Re: Multi-rant

[Guest guest]

>

> That's all I got, I'm still tired from dealing with another

> outrageously ignorant " super-aspie " on another list.) 8<{)

>

> What is a " super-aspie? "

>

***joke mode on***

like a super model but more intelligent :-)

***Joke mode off***

[Guest guest]

> > >What makes you think equality is false?

> >

> >...In the recent past

> >of this (U.S. and much of " Western " ) society, there

> >was a push for greater gender equality. That didn't

> >and doesn't mean " gender sameness, " it means making

> >sure all people (regardless of gender) have equal

> >________ (equal opportunity, equal pay for equal

> >work, equal justice under the law, etc.).

>

> I agree with you. I was wondering why Gareth feels equality is

a " false

> view " as that (along with all of his misogynistic comments)

suggests he is

> against what people like you and I are in favor of. I can't

question his

> logic until I know what it actually is.

Ahem, ive been saying women and men are worth the same, but not the

same, all along.

Gareth

[Guest guest]

> >>That's all I got, I'm still tired from dealing with another

> >>outrageously ignorant " super-aspie " on another list.) 8<{)

> >

> >What is a " super-aspie? "

>

> I'm going to guess -- I think it's a derivative of the term " super-

crip "

> which is somebody with a disability that feels he is inferior

to 'normal'

> people and thus dedicates himself to tackling all kinds of

obstacles to

> feel like people respect him for his amazing deeds.

So, that would be like then, no?

Super-crips (or in

> this case super-aspies) also typically show disdain for those that

can't or

> won't do the same things, and very often speak out against

accommodating

> the disabled -- in both cases reflecting what they fear average

people feel

> about them.

Your showing disdain and *trying* to be patronising to those that are

not following your route or thoughts. Im making perfectly good points.

>

>

> DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

Welcome to the super aspie club , your the third member to

date......

[Guest guest]

>

> > Equality is false as it is taken to mean something different to

what

> > the word actually means. As most people have been arguing in the

> > previous posts, it is now taken to mean in a nutshell " theres no

> > difference3 beetween men and women "

>

> No, we're just saying men and women have more overlap within a wide

> range of (heterogenous) possibilities than you think. Of course

there

> are differences. You act like more exist than really do. And

you're

> strawmanning all over the place.

Im not strawmanning (prove it) I only seem to be acting like more

differences exist than really do because 1) im definately saying they

do exist, which is a view not often spoken, therefore it carries more

weight then if it were the predominant view. 2) that same view

appears to be abbhorent to a lot of people, therefore becomes bigger

in their minds than the words themselves. (which is a similar point

to number 1, in that they both tend to exist together.)

Gareth

>

>

>

> --

> " Disability inspiration is a form of propaganda that glosses over

> oppression while simultaneously reassuring normals about the

superiority

> of their ways. " - B.

[Guest guest]

> Equality is false as it is taken to mean something different to what

> the word actually means. As most people have been arguing in the

> previous posts, it is now taken to mean in a nutshell " theres no

> difference3 beetween men and women "

No, we're just saying men and women have more overlap within a wide

range of (heterogenous) possibilities than you think. Of course there

are differences. You act like more exist than really do. And you're

strawmanning all over the place.

--

" Disability inspiration is a form of propaganda that glosses over

oppression while simultaneously reassuring normals about the superiority

of their ways. " - B.

[Guest guest]

On Saturday, August 9, 2003 6:36 +0100 Chemer

wrote:

> In the UK you do have lots of options that I think the USA would do

> well to implement. After 6 months on Standard Unemployment you have

> to take a Scheme that is designed to get you back into work called

> " New Deal " this Scheme will find you work and not only that for the

> first 6 months pay you 60 pounds or 120 dollars a week ontop of your

> wages to get you back on your feet with rent payments etc. As the

> Government realises that people find it hard to come off benefits

> with certain debts.

I think you also have universal health care.

Here in the USA, you lose health insurance if you go off welfare,

unless your employer provides it (which they usually don't for

low-wage positions).

Ride the Music

AndyTiedye

[Guest guest]

, which is that a mans heart

> leads him to a different place than a womens. I refuse to allow

> steryotyping of us all into similar humans, a homogeonous good as i

> like to call it, without challenging it.

>

>

How interesting, thats a mistype- i meant to type homogeonous goop,

but homogeounous good is somewhat aplicable too. In so much as what

is good for the many outweighs the good of the few.... (so that

implies)

Hmmmm, star trek......

Gareth

[Guest guest]

> > >What makes you think equality is false?

> >

> >...In the recent past

> >of this (U.S. and much of " Western " ) society, there

> >was a push for greater gender equality. That didn't

> >and doesn't mean " gender sameness, " it means making

> >sure all people (regardless of gender) have equal

> >________ (equal opportunity, equal pay for equal

> >work, equal justice under the law, etc.).

>

> I agree with you. I was wondering why Gareth feels equality is

a " false

> view " as that (along with all of his misogynistic comments)

suggests he is

> against what people like you and I are in favor of. I can't

question his

> logic until I know what it actually is.

I know ive already replied to this once, but thought it may be

interesting for you to read what i posted about 20 messages before

you asked the question above, and the reply including " that suggests

he is against what people like you and i are in favour of "

If you dont understand my logic, i suggest you read my posts :-)

Why i dont agree with todays " equality " ......

*********

Because its now based on people being the same. Equality is one

thing, but the way it is taken now is to mean that people are the

same. Equality means that people are worth just as much as each

other. But they are decidily not neccessarily, indeed not ever, the

same.

*********

Really, im not a blood thirsty man, or indeed representative of the

taliban as one woman alluded to. Im a man.

Gareth

[Guest guest]

> Super-crips (or in

> >this case super-aspies) also typically show disdain for those that

> can't or

> >won't do the same things, and very often speak out against

> accommodating

> >the disabled -- in both cases reflecting what they fear average

> people feel

> >about them.

>

> Your showing disdain and *trying* to be patronising to those that are

> not following your route or thoughts. Im making perfectly good points.

> >

> >

> > DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

>

> Welcome to the super aspie club , your the third member to

> date......

> --- End forwarded message ---

>

>

>

did you even really read what she said, no? when has she ever spoken out

against accommodating the disabled? you are the one, yes, with the 'deal with

it'

attitude, yes, like we not deal with enough NT's that say this to us, yes. i

think it was by some grace you not deal with to extent of the issues others

deal with as you not be able to handle it then, no. so thank G-d you half and

half and not so many issues that you have to deal with, no, a cowering animal

you

would be if had to deal with sensory integration dysfunction or many other

symptoms peoples had to deal with, peoples different, and no one is like you

really think anymore, thank G-d.

mine nephew is labeled as Aspergers because of early speech, but he also

suffers extreme sensory problems, where he can't even brush his teeth or hair

without going through pain, even washing his hair he grits his teeth in pain, he

cries in pain just hearing people chew their food, he passed out from pain just

being forced into school cafeteria, but because asperger label, people get

idea that it is nothing, no. better off just being labeled autistic then, yes,

but because of good speech, aspergers he is labeled, no services, mine brother

fighting school system, and teachers, because mine nephew in constant pain and

school peoples say " Oh, it's only Asperger's " how will he be able to 'deal

with it' then. but what do you care, of what others are going through?

And of mine niece also asperger's but no real sensory problems, (except lack

of thereof) strong as an ox, one year younger, and much stronger than mine

nephew, and peoples tell her to be a lady yes, and tell mine nephew not to cry.

because of this stupid 'roles' that society forced upon peoples.

Mine nephew got bullied for being sensitive and gentle, yes, and it was mine

niece who fought the bullies off. They did naught wrong, no. but mine nephew

was told to be a man and not cry, and mine niece scolded for fighting and not

being ladylike, yes.  and both made to feel like what they did was wrong

because they not fit until stupid gender roles that means, nothing at all.

Be what you are, big man that you think you are, but protect me not, as I am

way bigger than you.

Juli ASD mother to Nicollette Rett Syndrome w/autism

[Guest guest]

--- gareth wrote:

>

> Its a part of who i am. I air on the side of

> manliness because thats

> who i am. If you think that makes me sad then you

> have a problem with

> the majority of men in this world.

>

----------Nah, I adore men, their penises, (and their

paychecks when they share). I just don't think they

have to wave either of them around to 'prove' their

'manhood'.

Honesty, integrity and compassion are the major

hallmarks of a 'man', to me.

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

--- gareth wrote:

> The lion is the rain when i give you my coat, the

> emty purse when i

> pay for your taxi. The lion is the door that is

> closed, and the man

> who barges past you.

----------That's called chivalry, and as practiced by

(some) men is not a bad thing at all, and agree it's

lacking a bit these days.

>

> If that seems sexist then im sorry for whover

> dislikes it, the

> interplay beetween man and women is a beautifull

> thing, and should

> not be " equalised " out of existance.

>

> ------I agree that that's not a bad thing, the

things I objected to were your definitions of men by

their penises and paychecks and your calling your

neighbor a nigger.

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

> > The lion is the rain when i give you my coat, the

> > emty purse when i

> > pay for your taxi. The lion is the door that is

> > closed, and the man

> > who barges past you.

>

> ----------That's called chivalry, and as practiced by

> (some) men is not a bad thing at all, and agree it's

> lacking a bit these days.

> >

> > If that seems sexist then im sorry for whover

> > dislikes it, the

> > interplay beetween man and women is a beautifull

> > thing, and should

> > not be " equalised " out of existance.

> >

> > ------I agree that that's not a bad thing, the

> things I objected to were your definitions of men by

> their penises and paychecks

I said wave your dick around as a symbol of expressing his manlyness,

and the fact that " its probably bigger than you think " referred

somewhat to his male side.

Youl find in general, mothers are happier with children and fathers

are happier at work. At least they would be happier than the average

woman would be. I did say that exceptions exist, and with a

population of many billions there will be many millions of

exceptions.

and your calling your

> neighbor a nigger.

>

Well he likes it.

> Nanne

Gareth

[Guest guest]

gareth wrote:

> Your name is far more arbitary than your biological makeup. People

> change their names and images far more than their sexes (and then

> sometimes it is because they have the wrong bits for their genes,

> through hormones)

Aha... but what is a biological makeup? Is that constrained to

genitalia? I don't think so! The place where gender identity, sexual

attraction (to whichever sex), etc., takes place is in the brain, not in

the genitals. I have seen some evidence that transsexuals (mainly men

that feel that they are women) have a certain brain structure that is

underdeveloped by male standards, but is normal by female standards. So

that person's biological makeup is of a woman where it matters most (the

brain, where thought, consciousness, identity take place), and of a man

where it matter less (the genitals, which are useful only for

reproduction).

I do not have a brain that is constructed like a typical male brain.

I'm glad of that. I feel more gender neutral than male. Most males

(and females, I suppose) seem to center their identity on their gender,

but I don't. I don't like having a gender, and I like it even less that

this society is hung up on gender to the extent that it is. I hear

about males stuffing socks down their pants to make their penii appear

larger, and I can't imagine wanting to do that. It's unpleasant enough

having to lug that shit around everywhere. I can't imagine wanting

one's genitals to be larger. It's just that much more to carry. I

would not do anything to make myself appear more male... that would

bring emphasis to a part of me that I do not care about. I would be

embarrassed to have a beard or to wear clothes that are definitively

male (I wear men's clothes, but they are rather unisex in style),

because I would feel like I am playing a role, and I have never been one

for pretending.

Like I said, I am not a man, and I never will be. And that is the way I

like it. The kinds of females to whom I am attracted are not typical

females either; they are strong individuals that do not like typical

males that do typical male things. The truth is, I find most typical

male behaviors repugnant, and I would not want to be like them one bit.

I hate that most men seem to think that women are here for them to hit

on. That's just the tip of the iceberg... I find most of the

stereotyped male behaviors to be fully unacceptable, and in no way do I

wish to be " a man " if that is what men are.

[Guest guest]

--- gareth wrote:

> I said wave your dick around as a symbol of

> expressing his manlyness,

> and the fact that " its probably bigger than you

> think " referred

> somewhat to his male side.

--------This is....so sad. Playing into the crap

about 'the bigger the dick the more manly the man'?

Statements like this contribute the insecurities of

the ..eh, smally-endowed, and to the overgrown egos of

the largely-endowed.

>

>

> and your calling your

> > neighbor a nigger.

> >

>

> Well he likes it.

>

> > Nanne

>

> Gareth

>

---------- Even if he said this, your enjoyment of

playing into the power of the disdain of the word is

downright rude. I've known lots of Africans who call

American blacks 'niggers', and it is as Fucked Up as

any klan mentality calling them that.

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

--- gareth wrote:

> >

>

> Well he likes it.

>

> >

> Gareth

>

>

----------Well, let me ask you this: Why do you

enjoy calling him this? What is the meaning of the

word for you? Give an example of how you use it in a

sentence.

I still assert that you're being rude, and want to

know what you get out of being rude to him.

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

Chemer wrote:

> In the UK you do have lots of options that I think the USA would do

> well to implement. After 6 months on Standard Unemployment you have

> to take a Scheme that is designed to get you back into work called

> " New Deal "

In the US, after six months of unemployment, your scheme is called

" homeless, " it seems. The benefits just end, and there is no scheme,

nothing else beyond that. The friend whom I am helping (who is living

with me until she can get a place of her own, or until my apartment

manager kicks me out for having her here) to get disability lost her

apartment when unemployment ran out.

> Another thing I firmly believe in is that College should be free to

> the masses not just the privaledged few. I do not understand the

> Governments in other countries that make people pay amazing fees to

> get their kids sent to College. Here Education is Free, but

> University you do have to pay for. However there are grants

> available and low rates of interest, some as low as 3%

I do not know much about state colleges, but when I attended university

in California (CSU; UC is more pricey), it cost very little. When I

started in 1990, it was a little over a thousand dollars a year for an

in-state resident; when I dropped out in 1995 or 1996, it had doubled,

but I was getting a full Pell grant (federal government financial aid

that need not be paid back) that covered all of my fees.

> I think its highly important that the Governments realise that

> Education is the key to getting people into work and paying Taxes.

> After all a little investment by the Government would create a lot of

> wealth in just a few years time. People who earn more pay more Tax

> that is a fact. I think its common sense therefore for a slight

> increase in the working Mans TAX to pay for Students to get Educated

> from Poor Families.

I would have no problem with that.

> I have never understood the attitude of the Government in the USA. I

> am not bashing the USA and I have ancestors and friends who live

> there. What I am saying is that people need to eat and they need to

> get back on their feet. But thee doesn't seem to be a safety net

> that stops them having to go on the streets.

The US is kind of a mixed bag in terms of social programs. From what my

friends in the UK, Australia, and Canada say, the benefits I get are

quite good indeed. The US is not usually considered a " welfare state, "

but from the disability standpoint, its benefits are some of the best in

the western world.

The caveat to that is that the US makes it unreasonably hard to get the

benefits. Many, many people that are disabled apply for Social Security

(disability or SSI, depending on their work history), and are turned

down. While you are waiting the months and months for the first

decision, the reconsideration, the trial before an admin judge, the

appeal before the circuit court, you get nothing from the federal

government. It can take years for a disabled person to get benefits--

or it can take two months, as was the case with me. I got my first

payment two months after I applied. The disability examiners regularly

ignore evidence, and the rules they must follow are not designed to be

helpful to the applicants.

This country has a conservative streak in it, and the conservatives do

not believe in much social welfare. They think that the disabled should

just go find a job they can do... they use examples of people in

wheelchairs and mental impairments working to support their claim. They

say that any person should be able to find some kind of work in six

months, so there is never any need to extend jobless benefits beyond

that. And while there are a lot of people that think otherwise, there

are enough that want to slash or eliminate social spending to make it a

very " iffy " proposition indeed.

I used to be a conservative. I still have a number of conservative

views, but when I took the test at politicalcompass.org, I came out as

one click to the left of center. No one was more surprised by that than

me. I used to be hardcore right wing, which was easy as long as I did

not have to see the other side (I was in college at the time).

Conservatives may deny it, and some may deny it truthfully, but in my

experience, most conservatives don't have much compassion for people

less fortunate than themselves. In fact, they don't really believe in

people being less fortunate than themselves. They think that all people

have the same opportunity, and if they don't make the best of it and

become successful, they deserve what they get. The poor, in their view,

are not just poor; they are inferior because they have made decisions

that result in their poverty. Of course, many of them have money only

because their parents have money, but to them, that means that they are

worthy, more so than people like me that come from a line of poor people.

I have talked to a lot of conservatives in my College Republican club

back then, and one thing that stood out was that they did not care if

the less fortunate, disenfranchised, et cetera, lived or died. They

would rather ignore them and have them wither away. At the time, I

agreed with them... though I came from a poor family, I was in college;

I was going to be one of the Elites like they were. That was what I

believed at the time, anyway. I've never been long on empathy, for

obvious reasons; what was their excuse?

> Here you get housing benefit and council tax benefit. That means

> that you rent is paid if you are unemployed. It is paid fully by the

> Council, but if you are private they will only pay 400 dollars a

> month towards you rent.

Public housing here is only for the poorest of the poor, and it is

generally of very bad quality and plagued by gangs and drugs. Even the

poor people like me that get section 8 live in private housing that is

subsidized. Section 8, combined with SSI, is very good; it is possible

to live this way... but like SSI, section 8 is generally not easy to

get. The waiting lists are excruciatingly long, and until you are

finished waiting it out, you are left to struggle on your own, sometimes

for a year or more, with not one penny of help from anyone. That is why

people like my friend become homeless when they become disabled.

> We do not get food stamps. We do however get money that is deposited

> into the bank. My money is not means tested. Therefore whatever

> earns or saves doesn't effect my Money. I get 140 dollars a

> week and picks up 400 dollars a week.

SSI is means tested and reduced 1:1 for every dollar earned. If I get

$550 a month in SSI, and I get a part time job making $300 a month, SSI

drops instantly to $250 a month. There is no incentive for me to work

part time. While I cannot (based on my past futile attempts) support

myself, I can do a part time job, and I would if they would let me have

some of the money I make. As it is, there is no incentive at all for

someone on SSI to do that-- and often, a part time job like that could

be a gateway to a full time job that negates the need for SSI at all.

The SSI laws are terribly short-sighted.

> So I suppose in the end you probably get the same.

It seems so... but the difference is that in the US, it can take months

or years before you get your benefits, and it is up to you to figure out

how to survive until you get your benefits. For people that are

disabled, that is next to impossible. As my mom's boyfriend (who is on

disability, and who relied on my mother to get through the disability

system as my friend is relying upon me... I guess that makes her a man,

eh?) said, it's not their blood on the streets. At the end of the day,

the disability examiners, the social security case workers, the

legislators that make the laws governing social security... they all go

home to a house full of food and with everything they need in it, so

they really don't care to make it easier.

> But there doesn't appear to be schemes to get people back into

> Education and that is not a problem for the short term. But if it

> carries on in America then their will be a Brain Drain and that means

> that less and less people will be able to fill the vital jobs that

> are needed. Such as Forensic Medicine. Networking and IT Related

> Jobs. Doctors and Nurses etc.

It is far less than ideal here, for sure.

[Guest guest]

> > >

> >

> > Well he likes it.

> >

> > >

> > Gareth

> >

> >

> ----------Well, let me ask you this: Why do you

> enjoy calling him this? What is the meaning of the

> word for you? Give an example of how you use it in a

> sentence.

>

> I still assert that you're being rude, and want to

> know what you get out of being rude to him.

>

> Nanne

Generally i just call him B, cause his name is blaze. calling him a

nigger comes up in discussion with him, such as when we are

discussing identities, or with a smile on my face.

We made a joke yesterday. he's selling the house.

he said, " be sure and tell them there was a black man living here "

I said " sure, i just hope it doesnt drop the price too much "

We all fell about laughing, and his wife, (white if it matters)

said " nice one, you tell him "

see, its all in the meaning behind it. I patently am not racist, in

so much as i think less of blacks than whites. And we know something

of wherever each other is coming from. And he's coming from africa,

and he is ever so proud to be from there.

its all in the way you tell it,

Gareth.

[Guest guest]

gareth wrote:

> > I'm going to guess -- I think it's a derivative of the term " super-

> >

> crip "

> > which is somebody with a disability that feels he is inferior

> to 'normal'

> > people and thus dedicates himself to tackling all kinds of

> obstacles to

> > feel like people respect him for his amazing deeds.

>

> So, that would be like then, no?

No, not even close. I don't work, I don't try to overcome my

" disability, " I don't overcome all sorts of obstacles. I spend most of

my time home alone because of the obstacles, and because that is what I

like. I am the polar opposite of a " super crip. "

[Guest guest]

> Generally i just call him B, cause his name is

> blaze. calling him a

> nigger comes up in discussion with him, such as when

> we are

> discussing identities, or with a smile on my face.

>

> We made a joke yesterday. he's selling the house.

> he said, " be sure and tell them there was a black

> man living here "

>

> I said " sure, i just hope it doesnt drop the price

> too much "

>

> We all fell about laughing, and his wife, (white if

> it matters)

> said " nice one, you tell him "

>

> see, its all in the meaning behind it. I patently am

> not racist, in

> so much as i think less of blacks than whites. And

> we know something

> of wherever each other is coming from. And he's

> coming from africa,

> and he is ever so proud to be from there.

>

> its all in the way you tell it,

>

> Gareth.

>

------------Well you didn't 'tell it' when you first

wrote it, you wrote in a way (that sounded like

bragging) that left a lot of questions.

I still hate the word, and it has nothing to

do with PC. If you ever called my son that, I would

punch your lights out.

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

Cerulean danced around singing:

>I still hate the word, and it has nothing to

>do with PC. If you ever called my son that, I would

>punch your lights out.

If he simply came over into one of our more inner-city neighborhoods and

called somebody a n****** then I am pretty sure he'd learn to never do it

again. If he survived, that is. It's a bit questionable whether he would.

DeGraf ~*~ Proud HFA age 26

blog: http://sonic.net/mustang/moggy

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/9/2003 4:21:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

jane@... writes:

> wrote:

> >I do not have a brain that is constructed like a typical male brain.

> >I'm glad of that. I feel more gender neutral than male.

>

> I feel more gender neutral than female, even though I'm

> completely " normal " in biological sex characteristics.

> Like you, , it's the brain that makes the difference.

>

>

Agreed, myself as well, yes.

Juli ASD mother to Nicollette Rett Syndrome w/autism

[Guest guest]

< Re: Multi-rant

>

>

> So, on a logical level, why do you assume that females *can't*

provide

> space love or money? (How does one provide space in the first

place? What

> is " space " ?)

Read the apple story. i dont expect you to roll over and accept what

im saying, but its true. Lesbian relationships are characterised by

intensity and ultimate communication. Man woman relationships are

characterised by the women complaining about the man not

communicating. This is called space. >>

Well this settles it. I am a dickless man named Kassiane andra, and

I am dating a dicked woman named . Wow our parents were

screwed up, huh? In *my* male-female relationship, it is not I,

who desires more communication.

women can provide money,

sometimes they do. This is not what the average women is cut out for,

however. Women get broody a lot more than men. Some men want famlies

more than their partner- however, on average, men want " stuff "

(apples, shall we say) women want kids. Its a biological fact. Women

do give enormous amounts of love. In my haste, in the previous post,

perhaps i made it sound like they dont. i was wrong.>>

This is SO stereotyping. My (MALE! Ragingly MALE!) cousin M. is the

moodiest pereson I have ever met. I dont want kids. My boyfriend does.

And Ive been accused of being cold and heartless by some, distant,

chilly, or frigid by others. And Im female

Well, they should be for me. I want a woman to be a woman. so i can

be a man. Like the ying and yang symbols.>>

It sounds like what you want is for someone to be submissive, just my

take on things.

The feircely independant Kassiane

..

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[Guest guest]

Hi Gareth,

Jesus himself would be called a bum today as he didn't have a job at

all.

Steve

[Guest guest]

> Hi Gareth,

>

> Jesus himself would be called a bum today as he didn't have a job

at

> all.

>

> Steve

yes he would. at least untill he showed what else he could do.

Gareth

[Guest guest]

Clay your belts too tight its cutting off oxygen to the singular

brain cell so look after it.

Steve