Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

[Guest guest]

,

I agree that all project data (including

documents) should be gathered and filed in the clients file. You also stated

you do the same and that is a very good idea. In your post to Mark you said:

“Do you know how often

I see fine cleaning in an IEP's protocol? Almost never. You know

why because they can't get any mold remediation referrals if they do. IEP

almost always overlook fine cleaning.

Have you ever addressed the IEP and

directed him/her to the appropriate documents that address fine cleaning?

Because if your in the area where is happens more than not, you could help by

making an issue over the absents of the fine cleaning rather than allow the

other IEP off the hook only to place yourself in the hot seat. I think it’s

better to let a job go than not follow industry standards and industry

guidelines.

(was away for a few days)

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007

5:30 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Mark,

I find the opposite to be true...

Do you know how often I see fine cleaning in an IEP's protocol?

Almost never. You know why because they can't get any mold remediation

referrals if they do. IEP almost always overlook fine cleaning.

At our remediation company, we take pre-remediation baseline testing

for all jobs no matter how small and then post-remediation testing and send to

an independent lab.

Does the client need to hire an IEP to turn on a sampling pump? We can

do this ourselves without an IEP's help.

Rosen

RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,

You said:

But most mold

remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall,

cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new.

The home owner can

verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with

picturesd during the remediation.

You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning:

which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP.

The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully.

Mark Doughty

Need Mail bonding?

Go to the Yahoo!

Mail Q & A for great

tips from Yahoo! Answers users.

[Guest guest]

Thanks to Mark,

I am fixing my typo. I miss said what I

meant. I have never seen a protocol that didn’t

have “finer cleaning” in it (Never). Come on, any mold remediation class

one takes addresses the fine cleaning as the most costly portion of the

project. It not a demo project, it’s a microbial project.

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of ciec_bob

Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007

9:09 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Steve,

I don't know where

lives and/or conducts business but I have

never seen a protocol where fine cleaning is involved. Maybe this is

why he is above the rest of all of us and is able to do everything

i.e. consulting, remediation, and clearance.

Seeing asked Mark for his Dec page, maybe would be so kind

as to send us a copy of your insurance policy that states he does

acts in all capacities of the project.

I do not know of an insurance company that would write such a policy

knowing the risk involved.

I wonder if he even has an SOP? and is/was it attached to his

application?

Bob/Ma.

>

> In a message dated 1/23/2007 6:56:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> garyrosen72652@... writes:

> > Do you know how often I see fine cleaning in an IEP's protocol?

Almost

> > never. You know why because they can't get any mold remediation

referrals if

> > they do. IEP almost always overlook fine cleaning.

> >

> What??!! EVERY scope I have ever seen prepared by an IEP calls

for

> damp-wiping and/or HEPA vacuuming of surfaces. I thought this was

the whole purpose of

> using a remediation contractor rather than a handyman to remove

mold. IEPs

> should not be getting mold remediation referrals at all, that's

the remediation

> contractor's job. The whole idea is to maintain the independence

of the two

> for better quality assurance.

>

> Steve Temes

>

[Guest guest]

You don't like the Texas Regs,... fine, don't work in

Texas. But all your posting here is not anything like the reality I

am seeing.

I don't and, don't you worry, I won't. I wonder if anyone else in Texas sees the same reality you do. I have to honestly say that I think you are ideally suited to teach the Texas mold regs. You seem to enjoy knowing the regulations as much as I enjoy helping real people resolve IAQ problems cost-effectively.

I would just ask others to study the actual benefits as well as the negative consequences that the Texas mold regs have brought to the residents of the state before doing what Texas did out of desperation during a homeowners insurance crisis. Like Dana said, the regs have nothing to do with public health or IAQ. And, like he also said, if an industry can't regulate itself, the government has the right to do it for them.

Steve Temes

[Guest guest]

Bob/Ma.

We don't use other IEPs. We do our own assessment along with the remediation and don't take jobs where we would leave the place dirty.

My point was that there is an inherent conflict with using an IEP. They need more work and are often willing overlook cleaning as part of their protocol. If they specify a low cost solution there is more money in the pot for them.

It is typically better for the remediation contractor to use the limited budget for doing a better job rather than hiring an IEP to tell you what you aleady need to know on simple jobs.

Rosen

RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,

You said:

But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new.

The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation.

You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully.

Mark Doughty

Need Mail bonding?Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.

We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

[Guest guest]

,

I am more confused now than before. If you

don’t use other IEP’s than how is it you never (as you stated) see

protocols with fine cleaning in them? This could only be possible if you were

the IEP who never adds in the fine cleaning in the protocol (because as you

state you never use IEP’s).

I didn’t think you were saying that.

So where are the protocols and who wrote them and to whom were they addressing

(which remediation company)? I am referring to the ones you have observed that

never addressed fine cleaning. Please help me understand more clearly.

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007

2:32 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Bob/Ma.

We don't use other IEPs. We do our own assessment along with the

remediation and don't take jobs where we would leave the place dirty.

My point was that there is an inherent conflict with using an

IEP. They need more work and are often willing overlook cleaning as part

of their protocol. If they specify a low cost solution there is more money in

the pot for them.

It is typically better for the remediation contractor to use the

limited budget for doing a better job rather than hiring an IEP to tell you

what you aleady need to know on simple jobs.

Rosen

RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,

You said:

But most mold

remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall,

cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new.

The home owner can

verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with

picturesd during the remediation.

You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning:

which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP.

The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully.

Mark Doughty

Need Mail bonding?

Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.

We won't tell. Get more on shows

you hate to love

(and love to hate): Yahoo!

TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

[Guest guest]

,

I am more confused now than before. If you

don’t use other IEP’s than how is it you never (as you stated) see

protocols with fine cleaning in them? This could only be possible if you were

the IEP who never adds in the fine cleaning in the protocol (because as you

state you never use IEP’s).

I didn’t think you were saying that.

So where are the protocols and who wrote them and to whom were they addressing

(which remediation company)? I am referring to the ones you have observed that

never addressed fine cleaning. Please help me understand more clearly.

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007

2:32 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Bob/Ma.

We don't use other IEPs. We do our own assessment along with the

remediation and don't take jobs where we would leave the place dirty.

My point was that there is an inherent conflict with using an

IEP. They need more work and are often willing overlook cleaning as part

of their protocol. If they specify a low cost solution there is more money in

the pot for them.

It is typically better for the remediation contractor to use the

limited budget for doing a better job rather than hiring an IEP to tell you

what you aleady need to know on simple jobs.

Rosen

RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,

You said:

But most mold

remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall,

cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new.

The home owner can

verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with

picturesd during the remediation.

You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning:

which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP.

The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully.

Mark Doughty

Need Mail bonding?

Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.

We won't tell. Get more on shows

you hate to love

(and love to hate): Yahoo!

TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

[Guest guest]

,

I am more confused now than before. If you

don’t use other IEP’s than how is it you never (as you stated) see

protocols with fine cleaning in them? This could only be possible if you were

the IEP who never adds in the fine cleaning in the protocol (because as you

state you never use IEP’s).

I didn’t think you were saying that.

So where are the protocols and who wrote them and to whom were they addressing

(which remediation company)? I am referring to the ones you have observed that

never addressed fine cleaning. Please help me understand more clearly.

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007

2:32 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Bob/Ma.

We don't use other IEPs. We do our own assessment along with the

remediation and don't take jobs where we would leave the place dirty.

My point was that there is an inherent conflict with using an

IEP. They need more work and are often willing overlook cleaning as part

of their protocol. If they specify a low cost solution there is more money in

the pot for them.

It is typically better for the remediation contractor to use the

limited budget for doing a better job rather than hiring an IEP to tell you

what you aleady need to know on simple jobs.

Rosen

RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,

You said:

But most mold

remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall,

cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new.

The home owner can

verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with

picturesd during the remediation.

You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning:

which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP.

The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully.

Mark Doughty

Need Mail bonding?

Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.

We won't tell. Get more on shows

you hate to love

(and love to hate): Yahoo!

TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

[Guest guest]

-

Holy cow. Are you kidding???

Maybe it is that a qualified IAQ/IEQ consultant (insert coin tag IEP

here) would FAIL your work, based on the fact that you probably show

up (based upon your posts) with a bucket of bleach water (or Tilex

or whatever), a box fan, and some old rags.

Cripes. Let me guess - you're probably a big proponent of Kilz too?

Here's a quick question for you : " Does the " mold insurance " you

carry cover you as a consultant or a remediator? Which one did you

choose on your application Dr. ?

The fact that you hold a cert from American IAQ Council completely

makes me ill...

Also, please stop promoting your self-published dime store books.

Thanks.

-Stacey Champion

>

> Bob/Ma.

>

> We don't use other IEPs. We do our own assessment along with the

remediation and don't take jobs where we would leave the place

dirty.

>

> My point was that there is an inherent conflict with using an

IEP. They need more work and are often willing overlook cleaning as

part of their protocol. If they specify a low cost solution there is

more money in the pot for them.

>

> It is typically better for the remediation contractor to use the

limited budget for doing a better job rather than hiring an IEP to

tell you what you aleady need to know on simple jobs.

>

> Rosen

>

>

> RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

> ,

>

> You said:

>

> But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove

water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new.

> The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you

can document the work with picturesd during the remediation.

>

> You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning:

which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an

IEP. The stuff you can see isn't the problem, hopefully.

> Mark Doughty

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Need Mail bonding?

> Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.

>

>

>

>

>

_____________________________________________________________________

_______________

> 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time

> with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.

> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news

>

[Guest guest]

-

Holy cow. Are you kidding???

Maybe it is that a qualified IAQ/IEQ consultant (insert coin tag IEP

here) would FAIL your work, based on the fact that you probably show

up (based upon your posts) with a bucket of bleach water (or Tilex

or whatever), a box fan, and some old rags.

Cripes. Let me guess - you're probably a big proponent of Kilz too?

Here's a quick question for you : " Does the " mold insurance " you

carry cover you as a consultant or a remediator? Which one did you

choose on your application Dr. ?

The fact that you hold a cert from American IAQ Council completely

makes me ill...

Also, please stop promoting your self-published dime store books.

Thanks.

-Stacey Champion

>

> Bob/Ma.

>

> We don't use other IEPs. We do our own assessment along with the

remediation and don't take jobs where we would leave the place

dirty.

>

> My point was that there is an inherent conflict with using an

IEP. They need more work and are often willing overlook cleaning as

part of their protocol. If they specify a low cost solution there is

more money in the pot for them.

>

> It is typically better for the remediation contractor to use the

limited budget for doing a better job rather than hiring an IEP to

tell you what you aleady need to know on simple jobs.

>

> Rosen

>

>

> RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

> ,

>

> You said:

>

> But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove

water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new.

> The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you

can document the work with picturesd during the remediation.

>

> You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning:

which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an

IEP. The stuff you can see isn't the problem, hopefully.

> Mark Doughty

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Need Mail bonding?

> Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.

>

>

>

>

>

_____________________________________________________________________

_______________

> 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time

> with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.

> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news

>

[Guest guest]

-

Holy cow. Are you kidding???

Maybe it is that a qualified IAQ/IEQ consultant (insert coin tag IEP

here) would FAIL your work, based on the fact that you probably show

up (based upon your posts) with a bucket of bleach water (or Tilex

or whatever), a box fan, and some old rags.

Cripes. Let me guess - you're probably a big proponent of Kilz too?

Here's a quick question for you : " Does the " mold insurance " you

carry cover you as a consultant or a remediator? Which one did you

choose on your application Dr. ?

The fact that you hold a cert from American IAQ Council completely

makes me ill...

Also, please stop promoting your self-published dime store books.

Thanks.

-Stacey Champion

>

> Bob/Ma.

>

> We don't use other IEPs. We do our own assessment along with the

remediation and don't take jobs where we would leave the place

dirty.

>

> My point was that there is an inherent conflict with using an

IEP. They need more work and are often willing overlook cleaning as

part of their protocol. If they specify a low cost solution there is

more money in the pot for them.

>

> It is typically better for the remediation contractor to use the

limited budget for doing a better job rather than hiring an IEP to

tell you what you aleady need to know on simple jobs.

>

> Rosen

>

>

> RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

> ,

>

> You said:

>

> But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove

water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new.

> The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you

can document the work with picturesd during the remediation.

>

> You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning:

which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an

IEP. The stuff you can see isn't the problem, hopefully.

> Mark Doughty

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Need Mail bonding?

> Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.

>

>

>

>

>

_____________________________________________________________________

_______________

> 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time

> with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.

> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news

>

[Guest guest]

I do mold remediation work and many times get a protocol to follow that was written by an IEP. Just about 1 per week. I've never yet followed one and done hundreds of remediations. We replace the protocol with our own.

I explain to the client that you don't know what you have to do until the walls are opened or the baseboard is pulled etc. And then you may have to do more or usually much less than the protocol that was proposed.

I explain that I am licensed building contractor and the guy writing the protocol has no construction experience and has no mold insurance. And then if they have any questions I asked them to see if the guy who wrote the protocol will provide any type of certification or warranty for the work if his protocol is followed...if if he will refund the owner if a wall is torn down and no mold found. So far that has never happened.

Usually the decision is not complex. The person deciding wants:

1.) Low price.

2.) Certificate.

3.) Job done right.

4.) Minimum people to deal with and a single responsible party to guarantee the job.

No doubt if someone wrote a good protocol we would follow it. Usually the protocol we see is some kind of pages and pages boilerplate. Never any clearnace criteria. Ours are 1 page with photos of the walls or areas to be remediated and captions underneath as to what we plan to do.

In Florida a licensed contractor is 100% responsible for work done no matter how many subcontractors he uses. He provides the warranty. He is the target of the lawsuit or Licensing Board actions. People like how this is structured. Simple. We try to keep it simple.

I mentioned earlier that I do much work for attorneys in Florida. We have been running a 1/3 page ad in the Florida Bar News for a long time. Attorneys in our state appear to always recommend that their clients hire someone that takes complete responsibility for a job. They understand the contractor model and how that protects their clients and recommends that model for mold work.

I know things are different in other states such as California. But that is how they are here.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com

RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,

You said:

But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new.

The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation.

You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully.

Mark Doughty

Need Mail bonding?Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.

We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/29/2007 6:56:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, iequality writes:

you're probably a big proponent of Kilz too?

Hey now, what's wrong with that? the name says it ALL.

Right? Doesn't it? You mean, hey wait a minute, it's only for stains?

Oh, what's in a name anyhow? It smells as sweet!

mmmmm, gimme some BIN too.

Armour, M.S.Armour Applied Science, LLCGreen Building Healthy BuildingCleveland, OH

"The problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them." A.Einstein

[Guest guest]

,

I am perplexed with your

decision as a contractor to assume the professional liability of the IEP. When

you disagree with the IEP, you need to bring this fact up to them so you both

are on the same page. In my

teaching of contractors, I cannot agree or promote your approach.

Yes, I recognize you have

special training as an IEP, but you have to admit that you are unusual and “you

are not” the everyday water, sewage, mold remediation restorer. You have

elected to take on two roles and assumed two sets of liability.

Respectfully, in this

forum or subject, I would appreciate you consider looking outside the box and

quit talking about Rosen, Ph.D., and realize there are few Rosen

Ph.D.’s, IEP, contractor, out in the market place. Yes, you are special, but , really,

some of the things you promote cannot be followed by the everyday, U.S., Canadian, U.K., Aussie, European contractor

without increasing their liability.

Moffett

From:

iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007

4:49 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

I do mold remediation work and many times get a protocol to follow that

was written by an IEP. Just about 1 per week. I've never yet

followed one and done hundreds of remediations. We replace the protocol

with our own.

I explain to the client that you don't know what you have to do until

the walls are opened or the baseboard is pulled etc. And then you may

have to do more or usually much less than the protocol that was proposed.

I explain that I am licensed building contractor and the guy writing

the protocol has no construction experience and has no mold insurance.

And then if they have any questions I asked them to see if the guy who wrote

the protocol will provide any type of certification or warranty for the work if

his protocol is followed...if if he will refund the owner if a wall is torn

down and no mold found. So far that has never happened.

Usually the decision is not complex. The person deciding wants:

1.) Low price.

2.) Certificate.

3.) Job done right.

4.) Minimum people to deal with and a single responsible party to

guarantee the job.

No doubt if someone wrote a good protocol we would follow

it. Usually the protocol we see is some kind of pages and pages

boilerplate. Never any clearnace criteria. Ours are 1 page with photos of the

walls or areas to be remediated and captions underneath as to what we plan to

do.

In Florida

a licensed contractor is 100% responsible for work done no matter how many

subcontractors he uses. He provides the warranty. He is the target

of the lawsuit or Licensing Board actions. People like how this is

structured. Simple. We try to keep it simple.

I mentioned earlier that I do much work for attorneys in Florida. We have

been running a 1/3 page ad in the Florida Bar News for a long time.

Attorneys in our state appear to always recommend that their clients hire

someone that takes complete responsibility for a job. They understand the

contractor model and how that protects their clients and recommends that model

for mold work.

I know things are different in other states such as California. But that is how they are here.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com

RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,

You said:

But most mold

remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall,

cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new.

The home owner can

verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with

picturesd during the remediation.

You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning:

which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP.

The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully.

Mark Doughty

Need Mail bonding?

Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.

We won't tell. Get

more on shows you hate to love

(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo!

Music Unlimited.

[Guest guest]

,

I’m having a little trouble getting

my head around a couple of items in this post:

 ( Rosen -

Certified Mold Free.) and

 It is always

around us in the air we breath, in the food we eat and

in the walls and attics of the homes we live in.

So which is it, certified mold free or all

around us?  Doesn’t seem to me like

it can be both.

Mark Doughty

 

[Guest guest]

As the proverbial fox, I want to send you some tooth picks to get that chicken out of you teeth while you lounge in the hen house.

What a rare and exceeding wonderful contractor you are; and if any of you don't believe it.... just ask him. We should all be so blessed with your intellect, talent and personal insight.

Danny

RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,

You said:

But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new.

The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation.

You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully.

Mark Doughty

Need Mail bonding?Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.

We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.

[Guest guest]

All:

The truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. I have seen many IEP protocols that are boiler plate, have little to do with the building at hand, and every section ends with something like "....and if you find anything different after you start, use your best professional judgment."

On the other hand I have seen many that instruct and quantify the work to be done, often wall by wall. They also have sections that end with "...and if you find anything different after you start, use your best professional judgment." Often times much is left to judgment of the remediator, because he is the one on the job every day.

As for a guarantee for protocols, good luck. I saw one IEP out of TN that had an indemnification & hold harmless agreement in his contract with the insuror. When told that they could not sign that, he took it out and then turned in a protocol to tear out the entire house, effectively creating an unnecessary total loss.

S520, flawed as you might think that it is, is the standard at the moment. Dr. Rosen is correct in stating that it is often up to the remediator to determine if an IEP is necessary. Remember, though, that just because you SAY an IEP is not necessary means that it is true. A reasonable standard of care must be followed. DR. Rosen, stop testing your own work. It is a direct conflict of interest according to S520 and all common sense. Once that fact becomes known in a conflict all your credibility is out the window. If post remediation testing is indicated it should be done by a third party, paid for by the property owner.

The general tone of this thread is way wrong. I have rarely seen such a continued lack of respect on both sides of an issue. Dr. Rosen, not all IEP's are idiots. I predict about the same ratio can be found in contractors. As for you IEP's, most contractors are not idiots, just hard working guys trying to do the right thing.

There is too much bluster & bullying on this board lately. I have been a part of it since it started, way back when all we talked about was candle soot. Please keep your comments professional and courteous. If you disagree, be nice about it. This particular thread has sunk to a new low of name calling & disrespect, & I for one will delete the posts on this thread until it is dead and gone. I encourage the moderator to hurry its demise.

Cole, CR

Sentry Construction Company, Inc.

[Guest guest]

I wish this guy (PhD wizard) would stop talking out of both sides of his mouth and stop spreading his self-serving propaganda.gary rosen wrote: Bob/Ma. We don't use

other IEPs. We do our own assessment along with the remediation and don't take jobs where we would leave the place dirty. My point was that there is an inherent conflict with using an IEP. They need more work and are often willing overlook cleaning as part of their protocol. If they specify a low cost solution there is more money in the pot for them. It is typically better for the remediation contractor to use the limited budget for doing a better job rather than hiring an IEP to tell you what you aleady need to know on simple jobs. Rosen RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? , You said: But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new.

The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation. You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully. Mark Doughty Need Mail bonding?Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

[Guest guest]

I don't disagree with anything you said .... except about testing my own work. Of course there are fine IEPs that write fine protocols. But they are expensive and almost never found on every day jobs. We all know this because in general, insurance will not pay for fine IEPs to write custom protocols and then update the protocol as the walls are opened for every day jobs. So what is a remediator to do?

About testing ...

As a remediator I do my own post-remdiation testing for quality control purposes. If there is an IEP and they do their own additional testing fine. Then there are two sets of test results. If there is no IEP and no one else to take tests, I take tests to know if more cleaning is needed and to protect myself from liability. If you don't do post remediation testing and lets say there is another water problem and mold growth and the house or office is contaminated 6 months later ... how can you show that you did not actually leave the house contaminated.

I recommend that all mold remediators do their own baseline (pre-remediation) testing also so they can determine what background level of mold is present as this affects how the job will be quoted. How much cleaning must be done? If Stachy is present you may need more cleaning. If the house is "dirty" you may not be able to clear the house unless the carpet is replaced and then you need to put that in your proposal.

At least in our state the insurance providers do not want to pay for testing. They rarely pay. As remediators we just absorb this cost as part of doing business. We do many $2K mold jobs (1-2 sheets of drywall) expecially for real estate transactions. These include remediation and drywall and baseboard build back and then white primer paint. If we have to do 4 or 6 samples which can cost us $100-$150 approximately that is a cost of doing business. No one is going to pay for a decent IEP on any job this size or even somewhat bigger.

When we provide a certificate for our work we state that we did not leave the work area or surrounding area contaminated with mold as a result of the remediation. We can't do that without testing.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Free.org

Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

All:

The truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. I have seen many IEP protocols that are boiler plate, have little to do with the building at hand, and every section ends with something like "....and if you find anything different after you start, use your best professional judgment."

On the other hand I have seen many that instruct and quantify the work to be done, often wall by wall. They also have sections that end with "...and if you find anything different after you start, use your best professional judgment." Often times much is left to judgment of the remediator, because he is the one on the job every day.

As for a guarantee for protocols, good luck. I saw one IEP out of TN that had an indemnification & hold harmless agreement in his contract with the insuror. When told that they could not sign that, he took it out and then turned in a protocol to tear out the entire house, effectively creating an unnecessary total loss.

S520, flawed as you might think that it is, is the standard at the moment. Dr. Rosen is correct in stating that it is often up to the remediator to determine if an IEP is necessary. Remember, though, that just because you SAY an IEP is not necessary means that it is true. A reasonable standard of care must be followed. DR. Rosen, stop testing your own work. It is a direct conflict of interest according to S520 and all common sense. Once that fact becomes known in a conflict all your credibility is out the window. If post remediation testing is indicated it should be done by a third party, paid for by the property owner.

The general tone of this thread is way wrong. I have rarely seen such a continued lack of respect on both sides of an issue. Dr. Rosen, not all IEP's are idiots. I predict about the same ratio can be found in contractors. As for you IEP's, most contractors are not idiots, just hard working guys trying to do the right thing.

There is too much bluster & bullying on this board lately. I have been a part of it since it started, way back when all we talked about was candle soot. Please keep your comments professional and courteous. If you disagree, be nice about it. This particular thread has sunk to a new low of name calling & disrespect, & I for one will delete the posts on this thread until it is dead and gone. I encourage the moderator to hurry its demise.

Cole, CR

Sentry Construction Company, Inc.

Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.

[Guest guest]

Pat:

While your point regarding Rosen has merit, i.e., “I am perplexed with your decision as a contractor to assume the professional liability of the IEP,” there is another aspect of this that is TOTALLY lost on the IEPs that seem to be incredulous with and his methods. First let me tackle this perception of “professional liability” of the IEP. Most IEPs are not licensed by the state that they practice in, they are not bonded, they do not have liabilities that a 10 and 15-yr statute of limitations imbues upon contractors, and they do not warranty their work. These are REALLY big issues that factor into the long-term liability of any remediation project. This “professional liability of the IEP” is nothing like the professional liabilities you, or I, or others, as PEs have, and it is unlike the liabilities that licensed contractors have. In my opinion, professional liability of the IEP is weak.

As you and I know, many IEPs lack any substantial knowledge or experience with construction, they have never been a contractor or built something of significance, and have no clue that the mold spec that they need to write needs to be a construction-based (not IH-based) spec. A remediation contractor who follows a nonconstruction-based spec that has errors and omissions from a contracting perspective, opens themselves up to significant long-term liabilities. Based on most of the mold specs that I see written by IEPs, if I were a practicing remediation contractor I would be doing the same thing that is doing, i.e., follow my own spec. Your recommendation that disagreements with an IEP need to be aired, is right on. This needs to be their first step in any dispute, i.e., on site resolution. However, how far should a contractor go, and to what effort, to educate the IEP in the merits of construction? Moreover, I all too often see the IEP acting as the Top Dog in a remediation project, and their protocols and position often stinks from a lack of experience - they are a mangy dog in my opinion and they often get argumentative. In this instance, I feel that the contractor is well-justified going to the client/owner and stating....If you want me to warranty this work and put my insurance on the line, I am going to do it my way. This is ’s position AND it may represent the lesser of the liabilities to him and his projects. This concept of the contractor following their own design and spec is nothing new! For those non-construction folks reading this post it is called: Design-Build, and this method of construction has its merits; as well as pitfalls. If done correctly it often saves owners a lot of $$$. All this said, I am not here to say what does is righteous or perfect, but I can support his position, i.e., when the IEPs protocol stinks, use his own. The overly negative comments from IEPs blasting for his opinions and methods are, in my opinion, self-righteous whines from un-licensed, un-bonded, inexperienced mold practitioners who do not, or are unwilling to, warranty their work for 10+ years.

Yes...there are very few Rosen Ph.D.s out there practicing and performing mold remediation. Like you said, most remediation contractors cannot, and should not, do what does, because they lack experience. Moreover, many IEPs lack experience. This said, where is this all going to lead us? I see turmoil, frustration, finger-pointing, accusations, slanderous comments, and all the other negativity that is well-represented here on IEQuality. I wonder how the public views us? We surely are not doing the Public any favors by not getting along and resolving our problems and differences.

For what it is worth

,

I am perplexed with your decision as a contractor to assume the professional liability of the IEP. When you disagree with the IEP, you need to bring this fact up to them so you both are on the same page. In my teaching of contractors, I cannot agree or promote your approach.

Yes, I recognize you have special training as an IEP, but you have to admit that you are unusual and “you are not” the everyday water, sewage, mold remediation restorer. You have elected to take on two roles and assumed two sets of liability.

Respectfully, in this forum or subject, I would appreciate you consider looking outside the box and quit talking about Rosen, Ph.D., and realize there are few Rosen Ph.D.’s, IEP, contractor, out in the market place. Yes, you are special, but , really, some of the things you promote cannot be followed by the everyday, U.S., Canadian, U.K., Aussie, European contractor without increasing their liability.

Moffett

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 4:49 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

I do mold remediation work and many times get a protocol to follow that was written by an IEP. Just about 1 per week. I've never yet followed one and done hundreds of remediations. We replace the protocol with our own.

I explain to the client that you don't know what you have to do until the walls are opened or the baseboard is pulled etc. And then you may have to do more or usually much less than the protocol that was proposed.

I explain that I am licensed building contractor and the guy writing the protocol has no construction experience and has no mold insurance. And then if they have any questions I asked them to see if the guy who wrote the protocol will provide any type of certification or warranty for the work if his protocol is followed...if if he will refund the owner if a wall is torn down and no mold found. So far that has never happened.

Usually the decision is not complex. The person deciding wants:

1.) Low price.

2.) Certificate.

3.) Job done right.

4.) Minimum people to deal with and a single responsible party to guarantee the job.

No doubt if someone wrote a good protocol we would follow it. Usually the protocol we see is some kind of pages and pages boilerplate. Never any clearnace criteria. Ours are 1 page with photos of the walls or areas to be remediated and captions underneath as to what we plan to do.

In Florida a licensed contractor is 100% responsible for work done no matter how many subcontractors he uses. He provides the warranty. He is the target of the lawsuit or Licensing Board actions. People like how this is structured. Simple. We try to keep it simple.

I mentioned earlier that I do much work for attorneys in Florida. We have been running a 1/3 page ad in the Florida Bar News for a long time. Attorneys in our state appear to always recommend that their clients hire someone that takes complete responsibility for a job. They understand the contractor model and how that protects their clients and recommends that model for mold work.

I know things are different in other states such as California. But that is how they are here.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com <http://www.Mold-Books.com>

RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,

You said:

But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new.

The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation.

You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully.

Mark Doughty

Need Mail bonding?

Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A <http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0NTEwOARfcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx?link=ask & amp;sid=396546091> for great tips from Yahoo! Answers <http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0NTEwOARfcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx?link=ask & amp;sid=396546091> users.

We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http:/tv.yahoo.com/collections/265%0d%0a>

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[Guest guest]

& Danny,

Just a suggestion. If everyone stops responding to Dr. , he won't

have anyone to toot his horn to about how omnipotent he is. Then he'll

have to start his own group. Perhaps " The World According to the

Great Dr. " . I wonder how many members he'll get?

Cheers,

Chuck Reaney, CIAQetc.

I wish this guy (PhD wizard) would stop talking out of both sides of

his mouth and stop spreading his self-serving propaganda.

[Guest guest]

,

There is no way for you to toot your horn

because without an unbiased IEP (which you don’t use) therefore there is

no way to prove you don’t leave the project dirty. Besides, dirty and micro

contamination conditions can and do vary. One you can see, there other may be

undetectable with the naked eye. Therefore how can you tell us that you never

leave a job dirty? I believe you may mean no longer contaminated.

Bob/Ma.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of ryan sherry

Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007

6:56 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

I wish

this guy (PhD wizard) would stop talking out of both sides of his mouth and

stop spreading his self-serving propaganda.

gary rosen <garyrosen72652>

wrote:

Bob/Ma.

We don't use other IEPs. We do our own assessment along with the

remediation and don't take jobs where we would leave the place dirty.

My point was that there is an inherent conflict with using an

IEP. They need more work and are often willing overlook cleaning as part

of their protocol. If they specify a low cost solution there is more money in

the pot for them.

It is typically better for the remediation contractor to use the

limited budget for doing a better job rather than hiring an IEP to tell you

what you aleady need to know on simple jobs.

Rosen

RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,

You said:

But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove

water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new.

The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you

can document the work with picturesd during the remediation.

You missed the most important part, the

part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why

someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem,

hopefully.

Mark Doughty

Need Mail bonding?

Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.

We won't tell. Get more on shows

you hate to love

(and love to hate): Yahoo!

TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

[Guest guest]

,

A simple answer is: My company as a California

licensed general contractor, does not provide conflicting remediation process

that biases our work. Our environmental side and the construction-restoration

side are two separate companies. In fact, I decided years ago to provide adjuster

and attorney litigation support, expert witness and arbitration related to

construction defect claims; meaning, I no longer provide remediation and

restoration services.

Today, our services are designed to provide California

licensed construction and California

registered environmental support to adjusters and contractors who are actively

involved in emergency cleanup and restoration. Especially where there are

extenuating situations where there is a need to address: employee health and

occupant exposure; work related safety issues; tailgate meetings; on-site fit

testing and training; project scope writing; testing and monitoring for both chemical

industrial hygiene and environmental microbial indices; project oversight,

clearance and closure.

Thanks for the inquiry.

Moffett

From:

iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Geyer

Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007

9:33 AM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Pat:

While your point regarding Rosen has merit, i.e., “I am perplexed

with your decision as a contractor to assume the professional liability of the

IEP,” there is another aspect of this that is TOTALLY lost on the IEPs that

seem to be incredulous with

and his methods. First let me tackle this perception of

“professional liability” of the IEP. Most IEPs are not

licensed by the state that they practice in, they are not bonded, they do not

have liabilities that a 10 and 15-yr statute of limitations imbues upon

contractors, and they do not warranty their work. These are REALLY big

issues that factor into the long-term liability of any remediation project.

This “professional liability of the IEP” is nothing like the

professional liabilities you, or I, or others, as PEs have, and it is unlike

the liabilities that licensed contractors have. In my opinion,

professional liability of the IEP is weak.

As you and I know, many IEPs lack any substantial knowledge or experience with

construction, they have never been a contractor or built something of

significance, and have no clue that the mold spec that they need to write needs

to be a construction-based (not IH-based) spec. A remediation

contractor who follows a nonconstruction-based spec that has errors and

omissions from a contracting perspective, opens themselves up to significant

long-term liabilities. Based on most of the mold specs that I see written

by IEPs, if I were a practicing remediation contractor I would be doing the

same thing that

is doing, i.e., follow my own spec. Your recommendation that

disagreements with an IEP need to be aired, is right on. This needs to be

their first step in any dispute, i.e., on site resolution. However, how

far should a contractor go, and to what effort, to educate the IEP in the

merits of construction? Moreover, I all too often see the IEP acting as

the Top Dog in a remediation project, and their protocols and position often

stinks from a lack of experience - they are a mangy dog in my opinion and they

often get argumentative. In this instance, I feel that the contractor is

well-justified going to the client/owner and stating....If you want me to

warranty this work and put my insurance on the line, I am going to do it my

way. This is ’s

position AND it may represent the lesser of the liabilities to him and his

projects. This concept of the contractor following their own design and

spec is nothing new! For those non-construction folks reading this post

it is called: Design-Build, and this method of construction has its merits; as

well as pitfalls. If done correctly it often saves owners a lot of $$$.

All this said, I am not here to say what does is righteous or perfect, but I can

support his position, i.e., when the IEPs protocol stinks, use his own.

The overly negative comments from IEPs blasting for his opinions and methods are, in my

opinion, self-righteous whines from un-licensed, un-bonded, inexperienced mold

practitioners who do not, or are unwilling to, warranty their work for 10+

years.

Yes...there are very few Rosen Ph.D.s out there practicing and performing

mold remediation. Like you said, most remediation contractors cannot, and

should not, do what

does, because they lack experience. Moreover, many IEPs lack experience.

This said, where is this all going to lead us? I see turmoil,

frustration, finger-pointing, accusations, slanderous comments, and all the

other negativity that is well-represented here on IEQuality. I wonder how

the public views us? We surely are not doing the Public any favors by not

getting along and resolving our problems and differences.

For what it is worth

On 1/30/07 8:24 AM, " Moffett " <pmoffettemeiaq>

wrote:

,

I am perplexed with your decision as a contractor to assume the professional

liability of the IEP. When you disagree with the IEP, you need to bring this

fact up to them so you both are on the same page. In my teaching of

contractors, I cannot agree or promote your approach.

Yes, I recognize you have special training as an IEP, but you have to admit

that you are unusual and “you are not” the everyday water, sewage,

mold remediation restorer. You have elected to take on two roles and assumed

two sets of liability.

Respectfully, in this forum or subject, I would appreciate you consider looking

outside the box and quit talking about Rosen, Ph.D., and realize there are

few Rosen Ph.D.’s, IEP, contractor, out in the market place.

Yes, you are special, but , really, some of the things you promote

cannot be followed by the everyday, U.S.,

Canadian, U.K.,

Aussie, European contractor without increasing their liability.

Moffett

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]

On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007

4:49 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

I do mold remediation

work and many times get a protocol to follow that was written by an IEP.

Just about 1 per week. I've never yet followed one and done

hundreds of remediations. We replace the protocol with our own.

I explain to the

client that you don't know what you have to do until the walls are opened or

the baseboard is pulled etc. And then you may have to do more or usually

much less than the protocol that was proposed.

I explain that I am

licensed building contractor and the guy writing the protocol has no

construction experience and has no mold insurance. And then if they have any

questions I asked them to see if the guy who wrote the protocol will provide

any type of certification or warranty for the work if his protocol is followed...if

if he will refund the owner if a wall is torn down and no mold found. So

far that has never happened.

Usually the decision

is not complex. The person deciding wants:

1.) Low price.

2.)

Certificate.

3.) Job done

right.

4.) Minimum

people to deal with and a single responsible party to guarantee the job.

No doubt if someone

wrote a good protocol we would follow it. Usually the protocol we see is some

kind of pages and pages boilerplate. Never any clearnace criteria. Ours are 1

page with photos of the walls or areas to be remediated and captions underneath

as to what we plan to do.

In Florida a licensed contractor is 100%

responsible for work done no matter how many subcontractors he uses. He

provides the warranty. He is the target of the lawsuit or Licensing Board

actions. People like how this is structured. Simple. We try to keep it

simple.

I mentioned earlier

that I do much work for attorneys in Florida.

We have been running a 1/3 page ad in the Florida Bar News for a long time.

Attorneys in our state appear to always recommend that their clients hire

someone that takes complete responsibility for a job. They understand the

contractor model and how that protects their clients and recommends that model

for mold work.

I know things are

different in other states such as California.

But that is how they are here.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com

<http://www.Mold-Books.com>

RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,

You said:

But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You

remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new.

The home owner can verify that the work is done properly.

Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation.

You missed the most

important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for

contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t

the problem, hopefully.

Mark Doughty

Need Mail bonding?

Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A <http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0NTEwOARfcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx?link=ask & amp;sid=396546091>

for great tips from Yahoo! Answers <http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0NTEwOARfcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx?link=ask & amp;sid=396546091>

users.

We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http:/tv.yahoo.com/collections/265%0d%0a>

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[Guest guest]

" - We do many $2K mold jobs (1-2 sheets of drywall) expecially for

real estate transactions. "

-

Bluntly, you are ripping people off. Shame on you. I only have one

word to say to you - KARMA

S.C.

>

>

>

> I don't disagree with anything you said .... except about testing

my own work. Of course there are fine IEPs that write fine

protocols. But they are expensive and almost never found on every

day jobs. We all know this because in general, insurance will not

pay for fine IEPs to write custom protocols and then update the

protocol as the walls are opened for every day jobs. So what is a

remediator to do?

>

> About testing ...

>

> As a remediator I do my own post-remdiation testing for quality

control purposes. If there is an IEP and they do their own

additional testing fine. Then there are two sets of test results. If

there is no IEP and no one else to take tests, I take tests to know

if more cleaning is needed and to protect myself from liability. If

you don't do post remediation testing and lets say there is another

water problem and mold growth and the house or office is contaminated

6 months later ... how can you show that you did not actually leave

the house contaminated.

>

> I recommend that all mold remediators do their own baseline (pre-

remediation) testing also so they can determine what background level

of mold is present as this affects how the job will be quoted. How

much cleaning must be done? If Stachy is present you may need more

cleaning. If the house is " dirty " you may not be able to clear the

house unless the carpet is replaced and then you need to put that in

your proposal.

>

> At least in our state the insurance providers do not want to pay

for testing. They rarely pay. As remediators we just absorb this

cost as part of doing business. We do many $2K mold jobs (1-2 sheets

of drywall) expecially for real estate transactions. These include

remediation and drywall and baseboard build back and then white

primer paint. If we have to do 4 or 6 samples which can cost us $100-

$150 approximately that is a cost of doing business. No one is going

to pay for a decent IEP on any job this size or even somewhat

bigger.

>

> When we provide a certificate for our work we state that we did not

leave the work area or surrounding area contaminated with mold as a

result of the remediation. We can't do that without testing.

>

> Rosen, Ph.D.

> www.Mold-Free.org

>

>

> Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

>

> All:

> The truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. I have seen

many IEP protocols that are boiler plate, have little to do with the

building at hand, and every section ends with something like " ....and

if you find anything different after you start, use your best

professional judgment. "

> On the other hand I have seen many that instruct and quantify

the work to be done, often wall by wall. They also have sections

that end with " ...and if you find anything different after you start,

use your best professional judgment. " Often times much is left to

judgment of the remediator, because he is the one on the job every

day.

> As for a guarantee for protocols, good luck. I saw one IEP out

of TN that had an indemnification & hold harmless agreement in his

contract with the insuror. When told that they could not sign that,

he took it out and then turned in a protocol to tear out the entire

house, effectively creating an unnecessary total loss.

> S520, flawed as you might think that it is, is the standard at

the moment. Dr. Rosen is correct in stating that it is often up to

the remediator to determine if an IEP is necessary. Remember,

though, that just because you SAY an IEP is not necessary means that

it is true. A reasonable standard of care must be followed. DR.

Rosen, stop testing your own work. It is a direct conflict of

interest according to S520 and all common sense. Once that fact

becomes known in a conflict all your credibility is out the window.

If post remediation testing is indicated it should be done by a third

party, paid for by the property owner.

> The general tone of this thread is way wrong. I have rarely

seen such a continued lack of respect on both sides of an issue. Dr.

Rosen, not all IEP's are idiots. I predict about the same ratio can

be found in contractors. As for you IEP's, most contractors are not

idiots, just hard working guys trying to do the right thing.

> There is too much bluster & bullying on this board lately. I

have been a part of it since it started, way back when all we talked

about was candle soot. Please keep your comments professional and

courteous. If you disagree, be nice about it. This particular thread

has sunk to a new low of name calling & disrespect, & I for one will

delete the posts on this thread until it is dead and gone. I

encourage the moderator to hurry its demise.

>

> Cole, CR

> Sentry Construction Company, Inc.

>

>

>

>

>

______________________________________________________________________

______________

> No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go

> with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.

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[Guest guest]

I thought I’d make a comment on the

term “bonded”, as in:

‘they are not bonded,’

This term aggravates me to no end when contractors state

(or place on their business cards) licensed and bonded.

1. One, I

know of none that are “bonded” for all jobs.

2. Two,

most do not provide a bond with a project.

3. Most

don’t even know what a bond really is.

I figure if I’m whining I should at least educate on

bonds.

Simply speaking, a bond is a contractual surety on

delivery – of goods, services, or money. Provided by a 3rd

party.

The typical bonds are:

l

Bid

l

Performance

l

Payment

Bid - This is a bond for not pulling out of the bid

process once submitted. Very common.

Performance – If the contractor doesn’t

perform the work, then the bond holder could require that the bonding company

get the work performed at the bonding co.’s own cost.

Payment – If the work is not completed, then the

bonding co. foots the cost of the uncompleted work up to the bond amt.

On government and larger private projects, one usually requires

a bid bond and then either a performance or a payment bond. I prefer a

performance bond because if the contractor low-balled it, the owner is stuck pickling

up the difference.

If the contractor has a bond claim – they will have

very high costs getting another claim through. The bonding company that

paid out will be relentless in getting to the contracting companies

officers/owners for the losses they incurred.

Those contractors that are good and have good assets get

lower bond rates and can achieve an economically competitive edge. Bond

rates could be say 1-3% of the job cost to 20% on risky ventures.

But most contractors do NOT Bond a project and are being

deceitful by saying they are “bonded”.

Enough said.

Tony

.......................................................................

" Tony " Havics,

CHMM, CIH, PE

pH2, LLC

5250 E US

36, Suite 830

Avon, IN

46123

off

fax

cell

90% of Risk Management is knowing where to

place the decimal point...any consultant can give you the other 10%(SM)

This message is from pH2. This message and

any attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information, and

are intended only for the individual or entity identified above as the

addressee. If you are not the addressee, or if this message has been addressed

to you in error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this

message and any attachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and

attachments (including all copies) and notify the sender by return e-mail or by

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person other than the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive

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sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied or

distributed without this statement.

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of

Geyer

Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007

12:33 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

Pat:

While your point regarding Rosen has merit, i.e., “I am perplexed

with your decision as a contractor to assume the professional liability of the

IEP,” there is another aspect of this that is TOTALLY lost on the IEPs

that seem to be incredulous with

and his methods. First let me tackle this perception of

“professional liability” of the IEP. Most IEPs are not

licensed by the state that they practice in, they are not bonded, they do not

have liabilities that a 10 and 15-yr statute of limitations imbues upon

contractors, and they do not warranty their work. These are REALLY big

issues that factor into the long-term liability of any remediation project.

This “professional liability of the IEP” is nothing like the

professional liabilities you, or I, or others, as PEs have, and it is unlike

the liabilities that licensed contractors have. In my opinion,

professional liability of the IEP is weak.

As you and I know, many IEPs lack any substantial knowledge or experience with

construction, they have never been a contractor or built something of

significance, and have no clue that the mold spec that they need to write needs

to be a construction-based (not IH-based) spec. A remediation contractor

who follows a nonconstruction-based spec that has errors and omissions from a

contracting perspective, opens themselves up to significant long-term

liabilities. Based on most of the mold specs that I see written by IEPs,

if I were a practicing remediation contractor I would be doing the same thing

that is

doing, i.e., follow my own spec. Your recommendation that disagreements

with an IEP need to be aired, is right on. This needs to be their first

step in any dispute, i.e., on site resolution. However, how far should a

contractor go, and to what effort, to educate the IEP in the merits of

construction? Moreover, I all too often see the IEP acting as the Top Dog

in a remediation project, and their protocols and position often stinks from a

lack of experience - they are a mangy dog in my opinion and they often get

argumentative. In this instance, I feel that the contractor is

well-justified going to the client/owner and stating....If you want me to

warranty this work and put my insurance on the line, I am going to do it my

way. This is ’s

position AND it may represent the lesser of the liabilities to him and his

projects. This concept of the contractor following their own design and

spec is nothing new! For those non-construction folks reading this post

it is called: Design-Build, and this method of construction has its merits; as

well as pitfalls. If done correctly it often saves owners a lot of $$$.

All this said, I am not here to say what does is righteous or perfect, but I can

support his position, i.e., when the IEPs protocol stinks, use his own.

The overly negative comments from IEPs blasting for his opinions and methods are, in my

opinion, self-righteous whines from un-licensed, un-bonded, inexperienced mold

practitioners who do not, or are unwilling to, warranty their work for 10+

years.

Yes...there are very few Rosen Ph.D.s out there practicing and performing

mold remediation. Like you said, most remediation contractors cannot, and

should not, do what

does, because they lack experience. Moreover, many IEPs lack experience.

This said, where is this all going to lead us? I see turmoil,

frustration, finger-pointing, accusations, slanderous comments, and all the

other negativity that is well-represented here on IEQuality. I wonder how

the public views us? We surely are not doing the Public any favors by not

getting along and resolving our problems and differences.

For what it is worth

On 1/30/07 8:24 AM, " Moffett "

wrote:

,

I am perplexed with your decision as a contractor to assume the professional

liability of the IEP. When you disagree with the IEP, you need to bring this

fact up to them so you both are on the same page. In my teaching of

contractors, I cannot agree or promote your approach.

Yes, I recognize you have special training as an IEP, but you have to admit

that you are unusual and “you are not” the everyday water, sewage,

mold remediation restorer. You have elected to take on two roles and assumed

two sets of liability.

Respectfully, in this forum or subject, I would appreciate you consider looking

outside the box and quit talking about Rosen, Ph.D., and realize there are

few Rosen Ph.D.’s, IEP, contractor, out in the market place.

Yes, you are special, but , really, some of the things you promote

cannot be followed by the everyday, U.S.,

Canadian, U.K.,

Aussie, European contractor without increasing their liability.

Moffett

From: iequality

[mailto:iequality ]

On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007

4:49 PM

To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do

you follow a IEP's Protocol?

I do mold remediation

work and many times get a protocol to follow that was written by an IEP.

Just about 1 per week. I've never yet followed one and done

hundreds of remediations. We replace the protocol with our own.

I explain to the

client that you don't know what you have to do until the walls are opened or

the baseboard is pulled etc. And then you may have to do more or usually

much less than the protocol that was proposed.

I explain that I am

licensed building contractor and the guy writing the protocol has no

construction experience and has no mold insurance. And then if they have any

questions I asked them to see if the guy who wrote the protocol will provide

any type of certification or warranty for the work if his protocol is followed...if

if he will refund the owner if a wall is torn down and no mold found. So

far that has never happened.

Usually the decision

is not complex. The person deciding wants:

1.) Low price.

2.)

Certificate.

3.) Job done

right.

4.) Minimum

people to deal with and a single responsible party to guarantee the job.

No doubt if someone

wrote a good protocol we would follow it. Usually the protocol we see is some

kind of pages and pages boilerplate. Never any clearnace criteria. Ours are 1

page with photos of the walls or areas to be remediated and captions underneath

as to what we plan to do.

In Florida a licensed contractor is 100%

responsible for work done no matter how many subcontractors he uses. He

provides the warranty. He is the target of the lawsuit or Licensing Board

actions. People like how this is structured. Simple. We try to keep it

simple.

I mentioned earlier

that I do much work for attorneys in Florida.

We have been running a 1/3 page ad in the Florida Bar News for a long time.

Attorneys in our state appear to always recommend that their clients hire

someone that takes complete responsibility for a job. They understand the

contractor model and how that protects their clients and recommends that model

for mold work.

I know things are

different in other states such as California.

But that is how they are here.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com <http://www.Mold-Books.com>

RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,

You said:

But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You

remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new.

The home owner can verify that the work is done properly.

Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation.

You missed the most

important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for

contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t

the problem, hopefully.

Mark Doughty

Need Mail bonding?

Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A <http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0NTEwOARfcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx?link=ask & amp;sid=396546091>

for great tips from Yahoo! Answers <http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0NTEwOARfcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx?link=ask & amp;sid=396546091>

users.

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[Guest guest]

Thanks, Tony. There's just so much self-serving misinformation and

B.S. on this list anymore, I don't have the energy or time to try to refute

it all. I've taken a vacation from even trying to. On behalf of the

knowledgable and capable members of this list, I thank, and commend

you for your efforts to keep things straight.

Regards,

Chuck Reaney

I thought I'd make a comment on the term " bonded " , as in:

'they are not bonded,'

This term aggravates me to no end when contractors state (or place on

their business cards) licensed and bonded.

1. One, I know of none that are " bonded " for all jobs.

2. Two, most do not provide a bond with a project.

3. Most don't even know what a bond really is.

I figure if I'm whining I should at least educate on bonds.

Simply speaking, a bond is a contractual surety on delivery - of

goods, services, or money. Provided by a 3rd party.

The typical bonds are:

* Bid

* Performance

* Payment

Bid - This is a bond for not pulling out of the bid process once

submitted. Very common.

Performance - If the contractor doesn't perform the work, then the

bond holder could require that the bonding company get the work

performed at the bonding co.'s own cost.

Payment - If the work is not completed, then the bonding co. foots the

cost of the uncompleted work up to the bond amt.

On government and larger private projects, one usually requires a bid

bond and then either a performance or a payment bond. I prefer a

performance bond because if the contractor low-balled it, the owner is

stuck pickling up the difference.

If the contractor has a bond claim - they will have very high costs

getting another claim through. The bonding company that paid out will

be relentless in getting to the contracting companies officers/owners

for the losses they incurred.

Those contractors that are good and have good assets get lower bond

rates and can achieve an economically competitive edge. Bond rates

could be say 1-3% of the job cost to 20% on risky ventures.

But most contractors do NOT Bond a project and are being deceitful by

saying they are " bonded " .

Enough said.

Tony

.......................................................................

" Tony " Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE

pH2, LLC

5250 E US 36, Suite 830

Avon, IN 46123

off

fax

cell

90% of Risk Management is knowing where to place the decimal

point...any consultant can give you the other 10%(SM)

This message is from pH2. This message and any attachments may

contain

legally privileged or confidential information, and are intended only

for the individual or entity identified above as the addressee. If you

are not the addressee, or if this message has been addressed to you

in

error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this

message and any attachments, and we ask that you please delete this

message and attachments (including all copies) and notify the sender

by return e-mail or by phone at . Delivery of this

message

and any attachments to any person other than the intended recipient(s)

is not intended in any way to waive confidentiality or a privilege.

All personal messages express views only of the sender, which are not

to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied or distributed without

this statement.

_____

From: iequality

[mailto:iequality ] On

Behalf Of Geyer Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 12:33

PM To:

iequality Subject: Re: When do you

follow

a IEP's Protocol?

Pat:

While your point regarding Rosen has merit, i.e., " I am perplexed

with your decision as a contractor to assume the professional

liability of the IEP, " there is another aspect of this that is TOTALLY

lost on the IEPs that seem to be incredulous with and his

methods. First let me tackle this perception of " professional

liability " of the IEP. Most IEPs are not licensed by the state that

they practice in, they are not bonded, they do not have liabilities

that a 10 and 15-yr statute of limitations imbues upon contractors,

and they do not warranty their work. These are REALLY big issues

that

factor into the long-term liability of any remediation project. This

" professional liability of the IEP " is nothing like the professional

liabilities you, or I, or others, as PEs have, and it is unlike the

liabilities that licensed contractors have. In my opinion,

professional liability of the IEP is weak.

As you and I know, many IEPs lack any substantial knowledge or

experience with construction, they have never been a contractor or

built something of significance, and have no clue that the mold spec

that they need to write needs to be a construction-based (not

IH-based) spec. A remediation contractor who follows a

nonconstruction-based spec that has errors and omissions from a

contracting perspective, opens themselves up to significant long-term

liabilities. Based on most of the mold specs that I see written by

IEPs, if I were a practicing remediation contractor I would be doing

the same thing that is doing, i.e., follow my own spec. Your

recommendation that disagreements with an IEP need to be aired, is

right on. This needs to be their first step in any dispute, i.e., on

site resolution. However, how far should a contractor go, and to what

effort, to educate the IEP in the merits of construction? Moreover, I

all too often see the IEP acting as the Top Dog in a remediation

project, and their protocols and position often stinks from a lack of

experience - they are a mangy dog in my opinion and they often get

argumentative. In this instance, I feel that the contractor is

well-justified going to the client/owner and stating....If you want me

to warranty this work and put my insurance on the line, I am going to

do it my way. This is 's position AND it may represent the lesser

of the liabilities to him and his projects. This concept of the

contractor following their own design and spec is nothing new! For

those non-construction folks reading this post it is called:

Design-Build, and this method of construction has its merits; as well

as pitfalls. If done correctly it often saves owners a lot of $$$.

All this said, I am not here to say what does is righteous or

perfect, but I can support his position, i.e., when the IEPs protocol

stinks, use his own. The overly negative comments from IEPs blasting

for his opinions and methods are, in my opinion, self-righteous

whines from un-licensed, un-bonded, inexperienced mold practitioners

who do not, or are unwilling to, warranty their work for 10+ years.

Yes...there are very few Rosen Ph.D.s out there practicing and

performing mold remediation. Like you said, most remediation

contractors cannot, and should not, do what does, because they

lack experience. Moreover, many IEPs lack experience. This said,

where is this all going to lead us? I see turmoil, frustration,

finger-pointing, accusations, slanderous comments, and all the other

negativity that is well-represented here on IEQuality. I wonder how

the public views us? We surely are not doing the Public any favors by

not getting along and resolving our problems and differences.

For what it is worth

,

I am perplexed with your decision as a contractor to assume the

professional liability of the IEP. When you disagree with the IEP, you

need to bring this fact up to them so you both are on the same page.

In my teaching of contractors, I cannot agree or promote your

approach. Yes, I recognize you have special training as an IEP, but

you have to admit that you are unusual and " you are not " the everyday

water, sewage, mold remediation restorer. You have elected to take on

two roles and assumed two sets of liability. Respectfully, in this

forum or subject, I would appreciate you consider looking outside the

box and quit talking about Rosen, Ph.D., and realize there are

few Rosen Ph.D.'s, IEP, contractor, out in the market place.

Yes, you are special, but , really, some of the things you promote

cannot be followed by the everyday, U.S., Canadian, U.K., Aussie,

European contractor without increasing their liability.

Moffett

_____

From: iequality

[mailto:iequality ]

<mailto:iequality %5d> On Behalf Of gary rosen

Sent:

Monday, January 29, 2007 4:49 PM To: iequality

Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

I do mold remediation work and many times get a protocol to follow

that was written by an IEP. Just about 1 per week. I've never yet

followed one and done hundreds of remediations. We replace the

protocol with our own.

I explain to the client that you don't know what you have to do until

the walls are opened or the baseboard is pulled etc. And then you may

have to do more or usually much less than the protocol that was

proposed.

I explain that I am licensed building contractor and the guy writing

the protocol has no construction experience and has no mold

insurance.

And then if they have any questions I asked them to see if the guy who

wrote the protocol will provide any type of certification or warranty

for the work if his protocol is followed...if if he will refund the

owner if a wall is torn down and no mold found. So far that has never

happened.

Usually the decision is not complex. The person deciding wants:

1.) Low price.

2.) Certificate.

3.) Job done right.

4.) Minimum people to deal with and a single responsible party to

guarantee the job.

No doubt if someone wrote a good protocol we would follow it. Usually

the protocol we see is some kind of pages and pages boilerplate.

Never

any clearnace criteria. Ours are 1 page with photos of the walls or

areas to be remediated and captions underneath as to what we plan to

do.

In Florida a licensed contractor is 100% responsible for work done no

matter how many subcontractors he uses. He provides the warranty.

He

is the target of the lawsuit or Licensing Board actions. People like

how this is structured. Simple. We try to keep it simple.

I mentioned earlier that I do much work for attorneys in Florida. We

have been running a 1/3 page ad in the Florida Bar News for a long

time. Attorneys in our state appear to always recommend that their

clients hire someone that takes complete responsibility for a job.

They understand the contractor model and how that protects their

clients and recommends that model for mold work.

I know things are different in other states such as California. But

that is how they are here.

Rosen, Ph.D.

www.Mold-Books.com <http://www.Mold-Books.com>

<http://www.Mold-Books.com>

RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol?

,

You said:

But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove

water

damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new.

The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can

document the work with picturesd during the remediation.

You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning:

which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want

an

IEP. The stuff you can see isn't the problem, hopefully. Mark Doughty

_____

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=39654 6091>

<http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9

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