Guest guest Posted May 1, 2006 Report Share Posted May 1, 2006 Hi everyone, I am joining the group as a teacher of children with various disorders and disabilities.One child in the class has down syndrome and from my personal experience with autism, I believe the child is on the spectrum. I'm trying to work with the child without much success. I can not mention this to the parents because I am not a doctor and even hinting that something else may be going on is grounds for being fired. If someone could email me with signs of the dual diagnosis, possible solutions to complete defiance,and information from parents of non-verbal children this would be of a great help to me.Meanwhile, I will continue to work with the child based on my experience with behavior difficulties and give the child the best possible learning experience. What do you do? How do you manage this? My email is indyred2005@.... I also have yahoo messenger indyred2005. Thank you --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail goes everywhere you do. Get it on your phone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 In a message dated 5/2/2006 4:53:28 A.M. Central Standard Time, writes: Meanwhile, I will continue to > work with the child based on my experience with behavior difficulties and > give the child the best possible learning experience. What do you do? How > do you manage this? My email is indyred2005@.... I also have yahoo > messenger indyred2005. > > Thank you Sorry but I missed your name. I just wanted to address your concern about dealing with defiance and non-verbal kids. The first thing to ask yourself is whether the child has any other way, besides defiance to communicate that he can't or in our adult interpretation " won't " do what is asked. 1. The child needs a way to communicate 2. the child needs a way to communicate " no " and someone to listen to him. Then once others are listening to him appropriately is it easier to expect him to listen to us. I look at defiance as a lack of motivation for the child. We need to make it so the child WANTS what we want them to do. OK, off my soap box Karyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 This child is very smart. He can verbalize the word no loud and clear. I believe in pick your battles wisely from personal experience however, at school, work must be done. Nothing is too difficult. He likes to do the same thing over and over so we present him with choices. We also have new material that is used in addition to the old. He usually has one of each. Do you want to do this or this? We work so many minutes on task and so many off task. He gets a reward which he chooses. He will refuse to work and when the work time is almost up he will quickly do any task given. PECS are used for communication as well as some signing.This child will just reach out and slap someone or scratch out of the blue. I know when he reaches out to hit or scratch, he is saying, I don't want to do this. The trouble is that he does not want to do anything except play. This aggression happens constantly and not at any certain time and for the most part as I said previously, out of the blue.Any suggestions are welcome. --------------------------------- Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 My son used to bite us and scratch us only. One time at school he did this. I made a no bite and no scratch picture and I would firmly tell him no. I would then give him his communication book and I asked him what he wanted to do.He would then give me a picture of basketball, I could use this as a reward only. If he scratched or bit he did not get to play. I hope this helps. Cyndi > > This child is very smart. He can verbalize the word no loud and clear. I believe in pick your battles wisely from personal experience however, at school, work must be done. Nothing is too difficult. He likes to do the same thing over and over so we present him with choices. We also have new material that is used in addition to the old. He usually has one of each. Do you want to do this or this? We work so many minutes on task and so many off task. He gets a reward which he chooses. He will refuse to work and when the work time is almost up he will quickly do any task given. PECS are used for communication as well as some signing.This child will just reach out and slap someone or scratch out of the blue. I know when he reaches out to hit or scratch, he is saying, I don't want to do this. The trouble is that he does not want to do anything except play. This aggression happens constantly and not at any certain time and for the most part as I said previously, out of the > blue.Any suggestions are welcome. > > --------------------------------- > Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 In a message dated 5/3/2006 7:51:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, liz.desantis@... writes: We have found that Tori works better when work is made to be fun same with Trisha. The sillier I am the more she enjoys it! She loves the book Five Silly Monkeys and we read that every day and every night before bed. I have her count the monkeys on each page as we read and the more animated I am with reading the more she wants to be read to. She is still calling all the numbers two but she is holding up the right amount of fingers. lol Carol Trishasmom She isn't Typical, She's Trisha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 In a message dated 5/3/2006 8:47:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jacksonsmom99@... writes: heads popping through the holes and the monkeys eat, jump, slide,etc.. on the bed? yes it is. She just loves it. They have the books at Walmart and we saw the other day that they have an updated book where you have larger monkeys with the book. Of course that one is much more. :-0 Carol Trishasmom She isn't Typical, She's Trisha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 In a message dated 5/3/2006 9:37:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sewshawna@... writes: will often tell me to " stop singing! " Trisha tells me to stop when I sing. She is very adamant about it too! lol Carol Trishasmom She isn't Typical, She's Trisha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 In a message dated 5/3/2006 11:03:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, liz.desantis@... writes: Put the palms on their cheeks, and say 1-2 Buckle My Shoe, and release..do the same throughout the song. The other one she loves is Peas Porridge Hot and outline their lips with your finger as you sing it. isn't it funny how our kids can be so much alike but at the same time so different. Trisha would not tolerate her hands being put on her checks or outlining her lips. However she does like me to stroke her hair and will often times take my hand and put it on her head to get me to stroke her hair. :-) Carol Trishasmom She isn't Typical, She's Trisha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 We have found that Tori works better when work is made to be fun. Sometimes that is very difficult, but it works for her. For example: When working with numbers, we make up a number song..or say it in a goofy tone. Liz Re: new to the group This child is very smart. He can verbalize the word no loud and clear. I believe in pick your battles wisely from personal experience however, at school, work must be done. Nothing is too difficult. He likes to do the same thing over and over so we present him with choices. We also have new material that is used in addition to the old. He usually has one of each. Do you want to do this or this? We work so many minutes on task and so many off task. He gets a reward which he chooses. He will refuse to work and when the work time is almost up he will quickly do any task given. PECS are used for communication as well as some signing.This child will just reach out and slap someone or scratch out of the blue. I know when he reaches out to hit or scratch, he is saying, I don't want to do this. The trouble is that he does not want to do anything except play. This aggression happens constantly and not at any certain time and for the most part as I said previously, out of the blue.Any suggestions are welcome. --------------------------------- Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 This is how 's aide gets him to do ANYTHING! She has a song for washing hands, a song for drying hands, just about every aspect of their day. Amazingly though, when I sing at home - I get " STOP!! " from him! LOL! I'm no Ms. Stanley that's for sure! (that's his aide) Jayne Liz D wrote: We have found that Tori works better when work is made to be fun. Sometimes that is very difficult, but it works for her. For example: When working with numbers, we make up a number song..or say it in a goofy tone. Liz Re: new to the group This child is very smart. He can verbalize the word no loud and clear. I believe in pick your battles wisely from personal experience however, at school, work must be done. Nothing is too difficult. He likes to do the same thing over and over so we present him with choices. We also have new material that is used in addition to the old. He usually has one of each. Do you want to do this or this? We work so many minutes on task and so many off task. He gets a reward which he chooses. He will refuse to work and when the work time is almost up he will quickly do any task given. PECS are used for communication as well as some signing.This child will just reach out and slap someone or scratch out of the blue. I know when he reaches out to hit or scratch, he is saying, I don't want to do this. The trouble is that he does not want to do anything except play. This aggression happens constantly and not at any certain time and for the most part as I said previously, out of the blue.Any suggestions are welcome. --------------------------------- Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 Okay, once again our kids have so many similarities! LOVES Five Silly Monkeys!! Is this the one with the monkey heads popping through the holes and the monkeys eat, jump, slide,etc.. on the bed? loves to sign along to the book and when we get to the part about Mama called the doctor and the doctor said... I pause and let him answer - he says " NO! " He cracks up at those silly monkeys!!! too funny, Jayne Csvillars@... wrote: She loves the book Five Silly Monkeys and we read that every day and every night before bed. I --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail goes everywhere you do. Get it on your phone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 nathan too has always loved those number/finger play songs, and is very good at asking for more by adding one to what he just ate like if he had 1 burger he will ask for two and then three, but there are many songs the monkeys on the bed the monkeys in the tree, the little ducks , little indians, the ants and so on, nathan doesnt really understand math persay but can cunt with the best of them. shawna --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 hey dont foregt the potty song, lol, i barely remember the potty song we made up with nathan when we were in the potty training years, lol , natha will often tell me to " stop singing! " nowadays too, i think he got that from shrek, when he is yelling at donkey, lol shawna __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 Tori also loves a sensory thing her SOT taught us. Put the palms on their cheeks, and say 1-2 Buckle My Shoe, and release..do the same throughout the song. The other one she loves is Peas Porridge Hot and outline their lips with your finger as you sing it. Liz Re: new to the group > nathan too has always loved those number/finger play songs, and is very > good at asking for more by adding one to what he just ate like if he had 1 > burger he will ask for two and then three, but there are many songs the > monkeys on the bed the monkeys in the tree, the little ducks , little > indians, the ants and so on, nathan doesnt really understand math persay > but can cunt with the best of them. shawna > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 Elie too! HE won't let me sing to for with him! Sara Join the next generation of Hotmail and you could win the adventure of a lifetime http://www.imagine-msn.com/minisites/sweepstakes/mail/register.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 In a message dated 5/3/2006 6:41:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, indyred2005@... writes: He works 7 minutes on 3 minutes off all day. This has been the routine all year.As soon as that 7 minutes runs out he will quickly do whatever the task was at the time. then maybe for right now his attention span maximum is 7 minutes. Are you using positive reinforcement and lots of visuals? Have you used a picture schedule or a First/Then board? Timers are also very handy for helping a child to stay on task and to know when the task is finished and what will be next. you stated: I don't think he should be dismissed from completing his work just because he " doesn't want to " . my question would then be is the work to hard for him, does he not understand it, you know behavior is a form of communication, I just wouldn't assume he just doesn't want to work and even if that is the case you still need to find positive motivators that will encourage him to stay on task. If he can stay on task for 7 mins then the next goal might be for him to stay on task for 7.5 mins. Does this mean he does not feel safe and can not be himself with her? She is a very good teacher and does not make unreasonable demands. No of course not, I misunderstood and thought you were the mom, because a lot of times our kids act out with us because we are there and it's a safe haven. Carol Trishasmom She isn't Typical, She's Trisha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 In a message dated 5/3/2006 8:09:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, indyred2005@... writes: For example, reading the same stories everytime he has the subject. We have new stories and activities for him and before we even begin to read them he will battle.When I have him I will get out something old and something new. I will even let him choose what he wants to do. what about trying the First/Then card with the new activity first and the favorite story/activity as then? That helped Trisha so much when she wanted to do the same thing over and over. Carol Trishasmom She isn't Typical, She's Trisha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 In a message dated 5/3/2006 8:28:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, indyred2005@... writes: We've done that as well. This is the first time anyone has made demands on this child in his whole life. then as much as you probably don't want to hear this, it's going to take time. Even with all the supports in place it will take time. If he has not had expectations/demands in his whole life then you have a whole life to undo. That will take a lot of time and patience but don't stop do the things you are doing as you well know, consistency is very important. In our case it was the school who did not have expectations of Trisha and let her just pretty much hang in her own little world. She is not at a school for autism and ABA is one methodology among many others they are using with her and it has made the biggest difference. It didn't happen over night and there are some things they are still working on since the beginning of school but the progress while slow is none-the-less progress. In some areas she has made faster progress and in some much slower. She can now tolerate a wrist band for 6 mins verses them starting out at 2 seconds at the beginning of the year. Carol Trishasmom She isn't Typical, She's Trisha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 In a message dated 5/3/2006 8:47:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Csvillars@... writes: She is not at a school for autism and ABA is one methodology among many others they are using with her and it has made the biggest difference. It didn't happen over night and there are some things they are still working on since the beginning of school but the progress while slow is none-the-less progress. umm....typo that should read now instead of not. spell check doesn't pick up wrong words just wrong spellings it seems. lol Carol Trishasmom She isn't Typical, She's Trisha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 I'm going to buy that book. He does love for us to sing and loves music and we do what we can in a sing-song voice. Music is the reward chosen most of the time but there are times when no negotiation is possible and everything has gone chaotic.As I mentioned to someone else, I don't understand why I get hugs at the beginning of the day, hit, scratched, and spit at all day and then hugs at the end of the day. He does not do any of this to the teacher. She is older than me, taller, and has gray hair. Could he see me as a kid since I am pretty small? I often wonder if he likes me. This child is not ever mistreated in any way. --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1 & cent;/min. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 In a message dated 5/3/2006 8:53:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gldcst@... writes: What kinds of reinforcers do you have in place for when he does work? Unfortunately not many people normal or not actually want to work...there has to be a payoff One thing the autism school asked me was to send in as many of Trisha's favorite things as I could so that she had plenty of reinforcers to chose from. They encourage her to bring in toys that she likes or books, movies, music whatever she likes. She has a bag that she puts her things in that she takes with her daily and then there are things I have sent it to keep at school. They don't have a problem when she brings her doll in or anything else. The thing about visual is not only having them available but making sure the child understands the visuals and schedules. In the old school just having the picture schedule hanging somewhere in the classroom didn't do any good or using pictures when they thought about it or signs when they thought about it. Also the child has to be trained what the pictures represent. One way of doing that is to use the pictures yourself as you talk to the child so they can see the pictures are part of communication. They had pictures at the old school but they just didn't know how to use them effectively. Carol Trishasmom She isn't Typical, She's Trisha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 I forgot to say that we did increase Tori's time for a task at small increments. She still flips..but she can stay on task longer than she could 1 yr. ago...that's for sure. Liz Re: new to the group > > In a message dated 5/3/2006 6:41:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > indyred2005@... writes: > > He works 7 minutes on 3 minutes off all day. This has been the routine > all > year.As soon as that 7 minutes runs out he will quickly do whatever the > task > was at the time. > > > then maybe for right now his attention span maximum is 7 minutes. Are > you > using positive reinforcement and lots of visuals? Have you used a > picture > schedule or a First/Then board? Timers are also very handy for helping a > child > to stay on task and to know when the task is finished and what will be > next. > > you stated: I don't think he should be dismissed from completing his work > just because he " doesn't want to " . > my question would then be is the work to hard for him, does he not > understand it, you know behavior is a form of communication, I just > wouldn't assume > he just doesn't want to work and even if that is the case you still need > to > find positive motivators that will encourage him to stay on task. If he > can > stay on task for 7 mins then the next goal might be for him to stay on > task > for 7.5 mins. > > Does this mean > he does not feel safe and can not be himself with her? She is a very good > teacher and does not make unreasonable demands. > > > No of course not, I misunderstood and thought you were the mom, because a > lot of times our kids act out with us because we are there and it's a > safe > haven. > > Carol > Trishasmom > She isn't Typical, She's Trisha! > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 << He works 7 minutes on 3 minutes off all day. This has been the routine all year.As soon as that 7 minutes runs out he will quickly do whatever the task was at the time. You are saying he feels safe with me but I believe the behavior is done because he just does not want to work and I don't think he should be dismissed from completing his work just because he " doesn't want to " . >> Have you looked into as Carol mentions...lots of visual cues and schedules so he knows what to expect and what the reward is for whatever work he does? What kinds of reinforcers do you have in place for when he does work? Unfortunately not many people normal or not actually want to work...there has to be a payoff. For you it is a paycheck and you are able to realize that your reward is not immediate. I don't know how old this little guy is but my dtr is 17 and keeping her on task for 7 minutes has taken a long long while. She has to take 5 minute breaks (or three or whatever in between and she has to receive bigtime praise or rewards or reinforcers at the beginning or introduction of any new task. Eventually she learned to work for verbal praise but that was along time coming. Identifying reinforcers or rewards is the first step in teaching autistic kids; the second is to establish instructional control by " pairing " yourself with the reinforcer. Something that only you can provide him, not the teacher or mom at home. See if mom knows of anything he loves that she would be willing to put in your and only your control to reward him with (immediately upon success) until you have established instructional control. Then you can begin to fade the reinforcers and stretch out the time. if you can get only 2 minutes, or 1 minute of good work that ends on a happy successful note you will have achieved the magic. I know it's difficult as therapists and teachers feel like they're not doing a good job if they are not working every minute with the child. Try for success in small increments. Aggression may seem to come from nowhere but it can come from the smell of a magic marker, the sound of a lawn mower, an allergenic food unknowingly ingested, stomach pain...the list is endless. You are correct that he should never be allowed to " escape " from work by being aggressive; it often works to slip something in very fast and very easy that you know he can do and then let him go on break on a good note, always after a success or he will indeed learn to hit as a means of escaping work. As much as possible you need to block and ignore the aggressions as an intense negative reaction can also be very rewarding. This is all basic ABA theory which we were not lucky enough to latch onto till was 11 but it works soooooo well. Sherry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 Yes, we use picture schedules, visual and digital timer and positive reinforcement. We use PECS. Everything he does has a picture and he has a time to work picture and time to play.When he is finished with the task he removes it and puts it in an envelope. We do everything that we have been told to do by the OT, PT, and everyone else involved. The hitting sometimes starts even before the task has been started. The work he is presented with isn't too hard for him. He likes to do the same work over and over. For example, reading the same stories everytime he has the subject. We have new stories and activities for him and before we even begin to read them he will battle.When I have him I will get out something old and something new. I will even let him choose what he wants to do. The more I think about this I have more ideas as to what could be the cause. I am now up to hundreds of ideas. I've thought, is it something I have on, I don't wear perfume, could it be what he has on, or any number of different sensory issues. I've taken detailed notes throughout the days. I'm frustrated, not at the child, but at not knowing. This child can sign done, hungry, sick, and other necessary signs.He can say no loud and clear. In the morning I ask if he is hungry. He says no every time. If I ask something that he does need he will shake his head yes. I'm reading every post that comes through and every link. Someone has to figure this child out and I won't give up. Thanks --------------------------------- Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2006 Report Share Posted May 3, 2006 You are right about the teacher appearing more authoritative than me. I have a soft voice and I'm small. Both of us have him complete his task no matter how long it takes. I find it funny that he will fight and fight but as soon as that timer goes off he gets the task done quickly to get his reward. You are also right in that I am the one he is with for 98% of the day. --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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