Re: Accepting my AS

[Guest guest]

Gail Pennington wrote:

> If I drank that much eggnog at once I would be in big trouble! I had

> a small glass of " gourmet " eggnog a few days ago and found myself in

> the bathroom with severe cramps, feeling hot and sweaty and feeling

> like I was going to pass out.

I get that reaction sometimes, but I have not noticed any correlation

between such events and any possible causative factor. Certainly there

is no correlation between consumption of dairy products and these events.

> Kept yelling and DH

Designated hitter? Bah. Real pitchers swing a bat.

> came in and

> declared that my reaction was not normal and I should see a doctor.

No kidding it's not normal-- imagine if it was. Egg nog would probably

be illegal if it were.

> Yeah, just what I needed to hear in between cramps and feeling like I

> am going to faint. :-/

When I get this way, I get so weak that I have to lean on the sink as I

am seated on the toilet. I get that hot-cold feeling, the cold sweat,

and start to go into tunnel vision as I start to pass out. At least

once, I have lost consciousness. The pain is severe... but as soon as

the colon drops in pressure a bit, it eases. I have never seen a doctor

for this... it is acute, but short lived. I just ride it out.

> I grabbed him around the waist so if I did faint I woudn't fall on

> the floor. He told me afterwards that he can't stand to see me suffer

> like that.

Tell him to shut his eyes

[Guest guest]

All humans have some reaction to casein, but it's more exaggerated with

people with atypical neurochemistry.

Remember, of course, that autism isn't just " one thing. " There a number of

genetic anomalies that can create autism-like disorders. We're dealing with

a thought/behavior process that can come about from many different things.

Re: Accepting my AS

> Hey Kaiden... do all autistics have this reaction to casein? just

> wondering cause I can tolerate a lot of dairy... it doesn't make me

> hallucinate like some other autistcis acqunaintance of mine...

>

> ?

> dani

[Guest guest]

Gail,

Have you always had this kind of reaction to eggnog or dairy products, or

did this develop recently?

Norah

>

> Reply-To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 21:30:42 -0500

> To: <AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse >

> Subject: Re: Accepting my AS

>

> I grabbed him around the waist so if I did faint I woudn't fall on the

> floor. He told me afterwards that he can't stand to see me suffer like that.

> I felt weak and got cold chills after the attack was over.

[Guest guest]

What's a Turing Test???? No one ever gave me one of those!!!!

>

> Reply-To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 22:13:23 -0600

> To: <AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse >

> Subject: Re: Accepting my AS

>

> If you can pass a Turing Test, you've got

> Asperger's, even if you didn't say your first words until you were six years

> old.

[Guest guest]

Dani,

But most Aspies are much more articulate than me and they get DX'd. These

doctors I saw are ones that see a lot of Asperger and autistic patients, but

I think probably mostly men and children. The last one I saw said he has

about 200 people with AS in his practice, either as patients or parents of

the patients.

I'm not really sure either why women Aspies are harder to recognize. I did

read somewhere that girls perseverate about things that are more mainstream,

such as horses. Or that women in general are more socially adept, so that

it might follow that women Aspies might be more able to pass as normal. But

I don't know if the experts really know!!!

I know that doctors are more likely to see a " mental illness " in women than

in men!

I've been on AS lists & forums for 2+ years now and still am no closer to

accepting myself, which of course is not the fault of the people on the

lists, but is my fault! I don't know why I have this blockage to acceptance

of myself! I just keep seeing everyone as better than me--whether in social

skills (NT's) or brains & imagination (Aspies, auties & some NT's as well).

Plus even most people with AS seem to get along better and have more friends

than I do, or at least as many as they want.

Norah

>

> Reply-To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 19:13:37 -0800

> To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Subject: Re: Accepting my AS

>

> and of course I know one reason you can't get a dx my dear... you're too

> articulate by half, and really, no psychiatrist in their right mind

> would be easily convinced to dx you with a " developlemental disabilty "

> UNLESS! they are in the habit of identifying these issues in high

> functioning adults...! unless they are open minded to letting go of

> slotting you into a mental illness dx because you are a woman... don't

> forget you are dealin gwitha medical system where women are still sent

> home with valium when they should be treated for heart attacks !

>

> I believe I am ASD, but I have depression, mental anxiety disorde,

> chronic generalized anxiety, SAD, ADHD, Fibrmyaliga, PMS, pre menopause,

> and sometimes a hell of a lot of rage!

[Guest guest]

" Subject: Re: Accepting my AS

Their " Personal

Celebration " series is good, too, as it has things you might not have

realized, such as the fact that you are a valuable, worthy being who has an

impact on the world around you. No one has to tell you that - it's true

simply by your being alive. But, sometimes you can forget those simple

truths. "

i dont think this one is completely true. some people are not valuable, worthy

human beings.

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[Guest guest]

asperger women:

i think societal structures make it easier for them to be invisible. many are

passive rather than noticeably aggressive when upset. that is the thing that

gets boys dxd. girls usually are more passive anyway, whether by nature or

nurture or both, i dont know.

girls are rewarded for eyes down, " modest " demeanor amongst many groups in

society. they can take on subservient roles, eg maid, housekeeper and be

praised for modesty in many circles still.

nunneries would once have been a good refuge for as women, but i think many

still live in supported accomodation. it is called marriage. there are certain

types of men who love a passive, modest woman who stays home.

others would be artists, musicians, dancers, actors - where

eccentricity/ " outrageous " behaviour is more accepted and even often obligatory.

many as women work with children or old people. socially less demanding and

stims can be worked into the job.

in old times, many would have been medicine women i think, or herbalists. one

of my daughters, who has some as characteristics is doing horticulture because

she loves to be alone nurturing plants. she has been knowledgeable about herbs

from early childhood, but i was not the source of her knowledge.

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[Guest guest]

> asperger women:

> i think societal structures make it easier for them to be

> invisible. many are passive rather than noticeably aggressive when

> upset. that is the thing that gets boys dxd. girls usually are

> more passive anyway, whether by nature or nurture or both, i dont

> know.

That's what Attwood always says, and it may be true of some people,

but I think there's also another factor: Even girls who are

aggressive are not noticed the same way boys who are aggressive are.

I know that when I was " aggressive " , it was put down *much* more to

" unladylike " (i.e. not conforming to the expected gender stereotype)

behavior than to anything neurological. Other things were described

as " hysteria " -- there is an entire language for describing females

that is absent when describing males. (Aggressive females may also

receive the diagnosis " borderline personality " later in life, where

aggressive males rarely receive that diagnosis.)

> girls are rewarded for eyes down, " modest " demeanor amongst many

> groups in society. they can take on subservient roles, eg maid,

> housekeeper and be praised for modesty in many circles still

> nunneries would once have been a good refuge for as women, but i

> think many still live in supported accomodation. it is called

> marriage. there are certain types of men who love a passive, modest

> woman who stays home.

I have thought often that if I had lived in a different time and place

I could easily have become an anchoress.

> others would be artists, musicians, dancers, actors - where

> eccentricity/ " outrageous " behaviour is more accepted and even often

> obligatory.

> many as women work with children or old people. socially less

> demanding and stims can be worked into the job.

I find children *incredibly* socially demanding, although I like

babies a lot because they don't talk yet usually (which cuts down one

major source of social overload).

But Margaret wrote a book about working as a chaplain for people

with Alzheimer's, which she said was a less socially demanding

environment than most places.

I do think that autistic women are less likely to be diagnosed. But I

think it is only sometimes and partly something intrinsic about us.

When I was on IRC, I used a gender-neutral handle (female handles can

cause a lot of trouble) and was used once as an example of the

difference between male and female autistic people (I was the " male "

example). That among other things shows I must have a lot in common

with a lot of autistic males, on an intrinsic level anyway.

But as soon as people's perceptions of women start filtering into

their judgements about my actions, then they often *perceive* me

differently than they would perceive an autistic male -- they assign

ideas to me that have to do with their perceptions of women rather

than what they are looking at, and those ideas take over the shape of

how they see me.

There may be things about me that are different intrinsically from

autistic males (although so far the autistic person I think that is

most similar to me has been a male, if that means anything), but I

think a lot of the rest of it has to do with perception. The same

thing happens in reverse, too, where autistic males who are passive

(and there are a lot of them) are considered sissies (not performing

according to gender expectations, again), not autistics. (Just as

many aggressive autistic girls are considered unladylike, not autistics.)

The story is more complicated than just one factor or one other

factor, undoubtedly.

[Guest guest]

Message: 13

Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 19:20:30 -0800

Subject: Re: Accepting my AS

Hey Kaiden... do all autistics have this reaction to casein? just

wondering cause I can tolerate a lot of dairy... it doesn't make me

hallucinate like some other autistcis acqunaintance of mine...

?

dani

eggnog gives me violent diarhea (cant spell that word) within an hour and almost

immediately, i am very flushed and sleepy. i dare not drink the stuff even if

it is yum. the consequences of sleeping too deeply are too dire to contemplate.

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[Guest guest]

wrote:

> I get that reaction sometimes, but I have not noticed any correlation

> between such events and any possible causative factor. Certainly there

> is no correlation between consumption of dairy products and these events.

>

> > Kept yelling and DH

>

> Designated hitter? Bah. Real pitchers swing a bat.

DH, or Dear Hubby decided to play detective when I would have such episodes.

He was the one who noticed that I would have these reactions to certain

things I ate or drank. Milk and ice cream don't bother me. Dick has lactose

intolerance and when he has dairy products he spends over an hour in the

bathroom afterward. He said that what he goes through is not the same as

what I go through.

> > came in and

> > declared that my reaction was not normal and I should see a doctor.

>

> No kidding it's not normal-- imagine if it was. Egg nog would probably

> be illegal if it were.

He got really worried because that was the worse he had ever seen me. It has

been that bad before, but he had just never seen it. He started drilling me

that night " Now just what did you eat or drink this time? " I was like, " Can

we save the interrogation until I no longer feel like I'm dying? " ;-)

Take care,

Gail :-)

[Guest guest]

I agree. Anyone in a lot of pain or sick is not going to function as well

as they would if they felt OK, whether they're autistic or neurotypical.

They might be dysfunctional in different ways though, but still....

Norah

>

> Reply-To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 08:21:34 -0000

> To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Subject: Re: Accepting my AS

>

> I do think certain physical things (and I'm not sure about that one in

> particular, not enough reliable data, too much hype) may be more

> common in autism, and that someone who's in pain or allergic or sick

> is going to function less well and fall back on less-energy-involving

> ways of dealing with the world (and for an autistic person those ways

> of dealing with the world look autistic), but that's different than

> saying that they cause autism.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Right - I tend to be less meltdown-resistant when I'm fatigued, especially

if I have a headache. I have a suicidal friend who I *know* would be far

less suicidal if she wasn't in constant pain. She's in so much pain, I

don't even try to talk her out of it, I just thank her for not killing

herself because she's a friend and I'd miss her.

Re: Accepting my AS

> I agree. Anyone in a lot of pain or sick is not going to function as well

> as they would if they felt OK, whether they're autistic or neurotypical.

> They might be dysfunctional in different ways though, but still....

>

> Norah

[Guest guest]

Norah Willett wrote:

> I can relate to the place you remember as being accepted; the only

> problem with me is I keep going back & wishing I were there or could

> find someplace like that again & it'll never happen.

Again, this sort of ties in with my post entitled " Interesting

self-observation. " Ever since that special year and a half in

1990-1991, I have had this tendency to dwell in that past year...

thinking of that time, replaying events in my mind, looking at my

various artifacts from that time period (I have a box I call my

" treasure chest " that contains many physical reminders of that period of

time, mostly, as well as others). This reminiscing I did triggered

complex emotions (which have always been difficult for me)... there was

the good feeling of recounting good experiences, and reliving them, so

to speak, but there was a melancholia too, and it centered on the fact

that I knew there was no going back. The circumstances that made that

time special for me have changed; I changed, and as soon as 1992, I

realized that I had changed too much to go back. Simply putting myself

in the same physical place, and the same role (college student, etc),

would not recreate the particular circumstance that made it special.

I still have this tendency, to dwell in the past and to simulataneously

be happy and melancholy over it. When I was actively depressed, I used

to do this a lot more, and the thought that this kind of thing

(happiness) woiuld never happen to me again was foremost. Now I have

hope that I will again have that level of happiness... I have no

specific plan as to how to make it happen, but I am hopeful. I am

relatively happy now, even if it does not show sometimes (I can be

pretty cantankerous, on the list and off... I am kind of a disagreeable

being in general), but I know that more is possible.

> I mostly agree with what people say about me too, and that I'm not

> very likeable but don't know why, but many times I'm able to forget

> this if I'm not around people, so I manage not to fall into as deep a

> depression as you did.

For what it is worth, I don't find you unlikable at all. Many people

have found you so in the past, but that does not mean everyone does.

> When I'm with people sometimes I can imagine

> how they must see me, and it's not a pretty picture, both physically

> and mentally, so I can't imagine why anyone would choose to be

> friends with me.

Maybe your view of yourself is not the same one they have.

> But having a roommate--wow! I was only able to have a roommate twice

> in my life. Both times I either worried the whole time I was somehow

> offending them, or I kept comparing my life to theirs, seeing htey

> had friends & I didn't and so on, and it was so painful I was happy

> it ended and I never wanted to repeat it! I've heard other Aspies

> having problems of one sort or another with roommates.

I think this worked for me because my roommate was as asocial and

depressed as I was. Actually, in the beginning, I was not depressed,

but he was. He attempted suicide when we lived together in the dorms,

which I did not find out about until much later. He took a great number

of sleeping pills, but the only effect was that he spent a day and a

half just about paralyzed, in bed and unable to get up... but he slept

so much anyway that I did not even notice that anything was unusual.

> This is how I felt when I read aobut social anxiety disorder &

> avoidant personality disorder.

I have never read any case histories about avoidant PD, nor the DSM

criteria, but it is interesting that, in an online personality disorder

test, I tested high for avoidant, as well as many others. In addition,

my aforementioned female friend (who was recently dx as AS) was once

diagnosed as avoidant PD, in an inpatient hospital setting.

> I've always been obsessed with " what is wrong with me, why can't I

> have friends " . Right before learning about social anxiety I thought

> my problem was my looks and dreamed about having cosmetic surgery,

> even though I couldn't afford it. I read a book about someone who

> had that and people started treating her better, though she had a new

> set of problems. I have a hard time accepting how ugly I am as well

> and that I'll never look better, only worse as I get older.

Not everyone cares about that. I have no doubt that it makes things

worse, but the people that are that superficial to begin with probably

are not the type that would accept someone that is different

personality-wise and pretty.

> > I immediately flashed to the things I had read about AS, and how

> > similar some of them were to the experience of that night. I was

> > engaged in a way that I had not been before.

>

> YOu mean not picking up on social signals?

In part... and just the general obliviousness. The funny thing is that

the female that was supposed to be my date not only did not like me, but

advised that my semi-friend acquaintance never see me again, and she

said I was like a stalker or something. Now, I have never stalked

anyone; quite the opposite, in fact. If someone rejects me, I tend to

forget that they even exist after that. As I see it, you have one

chance with me... blow that, and you don't exist anymore, unless there

are unusual circumstances.

That was kind of the situation I was in at about the time that I went

into my voluntary exile in late 1991. Just before that, my first (and,

to this date, only) serious relationship (which had lasted just over a

year) ended. It would take another 26kb post to describe that

dynamic... suffice it to say that she had wanted out of the relationship

for some time, but lacked the guts to end it on her own. She hinted to

me that she wanted out (and the hints escalated in obviousness to the

point that any NT would probably think I am an idiot for having missed

them all), but she did not want to do the dirty work herself.

Over the summer in 1991, when she went back to the El Centro, CA area to

spend the summer with her parents, and with me in my first apartment a

few miles off campus, it all began to seep in... I knew it was over. So

when she came back in September, just before school started again, and

sheepishly stated that she " didn't want a boyfriend anymore, " my

response was a dispassionate " Fine. " I think that really shocked her,

and she suddenly had things to do that required her immediate attention,

and she left.

In the next month or two, she began to come round for alleged reasons

that defied logic. The first time, she said she had a problem with her

computer, so she came by to ask about it... but it made little sense to

come over to my place without the computer; it would have been more

logical to call on the phone, so she could recreate the problem with the

computer and describe it to me, or else just ask me to come over to her

apartment. In that visit, she never did get to what the compute problem

was-- she immediately changed the subject and asked if I was seeing

anyone, how I was doing, et cetera.

She came by a few more times, with other obviously invented reasons, and

I was polite but somewhat aloof. It was over, as far as I was

concerned; she had wanted out, and she got her wish-- end of story. If

I had any intention of getting back with her, I would not have moved 50

miles away.

> > That is not necesarily so. Knowing what the problem has been can

> > help you devise workaround strategies. For one, you can possibly

> > find a kindred spirit in someone else that is not normal. It need

> > not be someone with the same condition; anyone that is out of the

> > mainstream group can probably identify with a lot of your issues.

>

> That's true. But for some reason when I'm with someone like that I

> immediately think that they're going to think I'm too superficial.

You don't seem so to me. What makes you think that they would perceive

you so? (was that a shrink answer or what?)

> And I always have to feel like I have to change myself in some way to

> be accepted by them. Like I have to renounce the world somehow, say

> everything NT's do is bad or everything so-called " nornal " people do

> is bad, say I hate pop culture, popular music, clothes, etc., have a

> really far-left or far-right set of politics, or something in order

> to belong to the " not normal " group. I gues this is more neurotic

> stuff.

There are billions of people on the planet... it is illogical to think

that not one of them would like to have you as a friend.

> YEs, that's for sure. Because that's what I do, totally isolate

> myself as much as possible so no one has the chance to reject me. I

> don't even ask people to have lunch with me at work. I'm afraid to

> walk to the bus stop with a co-worker because I'm afraid she'll start

> leaving early or late to avoid me!

I don't really have a response for that. It is unfortunate.

One thing that comes to mind is that a person's perception of herself

has a bearing on how others see her. A person that is comfortable with

herself, and who geniunely likes herself, has sort of a catchy kind of

charisma that seems to make people want to be around her. At least this

is what I understand to be the case. I have never actually seen this

myself, but others (including one spectrum male) have said that they are

drawn to people that are confident about who they are.

> 1. Oh yes I am, even one of my past therapists said I was.

What context would surround such a comment from a therapist?

> 2. But I've seen your picture & you're certainly not. I think your

> self-perception is a remnant of your depression!

A picture at what age? The only modern picture of me that I have

announced to the list was the one that was in that newspaper article in

which I was featured... was that it? I avoid distributing any recent

photos, because I so dislike how I look.

> Where is the doctor located who diagnosed your friend?

Right here in Tucson, Arizona. He is a wonderful psychiatrist... one in

a million.

> Do you think the fact that there's no one from my childhood to tell

> how I was then might be what's stopping them from diagnosing me????

The first four diagnoses I have were done without any words from my

parents. Those were my AS diagnoses. The autism dx came from the ones

that did the full history workup.

> (I never had anywhere near this amount of testing. No one from my

> childhood. I had the Gilliam Asperger Disorder Scale (GADS), the

> Millon something or other which was a test to find out mental

> illness, and some tests to see hhow well I understood prosody and

> idioms. The last doctor I saw didn't give me any formal tests, but

> he did ask quite extensive questions aobut my childhood and discussed

> levels of things with me, like what level of interest in a topic

> would be considered AS-like.

What were your results on those? I seem to recall that you may have

told me in the past, but I cannot recall. I did the Gilliam tests for

autism and AS, and sent them both to Dr. Gilliam for scoring, and I

scored slightly higher on the autism one than the AS one... my

stereotyped behavior score for autism hit the 92nd percentile.

Self-scoring tests can give a clue about things like this, but there are

a lot of problems inherent with them too. A person's perception of his

or her strengths may not match what is obvious to outside observers (and

the reverse can be true too). If a person really wants an AS dx, he

will tend to subconsciously skew the answers toward that, and if he does

not want the dx, he will tend to skew the answers away from the AS

result. In addition, there is question about whether the traits that

tests like the AQ look for are true indicators of AS. As an example, my

dad is definitely NT, no doubt about that, and he took the AQ and scored

into the autistic range. He noted that if he had taken the test decades

ago, the results would have been different. Now, he lives (and prefers)

a relatively solitary existence, but it's not a function of AS.

That said, your AQ/EQ/SQ test results don't look like AS much at all.

> Oh yeah he might, I get this from reading various posts in various

> places from NT spouses and partners of suspected Aspies. Some of

> them are quite insistent on their spouse/partner accepting their AS

> and how much they are in denial and all the problems that is causing

> in the relationship, etc., etc.

That does not mean that it is necessarily adversarial, as if you have to

call yourself an aspie as a future defense against a hypothetical person

that might want to say you are aspie. You can't make decisions on

things like that based on how hypothetical people may react. If you

remember, we had a list member not long ago who very obviously had AS or

autism, but her partner insisted that she did NOT have it. This guy

thought she had read about the traits and so she thought she had them,

et cetera.

The thrust is that none of what other people say matters. What matters

is the truth, not what other people think. You can't control what they

say or think. Them thinking you have AS is just one in a million things

they can say that would start an argument.

> Meyer has a thing on his

> website about this very issue, and the tone of it seems to be how to

> get the Aspie to accept their AS, and how their communication style

> is harming the relationship, bla, bla, as if the AS one is always in

> the wrong and the sainted NT could never, never possibly have done

> anything to cause problems!!!!!

Yes, I have heard from multiple sources what a traitor he is to the

autistic cause in terms of relationships. I have not seen it firsthand,

and so I did not mention it in my rant against Meyer on the other list,

but it is something I have heard from a number of credible people.

[Guest guest]

wrote:

>One thing that comes to mind is that a person's perception of herself

>has a bearing on how others see her. A person that is comfortable with

>herself, and who geniunely likes herself, has sort of a catchy kind of

>charisma that seems to make people want to be around her. At least this

>is what I understand to be the case. I have never actually seen this

>myself, but others (including one spectrum male) have said that they are

>drawn to people that are confident about who they are.

I don't know about charisma, but I know many people avoid

those who seem " desperate. " And that includes " desperate

for friends, " unfortunately. There are AS-diagnosed young

men who are so eager to have a girlfriend, for example,

that they tend to think any female who isn't openly cruel

to them is signaling she wants to be their girlfriend.

And I have come across people occasionally who seemed so

grateful for any attention that I backed off, afraid I'd

end up feeling obligated to expend attention when I didn't

want to.

My usual spiel: " Making friends " via social contact does

not work for me (a fact I attribute to my particular

constellation of autism, as produced by a combination of

genetics, physiology, circumstance, and experience).

Although I can " act friendly " for short periods of time

(e.g., at work), that kind of " friendly " interaction does

not lead anywhere. It is a very short one-act play. The

way to make friends (for me) is to interact with people

over a long period of time in situations where the focus

is on a topic/activity of strong mutual interest.

Interacting with the focus NOT on interaction allows me

to be with other people much more comfortably. It also

allows other people to overlook my failure to interact

" appropriately " (or sufficiently, by NT terms) and to

get a sense of my mental assets.

Jane

[Guest guest]

SNIP

> Fill other 1/2 of mug with Heavy Whipping Cream. (I find that

> half-and-half or even whole milk doesn't quite do the trick for

> me.)

>

> Is there a stronger form of cream than " heavy whipping " btw? >

DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

>

>

Oh my creeeeeeam-I crave it regularly and then feel unpleasant after

binging.

I love cream I could lick it up off the counter and in fact have done so

when i have occasionally spilled it...

i said that to a woman once (NT) during a picnic...she was a nurse's

aide, very 'into' nascar, which I found ridiculous, and we were standing

around discussing things we loved, she said she loved those nascar men

with a passion...

I said I loved cream straight from the carton,mmmmmmmmmmmmShe just hung

her mouth open, like " What? " Your heart must be so damaged you walking

heart attack.

Yet I was the physically fit one there and she was very big with bad

acne, not that there's anything wrong with that. She just looked at me

like I was a toad after that.

I personally like toads, but I don't think she would've.

I am rambling.

Kim

________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

hey denise!

the only thing better than whipping cream (altho I use it for teh creamy

sensation of eating it, not any after affect) is devon double cream....

48% milk fat baby... a localk dairy here makes it but the real thing is

usually tucked in a corner of the dairy shelf, imported from devon

england, and about $3.60CAD...

I have no idea whether casien and fat content are related, but I

seriously crave creamy foods when I am stressed... and dairy has always

been a craving...

don't think I am that affected by dairy tho...

dani

DeGraf wrote:

> This message from Kaiden Fox arched across the cosmos:

> >Well, there is one way to chemically test it, and it's the perfect

> time of

> >year.

> >

> >Slam down a pint of eggnog.

>

> Keep in mind that not all auties have our reaction to casein -- just like

> not all of us have a reaction to gluten/wheat products. So it's not

> quite

> an errorproof test.

>

> Oh, and for those that aren't into egg-nog, you can always follow my

> favorite recipe:

>

> Make 1/2 mug of either powdered chai or hot chocolate.

> Fill other 1/2 of mug with Heavy Whipping Cream. (I find that

> half-and-half or even whole milk doesn't quite do the trick for me.)

>

> Is there a stronger form of cream than " heavy whipping " btw? That's

> what I

> use all the time at home for the " casein reaction " that I get (which

> is so

> powerful that there's no way NTs could be having it and not be

> arrested for

> drunk-driving or something) but I'd like to get my hands on something

> even

> stronger if I can.

>

>

> DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Norah

Norah Willett wrote:

> Dani,

>

> But most Aspies are much more articulate than me and they get DX'd. These

> doctors I saw are ones that see a lot of Asperger and autistic

> patients, but

> I think probably mostly men and children. The last one I saw said he has

> about 200 people with AS in his practice, either as patients or parents of

> the patients.

okay so again with the " 1 in 4 autistics are male " thing... pah!

>

> I'm not really sure either why women Aspies are harder to recognize.

> I did

> read somewhere that girls perseverate about things that are more

> mainstream,

> such as horses. Or that women in general are more socially adept, so that

> it might follow that women Aspies might be more able to pass as

> normal. But

> I don't know if the experts really know!!!

dead right! I was thinking today, my perseveration often revolve around

myself, and my sons issues too, and the verbal discussion of these

issues can become a perseveration for me... unfortunately that can just

be interpreted as a " nag " or a " hypochondriac " or soem other personality

label for women...

and yes that was my point, I mean at least in our most of western

society men are taught to be individual and women are taught to only

care for others, and that they have no worth if they don't care ofr

others... (that is why we get dx with depression, or personality

disorider, or nuerosis, instead of something they can't blame us for

(sorry guys if this is seeming rantish but I am sooo socik of the crap

affecting, my health care, my mental health, and my family relationhips!)

in fact now that I think about it, I WANT TO BE DXd with autism so I

don't have to deal with all these jusdgements about behavior I can no

more control than a pschizophrenic person can reduce his psychitic

episodes by wishing them away! that is the bottom line...

and maybe if I then hadthe space to get to know myself at that level,

and didn't have the constant feeling of disaapointing the entire world

for not being able ot pull myself up by my bootstraps, MAYBE I would be

able to improve my interactions with the world and my quality of life in

general.!

>

> I know that doctors are more likely to see a " mental illness " in women

> than

> in men!

>

> I've been on AS lists & forums for 2+ years now and still am no closer to

> accepting myself, which of course is not the fault of the people on the

> lists, but is my fault! I don't know why I have this blockage to

> acceptance

> of myself! I just keep seeing everyone as better than me--whether in

> social

> skills (NT's) or brains & imagination (Aspies, auties & some NT's as

> well).

> Plus even most people with AS seem to get along better and have more

> friends

> than I do, or at least as many as they want.

and having said that, it is true that dealing with a general lack of

self esteem, and not knowing how or where to get started, is VERY

difficult to figure out in the face of the fact that no professionals

out there can help you deal with the combination of developlemtn and

psychological (or what I like to call regular life issues) problems...

wish I had some answers for you, but I thank you for this processing

today....

>

> Norah

>

>

>

> >

> > Reply-To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> > Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 19:13:37 -0800

> > To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> > Subject: Re: Accepting my AS

> >

> > and of course I know one reason you can't get a dx my dear... you're too

> > articulate by half, and really, no psychiatrist in their right mind

> > would be easily convinced to dx you with a " developlemental disabilty "

> > UNLESS! they are in the habit of identifying these issues in high

> > functioning adults...! unless they are open minded to letting go of

> > slotting you into a mental illness dx because you are a woman... don't

> > forget you are dealin gwitha medical system where women are still sent

> > home with valium when they should be treated for heart attacks !

> >

> > I believe I am ASD, but I have depression, mental anxiety disorde,

> > chronic generalized anxiety, SAD, ADHD, Fibrmyaliga, PMS, pre menopause,

> > and sometimes a hell of a lot of rage!

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

This message from danielle strom arched across the cosmos:

>the only thing better than whipping cream (altho I use it for teh creamy

>sensation of eating it, not any after affect) is devon double cream....

>48% milk fat baby... a localk dairy here makes it but the real thing is

>usually tucked in a corner of the dairy shelf, imported from devon

>england, and about $3.60CAD...

Oooh, I'll have to check the local stores to see if they carry anything

like that!! I bet that one of the organic-type stores does...yum!

I started out thinking it was just the feel or flavor of the cream that

attracted me. Then I realized, after enjoying a particularly creamy chai

last year, that I become *really* relaxed and affectionate when I have

cream products, just as if I were high on my migraine medication.

What's really weird is that while I become essentially " drunk " or " high " if

I have cream products, I *don't* get that effect from alcohol. I was

startled to find, after a few trials earlier this year, that if I drank a

lot, eventually my body would become sick, but I got none of the

relaxation, joy, or other " good " effects I'd heard come with alcohol. I'd

get a hangover within an hour or two of drinking, be sick for about the

following 4 hours, and then it'd all be over -- no effects the next day.

>I have no idea whether casien and fat content are related, but I

>seriously crave creamy foods when I am stressed... and dairy has always

>been a craving...

Same here. I think that part of my craving is psychological (I love the

relaxation effect) but I know some of it is because I have an allergy to

dairy products in particular. If I drink/eat them, it triggers asthma

problems, congestion, and slows (or halts) my gastrointestinal tract --

when I was a baby, my mother had to do without milk products because if

*she* had dairy products and then breastfed me, I'd projectile vomit and

develop a " croupy " cough. (I had to be tested for cystic fibrosis at one

point because the amount of mucus I was producing evidently looked like CF,

ugh.) My childhood allergist told me that it's common for people with

food allergies to crave whatever it is their body can't handle, even if

they have never had a restricted diet and therefore aren't

" psychologically " driven towards the allergen.

Interestingly, while I used to have ill reactions as a kid to dairy

products in general, as an adult I only have trouble with certain brands,

so I can have " heavy whipping cream " by Clover Stornetta but not " skim

milk " by Berkeley Farms for example! The " bad " brands and anything made

using their products (pasta, pastries, and breads for example) will make me

nauseous, bloated, and sweaty. I'm not sure what the exact difficulty is

or why it seems to be related so directly to certain farms. The only guess

I've ever come up with is that perhaps some places use that rGBT hormone

and I can't handle it -- I know that my preferred dairy doesn't use it at all.

DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

[Guest guest]

gprobertson@... wrote:

>asperger women:

>

>i think societal structures make it easier for them to be invisible. many are

passive rather than noticeably aggressive when upset. that is the thing that

gets boys dxd. girls usually are more passive anyway, whether by nature or

nurture or both, i dont know.

>

>

same for the smaller guys too. How agressive can you be when everybody

else is bigger and better coordinated?

>girls are rewarded for eyes down, " modest " demeanor amongst many groups in

society. they can take on subservient roles, eg maid, housekeeper and be

praised for modesty in many circles still.

>

>nunneries would once have been a good refuge for as women, but i think many

still live in supported accomodation. it is called marriage. there are certain

types of men who love a passive, modest woman who stays home.

>

>others would be artists, musicians, dancers, actors - where

eccentricity/ " outrageous " behaviour is more accepted and even often obligatory.

>

>

same for guys.

>many as women work with children or old people. socially less demanding and

stims can be worked into the job.

>

>in old times, many would have been medicine women i think, or herbalists. one

of my daughters, who has some as characteristics is doing horticulture because

she loves to be alone nurturing plants. she has been knowledgeable about herbs

from early childhood, but i was not the source of her knowledge.

>

>

and the guys would have been shamans.

Nowadays we (of either sex) mostly become geeks.

Ride the Music

AndyTiedye

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I had that. I was told by a friend that I wasn't *violent* enough to

be autistic. When I explained my spectrum of traits, the person reminded me

that autism wasn't my problem - that my problem was PTSD. I concur. I have

autism, but it's not a problem.

Now, things are compounded by the fact that I have reached more-than-full

size. I'm still not violent, but I come across as frightening when I'm in

the grips of a meltdown - as if I could seriously injure (or kill) myself or

others.

----- Original Message -----

> >

> same for the smaller guys too. How agressive can you be when everybody

> else is bigger and better coordinated?

[Guest guest]

> lol. i was told by a parent that i could not be autistic because my

> life is better than hers. lol. mindboggling assumptions there.

I once, I don't remember where, heard an NT parent say that an author

was not autistic because the author had more of a social life than the

parent did in college. I fail to see how this computes.

I have seen autistic people told they can't be autistic because

" Autistic people can't do [x] " , where [x] is any number of things that

some autistic people can do. I've also seen a lot of autistic people

told they can't be autistic because " Autistic people can't do [y] " ,

where [y] is not only something that some autistic people can do, but

that the person being accused of non-autisticness *can't* do.

[Guest guest]

>

> Reply-To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 10:34:04 -0700

> To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Subject: Re: Accepting my AS

> wrote:

>

> I still have this tendency, to dwell in the past and to simulataneously

> be happy and melancholy over it. When I was actively depressed, I used

> to do this a lot more, and the thought that this kind of thing

> (happiness) woiuld never happen to me again was foremost. Now I have

> hope that I will again have that level of happiness... I have no

> specific plan as to how to make it happen, but I am hopeful. I am

> relatively happy now, even if it does not show sometimes (I can be

> pretty cantankerous, on the list and off... I am kind of a disagreeable

> being in general), but I know that more is possible.

It's good you're relatively happy now and have hope that you probably will

be very happy at some point again. There's nothing wrong with looking back

on a happier time and having reminders of it. I remember a therapst thought

I was weird because I didn't have any reminders or mementos of happy times

I'd had.

>

> Maybe your view of yourself is not the same one they have.

That's possible....

>

> I have never read any case histories about avoidant PD, nor the DSM

> criteria, but it is interesting that, in an online personality disorder

> test, I tested high for avoidant, as well as many others. In addition,

> my aforementioned female friend (who was recently dx as AS) was once

> diagnosed as avoidant PD, in an inpatient hospital setting.

There are some things that look similar. In addition, according to the last

doctor I saw, many Aspies develop either avoidant PD or social anxiety

disorder as a response to rejection and bullying they've received for so

long. So she could have had both.

> Not everyone cares about that. I have no doubt that it makes things

> worse, but the people that are that superficial to begin with probably

> are not the type that would accept someone that is different

> personality-wise and pretty.

You never know.

> That was kind of the situation I was in at about the time that I went

> into my voluntary exile in late 1991. Just before that, my first (and,

> to this date, only) serious relationship (which had lasted just over a

> year) ended. It would take another 26kb post to describe that

> dynamic... suffice it to say that she had wanted out of the relationship

> for some time, but lacked the guts to end it on her own. She hinted to

> me that she wanted out (and the hints escalated in obviousness to the

> point that any NT would probably think I am an idiot for having missed

> them all), but she did not want to do the dirty work herself.

Unfortunately there are people like that....I'm sorry to hear you were

involved with one of them!

>

> Over the summer in 1991, when she went back to the El Centro, CA area to

> spend the summer with her parents, and with me in my first apartment a

> few miles off campus, it all began to seep in... I knew it was over. So

> when she came back in September, just before school started again, and

> sheepishly stated that she " didn't want a boyfriend anymore, " my

> response was a dispassionate " Fine. " I think that really shocked her,

> and she suddenly had things to do that required her immediate attention,

> and she left.

LOL!! She probably expected you to beg her to stay, or get mad, or

something!

>

> She came by a few more times, with other obviously invented reasons, and

> I was polite but somewhat aloof. It was over, as far as I was

> concerned; she had wanted out, and she got her wish-- end of story. If

> I had any intention of getting back with her, I would not have moved 50

> miles away.

She probably was trying to get back, but it's a good thing you didn't. Some

guys might have with disastrous results.

>

> You don't seem so to me. What makes you think that they would perceive

> you so? (was that a shrink answer or what?)

LOL!! Well, maybe I am superficial in a way. I don't hate pop culture, or

the world, or clothes, for instance. I like sports. I don't want to move

into the wilderness. Lots of things. I'm not as intellectual as I could

be. I'm not appalled by mass advertising--it's annoying, sure, but I don't

get bent out of shape by it. I don't list to NPR. (My current therapist,

for instance, hated all the advertising you see at our major league baseball

stadium here. I've gone to many games there and while I'm not in love with

it either, it doesn't bother me that much. It probably should.)

>

> One thing that comes to mind is that a person's perception of herself

> has a bearing on how others see her. A person that is comfortable with

> herself, and who geniunely likes herself, has sort of a catchy kind of

> charisma that seems to make people want to be around her. At least this

> is what I understand to be the case. I have never actually seen this

> myself, but others (including one spectrum male) have said that they are

> drawn to people that are confident about who they are.

Yes, that's definitely the case.

>

>

>> 1. Oh yes I am, even one of my past therapists said I was.

>

> What context would surround such a comment from a therapist?

I don't even remember now. I think I was saying how unattractive I was, and

he didn't want to foster any false hope or something in me. He made some

comment too about how men with high-paying jobs usually look for and can get

very beautiful women, so I should look for a man in a lower-paying job.

>

>> 2. But I've seen your picture & you're certainly not. I think your

>> self-perception is a remnant of your depression!

>

> A picture at what age? The only modern picture of me that I have

> announced to the list was the one that was in that newspaper article in

> which I was featured... was that it? I avoid distributing any recent

> photos, because I so dislike how I look.

I saw the one from the newspaper article, and also the one in the photos on

this list when you were in your teens--I think that was you, or maybe I'm

confusing you with someone else???

>

>> Where is the doctor located who diagnosed your friend?

>

> Right here in Tucson, Arizona. He is a wonderful psychiatrist... one in

> a million.

How many sessions did it take him to do this? I wonder if he would take

someone from out of town??? I really don't feel that I'll ever believe any

doctor about myself unless they've diagnosed another adult

female.....although I've heard from another person on another forum that the

first doctor I saw is certainly very respected in the autistic community and

has diagnosed a lot of adults.

> The first four diagnoses I have were done without any words from my

> parents. Those were my AS diagnoses. The autism dx came from the ones

> that did the full history workup.

So maybe if I had someone from my childhood it would change my diagnosis!

>

> What were your results on those? I seem to recall that you may have

> told me in the past, but I cannot recall. I did the Gilliam tests for

> autism and AS, and sent them both to Dr. Gilliam for scoring, and I

> scored slightly higher on the autism one than the AS one... my

> stereotyped behavior score for autism hit the 92nd percentile.

I scored a 93 on the Gilliam AS test, which was in the 32nd percentile &

certainly within the AS range, or the lower end of it anyway from what I

read about the test somewhere. But the doctor who gave me this also asked

me many other questions about my life, and while he felt I had some

Aspergerish traits, he felt they were caused by the anxiety disorder and

AvPD and by an overprotected upbringing.

>

> That said, your AQ/EQ/SQ test results don't look like AS much at all.

Some of the answers on the AQ I could go either way, and I do try to go the

AS way as much as possible on most of the people things because I really do

feel I'm not good in social situations. But it also asks if you LIKE

social situations. I have a lot of trouble answering that, for when I feel

comfortable in them and not like people are judging me, I usually do like

them. Sometimes I feel like I multitask well, other times I don't, like

when I'm trying to finish something at work by a deadline & keep getting

interrupted.

And they ask about changes on the test-- what kind of changes? For

instnace, we got a new computer system at work. I was happy to know we

were getting one as I thought it'd be an improvement on the old one, which

seemed inconvenient in many ways. But with the new one, problems keep

coming up, and many of the things in our department actually take longer to

do in the new system, making us more behind in our jobs. I had always felt

I was behind on my job anyway. So does this mean I hate change?? Or just

change that makes my life more difficult?

>

> The thrust is that none of what other people say matters. What matters

> is the truth, not what other people think. You can't control what they

> say or think. Them thinking you have AS is just one in a million things

> they can say that would start an argument.

Yes, that's true. And not even a bad thing--it'd be worse if they said I

was a liar when I wasn't, for instance!

>

> Yes, I have heard from multiple sources what a traitor he is to the

> autistic cause in terms of relationships. I have not seen it firsthand,

> and so I did not mention it in my rant against Meyer on the other list,

> but it is something I have heard from a number of credible people.

I will try to find & post the link where I saw the above. I must say I was

shocked someone with AS had wrote it. I'm wonder though if, hearing about

AS so late in life, he may have been hearing bad things about himself all

his life and come to believe them and that if he has AS, it must be bad in

terms of relationships? I don't know....maybe also I misread what he said

and got overly upset about it. I tend to get really upset when I read

anything like this!

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I can understand this and have thought it myself before I knew very much

about autism, and even after. It's from the misunderstanding that autistics

either don't want friends, or don't know how to make friends.

Norah

>

> Reply-To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 10:00:28 -0000

> To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> Subject: RE:Re: Accepting my AS

>

> I once, I don't remember where, heard an NT parent say that an author

> was not autistic because the author had more of a social life than the

> parent did in college. I fail to see how this computes.

[Guest guest]

I neglected to post more explanation of why I'm so bothered by

what partners of AS people write about their partners.

I first learned about AS in late September 2001. I was in a social

anxiety forum on Delphiforums. I had been upset by 9/11/01, but

was reluctant to go to a candlelight vigil in my community,

probably due to social anxiety, but then I started thinking " well,

what good is that going to do anyone " , and I wondered if that

meant there was something wrong with me, even more than I

usually thought.

Anyway, someone on this social anxiety forum told one of the

other posters of the forum (not me) that maybe she had more

than social anxiety. She posted a link to an Asperger's forum

and also a web site. Not everything fit but some of the social

things did, especially one about getting stressed out by social

events.

I was only in the forum a day or so when someone posted me a

link to a forum for partners of AS people, even though I never

said I had a partner. It was awful for someone who was just

thinking they might have AS and who also had social anxiety and

already worried big-time about what otehrs thought of them like I

do. Some of the NT partners of supposed AS people (some of

whom I doubt were really AS based on some of the traits cited)

were very bitter, felt very victimized and mistreated and so on.

So only a few days after learning about AS and thinking I might

have it, I read all the worst things someone could say about the

condition and people who had it, and some people who probably

didn't have it but their spouses somehow misunderstood what

AS was and thought they did. And there was a lot of talk about

these people being in denial about their AS, and what a bad

thing that was.

Then when I read " Pretending to be Normal " by Liane

Holliday-Willey, I unfortunately picked out the very worst and most

embarrassing part--where she runs out of the hair salon with her

hair in foil and into her children's daycare because she forgot

there was a deadline to pick them up---and immediately thought

" Oh that's what AS is!! Oh how embarrassing & lucky I never had

kids because I would have died if I'd done that! " When actually

there are a lot of very good things she has done with her kids

and with her life, that are very much to be admired and certainly

not embarrassing!!!

And then she had a list at the end of this book of what kind of

jobs Aspies should have, and it seemed to say they shouldn't

work with the public or anything having to do with customer

service. I do credit & collections, which is on the phone talking to

customers every day, and during the holiday season everyone in

our company has to also take customer service calls & orders,

returns etc. to help out. So right away I was worrying about my

job & being in the wrong one, etc., etc. When she was just giving

a guideline for what people just starting out should look for, not

saying that people who had been doing OK in jobs & liking them

should immediately quit them because they found out they had

AS!!

I always tend to pick out the worst things anyway. AFter this I

was just terrified of AS and what it might mean to me. I was just

crying on the phone to this doctor, the first one I saw, about how I

thought I had this & it was so awful, bla, bla, bla, and acting like a

total idiot. Even though he didn't even do the evaluation for 6

months after that, I was afraid maybe he didn't want to tell me I

had AS because he was afraid I wasn't able to take it or

something.

We had 3 or 4 sessions, I can't remember how many, and at first

(after the 2nd session, I think) he was saying that I had a lot of

Aspergerish traits, and I again became very upset. After the 3rd

session he still hadn't decided, and he decided to give me a

couple more tests about idioms. (I've never had a problem with

idioms, although I still think I " m subtly literal-minded, such as

thinking Kaiden meant some kind of autism test when he said

" Turing test " . ) Then after a couple weeks I received the written

evaluation, which said even though I had Aspergerish traits, he

didn't believe I had AS or a developmental " disorder " .

The other autism doctor I saw also said he was " tempted " to

diagnose me with AS. This is the one I'll be seeing on January 7

with a new list of traits and incidents I've remembered from

childhood, and also my answers to a couple of lists of traits I've

found.

Sorry this has gotten so long!!

Norah

>

>

> > From: Klein <ascaris1@a...>

> > Reply-To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> > Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 10:34:04 -0700

> > To: AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse

> > Subject: Re: Accepting my AS

>

> > wrote:

> >

> > The thrust is that none of what other people say matters.

What matters

> > is the truth, not what other people think. You can't control

what they

> > say or think. Them thinking you have AS is just one in a

million things

> > they can say that would start an argument.

>

> Yes, that's true. And not even a bad thing--it'd be worse if they

said I

> was a liar when I wasn't, for instance!

> >

[Guest guest]

>

> > lol. i was told by a parent that i could not be autistic because

my

> > life is better than hers. lol. mindboggling assumptions there.

>

> I once, I don't remember where, heard an NT parent say that an

author

> was not autistic because the author had more of a social life

than the

> parent did in college. I fail to see how this computes.

>

> I have seen autistic people told they can't be autistic because

> " Autistic people can't do [x] " , where [x] is any number of things

that

> some autistic people can do. I've also seen a lot of autistic

people

> told they can't be autistic because " Autistic people can't do [y] " ,

> where [y] is not only something that some autistic people can

do, but

> that the person being accused of non-autisticness *can't* do.

>

>

I was just reading Molly Finn's article, " In the Case of Bruno

Bettelheim " , and ran across the following line:

" Very few of the children Bettelheim treated displayed this

syndrome. Indeed, the kind of metaphorical use of language he

attributes to the children he described grows out of precisely the

kind of symbolic thinking autistic children are not capable of. "

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9706/articles/finn.html

Hmmm...apparently she was speaking metaphorically,

otherwise I would have understood what she meant. With so

much red herring in my diet, I can't remember whose side I'm on.

:-D

Dave March