Guest guest Posted August 17, 2001 Report Share Posted August 17, 2001 I think you are taking way too much creatine. But that's MHO and everyone has one. Are three shakes because of convenience? MP > Everyone, > > Just curious, is anyone using the full list of recommended > supplements from EAS for their goals? For example to gain muscle > mass and lose fat they recommend MP Dlx, Betalean HP, Synthevol and > Betagen. > > I know there are cheaper alternatives, I am more interested in > feedback regarding the efficacy of using all of the recommended > supplements. I decided to give it a try and am overwhelmed trying to > keep my diet/supplements on track after only one week. A typical day > now includes: > > 6:00 am Betalean HP before workout + BetaGen > 7:00 am Synthevol > 7:15-7:30 am MP Dlx + BetaGen > 9:30 am Meal > 12:00 pm MP Dlx > 2:00 pm Synthevol + Betalean > 2:30 pm Meal > 5:00 pm Meal > 7:30 pm Meal (MP Dlx) > 9:00 pm BetaGen > > and that is on days when I have a regular schedule. God forbid I > have to adjust workout time... I would write more, but I think I am > late for something, just not sure what????? > > Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2001 Report Share Posted August 17, 2001 I think you are taking way too much creatine. But that's MHO and everyone has one. Are three shakes because of convenience? MP > Everyone, > > Just curious, is anyone using the full list of recommended > supplements from EAS for their goals? For example to gain muscle > mass and lose fat they recommend MP Dlx, Betalean HP, Synthevol and > Betagen. > > I know there are cheaper alternatives, I am more interested in > feedback regarding the efficacy of using all of the recommended > supplements. I decided to give it a try and am overwhelmed trying to > keep my diet/supplements on track after only one week. A typical day > now includes: > > 6:00 am Betalean HP before workout + BetaGen > 7:00 am Synthevol > 7:15-7:30 am MP Dlx + BetaGen > 9:30 am Meal > 12:00 pm MP Dlx > 2:00 pm Synthevol + Betalean > 2:30 pm Meal > 5:00 pm Meal > 7:30 pm Meal (MP Dlx) > 9:00 pm BetaGen > > and that is on days when I have a regular schedule. God forbid I > have to adjust workout time... I would write more, but I think I am > late for something, just not sure what????? > > Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 Good supplements are: Selenium - most people are deficiient and it is needed for conversion of T4 to T3 and thryoid activity in the cells and liver. Chromium - most people are deficient. It is needed for conversion of T4 to T3 and for blood sugar control, which also controls thyroid function since glucose must get into cell for energy production. Vitamin B5 - needed for proper adrenal function, which is needed for proper thyroid function. Plenty of Vitamin C - needed for the adrenals. They have the highest concentration of any part of the body. CoQ10 - up to 600 mg a day. Essential for energy production in the cell and an anticancer agent that has been found to cure breast cancer in several patients in one study. Natural progesterone cream - inhances thyroid function both on the cellular level and in the thyroid. Can really increase thyroid function if needed. Most hypos are estrogen dominant. Magnesium - needs to be in balance with calcium. If calcium gets to high with respect to magnesium, it will slow thyroid function. Vitamins B12 and Folic acid - very often low in hypos and protects the body from oxidative damage and inflammation. Digestive enzymes and Betaine hydrochrloride - Digestive enzymes and stomach acid are often low in hypos, which prevents them from taking up adequate protein and nutrients. Hypos often have low levels of blood protein and protein is needed for all the processes of thryoid function. A protein supplement is often very helpful for the reasons listed above. Probiotics for the digestive tract. Many hypos have digestive problems and need to get intestinal tract repaired. When digestive enzymes and acid go low, hypos are vulnerable to parasite and other infections. Also, low thyroid function slows the rebuilding of the intestinal lining that is required every 4 days. So, they often develope leaky gut, which really worsens the condition and general health. A good general multi-vitamin. Some doctors like Mercola recommend juicing vegetables and having that for breakfast every day. Gets you many nutrients that are well absorbable and gets other nutrients that you may not get in vitamins. Vergine Coconut oil - Increases thyroid function in the cells. Medium chain fatty acids are very easily used for energy production. See: http://www.coconut- info.com/hypothyroidism_and_virgin_coconut_oil.htm As a user, I can really vouch for this. However, if you are not on optimal levels of thyroid hormone, oils can deplete thryoid because it increases it's use. So, if your thyroid replacement dose is too low, oils will make it worse. Things to Avoid: -too many nuts of any kind - all interfere with thyroid function -too many beans and soy - slows thyroid function. Soy is very bad. -too many cruciferous vegetables like cabbage, brocoli, brussels -sprouts, etc- all these interfere with thyroid function (goitergens) - If you cook them, their goitergenicity declines significantly. So, cooking usually makes them ok. -too many simple carbos and too much sugar. For some reason hypos do much better on diets that limit these. Lower carb diets seem to improve energy. Do not go on a " no " carb diet. This will slow thyroid function. Small amounts of complex carbs are needed for maintaining proper blood sugar levels, which maintains thyroid function. -estrogens as in ERT, HRT and NHRT. - Hypos already are estrogen dominant for the most part. Estrogen causes the binding of thyroid hormone to a protein in the blood and makes it unavalable for energy. It also slows thyroid function in the thyroid. -chlorine and Floride - damaging to the thyroid. -antihistamines and aspirine used sparingly - depletes thyroid hormone in the blood. There are probably more and hopefully other will add to this. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 Good supplements are: Selenium - most people are deficiient and it is needed for conversion of T4 to T3 and thryoid activity in the cells and liver. Chromium - most people are deficient. It is needed for conversion of T4 to T3 and for blood sugar control, which also controls thyroid function since glucose must get into cell for energy production. Vitamin B5 - needed for proper adrenal function, which is needed for proper thyroid function. Plenty of Vitamin C - needed for the adrenals. They have the highest concentration of any part of the body. CoQ10 - up to 600 mg a day. Essential for energy production in the cell and an anticancer agent that has been found to cure breast cancer in several patients in one study. Natural progesterone cream - inhances thyroid function both on the cellular level and in the thyroid. Can really increase thyroid function if needed. Most hypos are estrogen dominant. Magnesium - needs to be in balance with calcium. If calcium gets to high with respect to magnesium, it will slow thyroid function. Vitamins B12 and Folic acid - very often low in hypos and protects the body from oxidative damage and inflammation. Digestive enzymes and Betaine hydrochrloride - Digestive enzymes and stomach acid are often low in hypos, which prevents them from taking up adequate protein and nutrients. Hypos often have low levels of blood protein and protein is needed for all the processes of thryoid function. A protein supplement is often very helpful for the reasons listed above. Probiotics for the digestive tract. Many hypos have digestive problems and need to get intestinal tract repaired. When digestive enzymes and acid go low, hypos are vulnerable to parasite and other infections. Also, low thyroid function slows the rebuilding of the intestinal lining that is required every 4 days. So, they often develope leaky gut, which really worsens the condition and general health. A good general multi-vitamin. Some doctors like Mercola recommend juicing vegetables and having that for breakfast every day. Gets you many nutrients that are well absorbable and gets other nutrients that you may not get in vitamins. Vergine Coconut oil - Increases thyroid function in the cells. Medium chain fatty acids are very easily used for energy production. See: http://www.coconut- info.com/hypothyroidism_and_virgin_coconut_oil.htm As a user, I can really vouch for this. However, if you are not on optimal levels of thyroid hormone, oils can deplete thryoid because it increases it's use. So, if your thyroid replacement dose is too low, oils will make it worse. Things to Avoid: -too many nuts of any kind - all interfere with thyroid function -too many beans and soy - slows thyroid function. Soy is very bad. -too many cruciferous vegetables like cabbage, brocoli, brussels -sprouts, etc- all these interfere with thyroid function (goitergens) - If you cook them, their goitergenicity declines significantly. So, cooking usually makes them ok. -too many simple carbos and too much sugar. For some reason hypos do much better on diets that limit these. Lower carb diets seem to improve energy. Do not go on a " no " carb diet. This will slow thyroid function. Small amounts of complex carbs are needed for maintaining proper blood sugar levels, which maintains thyroid function. -estrogens as in ERT, HRT and NHRT. - Hypos already are estrogen dominant for the most part. Estrogen causes the binding of thyroid hormone to a protein in the blood and makes it unavalable for energy. It also slows thyroid function in the thyroid. -chlorine and Floride - damaging to the thyroid. -antihistamines and aspirine used sparingly - depletes thyroid hormone in the blood. There are probably more and hopefully other will add to this. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 Good supplements are: Selenium - most people are deficiient and it is needed for conversion of T4 to T3 and thryoid activity in the cells and liver. Chromium - most people are deficient. It is needed for conversion of T4 to T3 and for blood sugar control, which also controls thyroid function since glucose must get into cell for energy production. Vitamin B5 - needed for proper adrenal function, which is needed for proper thyroid function. Plenty of Vitamin C - needed for the adrenals. They have the highest concentration of any part of the body. CoQ10 - up to 600 mg a day. Essential for energy production in the cell and an anticancer agent that has been found to cure breast cancer in several patients in one study. Natural progesterone cream - inhances thyroid function both on the cellular level and in the thyroid. Can really increase thyroid function if needed. Most hypos are estrogen dominant. Magnesium - needs to be in balance with calcium. If calcium gets to high with respect to magnesium, it will slow thyroid function. Vitamins B12 and Folic acid - very often low in hypos and protects the body from oxidative damage and inflammation. Digestive enzymes and Betaine hydrochrloride - Digestive enzymes and stomach acid are often low in hypos, which prevents them from taking up adequate protein and nutrients. Hypos often have low levels of blood protein and protein is needed for all the processes of thryoid function. A protein supplement is often very helpful for the reasons listed above. Probiotics for the digestive tract. Many hypos have digestive problems and need to get intestinal tract repaired. When digestive enzymes and acid go low, hypos are vulnerable to parasite and other infections. Also, low thyroid function slows the rebuilding of the intestinal lining that is required every 4 days. So, they often develope leaky gut, which really worsens the condition and general health. A good general multi-vitamin. Some doctors like Mercola recommend juicing vegetables and having that for breakfast every day. Gets you many nutrients that are well absorbable and gets other nutrients that you may not get in vitamins. Vergine Coconut oil - Increases thyroid function in the cells. Medium chain fatty acids are very easily used for energy production. See: http://www.coconut- info.com/hypothyroidism_and_virgin_coconut_oil.htm As a user, I can really vouch for this. However, if you are not on optimal levels of thyroid hormone, oils can deplete thryoid because it increases it's use. So, if your thyroid replacement dose is too low, oils will make it worse. Things to Avoid: -too many nuts of any kind - all interfere with thyroid function -too many beans and soy - slows thyroid function. Soy is very bad. -too many cruciferous vegetables like cabbage, brocoli, brussels -sprouts, etc- all these interfere with thyroid function (goitergens) - If you cook them, their goitergenicity declines significantly. So, cooking usually makes them ok. -too many simple carbos and too much sugar. For some reason hypos do much better on diets that limit these. Lower carb diets seem to improve energy. Do not go on a " no " carb diet. This will slow thyroid function. Small amounts of complex carbs are needed for maintaining proper blood sugar levels, which maintains thyroid function. -estrogens as in ERT, HRT and NHRT. - Hypos already are estrogen dominant for the most part. Estrogen causes the binding of thyroid hormone to a protein in the blood and makes it unavalable for energy. It also slows thyroid function in the thyroid. -chlorine and Floride - damaging to the thyroid. -antihistamines and aspirine used sparingly - depletes thyroid hormone in the blood. There are probably more and hopefully other will add to this. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 Wow. This was a great list! I have been afraid to add much to my supplementation as I tend to be reactive to a lot of medications and vitamin supplements. At the moment, I have gone off everything, in fact, to help myself heal from the insomnia I've had for the last six weeks. I will be adding back the following: allergen-free multivitamin, liquid CalMag and a vitamin B-Complex. If there was one other thing I could safely add to this mix, I would very much appreciate it. Best wishes-- Courtenay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 Wow. This was a great list! I have been afraid to add much to my supplementation as I tend to be reactive to a lot of medications and vitamin supplements. At the moment, I have gone off everything, in fact, to help myself heal from the insomnia I've had for the last six weeks. I will be adding back the following: allergen-free multivitamin, liquid CalMag and a vitamin B-Complex. If there was one other thing I could safely add to this mix, I would very much appreciate it. Best wishes-- Courtenay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 Wow. This was a great list! I have been afraid to add much to my supplementation as I tend to be reactive to a lot of medications and vitamin supplements. At the moment, I have gone off everything, in fact, to help myself heal from the insomnia I've had for the last six weeks. I will be adding back the following: allergen-free multivitamin, liquid CalMag and a vitamin B-Complex. If there was one other thing I could safely add to this mix, I would very much appreciate it. Best wishes-- Courtenay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 Have you had your ferritin checked yet? If you have a low ferritin level, you may need iron. -----Original Message-----From: Courtenay Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 10:33 AMTo: Texas_Thyroid_Groups Subject: Re: supplements Wow. This was a great list! I have been afraid to add much to my supplementation as I tend to be reactive to a lot of medications and vitamin supplements. At the moment, I have gone off everything, in fact, to help myself heal from the insomnia I've had for the last six weeks. I will be adding back the following: allergen-free multivitamin, liquid CalMag and a vitamin B-Complex. If there was one other thing I could safely add to this mix, I would very much appreciate it. Best wishes-- Courtenay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 Have you had your ferritin checked yet? If you have a low ferritin level, you may need iron. -----Original Message-----From: Courtenay Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 10:33 AMTo: Texas_Thyroid_Groups Subject: Re: supplements Wow. This was a great list! I have been afraid to add much to my supplementation as I tend to be reactive to a lot of medications and vitamin supplements. At the moment, I have gone off everything, in fact, to help myself heal from the insomnia I've had for the last six weeks. I will be adding back the following: allergen-free multivitamin, liquid CalMag and a vitamin B-Complex. If there was one other thing I could safely add to this mix, I would very much appreciate it. Best wishes-- Courtenay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 Have you had your ferritin checked yet? If you have a low ferritin level, you may need iron. -----Original Message-----From: Courtenay Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 10:33 AMTo: Texas_Thyroid_Groups Subject: Re: supplements Wow. This was a great list! I have been afraid to add much to my supplementation as I tend to be reactive to a lot of medications and vitamin supplements. At the moment, I have gone off everything, in fact, to help myself heal from the insomnia I've had for the last six weeks. I will be adding back the following: allergen-free multivitamin, liquid CalMag and a vitamin B-Complex. If there was one other thing I could safely add to this mix, I would very much appreciate it. Best wishes-- Courtenay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 I had a hemoglobulin test, which came back slightly abnormal. Instead of testing my ferritin, he tested my B12 levels. B12 came back fine. I still think I need to have my ferritin checked. Since my dosage increase, I feel bloody awful. Then, it starts to clear up around evening time. Aaaaargh. Best-- Courtenay. Have you had your ferritin checked yet? If you have a low ferritin level, you may need iron. -----Original Message----- From: Courtenay Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 10:33 AM To: Texas_Thyroid_Groups Subject: Re: supplements Wow. This was a great list! I have been afraid to add much to my supplementation as I tend to be reactive to a lot of medications and vitamin supplements. At the moment, I have gone off everything, in fact, to help myself heal from the insomnia I've had for the last six weeks. I will be adding back the following: allergen-free multivitamin, liquid CalMag and a vitamin B-Complex. If there was one other thing I could safely add to this mix, I would very much appreciate it. Best wishes-- Courtenay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 I had a hemoglobulin test, which came back slightly abnormal. Instead of testing my ferritin, he tested my B12 levels. B12 came back fine. I still think I need to have my ferritin checked. Since my dosage increase, I feel bloody awful. Then, it starts to clear up around evening time. Aaaaargh. Best-- Courtenay. Have you had your ferritin checked yet? If you have a low ferritin level, you may need iron. -----Original Message----- From: Courtenay Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 10:33 AM To: Texas_Thyroid_Groups Subject: Re: supplements Wow. This was a great list! I have been afraid to add much to my supplementation as I tend to be reactive to a lot of medications and vitamin supplements. At the moment, I have gone off everything, in fact, to help myself heal from the insomnia I've had for the last six weeks. I will be adding back the following: allergen-free multivitamin, liquid CalMag and a vitamin B-Complex. If there was one other thing I could safely add to this mix, I would very much appreciate it. Best wishes-- Courtenay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 I had a hemoglobulin test, which came back slightly abnormal. Instead of testing my ferritin, he tested my B12 levels. B12 came back fine. I still think I need to have my ferritin checked. Since my dosage increase, I feel bloody awful. Then, it starts to clear up around evening time. Aaaaargh. Best-- Courtenay. Have you had your ferritin checked yet? If you have a low ferritin level, you may need iron. -----Original Message----- From: Courtenay Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 10:33 AM To: Texas_Thyroid_Groups Subject: Re: supplements Wow. This was a great list! I have been afraid to add much to my supplementation as I tend to be reactive to a lot of medications and vitamin supplements. At the moment, I have gone off everything, in fact, to help myself heal from the insomnia I've had for the last six weeks. I will be adding back the following: allergen-free multivitamin, liquid CalMag and a vitamin B-Complex. If there was one other thing I could safely add to this mix, I would very much appreciate it. Best wishes-- Courtenay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 Aww Courtenay, now it's my turn to say I'm sorry you're feeling awful. I am just so confident that both of us are going to get to feeling much, much better but I keep reading over and over again that it takes time. Sometimes a lot of time. We just have to hang in there. Yes, I would urge you to have your ferritin checked. I've posted low ferritin symptoms before but if you'd like, I can e-mail them directly to you. Some people can't increase thyroid meds very well unless they are also working on bringing their ferritin levels up. Hang in there. -----Original Message-----From: Courtenay Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 1:35 PMTo: Texas_Thyroid_Groups Subject: RE: Re: supplements I had a hemoglobulin test, which came back slightly abnormal. Instead of testing my ferritin, he tested my B12 levels. B12 came back fine. I still think I need to have my ferritin checked. Since my dosage increase, I feel bloody awful. Then, it starts to clear up around evening time. Aaaaargh. Best-- Courtenay. Have you had your ferritin checked yet? If you have a low ferritin level, you may need iron. Courtenay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 Aww Courtenay, now it's my turn to say I'm sorry you're feeling awful. I am just so confident that both of us are going to get to feeling much, much better but I keep reading over and over again that it takes time. Sometimes a lot of time. We just have to hang in there. Yes, I would urge you to have your ferritin checked. I've posted low ferritin symptoms before but if you'd like, I can e-mail them directly to you. Some people can't increase thyroid meds very well unless they are also working on bringing their ferritin levels up. Hang in there. -----Original Message-----From: Courtenay Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 1:35 PMTo: Texas_Thyroid_Groups Subject: RE: Re: supplements I had a hemoglobulin test, which came back slightly abnormal. Instead of testing my ferritin, he tested my B12 levels. B12 came back fine. I still think I need to have my ferritin checked. Since my dosage increase, I feel bloody awful. Then, it starts to clear up around evening time. Aaaaargh. Best-- Courtenay. Have you had your ferritin checked yet? If you have a low ferritin level, you may need iron. Courtenay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2004 Report Share Posted October 4, 2004 Aww Courtenay, now it's my turn to say I'm sorry you're feeling awful. I am just so confident that both of us are going to get to feeling much, much better but I keep reading over and over again that it takes time. Sometimes a lot of time. We just have to hang in there. Yes, I would urge you to have your ferritin checked. I've posted low ferritin symptoms before but if you'd like, I can e-mail them directly to you. Some people can't increase thyroid meds very well unless they are also working on bringing their ferritin levels up. Hang in there. -----Original Message-----From: Courtenay Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 1:35 PMTo: Texas_Thyroid_Groups Subject: RE: Re: supplements I had a hemoglobulin test, which came back slightly abnormal. Instead of testing my ferritin, he tested my B12 levels. B12 came back fine. I still think I need to have my ferritin checked. Since my dosage increase, I feel bloody awful. Then, it starts to clear up around evening time. Aaaaargh. Best-- Courtenay. Have you had your ferritin checked yet? If you have a low ferritin level, you may need iron. Courtenay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 > Since my dosage increase, I feel bloody awful. Then, it starts to > clear up around evening time. Aaaaargh. __________________ This is most likely adrenal problems or adrenal fatigue. I got insomnial for two months from this. Adrenal fatigue is very common in hypothyroidism because thyroid levels in the blood control adrenal size and output. So, low thyroid makes weak adrenals that can't handle upping doses. Raising thyroid causes the adrenals to become depleted for several weeks or more. You get symptoms of thryoid excess because adrenal cortisol is needed for thyroid to get into tissues and for tissues to use T3, and so without enough, you get a build up of thyroid hormone in the blood giving symptoms of excess. Adrenal fatigue typically causes you to feel absolutely terrible in the mornings and improve by late afternoon or evening. Adrenal demands are double in the morning and taper off throughout the day. So, by evening they have finally caught up to what is needed. You could probably feel better with adrenal support of some kind. This would be IsoCort or Nutri+meds adrenal. This would allow your adrenals to rest and catch up and might make you able to sleep better after a week or so. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 Tish-- Is it safe to do this without a saliva test? I am pretty darn sure I've got adrenal problems in spades, but all my morning blood tests have come back normal. They even did a cortisol injection test that came back normal. Here's my reasoning for adrenal fatigue. I definitely fall within the range of symptoms. Plus, I was undiagnosed for ten years, from the age of 20 until now. In my early twenties, I worked as a journalist and a dance teacher, while putting myself through undergraduate school, sometimes working up to three jobs a semester, plus working on private projects on the side (fiction, poetry, photography). Then, I went off to graduate school where I wrote my second novel (both unpublished at this time) and was dirt poor. I came back here, and have been known to work at three different colleges simultaneously while doing art shows and writing a great deal. And let's not even get into my personal life... I'm not bringing up this history to gild the lily, but the fact of the matter is, by the time I finished the last fall semester, I totally collapsed and have not been the same since. Oh, and in case y'all are wondering if I have had anything published that you've ever seen, just google my name: Courtenay . I've got one book of poetry floating around in cyberspace for less than $10. Best-- Courtenay. > Since my dosage increase, I feel bloody awful. Then, it starts to > clear up around evening time. Aaaaargh. __________________ This is most likely adrenal problems or adrenal fatigue. I got insomnial for two months from this. Adrenal fatigue is very common in hypothyroidism because thyroid levels in the blood control adrenal size and output. So, low thyroid makes weak adrenals that can't handle upping doses. Raising thyroid causes the adrenals to become depleted for several weeks or more. You get symptoms of thryoid excess because adrenal cortisol is needed for thyroid to get into tissues and for tissues to use T3, and so without enough, you get a build up of thyroid hormone in the blood giving symptoms of excess. Adrenal fatigue typically causes you to feel absolutely terrible in the mornings and improve by late afternoon or evening. Adrenal demands are double in the morning and taper off throughout the day. So, by evening they have finally caught up to what is needed. You could probably feel better with adrenal support of some kind. This would be IsoCort or Nutri+meds adrenal. This would allow your adrenals to rest and catch up and might make you able to sleep better after a week or so. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 Dear Courtenay, Yes it is possible to have adrenal problems that don't show up on tests. The Adrenal stimulation test, especially, can give false results. A good book to read on that is Jeffries " Safe Uses of Cortisol " . In it he talks about the stimulation test coming back normal in those who have hypothalamus output that is low or not quite functioning right. In this case, the adrenals are often just fine, but the hypothalamus is not working right and therefore not telling the adrenals to put out enough hormone in stress situations. So, everything looks normal when you are calmly sitting in the doctor's office, but when you are under stress, output does not go up enough for it. In stress, adrenal output needs to go as high as double or more. The current adrenal tests are really geared more for adrenal failure and so are not so good at picking up fatigue. Typical adrenal fatigue results are in the normal range, but below the midline of the range. So, for instance, the adrenals need to put out 30mg in the morning and in adrenal fatigue, this can be a little low, like 18mg or the low 20s. In the afternoon, adrenal output needs to be 15. In adrenal fatigue, it can be 12 or 8mg. All are considered normal, but they are low enough to make the person feel unwell. Another thing that can happen to the adrenals is that they can have low reserves. The adrenals are supposed to store about 3 weeks worth of hormones for stress situations. Sometimes, especially in thyroid treatment, they loose their reserves and cannot build them back up. Or, they have low reserve capacity. In this situation, you would look perfectly normal on tests, but in stress, you would run low. Thyroid therapy tends to cause the loss of adrenal reserves. It happens by the fact that being hypothyroid can reduce reserve capacity as much as 60% or more and shrink the gland to half it's normal size. The body adapts to this change by slowing the breakdown of cortisol and slowing removal of it from the body. But, the minute you take a thyroid pill, the breakdown and removal of cortisol suddenly goes way up as the body begins to function at a higher metabolic rate. The need for cortisol greatly increases because the metabolic rate has gone up and the body is increasing it's wear and tear and demands for energy raw materials like glucose and protein made available by the actions of cortisol. The result is that the adrenals quickly loose their stores and at the same time have demands higher than they can meet. So, they cannot replenish their stores because they can barely keep up with demand. When this happens the adrenals go into a state of wide fluctuations. They will stop putting out hormones for a while, while they try to build some up. This temporary stop causes the hypothalamus to sense that cortisol is low and put out lots of ACTH. ACTH builds up in the blood and then when the adrenals finally make enough hormone to release and they see that there is lots of ACTH. They think a crisis has happened and they dump everything they have made. This causes an up and own cycle of output in the day. If you take a 24 hour cortisol test it can all average out to be normal, but in reality it isn't. This cycling up and down causes you to loose your circadian rythem and usually results in periods in the day when cortisol is either high or low. By the afternoon, when cortisol demands are low and the adrenals have had to rest up in the morning, when they can't manage the high demands, the adrenals manage manage to put out enough for that part of the day. So, you feel bad in the morning and start to recover later in the day. The body requires that the adrenals put out high levels in the morning and then taper off throughout the day in order to produce seratonin, which is made into melatonin at night, Other things for sleep are also dependent on the adrenals working smoothly. So, this up and down cycling causes you to loose your circadian rythem and become an insomniac. Low dose cortisol therapy is not harmful even for a healthy person. The reason is that the healthy adrenals put out 35 to 40 mg a day of cortisol. The typical doctor prescribed adrenal support is 20mg or less. You cannot overdose on anything less than what the body makes in a day. This is because the brain will sense the dose you are taking and adjust down the output of the adrenals so the blood levels of cortisol stay below 35 to 40 mg. The best book to read up on this is " Safe Uses of Cortisol. " Jeffries spent his life researching and using low dose cortisol. Cortisol got it's bad reputation from the hugely high doses first used when it was firt studied. These doses were commonly 100 mg a day or more. If a healthy person uses 20mg of cortisol, their adrenal output will drop down so that total daily cortisol does not exceed 35 to 40 mg. If they continue to do this, evnetually after about 4 weeks they will become dependent and adrenal reserve and size will drop to reflect the low demands needed of them. To reverse this, all the person has to do is taper off the cortisol and everything will go back to normal. If an adrenally stressed person uses low dose cortisol, it gives the adrenals a chance to rest, rebuild and restore their stores. It is actually helpful for them and it works to stop the up and down cycling. Over time, when they have recovered, they will be dependent too like the normal person. Then, you simply taper off slowly. Some thyroid patients also have auto- immune adrenal damage and these people will have permanent loss of adrenal reserve and will need some support all their lives to be fully healthy. When adrenal output goes below what is nromal, immune function declines, inflammation gets out of control and there is increased risk of other outo-immune conditions developing, along with allergies and sensitivities. Adrenal function must not be too low or too high for the best health and immune function. So, you can decide whether you want to do this or not. A short course of low dose therapy to see if it would help would not be harmful and may help. Just be sure to taper off slowly. If you decide not to do that, then, you must focus of nutrition, eating many frequent and healthy meals in a day, getting a minimum of 7 hours sleep a night, but 9 is best for recovery, avoiding stress, resting a lot and lying down for 10 minutes a few times a day, and cutting exercise to short 10 minute sessions with ample time between for the adrenals in order to recover. Recovery takes up to 2 years or more. If the adrenals have been damaged permanently, then they may not fully recover. I have been hypo for 30 years before I finally got a diagnosis and my adrenals still have not recovered after 2 years of thryoid therapy. Since I was low thyroid in gradeschool, they may not have ever developed properly. For me adrenal support has been helpful and made it possible to keep my job. I think you just have to weigh everything and decide what is best for you. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 Dear Courtenay, Yes it is possible to have adrenal problems that don't show up on tests. The Adrenal stimulation test, especially, can give false results. A good book to read on that is Jeffries " Safe Uses of Cortisol " . In it he talks about the stimulation test coming back normal in those who have hypothalamus output that is low or not quite functioning right. In this case, the adrenals are often just fine, but the hypothalamus is not working right and therefore not telling the adrenals to put out enough hormone in stress situations. So, everything looks normal when you are calmly sitting in the doctor's office, but when you are under stress, output does not go up enough for it. In stress, adrenal output needs to go as high as double or more. The current adrenal tests are really geared more for adrenal failure and so are not so good at picking up fatigue. Typical adrenal fatigue results are in the normal range, but below the midline of the range. So, for instance, the adrenals need to put out 30mg in the morning and in adrenal fatigue, this can be a little low, like 18mg or the low 20s. In the afternoon, adrenal output needs to be 15. In adrenal fatigue, it can be 12 or 8mg. All are considered normal, but they are low enough to make the person feel unwell. Another thing that can happen to the adrenals is that they can have low reserves. The adrenals are supposed to store about 3 weeks worth of hormones for stress situations. Sometimes, especially in thyroid treatment, they loose their reserves and cannot build them back up. Or, they have low reserve capacity. In this situation, you would look perfectly normal on tests, but in stress, you would run low. Thyroid therapy tends to cause the loss of adrenal reserves. It happens by the fact that being hypothyroid can reduce reserve capacity as much as 60% or more and shrink the gland to half it's normal size. The body adapts to this change by slowing the breakdown of cortisol and slowing removal of it from the body. But, the minute you take a thyroid pill, the breakdown and removal of cortisol suddenly goes way up as the body begins to function at a higher metabolic rate. The need for cortisol greatly increases because the metabolic rate has gone up and the body is increasing it's wear and tear and demands for energy raw materials like glucose and protein made available by the actions of cortisol. The result is that the adrenals quickly loose their stores and at the same time have demands higher than they can meet. So, they cannot replenish their stores because they can barely keep up with demand. When this happens the adrenals go into a state of wide fluctuations. They will stop putting out hormones for a while, while they try to build some up. This temporary stop causes the hypothalamus to sense that cortisol is low and put out lots of ACTH. ACTH builds up in the blood and then when the adrenals finally make enough hormone to release and they see that there is lots of ACTH. They think a crisis has happened and they dump everything they have made. This causes an up and own cycle of output in the day. If you take a 24 hour cortisol test it can all average out to be normal, but in reality it isn't. This cycling up and down causes you to loose your circadian rythem and usually results in periods in the day when cortisol is either high or low. By the afternoon, when cortisol demands are low and the adrenals have had to rest up in the morning, when they can't manage the high demands, the adrenals manage manage to put out enough for that part of the day. So, you feel bad in the morning and start to recover later in the day. The body requires that the adrenals put out high levels in the morning and then taper off throughout the day in order to produce seratonin, which is made into melatonin at night, Other things for sleep are also dependent on the adrenals working smoothly. So, this up and down cycling causes you to loose your circadian rythem and become an insomniac. Low dose cortisol therapy is not harmful even for a healthy person. The reason is that the healthy adrenals put out 35 to 40 mg a day of cortisol. The typical doctor prescribed adrenal support is 20mg or less. You cannot overdose on anything less than what the body makes in a day. This is because the brain will sense the dose you are taking and adjust down the output of the adrenals so the blood levels of cortisol stay below 35 to 40 mg. The best book to read up on this is " Safe Uses of Cortisol. " Jeffries spent his life researching and using low dose cortisol. Cortisol got it's bad reputation from the hugely high doses first used when it was firt studied. These doses were commonly 100 mg a day or more. If a healthy person uses 20mg of cortisol, their adrenal output will drop down so that total daily cortisol does not exceed 35 to 40 mg. If they continue to do this, evnetually after about 4 weeks they will become dependent and adrenal reserve and size will drop to reflect the low demands needed of them. To reverse this, all the person has to do is taper off the cortisol and everything will go back to normal. If an adrenally stressed person uses low dose cortisol, it gives the adrenals a chance to rest, rebuild and restore their stores. It is actually helpful for them and it works to stop the up and down cycling. Over time, when they have recovered, they will be dependent too like the normal person. Then, you simply taper off slowly. Some thyroid patients also have auto- immune adrenal damage and these people will have permanent loss of adrenal reserve and will need some support all their lives to be fully healthy. When adrenal output goes below what is nromal, immune function declines, inflammation gets out of control and there is increased risk of other outo-immune conditions developing, along with allergies and sensitivities. Adrenal function must not be too low or too high for the best health and immune function. So, you can decide whether you want to do this or not. A short course of low dose therapy to see if it would help would not be harmful and may help. Just be sure to taper off slowly. If you decide not to do that, then, you must focus of nutrition, eating many frequent and healthy meals in a day, getting a minimum of 7 hours sleep a night, but 9 is best for recovery, avoiding stress, resting a lot and lying down for 10 minutes a few times a day, and cutting exercise to short 10 minute sessions with ample time between for the adrenals in order to recover. Recovery takes up to 2 years or more. If the adrenals have been damaged permanently, then they may not fully recover. I have been hypo for 30 years before I finally got a diagnosis and my adrenals still have not recovered after 2 years of thryoid therapy. Since I was low thyroid in gradeschool, they may not have ever developed properly. For me adrenal support has been helpful and made it possible to keep my job. I think you just have to weigh everything and decide what is best for you. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 I think I must have been running almost exclusively on adrenalin for the last few years, since my thyroid has been semi-dysfunctional. When I was first sick, my adrenalin would occasionally spike in response to stress, and I would actually get nauseous from it. It appears that I have been behaving like someone recovering from adrenal issues. Since becoming ill, I do sleep about nine hours a night. I have been avoiding stress with the help of my family, and I am not well enough to work yet. (Going back to teaching in January on a limited basis.) The reduction in activity has helped quite a bit, but I do not handle medication increases well. I will seriously look into adrenal support on my own. I hope that has had a better experience today with her adrenal medication-- she was so sick yesterday after taking it. Tish, how in the world did you manage to get by for thirty years without anyone noticing you had a thyroid problem? That is terrible! Best wishes-- Courtenay. I have been hypo for 30 years before I finally got a diagnosis and my adrenals still have not recovered after 2 years of thryoid therapy. Since I was low thyroid in gradeschool, they may not have ever developed properly. For me adrenal support has been helpful and made it possible to keep my job. I think you just have to weigh everything and decide what is best for you. Tish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 Since my dosage increase, I feel bloody awful. Then, it starts to clear up around evening time. Aaaaargh. Best-- Courtenay This is the exact pattern of struggling adrenal glands, feeling like crappola all day, with them gradually "doing their thing" going t'wd the evening, then feeling normal and alert the rest of the night, that is, until the next day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 We cannot burn the candle at both ends forever and get away with it. Anyone on these boards can probably testify to that one. Who in the world can stop and smell the roses, after all this. Then again, some people are extremely driven, for reasons that can't be explained here. All these activities ARE the roses for them, but at what price? Re: supplements Tish-- Is it safe to do this without a saliva test? I am pretty darn sure I've got adrenal problems in spades, but all my morning blood tests have come back normal. They even did a cortisol injection test that came back normal. Here's my reasoning for adrenal fatigue. I definitely fall within the range of symptoms. Plus, I was undiagnosed for ten years, from the age of 20 until now. In my early twenties, I worked as a journalist and a dance teacher, while putting myself through undergraduate school, sometimes working up to three jobs a semester, plus working on private projects on the side (fiction, poetry, photography). Then, I went off to graduate school where I wrote my second novel (both unpublished at this time) and was dirt poor. I came back here, and have been known to work at three different colleges simultaneously while doing art shows and writing a great deal. And let's not even get into my personal life... I'm not bringing up this history to gild the lily, but the fact of the matter is, by the time I finished the last fall semester, I totally collapsed and have not been the same since. Oh, and in case y'all are wondering if I have had anything published that you've ever seen, just google my name: Courtenay . I've got one book of poetry floating around in cyberspace for less than $10. Best-- Courtenay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 All this is why the saliva tests are going to reflect more of what's going on. Blood tests are just no good for this. Re: supplements > > > Dear Courtenay, > Yes it is possible to have adrenal problems that don't show up on > tests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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