Re: Sublingual intake of Armour

[Guest guest]

> Does anybody here have any information on taking thyroid hormone

> sublingually?

Hi Zina. I have a huge file of articles in my computer on anything

and everything related to thyroid, and will see what I can find

after posting this. What I do know from my own research is that the

mouth and gums are lined with millions of little capillaries. So

when you let any med dissolve slowly there, it is being absorbed by

those same capillaries, which takes the med directly and more

efficiently. It's the same theory behind those little nitro tablets

that people take who have heart problems--they put them in the same

place, and the effect is immediate.

I'll get back to you.

Janie

[Guest guest]

Here's a good article on sublingual intake, and why it can be very

optimal to do the same with Armour (some of this is technical, but

the point is there!):

Sublingual Absorption

by Leilani Lea

Sublingual, meaning literally 'under the tongue' refers to a

method of administering substances via the mouth in such a way that

the substances are rapidly absorbed via the blood vessels under the

tongue rather than via the digestive tract. The route of absorption

via the highly vascularised buccal mucosa allow the substances a

more direct access to the blood circulation, thus providing direct

systemic administration.

Medically, sublingual drug administration is applied in the

field of cardiocascular drugs, steroids, some barbiturates and

enzymes. It has been a developing field in the administration of

many vitamins and minerals which are found to be readily and

thoroughly absorbed by this method. Sublingually absorbed nutrition,

which avoids exposure to the gastric system and liver, means direct

nutritional benefits, particularly important for sufferers of gastro-

intestinal difficulties such as ulcers, hyperactive gut, coeliac

disease, those with compromised digestion, the elderly and invalids –

the nutritional benefit is independent of gastro-intestinal

influences.

There is considerable evidence that most sublingual substances

are absorbed by simple diffusion; the sublingual area acting rather

like litmus paper, readily soaking up the substances. However, not

all substances are permeable and accessible to the buccal mucosa.

The mucosa functions primarily as a barrier – similar to skin1. But

while it was once believed that the barrier of human skin

was 'impenetrable' it is now recognised that the dermis is a good

site for the absorption of many substances (eg, vitamins E & C

creams; hormones; nicotine patches) and it is a growing field of

endeavour. Similarly the buccal mucosa presents an ideal site for

absorption. This potential continues to be explored for the

administration of many drugs – providing many useful studies and a

better understanding of the modus operandi – although the benefits

of the less intrusive nutrition therapies have had little

opportunity as yet to be as thoroughly researched.

One of the best known drugs used regularly with great success

is Glyceryl Trinitrate2 – a potent coronary vasodilator which is

used for the rapid symptomatic relief of angina. It has been found

impressively effective when administered sublingually;

pharmacologically active after only 1 – 2 minutes. The

administration via an aerosol spray was found to provide rapid

relief of symptoms, with first-class metabolism. The extent of first-

class metabolism when compared to the sublingual spray decreased to

48% with sublingual tablets and 28% with the oral dose3. Following

sublingual administration, nitrate appears in plasma . . .

concentrations can be maintained for 24 hours4.

The Mechanics of Sublingual Absorption

The absorption potential of the buccal mucosa is influenced by

the lipid solubility and therefore the permeability of the solution

(osmosis); the ionisation (pH); and the molecular weight of the

substances. For example, absorption of some drugs via the buccal

mucosa is shown to increase when carrier pH is lower (more acidic)

and decrease with a lowering of pH (more alkaline).

The cells of the oral epithelium and epidermis are also capable

of absorbing by endocytosis (the uptake of particles by a cell as if

by hollowly wrapping itself around it. These engulfed particles are

usually too large to diffuse through its wall). It is unlikely that

this mechanism is used accross the entire stratified epithelium. It

is also unlikely that active transport processes operate within the

oral mucosa. However, it is believed that acidic stimulation of the

salivary glands, with the accompanying vasodilation, facilitates

absorption and uptake into the circulatory system.

The mouth is lined with a mucous membrane which is covered with

squamous epithelium and contains mucous glands. The buccal mucosa

are similar to the sublingual mucosal tissue.

The salivary glands consist of lobules of cells which secrete

saliva through the salivary ducts into the mouth. The three pairs of

salivary glands are the parotid, the submandibular and the

sublingual which lies on the floor of the mouth. The more acid the

taste, the greater the stimulation of salivary output; serving also

to avoid potential harm to acid-sensitive tooth enamel by bathing

the mouth in copious neutralising fluid. With stimulation of

salivary secretion oxygen is consumed and vasodilator substances are

produced; and the glandular blood flow increases, due to increased

glandular metabolism.

The sublingual artery travels forward to the sublingual gland,

it supplies the gland and branches to the neighbouring muscles and

to the mucous membranes of the mouth, tongue and gums. Two

symmetrical branches travel behind the jawbone under the tongue to

meet and join at its tip. Another branch meets and anastomoses with

the submental branches of the facial artery. The sublingual artery

stems from the lingual artery – the body's main blood supply to the

tongue and the floor of the mouth – which arises from the external

carotid artery. The proximity with the internal carotid artery

allows fast access to its route supplying the greater part of the

cerebral hemisphere.

Osmosis

In order for a nutrient to be effectively absorbed

sublingually, it needs to be able to travel accross the buccal

mucous membranes; by a process of diffusion known as osmosis which

applies to all forms of absorption by the body; governing both

intestinal and sublingual absorption. The distribution of water

accross cell walls depends on the osmotic difference in the blood

between the intracellular and extracellular fluid. The distribution

of water across blood vessel walls is determined by the in-vivo

osmotic pressure of plasma and the total outward hydrostatic

pressure. Unlike the cell membrane, the capillary wall is freely and

rapidly permeable to small molecules. The diffusion of water accross

a membrane that is only permeable to water depends on the molecular

weight of the particle. Small particles that readily dissolve in

water, rarely present a problem in permeation and diffusion, and so

are able to move freely between the tissues of the body. Active

transportation into cells leads to rapid metabolisation of the

substances. Molecules such as glucose (fructose) and amino acids are

essential for cell metabolism and special mechanisms have evolved to

facilitate their rapid diffusion and permeation accross cell

membranes.

The Water of Life

Water is physiologically the most important component of the

body; it is the medium in which all of the physiological activities

neccessary for life take place. The properties of water greatly

influence the digestion and absorption of lipids. Water molecules

strongly attract each other because of the asymmetrical distribution

of electrons within each molecule; the area of the oxygen atom has

many electrons and hydrogen atoms have few electrons. Water is the

major component of both the the interior of the cell and the

extracellular fluid that surrounds the cell. A little over half the

body water is inside cells. About 15 – 20% of the extracellular

water is in the plasma. The remainder is held in the extravascular,

extracellular and interstitial fluid.

Water is an excellent solvent. Because it is such a good

solvent, it is the most abundant molecule of the body; most other

molecules in the body are dissolved within the water molecules.

Water is also an excellent carrier of small particles and is very

readily permeable: it is absorbed passively, by osmosis.

An acid is a substance that releases a hydrogen (H+ ) ion. The

base is the substance that combines with it. The H+ concentration is

usually shown using the pH scale; a scale of numbers which expresses

the acidity/alkalinity of a solution.

At pH 7 the solution is neutral – the acidity and alkalinity

are balanced. The lower the pH, the more acid and the higher the

percentage of H+ ions.

Ascorbic Acid

Ascorbic acid is the major antioxident in the aqueous phase of

the body. It is readily dissolved in water and its naturally acidic

nature in aqueous solution provides a naturally low pH for rapid and

efficient sublingual absorption of both itself as Vitamin C and the

other solutes carried with it. Ascorbic acid readily dissolves in

water.

Sublingual Nutrition

The advantages of sublingually administering nutrients seem to

be manifold, offering improved bioavailability and more rapid

metabolisation of the nutrients which are absorbed more fully. It

allows individual control over the dosage for optimium benefit,

within safe guidelines, and can allow absorption in a palatable and

easily administered form, regardless of gastro-intestinal

difficulties. It is especially useful for those who experience

difficulty in swallowing tablets. Sublingual nutrients are available

in readily dissolved tablets, or in fine powders, which are held

under the tongue or in the mouth, until dissolved. Water soluble

vitamins are passively absorbed, by osmosis, and the vitamin

molecules are massed in the micelles for transport across the

mucosal membranes.

References

1 Squier CA, NW. Brit Med Bull, 31: 169 (1975).

2 Garibaldi M Kanig JL. Oral ther. Pharmacol, 1.440 (1965)

3 Vogt D, Trenk D, Jahnchen E, Phar-maco kinetic., Abt. fur Klin.

Pharmak, Herz-Zentrum, Germany.

4 Bogeart MG, Clinical Pharmaco kinetics of Nitrates, University of

Gent Medical School, Belgium.

5 Fort S, M, Luscombe D, D Prelim. investig. of efficacy

sublingual verapamil. 1994; 37: 460-3

Bibliography

1. Gray's Anatomy.

2. Florence AT Attwood D. Physiochemical Principles of Pharmacy.

3. Zilva JF Pannall PR. Clinical Chemisty in Diagnosis and Treatment.

4. Sinclair D, An introduction to functional anatomy.

5. Raynor J, Anatomy and physiology.

6. British National Formulary.

7. Harison RJ, Textbook of medicine

http://www.positivehealth.com/permit/Articles/Colon%

20Health/lea13.htm

[Guest guest]

Now, that was interesting! I've been taking my thyroid sublingually for

nearly six months and noticed a big differenct.. I prefer the control I

get doing it this way.. but now I know that I can increase the benefit of

my other supplements as well.. vitamins, iron.. etc... cool! heheheheh

Topper ()

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Thyroid_Support_Group/

http://toppertwo.tripod.com

On Sun, 16 Mar 2003 02:55:49 -0000 " loboshe " writes:

> Here's a good article on sublingual intake, and why it can be very

> optimal to do the same with Armour (some of this is technical, but

> the point is there!):

>

> Sublingual Absorption

>

> by Leilani Lea

[Guest guest]

Hi Janie,

Thanks for looking. I got in a little tiff with somebody in the

about.com forum. They were discussing taking Cytomel (T3) with

food. By doing so, apparently it stays in your system longer. I

SUGGESTED the sublingual method, and I ruffled this one gals feathers

pretty good. So, I guess what I'm trying to find out is once the

hormone is in your system, how long does it stay there. This gal was

all over me stating that when you take meds sublingually they don't

stay in your system very long. You get a " hit " and then its all

gone. This doesn't really make sense to me, but maybe she knows

something I don't?!! Anway, I really ruffled her feathers -

unintentionally - I think I was invading her territory. She was also

very defense because I suggested a natrual thyroid vs. the synthetics

they all were discussing. Sheesh, people can be so touchy! LOL

Anyway, whatever information you can find would be very helpful.

Thanks again,

Zina

> > Does anybody here have any information on taking thyroid hormone

> > sublingually?

>

> Hi Zina. I have a huge file of articles in my computer on anything

> and everything related to thyroid, and will see what I can find

> after posting this. What I do know from my own research is that the

> mouth and gums are lined with millions of little capillaries. So

> when you let any med dissolve slowly there, it is being absorbed by

> those same capillaries, which takes the med directly and more

> efficiently. It's the same theory behind those little nitro tablets

> that people take who have heart problems--they put them in the same

> place, and the effect is immediate.

>

> I'll get back to you.

>

> Janie

[Guest guest]

Hi Janie,

Thanks so much!

Zina

> Here's a good article on sublingual intake, and why it can be very

> optimal to do the same with Armour (some of this is technical, but

> the point is there!):

>

> Sublingual Absorption

>

> by Leilani Lea

>

> Sublingual, meaning literally 'under the tongue' refers to a

> method of administering substances via the mouth in such a way that

> the substances are rapidly absorbed via the blood vessels under the

> tongue rather than via the digestive tract. The route of absorption

> via the highly vascularised buccal mucosa allow the substances a

> more direct access to the blood circulation, thus providing direct

> systemic administration.

>

> Medically, sublingual drug administration is applied in the

> field of cardiocascular drugs, steroids, some barbiturates and

> enzymes. It has been a developing field in the administration of

> many vitamins and minerals which are found to be readily and

> thoroughly absorbed by this method. Sublingually absorbed

nutrition,

> which avoids exposure to the gastric system and liver, means direct

> nutritional benefits, particularly important for sufferers of

gastro-

> intestinal difficulties such as ulcers, hyperactive gut, coeliac

> disease, those with compromised digestion, the elderly and

invalids –

> the nutritional benefit is independent of gastro-intestinal

> influences.

>

> There is considerable evidence that most sublingual substances

> are absorbed by simple diffusion; the sublingual area acting rather

> like litmus paper, readily soaking up the substances. However, not

> all substances are permeable and accessible to the buccal mucosa.

> The mucosa functions primarily as a barrier – similar to skin1. But

> while it was once believed that the barrier of human skin

> was 'impenetrable' it is now recognised that the dermis is a good

> site for the absorption of many substances (eg, vitamins E & C

> creams; hormones; nicotine patches) and it is a growing field of

> endeavour. Similarly the buccal mucosa presents an ideal site for

> absorption. This potential continues to be explored for the

> administration of many drugs – providing many useful studies and a

> better understanding of the modus operandi – although the benefits

> of the less intrusive nutrition therapies have had little

> opportunity as yet to be as thoroughly researched.

>

> One of the best known drugs used regularly with great success

> is Glyceryl Trinitrate2 – a potent coronary vasodilator which is

> used for the rapid symptomatic relief of angina. It has been found

> impressively effective when administered sublingually;

> pharmacologically active after only 1 – 2 minutes. The

> administration via an aerosol spray was found to provide rapid

> relief of symptoms, with first-class metabolism. The extent of

first-

> class metabolism when compared to the sublingual spray decreased to

> 48% with sublingual tablets and 28% with the oral dose3. Following

> sublingual administration, nitrate appears in plasma . . .

> concentrations can be maintained for 24 hours4.

>

> The Mechanics of Sublingual Absorption

>

> The absorption potential of the buccal mucosa is influenced by

> the lipid solubility and therefore the permeability of the solution

> (osmosis); the ionisation (pH); and the molecular weight of the

> substances. For example, absorption of some drugs via the buccal

> mucosa is shown to increase when carrier pH is lower (more acidic)

> and decrease with a lowering of pH (more alkaline).

>

> The cells of the oral epithelium and epidermis are also

capable

> of absorbing by endocytosis (the uptake of particles by a cell as

if

> by hollowly wrapping itself around it. These engulfed particles are

> usually too large to diffuse through its wall). It is unlikely that

> this mechanism is used accross the entire stratified epithelium. It

> is also unlikely that active transport processes operate within the

> oral mucosa. However, it is believed that acidic stimulation of the

> salivary glands, with the accompanying vasodilation, facilitates

> absorption and uptake into the circulatory system.

>

> The mouth is lined with a mucous membrane which is covered

with

> squamous epithelium and contains mucous glands. The buccal mucosa

> are similar to the sublingual mucosal tissue.

>

> The salivary glands consist of lobules of cells which secrete

> saliva through the salivary ducts into the mouth. The three pairs

of

> salivary glands are the parotid, the submandibular and the

> sublingual which lies on the floor of the mouth. The more acid the

> taste, the greater the stimulation of salivary output; serving also

> to avoid potential harm to acid-sensitive tooth enamel by bathing

> the mouth in copious neutralising fluid. With stimulation of

> salivary secretion oxygen is consumed and vasodilator substances

are

> produced; and the glandular blood flow increases, due to increased

> glandular metabolism.

>

> The sublingual artery travels forward to the sublingual gland,

> it supplies the gland and branches to the neighbouring muscles and

> to the mucous membranes of the mouth, tongue and gums. Two

> symmetrical branches travel behind the jawbone under the tongue to

> meet and join at its tip. Another branch meets and anastomoses with

> the submental branches of the facial artery. The sublingual artery

> stems from the lingual artery – the body's main blood supply to the

> tongue and the floor of the mouth – which arises from the external

> carotid artery. The proximity with the internal carotid artery

> allows fast access to its route supplying the greater part of the

> cerebral hemisphere.

>

> Osmosis

> In order for a nutrient to be effectively absorbed

> sublingually, it needs to be able to travel accross the buccal

> mucous membranes; by a process of diffusion known as osmosis which

> applies to all forms of absorption by the body; governing both

> intestinal and sublingual absorption. The distribution of water

> accross cell walls depends on the osmotic difference in the blood

> between the intracellular and extracellular fluid. The distribution

> of water across blood vessel walls is determined by the in-vivo

> osmotic pressure of plasma and the total outward hydrostatic

> pressure. Unlike the cell membrane, the capillary wall is freely

and

> rapidly permeable to small molecules. The diffusion of water

accross

> a membrane that is only permeable to water depends on the molecular

> weight of the particle. Small particles that readily dissolve in

> water, rarely present a problem in permeation and diffusion, and so

> are able to move freely between the tissues of the body. Active

> transportation into cells leads to rapid metabolisation of the

> substances. Molecules such as glucose (fructose) and amino acids

are

> essential for cell metabolism and special mechanisms have evolved

to

> facilitate their rapid diffusion and permeation accross cell

> membranes.

>

> The Water of Life

> Water is physiologically the most important component of the

> body; it is the medium in which all of the physiological activities

> neccessary for life take place. The properties of water greatly

> influence the digestion and absorption of lipids. Water molecules

> strongly attract each other because of the asymmetrical

distribution

> of electrons within each molecule; the area of the oxygen atom has

> many electrons and hydrogen atoms have few electrons. Water is the

> major component of both the the interior of the cell and the

> extracellular fluid that surrounds the cell. A little over half the

> body water is inside cells. About 15 – 20% of the extracellular

> water is in the plasma. The remainder is held in the extravascular,

> extracellular and interstitial fluid.

>

> Water is an excellent solvent. Because it is such a good

> solvent, it is the most abundant molecule of the body; most other

> molecules in the body are dissolved within the water molecules.

> Water is also an excellent carrier of small particles and is very

> readily permeable: it is absorbed passively, by osmosis.

> An acid is a substance that releases a hydrogen (H+ ) ion. The

> base is the substance that combines with it. The H+ concentration

is

> usually shown using the pH scale; a scale of numbers which

expresses

> the acidity/alkalinity of a solution.

> At pH 7 the solution is neutral – the acidity and alkalinity

> are balanced. The lower the pH, the more acid and the higher the

> percentage of H+ ions.

>

> Ascorbic Acid

> Ascorbic acid is the major antioxident in the aqueous phase of

> the body. It is readily dissolved in water and its naturally acidic

> nature in aqueous solution provides a naturally low pH for rapid

and

> efficient sublingual absorption of both itself as Vitamin C and the

> other solutes carried with it. Ascorbic acid readily dissolves in

> water.

>

> Sublingual Nutrition

> The advantages of sublingually administering nutrients seem to

> be manifold, offering improved bioavailability and more rapid

> metabolisation of the nutrients which are absorbed more fully. It

> allows individual control over the dosage for optimium benefit,

> within safe guidelines, and can allow absorption in a palatable and

> easily administered form, regardless of gastro-intestinal

> difficulties. It is especially useful for those who experience

> difficulty in swallowing tablets. Sublingual nutrients are

available

> in readily dissolved tablets, or in fine powders, which are held

> under the tongue or in the mouth, until dissolved. Water soluble

> vitamins are passively absorbed, by osmosis, and the vitamin

> molecules are massed in the micelles for transport across the

> mucosal membranes.

>

> References

> 1 Squier CA, NW. Brit Med Bull, 31: 169 (1975).

> 2 Garibaldi M Kanig JL. Oral ther. Pharmacol, 1.440 (1965)

> 3 Vogt D, Trenk D, Jahnchen E, Phar-maco kinetic., Abt. fur Klin.

> Pharmak, Herz-Zentrum, Germany.

> 4 Bogeart MG, Clinical Pharmaco kinetics of Nitrates, University of

> Gent Medical School, Belgium.

> 5 Fort S, M, Luscombe D, D Prelim. investig. of efficacy

> sublingual verapamil. 1994; 37: 460-3

>

>

> Bibliography

> 1. Gray's Anatomy.

> 2. Florence AT Attwood D. Physiochemical Principles of Pharmacy.

> 3. Zilva JF Pannall PR. Clinical Chemisty in Diagnosis and

Treatment.

> 4. Sinclair D, An introduction to functional anatomy.

> 5. Raynor J, Anatomy and physiology.

> 6. British National Formulary.

> 7. Harison RJ, Textbook of medicine

>

> http://www.positivehealth.com/permit/Articles/Colon%

> 20Health/lea13.htm

[Guest guest]

Hi Zina. This may be a tomato vs. toMAHto kind of thing. Taking

Cytomel or Armour with food may " slow its absorption " , and in that

sense, the slowness of absorption puts it in the system longer. But

once the hormones are available, they are used at the same rate!

And she is, in fact, lessening the " amount " she is getting absorbed

by consuming it!! That's the irony. If she instead placed the tab in

the gums, MORE would be absorbed in time by bypassing the action of

the liver, which loses some of it!! (Though I have no idea how

Cytomel would taste. May be an UGH)

Also, you are not getting a " hit " by letting it enter sublinqually.

When I place it between the gums for example, it takes up to 1 1/2

hours for it to dissolve!! That's not a hit. And even still, I can

tell there is some of it still there.

But the bottom line of sublingual is that you get MORE of what you

taking, over time, since it is direct. When consuming it, you lose

some of it. Plus, when it comes to Armour, the acids in the stomach

may be doing a number on the calcitonin.

I sure know what you mean about touchy people in groups. I had

joined another group several months ago, and they were escessively

rule-bound about what is acceptable and not. They would not allow

ANY link that referred to a site that was commercial in nature (i.e.

I could not refer people to Shoman's Top Doc list or anything

pertaining to her!!!) When I discovered the rule, I abided by it.

YET, over 1 1/2 weeks later, they stopped my ability to post,

demanded that I go back to every post and REMOVE the offending links

before I would be allowed to post again. Those posts were now way

back there!! It was so stupid that I left.

Janie

[Guest guest]

Zina,

Without getting really graphic and gross here, I want to bring up a

couple of things to ponder....

Think about certain things that you eat that are not digested quite

right.. times when your digestive system is out of whack.. times when you

over eat or eating something too laxative in it's effects to your system

and, shall we say.. that you can see what you have been eating as you

reach for the handle to flush the toilet?

Now... if there are times that things that pass through the digestive

system pass through without having been processed.... How many time are

you taking pills (meds, vitamins, supplements) that are not fully

dissolved but are shot through the system whole? And you don't even know

it?

Now.. if the liver has to process what the digestive system has

extracted.. and the liver, like every other organ in our bodies is not

working at optimum... how much medicine, vitamin, whatever... is not

getting into your blood stream properly?

If you take the tablet sublingually..... the stuff is going directly into

the blood stream.. ready for the body cells and organs to take up

directly... all the of pill, not just the part the dissolved.. not just

the parts that dissolved that the liver picked up. If it is taking the

pill (in my case) 45 minutes to an hour to dissolve.. that means that the

medication is slowly delivered to your system over that period of time...

The stuff is available to the body cells for the period of time that it

is in the blood stream... Once in the body cells and organs the body uses

it for whatever the purpose.....

What makes more sense...? Popping the pill on the hope that it dissolves

fully and the liver delivers all of it to the blood stream and it's not

just getting flushed down the toilet? Or putting the tablet under the

tongue, knowing that it is being fully dissolved and going directly into

the blood stream for body to absorb into cells and organs?

For me... under the tongue it goes... So now, when my system goes

through a bout of diarrhea.. I'm not wondering if the pill was dissolved

first... Or when I get constipated.. wondering if the medicine is

binding with the backup and not being processed at all..... I know I'm

getting my medication.. consistently, the entire dose, where and when I

need it..

Make sense to me... and after reading that article about sublingual and

knowing its okay to do that with just about any tablet... they're all

going under the tongue.. except for garlic and vitamin C.... I can't

handle the taste of either of them...!!!! hehehehehe

Topper ()

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Thyroid_Support_Group/

http://toppertwo.tripod.com

On Sun, 16 Mar 2003 13:43:34 -0000 " thwacksplat "

writes:

> Hi Janie,

>

> Thanks for looking. I got in a little tiff with somebody in the

> about.com forum. They were discussing taking Cytomel (T3) with

> food. By doing so, apparently it stays in your system longer. I

> SUGGESTED the sublingual method, and I ruffled this one gals

> feathers

> pretty good. So, I guess what I'm trying to find out is once the

> hormone is in your system, how long does it stay there. This gal

> was

> all over me stating that when you take meds sublingually they don't

> stay in your system very long. You get a " hit " and then its all

> gone. This doesn't really make sense to me, but maybe she knows

> something I don't?!! Anway, I really ruffled her feathers -

> unintentionally - I think I was invading her territory. She was

> also

> very defense because I suggested a natrual thyroid vs. the

> synthetics

> they all were discussing. Sheesh, people can be so touchy! LOL

> Anyway, whatever information you can find would be very helpful.

> Thanks again,

>

> Zina

[Guest guest]

If I take my armour this way does that mean I don't have to worry about waiting

an hour to eat or 4 hours before taking my iron/calcium supplements?

Jill in MN

On Sunday, March 16, 2003 7:21 AM, topper2@... [sMTP:topper2@...]

wrote:

> Now, that was interesting! I've been taking my thyroid sublingually for

> nearly six months and noticed a big differenct.. I prefer the control I

> get doing it this way.. but now I know that I can increase the benefit of

> my other supplements as well.. vitamins, iron.. etc... cool! heheheheh

>

> Topper ()

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Thyroid_Support_Group/

> http://toppertwo.tripod.com

[Guest guest]

> If I take my armour this way does that mean I don't have to worry about

waiting

> an hour to eat or 4 hours before taking my iron/calcium supplements?

>

Jill, you should still wait on the iron/calcium. reason being that its not

really an issue of absorbtion, but more an issue with how iron binds the T3.

It takes T3 from binding to the protiens and cells its supposed to bind to

and binds the hormone to the iron instead. So, still take your iron at a

different time than your hormones. If you are on iron, you'll probably need

a bigger does than what you are taking!

[Guest guest]

Ok, I understand. It is not a problem of during the digestion of the pill, but

when it is in the bloodstream. And 4 hours is the length of time the T3 is in

the bloodstream? (I'm trying to do this from memory and not look it up in my

books).

Thank you for your patience while you all teach us newbies!

Jill

On Sunday, March 16, 2003 2:53 PM, Jobes [sMTP:nancyjobes@...]

wrote:

>

>

> > If I take my armour this way does that mean I don't have to worry about

> waiting

> > an hour to eat or 4 hours before taking my iron/calcium supplements?

> >

> Jill, you should still wait on the iron/calcium. reason being that its not

> really an issue of absorbtion, but more an issue with how iron binds the T3.

> It takes T3 from binding to the protiens and cells its supposed to bind to

> and binds the hormone to the iron instead. So, still take your iron at a

> different time than your hormones. If you are on iron, you'll probably need

> a bigger does than what you are taking!

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Ok, I understand. It is not a problem of during the digestion of the

pill, but

> when it is in the bloodstream. And 4 hours is the length of time the T3

is in

> the bloodstream? (I'm trying to do this from memory and not look it up in

my

> books).

>

T3 does have a short half life, I don't remember exactly what it is. But

that amount of time will give you the opportunity to use that T3 properly

before adding the iron in. Those of us who need iron, and I am sure one of

them, need to be careful with it. I know I am hypo, and I know that I am

sick. I can say the iron has improved me, so while we have to be careful

with it, don't stop taking it. Especially if you get heavy periods.

As for your depression, yeah, more hormones will probably do the trick, and

again, if you are on a very low dose, as well as iron, you may need more.

I'd up it just a bit on my own in your case!

[Guest guest]

What forum was that? thyroid.about.com? Just curious

I just heard that my Broda doc is wrting a book called " WHAT TO DO WHEN

THE DOCTOR TELLS YOU IT'S ALL IN YOUR HEAD " !!!!!

Gracia

Hi Topper,

Yep, I hear you loud and clear. I too want to make sure I get my

Armour! That gal in the forum would not listen to a peep of what

I had to say.

[Guest guest]

Hi Janie,

That is what I told this gal on the forum. I even explained the

process of digestion - that the hormone wouldn't get digested until

it got to the small intestine, therefore taking longer to even start

absorbing and also that it might bind with substance such as calcium

and iron, so a person really doesn't know if they are getting the

entire dose or not. Plus, there are people out there with terrible

digestion, so it may even be going right through without being

absorbed at all. She responds by telling me the " hit " story. I

tried to explain, but she doesn't want to hear it. Whatever. It

really is her lose. BTW, she was making comments to a post I did to

another member . . . it wasn't even for her! The other member

thanked me for my knowledgable info. LOL That was what I was

thinking too, once the hormone becomes available, they are used at

the same rate regardless of how they got there. BANGING MY HEAD

AGAINST THE WALL! LOL Anyway, I think I will stay away from

there. They really are anti natural hormone. So, I'll just spend a

bunch of time defending my position . . . I really don't need that

extra bit of stress, yah, know?!!!

Wow, that group you belonged to sounds kind of strange with all those

rules. I'd get kicked out after my first post! LOL That was

another thing with this gal, she asked me if I was aware of the rules

of the forum and provided the link. So, when I responded I asked

real polite-like if she could be so kind as to tell me what rules I

had breached! LOL She indicated none that she knows of. So, I have

no idea what that was all about. Whatever.

Thanks again.

Zina

> Hi Zina. This may be a tomato vs. toMAHto kind of thing. Taking

> Cytomel or Armour with food may " slow its absorption " , and in that

> sense, the slowness of absorption puts it in the system longer. But

> once the hormones are available, they are used at the same rate!

>

> And she is, in fact, lessening the " amount " she is getting absorbed

> by consuming it!! That's the irony. If she instead placed the tab

in

> the gums, MORE would be absorbed in time by bypassing the action of

> the liver, which loses some of it!! (Though I have no idea how

> Cytomel would taste. May be an UGH)

>

> Also, you are not getting a " hit " by letting it enter sublinqually.

> When I place it between the gums for example, it takes up to 1 1/2

> hours for it to dissolve!! That's not a hit. And even still, I can

> tell there is some of it still there.

>

> But the bottom line of sublingual is that you get MORE of what you

> taking, over time, since it is direct. When consuming it, you lose

> some of it. Plus, when it comes to Armour, the acids in the stomach

> may be doing a number on the calcitonin.

>

> I sure know what you mean about touchy people in groups. I had

> joined another group several months ago, and they were escessively

> rule-bound about what is acceptable and not. They would not allow

> ANY link that referred to a site that was commercial in nature

(i.e.

> I could not refer people to Shoman's Top Doc list or anything

> pertaining to her!!!) When I discovered the rule, I abided by it.

> YET, over 1 1/2 weeks later, they stopped my ability to post,

> demanded that I go back to every post and REMOVE the offending

links

> before I would be allowed to post again. Those posts were now way

> back there!! It was so stupid that I left.

>

> Janie

[Guest guest]

Hi Topper,

Yep, I hear you loud and clear. I too want to make sure I get my

Armour! That gal in the forum would not listen to a peep of what

I had to say. I told her that some people have digestion troubles

and the hormone might not even get absorbed. It goes right through

their system. I tried explaining but it was like mud to her. She

was more interested in being " right " . So, I've decided to stay away

for that forum. There are a lot of anti-naturals there and I don't

need the extra stress of having to defend myself all the time.

Sheesh.

Thanks Topper.

Zina

> Zina,

>

> Without getting really graphic and gross here, I want to bring up a

> couple of things to ponder....

>

> Think about certain things that you eat that are not digested quite

> right.. times when your digestive system is out of whack.. times

when you

> over eat or eating something too laxative in it's effects to your

system

> and, shall we say.. that you can see what you have been eating as

you

> reach for the handle to flush the toilet?

>

> Now... if there are times that things that pass through the

digestive

> system pass through without having been processed.... How many time

are

> you taking pills (meds, vitamins, supplements) that are not fully

> dissolved but are shot through the system whole? And you don't even

know

> it?

>

> Now.. if the liver has to process what the digestive system has

> extracted.. and the liver, like every other organ in our bodies is

not

> working at optimum... how much medicine, vitamin, whatever... is not

> getting into your blood stream properly?

>

> If you take the tablet sublingually..... the stuff is going

directly into

> the blood stream.. ready for the body cells and organs to take up

> directly... all the of pill, not just the part the dissolved.. not

just

> the parts that dissolved that the liver picked up. If it is taking

the

> pill (in my case) 45 minutes to an hour to dissolve.. that means

that the

> medication is slowly delivered to your system over that period of

time...

> The stuff is available to the body cells for the period of time

that it

> is in the blood stream... Once in the body cells and organs the

body uses

> it for whatever the purpose.....

>

> What makes more sense...? Popping the pill on the hope that it

dissolves

> fully and the liver delivers all of it to the blood stream and it's

not

> just getting flushed down the toilet? Or putting the tablet under

the

> tongue, knowing that it is being fully dissolved and going directly

into

> the blood stream for body to absorb into cells and organs?

>

> For me... under the tongue it goes... So now, when my system goes

> through a bout of diarrhea.. I'm not wondering if the pill was

dissolved

> first... Or when I get constipated.. wondering if the medicine is

> binding with the backup and not being processed at all..... I know

I'm

> getting my medication.. consistently, the entire dose, where and

when I

> need it..

>

> Make sense to me... and after reading that article about sublingual

and

> knowing its okay to do that with just about any tablet... they're

all

> going under the tongue.. except for garlic and vitamin C.... I can't

> handle the taste of either of them...!!!! hehehehehe

>

> Topper ()

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Thyroid_Support_Group/

> http://toppertwo.tripod.com

>

> On Sun, 16 Mar 2003 13:43:34 -0000 " thwacksplat "

> <zinatrotter@b...> writes:

> > Hi Janie,

> >

> > Thanks for looking. I got in a little tiff with somebody in the

> > about.com forum. They were discussing taking Cytomel (T3) with

> > food. By doing so, apparently it stays in your system longer. I

> > SUGGESTED the sublingual method, and I ruffled this one gals

> > feathers

> > pretty good. So, I guess what I'm trying to find out is once the

> > hormone is in your system, how long does it stay there. This gal

> > was

> > all over me stating that when you take meds sublingually they

don't

> > stay in your system very long. You get a " hit " and then its all

> > gone. This doesn't really make sense to me, but maybe she knows

> > something I don't?!! Anway, I really ruffled her feathers -

> > unintentionally - I think I was invading her territory. She was

> > also

> > very defense because I suggested a natrual thyroid vs. the

> > synthetics

> > they all were discussing. Sheesh, people can be so touchy! LOL

> > Anyway, whatever information you can find would be very helpful.

> > Thanks again,

> >

> > Zina

[Guest guest]

I can get really stubborn about some of my beliefs too.. but I like to

think I'm open minded enough to listen to someone elses thoughts.. and as

I posted below.. these were ideas that sounded logical to me... I offered

them in case someone could say yes or no to my thoughts...

The only way that we are every gonna learn anything, to find out better

or different or easier ways is to open up to what others are doing...

Look at all the things that we've learned here in just the last few

weeks.. hormone interactions, different methods of taking different

supplements.. various interactions with foods, vitamins and minerals...

would any of us have learned a blamed thing if we'd not been open to

sharing with each other what we are doing and have tried in the past?

I think that makes us all pretty darned smart... IMHO...

Topper ()

On Sun, 16 Mar 2003 23:08:19 -0000 " thwacksplat "

writes:

> Hi Topper,

>

> Yep, I hear you loud and clear. I too want to make sure I get my

> Armour! That gal in the forum would not listen to a peep of

> what

> I had to say. I told her that some people have digestion troubles

> and the hormone might not even get absorbed. It goes right through

> their system. I tried explaining but it was like mud to her. She

> was more interested in being " right " . So, I've decided to stay away

> for that forum. There are a lot of anti-naturals there and I don't

> need the extra stress of having to defend myself all the time.

> Sheesh.

>

> Thanks Topper.

>

> Zina

>

>

> > Zina,

> >

> > Without getting really graphic and gross here, I want to bring up

> a couple of things to ponder....

[Guest guest]

Hi Jill,

It takes about 45 minutes to an hour for the Armour to dissolve (I

put it between my cheek and gum). You don't want to drink or eat

anything while you are doing this. But, after that you can eat and

drink as usual. You also can take your supplements, they won't

interfer with absorption. Actually, it is recommended to eat first,

and then take the Armour sublingually. Taking it after a meal

reduces volatility of the blood-level of T3. Also, cut your pill in

half and take one half after breakfast, and the other half after

dinner. I take my second half around three or four in the afternoon

so I don't get the afternoon sleepies. I'm new at doing this - just

started last week, but I've seen a big difference already.

Zina

> > Now, that was interesting! I've been taking my thyroid

sublingually for

> > nearly six months and noticed a big differenct.. I prefer the

control I

> > get doing it this way.. but now I know that I can increase the

benefit of

> > my other supplements as well.. vitamins, iron.. etc... cool!

heheheheh

> >

> > Topper ()

> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Thyroid_Support_Group/

> > http://toppertwo.tripod.com

[Guest guest]

Oops, I didn't know that! Thanks Topper. Hey Jill, disregard what I

said in my post to you! Sorry!

Zina

>

>

> > If I take my armour this way does that mean I don't have to worry

about

> waiting

> > an hour to eat or 4 hours before taking my iron/calcium

supplements?

> >

> Jill, you should still wait on the iron/calcium. reason being that

its not

> really an issue of absorbtion, but more an issue with how iron

binds the T3.

> It takes T3 from binding to the protiens and cells its supposed to

bind to

> and binds the hormone to the iron instead. So, still take your iron

at a

> different time than your hormones. If you are on iron, you'll

probably need

> a bigger does than what you are taking!

>

>

[Guest guest]

> If I take my armour this way does that mean I don't have to worry

about waiting

> an hour to eat or 4 hours before taking my iron/calcium

supplements?

>

> Jill in MN

Hi Jill! I used to do the sublingual method at least one hour before

I ate. But for the past several weeks, I've done it after I have

eaten breakfast, and it works great for me.

Not sure what the correct answer is for those supplements if you are

doing the Armour sublinqually. " Some " , even if little, of the Armour

gets swallowed. So maybe on the safe side, I'd still do the

calcium/iron thing later....

Janie

[Guest guest]

It is not a problem of during the digestion of the pill, but

> when it is in the bloodstream. And 4 hours is the length of time

the T3 is in

> the bloodstream?

Yes, it is a problem during the digestion IF you are swallowing an

Armour with the calcium and iron---PLUS it is a problem with your

overall daily blood level of iron and calcium. T3 is in your blood

much longer than 4 hours---it just peaks in 2-4 hours after you have

consumed/sublingualed it. For example, my free T3 is at least 4.5

two hours after I take my Armour, and it is still 3.3 more than 18

hours after I took my last dose....MUCH higher than if I was not on

anything....so it's still in there. Hooray!!

Janie

[Guest guest]

> BANGING MY HEAD

> AGAINST THE WALL! LOL

You are so funny!!

> Anyway, I think I will stay away from

> there. They really are anti natural hormone.

How can anyone with intelligence be anti-natural-hormone!!! Hmm.

Maybe they are MD's or endo's. More laughing....

Janie

[Guest guest]

That is a good point, Janie, on the small amounts that may get swallowed as

I've found that that has happened with me.

Thanks, , for putting me straight on the iron.

Zina, thank you for the info on eating first and sublingually taking the armour

afterwards. I'll try that--and split the dose also.

You all are a wealth of help!

Jill

On Sunday, March 16, 2003 7:40 PM, loboshe [sMTP:usns@...] wrote:

> Not sure what the correct answer is for those supplements if you are

> doing the Armour sublinqually. " Some " , even if little, of the Armour

> gets swallowed. So maybe on the safe side, I'd still do the

> calcium/iron thing later....

>

> Janie

>On Sunday, March 16, 2003 3:12 PM, Jobes [sMTP:nancyjobes@...]

wrote:

> >

> T3 does have a short half life, I don't remember exactly what it is. But

> that amount of time will give you the opportunity to use that T3 properly

> before adding the iron in. Those of us who need iron, and I am sure one of

> them, need to be careful with it. I know I am hypo, and I know that I am

> sick. I can say the iron has improved me, so while we have to be careful

> with it, don't stop taking it. Especially if you get heavy periods.

>

> As for your depression, yeah, more hormones will probably do the trick, and

> again, if you are on a very low dose, as well as iron, you may need more.

> I'd up it just a bit on my own in your case!

>

>

>

On Sunday, March 16, 2003 5:35 PM, thwacksplat

[sMTP:zinatrotter@...] wrote:

> Hi Jill,

>

> It takes about 45 minutes to an hour for the Armour to dissolve (I

> put it between my cheek and gum). You don't want to drink or eat

> anything while you are doing this. But, after that you can eat and

> drink as usual. You also can take your supplements, they won't

> interfer with absorption. Actually, it is recommended to eat first,

> and then take the Armour sublingually. Taking it after a meal

> reduces volatility of the blood-level of T3. Also, cut your pill in

> half and take one half after breakfast, and the other half after

> dinner. I take my second half around three or four in the afternoon

> so I don't get the afternoon sleepies. I'm new at doing this - just

> started last week, but I've seen a big difference already.

>

> Zina

> >

[Guest guest]

> I think that makes us all pretty darned smart... IMHO...

>

> Topper ()

>

personally, I think we have more info and brains than most doctors! *LOL*

[Guest guest]

Hi Topper,

You certainly hit the nail on the head! If you aren't open minded

enough to listen to what other people are doing, you really limit

what you can do for yourself.

Hey, I have a question for you or whoever may know the answer. Now

that I'm taking half my dose in the morning, sublingually, and the

other half later in the day, I'm trying to figure out the best

routine for me in doing so. Since I just learned that calcium/iron

still may interfer with the absorption of thyroid hormone, I'm trying

to figure out when to take my vitamins, now. So, after I take my

Armour, how long do I need to wait to take my vitamins? Also, if I

take my vitamins first, how long do I need to wait before I can take

my Armour?

Thanks. I certainly agree Topper, I've learned a ton in just the

last several weeks in this group. I'm so glad I found all of you!

I'd be lost without ya'll!

Cheer!

Zina

> > > Zina,

> > >

> > > Without getting really graphic and gross here, I want to bring

up

> > a couple of things to ponder....

[Guest guest]

Hi Janie,

How do you test your T3 two hours and then 18 hours after you've

taken your Armour? I thought a blood test was the only way of

looking at your T3.

Zina

> It is not a problem of during the digestion of the pill, but

> > when it is in the bloodstream. And 4 hours is the length of time

> the T3 is in

> > the bloodstream?

>

> Yes, it is a problem during the digestion IF you are swallowing an

> Armour with the calcium and iron---PLUS it is a problem with your

> overall daily blood level of iron and calcium. T3 is in your blood

> much longer than 4 hours---it just peaks in 2-4 hours after you

have

> consumed/sublingualed it. For example, my free T3 is at least 4.5

> two hours after I take my Armour, and it is still 3.3 more than 18

> hours after I took my last dose....MUCH higher than if I was not on

> anything....so it's still in there. Hooray!!

>

> Janie

[Guest guest]

> Hey, I have a question for you or whoever may know the answer. Now

> that I'm taking half my dose in the morning, sublingually, and the

> other half later in the day, I'm trying to figure out the best

> routine for me in doing so.

Take your vitamins before you go to bed. That would give your T3 all day to

work without having the iron to bind to, and the iron all night to digest

before taking your thyroid pill!