Guest guest Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 , I agree that all project data (including documents) should be gathered and filed in the clients file. You also stated you do the same and that is a very good idea. In your post to Mark you said: “Do you know how often I see fine cleaning in an IEP's protocol? Almost never. You know why because they can't get any mold remediation referrals if they do. IEP almost always overlook fine cleaning. Have you ever addressed the IEP and directed him/her to the appropriate documents that address fine cleaning? Because if your in the area where is happens more than not, you could help by making an issue over the absents of the fine cleaning rather than allow the other IEP off the hook only to place yourself in the hot seat. I think it’s better to let a job go than not follow industry standards and industry guidelines. (was away for a few days) Bob/Ma. From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 5:30 PM To: iequality Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? Mark, I find the opposite to be true... Do you know how often I see fine cleaning in an IEP's protocol? Almost never. You know why because they can't get any mold remediation referrals if they do. IEP almost always overlook fine cleaning. At our remediation company, we take pre-remediation baseline testing for all jobs no matter how small and then post-remediation testing and send to an independent lab. Does the client need to hire an IEP to turn on a sampling pump? We can do this ourselves without an IEP's help. Rosen RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? , You said: But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new. The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation. You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully. Mark Doughty Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2007 Report Share Posted January 28, 2007 Thanks to Mark, I am fixing my typo. I miss said what I meant. I have never seen a protocol that didn’t have “finer cleaning” in it (Never). Come on, any mold remediation class one takes addresses the fine cleaning as the most costly portion of the project. It not a demo project, it’s a microbial project. Bob/Ma. From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of ciec_bob Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:09 PM To: iequality Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? Steve, I don't know where lives and/or conducts business but I have never seen a protocol where fine cleaning is involved. Maybe this is why he is above the rest of all of us and is able to do everything i.e. consulting, remediation, and clearance. Seeing asked Mark for his Dec page, maybe would be so kind as to send us a copy of your insurance policy that states he does acts in all capacities of the project. I do not know of an insurance company that would write such a policy knowing the risk involved. I wonder if he even has an SOP? and is/was it attached to his application? Bob/Ma. > > In a message dated 1/23/2007 6:56:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, > garyrosen72652@... writes: > > Do you know how often I see fine cleaning in an IEP's protocol? Almost > > never. You know why because they can't get any mold remediation referrals if > > they do. IEP almost always overlook fine cleaning. > > > What??!! EVERY scope I have ever seen prepared by an IEP calls for > damp-wiping and/or HEPA vacuuming of surfaces. I thought this was the whole purpose of > using a remediation contractor rather than a handyman to remove mold. IEPs > should not be getting mold remediation referrals at all, that's the remediation > contractor's job. The whole idea is to maintain the independence of the two > for better quality assurance. > > Steve Temes > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 You don't like the Texas Regs,... fine, don't work in Texas. But all your posting here is not anything like the reality I am seeing. I don't and, don't you worry, I won't. I wonder if anyone else in Texas sees the same reality you do. I have to honestly say that I think you are ideally suited to teach the Texas mold regs. You seem to enjoy knowing the regulations as much as I enjoy helping real people resolve IAQ problems cost-effectively. I would just ask others to study the actual benefits as well as the negative consequences that the Texas mold regs have brought to the residents of the state before doing what Texas did out of desperation during a homeowners insurance crisis. Like Dana said, the regs have nothing to do with public health or IAQ. And, like he also said, if an industry can't regulate itself, the government has the right to do it for them. Steve Temes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 Bob/Ma. We don't use other IEPs. We do our own assessment along with the remediation and don't take jobs where we would leave the place dirty. My point was that there is an inherent conflict with using an IEP. They need more work and are often willing overlook cleaning as part of their protocol. If they specify a low cost solution there is more money in the pot for them. It is typically better for the remediation contractor to use the limited budget for doing a better job rather than hiring an IEP to tell you what you aleady need to know on simple jobs. Rosen RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? , You said: But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new. The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation. You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully. Mark Doughty Need Mail bonding?Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 , I am more confused now than before. If you don’t use other IEP’s than how is it you never (as you stated) see protocols with fine cleaning in them? This could only be possible if you were the IEP who never adds in the fine cleaning in the protocol (because as you state you never use IEP’s). I didn’t think you were saying that. So where are the protocols and who wrote them and to whom were they addressing (which remediation company)? I am referring to the ones you have observed that never addressed fine cleaning. Please help me understand more clearly. Bob/Ma. From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 2:32 PM To: iequality Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? Bob/Ma. We don't use other IEPs. We do our own assessment along with the remediation and don't take jobs where we would leave the place dirty. My point was that there is an inherent conflict with using an IEP. They need more work and are often willing overlook cleaning as part of their protocol. If they specify a low cost solution there is more money in the pot for them. It is typically better for the remediation contractor to use the limited budget for doing a better job rather than hiring an IEP to tell you what you aleady need to know on simple jobs. Rosen RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? , You said: But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new. The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation. You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully. Mark Doughty Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 , I am more confused now than before. If you don’t use other IEP’s than how is it you never (as you stated) see protocols with fine cleaning in them? This could only be possible if you were the IEP who never adds in the fine cleaning in the protocol (because as you state you never use IEP’s). I didn’t think you were saying that. So where are the protocols and who wrote them and to whom were they addressing (which remediation company)? I am referring to the ones you have observed that never addressed fine cleaning. Please help me understand more clearly. Bob/Ma. From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 2:32 PM To: iequality Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? Bob/Ma. We don't use other IEPs. We do our own assessment along with the remediation and don't take jobs where we would leave the place dirty. My point was that there is an inherent conflict with using an IEP. They need more work and are often willing overlook cleaning as part of their protocol. If they specify a low cost solution there is more money in the pot for them. It is typically better for the remediation contractor to use the limited budget for doing a better job rather than hiring an IEP to tell you what you aleady need to know on simple jobs. Rosen RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? , You said: But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new. The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation. You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully. Mark Doughty Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 , I am more confused now than before. If you don’t use other IEP’s than how is it you never (as you stated) see protocols with fine cleaning in them? This could only be possible if you were the IEP who never adds in the fine cleaning in the protocol (because as you state you never use IEP’s). I didn’t think you were saying that. So where are the protocols and who wrote them and to whom were they addressing (which remediation company)? I am referring to the ones you have observed that never addressed fine cleaning. Please help me understand more clearly. Bob/Ma. From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 2:32 PM To: iequality Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? Bob/Ma. We don't use other IEPs. We do our own assessment along with the remediation and don't take jobs where we would leave the place dirty. My point was that there is an inherent conflict with using an IEP. They need more work and are often willing overlook cleaning as part of their protocol. If they specify a low cost solution there is more money in the pot for them. It is typically better for the remediation contractor to use the limited budget for doing a better job rather than hiring an IEP to tell you what you aleady need to know on simple jobs. Rosen RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? , You said: But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new. The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation. You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully. Mark Doughty Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 - Holy cow. Are you kidding??? Maybe it is that a qualified IAQ/IEQ consultant (insert coin tag IEP here) would FAIL your work, based on the fact that you probably show up (based upon your posts) with a bucket of bleach water (or Tilex or whatever), a box fan, and some old rags. Cripes. Let me guess - you're probably a big proponent of Kilz too? Here's a quick question for you : " Does the " mold insurance " you carry cover you as a consultant or a remediator? Which one did you choose on your application Dr. ? The fact that you hold a cert from American IAQ Council completely makes me ill... Also, please stop promoting your self-published dime store books. Thanks. -Stacey Champion > > Bob/Ma. > > We don't use other IEPs. We do our own assessment along with the remediation and don't take jobs where we would leave the place dirty. > > My point was that there is an inherent conflict with using an IEP. They need more work and are often willing overlook cleaning as part of their protocol. If they specify a low cost solution there is more money in the pot for them. > > It is typically better for the remediation contractor to use the limited budget for doing a better job rather than hiring an IEP to tell you what you aleady need to know on simple jobs. > > Rosen > > > RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? > , > > You said: > > But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new. > The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation. > > You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn't the problem, hopefully. > Mark Doughty > > > > > > > Need Mail bonding? > Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ _______________ > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time > with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 - Holy cow. Are you kidding??? Maybe it is that a qualified IAQ/IEQ consultant (insert coin tag IEP here) would FAIL your work, based on the fact that you probably show up (based upon your posts) with a bucket of bleach water (or Tilex or whatever), a box fan, and some old rags. Cripes. Let me guess - you're probably a big proponent of Kilz too? Here's a quick question for you : " Does the " mold insurance " you carry cover you as a consultant or a remediator? Which one did you choose on your application Dr. ? The fact that you hold a cert from American IAQ Council completely makes me ill... Also, please stop promoting your self-published dime store books. Thanks. -Stacey Champion > > Bob/Ma. > > We don't use other IEPs. We do our own assessment along with the remediation and don't take jobs where we would leave the place dirty. > > My point was that there is an inherent conflict with using an IEP. They need more work and are often willing overlook cleaning as part of their protocol. If they specify a low cost solution there is more money in the pot for them. > > It is typically better for the remediation contractor to use the limited budget for doing a better job rather than hiring an IEP to tell you what you aleady need to know on simple jobs. > > Rosen > > > RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? > , > > You said: > > But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new. > The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation. > > You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn't the problem, hopefully. > Mark Doughty > > > > > > > Need Mail bonding? > Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ _______________ > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time > with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 - Holy cow. Are you kidding??? Maybe it is that a qualified IAQ/IEQ consultant (insert coin tag IEP here) would FAIL your work, based on the fact that you probably show up (based upon your posts) with a bucket of bleach water (or Tilex or whatever), a box fan, and some old rags. Cripes. Let me guess - you're probably a big proponent of Kilz too? Here's a quick question for you : " Does the " mold insurance " you carry cover you as a consultant or a remediator? Which one did you choose on your application Dr. ? The fact that you hold a cert from American IAQ Council completely makes me ill... Also, please stop promoting your self-published dime store books. Thanks. -Stacey Champion > > Bob/Ma. > > We don't use other IEPs. We do our own assessment along with the remediation and don't take jobs where we would leave the place dirty. > > My point was that there is an inherent conflict with using an IEP. They need more work and are often willing overlook cleaning as part of their protocol. If they specify a low cost solution there is more money in the pot for them. > > It is typically better for the remediation contractor to use the limited budget for doing a better job rather than hiring an IEP to tell you what you aleady need to know on simple jobs. > > Rosen > > > RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? > , > > You said: > > But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new. > The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation. > > You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn't the problem, hopefully. > Mark Doughty > > > > > > > Need Mail bonding? > Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ _______________ > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time > with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 I do mold remediation work and many times get a protocol to follow that was written by an IEP. Just about 1 per week. I've never yet followed one and done hundreds of remediations. We replace the protocol with our own. I explain to the client that you don't know what you have to do until the walls are opened or the baseboard is pulled etc. And then you may have to do more or usually much less than the protocol that was proposed. I explain that I am licensed building contractor and the guy writing the protocol has no construction experience and has no mold insurance. And then if they have any questions I asked them to see if the guy who wrote the protocol will provide any type of certification or warranty for the work if his protocol is followed...if if he will refund the owner if a wall is torn down and no mold found. So far that has never happened. Usually the decision is not complex. The person deciding wants: 1.) Low price. 2.) Certificate. 3.) Job done right. 4.) Minimum people to deal with and a single responsible party to guarantee the job. No doubt if someone wrote a good protocol we would follow it. Usually the protocol we see is some kind of pages and pages boilerplate. Never any clearnace criteria. Ours are 1 page with photos of the walls or areas to be remediated and captions underneath as to what we plan to do. In Florida a licensed contractor is 100% responsible for work done no matter how many subcontractors he uses. He provides the warranty. He is the target of the lawsuit or Licensing Board actions. People like how this is structured. Simple. We try to keep it simple. I mentioned earlier that I do much work for attorneys in Florida. We have been running a 1/3 page ad in the Florida Bar News for a long time. Attorneys in our state appear to always recommend that their clients hire someone that takes complete responsibility for a job. They understand the contractor model and how that protects their clients and recommends that model for mold work. I know things are different in other states such as California. But that is how they are here. Rosen, Ph.D. www.Mold-Books.com RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? , You said: But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new. The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation. You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully. Mark Doughty Need Mail bonding?Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 In a message dated 1/29/2007 6:56:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, iequality writes: you're probably a big proponent of Kilz too? Hey now, what's wrong with that? the name says it ALL. Right? Doesn't it? You mean, hey wait a minute, it's only for stains? Oh, what's in a name anyhow? It smells as sweet! mmmmm, gimme some BIN too. Armour, M.S.Armour Applied Science, LLCGreen Building Healthy BuildingCleveland, OH "The problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them." A.Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 , I am perplexed with your decision as a contractor to assume the professional liability of the IEP. When you disagree with the IEP, you need to bring this fact up to them so you both are on the same page. In my teaching of contractors, I cannot agree or promote your approach. Yes, I recognize you have special training as an IEP, but you have to admit that you are unusual and “you are not” the everyday water, sewage, mold remediation restorer. You have elected to take on two roles and assumed two sets of liability. Respectfully, in this forum or subject, I would appreciate you consider looking outside the box and quit talking about Rosen, Ph.D., and realize there are few Rosen Ph.D.’s, IEP, contractor, out in the market place. Yes, you are special, but , really, some of the things you promote cannot be followed by the everyday, U.S., Canadian, U.K., Aussie, European contractor without increasing their liability. Moffett From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 4:49 PM To: iequality Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? I do mold remediation work and many times get a protocol to follow that was written by an IEP. Just about 1 per week. I've never yet followed one and done hundreds of remediations. We replace the protocol with our own. I explain to the client that you don't know what you have to do until the walls are opened or the baseboard is pulled etc. And then you may have to do more or usually much less than the protocol that was proposed. I explain that I am licensed building contractor and the guy writing the protocol has no construction experience and has no mold insurance. And then if they have any questions I asked them to see if the guy who wrote the protocol will provide any type of certification or warranty for the work if his protocol is followed...if if he will refund the owner if a wall is torn down and no mold found. So far that has never happened. Usually the decision is not complex. The person deciding wants: 1.) Low price. 2.) Certificate. 3.) Job done right. 4.) Minimum people to deal with and a single responsible party to guarantee the job. No doubt if someone wrote a good protocol we would follow it. Usually the protocol we see is some kind of pages and pages boilerplate. Never any clearnace criteria. Ours are 1 page with photos of the walls or areas to be remediated and captions underneath as to what we plan to do. In Florida a licensed contractor is 100% responsible for work done no matter how many subcontractors he uses. He provides the warranty. He is the target of the lawsuit or Licensing Board actions. People like how this is structured. Simple. We try to keep it simple. I mentioned earlier that I do much work for attorneys in Florida. We have been running a 1/3 page ad in the Florida Bar News for a long time. Attorneys in our state appear to always recommend that their clients hire someone that takes complete responsibility for a job. They understand the contractor model and how that protects their clients and recommends that model for mold work. I know things are different in other states such as California. But that is how they are here. Rosen, Ph.D. www.Mold-Books.com RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? , You said: But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new. The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation. You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully. Mark Doughty Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 , I’m having a little trouble getting my head around a couple of items in this post: ( Rosen - Certified Mold Free.) and It is always around us in the air we breath, in the food we eat and in the walls and attics of the homes we live in. So which is it, certified mold free or all around us? Doesn’t seem to me like it can be both. Mark Doughty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 As the proverbial fox, I want to send you some tooth picks to get that chicken out of you teeth while you lounge in the hen house. What a rare and exceeding wonderful contractor you are; and if any of you don't believe it.... just ask him. We should all be so blessed with your intellect, talent and personal insight. Danny RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? , You said: But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new. The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation. You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully. Mark Doughty Need Mail bonding?Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 All: The truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. I have seen many IEP protocols that are boiler plate, have little to do with the building at hand, and every section ends with something like "....and if you find anything different after you start, use your best professional judgment." On the other hand I have seen many that instruct and quantify the work to be done, often wall by wall. They also have sections that end with "...and if you find anything different after you start, use your best professional judgment." Often times much is left to judgment of the remediator, because he is the one on the job every day. As for a guarantee for protocols, good luck. I saw one IEP out of TN that had an indemnification & hold harmless agreement in his contract with the insuror. When told that they could not sign that, he took it out and then turned in a protocol to tear out the entire house, effectively creating an unnecessary total loss. S520, flawed as you might think that it is, is the standard at the moment. Dr. Rosen is correct in stating that it is often up to the remediator to determine if an IEP is necessary. Remember, though, that just because you SAY an IEP is not necessary means that it is true. A reasonable standard of care must be followed. DR. Rosen, stop testing your own work. It is a direct conflict of interest according to S520 and all common sense. Once that fact becomes known in a conflict all your credibility is out the window. If post remediation testing is indicated it should be done by a third party, paid for by the property owner. The general tone of this thread is way wrong. I have rarely seen such a continued lack of respect on both sides of an issue. Dr. Rosen, not all IEP's are idiots. I predict about the same ratio can be found in contractors. As for you IEP's, most contractors are not idiots, just hard working guys trying to do the right thing. There is too much bluster & bullying on this board lately. I have been a part of it since it started, way back when all we talked about was candle soot. Please keep your comments professional and courteous. If you disagree, be nice about it. This particular thread has sunk to a new low of name calling & disrespect, & I for one will delete the posts on this thread until it is dead and gone. I encourage the moderator to hurry its demise. Cole, CR Sentry Construction Company, Inc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 I wish this guy (PhD wizard) would stop talking out of both sides of his mouth and stop spreading his self-serving propaganda.gary rosen wrote: Bob/Ma. We don't use other IEPs. We do our own assessment along with the remediation and don't take jobs where we would leave the place dirty. My point was that there is an inherent conflict with using an IEP. They need more work and are often willing overlook cleaning as part of their protocol. If they specify a low cost solution there is more money in the pot for them. It is typically better for the remediation contractor to use the limited budget for doing a better job rather than hiring an IEP to tell you what you aleady need to know on simple jobs. Rosen RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? , You said: But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new. The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation. You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully. Mark Doughty Need Mail bonding?Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 I don't disagree with anything you said .... except about testing my own work. Of course there are fine IEPs that write fine protocols. But they are expensive and almost never found on every day jobs. We all know this because in general, insurance will not pay for fine IEPs to write custom protocols and then update the protocol as the walls are opened for every day jobs. So what is a remediator to do? About testing ... As a remediator I do my own post-remdiation testing for quality control purposes. If there is an IEP and they do their own additional testing fine. Then there are two sets of test results. If there is no IEP and no one else to take tests, I take tests to know if more cleaning is needed and to protect myself from liability. If you don't do post remediation testing and lets say there is another water problem and mold growth and the house or office is contaminated 6 months later ... how can you show that you did not actually leave the house contaminated. I recommend that all mold remediators do their own baseline (pre-remediation) testing also so they can determine what background level of mold is present as this affects how the job will be quoted. How much cleaning must be done? If Stachy is present you may need more cleaning. If the house is "dirty" you may not be able to clear the house unless the carpet is replaced and then you need to put that in your proposal. At least in our state the insurance providers do not want to pay for testing. They rarely pay. As remediators we just absorb this cost as part of doing business. We do many $2K mold jobs (1-2 sheets of drywall) expecially for real estate transactions. These include remediation and drywall and baseboard build back and then white primer paint. If we have to do 4 or 6 samples which can cost us $100-$150 approximately that is a cost of doing business. No one is going to pay for a decent IEP on any job this size or even somewhat bigger. When we provide a certificate for our work we state that we did not leave the work area or surrounding area contaminated with mold as a result of the remediation. We can't do that without testing. Rosen, Ph.D. www.Mold-Free.org Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? All: The truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. I have seen many IEP protocols that are boiler plate, have little to do with the building at hand, and every section ends with something like "....and if you find anything different after you start, use your best professional judgment." On the other hand I have seen many that instruct and quantify the work to be done, often wall by wall. They also have sections that end with "...and if you find anything different after you start, use your best professional judgment." Often times much is left to judgment of the remediator, because he is the one on the job every day. As for a guarantee for protocols, good luck. I saw one IEP out of TN that had an indemnification & hold harmless agreement in his contract with the insuror. When told that they could not sign that, he took it out and then turned in a protocol to tear out the entire house, effectively creating an unnecessary total loss. S520, flawed as you might think that it is, is the standard at the moment. Dr. Rosen is correct in stating that it is often up to the remediator to determine if an IEP is necessary. Remember, though, that just because you SAY an IEP is not necessary means that it is true. A reasonable standard of care must be followed. DR. Rosen, stop testing your own work. It is a direct conflict of interest according to S520 and all common sense. Once that fact becomes known in a conflict all your credibility is out the window. If post remediation testing is indicated it should be done by a third party, paid for by the property owner. The general tone of this thread is way wrong. I have rarely seen such a continued lack of respect on both sides of an issue. Dr. Rosen, not all IEP's are idiots. I predict about the same ratio can be found in contractors. As for you IEP's, most contractors are not idiots, just hard working guys trying to do the right thing. There is too much bluster & bullying on this board lately. I have been a part of it since it started, way back when all we talked about was candle soot. Please keep your comments professional and courteous. If you disagree, be nice about it. This particular thread has sunk to a new low of name calling & disrespect, & I for one will delete the posts on this thread until it is dead and gone. I encourage the moderator to hurry its demise. Cole, CR Sentry Construction Company, Inc. Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 Pat: While your point regarding Rosen has merit, i.e., “I am perplexed with your decision as a contractor to assume the professional liability of the IEP,” there is another aspect of this that is TOTALLY lost on the IEPs that seem to be incredulous with and his methods. First let me tackle this perception of “professional liability” of the IEP. Most IEPs are not licensed by the state that they practice in, they are not bonded, they do not have liabilities that a 10 and 15-yr statute of limitations imbues upon contractors, and they do not warranty their work. These are REALLY big issues that factor into the long-term liability of any remediation project. This “professional liability of the IEP” is nothing like the professional liabilities you, or I, or others, as PEs have, and it is unlike the liabilities that licensed contractors have. In my opinion, professional liability of the IEP is weak. As you and I know, many IEPs lack any substantial knowledge or experience with construction, they have never been a contractor or built something of significance, and have no clue that the mold spec that they need to write needs to be a construction-based (not IH-based) spec. A remediation contractor who follows a nonconstruction-based spec that has errors and omissions from a contracting perspective, opens themselves up to significant long-term liabilities. Based on most of the mold specs that I see written by IEPs, if I were a practicing remediation contractor I would be doing the same thing that is doing, i.e., follow my own spec. Your recommendation that disagreements with an IEP need to be aired, is right on. This needs to be their first step in any dispute, i.e., on site resolution. However, how far should a contractor go, and to what effort, to educate the IEP in the merits of construction? Moreover, I all too often see the IEP acting as the Top Dog in a remediation project, and their protocols and position often stinks from a lack of experience - they are a mangy dog in my opinion and they often get argumentative. In this instance, I feel that the contractor is well-justified going to the client/owner and stating....If you want me to warranty this work and put my insurance on the line, I am going to do it my way. This is ’s position AND it may represent the lesser of the liabilities to him and his projects. This concept of the contractor following their own design and spec is nothing new! For those non-construction folks reading this post it is called: Design-Build, and this method of construction has its merits; as well as pitfalls. If done correctly it often saves owners a lot of $$$. All this said, I am not here to say what does is righteous or perfect, but I can support his position, i.e., when the IEPs protocol stinks, use his own. The overly negative comments from IEPs blasting for his opinions and methods are, in my opinion, self-righteous whines from un-licensed, un-bonded, inexperienced mold practitioners who do not, or are unwilling to, warranty their work for 10+ years. Yes...there are very few Rosen Ph.D.s out there practicing and performing mold remediation. Like you said, most remediation contractors cannot, and should not, do what does, because they lack experience. Moreover, many IEPs lack experience. This said, where is this all going to lead us? I see turmoil, frustration, finger-pointing, accusations, slanderous comments, and all the other negativity that is well-represented here on IEQuality. I wonder how the public views us? We surely are not doing the Public any favors by not getting along and resolving our problems and differences. For what it is worth , I am perplexed with your decision as a contractor to assume the professional liability of the IEP. When you disagree with the IEP, you need to bring this fact up to them so you both are on the same page. In my teaching of contractors, I cannot agree or promote your approach. Yes, I recognize you have special training as an IEP, but you have to admit that you are unusual and “you are not” the everyday water, sewage, mold remediation restorer. You have elected to take on two roles and assumed two sets of liability. Respectfully, in this forum or subject, I would appreciate you consider looking outside the box and quit talking about Rosen, Ph.D., and realize there are few Rosen Ph.D.’s, IEP, contractor, out in the market place. Yes, you are special, but , really, some of the things you promote cannot be followed by the everyday, U.S., Canadian, U.K., Aussie, European contractor without increasing their liability. Moffett From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 4:49 PM To: iequality Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? I do mold remediation work and many times get a protocol to follow that was written by an IEP. Just about 1 per week. I've never yet followed one and done hundreds of remediations. We replace the protocol with our own. I explain to the client that you don't know what you have to do until the walls are opened or the baseboard is pulled etc. And then you may have to do more or usually much less than the protocol that was proposed. I explain that I am licensed building contractor and the guy writing the protocol has no construction experience and has no mold insurance. And then if they have any questions I asked them to see if the guy who wrote the protocol will provide any type of certification or warranty for the work if his protocol is followed...if if he will refund the owner if a wall is torn down and no mold found. So far that has never happened. Usually the decision is not complex. The person deciding wants: 1.) Low price. 2.) Certificate. 3.) Job done right. 4.) Minimum people to deal with and a single responsible party to guarantee the job. No doubt if someone wrote a good protocol we would follow it. Usually the protocol we see is some kind of pages and pages boilerplate. Never any clearnace criteria. Ours are 1 page with photos of the walls or areas to be remediated and captions underneath as to what we plan to do. In Florida a licensed contractor is 100% responsible for work done no matter how many subcontractors he uses. He provides the warranty. He is the target of the lawsuit or Licensing Board actions. People like how this is structured. Simple. We try to keep it simple. I mentioned earlier that I do much work for attorneys in Florida. We have been running a 1/3 page ad in the Florida Bar News for a long time. Attorneys in our state appear to always recommend that their clients hire someone that takes complete responsibility for a job. They understand the contractor model and how that protects their clients and recommends that model for mold work. I know things are different in other states such as California. But that is how they are here. Rosen, Ph.D. www.Mold-Books.com <http://www.Mold-Books.com> RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? , You said: But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new. The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation. You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully. Mark Doughty Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A <http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0NTEwOARfcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx?link=ask & amp;sid=396546091> for great tips from Yahoo! Answers <http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0NTEwOARfcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx?link=ask & amp;sid=396546091> users. We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http:/tv.yahoo.com/collections/265%0d%0a> (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http:/tv.yahoo.com/collections/265%0d%0a> Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. <http://pa.yahoo.com/*http:/us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=36035/*http:/music.yahoo.com/unlimited/> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 & Danny, Just a suggestion. If everyone stops responding to Dr. , he won't have anyone to toot his horn to about how omnipotent he is. Then he'll have to start his own group. Perhaps " The World According to the Great Dr. " . I wonder how many members he'll get? Cheers, Chuck Reaney, CIAQetc. I wish this guy (PhD wizard) would stop talking out of both sides of his mouth and stop spreading his self-serving propaganda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 , There is no way for you to toot your horn because without an unbiased IEP (which you don’t use) therefore there is no way to prove you don’t leave the project dirty. Besides, dirty and micro contamination conditions can and do vary. One you can see, there other may be undetectable with the naked eye. Therefore how can you tell us that you never leave a job dirty? I believe you may mean no longer contaminated. Bob/Ma. From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of ryan sherry Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:56 PM To: iequality Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? I wish this guy (PhD wizard) would stop talking out of both sides of his mouth and stop spreading his self-serving propaganda. gary rosen <garyrosen72652> wrote: Bob/Ma. We don't use other IEPs. We do our own assessment along with the remediation and don't take jobs where we would leave the place dirty. My point was that there is an inherent conflict with using an IEP. They need more work and are often willing overlook cleaning as part of their protocol. If they specify a low cost solution there is more money in the pot for them. It is typically better for the remediation contractor to use the limited budget for doing a better job rather than hiring an IEP to tell you what you aleady need to know on simple jobs. Rosen RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? , You said: But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new. The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation. You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully. Mark Doughty Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 , A simple answer is: My company as a California licensed general contractor, does not provide conflicting remediation process that biases our work. Our environmental side and the construction-restoration side are two separate companies. In fact, I decided years ago to provide adjuster and attorney litigation support, expert witness and arbitration related to construction defect claims; meaning, I no longer provide remediation and restoration services. Today, our services are designed to provide California licensed construction and California registered environmental support to adjusters and contractors who are actively involved in emergency cleanup and restoration. Especially where there are extenuating situations where there is a need to address: employee health and occupant exposure; work related safety issues; tailgate meetings; on-site fit testing and training; project scope writing; testing and monitoring for both chemical industrial hygiene and environmental microbial indices; project oversight, clearance and closure. Thanks for the inquiry. Moffett From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Geyer Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 9:33 AM To: iequality Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? Pat: While your point regarding Rosen has merit, i.e., “I am perplexed with your decision as a contractor to assume the professional liability of the IEP,” there is another aspect of this that is TOTALLY lost on the IEPs that seem to be incredulous with and his methods. First let me tackle this perception of “professional liability” of the IEP. Most IEPs are not licensed by the state that they practice in, they are not bonded, they do not have liabilities that a 10 and 15-yr statute of limitations imbues upon contractors, and they do not warranty their work. These are REALLY big issues that factor into the long-term liability of any remediation project. This “professional liability of the IEP” is nothing like the professional liabilities you, or I, or others, as PEs have, and it is unlike the liabilities that licensed contractors have. In my opinion, professional liability of the IEP is weak. As you and I know, many IEPs lack any substantial knowledge or experience with construction, they have never been a contractor or built something of significance, and have no clue that the mold spec that they need to write needs to be a construction-based (not IH-based) spec. A remediation contractor who follows a nonconstruction-based spec that has errors and omissions from a contracting perspective, opens themselves up to significant long-term liabilities. Based on most of the mold specs that I see written by IEPs, if I were a practicing remediation contractor I would be doing the same thing that is doing, i.e., follow my own spec. Your recommendation that disagreements with an IEP need to be aired, is right on. This needs to be their first step in any dispute, i.e., on site resolution. However, how far should a contractor go, and to what effort, to educate the IEP in the merits of construction? Moreover, I all too often see the IEP acting as the Top Dog in a remediation project, and their protocols and position often stinks from a lack of experience - they are a mangy dog in my opinion and they often get argumentative. In this instance, I feel that the contractor is well-justified going to the client/owner and stating....If you want me to warranty this work and put my insurance on the line, I am going to do it my way. This is ’s position AND it may represent the lesser of the liabilities to him and his projects. This concept of the contractor following their own design and spec is nothing new! For those non-construction folks reading this post it is called: Design-Build, and this method of construction has its merits; as well as pitfalls. If done correctly it often saves owners a lot of $$$. All this said, I am not here to say what does is righteous or perfect, but I can support his position, i.e., when the IEPs protocol stinks, use his own. The overly negative comments from IEPs blasting for his opinions and methods are, in my opinion, self-righteous whines from un-licensed, un-bonded, inexperienced mold practitioners who do not, or are unwilling to, warranty their work for 10+ years. Yes...there are very few Rosen Ph.D.s out there practicing and performing mold remediation. Like you said, most remediation contractors cannot, and should not, do what does, because they lack experience. Moreover, many IEPs lack experience. This said, where is this all going to lead us? I see turmoil, frustration, finger-pointing, accusations, slanderous comments, and all the other negativity that is well-represented here on IEQuality. I wonder how the public views us? We surely are not doing the Public any favors by not getting along and resolving our problems and differences. For what it is worth On 1/30/07 8:24 AM, " Moffett " <pmoffettemeiaq> wrote: , I am perplexed with your decision as a contractor to assume the professional liability of the IEP. When you disagree with the IEP, you need to bring this fact up to them so you both are on the same page. In my teaching of contractors, I cannot agree or promote your approach. Yes, I recognize you have special training as an IEP, but you have to admit that you are unusual and “you are not” the everyday water, sewage, mold remediation restorer. You have elected to take on two roles and assumed two sets of liability. Respectfully, in this forum or subject, I would appreciate you consider looking outside the box and quit talking about Rosen, Ph.D., and realize there are few Rosen Ph.D.’s, IEP, contractor, out in the market place. Yes, you are special, but , really, some of the things you promote cannot be followed by the everyday, U.S., Canadian, U.K., Aussie, European contractor without increasing their liability. Moffett From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 4:49 PM To: iequality Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? I do mold remediation work and many times get a protocol to follow that was written by an IEP. Just about 1 per week. I've never yet followed one and done hundreds of remediations. We replace the protocol with our own. I explain to the client that you don't know what you have to do until the walls are opened or the baseboard is pulled etc. And then you may have to do more or usually much less than the protocol that was proposed. I explain that I am licensed building contractor and the guy writing the protocol has no construction experience and has no mold insurance. And then if they have any questions I asked them to see if the guy who wrote the protocol will provide any type of certification or warranty for the work if his protocol is followed...if if he will refund the owner if a wall is torn down and no mold found. So far that has never happened. Usually the decision is not complex. The person deciding wants: 1.) Low price. 2.) Certificate. 3.) Job done right. 4.) Minimum people to deal with and a single responsible party to guarantee the job. No doubt if someone wrote a good protocol we would follow it. Usually the protocol we see is some kind of pages and pages boilerplate. Never any clearnace criteria. Ours are 1 page with photos of the walls or areas to be remediated and captions underneath as to what we plan to do. In Florida a licensed contractor is 100% responsible for work done no matter how many subcontractors he uses. He provides the warranty. He is the target of the lawsuit or Licensing Board actions. People like how this is structured. Simple. We try to keep it simple. I mentioned earlier that I do much work for attorneys in Florida. We have been running a 1/3 page ad in the Florida Bar News for a long time. Attorneys in our state appear to always recommend that their clients hire someone that takes complete responsibility for a job. They understand the contractor model and how that protects their clients and recommends that model for mold work. I know things are different in other states such as California. But that is how they are here. Rosen, Ph.D. www.Mold-Books.com <http://www.Mold-Books.com> RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? , You said: But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new. The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation. You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully. Mark Doughty Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A <http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0NTEwOARfcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx?link=ask & amp;sid=396546091> for great tips from Yahoo! Answers <http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0NTEwOARfcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx?link=ask & amp;sid=396546091> users. We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http:/tv.yahoo.com/collections/265%0d%0a> (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http:/tv.yahoo.com/collections/265%0d%0a> Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. <http://pa.yahoo.com/*http:/us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=36035/*http:/music.yahoo.com/unlimited/> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 " - We do many $2K mold jobs (1-2 sheets of drywall) expecially for real estate transactions. " - Bluntly, you are ripping people off. Shame on you. I only have one word to say to you - KARMA S.C. > > > > I don't disagree with anything you said .... except about testing my own work. Of course there are fine IEPs that write fine protocols. But they are expensive and almost never found on every day jobs. We all know this because in general, insurance will not pay for fine IEPs to write custom protocols and then update the protocol as the walls are opened for every day jobs. So what is a remediator to do? > > About testing ... > > As a remediator I do my own post-remdiation testing for quality control purposes. If there is an IEP and they do their own additional testing fine. Then there are two sets of test results. If there is no IEP and no one else to take tests, I take tests to know if more cleaning is needed and to protect myself from liability. If you don't do post remediation testing and lets say there is another water problem and mold growth and the house or office is contaminated 6 months later ... how can you show that you did not actually leave the house contaminated. > > I recommend that all mold remediators do their own baseline (pre- remediation) testing also so they can determine what background level of mold is present as this affects how the job will be quoted. How much cleaning must be done? If Stachy is present you may need more cleaning. If the house is " dirty " you may not be able to clear the house unless the carpet is replaced and then you need to put that in your proposal. > > At least in our state the insurance providers do not want to pay for testing. They rarely pay. As remediators we just absorb this cost as part of doing business. We do many $2K mold jobs (1-2 sheets of drywall) expecially for real estate transactions. These include remediation and drywall and baseboard build back and then white primer paint. If we have to do 4 or 6 samples which can cost us $100- $150 approximately that is a cost of doing business. No one is going to pay for a decent IEP on any job this size or even somewhat bigger. > > When we provide a certificate for our work we state that we did not leave the work area or surrounding area contaminated with mold as a result of the remediation. We can't do that without testing. > > Rosen, Ph.D. > www.Mold-Free.org > > > Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? > > All: > The truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. I have seen many IEP protocols that are boiler plate, have little to do with the building at hand, and every section ends with something like " ....and if you find anything different after you start, use your best professional judgment. " > On the other hand I have seen many that instruct and quantify the work to be done, often wall by wall. They also have sections that end with " ...and if you find anything different after you start, use your best professional judgment. " Often times much is left to judgment of the remediator, because he is the one on the job every day. > As for a guarantee for protocols, good luck. I saw one IEP out of TN that had an indemnification & hold harmless agreement in his contract with the insuror. When told that they could not sign that, he took it out and then turned in a protocol to tear out the entire house, effectively creating an unnecessary total loss. > S520, flawed as you might think that it is, is the standard at the moment. Dr. Rosen is correct in stating that it is often up to the remediator to determine if an IEP is necessary. Remember, though, that just because you SAY an IEP is not necessary means that it is true. A reasonable standard of care must be followed. DR. Rosen, stop testing your own work. It is a direct conflict of interest according to S520 and all common sense. Once that fact becomes known in a conflict all your credibility is out the window. If post remediation testing is indicated it should be done by a third party, paid for by the property owner. > The general tone of this thread is way wrong. I have rarely seen such a continued lack of respect on both sides of an issue. Dr. Rosen, not all IEP's are idiots. I predict about the same ratio can be found in contractors. As for you IEP's, most contractors are not idiots, just hard working guys trying to do the right thing. > There is too much bluster & bullying on this board lately. I have been a part of it since it started, way back when all we talked about was candle soot. Please keep your comments professional and courteous. If you disagree, be nice about it. This particular thread has sunk to a new low of name calling & disrespect, & I for one will delete the posts on this thread until it is dead and gone. I encourage the moderator to hurry its demise. > > Cole, CR > Sentry Construction Company, Inc. > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________ > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 I thought I’d make a comment on the term “bonded”, as in: ‘they are not bonded,’ This term aggravates me to no end when contractors state (or place on their business cards) licensed and bonded. 1. One, I know of none that are “bonded” for all jobs. 2. Two, most do not provide a bond with a project. 3. Most don’t even know what a bond really is. I figure if I’m whining I should at least educate on bonds. Simply speaking, a bond is a contractual surety on delivery – of goods, services, or money. Provided by a 3rd party. The typical bonds are: l Bid l Performance l Payment Bid - This is a bond for not pulling out of the bid process once submitted. Very common. Performance – If the contractor doesn’t perform the work, then the bond holder could require that the bonding company get the work performed at the bonding co.’s own cost. Payment – If the work is not completed, then the bonding co. foots the cost of the uncompleted work up to the bond amt. On government and larger private projects, one usually requires a bid bond and then either a performance or a payment bond. I prefer a performance bond because if the contractor low-balled it, the owner is stuck pickling up the difference. If the contractor has a bond claim – they will have very high costs getting another claim through. The bonding company that paid out will be relentless in getting to the contracting companies officers/owners for the losses they incurred. Those contractors that are good and have good assets get lower bond rates and can achieve an economically competitive edge. Bond rates could be say 1-3% of the job cost to 20% on risky ventures. But most contractors do NOT Bond a project and are being deceitful by saying they are “bonded”. Enough said. Tony ....................................................................... " Tony " Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE pH2, LLC 5250 E US 36, Suite 830 Avon, IN 46123 off fax cell 90% of Risk Management is knowing where to place the decimal point...any consultant can give you the other 10%(SM) This message is from pH2. This message and any attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information, and are intended only for the individual or entity identified above as the addressee. If you are not the addressee, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this message and any attachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and attachments (including all copies) and notify the sender by return e-mail or by phone at . Delivery of this message and any attachments to any person other than the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive confidentiality or a privilege. All personal messages express views only of the sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied or distributed without this statement. From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Geyer Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 12:33 PM To: iequality Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? Pat: While your point regarding Rosen has merit, i.e., “I am perplexed with your decision as a contractor to assume the professional liability of the IEP,” there is another aspect of this that is TOTALLY lost on the IEPs that seem to be incredulous with and his methods. First let me tackle this perception of “professional liability” of the IEP. Most IEPs are not licensed by the state that they practice in, they are not bonded, they do not have liabilities that a 10 and 15-yr statute of limitations imbues upon contractors, and they do not warranty their work. These are REALLY big issues that factor into the long-term liability of any remediation project. This “professional liability of the IEP” is nothing like the professional liabilities you, or I, or others, as PEs have, and it is unlike the liabilities that licensed contractors have. In my opinion, professional liability of the IEP is weak. As you and I know, many IEPs lack any substantial knowledge or experience with construction, they have never been a contractor or built something of significance, and have no clue that the mold spec that they need to write needs to be a construction-based (not IH-based) spec. A remediation contractor who follows a nonconstruction-based spec that has errors and omissions from a contracting perspective, opens themselves up to significant long-term liabilities. Based on most of the mold specs that I see written by IEPs, if I were a practicing remediation contractor I would be doing the same thing that is doing, i.e., follow my own spec. Your recommendation that disagreements with an IEP need to be aired, is right on. This needs to be their first step in any dispute, i.e., on site resolution. However, how far should a contractor go, and to what effort, to educate the IEP in the merits of construction? Moreover, I all too often see the IEP acting as the Top Dog in a remediation project, and their protocols and position often stinks from a lack of experience - they are a mangy dog in my opinion and they often get argumentative. In this instance, I feel that the contractor is well-justified going to the client/owner and stating....If you want me to warranty this work and put my insurance on the line, I am going to do it my way. This is ’s position AND it may represent the lesser of the liabilities to him and his projects. This concept of the contractor following their own design and spec is nothing new! For those non-construction folks reading this post it is called: Design-Build, and this method of construction has its merits; as well as pitfalls. If done correctly it often saves owners a lot of $$$. All this said, I am not here to say what does is righteous or perfect, but I can support his position, i.e., when the IEPs protocol stinks, use his own. The overly negative comments from IEPs blasting for his opinions and methods are, in my opinion, self-righteous whines from un-licensed, un-bonded, inexperienced mold practitioners who do not, or are unwilling to, warranty their work for 10+ years. Yes...there are very few Rosen Ph.D.s out there practicing and performing mold remediation. Like you said, most remediation contractors cannot, and should not, do what does, because they lack experience. Moreover, many IEPs lack experience. This said, where is this all going to lead us? I see turmoil, frustration, finger-pointing, accusations, slanderous comments, and all the other negativity that is well-represented here on IEQuality. I wonder how the public views us? We surely are not doing the Public any favors by not getting along and resolving our problems and differences. For what it is worth On 1/30/07 8:24 AM, " Moffett " wrote: , I am perplexed with your decision as a contractor to assume the professional liability of the IEP. When you disagree with the IEP, you need to bring this fact up to them so you both are on the same page. In my teaching of contractors, I cannot agree or promote your approach. Yes, I recognize you have special training as an IEP, but you have to admit that you are unusual and “you are not” the everyday water, sewage, mold remediation restorer. You have elected to take on two roles and assumed two sets of liability. Respectfully, in this forum or subject, I would appreciate you consider looking outside the box and quit talking about Rosen, Ph.D., and realize there are few Rosen Ph.D.’s, IEP, contractor, out in the market place. Yes, you are special, but , really, some of the things you promote cannot be followed by the everyday, U.S., Canadian, U.K., Aussie, European contractor without increasing their liability. Moffett From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of gary rosen Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 4:49 PM To: iequality Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? I do mold remediation work and many times get a protocol to follow that was written by an IEP. Just about 1 per week. I've never yet followed one and done hundreds of remediations. We replace the protocol with our own. I explain to the client that you don't know what you have to do until the walls are opened or the baseboard is pulled etc. And then you may have to do more or usually much less than the protocol that was proposed. I explain that I am licensed building contractor and the guy writing the protocol has no construction experience and has no mold insurance. And then if they have any questions I asked them to see if the guy who wrote the protocol will provide any type of certification or warranty for the work if his protocol is followed...if if he will refund the owner if a wall is torn down and no mold found. So far that has never happened. Usually the decision is not complex. The person deciding wants: 1.) Low price. 2.) Certificate. 3.) Job done right. 4.) Minimum people to deal with and a single responsible party to guarantee the job. No doubt if someone wrote a good protocol we would follow it. Usually the protocol we see is some kind of pages and pages boilerplate. Never any clearnace criteria. Ours are 1 page with photos of the walls or areas to be remediated and captions underneath as to what we plan to do. In Florida a licensed contractor is 100% responsible for work done no matter how many subcontractors he uses. He provides the warranty. He is the target of the lawsuit or Licensing Board actions. People like how this is structured. Simple. We try to keep it simple. I mentioned earlier that I do much work for attorneys in Florida. We have been running a 1/3 page ad in the Florida Bar News for a long time. Attorneys in our state appear to always recommend that their clients hire someone that takes complete responsibility for a job. They understand the contractor model and how that protects their clients and recommends that model for mold work. I know things are different in other states such as California. But that is how they are here. Rosen, Ph.D. www.Mold-Books.com <http://www.Mold-Books.com> RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? , You said: But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new. The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation. You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn’t the problem, hopefully. Mark Doughty Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A <http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0NTEwOARfcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx?link=ask & amp;sid=396546091> for great tips from Yahoo! Answers <http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0NTEwOARfcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx?link=ask & amp;sid=396546091> users. We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http:/tv.yahoo.com/collections/265%0d%0a> (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http:/tv.yahoo.com/collections/265%0d%0a> Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. <http://pa.yahoo.com/*http:/us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=36035/*http:/music.yahoo.com/unlimited/> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 Thanks, Tony. There's just so much self-serving misinformation and B.S. on this list anymore, I don't have the energy or time to try to refute it all. I've taken a vacation from even trying to. On behalf of the knowledgable and capable members of this list, I thank, and commend you for your efforts to keep things straight. Regards, Chuck Reaney I thought I'd make a comment on the term " bonded " , as in: 'they are not bonded,' This term aggravates me to no end when contractors state (or place on their business cards) licensed and bonded. 1. One, I know of none that are " bonded " for all jobs. 2. Two, most do not provide a bond with a project. 3. Most don't even know what a bond really is. I figure if I'm whining I should at least educate on bonds. Simply speaking, a bond is a contractual surety on delivery - of goods, services, or money. Provided by a 3rd party. The typical bonds are: * Bid * Performance * Payment Bid - This is a bond for not pulling out of the bid process once submitted. Very common. Performance - If the contractor doesn't perform the work, then the bond holder could require that the bonding company get the work performed at the bonding co.'s own cost. Payment - If the work is not completed, then the bonding co. foots the cost of the uncompleted work up to the bond amt. On government and larger private projects, one usually requires a bid bond and then either a performance or a payment bond. I prefer a performance bond because if the contractor low-balled it, the owner is stuck pickling up the difference. If the contractor has a bond claim - they will have very high costs getting another claim through. The bonding company that paid out will be relentless in getting to the contracting companies officers/owners for the losses they incurred. Those contractors that are good and have good assets get lower bond rates and can achieve an economically competitive edge. Bond rates could be say 1-3% of the job cost to 20% on risky ventures. But most contractors do NOT Bond a project and are being deceitful by saying they are " bonded " . Enough said. Tony ....................................................................... " Tony " Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE pH2, LLC 5250 E US 36, Suite 830 Avon, IN 46123 off fax cell 90% of Risk Management is knowing where to place the decimal point...any consultant can give you the other 10%(SM) This message is from pH2. This message and any attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information, and are intended only for the individual or entity identified above as the addressee. If you are not the addressee, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this message and any attachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and attachments (including all copies) and notify the sender by return e-mail or by phone at . Delivery of this message and any attachments to any person other than the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive confidentiality or a privilege. All personal messages express views only of the sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied or distributed without this statement. _____ From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Geyer Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 12:33 PM To: iequality Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? Pat: While your point regarding Rosen has merit, i.e., " I am perplexed with your decision as a contractor to assume the professional liability of the IEP, " there is another aspect of this that is TOTALLY lost on the IEPs that seem to be incredulous with and his methods. First let me tackle this perception of " professional liability " of the IEP. Most IEPs are not licensed by the state that they practice in, they are not bonded, they do not have liabilities that a 10 and 15-yr statute of limitations imbues upon contractors, and they do not warranty their work. These are REALLY big issues that factor into the long-term liability of any remediation project. This " professional liability of the IEP " is nothing like the professional liabilities you, or I, or others, as PEs have, and it is unlike the liabilities that licensed contractors have. In my opinion, professional liability of the IEP is weak. As you and I know, many IEPs lack any substantial knowledge or experience with construction, they have never been a contractor or built something of significance, and have no clue that the mold spec that they need to write needs to be a construction-based (not IH-based) spec. A remediation contractor who follows a nonconstruction-based spec that has errors and omissions from a contracting perspective, opens themselves up to significant long-term liabilities. Based on most of the mold specs that I see written by IEPs, if I were a practicing remediation contractor I would be doing the same thing that is doing, i.e., follow my own spec. Your recommendation that disagreements with an IEP need to be aired, is right on. This needs to be their first step in any dispute, i.e., on site resolution. However, how far should a contractor go, and to what effort, to educate the IEP in the merits of construction? Moreover, I all too often see the IEP acting as the Top Dog in a remediation project, and their protocols and position often stinks from a lack of experience - they are a mangy dog in my opinion and they often get argumentative. In this instance, I feel that the contractor is well-justified going to the client/owner and stating....If you want me to warranty this work and put my insurance on the line, I am going to do it my way. This is 's position AND it may represent the lesser of the liabilities to him and his projects. This concept of the contractor following their own design and spec is nothing new! For those non-construction folks reading this post it is called: Design-Build, and this method of construction has its merits; as well as pitfalls. If done correctly it often saves owners a lot of $$$. All this said, I am not here to say what does is righteous or perfect, but I can support his position, i.e., when the IEPs protocol stinks, use his own. The overly negative comments from IEPs blasting for his opinions and methods are, in my opinion, self-righteous whines from un-licensed, un-bonded, inexperienced mold practitioners who do not, or are unwilling to, warranty their work for 10+ years. Yes...there are very few Rosen Ph.D.s out there practicing and performing mold remediation. Like you said, most remediation contractors cannot, and should not, do what does, because they lack experience. Moreover, many IEPs lack experience. This said, where is this all going to lead us? I see turmoil, frustration, finger-pointing, accusations, slanderous comments, and all the other negativity that is well-represented here on IEQuality. I wonder how the public views us? We surely are not doing the Public any favors by not getting along and resolving our problems and differences. For what it is worth , I am perplexed with your decision as a contractor to assume the professional liability of the IEP. When you disagree with the IEP, you need to bring this fact up to them so you both are on the same page. In my teaching of contractors, I cannot agree or promote your approach. Yes, I recognize you have special training as an IEP, but you have to admit that you are unusual and " you are not " the everyday water, sewage, mold remediation restorer. You have elected to take on two roles and assumed two sets of liability. Respectfully, in this forum or subject, I would appreciate you consider looking outside the box and quit talking about Rosen, Ph.D., and realize there are few Rosen Ph.D.'s, IEP, contractor, out in the market place. Yes, you are special, but , really, some of the things you promote cannot be followed by the everyday, U.S., Canadian, U.K., Aussie, European contractor without increasing their liability. Moffett _____ From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] <mailto:iequality %5d> On Behalf Of gary rosen Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 4:49 PM To: iequality Subject: Re: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? I do mold remediation work and many times get a protocol to follow that was written by an IEP. Just about 1 per week. I've never yet followed one and done hundreds of remediations. We replace the protocol with our own. I explain to the client that you don't know what you have to do until the walls are opened or the baseboard is pulled etc. And then you may have to do more or usually much less than the protocol that was proposed. I explain that I am licensed building contractor and the guy writing the protocol has no construction experience and has no mold insurance. And then if they have any questions I asked them to see if the guy who wrote the protocol will provide any type of certification or warranty for the work if his protocol is followed...if if he will refund the owner if a wall is torn down and no mold found. So far that has never happened. Usually the decision is not complex. The person deciding wants: 1.) Low price. 2.) Certificate. 3.) Job done right. 4.) Minimum people to deal with and a single responsible party to guarantee the job. No doubt if someone wrote a good protocol we would follow it. Usually the protocol we see is some kind of pages and pages boilerplate. Never any clearnace criteria. Ours are 1 page with photos of the walls or areas to be remediated and captions underneath as to what we plan to do. In Florida a licensed contractor is 100% responsible for work done no matter how many subcontractors he uses. He provides the warranty. He is the target of the lawsuit or Licensing Board actions. People like how this is structured. Simple. We try to keep it simple. I mentioned earlier that I do much work for attorneys in Florida. We have been running a 1/3 page ad in the Florida Bar News for a long time. Attorneys in our state appear to always recommend that their clients hire someone that takes complete responsibility for a job. They understand the contractor model and how that protects their clients and recommends that model for mold work. I know things are different in other states such as California. But that is how they are here. Rosen, Ph.D. www.Mold-Books.com <http://www.Mold-Books.com> <http://www.Mold-Books.com> RE: When do you follow a IEP's Protocol? , You said: But most mold remediation work is not brain surgery. You remove water damage drywall, cabinets, carpets ... and replace with new. The home owner can verify that the work is done properly. Or you can document the work with picturesd during the remediation. You missed the most important part, the part about fine cleaning: which is not uncommon for contractors, and why someone may want an IEP. The stuff you can see isn't the problem, hopefully. Mark Doughty _____ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q & A <http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9 TAzM5NjU0N TEwOAR fcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF 90YWcx?link=ask & sid =39654 6091> <http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9 TAzM5NjU0N TEwOAR fcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF 90YWcx?link=ask & amp ;sid=3 96546091> for great tips from Yahoo! Answers <http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9 TAzM5NjU0N TEwOAR fcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF 90YWcx?link=ask & sid =39654 6091> <http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/index;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9 TAzM5NjU0N TEwOAR fcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF 90YWcx?link=ask & amp ;sid=3 96546091> users. _____ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http:/tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 % 0d%0a> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http:/tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 % 0d%0a> (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http:/tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 % 0d%0a> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http:/tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 % 0d%0a> _____ Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. <http://pa.yahoo.com/*http:/us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=36035/*http:/music.ya h oo.com /unlimited/> <http://pa.yahoo.com/*http:/us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=36035/*http:/music.ya h oo.com /unlimited/> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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