold remediation. Like you said, most remediation contractors cannot, and should not, do what does, because they lack experience. Moreover, many IEPs lack experience. This said, where is this all going to lead us? I see turmoil, frustration, finger-pointing, accusations, slanderous comments, and all the other negativity that is well-represented here on IEQuality. I wonder how the public views us? We surely are not doing the Public any favors by not getting along and resolving our problems and differences.

For what it is worth

,

I am perplexed with your decision as a contractor to assume the professional liability of the IEP. When you disagree with the IEP, you need to bring this fact up to them so you both are on the same page. In my teaching of contractors, I cannot agree or promote your approach.

Yes, I recognize you have special training as an IEP, but you have to admit that you are unusual and “you are not” the everyday water, sewage, mold remediation restorer. You have elected to take on two roles and assumed two sets of liability.

Respectfully, in this forum or subject, I would appreciate you consider looking outside the box and quit talking about Rosen, Ph.D., and realize there are few Rosen Ph.D.’s, IEP, contractor, out in the market place. Yes, you are special, but , really, some of the things you promote cannot be followed by the everyday, U.S., Canadian, U.K., Aussie, European contractor without increasing their liability.

Moffett

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] <mailto:iequality %5d> On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 4:49 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

I do mold remediation work and many times get a protocol to follow that was written by an IEP. Just about 1 per week. I've never yet followed one and done hundreds of remediations. We replace the protocol with our own.

I explain to the client that you don't know what you have to do until the walls are opened or the baseboard is pulled etc. And then you may have to do more or usually much less than the protocol that was proposed.

I explain that I am licensed building contractor and the guy writing the protocol has no construction experience and has no mold insurance. And then if they have any questions I asked them to see if the guy who wrote the protocol will provide any type of certification or warranty for the work if his protocol is followed...if if he will refund the owner if a wall is torn down and no mold found. So far that has never happened.

Usually the decision is not complex. The person deciding wants:

1.) Low price.

2.) Certificate.

3.) Job done right.

4.) Minimum people to deal with and a single responsible party to guarantee the job.

No doubt if someone wrote a good protocol we would follow it. Usually the protocol we see is some kind of pages and pages boilerplate. Never any clearnace criteria. Ours are 1 page with photos of the walls or areas to be remediated and captions underneath as to what we plan to do.

In Florida a licensed contractor is 100% responsible for work done no matter how many subcontractors he uses. He provides the warranty. He is the target of the lawsuit or Licensing Board actions. People like how this is structured. Simple. We try to keep it simple.

I mentioned earlier that I do much work for attorneys in Florida. We have been running a 1/3 page ad in the Florida Bar News for a long time. Attorneys in our state appear to always recommend that their clients hire someone that takes complete responsibility for a job. They understand the contractor model and how that protects their clients and recommends that model for mold work.

I know things are different in other states such as California. But that is how they are here.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com <http://www.Mold-Books.com>

RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,

You said:

But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new.

The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation.

You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully.

Mark Doughty

Need Mail bonding?

Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A <http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0NTEwOARfcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx?link=ask & amp;sid=396546091> for great tips from Yahoo! Answers <http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0NTEwOARfcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx?link=ask & amp;sid=396546091> users.

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[Guest guest]

:

Yes and no regarding:

“A Payment Bond ensures that the General Contractor

pays all of the subcontractors and materials suppliers on a project, to ensure,

for the Owner, that there will be no mechanics liens from the GC’s

inability to pay project costs. A slight correction to what you posted,

but an important one no less.”

Your term Payment Bond (also used by a number of folks) is another

category (there are a few others as well) I did not discuss (but use in specs).

I chose to split out the Performance Bond into two means of recovery as I have

seen them - in some cases the performance bond allows either performance or

payment , in some cases performance only, in some case payment only (of course

both options leaves the opportunity for the bonding company to minimize losses

by choosing the cheapest route, whereas the payment method is a more fixed risk).

We typically use other means to prevent

subcontractor non-payment issues from occurring and thus when I use the term

Payment bond, I mean something else.

Mea Culpa.

You caught me being lax in explaining my

premise and defining the terms appropriately– but thanks for adding to

it.

Tony

.......................................................................

" Tony " Havics,

CHMM, CIH, PE

pH2, LLC

5250 E US

36, Suite 830

Avon, IN

46123

off

fax

cell

90% of Risk Management is knowing where to

place the decimal point...any consultant can give you the other 10%(SM)

This message is from pH2. This message and

any attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information, and

are intended only for the individual or entity identified above as the

addressee. If you are not the addressee, or if this message has been addressed

to you in error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this

message and any attachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and

attachments (including all copies) and notify the sender by return e-mail or by

phone at . Delivery of this message and any attachments to any

person other than the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive

confidentiality or a privilege. All personal messages express views only of the

sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied or

distributed without this statement.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of

Geyer

Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007

2:49 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Tony:

Thank you for the correction. Yes....most contractors are not

“bonded” (although I am, but my bonding has nothing to do with my

construction work). Contractors have a bonding ability with a bonding

limit; they are not, per se, bonded. To be a licensed contractor in California, one must

carry a minimum $10,000 bonding ability/limit. In general, this is a

Performance Bond. However, let me clarify that a Payment Bond has nothing

to do with a contractor’s ability, or inability, to complete the work

agreed to under contract – that is what a Performance Bond is for.

A Payment Bond ensures that the General Contractor pays all of the

subcontractors and materials suppliers on a project, to ensure, for the Owner,

that there will be no mechanics liens from the GC’s inability to pay

project costs. A slight correction to what you posted, but an important

one no less.

On 2/2/07 11:51 AM, " Tony Havics "

wrote:

I thought I’d make a comment on the term

“bonded”, as in:

‘they are not bonded,’

This term aggravates me to no end when contractors state (or place on their

business cards) licensed and bonded.

1. One, I know of none that are

“bonded” for all jobs.

2. Two, most do not provide a

bond with a project.

3. Most don’t even know

what a bond really is.

I figure if I’m whining I should at least educate on bonds.

Simply speaking, a bond is a contractual surety on delivery – of goods,

services, or money. Provided by a 3rd party.

The typical bonds are:

l

Bid

l

Performance

l

Payment

Bid - This is a bond for not pulling out of the bid process once

submitted. Very common.

Performance – If the contractor doesn’t perform the work, then the

bond holder could require that the bonding company get the work performed at

the bonding co.’s own cost.

Payment – If the work is not completed, then the bonding co. foots the

cost of the uncompleted work up to the bond amt.

On government and larger private projects, one usually requires a bid bond and

then either a performance or a payment bond. I prefer a performance bond

because if the contractor low-balled it, the owner is stuck pickling up the

difference.

If the contractor has a bond claim – they will have very high costs

getting another claim through. The bonding company that paid out will be

relentless in getting to the contracting companies officers/owners for the

losses they incurred.

Those contractors that are good and have good assets get lower bond rates and

can achieve an economically competitive edge. Bond rates could be say

1-3% of the job cost to 20% on risky ventures.

But most contractors do NOT Bond a project and are being deceitful by saying

they are “bonded”.

Enough said.

Tony

.......................................................................

" Tony " Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE

pH2, LLC

5250 E US 36, Suite 830

Avon, IN

46123

off

fax

cell

90% of Risk Management is knowing where to place

the decimal point...any consultant can give you the other 10%(SM)

This message is from pH2. This message and any

attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information, and are

intended only for the individual or entity identified above as the addressee.

If you are not the addressee, or if this message has been addressed to you in

error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this message and any

attachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and attachments

(including all copies) and notify the sender by return e-mail or by phone at

. Delivery of this message and any attachments to any person other

than the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive confidentiality

or a privilege. All personal messages express views only of the sender, which

are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied or distributed without

this statement.

From: iequality

[mailto:iequality ]

On Behalf Of Geyer

Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007

12:33 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Pat:

While your point regarding Rosen has merit, i.e., “I am perplexed

with your decision as a contractor to assume the professional liability of the

IEP,” there is another aspect of this that is TOTALLY lost on the IEPs

that seem to be incredulous with

and his methods. First let me tackle this perception of

“professional liability” of the IEP. Most IEPs are not

licensed by the state that they practice in, they are not bonded, they do not

have liabilities that a 10 and 15-yr statute of limitations imbues upon

contractors, and they do not warranty their work. These are REALLY big

issues that factor into the long-term liability of any remediation project.

This “professional liability of the IEP” is nothing like the

professional liabilities you, or I, or others, as PEs have, and it is unlike

the liabilities that licensed contractors have. In my opinion,

professional liability of the IEP is weak.

As you and I know, many IEPs lack any substantial knowledge or experience with

construction, they have never been a contractor or built something of

significance, and have no clue that the mold spec that they need to write needs

to be a construction-based (not IH-based) spec. A remediation contractor

who follows a nonconstruction-based spec that has errors and omissions from a

contracting perspective, opens themselves up to significant long-term

liabilities. Based on most of the mold specs that I see written by IEPs,

if I were a practicing remediation contractor I would be doing the same thing

that is

doing, i.e., follow my own spec. Your recommendation that disagreements

with an IEP need to be aired, is right on. This needs to be their first

step in any dispute, i.e., on site resolution. However, how far should a

contractor go, and to what effort, to educate the IEP in the merits of

construction? Moreover, I all too often see the IEP acting as the Top Dog

in a remediation project, and their protocols and position often stinks from a

lack of experience - they are a mangy dog in my opinion and they often get

argumentative. In this instance, I feel that the contractor is

well-justified going to the client/owner and stating....If you want me to

warranty this work and put my insurance on the line, I am going to do it my

way. This is ’s

position AND it may represent the lesser of the liabilities to him and his

projects. This concept of the contractor following their own design and

spec is nothing new! For those non-construction folks reading this post

it is called: Design-Build, and this method of construction has its merits; as

well as pitfalls. If done correctly it often saves owners a lot of $$$.

All this said, I am not here to say what does is righteous or perfect, but I can

support his position, i.e., when the IEPs protocol stinks, use his own.

The overly negative comments from IEPs blasting for his opinions and methods are, in my

opinion, self-righteous whines from un-licensed, un-bonded, inexperienced mold

practitioners who do not, or are unwilling to, warranty their work for 10+ years.

Yes...there are very few Rosen Ph.D.s out there practicing and performing

mold remediation. Like you said, most remediation contractors cannot, and

should not, do what

does, because they lack experience. Moreover, many IEPs lack experience.

This said, where is this all going to lead us? I see turmoil,

frustration, finger-pointing, accusations, slanderous comments, and all the

other negativity that is well-represented here on IEQuality. I wonder how

the public views us? We surely are not doing the Public any favors by not

getting along and resolving our problems and differences.

For what it is worth

On 1/30/07 8:24 AM, " Moffett "

wrote:

,

I am perplexed with your decision as a contractor to assume the professional

liability of the IEP. When you disagree with the IEP, you need to bring this

fact up to them so you both are on the same page. In my teaching of

contractors, I cannot agree or promote your approach.

Yes, I recognize you have special training as an IEP, but you have to admit

that you are unusual and “you are not” the everyday water, sewage,

mold remediation restorer. You have elected to take on two roles and assumed

two sets of liability.

Respectfully, in this forum or subject, I would appreciate you consider looking

outside the box and quit talking about Rosen, Ph.D., and realize there are

few Rosen Ph.D.’s, IEP, contractor, out in the market place.

Yes, you are special, but , really, some of the things you promote

cannot be followed by the everyday, U.S.,

Canadian, U.K.,

Aussie, European contractor without increasing their liability.

Moffett

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]

<mailto:iequality %5d>

On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007

4:49 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

I do mold remediation work and many times get a protocol

to follow that was written by an IEP. Just about 1 per week. I've

never yet followed one and done hundreds of remediations. We replace the

protocol with our own.

I explain to the client that you don't know what you have

to do until the walls are opened or the baseboard is pulled etc. And then

you may have to do more or usually much less than the protocol that was

proposed.

I explain that I am licensed building contractor and the

guy writing the protocol has no construction experience and has no mold

insurance. And then if they have any questions I asked them to see if the guy

who wrote the protocol will provide any type of certification or warranty for

the work if his protocol is followed...if if he will refund the owner if a wall

is torn down and no mold found. So far that has never happened.

Usually the decision is not complex. The person

deciding wants:

1.) Low price.

2.) Certificate.

3.) Job done right.

4.) Minimum people to deal with and a single

responsible party to guarantee the job.

No doubt if someone wrote a good protocol we would follow

it. Usually the protocol we see is some kind of pages and pages boilerplate.

Never any clearnace criteria. Ours are 1 page with photos of the walls or areas

to be remediated and captions underneath as to what we plan to do.

In Florida

a licensed contractor is 100% responsible for work done no matter how many

subcontractors he uses. He provides the warranty. He is the target

of the lawsuit or Licensing Board actions. People like how this is structured.

Simple. We try to keep it simple.

I mentioned earlier that I do much work for attorneys in Florida. We have

been running a 1/3 page ad in the Florida Bar News for a long time. Attorneys

in our state appear to always recommend that their clients hire someone that

takes complete responsibility for a job. They understand the contractor model

and how that protects their clients and recommends that model for mold work.

I know things are different in other states such as California. But that is

how they are here.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com <http://www.Mold-Books.com>

RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,

You said:

But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water

damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new.

The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can

document the work with picturesd during the remediation.

You missed the most important part, the part

about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may

want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully.

Mark Doughty

Need Mail bonding?

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[Guest guest]

Rosen: " And give this to the client with a caption underneath - open

wall and remediate mold inside. "

Remediate HOW????????????????

Rosen: " But don't guarantee that this work is done. "

And yes, a qualified and competant consultant WOULD indeed guarantee

that it was done when they come for PRV. That's the point...

Wow. Your " reports " must take you all of 15 minutes. I wish I was

capable of writing the kind of silly 1 page " reports " I often times

see, but alas!

S.C.

> >

> >

> >

> > I don't disagree with anything you said .... except about

testing

> my own work. Of course there are fine IEPs that write fine

> protocols. But they are expensive and almost never found on every

> day jobs. We all know this because in general, insurance will not

> pay for fine IEPs to write custom protocols and then update the

> protocol as the walls are opened for every day jobs. So what is a

> remediator to do?

> >

> > About testing ...

> >

> > As a remediator I do my own post-remdiation testing for quality

> control purposes. If there is an IEP and they do their own

> additional testing fine. Then there are two sets of test results.

If

> there is no IEP and no one else to take tests, I take tests to

know

> if more cleaning is needed and to protect myself from liability.

If

> you don't do post remediation testing and lets say there is

another

> water problem and mold growth and the house or office is

contaminated

> 6 months later ... how can you show that you did not actually

leave

> the house contaminated.

> >

> > I recommend that all mold remediators do their own baseline (pre-

> remediation) testing also so they can determine what background

level

> of mold is present as this affects how the job will be quoted. How

> much cleaning must be done? If Stachy is present you may need more

> cleaning. If the house is " dirty " you may not be able to clear the

> house unless the carpet is replaced and then you need to put that

in

> your proposal.

> >

> > At least in our state the insurance providers do not want to pay

> for testing. They rarely pay. As remediators we just absorb this

> cost as part of doing business. We do many $2K mold jobs (1-2

sheets

> of drywall) expecially for real estate transactions. These include

> remediation and drywall and baseboard build back and then white

> primer paint. If we have to do 4 or 6 samples which can cost us

$100-

> $150 approximately that is a cost of doing business. No one is

going

> to pay for a decent IEP on any job this size or even somewhat

> bigger.

> >

> > When we provide a certificate for our work we state that we did

not

> leave the work area or surrounding area contaminated with mold as

a

> result of the remediation. We can't do that without testing.

> >

> > Rosen, Ph.D.

> > www.Mold-Free. org

> >

> >

> > Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

> >

> > All:

> > The truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. I have seen

> many IEP protocols that are boiler plate, have little to do with

the

> building at hand, and every section ends with something

like " ....and

> if you find anything different after you start, use your best

> professional judgment. "

> > On the other hand I have seen many that instruct and quantify

> the work to be done, often wall by wall. They also have sections

> that end with " ...and if you find anything different after you

start,

> use your best professional judgment. " Often times much is left to

> judgment of the remediator, because he is the one on the job every

> day.

> > As for a guarantee for protocols, good luck. I saw one IEP out

> of TN that had an indemnification & hold harmless agreement in his

> contract with the insuror. When told that they could not sign

that,

> he took it out and then turned in a protocol to tear out the

entire

> house, effectively creating an unnecessary total loss.

> > S520, flawed as you might think that it is, is the standard at

> the moment. Dr. Rosen is correct in stating that it is often up to

> the remediator to determine if an IEP is necessary. Remember,

> though, that just because you SAY an IEP is not necessary means

that

> it is true. A reasonable standard of care must be followed. DR.

> Rosen, stop testing your own work. It is a direct conflict of

> interest according to S520 and all common sense. Once that fact

> becomes known in a conflict all your credibility is out the

window.

> If post remediation testing is indicated it should be done by a

third

> party, paid for by the property owner.

> > The general tone of this thread is way wrong. I have rarely

> seen such a continued lack of respect on both sides of an issue.

Dr.

> Rosen, not all IEP's are idiots. I predict about the same ratio

can

> be found in contractors. As for you IEP's, most contractors are

not

> idiots, just hard working guys trying to do the right thing.

> > There is too much bluster & bullying on this board lately. I

> have been a part of it since it started, way back when all we

talked

> about was candle soot. Please keep your comments professional and

> courteous. If you disagree, be nice about it. This particular

thread

> has sunk to a new low of name calling & disrespect, & I for one

will

> delete the posts on this thread until it is dead and gone. I

> encourage the moderator to hurry its demise.

> >

> > Cole, CR

> > Sentry Construction Company, Inc.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

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>

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_____________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Stacey,

Could you please give us an example of your guarantee?

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?>

> > > All:> > The truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. I have seen > many IEP protocols that are boiler plate, have little to do with the > building at hand, and every section ends with something like "....and > if you find anything different after you start, use your best > professional judgment."> > On the other hand I have seen many that instruct and quantify > the work to be done, often wall by wall. They also have sections > that end with "...and if you find anything different after you start, > use your best professional judgment." Often times much is left to > judgment of the remediator, because he is the one on the job every > day.> > As for a guarantee for protocols, good luck. I saw one IEP out > of TN that had an indemnification & hold harmless agreement in his > contract with the insuror. When told that they could not

sign that, > he took it out and then turned in a protocol to tear out the entire > house, effectively creating an unnecessary total loss.> > S520, flawed as you might think that it is, is the standard at > the moment. Dr. Rosen is correct in stating that it is often up to > the remediator to determine if an IEP is necessary. Remember, > though, that just because you SAY an IEP is not necessary means that > it is true. A reasonable standard of care must be followed. DR. > Rosen, stop testing your own work. It is a direct conflict of > interest according to S520 and all common sense. Once that fact > becomes known in a conflict all your credibility is out the window. > If post remediation testing is indicated it should be done by a third > party, paid for by the property owner.> > The general tone of this thread is way wrong. I have rarely > seen such a

continued lack of respect on both sides of an issue. Dr. > Rosen, not all IEP's are idiots. I predict about the same ratio can > be found in contractors. As for you IEP's, most contractors are not > idiots, just hard working guys trying to do the right thing.> > There is too much bluster & bullying on this board lately. I > have been a part of it since it started, way back when all we talked > about was candle soot. Please keep your comments professional and > courteous. If you disagree, be nice about it. This particular thread > has sunk to a new low of name calling & disrespect, & I for one will > delete the posts on this thread until it is dead and gone. I > encourage the moderator to hurry its demise.> > > > Cole, CR> > Sentry Construction Company, Inc.> > > > > > > > > >

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _> ____________ __> > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile . Get started.> > http://mobile. yahoo.com/ mail <http://mobile. yahoo.com/ mail> > >> > > > > > > We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love <http://us.rd. yahoo.com/ evt=49980/ *http:/tv. yahoo.com/ collections/ 265%0d%0a> > (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. <http://us.rd. yahoo.com/ evt=49980/ *http:/tv. yahoo.com/ collections/ 265%0d%0a> > > > > > > > >

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[Guest guest]

,

Any professional who

takes mold samples and does not provide all materially responsible parties with

substantive data and interpretation, scope of work remediation including personalized

direction (as necessary) throughout the remediation project, is not doing our

industry any favors, and they should leave the business.

From:

iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007

9:34 AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Re: When

do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,

Interesting .... That is exactly my understanding and I agree

completely. This leads to one of my biggest complaints about IEPs.

They generate pages and pages of boilerplate about what should be done on

a job. But don't guarantee that this work is done. That's why we

prefer our own protocols. Our protocols are generally very simple and very

limited. We have a picture of the wall to be opened and removed. And give this

to the client with a caption underneath - open wall and remediate mold inside.

Then we take a picture of the wall during and after remediation and

provide it to the client upon completion.

Our certificate is similar to that required in Texas and states that we

certify that the work performed has eliminated mold in the specified work

areas; that no additional mold was found in adjacent areas; the the work site

and surroundings have been left uncontaminated by the work; and that water

source has been fixed (by us or someone else.)

At least in our state this does much more to eliminate potential

liability that to have an independent guy write some kind of computer generated

protocol and then show up after the job is over to take a few samples.

Rosen

www.Mold-Books.com

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

>

> All:

> The truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. I have seen

many IEP protocols that are boiler plate, have little to do with the

building at hand, and every section ends with something like " ....and

if you find anything different after you start, use your best

professional judgment. "

> On the other hand I have seen many that instruct and quantify

the work to be done, often wall by wall. They also have sections

that end with " ...and if you find anything different after you start,

use your best professional judgment. " Often times much is left to

judgment of the remediator, because he is the one on the job every

day.

> As for a guarantee for protocols, good luck. I saw one IEP out

of TN that had an indemnification & hold harmless agreement in his

contract with the insuror. When told that they could not sign that,

he took it out and then turned in a protocol to tear out the entire

house, effectively creating an unnecessary total loss.

> S520, flawed as you might think that it is, is the standard at

the moment. Dr. Rosen is correct in stating that it is often up to

the remediator to determine if an IEP is necessary. Remember,

though, that just because you SAY an IEP is not necessary means that

it is true. A reasonable standard of care must be followed. DR.

Rosen, stop testing your own work. It is a direct conflict of

interest according to S520 and all common sense. Once that fact

becomes known in a conflict all your credibility is out the window.

If post remediation testing is indicated it should be done by a third

party, paid for by the property owner.

> The general tone of this thread is way wrong. I have rarely

seen such a continued lack of respect on both sides of an issue. Dr.

Rosen, not all IEP's are idiots. I predict about the same ratio can

be found in contractors. As for you IEP's, most contractors are not

idiots, just hard working guys trying to do the right thing.

> There is too much bluster & bullying on this board lately. I

have been a part of it since it started, way back when all we talked

about was candle soot. Please keep your comments professional and

courteous. If you disagree, be nice about it. This particular thread

has sunk to a new low of name calling & disrespect, & I for one will

delete the posts on this thread until it is dead and gone. I

encourage the moderator to hurry its demise.

>

> Cole, CR

> Sentry Construction Company, Inc.

>

>

>

>

>

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

____________ __

> No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go

> with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile

.. Get started.

> http://mobile. yahoo.com/

mail <http://mobile.

yahoo.com/ mail>

>

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