New to the group

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone,

I am joining the group as a teacher of children with various disorders

and disabilities.One child in the class has down syndrome and from my personal

experience with autism, I believe the child is on the spectrum. I'm trying to

work with the child without much success. I can not mention this to the parents

because I am not a doctor and even hinting that something else may be going on

is grounds for being fired. If someone could email me with signs of the dual

diagnosis, possible solutions to complete defiance,and information from parents

of non-verbal children this would be of a great help to me.Meanwhile, I will

continue to work with the child based on my experience with behavior

difficulties and give the child the best possible learning experience. What do

you do? How do you manage this? My email is indyred2005@.... I also have

yahoo messenger indyred2005.

Thank you

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/2/2006 4:53:28 A.M. Central Standard Time,

writes:

Meanwhile, I will continue to

> work with the child based on my experience with behavior difficulties and

> give the child the best possible learning experience. What do you do? How

> do you manage this? My email is indyred2005@.... I also have yahoo

> messenger indyred2005.

>

> Thank you

Sorry but I missed your name. I just wanted to address your concern about

dealing with defiance and non-verbal kids. The first thing to ask yourself is

whether the child has any other way, besides defiance to communicate that he

can't or in our adult interpretation " won't " do what is asked.

1. The child needs a way to communicate

2. the child needs a way to communicate " no " and someone to listen to him.

Then once others are listening to him appropriately is it easier to expect

him to listen to us.

I look at defiance as a lack of motivation for the child. We need to make it

so the child WANTS what we want them to do.

OK, off my soap box

Karyn

[Guest guest]

This child is very smart. He can verbalize the word no loud and clear. I believe

in pick your battles wisely from personal experience however, at school, work

must be done. Nothing is too difficult. He likes to do the same thing over and

over so we present him with choices. We also have new material that is used in

addition to the old. He usually has one of each. Do you want to do this or this?

We work so many minutes on task and so many off task. He gets a reward which he

chooses. He will refuse to work and when the work time is almost up he will

quickly do any task given. PECS are used for communication as well as some

signing.This child will just reach out and slap someone or scratch out of the

blue. I know when he reaches out to hit or scratch, he is saying, I don't want

to do this. The trouble is that he does not want to do anything except play.

This aggression happens constantly and not at any certain time and for the most

part as I said previously, out of the

blue.Any suggestions are welcome.

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

My son used to bite us and scratch us only. One time at school he

did this. I made a no bite and no scratch picture and I would firmly

tell him no. I would then give him his communication book and I

asked him what he wanted to do.He would then give me a picture of

basketball, I could use this as a reward only. If he scratched or

bit he did not get to play. I hope this helps. Cyndi

>

> This child is very smart. He can verbalize the word no loud and

clear. I believe in pick your battles wisely from personal

experience however, at school, work must be done. Nothing is too

difficult. He likes to do the same thing over and over so we present

him with choices. We also have new material that is used in addition

to the old. He usually has one of each. Do you want to do this or

this? We work so many minutes on task and so many off task. He gets

a reward which he chooses. He will refuse to work and when the work

time is almost up he will quickly do any task given. PECS are used

for communication as well as some signing.This child will just reach

out and slap someone or scratch out of the blue. I know when he

reaches out to hit or scratch, he is saying, I don't want to do

this. The trouble is that he does not want to do anything except

play. This aggression happens constantly and not at any certain time

and for the most part as I said previously, out of the

> blue.Any suggestions are welcome.

>

> ---------------------------------

> Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for

just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/3/2006 7:51:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

liz.desantis@... writes:

We have found that Tori works better when work is made to be fun

same with Trisha. The sillier I am the more she enjoys it! She loves the

book Five Silly Monkeys and we read that every day and every night before

bed. I have her count the monkeys on each page as we read and the more

animated

I am with reading the more she wants to be read to. She is still calling

all the numbers two but she is holding up the right amount of fingers. lol

Carol

Trishasmom

She isn't Typical, She's Trisha!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/3/2006 8:47:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

jacksonsmom99@... writes:

heads popping through the holes and the monkeys eat, jump, slide,etc.. on

the bed?

yes it is. She just loves it. They have the books at Walmart and we saw

the other day that they have an updated book where you have larger monkeys with

the book. Of course that one is much more. :-0

Carol

Trishasmom

She isn't Typical, She's Trisha!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/3/2006 9:37:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

sewshawna@... writes:

will often tell me to " stop singing! "

Trisha tells me to stop when I sing. She is very adamant about it too! lol

Carol

Trishasmom

She isn't Typical, She's Trisha!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/3/2006 11:03:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

liz.desantis@... writes:

Put the palms on their

cheeks, and say 1-2 Buckle My Shoe, and release..do the same throughout the

song. The other one she loves is Peas Porridge Hot and outline their lips

with your finger as you sing it.

isn't it funny how our kids can be so much alike but at the same time so

different. Trisha would not tolerate her hands being put on her checks or

outlining her lips. However she does like me to stroke her hair and will often

times take my hand and put it on her head to get me to stroke her hair. :-)

Carol

Trishasmom

She isn't Typical, She's Trisha!

[Guest guest]

We have found that Tori works better when work is made to be fun. Sometimes

that is very difficult, but it works for her. For example: When working

with numbers, we make up a number song..or say it in a goofy tone.

Liz

Re: new to the group

This child is very smart. He can verbalize the word no loud and clear. I

believe in pick your battles wisely from personal experience however, at

school, work must be done. Nothing is too difficult. He likes to do the same

thing over and over so we present him with choices. We also have new

material that is used in addition to the old. He usually has one of each. Do

you want to do this or this? We work so many minutes on task and so many off

task. He gets a reward which he chooses. He will refuse to work and when the

work time is almost up he will quickly do any task given. PECS are used for

communication as well as some signing.This child will just reach out and

slap someone or scratch out of the blue. I know when he reaches out to hit

or scratch, he is saying, I don't want to do this. The trouble is that he

does not want to do anything except play. This aggression happens constantly

and not at any certain time and for the most part as I said previously, out

of the

blue.Any suggestions are welcome.

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

This is how 's aide gets him to do ANYTHING! She has a song for washing

hands, a song for drying hands, just about every aspect of their day. Amazingly

though, when I sing at home - I get " STOP!! " from him! LOL! I'm no Ms. Stanley

that's for sure! (that's his aide)

Jayne

Liz D wrote:

We have found that Tori works better when work is made to be fun. Sometimes

that is very difficult, but it works for her. For example: When working

with numbers, we make up a number song..or say it in a goofy tone.

Liz

Re: new to the group

This child is very smart. He can verbalize the word no loud and clear. I

believe in pick your battles wisely from personal experience however, at

school, work must be done. Nothing is too difficult. He likes to do the same

thing over and over so we present him with choices. We also have new

material that is used in addition to the old. He usually has one of each. Do

you want to do this or this? We work so many minutes on task and so many off

task. He gets a reward which he chooses. He will refuse to work and when the

work time is almost up he will quickly do any task given. PECS are used for

communication as well as some signing.This child will just reach out and

slap someone or scratch out of the blue. I know when he reaches out to hit

or scratch, he is saying, I don't want to do this. The trouble is that he

does not want to do anything except play. This aggression happens constantly

and not at any certain time and for the most part as I said previously, out

of the

blue.Any suggestions are welcome.

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Okay, once again our kids have so many similarities! LOVES Five Silly

Monkeys!! Is this the one with the monkey heads popping through the holes and

the monkeys eat, jump, slide,etc.. on the bed?

loves to sign along to the book and when we get to the part about Mama

called the doctor and the doctor said... I pause and let him answer - he says

" NO! " He cracks up at those silly monkeys!!!

too funny,

Jayne

Csvillars@... wrote:

She loves the

book Five Silly Monkeys and we read that every day and every night before

bed. I

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[Guest guest]

nathan too has always loved those number/finger play songs, and is very good at

asking for more by adding one to what he just ate like if he had 1 burger he

will ask for two and then three, but there are many songs the monkeys on the

bed the monkeys in the tree, the little ducks , little indians, the ants and so

on, nathan doesnt really understand math persay but can cunt with the best of

them. shawna

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[Guest guest]

hey dont foregt the potty song, lol, i barely remember the potty song we made up

with nathan when we were in the potty training years, lol , natha will often

tell me to " stop singing! " nowadays too, i think he got that from shrek, when he

is yelling at donkey, lol shawna

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Tori also loves a sensory thing her SOT taught us. Put the palms on their

cheeks, and say 1-2 Buckle My Shoe, and release..do the same throughout the

song. The other one she loves is Peas Porridge Hot and outline their lips

with your finger as you sing it.

Liz

Re: new to the group

> nathan too has always loved those number/finger play songs, and is very

> good at asking for more by adding one to what he just ate like if he had 1

> burger he will ask for two and then three, but there are many songs the

> monkeys on the bed the monkeys in the tree, the little ducks , little

> indians, the ants and so on, nathan doesnt really understand math persay

> but can cunt with the best of them. shawna

>

> ---------------------------------

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>

>

[Guest guest]

Elie too! HE won't let me sing to for with him!

Sara

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/3/2006 6:41:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

indyred2005@... writes:

He works 7 minutes on 3 minutes off all day. This has been the routine all

year.As soon as that 7 minutes runs out he will quickly do whatever the task

was at the time.

then maybe for right now his attention span maximum is 7 minutes. Are you

using positive reinforcement and lots of visuals? Have you used a picture

schedule or a First/Then board? Timers are also very handy for helping a child

to stay on task and to know when the task is finished and what will be next.

you stated: I don't think he should be dismissed from completing his work

just because he " doesn't want to " .

my question would then be is the work to hard for him, does he not

understand it, you know behavior is a form of communication, I just wouldn't

assume

he just doesn't want to work and even if that is the case you still need to

find positive motivators that will encourage him to stay on task. If he can

stay on task for 7 mins then the next goal might be for him to stay on task

for 7.5 mins.

Does this mean

he does not feel safe and can not be himself with her? She is a very good

teacher and does not make unreasonable demands.

No of course not, I misunderstood and thought you were the mom, because a

lot of times our kids act out with us because we are there and it's a safe

haven.

Carol

Trishasmom

She isn't Typical, She's Trisha!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/3/2006 8:09:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

indyred2005@... writes:

For example, reading the same stories everytime he has the subject. We have

new stories and activities for him and before we even begin to read them he

will battle.When I have him I will get out something old and something new. I

will even let him choose what he wants to do.

what about trying the First/Then card with the new activity first and the

favorite story/activity as then? That helped Trisha so much when she wanted to

do the same thing over and over.

Carol

Trishasmom

She isn't Typical, She's Trisha!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/3/2006 8:28:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

indyred2005@... writes:

We've done that as well. This is the first time anyone has made demands on

this child in his whole life.

then as much as you probably don't want to hear this, it's going to take

time. Even with all the supports in place it will take time. If he has not

had

expectations/demands in his whole life then you have a whole life to undo.

That will take a lot of time and patience but don't stop do the things you

are doing as you well know, consistency is very important. In our case it was

the school who did not have expectations of Trisha and let her just pretty

much hang in her own little world. She is not at a school for autism and ABA

is one methodology among many others they are using with her and it has made

the biggest difference. It didn't happen over night and there are some things

they are still working on since the beginning of school but the progress

while slow is none-the-less progress. In some areas she has made faster

progress and in some much slower. She can now tolerate a wrist band for 6 mins

verses them starting out at 2 seconds at the beginning of the year.

Carol

Trishasmom

She isn't Typical, She's Trisha!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/3/2006 8:47:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

Csvillars@... writes:

She is not at a school for autism and ABA

is one methodology among many others they are using with her and it has

made

the biggest difference. It didn't happen over night and there are some

things

they are still working on since the beginning of school but the progress

while slow is none-the-less progress.

umm....typo that should read now instead of not. spell check doesn't pick

up wrong words just wrong spellings it seems. lol

Carol

Trishasmom

She isn't Typical, She's Trisha!

[Guest guest]

I'm going to buy that book. He does love for us to sing and loves music and we

do what we can in a sing-song voice. Music is the reward chosen most of the time

but there are times when no negotiation is possible and everything has gone

chaotic.As I mentioned to someone else, I don't understand why I get hugs at the

beginning of the day, hit, scratched, and spit at all day and then hugs at the

end of the day. He does not do any of this to the teacher. She is older than me,

taller, and has gray hair. Could he see me as a kid since I am pretty small? I

often wonder if he likes me. This child is not ever mistreated in any way.

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/3/2006 8:53:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

gldcst@... writes:

What kinds of reinforcers do you have in place for when he does work?

Unfortunately not many people normal or not actually want to work...there has

to be

a payoff

One thing the autism school asked me was to send in as many of Trisha's

favorite things as I could so that she had plenty of reinforcers to chose from.

They encourage her to bring in toys that she likes or books, movies, music

whatever she likes. She has a bag that she puts her things in that she takes

with her daily and then there are things I have sent it to keep at school.

They don't have a problem when she brings her doll in or anything else. The

thing about visual is not only having them available but making sure the child

understands the visuals and schedules. In the old school just having the

picture schedule hanging somewhere in the classroom didn't do any good or using

pictures when they thought about it or signs when they thought about it.

Also the child has to be trained what the pictures represent. One way of doing

that is to use the pictures yourself as you talk to the child so they can see

the pictures are part of communication. They had pictures at the old school

but they just didn't know how to use them effectively.

Carol

Trishasmom

She isn't Typical, She's Trisha!

[Guest guest]

I forgot to say that we did increase Tori's time for a task at small

increments. She still flips..but she can stay on task longer than she could

1 yr. ago...that's for sure.

Liz

Re: new to the group

>

> In a message dated 5/3/2006 6:41:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> indyred2005@... writes:

>

> He works 7 minutes on 3 minutes off all day. This has been the routine

> all

> year.As soon as that 7 minutes runs out he will quickly do whatever the

> task

> was at the time.

>

>

> then maybe for right now his attention span maximum is 7 minutes. Are

> you

> using positive reinforcement and lots of visuals? Have you used a

> picture

> schedule or a First/Then board? Timers are also very handy for helping a

> child

> to stay on task and to know when the task is finished and what will be

> next.

>

> you stated: I don't think he should be dismissed from completing his work

> just because he " doesn't want to " .

> my question would then be is the work to hard for him, does he not

> understand it, you know behavior is a form of communication, I just

> wouldn't assume

> he just doesn't want to work and even if that is the case you still need

> to

> find positive motivators that will encourage him to stay on task. If he

> can

> stay on task for 7 mins then the next goal might be for him to stay on

> task

> for 7.5 mins.

>

> Does this mean

> he does not feel safe and can not be himself with her? She is a very good

> teacher and does not make unreasonable demands.

>

>

> No of course not, I misunderstood and thought you were the mom, because a

> lot of times our kids act out with us because we are there and it's a

> safe

> haven.

>

> Carol

> Trishasmom

> She isn't Typical, She's Trisha!

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

<< He works 7 minutes on 3 minutes off all day. This has been the routine all

year.As soon as that 7 minutes runs out he will quickly do whatever the task was

at the time. You are saying he feels safe with me but I believe the behavior is

done because he just does not want to work and I don't think he should be

dismissed from completing his work just because he " doesn't want to " . >>

Have you looked into as Carol mentions...lots of visual cues and

schedules so he knows what to expect and what the reward is for whatever work he

does? What kinds of reinforcers do you have in place for when he does work?

Unfortunately not many people normal or not actually want to work...there has to

be a payoff. For you it is a paycheck and you are able to realize that your

reward is not immediate. I don't know how old this little guy is but my dtr is

17 and keeping her on task for 7 minutes has taken a long long while. She has to

take 5 minute breaks (or three or whatever in between and she has to receive

bigtime praise or rewards or reinforcers at the beginning or introduction of any

new task. Eventually she learned to work for verbal praise but that was along

time coming.

Identifying reinforcers or rewards is the first step in teaching autistic

kids; the second is to establish instructional control by " pairing " yourself

with the reinforcer. Something that only you can provide him, not the teacher or

mom at home. See if mom knows of anything he loves that she would be willing to

put in your and only your control to reward him with (immediately upon success)

until you have established instructional control. Then you can begin to fade the

reinforcers and stretch out the time. if you can get only 2 minutes, or 1 minute

of good work that ends on a happy successful note you will have achieved the

magic.

I know it's difficult as therapists and teachers feel like they're not

doing a good job if they are not working every minute with the child. Try for

success in small increments. Aggression may seem to come from nowhere but it can

come from the smell of a magic marker, the sound of a lawn mower, an allergenic

food unknowingly ingested, stomach pain...the list is endless.

You are correct that he should never be allowed to " escape " from work by being

aggressive; it often works to slip something in very fast and very easy that you

know he can do and then let him go on break on a good note, always after a

success or he will indeed learn to hit as a means of escaping work. As much as

possible you need to block and ignore the aggressions as an intense negative

reaction can also be very rewarding. This is all basic ABA theory which we were

not lucky enough to latch onto till was 11 but it works soooooo well.

Sherry

[Guest guest]

Yes, we use picture schedules, visual and digital timer and positive

reinforcement. We use PECS. Everything he does has a picture and he has a time

to work picture and time to play.When he is finished with the task he removes it

and puts it in an envelope. We do everything that we have been told to do by the

OT, PT, and everyone else involved. The hitting sometimes starts even before the

task has been started. The work he is presented with isn't too hard for him. He

likes to do the same work over and over. For example, reading the same stories

everytime he has the subject. We have new stories and activities for him and

before we even begin to read them he will battle.When I have him I will get out

something old and something new. I will even let him choose what he wants to do.

The more I think about this I have more ideas as to what could be the cause. I

am now up to hundreds of ideas. I've thought, is it something I have on, I don't

wear perfume, could it be what he has

on, or any number of different sensory issues. I've taken detailed notes

throughout the days. I'm frustrated, not at the child, but at not knowing. This

child can sign done, hungry, sick, and other necessary signs.He can say no loud

and clear. In the morning I ask if he is hungry. He says no every time. If I ask

something that he does need he will shake his head yes. I'm reading every post

that comes through and every link. Someone has to figure this child out and I

won't give up.

Thanks

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[Guest guest]

You are right about the teacher appearing more authoritative than me. I have a

soft voice and I'm small. Both of us have him complete his task no matter how

long it takes. I find it funny that he will fight and fight but as soon as that

timer goes off he gets the task done quickly to get his reward. You are also

right in that I am the one he is with for 98% of the day.

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