Re: When does it end?

[Guest guest]

How long if not "too soon"? I need more hope than just "eventually" or

"someday

This is the unknown. Nobody can say, but it seems that the average recovery time is 18 months to two years. But meanwhile, you have to pretend you're okay and do whatever you can creatively -- it's part of the healing process, at least it was for me.

"Blind Reason"

a novel of pharmaceutical intrigue

Think your antidepressant is safe? Think again. It's

Unsafe At Any Dose

[Guest guest]

How long if not "too soon"? I need more hope than just "eventually" or

"someday

This is the unknown. Nobody can say, but it seems that the average recovery time is 18 months to two years. But meanwhile, you have to pretend you're okay and do whatever you can creatively -- it's part of the healing process, at least it was for me.

"Blind Reason"

a novel of pharmaceutical intrigue

Think your antidepressant is safe? Think again. It's

Unsafe At Any Dose

[Guest guest]

Hi Aynslie,

Your frustration is understandable. It's been a long road for you.

The good news is that this is not unusual, which means that you're

well on your way to recovery. It does take a long time to recover

from a cold turkey withdrawal. You've put in a lot of that time

already, so you're getting closer and closer to your goal.

mentioned that you are taking some things that are yanking

your chemistry around right now. I believe she recommended that you

discontinue the kava kava. Have you done that yet? ( I'm not seeing

that post, but I'm having a hard time with this new Yahoo format.)

Getting rid of the kava kava should make a difference quite soon.

will be in touch with you in the next couple days about the

St. 's wort. SJW behaves much like an SSRI in the brain, and

could also be creating problems. She needs more info before telling

you to discontinue the SJW, however. Kava kava and SJW are definitely

not a good combo, so getting rid of the kava should help.

I know it seems like forever, but 15 months is not that long in the

context of cold-turkey SSRI withdrawal. See if you can draw some

strength and will from our group members to carry you through the next

few days.

I can think of several people who were feeling the way you are at 15

months, and they all got better. You will too! I'm glad you shared

your concerns. Getting rid of the kava kava and discussing the SJW

will make a difference.

Hang in there. Everybody is pulling for you!

Hugs,

Kim

(co-moderator)

*****************************************************

Remember the Withdrawal Mantra:

" Everything I am feeling is from the withdrawal.

It isn't me. It will pass.

Everything I am feeling is from the withdrawal. "

******************************************************

[Guest guest]

Hi Aynslie,

Your frustration is understandable. It's been a long road for you.

The good news is that this is not unusual, which means that you're

well on your way to recovery. It does take a long time to recover

from a cold turkey withdrawal. You've put in a lot of that time

already, so you're getting closer and closer to your goal.

mentioned that you are taking some things that are yanking

your chemistry around right now. I believe she recommended that you

discontinue the kava kava. Have you done that yet? ( I'm not seeing

that post, but I'm having a hard time with this new Yahoo format.)

Getting rid of the kava kava should make a difference quite soon.

will be in touch with you in the next couple days about the

St. 's wort. SJW behaves much like an SSRI in the brain, and

could also be creating problems. She needs more info before telling

you to discontinue the SJW, however. Kava kava and SJW are definitely

not a good combo, so getting rid of the kava should help.

I know it seems like forever, but 15 months is not that long in the

context of cold-turkey SSRI withdrawal. See if you can draw some

strength and will from our group members to carry you through the next

few days.

I can think of several people who were feeling the way you are at 15

months, and they all got better. You will too! I'm glad you shared

your concerns. Getting rid of the kava kava and discussing the SJW

will make a difference.

Hang in there. Everybody is pulling for you!

Hugs,

Kim

(co-moderator)

*****************************************************

Remember the Withdrawal Mantra:

" Everything I am feeling is from the withdrawal.

It isn't me. It will pass.

Everything I am feeling is from the withdrawal. "

******************************************************

[Guest guest]

Hi Aynslie,

I was just re-reading the list of supplements you are taking, and it

has become more clear to me why you're having such a hard time.

I checked this out with , and here is what she had to say:

Stop the 5-HTP. When you take this in combination with the SJW, you

are causing two opposing effects. But they don't just cancel each

other out; instead they jerk your brain chemistry back and forth,

resulting in a lot of unnecessary discomfort for you.

Stop the B-complex Stress Formula. B-vitamins should not be taken

unless they are in combination with a full range of other nutrients.

This is why we recommend the Supralife, because you get those

all-important B's but they are buffered by many other important

nutrients. When taken by themselves, B-vitamins are much too

energizing for a system damaged by psychotropic drugs.

Stop the Neuro-Optimizer. This is not appropriate for you at this

stage of your recovery.

Stop the kava kava, as I said in my earlier post. Contact

about the SJW if you don't hear from her about in the next couple

days.

Are you taking a combination calcium/magnesium? If so, you are not

getting the desired effect from them. Magnesium and calcium need to

be taken separately, at about 4-hour intervals. I highly recommend

getting them and taking them saparately, as they have a lovely calming

effect.

I commend you on getting all these supplements and being willing to

take them. Willingness is half the battle. Now we just need to get

your protocol straightened out and get you taking the right things at

the right times.

Hang in there, and please keep us posted on what you are taking and

how you are feeling.

Blessings,

Kim

(co-moderator)

**************************************

Remember the Withdrawal Mantra:

" Everything I am feeling is from the withdrawal.

It isn't me. It will pass.

Everything I am feeling is from the withdrawal. "

**************************************

[Guest guest]

Hi Aynslie,

I was just re-reading the list of supplements you are taking, and it

has become more clear to me why you're having such a hard time.

I checked this out with , and here is what she had to say:

Stop the 5-HTP. When you take this in combination with the SJW, you

are causing two opposing effects. But they don't just cancel each

other out; instead they jerk your brain chemistry back and forth,

resulting in a lot of unnecessary discomfort for you.

Stop the B-complex Stress Formula. B-vitamins should not be taken

unless they are in combination with a full range of other nutrients.

This is why we recommend the Supralife, because you get those

all-important B's but they are buffered by many other important

nutrients. When taken by themselves, B-vitamins are much too

energizing for a system damaged by psychotropic drugs.

Stop the Neuro-Optimizer. This is not appropriate for you at this

stage of your recovery.

Stop the kava kava, as I said in my earlier post. Contact

about the SJW if you don't hear from her about in the next couple

days.

Are you taking a combination calcium/magnesium? If so, you are not

getting the desired effect from them. Magnesium and calcium need to

be taken separately, at about 4-hour intervals. I highly recommend

getting them and taking them saparately, as they have a lovely calming

effect.

I commend you on getting all these supplements and being willing to

take them. Willingness is half the battle. Now we just need to get

your protocol straightened out and get you taking the right things at

the right times.

Hang in there, and please keep us posted on what you are taking and

how you are feeling.

Blessings,

Kim

(co-moderator)

**************************************

Remember the Withdrawal Mantra:

" Everything I am feeling is from the withdrawal.

It isn't me. It will pass.

Everything I am feeling is from the withdrawal. "

**************************************

[Guest guest]

Hi Aynslie,

I was just re-reading the list of supplements you are taking, and it

has become more clear to me why you're having such a hard time.

I checked this out with , and here is what she had to say:

Stop the 5-HTP. When you take this in combination with the SJW, you

are causing two opposing effects. But they don't just cancel each

other out; instead they jerk your brain chemistry back and forth,

resulting in a lot of unnecessary discomfort for you.

Stop the B-complex Stress Formula. B-vitamins should not be taken

unless they are in combination with a full range of other nutrients.

This is why we recommend the Supralife, because you get those

all-important B's but they are buffered by many other important

nutrients. When taken by themselves, B-vitamins are much too

energizing for a system damaged by psychotropic drugs.

Stop the Neuro-Optimizer. This is not appropriate for you at this

stage of your recovery.

Stop the kava kava, as I said in my earlier post. Contact

about the SJW if you don't hear from her about in the next couple

days.

Are you taking a combination calcium/magnesium? If so, you are not

getting the desired effect from them. Magnesium and calcium need to

be taken separately, at about 4-hour intervals. I highly recommend

getting them and taking them saparately, as they have a lovely calming

effect.

I commend you on getting all these supplements and being willing to

take them. Willingness is half the battle. Now we just need to get

your protocol straightened out and get you taking the right things at

the right times.

Hang in there, and please keep us posted on what you are taking and

how you are feeling.

Blessings,

Kim

(co-moderator)

**************************************

Remember the Withdrawal Mantra:

" Everything I am feeling is from the withdrawal.

It isn't me. It will pass.

Everything I am feeling is from the withdrawal. "

**************************************

[Guest guest]

<<I didn't get that post. I thought perhaps she hadn't gotten a chance to

address what I was taking yet, so I've been waiting. As soon as she said

that what I was taking might be disrupting things, I stopped taking

everything. Obviously I'm still waiting to hear, so : could you

please repost so I can see what you said?>>

<<For the past 2 or 3 months I have taken daily: Carlson's Fish Oil,

Calcium/Magnesium citrate, Multivitamins, B-Complex Stress formula, Goatein,

Multi-Mineral supplements, 5-HTP, Neuro-Optimizer, St. 's Wort and Kava

Kava. I also take White Chestnut, Cherry Plum, Clematis and Honeysuckle Bach

flower essenses as needed>>

Don't discontinue the fish oil!! How much are you taking? You should

be taking 5 grams (5,000mg) twice a day right now. If you're not

taking that much, increase it today. This stuff is extremely healing.

Keep taking the calcium and Magnesium. Take them separately, not as a

combination pill (see my previous post).

What multi-vitamin are you taking? What multi-mineral are you taking?

Stick with the Goatein. It's great stuff.

The Bach Flower essences can be wonderful, gentle healers. How much

are you taking of each, for what symptoms, and how often?

Kim

(co-moderator)

**************************************

Remember the Withdrawal Mantra:

" Everything I am feeling is from the withdrawal.

It isn't me. It will pass.

Everything I am feeling is from the withdrawal. "

**************************************

[Guest guest]

I found it too hard to try to be creative in the beginning of

withdrawal. More recently though its become easier, so i guess i'm

improving to some extent, though i don't feel as though i have made

that much of an improvement. Maybe its cuz i stopped thinking about

the damage, or maybe part of my creativity is really restored, its

about 19 months now recovering. It sucks but it just takes time.

-joe

> In a message dated 3/27/05 12:55:40 PM Mountain Standard Time,

> elswyth@m... writes:

>

>

> > How long if not " too soon " ? I need more hope than just " eventually " or

> > " someday

>

> This is the unknown. Nobody can say, but it seems that the average

recovery

> time is 18 months to two years. But meanwhile, you have to pretend

you're

> okay and do whatever you can creatively -- it's part of the healing

process, at

> least it was for me.

>

> " Blind Reason "

> a novel of pharmaceutical intrigue

> Think your antidepressant is safe? Think again. It's

> Unsafe At Any Dose

[Guest guest]

Kim,

Are you recommending taking 10 grams a day of fish oil, or 5 split in

two different servings?

-joe

>

> Don't discontinue the fish oil!! How much are you taking? You should

> be taking 5 grams (5,000mg) twice a day right now. If you're not

> taking that much, increase it today. This stuff is extremely healing.

>

[Guest guest]

I wuld take 10g. 5g in the morning, 5g in the evening.

>

> Kim,

>

> Are you recommending taking 10 grams a day of fish oil, or 5 split in

> two different servings?

> -joe

[Guest guest]

Kim,

You said:

> Stop the 5-HTP. When you take this in combination with the SJW, you

> are causing two opposing effects. But they don't just cancel each

> other out; instead they jerk your brain chemistry back and forth,

> resulting in a lot of unnecessary discomfort for you.

Haven't taken it since Friday.

> Stop the B-complex Stress Formula. B-vitamins should not be taken

> unless they are in combination with a full range of other nutrients.

> This is why we recommend the Supralife, because you get those

> all-important B's but they are buffered by many other important

> nutrients. When taken by themselves, B-vitamins are much too

> energizing for a system damaged by psychotropic drugs.

Haven't taken the B-complex since Friday. I went to the Supralife site and I

have to say it's a very confusing site. Do I need to become a member in

order to purchase anything?

> Stop the Neuro-Optimizer. This is not appropriate for you at this

> stage of your recovery.

>

OK. Stopped Friday.

> Stop the kava kava, as I said in my earlier post.

Done.

>Contact about the SJW if you don't hear from her about in the next

couple days.

>

>

Will do.

>

> Are you taking a combination calcium/magnesium? If so, you are not

> getting the desired effect from them. Magnesium and calcium need to

> be taken separately, at about 4-hour intervals. I highly recommend

> getting them and taking them saparately, as they have a lovely calming

> effect.

I do have a calcium/magnesium combo. Will change over to taking them

separately as soon as I can make a trip to the store to buy some.

Aynslie

[Guest guest]

Kim,

You said:

> Don't discontinue the fish oil!!

OK, I won't.

>How much are you taking? You should

> be taking 5 grams (5,000mg) twice a day right now. If you're not

> taking that much, increase it today. This stuff is extremely healing.

OK. Increasing. I wasn't taking anywhere near that amount.

>

> What multi-vitamin are you taking?

Rainbow Light Women's Nutritional System.

>What multi-mineral are you taking?

Ulta Minerals. The brand is my local natural food store.

>

>

> Stick with the Goatein. It's great stuff.

Yep.

>

>

> The Bach Flower essences can be wonderful, gentle healers. How much

> are you taking of each, for what symptoms, and how often?

I usually take a dropper-full when I need it. Clematis to help me stay

grounded. Honeysuckle for grief. Cherry plum for anxiety and a tendency to

let my thoughts and feelings spin out of control. White chestnut for

obsessive thinking.

Aynslie

[Guest guest]

Kim,

You said:

> Don't discontinue the fish oil!!

OK, I won't.

>How much are you taking? You should

> be taking 5 grams (5,000mg) twice a day right now. If you're not

> taking that much, increase it today. This stuff is extremely healing.

OK. Increasing. I wasn't taking anywhere near that amount.

>

> What multi-vitamin are you taking?

Rainbow Light Women's Nutritional System.

>What multi-mineral are you taking?

Ulta Minerals. The brand is my local natural food store.

>

>

> Stick with the Goatein. It's great stuff.

Yep.

>

>

> The Bach Flower essences can be wonderful, gentle healers. How much

> are you taking of each, for what symptoms, and how often?

I usually take a dropper-full when I need it. Clematis to help me stay

grounded. Honeysuckle for grief. Cherry plum for anxiety and a tendency to

let my thoughts and feelings spin out of control. White chestnut for

obsessive thinking.

Aynslie

[Guest guest]

,

You said:

> ** So what you're really telling us is that you're looking for magic. We

> don't have any. Shit happens. I'm not going to tell you it was the drugs,

> because you already know it was the drugs. I'm not going to try to make you

> feel better; it's obvious you don't want to right now.

I'm not looking for magic. I don't believe in magic. I had a distressingly

heavy burden on my heart this morning and I needed to unload it. I needed

someone to hear and acknowledge my feelings and my words, and you did. I

thank you for that. And I know that no one (you included) and nothing can

" make " me feel better, so thank you for not trying. Feeling better is up to

me.

>

> This is so uncomfortable for you. You wish it had never happened. That's

> understandable. But it did happen, and the question is, now, how are you

> going to survive it; what are you going to do with it?

I want to survive it. Yes, so maybe I'm treading water in a heavy dose of

self-pity right now, but I don't want to stay here. All I really want (I

think) is someone who cares, someone other than me. Someone who can help

hold my head above water when I can't find the strength to, because it

matters to them.

>

> So again, we come back to, what are you going to do about it? How are you

> going to find a peaceful place to sit inside yourself with things that have

> already happened--things you can't change?

That I don't know. I'm open to suggestions.

>But there is a chance that maybe some of these people don't have enough sense

of self for this to occur. What are you going to do then?

I don't know.

>So in a way, you are STILL

> under the influence of the drugs, because you believe that you shouldn't

> have to experience this level of discomfort.

Maybe so. Then again, maybe I believe that I shouldn't have to experience

this level of discomfort alone.

>

> Aynslie, the bottom line is, how do you want to live your life? Do you want

> to drown in a sea of dysfunction, or do you want to do what was intended

> with this? Will you continue beating yourself up and telling us how bad a

> person you must be, or will you do what we all were intended to do when we

> run across adversity? Will you look at what you've learned, and will you

> use it to make yourself and your life better? Or will you use it to bash

> and batter yourself, thereby keeping yourself from fully realizing God's

> plan for what you would gain from this?

Actually, I wasn't bashing and battering myself today. I was recalling how I

had bashed and battered myself a few months back, how at THAT time I felt

that I realized that I was a far worse person than I had previously

believed. It was my experience at Mr. Bagel this morning that placed that in

such drastic contrast to what I'm rediscovering about myself. I tend to

overeact emotionally to just about everything these days, and that was what

I did this morning. But the emotions were gushing and I had to express them.

> Aynslie, why don't you come along for the ride? I think you'll like where

> we go :-).

>

As I said the other day, I'm here all the time. I wasn't planning to go

away.

>

> BTW, did you notice that God sent a messenger to tell you you ARE a good

> person, in the form of the person in the coffee shop?

Yes, as a matter of fact I did. If that hadn't happened, I wouldn't have

been so outraged at the fact that I spent so much time thinking I was so

rotten.

I appreciate your non-nonsense approach to things, . I like it when

people say it like it is. Thanks.

Aynslie

[Guest guest]

,

You said:

> ** So what you're really telling us is that you're looking for magic. We

> don't have any. Shit happens. I'm not going to tell you it was the drugs,

> because you already know it was the drugs. I'm not going to try to make you

> feel better; it's obvious you don't want to right now.

I'm not looking for magic. I don't believe in magic. I had a distressingly

heavy burden on my heart this morning and I needed to unload it. I needed

someone to hear and acknowledge my feelings and my words, and you did. I

thank you for that. And I know that no one (you included) and nothing can

" make " me feel better, so thank you for not trying. Feeling better is up to

me.

>

> This is so uncomfortable for you. You wish it had never happened. That's

> understandable. But it did happen, and the question is, now, how are you

> going to survive it; what are you going to do with it?

I want to survive it. Yes, so maybe I'm treading water in a heavy dose of

self-pity right now, but I don't want to stay here. All I really want (I

think) is someone who cares, someone other than me. Someone who can help

hold my head above water when I can't find the strength to, because it

matters to them.

>

> So again, we come back to, what are you going to do about it? How are you

> going to find a peaceful place to sit inside yourself with things that have

> already happened--things you can't change?

That I don't know. I'm open to suggestions.

>But there is a chance that maybe some of these people don't have enough sense

of self for this to occur. What are you going to do then?

I don't know.

>So in a way, you are STILL

> under the influence of the drugs, because you believe that you shouldn't

> have to experience this level of discomfort.

Maybe so. Then again, maybe I believe that I shouldn't have to experience

this level of discomfort alone.

>

> Aynslie, the bottom line is, how do you want to live your life? Do you want

> to drown in a sea of dysfunction, or do you want to do what was intended

> with this? Will you continue beating yourself up and telling us how bad a

> person you must be, or will you do what we all were intended to do when we

> run across adversity? Will you look at what you've learned, and will you

> use it to make yourself and your life better? Or will you use it to bash

> and batter yourself, thereby keeping yourself from fully realizing God's

> plan for what you would gain from this?

Actually, I wasn't bashing and battering myself today. I was recalling how I

had bashed and battered myself a few months back, how at THAT time I felt

that I realized that I was a far worse person than I had previously

believed. It was my experience at Mr. Bagel this morning that placed that in

such drastic contrast to what I'm rediscovering about myself. I tend to

overeact emotionally to just about everything these days, and that was what

I did this morning. But the emotions were gushing and I had to express them.

> Aynslie, why don't you come along for the ride? I think you'll like where

> we go :-).

>

As I said the other day, I'm here all the time. I wasn't planning to go

away.

>

> BTW, did you notice that God sent a messenger to tell you you ARE a good

> person, in the form of the person in the coffee shop?

Yes, as a matter of fact I did. If that hadn't happened, I wouldn't have

been so outraged at the fact that I spent so much time thinking I was so

rotten.

I appreciate your non-nonsense approach to things, . I like it when

people say it like it is. Thanks.

Aynslie

[Guest guest]

Cyndi,

Thanks for the encouraging words. I appreciate them.

Aynslie

on 3/29/05 5:16 AM, cyndi white at cyndi2001uk@... wrote:

> Oh Aynslie ,dont be so hard on yourself my love.Do we ever know what oe who we

> really are ?Lots of issues shape our lives and ourselves .When I'm having a

> good day ,I tend to worry that I'm actually enjoying myself ! I've wondered

> how different I would have been without the meds I've taken ,for years now

> .But isnt it all part of life ?I was sexually abused as a child ,and I'm

> desperately trying to overcome this all these years later.As I said ,I've been

> on pres. drugs for years ,but during those years I've had 5 lovely children

> .If I had been drug free ,and perhaps thinking differently ,would it have

> meant that one or more of them would not have been born?I cant bear that

> thought ,I had a great amount of difficulties while bringing them up ,but I

> wouldnt be without any of them . You sound such a lovely caring person ,I hope

> you can find strength in the times when things upset you .We're all in this

> battle together ,and we'll win ,we'll get there in the end. Hugs , Cyndi

> .x

[Guest guest]

Cyndi,

Thanks for the encouraging words. I appreciate them.

Aynslie

on 3/29/05 5:16 AM, cyndi white at cyndi2001uk@... wrote:

> Oh Aynslie ,dont be so hard on yourself my love.Do we ever know what oe who we

> really are ?Lots of issues shape our lives and ourselves .When I'm having a

> good day ,I tend to worry that I'm actually enjoying myself ! I've wondered

> how different I would have been without the meds I've taken ,for years now

> .But isnt it all part of life ?I was sexually abused as a child ,and I'm

> desperately trying to overcome this all these years later.As I said ,I've been

> on pres. drugs for years ,but during those years I've had 5 lovely children

> .If I had been drug free ,and perhaps thinking differently ,would it have

> meant that one or more of them would not have been born?I cant bear that

> thought ,I had a great amount of difficulties while bringing them up ,but I

> wouldnt be without any of them . You sound such a lovely caring person ,I hope

> you can find strength in the times when things upset you .We're all in this

> battle together ,and we'll win ,we'll get there in the end. Hugs , Cyndi

> .x

[Guest guest]

Kim,

You said:

> Are you taking a combination calcium/magnesium? If so, you are not

> getting the desired effect from them. Magnesium and calcium need to

> be taken separately, at about 4-hour intervals. I highly recommend

> getting them and taking them saparately, as they have a lovely calming

> effect.

I don't think I asked this: What exactly do you mean by 4-hour intervals? Do

you mean have a space of 4 hours between the time I take one and the time I

take the other? Or should I take one each every 4 hours until I have taken

the correct daily dosage?

And having asked that, what dosage of each would you recommend I take?

Aynslie

[Guest guest]

Kim,

You said:

> Are you taking a combination calcium/magnesium? If so, you are not

> getting the desired effect from them. Magnesium and calcium need to

> be taken separately, at about 4-hour intervals. I highly recommend

> getting them and taking them saparately, as they have a lovely calming

> effect.

I don't think I asked this: What exactly do you mean by 4-hour intervals? Do

you mean have a space of 4 hours between the time I take one and the time I

take the other? Or should I take one each every 4 hours until I have taken

the correct daily dosage?

And having asked that, what dosage of each would you recommend I take?

Aynslie

[Guest guest]

One of the worst experiences of the past months for me was the " realization "

that I was not who I always believed myself to be. To some extent, that's fairly

normal, as all people have a self-image that they do everything they can to

maintain a belief in--and it's rarely in-line with how others see us. Yet my

self-image was partially the result of feedback I've gotten from people over the

course of my adult life: I was a good listener, I was kind and compassionate,

generous both with my time and resources, willing to drop everything and give

help where it was needed. I had a soothing voice that calmed listeners. I gave

the best and most heart-felt hugs. I was always able to see and point out the

positive in most situations--These are all things that friends and acquaintances

have said to me at various times. And I believed myself to be those things.

And yet, since last summer, I have been " realizing " that I was wrong, and asking

myself " How could I have been SO wrong about the person I was, when in fact I'm

a TOTAL failure as a friend, as a co-worker, and as a human being? " Everything I

had thought I was working toward, all the obstacles I had thought I'd overcome

in my life (the result of growing up in an abusive household with an alcoholic

parent), all the struggles to become a whole, well-rounded person had all come

to naught. I had deceived myself into believing I was a good, decent,

compassionate and productive person when, in fact, I have failed monumentally at

ALL of those things! It was all so clear--just look at how I had treated the

people I loved most over the past 3 years! Aha! The truth comes out!

This morning, like every morning, I stopped at Mr. Bagel to get an ice

cappucino. There was a woman there who the staff was trying to give directions

to to find a local business where she needed to pick up her sister. They weren't

sure where it was, but I overheard and offered to help. I drew a map and

explained how to get there. While I was doing this, my drink was brought out,

but when I tried to pay, they said, " No. It's on the house. You come in every

day and you're always so nice and friendly, so we're buying it for you. " I

thanked them and put the money for the drink in the tip cup instead, then left.

But that incident has been making me weep all morning. I teach 8th grade, but

fortunately the whole grade level is away on a field trip today, so there has

been no one here to see me all weepy. UNfortunately, I only have one tissue left

in the box, so it's going to have to last me several more hours!

I don't want anti-pharmaceutical company platitudes, I don't want pity, and I

don't want to be placated with " It was the drugs " and " It was the withdrawal. "

The people in my life that I hurt are holding me accountable for my actions and

words, and as a result, I can do nothing but hold myself accountable, too. I

have been trying to make amends where I'm able, but the hurt I caused in other

people can't be mopped up that easily or forgiven and/or forgotten by them, even

when I've explained about the drugs and the withdrawal. The damage has been

done, and my life as I knew and love it is over, no matter the culprit or cause.

It was done by someone with my face, my voice, my body, my relationships with

others.

I've been told to blame it on the drugs. How does that help me? I've been told

to " pretend " to live a normal life. How does it help me to pretend? Is there

nothing tangible, nothing solid and concrete to hold onto? Where can I turn when

I so desperately need a friend to hold me up and support me? No one is there.

Blaming drugs or people won't help me or hold me up, and pretending to have a

friend does nothing to support me. I can adjust the supplements I'm taking, and

reclaim the self I used to believe in, but I'm still alone amidst the ruins of

my life.

Aynslie

[Guest guest]

Aynslie:

After reading the responses from Tonya and Deer, I really haven't much to add to the mix except that what you are experiencing is all caused by the drugs. You don't want to hear it but THAT'S the truth. The feelings you describe are feelings I still fight 7 years later. My life has an unreal quality about it; I feel like a stranger in my own life, and that everything I accomplished before taking Paxil is just some horrible mistake and that if they really knew who I am now and if they could see what a horrible person I really am they would realize that bestowing all those accolades on me was a grievous error. If I am caught off guard, I will get so overwhelmed with these negative feelings that I simply can't see the point of going on. That's how futile it all seems to me on some days. Luckily, those feelings only come rarely now, but they are still there and never once pre-paxil did I ever have those feelings. And there are still some people who won't have anything to do with me because of what I did while on that drug. I tried to make up for the things I said and did, to no avail. Of course, it's painful, but I don't dwell on it and I've had to let those relationships go. As said, shit happens, and some of it is so bad as to be unimaginable, but yet we still soldier on and try to make sense of this experience.

"Blind Reason"

a novel of pharmaceutical intrigue

Think your antidepressant is safe? Think again. It's

Unsafe At Any Dose

[Guest guest]

Aynslie:

After reading the responses from Tonya and Deer, I really haven't much to add to the mix except that what you are experiencing is all caused by the drugs. You don't want to hear it but THAT'S the truth. The feelings you describe are feelings I still fight 7 years later. My life has an unreal quality about it; I feel like a stranger in my own life, and that everything I accomplished before taking Paxil is just some horrible mistake and that if they really knew who I am now and if they could see what a horrible person I really am they would realize that bestowing all those accolades on me was a grievous error. If I am caught off guard, I will get so overwhelmed with these negative feelings that I simply can't see the point of going on. That's how futile it all seems to me on some days. Luckily, those feelings only come rarely now, but they are still there and never once pre-paxil did I ever have those feelings. And there are still some people who won't have anything to do with me because of what I did while on that drug. I tried to make up for the things I said and did, to no avail. Of course, it's painful, but I don't dwell on it and I've had to let those relationships go. As said, shit happens, and some of it is so bad as to be unimaginable, but yet we still soldier on and try to make sense of this experience.

"Blind Reason"

a novel of pharmaceutical intrigue

Think your antidepressant is safe? Think again. It's

Unsafe At Any Dose

[Guest guest]

Oh Aynslie ,dont be so hard on yourself my love.Do we ever know what oe who we really are ?Lots of issues shape our lives and ourselves .When I'm having a good day ,I tend to worry that I'm actually enjoying myself ! I've wondered how different I would have been without the meds I've taken ,for years now .But isnt it all part of life ?I was sexually abused as a child ,and I'm desperately trying to overcome this all these years later.As I said ,I've been on pres. drugs for years ,but during those years I've had 5 lovely children .If I had been drug free ,and perhaps thinking differently ,would it have meant that one or more of them would not have been born?I cant bear that thought ,I had a great amount of difficulties while bringing them up ,but I wouldnt be without any of them . You sound such a lovely caring person ,I hope you can find strength in the times when things

upset you .We're all in this battle together ,and we'll win ,we'll get there in the end. Hugs , Cyndi .x

Aynslie wrote: One of the worst experiences of the past months for me was the "realization" that I was not who I always believed myself to be. To some extent, that's fairly normal, as all people have a self-image that they do everything they can to maintain a belief in--and it's rarely in-line with how others see us. Yet my self-image was partially the result of feedback I've gotten from people over the course of my adult life: I was a good listener, I was kind and compassionate, generous both with my time and resources, willing to drop everything and give help where it was needed. I had a soothing voice that calmed listeners. I gave the best and most heart-felt hugs. I was always able to see and point out the positive in most situations--These are all things that friends and acquaintances have said to me at various times. And I believed myself to be those things.And yet, since last

summer, I have been "realizing" that I was wrong, and asking myself "How could I have been SO wrong about the person I was, when in fact I'm a TOTAL failure as a friend, as a co-worker, and as a human being?" Everything I had thought I was working toward, all the obstacles I had thought I'd overcome in my life (the result of growing up in an abusive household with an alcoholic parent), all the struggles to become a whole, well-rounded person had all come to naught. I had deceived myself into believing I was a good, decent, compassionate and productive person when, in fact, I have failed monumentally at ALL of those things! It was all so clear--just look at how I had treated the people I loved most over the past 3 years! Aha! The truth comes out! This morning, like every morning, I stopped at Mr. Bagel to get an ice cappucino. There was a woman there who the staff was trying to give directions to to find a local business where she needed to pick up her sister. They weren't

sure where it was, but I overheard and offered to help. I drew a map and explained how to get there. While I was doing this, my drink was brought out, but when I tried to pay, they said, "No. It's on the house. You come in every day and you're always so nice and friendly, so we're buying it for you." I thanked them and put the money for the drink in the tip cup instead, then left. But that incident has been making me weep all morning. I teach 8th grade, but fortunately the whole grade level is away on a field trip today, so there has been no one here to see me all weepy. UNfortunately, I only have one tissue left in the box, so it's going to have to last me several more hours!I don't want anti-pharmaceutical company platitudes, I don't want pity, and I don't want to be placated with "It was the drugs" and "It was the withdrawal." The people in my life that I hurt are holding me accountable for my actions and words, and as a result, I can do nothing but hold myself

accountable, too. I have been trying to make amends where I'm able, but the hurt I caused in other people can't be mopped up that easily or forgiven and/or forgotten by them, even when I've explained about the drugs and the withdrawal. The damage has been done, and my life as I knew and love it is over, no matter the culprit or cause. It was done by someone with my face, my voice, my body, my relationships with others.I've been told to blame it on the drugs. How does that help me? I've been told to "pretend" to live a normal life. How does it help me to pretend? Is there nothing tangible, nothing solid and concrete to hold onto? Where can I turn when I so desperately need a friend to hold me up and support me? No one is there. Blaming drugs or people won't help me or hold me up, and pretending to have a friend does nothing to support me. I can adjust the supplements I'm taking, and reclaim the self I used to believe in, but I'm still alone amidst the ruins of my life.

AynslieTo subscribe to the off-topic list go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/socialWandR/

from Cyndi in Cornwall xxx

[Guest guest]

Dear Aynslie,

You said, in part:

<<And yet, since last summer, I have been " realizing " that I was wrong, and

asking myself " How could I have been SO wrong about the person I was, when

in fact I'm a TOTAL failure as a friend, as a co-worker, and as a human

being? " Everything I had thought I was working toward, all the obstacles I

had thought I'd overcome in my life (the result of growing up in an abusive

household with an alcoholic parent), all the struggles to become a whole,

well-rounded person had all come to naught. I had deceived myself into

believing I was a good, decent, compassionate and productive person when, in

fact, I have failed monumentally at ALL of those things! It was all so

clear--just look at how I had treated the people I loved most over the past

3 years! Aha! The truth comes out!

I don't want anti-pharmaceutical company platitudes, I don't want pity, and

I don't want to be placated with " It was the drugs " and " It was the

withdrawal. " The people in my life that I hurt are holding me accountable

for my actions and words, and as a result, I can do nothing but hold myself

accountable, too. I have been trying to make amends where I'm able, but the

hurt I caused in other people can't be mopped up that easily or forgiven

and/or forgotten by them, even when I've explained about the drugs and the

withdrawal. The damage has been done, and my life as I knew and love it is

over, no matter the culprit or cause. It was done by someone with my face,

my voice, my body, my relationships with others.

I've been told to blame it on the drugs. How does that help me? I've been

told to " pretend " to live a normal life. How does it help me to pretend? Is

there nothing tangible, nothing solid and concrete to hold onto? Where can I

turn when I so desperately need a friend to hold me up and support me? No

one is there. Blaming drugs or people won't help me or hold me up, and

pretending to have a friend does nothing to support me. I can adjust the

supplements I'm taking, and reclaim the self I used to believe in, but I'm

still alone amidst the ruins of my life.>>

** So what you're really telling us is that you're looking for magic. We

don't have any. Shit happens. I'm not going to tell you it was the drugs,

because you already know it was the drugs. I'm not going to try to make you

feel better; it's obvious you don't want to right now.

This is so uncomfortable for you. You wish it had never happened. That's

understandable. But it did happen, and the question is, now, how are you

going to survive it; what are you going to do with it?

It's understandable that people close to you are a little gunshy at this

point. Most people would be. Their continued apprehension about you doesn't

mean that you could have controlled your actions at the time. For instance,

if I backed out of my driveway twice last year and hit two people walking,

the neighbors might be a little apprehensive about walking past my driveway.

They may even recognize that I didn't do it on purpose, but that doesn't

change the impact my actions had on people.

So again, we come back to, what are you going to do about it? How are you

going to find a peaceful place to sit inside yourself with things that have

already happened--things you can't change?

Time heals most wounds. If the people who you insulted or assaulted have

any decency at all, in time they will acknowledge that you are different

from how you were under the influence of the drugs. If that happens, it's

going to make things a lot more comfortable for you and for them. But there

is a chance that maybe some of these people don't have enough sense of self

for this to occur. What are you going to do then?

There isn't one of us here who hasn't done something utterly awful at least

once in our lives. Some of us weren't under the influence of drugs when we

did it. What do we do? Well, I would imagine people do all kinds of

different things, but the healthiest response any one of us could form is to

acknowledge what happened, apologize, make amends, and turn it over to God

(however you may conceive him/her/it). That doesn't make it any more

comfortable, most of the time., but nobody ever promised us complete

comfort--EXCEPT the pharmaceutical industry. So in a way, you are STILL

under the influence of the drugs, because you believe that you shouldn't

have to experience this level of discomfort.

Human beings are complex; life is complex. Good things happen, bad things

happen. Fantastic things happen, horrific things happen. Sometimes we do

really good things. Sometimes we do just okay things. Sometimes we do

slightly bad things. Sometimes we do terrible things. But overall, none of

us are all good or all bad. The important thing is, most of us care and

most of us try, most of the time.

There isn't anyone amongst us who can second-guess the wisdom of the

Universe. There is a reason we are all still here, with our lumps, cuts and

bruises. When I look at my life and look back upon the things I did that

used to make me cringe, I see that the further away from these I get, and

the more gracefully I have handled them, the more aware I become of why they

had to happen in the first place. Each and every thing that happens in our

lives teaches us something. Each and every person that crosses our path

teaches us something.

Aynslie, the bottom line is, how do you want to live your life? Do you want

to drown in a sea of dysfunction, or do you want to do what was intended

with this? Will you continue beating yourself up and telling us how bad a

person you must be, or will you do what we all were intended to do when we

run across adversity? Will you look at what you've learned, and will you

use it to make yourself and your life better? Or will you use it to bash

and batter yourself, thereby keeping yourself from fully realizing God's

plan for what you would gain from this?

Whichever way you choose, it's time for this list to stop throwing the daily

pity parties it's been having. I take full responsibility for this. Had I

been more present and not procrastinated when dealing with a recent member

who was a major negative force on the list, the list would not have indulged

in anywhere near as much self-pity as it has the last couple of weeks.

I learned a long time ago that self-pity helps no one, and certainly doesn't

help the people on this list recover. It's natural when new people come

along to hear a certain amount of self-pity from them. What's happened in

the past is that I've been right there to shift that energy to something

more productive and spiritually restorative. I'm sorry I haven't been

around enough lately to do this. But I'm here right now, and I got my new

speech recognition software that I will be learning this week, which will

put me here more often. Things are going back to normal on the

Withdrawal_and_Recovery list.

Aynslie, why don't you come along for the ride? I think you'll like where

we go :-).

BTW, did you notice that God sent a messenger to tell you you ARE a good

person, in the form of the person in the coffee shop?

Love and hugs,