Re: Multi-rant

[Guest guest]

>It is a violation of my person to touch me without my permission!

>If you want a hug, ask me FIRST. If you feel the need to kiss me

>on my head, suppress it. If you touch me and I tell you never to

>do it again, respect that! I have the right to not be touched,

>why can’t other people keep their persons to themselves?

>

I agree with what you say. However Children naturally experiment

with each other. WHen I was a child kids would play Doctors and

Nurses and also kiss chase was frequent. This was a variation of Tag

and it was normally the girls doing the chasing. The girls would

chase you and if they found you they would kiss you. Then you had a

chance to kiss them.

In my Special School there was no age limit. Children of 8 played

around with 15 year old boys and girls. Granted their mentality was

roughly that of an 8 year old, but their sexual feelings were that of

a 15 year old. I am not going to draw you a picture but things went

on that should not of.

Children that hug others really is not a crime, only if the child

says NO. Then yes I agree that steps should be taken. But boys do

not know where they are these days and neither do girls, who are

acting more like boys. I have seen gangs of girls harassing Men down

town. They are very much in your face and highly sexualised. They

are getting as bad as Men are. These days you are likley to be

approached by a Woman if she likes you or even goosed, that is they

pinch your bum in a crowded bar. It happens and as long as its fun

to you then all very well.

There are far too many adverts that show Men as brainless fools and

women as the smarter sex. These adverts say that its pay back for

what WOmen had to put up with. But I was not really aware of any of

that as I was a child whilst the sexist 70s were going on. The last

advert that made my blood boil showed a girl saying to a little boy

about a camera and how it included free processing. The boy said " Is

that good? " Then she sniggers and says " Sometimes I wonder how men

cope! " The fact of the matter is these adverts are too frequent.

Belittling Men. Men do not know where they are now. They are afraid

to talk to a girl at work encase she slaps a law suit on them. In

the UK there is a Wife Beaters Law, but there is nothing to protect

Men who have been beaten to a pulp by their wives.

In short Men are treated just like Women were in the past. Either in

Work or bombarded with it at Home. Is it any wonder that some women

mock Men and treat us like thick people. Then when an Aspie comes

along we are too good to be true. Some Aspies are willing to help

around the house and cook their Wife a meal. I know I feel its my

duty. I can clean this house better than and she admits it.

It doesn't make me gay or a wimp because I do my share of the work

here. I despise Men that sit on their arse and expect Women to run

around after them. Also if had a sexy dress on etc. I would

not tell her to shift so I could watch Match of the Day. I think the

best sport is in the bedroom.

Steve

My Aspergers Groups

http://www.geocities.com/chemerelite

http://clix.to/chemer

[Guest guest]

>>(its enough to drive a man to drink :-)

>

>How could one post possibly make you want to drink? You don't have

>issues with alcohol, do you? That would be bad for an aspie.

>

>Jeanette

>

I have issues with Alcohol. I normally say to a pint of beer I am

going to drink you and then I do Now there you go an Aspie joke

for you.

Steve

My Aspergers Groups

http://www.geocities.com/chemerelite

http://clix.to/chemer

[Guest guest]

>>

>>This is not feminism, it is humanism. If a girl behaved in the

>same way, the consequence would hopefully be the same.

I can assure you it would not be. I can remember a girl who bullied

some boys and the boys got into trouble when she went crying to the

Teacher that they hit her. The Teacher immediately took the girls

side as she was cute and blonde and a good actress and of course the

boys were the bad guys right!!!! Wrong. That girl got pregnant at

15 and got on drugs later on. The boys are now Accountants and

Lawyers.

I can guarantee that if it were a girl that had of done that it would

of been dealt with far more reasonably. For god sake as I said Kiss

Chase was rife at our School and how else are Boys and Girls going to

find out naturally about relationships. Deny them this and they will

grow up maladjusted and not able to form any.

Steve

My Aspergers Groups

http://www.geocities.com/chemerelite

http://clix.to/chemer

[Guest guest]

Chemer danced around singing:

>Children that hug others really is not a crime, only if the child

>says NO. Then yes I agree that steps should be taken.

Thing is, there are a lot of kids/people that are too timid to say " no " and

they then wind up basically being molested... To say it's okay

until/unless the person says " no " means the default is always " yes " which

is incorrect, especially in the crowd of people (autistics and many

otherwise disabled individuals) that are forcibly taught to not protest

being touched regardless of their preference. In fact, that is even an

issue in some relationships, where one partner (male or female) is sexually

used against his/her will because they believe they have no choice except

to sit there passively and try to ignore what is happening.

> But boys do

>not know where they are these days and neither do girls, who are

>acting more like boys. I have seen gangs of girls harassing Men down

>town. They are very much in your face and highly sexualised. They

>are getting as bad as Men are.

It just means that both genders are acting naturally, rather than adhering

to conventions that more narrow-minded individuals came up with. I've

always acted more like a boy just by my natural personality, even though my

parents *encouraged* me to be feminine in a variety of ways; I know

precisely where/what I am, and I tend to be annoyed by people telling me

that I ought to act differently just because I was born with internal

reproductive organs.

DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

You may not be able to change the world,

but at least you can embarrass the guilty.

-- Mitford

[Guest guest]

Chemer danced around singing:

>I can guarantee that if it were a girl that had of done that it would

>of been dealt with far more reasonably.

Not in the junior high I attended. Males pinching, sexually touching,

sexually threatening, hitting, grabbing, and otherwise tormenting the

females was commonplace -- happened to me along with quite a few others,

and the teachers *saw* it happening. My parents actually went in and

complained, school claimed that action was taken, but it wasn't. In fact,

the only thing that happened was that my history teacher announced to the

whole class that because *I* have problems with others students, I would

have to sit alone in a corner from now on. (I was happy at the seat change

but very upset at being made the focus of attention.) The junior high, not

surprisingly, was the focus of a huge lawsuit just a few years later by a

group of other young women that had attended there and went through the

same thing that I did.

> For god sake as I said Kiss

>Chase was rife at our School and how else are Boys and Girls going to

>find out naturally about relationships. Deny them this and they will

>grow up maladjusted and not able to form any.

That's not accurate at all. Students at my schools weren't allowed to play

" kiss and chase " in elementary school, were strongly discouraged from

physically contacting one another, yet there were relationships all over

the place as soon as the hormones broke out. They had no problem with it;

just about everybody I knew in high school had an active romantic

life. That included everyone from the failing students right up through

the top-ranking ones. (Well, except me. I just wasn't interested in that

stuff. I'm still not!)

Come to think of it, what exactly would " kiss and chase " teach kids about

relationship behavior that is good? That they should run around forcing

themselves on others even if the other people run away? That they should

play games rather than speaking openly and politely about their

interest? Bleah.

Just as a side comment, one of the things that endeared Parrish to me early

on as a friend was that he asked permission to hug me when we were to first

meet. I felt respected and cared-for that he took the time to make sure I

would appreciate physical contact rather than just pushing it on me. Same

goes for when we were planning my first trip to visit him as his

girlfriend, as we weren't sure what I would be able to handle. When I was

finally there, he was careful to ask that I wanted him to do everything

from put his arm around me to intimate contact, which greatly strengthened

my sense of safety and awareness that he cared about me. We still check

with one another before trying anything new, whether it's a restaurant or

sexually oriented, and I think that it strengthens our bond rather than

weakening it.

DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

[Guest guest]

I despise Men that sit on their arse and expect Women to run

> around after them. Also if had a sexy dress on etc. I would

> not tell her to shift so I could watch Match of the Day. I think

the

> best sport is in the bedroom.

>

> Steve

Yes, how true! I have for many years wondered about this, why have a

girlfreind if a TV program is more important than the girl?

I mean if there is a good documentary on, and my (hopefully) gorgeous

future GF sits next to me in a sexy slip or whatever, well, im sure

things would progress despite my very real interest in say WW2.

Sory babe, this is the bit rommel fights back? NO! i dont think so,

not me.

So any way, that " T'v's on " attitude has always been alien to me too.

Gareth.

[Guest guest]

I think having a loving supportive relationship with your

significant other is the best way for them to learn about

relationships, but you’re right, boy and girls will experiment

regardless.

Louis

From: Chemer

>>

>>This is not feminism, it is humanism. If a girl behaved in the

>same way, the consequence would hopefully be the same.

I can assure you it would not be. I can remember a girl who

bullied

some boys and the boys got into trouble when she went crying to

the

Teacher that they hit her. The Teacher immediately took the

girls

side as she was cute and blonde and a good actress and of course

the

boys were the bad guys right!!!! Wrong. That girl got pregnant

at

15 and got on drugs later on. The boys are now Accountants and

Lawyers.

I can guarantee that if it were a girl that had of done that it

would

of been dealt with far more reasonably. For god sake as I said

Kiss

Chase was rife at our School and how else are Boys and Girls

going to

find out naturally about relationships. Deny them this and they

will

grow up maladjusted and not able to form any.

Steve

[Guest guest]

Miko715@... danced around singing:

>yes, especially if you gone all your life in autistic special school, and was

>forced to be compliant or else, and one did as was told because too afraid

>they are to say " no " . because if you say " no " things will go more badly

>for you,

>yes, when you are in special school setting, and you have no rights

>whatsoever it seems, as nothing you say will help you much anyway,

>restraint on chair,

>dragged across floor, yes. and saying no means you are being 'difficult' and

>you not want to be termed difficult because punished much you will be if you

>are " difficult "

Yes, that is the same way that I learned to let people do what they wished

without protest when I was a kid/teenager in the university's teaching

hospital. They expected kids to lie quietly and allow surgical procedures

to be performed upon them without anesthetic, among many other things. The

parents rarely-if-ever protest because the doctors/nurses are authority

figures, and the only result that comes from a child/teen protesting is

that they call in extra people to hold the patient down and are rougher

(causing more pain intentionally) in doing whatever it is they intend to do.

>And also persons not requesting or asking just doing, yes, like giving you no

>option, no, to choose. So one just very frightened and scared close your eyes

>and hope it will not go to badly, no. hope that if you say nothing at all you

>won't get badly hurt or damaged, no.

I picked up a tendency to become extremely, inappropriately cheerful under

those circumstances. Now people get upset at me for not taking my safety

seriously enough, and are unnerved when I find it amusing...a lot like

described her friend as being, actually. Can't fight, can't laugh,

won't cry, what am I supposed to do?

>But then that is why I read somewhere that 80% of disabled women are

>molested, raped, or taken advantage of in some way or form. I've got to

>find article,

>but it seems accurate to me.

Interesting, if you find it do post it here... According to my Disability

Activism professor (leading researcher in hate crimes & abuse of the

disabled) 67% of disabled women overall, including those with non-cognitive

impairments, reported in broad surveys that they had been violently

assaulted. He stated in class that the ratio is far higher for those with

sensory or cognitive disabilities, up in the 90 - 99% range.

In fact, in one Australian case, an HFA man was ruled to be *incapable* of

knowingly consenting to have sex by the court system, because he had been

so constantly forced to agree to violations of his personal space

throughout his life as part of 'treatment', and abuse is so common, that

the court had no choice but to assume he was being molested. (He is gay

and had stated repeatedly to the court that he was in love with the

defendant; the suit was brought against the other man by the HFA fellow's

family.) I think that says a lot of how our kind is treated, both in and

out of institutions.

> i know i have been raped before and it has made

>me more prone to be victimized again as i would be too frightened to move or

>say anything, just be in such paralysis of feardom and be stricken to the

>point

>that i just shut off and hope that if i not do anything I'll not get

>physically damaged much and over soon it will be.

I know, very similar here. I used to be very violent when mistreated, and

still become extremely angry if stressed too hard, but after a few

incidents as a young adult I now react with fear/panic to confrontation

rather than aggression. I wish I could be aggressive again instead. :-p

DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

[Guest guest]

--- Chemer wrote:

> >

> Children that hug others really is not a crime, only

> if the child

> says NO. Then yes I agree that steps should be

> taken. But boys do

> not know where they are these days and neither do

> girls, who are

> acting more like boys <snip>

----Exactly. Calling a 5 year old boy kissing a 5

year old girl on the top of the head " sexual " and

" harassment " is taking us down some slippery slopes

where I'd rather not see us head.

If the girl cried, then the problem should have

been dealt with like all other kindegarten rules: to

keep ones' hands to ones' self.

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

gareth danced around singing:

>Yes, how true! I have for many years wondered about this, why have a

>girlfreind if a TV program is more important than the girl?

While I agree with you, I'm not sure whether it's a matter of

importance. I didn't feel unimportant when Parrish watched his favorite

shows while I was there on my last visit, I just felt like he was

comfortable with me around and aware that I'm always going to be a part of

his life. There's less of a sense of " must take advantage of sexually

appealing adult NOW " when you know the person is going to be available (at

least intermittently) for many years to come.

On the other hand, if the *only* time he found me more interesting than the

television set is when I was wearing sexy stuff, I'd leave him and find

somebody interested in my brain as much as my body. :*)

DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

[Guest guest]

DeGraf danced around singing:

>On the other hand, if the *only* time he found me more interesting than the

>television set is when I was wearing sexy stuff, I'd leave him and find

>somebody interested in my brain as much as my body. :*)

Oops, I intended to add here (hit 'send' too quickly as I am on my way out

the door):

Luckily, my boyfriend likes the way I look, but isn't in love with me

because I've got a nice body. Aside from that I didn't let him *see* it

until we'd already fallen in love via e-mail, it has so many anomalies that

" wow, sexy " is *not* the first thing that comes to mind regarding

it. Anyway, I don't think I'd be willing to be with him if he wrote about

needing a " gorgeous " or " sexy " girlfriend; that strikes me as far too

shallow, and not focused enough on what I consider important about a

person. :*)

DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but it may be necessary,

from time to time, to give a stupid or misinformed beholder a black eye.

[Guest guest]

Gareth wrote:

>though, you may remember the excitement that lies in flirtation, is

>derived from the meeting and crossing of boundaries, things that we

>autistics and aspires are notoriously clueless at. Perhaps that boy was

>an aspie, an aspie that really liked her. think about it. One of the

>major things wrong with supporting the suspension, is we know little

>at all about it. Thus, the only people who feel justified to comment,

>are those that feel justified, or indeed don't notice, that they are

>filling in the huge chasms of blanks from past experience. A

>dangerous past time, and one which is regularly partaken of and

>accepted.

He COULD be an aspie. That is a different situation, but it still needs to be

addressed, and delicately. Her rights and his rights have to both be addressed.

He needs to be assessed for aspieness, and patiently taught boundaries. At 4 an

NT boy could read her body language and see that she didn't like it. If he was

an aspie, and was confused, and couldn't read body language, then it is even

more important for him to gently be taught how to deal with wanting to touch

another person. He would learn to ask a person if it was OK, and over and over

again practice and go over the scenario, not telling him touching is bad, but

showing him and explaining to him what a boundary is, without trying to change

who he is or making him feel like a bad kid. Just give him an acceptable coping

mechanism at this early age, being very explicit and detailed about the rules.

It would be of great benefit to him, as he especially needs help in learning the

rules.

The problem lies in that often NT's won't be that patient, go into that much

explanation and detail, and will make him feel like there is something wrong

with him. That will make him worse and more frustrated.

>Now supposing the boy kissed her on the head. What should have

>happened was " Hey Tony/Fred, that's wrong to do without Jane/a

>wanting you too "

Yes. If he's NT he'll get it right away hopefully and if he's aspie it'll take

more, but he can learn.

>It is certainly correct that kissing a girl once on the head and

>constantly harassing a girl are two separate events. It is my opinion

>that men haters do not truly appreciate the difference.

I did make that differentiation.

Jeanette wrote:

> Have you ever touched, kissed or hugged a woman without her

consent?

> How important is a woman's consent in sex to you? Or is it at all

important?

Gareth wrote:

>How important are underhand comments and implications to you? how

>important is it for you to get the mans consent? or is it important

>at all?

There are no underhanded comments here- just observations from statements you

gave on previous posts.

Of course, consent is important to me- how and why the hell would anyone want to

force touch upon another- especially sex? I wouldn't " force " myself upon my

man- in a relationship you love the other person and care about them- their

boundaries, feelings, wants. I would love my partner and if he wanted to be

left alone, that would be fine with me!

Hey, you never answered my question. You evaded it. I wonder why?

>Jeanette, I thoroughly despise you, your attacks on men and your

>attacks on me specifically, which lead me to feel quite disgusted in

>myself.

Yes, Gareth, it actually gives me a warm feeling inside. It makes me laugh!!

You despise me - thoroughly! Wow. I never thought I could bring out such a

visceral reaction in you- do I really affect you that much? Go ahead and hate

me- it's funny.

I am not attacking you, or would have booted me or warned me. I think I

offend you because I can see through it all to the core of what's going on with

you, and I am holding up a mirror to you, we all are, reflecting what you have

stated in your posts. If that makes you disgusted with yourself, well, what can

I say?

>P.s, you only respond to my posts because you dont like men, and i

>represent the worst kind of mean to you- one that is learning to be

>masculine, and not cower before femenists, but to be himself.

Oh, really? I respond to posts because I have something to say. Why is it I

respond to other men's posts in agreement- I even admitted that a guy was right.

Because his posts are beautifully elegant, full of meaning and supported. I wish

I could write as well as he does ().

I'm not a man-hater. There are good guys out there. Like a friend of mine in

rescue. She is going through her first pregnancy and it's making her nuts- the

hormones and such have her crying at the drop of a hat. Her husband is

wonderful. I can see that he loves her so much- sometimes she snaps at him and

she shouldn't. He is acting like a partner- helping her everyway he can, even

being understanding of her emotions while pregnant. Amazing man.

I had another friend who I thought was unreasonable with her poor husband. He

lost his job, and she didn't work. She kept spending money like mad, putting

pressure on him to buy ridiculous things they couldn't afford. I could see the

tension breaking him down. She was NOT acting like a partner. She should have

done what was best for the household, saving where she could, getting a job to

help out, etc. I was shocked.

> >(its enough to drive a man to drink :-)

>

> How could one post possibly make you want to drink? You don't have

issues with alcohol, do you? That would be bad for an aspie.

>

You never answered my question- again.

>oh, BTW, i was recently discussing having a circumsition operation to

>make sex more spiritual, and to last longer. So, i was considering,

>cutting off a part of my penis to benefit the union of man and woman.

>Im actually a pretty decent guy, really.

Gareth, that is too much information for me- thanks for sharing, but no thanks.

Must you repeatedly discuss your parts on the list? It's quite rude. It's not a

good visual, really- I'm eating here.

Are you Phallus obsessed? You remind me of Stern a little- he is obsessed

with his parts. Like a boy at 3 who discovers himself and says, " Mommy, look

what I have! Then he shows everyone, he's so excited. is stuck at that

age. At 3, that's normal and cute. A little past that, and it's not, to say the

least.

I wouldn't discuss my personal parts on any list, out of respect for myself and

others. Ick! who wants to know??? No one, of course, and you can bet I'm not

sharing.

Jeanette

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> I know, very similar here. I used to be very violent when mistreated, and

> still become extremely angry if stressed too hard, but after a few

> incidents as a young adult I now react with fear/panic to confrontation

> rather than aggression. I wish I could be aggressive again instead. :-p

It is just the opposite with me. I used to be passive and compliant. People

could walk all over me, and I thought I didn't have the right to stand up

for myself. About ten or fifteen years ago I finally got it through my head

that I had every right to defend myself.

Now my husband says I have people afraid of me. He says I can be mega

intimidating. I find that amusing. I am only 5' 2 " and with my past of

being everyone's doormat it is hard to imagine people actually being afraid

of little me!

Take care,

Gail :-) *aka Khan*

[Guest guest]

My friend Melody told me the story of her Aspie Son Arek who drew a

little girl in Kindergarden a Picture and put I LOVE YOU ON IT. The

father went Mental and threatened to call the School and have Arek

disciplined. She also told Arek who had only her as a friend that he

could not play with her anymore.

Arek could not understand what he did wrong. All he was doing was

displaying affection and the Father should of grown up.

Now this Girl is in 3rd Grade and runs around in Mini Skirts and

Lipstick and looks really slutty. God knows why her Dad allows this

and didn't allow Arek to just show how much he loved his friend. I

think Society is warped and twisted. Children are growing up not

knowing how to be affectionate and thus are having warped

relationships.

If you look in all the text books it is natural for Children to

experiment. It is natural for them to mimic Adults who they see have

relationships. Like the House Scenario. I can remember

playing Doctors and Nurses. YES THE GIRLS WERE JUST AS BAD AS THE

BOYS. I do not have to spell it out what went on in these games, but

it was just learning to know each others bodies and differences.

They are thinking in the UK now of teaching Sex Education to 5 year

olds. I am sure that would not be the case if they were allowed to

be themselves and learn naturally at their own pace.

Steve

[Guest guest]

Chemer danced around singing:

>Children are growing up not

>knowing how to be affectionate and thus are having warped

>relationships.

What evidence do you have of this? Studies you can point us to?