Re: Debating Guns, Germs and Steel

[Guest guest]

On 8/3/05, RBJR <rbjr@...> wrote:

> I was reading one of my favorite blogs and ran across this posting by Jane

> Galt www.janegalt.net . I've seen a fair amount of reference to

> Diamond here on the list and I thought you all might like to see it.

> Formatting is a little hard as I'm having to work with text only.

>

> I don't have time to play with this post/thread but I'll enjoy any

> discussion that may ensue.

>

> Ron

Actually the debate about Diamond, such as it was, occurred over on NT_Politics.

[Guest guest]

>I don't have time to play with this post/thread but I'll enjoy any

>discussion that may ensue.

>

>Ron

Personally I love Diamond, but he leaves out my OWN personal

candidate for why Europe won the technology wars: Aspergers!

If you look at the individuals who did things like, oh, invent helicopters

or submarines or nuclear fission or fuel the Silicon revolution, you will

find that most of them have Asperger's syndrome. Looking historically,

it seems fairly clear that folks like Jefferson, Newton, Da Vinci

and others had the same syndrome, or something a lot like it. These are the

folks who will lock themselves away for days to solve some intricate

problem, and would rather play with numbers than go to parties any day.

Now Asperger's doesn't strike just *anywhere* ... it seems to be

related to diet or something else in the environment. A whole mess

of Aspies crop up at one time in one place (currently, in Silicon Valley, where

1 in 50

kids is autistic). THOSE are your inventors. If society doesn't put

them to death as " witches " , then they invent. So the question is,

what causes a crop of Aspies to appear in history?

I suspect the culprit is diet+genes, and of course I think the main culprit in

the current crop of Aspies is gluten, though others think it's mercury or

something else. But it's something doesn't address at all. The average

human being simply does NOT play around with inventing all day ... he has

better things to do, like go drinking with his buddies or finding another wife.

He uses his intelligence to buy social status. Aspies don't ... they don't care

about social status, they'd rather putter around in the lab.

So figure out what makes people turn into Aspies and you can figure

out what creates technological progress!

also doesn't address the issue of haplotypes. Smallpox decimated

the Indians partly because they were descended from a very small number

of ancestors, so there wasn't a lot of genetic diversity. Europeans had, by

that time, intermingled all over the place (Mongol invasions, the

Crusades, Vikings, Romans, etc.). But the Indians were all descended from a

small

group that crossed over the Bering strait, or so it is surmised.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>

> >I don't have time to play with this post/thread but I'll enjoy any

> >discussion that may ensue.

> >

> >Ron

>

> Personally I love Diamond, but he leaves out my OWN personal

> candidate for why Europe won the technology wars: Aspergers!

>

> If you look at the individuals who did things like, oh, invent

helicopters

> or submarines or nuclear fission or fuel the Silicon revolution,

you will

> find that most of them have Asperger's syndrome. Looking

historically,

> it seems fairly clear that folks like Jefferson, Newton, Da

Vinci

> and others had the same syndrome, or something a lot like it.

These are the

> folks who will lock themselves away for days to solve some

intricate

> problem, and would rather play with numbers than go to parties any

day.

>

> Now Asperger's doesn't strike just *anywhere* ... it seems to be

> related to diet or something else in the environment. A whole mess

> of Aspies crop up at one time in one place (currently, in Silicon

Valley, where 1 in 50

> kids is autistic). THOSE are your inventors. If society doesn't put

> them to death as " witches " , then they invent. So the question is,

> what causes a crop of Aspies to appear in history?

>

> I suspect the culprit is diet+genes, and of course I think the

main culprit in

> the current crop of Aspies is gluten, though others think it's

mercury or

> something else. But it's something doesn't address at all.

The average

> human being simply does NOT play around with inventing all day ...

he has

> better things to do, like go drinking with his buddies or finding

another wife.

> He uses his intelligence to buy social status. Aspies don't ...

they don't care

> about social status, they'd rather putter around in the lab.

>

> So figure out what makes people turn into Aspies and you can figure

> out what creates technological progress!

>

> also doesn't address the issue of haplotypes. Smallpox

decimated

> the Indians partly because they were descended from a very small

number

> of ancestors, so there wasn't a lot of genetic diversity.

Europeans had, by

> that time, intermingled all over the place (Mongol invasions, the

> Crusades, Vikings, Romans, etc.). But the Indians were all

descended from a small

> group that crossed over the Bering strait, or so it is surmised.

>

>

> Heidi Jean

Have you read Ed Schlain's book The Alphabet versus the Goddess? He

looks at the development of alphabetic writing systems - all from

the Fertile Crescent/wheat eating peoples. I'd love to know what

you all think of this!

Connie H.

[Guest guest]

>Have you read Ed Schlain's book The Alphabet versus the Goddess? He

>looks at the development of alphabetic writing systems - all from

>the Fertile Crescent/wheat eating peoples. I'd love to know what

>you all think of this!

>

>Connie H.

I haven't read it, but basically the two centers of writing and " civilization "

--

the Middle East and China -- were and are the centers of wheat eating.

Until North America started growing *really* high gluten wheat ...

and then North America started becoming the center of the technological

revolution. Someday some historian will have a field day with it.

Speaking as a " recovering Aspie " who REALLY reacts to both gluten

and casein and comes from a long line of folks who do the same,

I can really see the connection. The best treatment of the issues I've

found though, is in a fiction book " A Fire Upon the Deep " , which isn't

about Asperger's but describes it perfectly (a class of " techie slaves "

who just LOVE to work!). I can work so much better " under the

influence " !

The other big center of civilization though, is the Mayan culture. It

never got beyond a certain level though, and it was highly centered

on corn which might have some of the same effects for some

people.

Virtually ALL the historians though link " civilization " to " grain " , for

various reasons. is hardly the first to make that connection.

Actually the civilizations themselves often did too, revering some

god or goddess who gave them grain and thus founded their

nation. Once you have grain, you have " treasure " and the ability

to settle down, and a way to feed an army. No one much has

talked about the *mental* effects of grain until recently, when

ergot started coming under investigation. Now that more researchers

are finding that some grains lead to major mental disturbances

though, you'll see more people linking grain to other historical

anomolies.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Hi Heidi,

> Personally I love Diamond, but he leaves out my OWN personal

> candidate for why Europe won the technology wars: Aspergers!

>

Was thinking about this a little bit yesterday and realized that even though

all of us here in this group consider the start of the grain culture to be

the death of healthy eating the simple fact is that it was also the

beginning of the largest and most rapid expansion of intelligence in

history. And that expansion doesn't seem be abating. And, yes, I've read a

reasonable amount of material suggesting various reasons for that but if you

step way, way back and take the very long view the primary stimulus for all

of it was the invention of grain.

Ron

[Guest guest]

> Actually the civilizations themselves often did too, revering some

> god or goddess who gave them grain and thus founded their

> nation. Once you have grain, you have " treasure " and the ability

> to settle down, and a way to feed an army.

I've always been fascinated by the fact that in one of the most powerful

myths of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic culture God rejected the plant offering

that Cain brought to him and accepted the meat offering of Abel. Then the

damn grain eater goes and kills the meat eater. Kind of reminds me of Dean

Ornish. But, anyway, here you have the basic conflict of the times --

hunter gatherer vs agriculturist -- being played out in one of the first

stories in the Bible.

Ron

[Guest guest]

> > Actually the civilizations themselves often did too, revering some

> > god or goddess who gave them grain and thus founded their

> > nation. Once you have grain, you have " treasure " and the ability

> > to settle down, and a way to feed an army.

>

> I've always been fascinated by the fact that in one of the most

powerful

> myths of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic culture God rejected the plant

offering

> that Cain brought to him and accepted the meat offering of Abel.

Then the

> damn grain eater goes and kills the meat eater. Kind of reminds me

of

Dean

> Ornish. But, anyway, here you have the basic conflict of the times

--

> hunter gatherer vs agriculturist -- being played out in one of the

first

> stories in the Bible.

>

> Ron

Yeah. I never really framed the conflict in those terms until

recently--since learning about WAPF, actually.

I have always wondered what it was about Cain's offering that made

God reject it/Cain. Someone said that it was because it was a

" bloodless " offering, and " the wages of sin is death " . Some

grain/flour offerings are spelled out in the Old Testament, but

perhaps this occasion was a time when a grain offering was

inappropriate. (Actually, I'm not sure it was a " grain " offering,

per se. It might have been other produce from Cain's gardens. The

Pharisees tithed even the mint in their garden, but I don't recall

God's specifically calling for an offering of fruits and vegetables.)

Another angle I have considered is that God is offended when His

people complain. There is some discussion of that when the 40 years

in the wilderness is mentioned. The farmers I know most intimately

are super-chronic complainers...to put it mildly. It's like they

can't open their mouth without a stream of complaints and curses (in

the pure sense of the term) pouring forth.

OTOH, people who are good managers of cattle or other animals realize

the value of maintaining a good demeanor around the animals. They

can pick up if someone is angry or upset, and it also upsets them.

The cattle will be harder to manage if the people are exhibiting bad

temper.

There was even an article in a recent issue of Stockman Grassfarmer

where the author talked about how harmful it can be for business if a

farmer's direct customers receive an earful about how hard life has

been raising the food that the customer is buying. He makes an

amusing comparison to how diners would feel if they were at a fine

restaurant and the maitre'd and waiters spent their time complaining

about everything to the diners. How many diners would enjoy their

meal and return?

He made the point that you probably wouldn't hurt your business as

much if you can tell the stories about problems after enough time had

passed that you could relate it with humor and talk about how the

problems were overcome.

Another angle is that Cain was probably some kind of a vegetarian,

and he probably was offended by Able's lifestyle. You know how

violent those vegetarians can be--although their PR is to the

contrary! ;-)

And in Genesis, ph tells his family that the Egyptians " despise "

keepers of herds. That's one reason he instructs them how to respond

in their interview with Pharoah, so he will assign them to live in

the land of Goshen, the best part of the land, which was (IIRC) still

green even during the 7 years of drought.

I wonder if Able's nature was probably so much more innocent and

ungrasping that he didn't see it coming when Cain initiated the

encounter in the field....

Did you ever notice how many Biblical patriarchs, before they came

into their positions of power, were responsible for the welfare of

animals?

[Guest guest]

> Hi Heidi,

>

> > Personally I love Diamond, but he leaves out my OWN personal

> > candidate for why Europe won the technology wars: Aspergers!

> >

>

> Was thinking about this a little bit yesterday and realized that

even though

> all of us here in this group consider the start of the grain

culture to be

> the death of healthy eating the simple fact is that it was also the

> beginning of the largest and most rapid expansion of intelligence in

> history. And that expansion doesn't seem be abating. And, yes,

I've read a

> reasonable amount of material suggesting various reasons for that

but if you

> step way, way back and take the very long view the primary stimulus

for all

> of it was the invention of grain.

>

> Ron

I always hate to say that people who don't carry the

label " civilized " are less intelligent than others.

Was it Mark Twain who said, " Everyone is ignorant. Just about

different subjects " ? (something like that)

I think what the mass cultivation of grain did was to encourage

division of labor and interdependence among people. I think it also

created the need for people to guard the storehouse and parse out the

supplies, instead of each family managing its own resources and

paying the price for their own bad decisions, or reaping the rewards

of their own good decisions.

I think it caused the development of class structure in society.

And, I'm sorry to say, I think it led to the abuse of power by the

people who held the power--perhaps not at first, but eventually.

When men set up institutions (such as governing bodies, corporations,

institutions of higher education, and extension services, for

example), and the people running them lose their ability to care

about the long-term impact of their decisions and policies, then we

end up with situations like we have today. I'm talking about our

health problems. I'm talking about the political considerations that

caused the food pyramid to even be created in the first place. I'm

talking about how hard it is now to get the word out to people about

how their health need not be dependent on their access to doctors and

drugs, but upon their access to healthy, nutrient-dense food.

I'm preaching the choir, here, I know.

I'm not going to say that I have a better method of running the

world. I'm a product of modern, computerized America, myself. I'm

adapted to this sort of life. I enjoy being a computer geek and

spending all day playing with computers.

But I'm afraid we will lose something priceless if we lose small

farmers who know about and care about the land and are able to do

productive things with it, and still keep the land and their animals

healthy. We're pretty darn close to having lost that anyway.

[Guest guest]

>And, yes, I've read a

>reasonable amount of material suggesting various reasons for that but if you

>step way, way back and take the very long view the primary stimulus for all

>of it was the invention of grain.

>

>Ron

Yeah, it is amazing. Actually a similar thing happened further back ... some

folks think that the reason our hominid ancestors could grow a bigger

brain was the invention of meat eating, esp. marrow, and cooking.

Chimps love meat, but it takes them forever to chew it. A chimp

spends about 6 hours a day chewing, IIRC, and has these HUGE

jawbones to do it. Eating marrow was an easy, high calorie meal,

and the early hominids probably got it by following predators (who

couldn't crack the big bones). That and learning to cook, weave

baskets and gather ... you get this whole cascade of events which

boil down to *more calories* to support this big ol' brain. Brains

are high-calorie items. (Also marrow has the right kind of fat to

build brains ...).

Now we have small jawbones, small teeth ... and eat mostly cooked

or soft foods. And rely on big brains and a big social network

to keep the food supplied, even in the pre-grain tribes.

(Which reminds me, there is a new show, " going tribal " on Discover,

starting next Tuesday. A guy visits various tribes and tries out

their customs. Likely the more picturesque ones, like body

piercing, but it might be interesting!).

What gets me about Asperger's though is: if and when they find

out what *causes* it, and they also realize how involved it

is with technological success, how will people handle that? One

researcher has a device to make people " temporarily Autistic "

which he'd like to make into a pill, so people can be more

creative when they want. In " A Fire Upon the Deep " , when

they find out the cause of the " affliction " , the afflicted people

don't necessarily want to be cured, which is also happening

with Asperger's. And in the book, of course the " owners "

of these hardworking techies don't want them cured either!

India, btw, has what they call an " epidemic " of celiac at the

moment. They have been eating wheat a long time, but

probably not as much as they are getting right now. I worked

with some Indian programmers, and they were very, very

Aspergerish! Their move to a Western diet seems to be

affecting them pretty much like it did the West, including

more diabetes etc.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Again -- sorry for the break in communication.

Interesting post.

More below.

>

> > > Actually the civilizations themselves often did too, revering some

> > > god or goddess who gave them grain and thus founded their

> > > nation. Once you have grain, you have " treasure " and the ability

> > > to settle down, and a way to feed an army.

> >

> > I've always been fascinated by the fact that in one of the most

> powerful

> > myths of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic culture God rejected the plant

> offering

> > that Cain brought to him and accepted the meat offering of Abel.

> Then the

> > damn grain eater goes and kills the meat eater. Kind of reminds me

> of

> Dean

> > Ornish. But, anyway, here you have the basic conflict of the times

> --

> > hunter gatherer vs agriculturist -- being played out in one of the

> first

> > stories in the Bible.

> >

> > Ron

>

> Yeah. I never really framed the conflict in those terms until

> recently--since learning about WAPF, actually.

>

> I have always wondered what it was about Cain's offering that made

> God reject it/Cain.

I had always wondered that too until I came to understand in the mythical

sense. Cain and Abel represented the competing paradigms of the time and by

ascribing meat eating as the will of God it fully authorized and made animal

culture necessary within an environment of other cultures that were doing

the grain/vegetable thing. And one thing that we know about humans is our

propensity to kill anything that is different than us. Seems to be a

fundamental characteristic. So all of those properties were illustrated in

one very short episode in Genesis.

> Someone said that it was because it was a

> " bloodless " offering, and " the wages of sin is death " .

Pure conjecture. The bible is silent on the subject.

> Some

> grain/flour offerings are spelled out in the Old Testament, but

> perhaps this occasion was a time when a grain offering was

> inappropriate. (Actually, I'm not sure it was a " grain " offering,

> per se. It might have been other produce from Cain's gardens. The

> Pharisees tithed even the mint in their garden, but I don't recall

> God's specifically calling for an offering of fruits and vegetables.)

Here's a link to the story. It's pretty straightforward and says nothing

about varieties of food or gives any explanation for motive.

http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/cain.html

One of the more powerful models that I ever come across for the construction

of the Old Testament was written by a Jewish scholar who theorized (with

pretty good archaeological and anthropological evidence I thought) that each

story in the bible that was written prior to the Maccabean times was

actually an independent oral story that had been passed down from the

various tribes that later became the Jewish nation. They may or may not

have occurred at all but if they did they took place over various times that

don't correspond to the apparent chronology of the Bible itself. So the

Cain and Abel story may have been 10,000 years old and any later discussion

of grain offerings would have happened many thousands of years later.

>

> Another angle I have considered is that God is offended when His

> people complain. There is some discussion of that when the 40 years

> in the wilderness is mentioned. The farmers I know most intimately

> are super-chronic complainers...to put it mildly. It's like they

> can't open their mouth without a stream of complaints and curses (in

> the pure sense of the term) pouring forth.

The complaints occurred after the rejection, though. Not sure how this

applies.

>

> OTOH, people who are good managers of cattle or other animals realize

> the value of maintaining a good demeanor around the animals. They

> can pick up if someone is angry or upset, and it also upsets them.

> The cattle will be harder to manage if the people are exhibiting bad

> temper.

Interesting.

> I wonder if Able's nature was probably so much more innocent and

> ungrasping that he didn't see it coming when Cain initiated the

> encounter in the field....

I suspect that was true.

>

> Did you ever notice how many Biblical patriarchs, before they came

> into their positions of power, were responsible for the welfare of

> animals?

>

My guess is that it was intentional. When the books of the Old Testament

were finally assembled the people in charge of that assemblage were creating

a description of the orthodox way of life at the time. I can't recall when

this was supposed to have originally begun to happen. 600 BC? Maybe later?

What strikes me most is the fact that the Jewish nation still survives as a

coherent unit despite its various dispersals and re-groupings. Perhaps a

religion that makes meat eating not only desired but necessary is

evolutionarily successful?

Ron

[Guest guest]

Hi Heidi,

> Yeah, it is amazing. Actually a similar thing happened

> further back ... some

> folks think that the reason our hominid ancestors could grow a bigger

> brain was the invention of meat eating, esp. marrow, and cooking.

Huh. Interesting. I'd heard another theory that the cause was a shift to

the eating of fish and shellfish out of the lakes in Northeast Africa. The

high level of omega-3's supposedly caused the brain to jump in size. Given

that much of it is made out of DHA that model makes some sense.

> What gets me about Asperger's though is: if and when they find

> out what *causes* it, and they also realize how involved it

> is with technological success, how will people handle that? One

> researcher has a device to make people " temporarily Autistic "

> which he'd like to make into a pill, so people can be more

> creative when they want. In " A Fire Upon the Deep " , when

> they find out the cause of the " affliction " , the afflicted people

> don't necessarily want to be cured, which is also happening

> with Asperger's. And in the book, of course the " owners "

> of these hardworking techies don't want them cured either!

Yes. I'm a little bit less optimistic about the possibility that our culture

is going to shift back to anything other than grain intensive eating and I'm

a little bit skeptical about the viewpoint that modern civilization will

collapse due to failure to thrive. I expect that humans are in the throes

of a major evolutionary hit and the gluten tolerant are going to be the

survivors. There's just too much advantage to eating grain if you can

actually do it. Who knows?

The notion of giving my intelligence for not having suffered a life of

digestive distress is a disturbing one. If I'd had to pick I guess I'd want

just enough gluten to distort my brain properly then switch to raw milk and

beef for the rest of my life. LOL

Ron

[Guest guest]

> Yes. I'm a little bit less optimistic about the possibility that our

culture

> is going to shift back to anything other than grain intensive eating

....

> Ron

This could be true, but just the other day I heard on the TV news that,

at least in Brazil, an important nutritional shift is on its way, in

other words, people are eating much less rice, which is so to say our

staple food, now than say five years ago, and adding many different

foods to their diets, in the guise of new vegetables and proteins. So,

maybe there is still some hope.

JC

[Guest guest]

>

Ron:

>Huh. Interesting. I'd heard another theory that the cause was a shift to

>the eating of fish and shellfish out of the lakes in Northeast Africa. The

>high level of omega-3's supposedly caused the brain to jump in size. Given

>that much of it is made out of DHA that model makes some sense.

That makes sense too. I kinda like the " aquatic ape " theory also (being a water

sort of person myself ...).

>Yes. I'm a little bit less optimistic about the possibility that our culture

>is going to shift back to anything other than grain intensive eating and I'm

>a little bit skeptical about the viewpoint that modern civilization will

>collapse due to failure to thrive. I expect that humans are in the throes

>of a major evolutionary hit and the gluten tolerant are going to be the

>survivors. There's just too much advantage to eating grain if you can

>actually do it. Who knows?

Oh, that's depressing.

>The notion of giving my intelligence for not having suffered a life of

>digestive distress is a disturbing one. If I'd had to pick I guess I'd want

>just enough gluten to distort my brain properly then switch to raw milk and

>beef for the rest of my life. LOL

Yeah, I could imagine a sci-fi scenario something like that. Actually

might end up being real life, if the folks looking for drugs that

" mimic autism " have their way. I'm not sure intelligence is the issue

though. There was a king in Korea who, by all accounts, was VERY

intelligent and invented their alphabet. Another very intelligent king

invented much of the Thai culture. Now those two cultures are not

ones noted for Asperger's. And Diamond noted that the

tribal cultures he dealt with had amazingly intelligent people in them.

What is different about Asperger's is, maybe, not so much raw

intelligence as *focus*. I mean, no " normal " human works 20 hours

straight on a problem, or focuses narrowly on one tiny interest

for years at a time. The kings in question were highly motivated to

come up with a solution to a problem, and probably oursourced

the problem to a lot of smart advisors who were similarly motivated,

and so they solved the problem. Folks like Newton and Turing though,

just worked and worked on problems for no particular reason, problems

that were often or mainly theoretical and had no obviously useful

application. A smart non-Aspie can solve problems as needed,

but if he's sitting on a South Seas island with plenty of food, is not

likely to bother with inventing calculus. A smart Aspie, with plenty

of food and servants etc., will invent calculus just because it

seems like an interesting thing to do.

(that's just me speculating .. )

>

>----------

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

There was a king in Korea who, by all accounts, was VERY

> intelligent and invented their alphabet. Another very intelligent

king

> invented much of the Thai culture. Now those two cultures are not

> ones noted for Asperger's. And Diamond noted that the

> tribal cultures he dealt with had amazingly intelligent people in

them.

>

> What is different about Asperger's is, maybe, not so much raw

> intelligence as *focus*. I mean, no " normal " human works 20 hours

> straight on a problem, or focuses narrowly on one tiny interest

> for years at a time. The kings in question were highly motivated to

> come up with a solution to a problem, and probably oursourced

> the problem to a lot of smart advisors who were similarly

motivated,

> and so they solved the problem. Folks like Newton and Turing

though,

> just worked and worked on problems for no particular reason,

problems

> that were often or mainly theoretical and had no obviously useful

> application. A smart non-Aspie can solve problems as needed,

> but if he's sitting on a South Seas island with plenty of food, is

not

> likely to bother with inventing calculus. A smart Aspie, with

plenty

> of food and servants etc., will invent calculus just because it

> seems like an interesting thing to do.

>

> (that's just me speculating .. )

> >

> >----------

> >

>

> Heidi Jean

Heidi, Korea is a wheat eating country. Not as heavily as others

and they still eat a number of things we think of as " paleolitic "

like acorns and chestnuts. But they use wheat flour in their

fermented chili paste!!

Connie H

[Guest guest]

>Heidi, Korea is a wheat eating country. Not as heavily as others

>and they still eat a number of things we think of as " paleolitic "

>like acorns and chestnuts. But they use wheat flour in their

>fermented chili paste!!

>Connie H

They are importing more and more wheat, and I'm noticing

it in my favorite Korean store! Traditionally though, they

ate very little wheat: it doesn't grow well there I guess?

When I first started shopping at the Korean store,

there was NO milk or wheat in the store. Now they

carry both, AND they are adding wheat flour to the stuff

like acorn flour. Sad, very sad!

http://www.asiakan.org/ag_products/wheat_production_trade_korea.shtml

Most of Korea’s grain production fields are dedicated to rice. Korea produces

only about 10 to 12,000 metric tons per year of wheat. Korea’s wheat needs are

largely met through imports of about 3.5 million metric tons per year. The

United States provides over half of Korea’s milling wheat. Australian and

Canadian exports have also been very successful in the Korean market,

particularly Australian Standard White for noodles and Canadian Western Red

Spring for bread and rolls. (Choi and 3-4).

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> What is different about Asperger's is, maybe, not so much raw

> intelligence as *focus*. I mean, no " normal " human works 20 hours

> straight on a problem, or focuses narrowly on one tiny interest

> for years at a time. The kings in question were highly motivated to

> come up with a solution to a problem, and probably oursourced

> the problem to a lot of smart advisors who were similarly motivated,

> and so they solved the problem. Folks like Newton and Turing though,

> just worked and worked on problems for no particular reason, problems

> that were often or mainly theoretical and had no obviously useful

> application. A smart non-Aspie can solve problems as needed,

> but if he's sitting on a South Seas island with plenty of food, is not

> likely to bother with inventing calculus. A smart Aspie, with plenty

> of food and servants etc., will invent calculus just because it

> seems like an interesting thing to do.

That's an interesting set of ideas. I recognize the truth in it and yet

something isn't sitting right. I can't come up with an immediate response

that seems true to me. So now what's most likely going to happen is that

the problem will get put on the backburner and my mind will continue

cogitating on it until at some point I'll have an aha moment and get

realization on what I think the truth of the matter is. Sometimes it's

years later. I recall that it took me 10 years to finally figure out some

of the fundamental problems with Ayn Rand's philosophy and the shining

moment occurred when I was driving my car. Doing nothing in particular.

So, I'm clearly not an Aspie, my memory sucks and I'm massively unfocussed

and yet my intelligence is also much higher than most of the people that I

meet. I hate to say it that way but it's just true. I don't like the

sometimes arrogance that that generates for I've learned that intelligence

is just one of the many aspects that makes us human and valuable. On the

other hand I do like the fact that my mind seems to work in different and

mysterious ways not available to the average person. So when I picture an

intelligent native I just don't get the same kind of image as I see in what

we consider to be our modern intelligence.

Perhaps I haven't spent enough time around natives but, truth be told, I

spent two months in the jungles of Brazil back in the 70's living with an

Indian tribe while my missionary group built an airstrip near their

settlement. I can tell you for sure that there was none of the kind of

intelligence that is becoming more common here in the US. My son and his

friends are brilliant but not Aspie. It's fun to watch.

Still not sure what to think of your theory. You've got me grinding away on

the problem, though. LOL

Ron

[Guest guest]

Ron,

Here's an article from Monday's NYTimes that touches somewhat on what

Heidi's been saying, though as you can see from the title, the starting

point is very different: " The Male Condition. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/08/opinion/08baron-cohen.html?pagewanted=2 & incamp\

=article_popular

Here's a little of the piece:

<What does all this have to do with autism? According to what I have called

the " extreme male brain " theory of autism, people with autism simply match

an extreme of the male profile, with a particularly intense drive to

systemize and an unusually low drive to empathize. When adults with

Asperger's syndrome (a subgroup on the autistic spectrum) took the same

questionnaires we gave to non-autistic adults, they exhibited extreme Type S

brains. Psychological tests reveal a similar pattern.

<And this analysis makes sense. It helps explain the social disability in

autism, because empathy difficulties make it harder to make and maintain

relationships with others. It also explains the " islets of ability " that

people with autism display in subjects like math or music or drawing - all

skills that benefit from systemizing.

<People with autism often develop obsessions, which may be nothing other

than very intense systemizing at work. The child might become obsessed with

electrical switches (an electrical system), or train timetables (a temporal

system), or spinning objects (a physical system), or the names of deep-sea

fish (a natural, taxonomic system). The child with severe autism, who may

have additional learning difficulties and little language ability, might

express his obsessions by bouncing constantly on a trampoline or spinning

around and around, because motion is highly lawful and predictable. Some

children with severe autism line objects up for hours on end. What used to

be dismissed by clinicians as " purposeless, repetitive behavior " may

actually be a sign of a mind that is highly tuned to systemize.

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

> So, I'm clearly not an Aspie, my memory sucks and I'm massively

unfocussed

> and yet my intelligence is also much higher than most of the people

that I

> meet. I hate to say it that way but it's just true. I don't like

the

> sometimes arrogance that that generates for I've learned that

intelligence

> is just one of the many aspects that makes us human and valuable.

On the

> other hand I do like the fact that my mind seems to work in

different and

> mysterious ways not available to the average person. So when I

picture an

> intelligent native I just don't get the same kind of image as I see

in what

> we consider to be our modern intelligence.

>

> Perhaps I haven't spent enough time around natives but, truth be

told, I

> spent two months in the jungles of Brazil back in the 70's living

with an

> Indian tribe while my missionary group built an airstrip near their

> settlement. I can tell you for sure that there was none of the

kind of

> intelligence that is becoming more common here in the US. My son

and his

> friends are brilliant but not Aspie. It's fun to watch.

>

> Still not sure what to think of your theory. You've got me

grinding away on

> the problem, though. LOL

>

> Ron

Hi Ron:

I wasn't following your current discussion, but the word *Brazil*

caught my attention. Of course, that is my country, that's where I

live. That you had been here in the jungles is news to me. As a

Brazilian, I have never been to the jungle myself, which really feels

like debt to me, you know. In other words, I don't know the whole of

my own country, that is a shame, isn't it? And more so because I have

been to countries as far as Sweden and Hungary. Yet I don't consider

myself to be a snob. My plans for the immediate future is only

travelling in Brazil. There is still so much to see.

But where have you been to exactly, if you still remember? Was it in

the Amazons Basin? Did you get to go and visit any big city? What was

the year? Was Brazil under dictatorship at the time? And the

inevitable question: how about the food you ate while you were here?

Don't tell me you only ate American-style food. How about the climate

in the jungle? Did you suffer?

So many questions... Again I have inserted a digression in your

piece. This is just like me, you know. Sorry.

Best wishes,

JC

[Guest guest]

> Sometimes it's

>years later. I recall that it took me 10 years to finally figure out some

>of the fundamental problems with Ayn Rand's philosophy and the shining

>moment occurred when I was driving my car. Doing nothing in particular.

I can relate. That's why I like groups like this: they bring up ideas

and then something else comes along and it all gets clearer and

I learn something really new!

>So, I'm clearly not an Aspie, my memory sucks and I'm massively unfocussed

>and yet my intelligence is also much higher than most of the people that I

>meet. I hate to say it that way but it's just true. I don't like the

>sometimes arrogance that that generates for I've learned that intelligence

>is just one of the many aspects that makes us human and valuable. On the

>other hand I do like the fact that my mind seems to work in different and

>mysterious ways not available to the average person. So when I picture an

>intelligent native I just don't get the same kind of image as I see in what

>we consider to be our modern intelligence.

Yeah, " modern intelligence " really does seem to be a " modern " thing.

No one is really sure what is going on, but people are getting higher

and higher scores on IQ tests (this at a time when everyone is thinking

the school system S***s!).

>Perhaps I haven't spent enough time around natives but, truth be told, I

>spent two months in the jungles of Brazil back in the 70's living with an

>Indian tribe while my missionary group built an airstrip near their

>settlement. I can tell you for sure that there was none of the kind of

>intelligence that is becoming more common here in the US. My son and his

>friends are brilliant but not Aspie. It's fun to watch.

Of course one's OWN kids are always the funnest and smartest! Mine

too!

>Still not sure what to think of your theory. You've got me grinding away on

>the problem, though. LOL

You might want to read something by, say, Temple Grandin. Her take

on the whole thing is absolutely fascinating.

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Interesting theory.

> the " extreme male brain " theory of autism, people with autism

> simply match

> an extreme of the male profile, with a particularly intense drive to

> systemize and an unusually low drive to empathize.

I understand Heidi's premise. I'm suggesting something different.

Her viewpoint appears to be that intelligence manifests primarily in people

with Asperger's type symptoms. This kind of focused brilliance that she

knows so well and sees in her community and then back-applies to

historically famous intellects is certainly one type of intelligence. What

I'm trying to show, rather ineptly as the ideas are not yet fully formed, is

that intelligence is increasing dramatically even in those who don't have

the particular dysfunctions of the Aspies.

My son is an extreme case. Intellectually fully formed and yet far more

obsessed with relationships and friendships than sitting around and doing

book work forever. My daughter is an intellectual normal, so I can fully

see the differences and am not particularly enamored of my children's

abilities because they are my kids. They are 24, BTW, so I'm not talking

about young ones.

Still grinding away on the process.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Ron,

<Her viewpoint appears to be that intelligence manifests primarily in people

with Asperger's type symptoms.

Oh, then I've misunderstood her. I thought her point was simply that Aspies

were likely to be more focused (obsessed?) with a limited area in which

concentration and intensity of focus might lead to more dramatic outcomes

(in knowledge or achievements) than people less driven. I wouldn't myself

say that the intelligence of that kind is in any way " better " than other

kinds of perception and achievement. In fact, I would question the

societies in which this orientation was dominant or held to be a model for

others.

http://www.taichi4seniors.com

[Guest guest]

Hi José ,

> I wasn't following your current discussion, but the word *Brazil*

> caught my attention. Of course, that is my country, that's where I

> live. That you had been here in the jungles is news to me.

I have several times wanted to tell you that I had been there but I didn't

want to start any more conversations that I couldn't finish. As you have

noticed -- I am the anti- in terms of my list etiquette. LOL

> As a

> Brazilian, I have never been to the jungle myself, which really feels

> like debt to me, you know. In other words, I don't know the whole of

> my own country, that is a shame, isn't it?

That is fascinating! I'm not sure that I can fully imagine it as I have

traveled into some of the wilderness areas here in my country and have

thoroughly enjoyed that. There is most definitely a difference between

experiencing the woods and mountains of the US than there is spending time

in the jungles of Brazil, though. The jungle is much more dangerous and

much less forgiving although both can kill you if you are not prepared.

Several years ago I read a book called _Brazil_ which was written by

Updike who is considered to be one of the great literary talents here in the

states. I rarely read his stuff because I find his subject material to be

depressing but he is without a doubt a very fine writer of beautiful prose.

I learned much about your country from his book and I have some appreciation

for how the people of the cities perceive the jungle and the peoples of the

jungle. At least if he got the story right. I think he did as it had the

ring of truth to it and it did correspond with my very limited memories of

what I saw when I was there.

> And more so because I have

> been to countries as far as Sweden and Hungary. Yet I don't consider

> myself to be a snob. My plans for the immediate future is only

> travelling in Brazil. There is still so much to see.

Interesting.

>

> But where have you been to exactly, if you still remember? Was it in

> the Amazons Basin? Did you get to go and visit any big city? What was

> the year? Was Brazil under dictatorship at the time?

I was 14 years old in 1976 when I took the trip although I was pretty mature

for that age. I related well to the other team members who were in their

early 20's. We flew from Miami to Manaus and spent one day touring the

city. I remember little of the town other than that it was a real shock to

me to compare the life there to one that I lead back home. Everything was

very unkempt and very poor. While we certainly had our poor sections in the

town in which I grew up most of the place was neat and tidy and well

maintained. It was a tremendous contrast for my young mind to see such a

different way of life.

After our short stay there we took a river boat up the Negro river for two

days and then off on a tributary somewhere into our very small enclave of

tribespeople somewhere near a tiny town called Manicoré -- if I recall

correctly. We were there for about 6 weeks until we returned by river boat

to Manaus. We flew almost immediately from there to a large city which I am

completely embarrassed to say I can no longer recall the name of. I know

that it was not Rio or Brasilia. I can remember walking through the streets

with my 20 plus teammates and just being completely overwhelmed by the

foreignness of the entire experience. I did not enjoy the big Brazilian

city back then. It was too different from my fairly sheltered upbringing in

Central Pennsylvania in the Northeast US. Things are certainly different

now as I love to travel and experience the variety that the world has to

offer.

As for the government? All I remember is that we were told be very

circumspect when we were in the cities because Brazil was a Catholic country

and they were offended by US fundamentalist missionaries coming there to

help their poor and native peoples. I know no more than that.

> And the

> inevitable question: how about the food you ate while you were here?

> Don't tell me you only ate American-style food.

Oh yes. Lots and lots of spaghetti. Zero Brazilian food except for

bananas. We brought all of our own food with us. Lots of cans of horrible

tasting things. One of my happy memories in the big city to which I can no

longer recall the name was that we found an American style restaurant and I

had a hamburger.

But I will tell you that the bananas in Brazil ruined me for bananas here in

the US forever. When we got on the river boat in Manaus our team leader

bought several entire banana clusters (is that correct terminology?) that

we took into the jungle with us. God, were those things delicious! Huge,

huge flavor and sugary sweet. I remember one day right before we were about

to come home we still had a bunch of bananas left over and the team leaders

allowed us to eat as many as we wanted. We took them down and were dipping

them in raw sugar as we ate and ate and ate. Needless to say we all got

sick. Too much fun! I didn't eat bananas for years after coming back

because the ones that come to the US were just a pale imitation of the real

thing.

> How about the climate

> in the jungle? Did you suffer?

We adapted. It was the end of the dry season when we first got there and

the temperature was about 120 degrees Fahrenheit (49 C) every day. Because

the humidity was so low our perspiration dried immediately and we never felt

like we were sweating. It was actually not very uncomfortable and we

enjoyed the beautiful bright sunny days. In the last week or so of the trip

we began to get afternoon thundershowers and that was truly miserable. The

temp would drop to 100 F but the humidity would be 90%. We were glad to

leave after that.

>

> So many questions... Again I have inserted a digression in your

> piece. This is just like me, you know. Sorry.

I enjoyed it as I wanted to tell you my story anyway.

Now I'm about to have to reduce my email time as I will be taking a class

all day for the next three days. I will happily respond should you choose

to continue the conversation but it might be a little while.

Ron

[Guest guest]

>[Ron] <Her viewpoint appears to be that intelligence manifests primarily in

people

>with Asperger's type symptoms.

>

>[] Oh, then I've misunderstood her. I thought her point was simply that

Aspies

>were likely to be more focused (obsessed?) with a limited area in which

>concentration and intensity of focus might lead to more dramatic outcomes

>(in knowledge or achievements) than people less driven.

[Heidi] , you heard me exactly right! It's confusing a bit because

Aspies seem to test higher on certain kinds of tests, but

I don't know that this constitutes " intelligence " either.

>[] I wouldn't myself

>say that the intelligence of that kind is in any way " better " than other

>kinds of perception and achievement. In fact, I would question the

>societies in which this orientation was dominant or held to be a model for

>others.

[Heidi] I kind of doubt it is ever dominant, even in our society where

it's very common. The people who are rather Aspergerish

are often called geeks and nerds by the more " typical " folk,

and often that isn't meant in a nice way! Though it's becoming

more recognized that in fact companies NEED those geeks

and nerds to run the technological side of the business.

But you look at, say, the Renaissance, and there were just

a handful of men who really made a huge difference.

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

,

> <Her viewpoint appears to be that intelligence manifests

> primarily in people

> with Asperger's type symptoms.

>

> Oh, then I've misunderstood her. I thought her point was

> simply that Aspies

> were likely to be more focused (obsessed?) with a limited

> area in which

> concentration and intensity of focus might lead to more

> dramatic outcomes

> (in knowledge or achievements) than people less driven. I

> wouldn't myself

> say that the intelligence of that kind is in any way " better "

> than other

> kinds of perception and achievement. In fact, I would question the

> societies in which this orientation was dominant or held to

> be a model for

> others.

Okay. Nicely said and that seems to be correct. To some degree I was

mis-interpreting her.

And yet..... If we are discussing intelligence in general and comparing our

culture to that of South East Islanders I'm suggesting that even within the

non-Aspie community intelligence is much higher as the norm now than you

find there. I'm still stumbling somewhat as I haven't yet put my finger on

the correct item. Something that keeps coming up in my mental rumblings has

to do with books and scholastic learning but I'm not quite sure where to go

with that yet.

Still grinding away.

Ron

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of West

>

>Oh, then I've misunderstood her. I thought her point was simply

>that Aspies

>were likely to be more focused (obsessed?) with a limited area in which

>concentration and intensity of focus might lead to more dramatic outcomes

>(in knowledge or achievements) than people less driven.

I've been wondering lately if anyone has ever tested the serotonin levels of

ASD folks (including Aspies) as their focused/obsessed behavior bears a

striking similarity to other types of obsessive behavior caused by deficient

serotonin.

Suze Fisher

Lapdog Design, Inc.

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

“The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times.” --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------