Re: Debating Guns, Germs and Steel

[Guest guest]

> Hi José ,

....

** Hi Ron:

> As you have

> noticed -- I am the anti- in terms of my list etiquette. LOL

>

** I disagree. As far as I can see, you are a true gentleman, Ron.

....

>

> Several years ago I read a book called _Brazil_ which was written

by

> Updike who is considered to be one of the great literary talents

here in the

> states. I rarely read his stuff because I find his subject

material to be

> depressing but he is without a doubt a very fine writer of

beautiful prose.

> I learned much about your country from his book...

** I have heard about the book, and read excerpts, but not long

enough to judge its merits. Reviewers, however, weren't unanimous in

their appraisal. Some thought Updike wrote about his American idea of

Brazil, not about a real country.

....

> It was a tremendous contrast for my young mind to see such a

> different way of life.

.... >> We flew almost immediately from there to a large city which I

am

> completely embarrassed to say I can no longer recall the name of.

** It could have been Belém? I sense the same huge contrast whenever

I leave Rio for the countryside.

> > Don't tell me you only ate American-style food.

>

> Oh yes. Lots and lots of spaghetti. Zero Brazilian food except for

> bananas. We brought all of our own food with us. Lots of cans of

horrible

> tasting things.

** This is a shame, isn't it? Do you have any idea why you brought

all the food with you? That was not very practical, in the first

place, and then not very economical. Of course, it was not your

fault, but doesn't it look offensive to the natives when you bring

your own food, as if what they were eating were poison or of poor

quality? You know the adage - When in Rome, do as the Romans: eat

local food.

>>> I didn't eat bananas for years after coming back

> because the ones that come to the US were just a pale imitation of

the real

> thing.

** When I was in the USA (West Coast) in the early eighties, I

noticed that there was only one kind of banana in the shops. And I

know at least six or seven different kinds here, with different

sizes, tastes, different ways to be eaten (some have to be cooked, I

think you call these plantain), different therapeutic uses, etc...

>

.....>

> > So many questions... Again I have inserted a digression in your

> > piece. This is just like me, you know. Sorry.

>

> I enjoyed it as I wanted to tell you my story anyway.

** Thank you for sharing it with me. The pleasure was mine. If you

come another time, maybe you'd like to visit the South. Not the big

cities, which can be violent, but the countryside, which is beautiful

and picturesque, and the small towns, where life sems to have stopped

in time.

> Now I'm about to have to reduce my email time as I will be taking a

class

> all day for the next three days. I will happily respond should you

choose

> to continue the conversation but it might be a little while.

>

> Ron

** If this conversation is off-topic, we could go on with it off-

list.

Best wishes,

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>Yeah, " modern intelligence " really does seem to be a " modern " thing.

>No one is really sure what is going on, but people are getting higher

>and higher scores on IQ tests (this at a time when everyone is thinking

>the school system S***s!).

Do you have any references for this? Because my understanding (though I

have no refs handy myself) is that though 100 is calibrated as average each

year, controlling for cultural awareness, there's been a slight downward

drift. Or do you mean that the high end is getting higher?

-

[Guest guest]

Ron-

>Her viewpoint appears to be that intelligence manifests primarily in people

>with Asperger's type symptoms.

People tend to see the world through the lens of themselves. I'm not

immune to this myself, so I'm hardly sending an insult Heidi's way, but

it's something to be aware of.

>This kind of focused brilliance that she

>knows so well and sees in her community and then back-applies to

>historically famous intellects is certainly one type of intelligence. What

>I'm trying to show, rather ineptly as the ideas are not yet fully formed, is

>that intelligence is increasing dramatically even in those who don't have

>the particular dysfunctions of the Aspies.

There are obviously a number of different mechanisms by which various forms

of intelligence are developed and raised. Studies of Ashkenazi (sp?) Jews

demonstrate this, as their environment in the middle ages selected very

strongly for some very specific forms of intelligence. And of course

there's all sorts of other data out there.

-

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>[Heidi] I kind of doubt it is ever dominant, even in our society where

>it's very common. The people who are rather Aspergerish

>are often called geeks and nerds by the more " typical " folk,

>and often that isn't meant in a nice way!

The thing is, geeks and nerds are generally extremely social -- with other

geeks and nerds. Think about it. What does an extremely intelligent kid

who reads a lot, maybe plays D & D and reads comics, maybe programs, plays

lots of computer games, etc., have in common to talk about with the average

high school football player?

-

[Guest guest]

>Do you have any references for this? Because my understanding (though I

>have no refs handy myself) is that though 100 is calibrated as average each

>year, controlling for cultural awareness, there's been a slight downward

>drift. Or do you mean that the high end is getting higher?

>

>

>-

I was reading about it a few years ago, and heard it again on Science Friday

more

recently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

The Flynn effect is the continued year-on-year rise of

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ>IQ test scores, an effect seen in all parts of

the world, although at greatly varying rates. It is named after

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand>New Zealand

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_scientist>political scientist

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/_R._Flynn> R. Flynn, its discoverer. The

average rate of rise seems to be around three IQ points per decade. Attempted

explanations have included improved nutrition, a trend towards smaller families,

better education, greater environmental complexity, and

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis>heterosis (Mingroni, 2004).

The Flynn effect is a perplexing phenomenon for those who believe that IQ tests

represent a true measure of human

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence>intelligence, as it would suggest

that people today are in general considerably more intelligent than those of

previous generations. Flynn himself does not believe this to be the case. It is

conceivable that something about modern society (the greater need for abstract

thinking, presence of computers, more visually-oriented culture) is responsible.

Better <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrition>nutrition has been proposed as a

factor. However, there is evidence from

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia>Scandinavian countries that IQ scores

rose even more, 20 points per generation, following the austerity of occupation

during <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II>World War II. Another possible

explanation is that people are maturing faster, so that, for example, a ten year

old today may have the mental age that a twelve year old had sixty years ago,

although this may also be ultimately due to nutrition.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

>>[Heidi] I kind of doubt it is ever dominant, even in our society where

>>it's very common. The people who are rather Aspergerish

>>are often called geeks and nerds by the more " typical " folk,

>>and often that isn't meant in a nice way!

>

>The thing is, geeks and nerds are generally extremely social -- with other

>geeks and nerds. Think about it. What does an extremely intelligent kid

>who reads a lot, maybe plays D & D and reads comics, maybe programs, plays

>lots of computer games, etc., have in common to talk about with the average

>high school football player?

>

>-

Right, and I've seen that a lot, esp. in the programmer conventions.

I don't believe that Aspies are " unsocial " ... just " differently

social " . And in high school especially, they learn to keep their mouths

shut until they reach the safety of chess or computer club.

As for Asperger folks being more intelligent, when I originally

said that it was in reference to IQ tests and University mathematics,

which, IMO, are rather tilted in favor of the kind of thinking Asperger folks

tend to

be good at (of, by, and for Aspies!). Some IQ researchers have

commented on this too ... IQ tests don't measure, for instance,

how well you can organize your classmates or coerce

your teacher or drive a car or a thousand other daily routines that humans

use their " intelligence " for. So, one reason for higher IQ tests

MIGHT be that there are more Aspies than there were, and therefore

more people who excel at that kind of testing.

But in the original discussion, it was about why women didn't go

into math more ... and one simple explanation for that (again, IMO) is

that there are just fewer women Aspies. Ditto for programming.

Most " typical " people I meet just don't like the concept of sitting

and doing math (or programming) for hours and hours at a

stretch and would go nuts doing it for a living, but Aspies tend to

enjoy it and find it fun. And find it fun to discuss math and programming

with other people, but only the Aspies find it fun to discuss back,

usually.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

--- In , Idol <Idol@c...>

wrote:

> Ron-

>

> >Her viewpoint appears to be that intelligence manifests primarily

in people

> >with Asperger's type symptoms.

>

> People tend to see the world through the lens of themselves. I'm

not

> immune to this myself, so I'm hardly sending an insult Heidi's

way, but

> it's something to be aware of.

>

> >This kind of focused brilliance that she

> >knows so well and sees in her community and then back-applies to

> >historically famous intellects is certainly one type of

intelligence. What

> >I'm trying to show, rather ineptly as the ideas are not yet fully

formed, is

> >that intelligence is increasing dramatically even in those who

don't have

> >the particular dysfunctions of the Aspies.

>

> There are obviously a number of different mechanisms by which

various forms

> of intelligence are developed and raised. Studies of Ashkenazi

(sp?) Jews

> demonstrate this, as their environment in the middle ages selected

very

> strongly for some very specific forms of intelligence. And of

course

> there's all sorts of other data out there.

>

>

>

> -

An added twist on this is that there are at least 9 forms of

intelligence according to Gardner (of Yale or Princeton)

Frames of Mind: The Theory of Multiple Intelligences

Connie H

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>Right, and I've seen that a lot, esp. in the programmer conventions.

>I don't believe that Aspies are " unsocial " ... just " differently

>social " . And in high school especially, they learn to keep their mouths

>shut until they reach the safety of chess or computer club.

Isn't that just moving the goalposts, though? You're assuming that lots of

people -- particularly " nerds " and " geeks " , particularly smart kids -- are

Aspies because you connect Asperger's to gluten and because you see

everything through the lens (or perhaps I should say fog) of gluten. As a

minor version of autism, Asperger's involves reduced

sociability. (Presumably mirror neuron impairment is involved, though at

this point that's still speculation.) But then when I point out that nerds

and geeks are generally quite social, just not with mainstream populations

they have nothing in common with, you turn around and say, well, they're

very social after all, just differently so.

I guess we could debate what constitutes " differently social " until the

cows come home, but the fact is that extremely intelligent children -- your

nerds and geeks -- generally have great difficulty fitting in with

average-intelligence children (partly because they have so little in

common, partly because average-intelligence children reject them, often

quite violently) and so don't learn many of the socialization lessons that

most children do. One reason for that is their " different " sociability --

different interests, more emphasis on intellectual and sometimes artistic

endeavors, etc. Another is that there are typically few nerds and geeks in

a community relative to the vast horde of " average " kids, so there simply

aren't enough nerds and geeks to form a discrete nerd-and-geek society, so

to speak, that's as viable as the parallel mainstream community.

-

[Guest guest]

>Heidi-

>

>Isn't that just moving the goalposts, though? You're assuming that lots of

>people -- particularly " nerds " and " geeks " , particularly smart kids -- are

>Aspies because you connect Asperger's to gluten and because you see

>everything through the lens (or perhaps I should say fog) of gluten. As a

>minor version of autism, Asperger's involves reduced

>sociability. (Presumably mirror neuron impairment is involved, though at

>this point that's still speculation.) But then when I point out that nerds

>and geeks are generally quite social, just not with mainstream populations

>they have nothing in common with, you turn around and say, well, they're

>very social after all, just differently so.

It might be moving the goalposts, but I'm not the one doing the

research, just reading it. In the popular magazines, Asperger's is

defined as primarily a social disorder. But in the more detailed

research, it is defined as a difference in processing, and Aspies

are noted for socializing well with each other. Which I THINK is what

you just said and what I was saying? I'm not sure what the disagreement is?

>I guess we could debate what constitutes " differently social " until the

>cows come home, but the fact is that extremely intelligent children -- your

>nerds and geeks -- generally have great difficulty fitting in with

>average-intelligence children (partly because they have so little in

>common, partly because average-intelligence children reject them, often

>quite violently) and so don't learn many of the socialization lessons that

>most children do. One reason for that is their " different " sociability --

>different interests, more emphasis on intellectual and sometimes artistic

>endeavors, etc. Another is that there are typically few nerds and geeks in

>a community relative to the vast horde of " average " kids, so there simply

>aren't enough nerds and geeks to form a discrete nerd-and-geek society, so

>to speak, that's as viable as the parallel mainstream community.

I just started Temple Grandin's " Thinking in Pictures " which goes into

great depths as to just HOW different the autistic brain is. I don't think

I'm anywhere as " different " as she is, but she makes the point far

better than I ever could. But yeah, I basically agree with what

you just said: there aren't enough nerds/geeks to form a community,

at least there weren't in the past.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

On 8/5/05, RBJR <rbjr@...> wrote:

> I've always been fascinated by the fact that in one of the most powerful

> myths of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic culture God rejected the plant

> offering

> that Cain brought to him and accepted the meat offering of Abel. Then the

> damn grain eater goes and kills the meat eater. Kind of reminds me of Dean

> Ornish. But, anyway, here you have the basic conflict of the times --

> hunter gatherer vs agriculturist -- being played out in one of the first

> stories in the Bible.

Actually that would be pastoralist versus agriculture, having already

left the gathering lifestyle of Eden.

You should also note that Cain built the first city. Thus,

agriculture was responsible for " civilization. "

Chris

--

Want the other side of the cholesterol story?

Find out what your doctor isn't telling you:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>Which I THINK is what

>you just said and what I was saying? I'm not sure what the disagreement is?

You seem to be suggesting that because nerds and geeks don't socialize well

with average kids (and adults), Asperger's is involved. I'm saying that

intelligence itself interferes with socializing with those average types,

because intelligent kids are shunned, generally have very different

interests from average kids, and usually have few fellow intelligent kids

with which to associate.

>But yeah, I basically agree with what

>you just said: there aren't enough nerds/geeks to form a community,

>at least there weren't in the past.

Well, one big difference for some people in the recent past is the

existence of gifted-and-talented type classes and programs. And of course

some smart kids get to go to smart kid school. But mostly, being smart is

more than sufficient to make one an outcast. Brain abnormalities aren't

necessary.

-

[Guest guest]

>

>

> >Which I THINK is what

> >you just said and what I was saying? I'm not sure what the disagreement is?

>

>You seem to be suggesting that because nerds and geeks don't socialize well

>with average kids (and adults), Asperger's is involved. I'm saying that

>intelligence itself interferes with socializing with those average types,

>because intelligent kids are shunned, generally have very different

>interests from average kids, and usually have few fellow intelligent kids

>with which to associate.

I don't disagree with that. " Intelligence " and " Asperger's " are not

the same thing, and intelligent kids often feel isolated

just because the other kids seem stupid. OTOH some intelligent

kids with very good social skills use their intelligence to

gain a large following of admirers. Our class prez was like

that when I was in high school.

> Well, one big difference for some people in the recent past is the

>existence of gifted-and-talented type classes and programs. And of course

>some smart kids get to go to smart kid school. But mostly, being smart is

>more than sufficient to make one an outcast. Brain abnormalities aren't

>necessary.

I agree.

-- Heidi

>