Re: Multi-rant

[Guest guest]

--- szo701@... wrote:

> Cerulean Wrote:

> >Anyone in modern society squawking about being

> >oppressed by the patriarchy should try go living in

> >some tribal society with no running water and no

> >access to birth control for awhile.

>

> Your expirence is different than mine. While in no

> way would I want to live with an African tribe, to

> me that doesn't relate to patriarchal oppression.

>

> When 75% of all women will be sexually harrassed at

> work at some point in thier lifetime,

---------There are more laws on this now than were

even imagined 15 years ago....

> When a woman is raped, everyone thinks it's her

> fault (look at the stupid media and the moranic Kobe

> issue), and the rape conviction is a mere 2%,

-------Crimes are crimes and the criminals should be

punished, yet. However when it gets into areas such

as you mentioned (), nobody knows the truth of

what happened until all facts come out.

> When 25% of all women are raped, 1 in 5 molested,

> When the number one reason for the death of pregnant

> women is homocide by her partner,

-------The seriousness of these as being crimes has

changed/improved in the last 20 years....

> When women do 2/3 of the work and get 1/3 the pay,

> world wide, and in this country get 30% less than a

> man does for the same job,

------improvements have occurred in these areas also,

although of course not everywhere...

> When I am not allowed to persue certain careers that

> I can do and love and I am shunned, abused,

> physically threatened and sexually harrassed out of

> them for no reason other than the fact that I'm a

> woman,

-------what ones?

>

> I'd say WE ARE oppressed by the patriarch. Much

> less so than before, but it's still there, no doubt.

> I have lived it everyday of my life.

-------I'm sorry, I no longer see a 'vast conspiracy'

of 'the patriarch'. I did in the late 70's, but not

now. I'm old enough to have witnessed vast

changes....still more that need to be made, for sure,

but very different from when I was a child. Also, I

was fortunate enough to have attended courses in one

of the first Women's Studies programs in the country,

founded by Dr. Gloria Kaufman at Indiana University

South Bend.

>

> >historical feminism I'm proud of, but not the

> >silliness of the last fifteen years

>

> I'm assuming you're talking about " girl power " where

> women objectify themselves, strip almost naked and

> then say they are powerful. That IS silly.

>

> Jeanette

>

---------No. I'm talking about 'too far and bordering

into ridiculousness', such as the kindegarten boy in

Michigan who got suspended from school for having

kissed a girl on top of her head and 'sexually

harassing her'.

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

>

> >Quite! but do you see where she came from originally- that if it

> >wernt for men, women and men would be the same- thats the starting

> >point for femenism, that underlying beleif of sameness. oh, im

sure

> >now youve pointed it out she will have all sorts of rational to

> >correct her slip of the tongue, but still now the secret is out.

>

> >She said that if men didnt pass down rules onto men, men are

> >terrified they would be just like women!

>

> You actually really prove my point by your misunderstanding.

You've already talked about how " masculinity has a right to exist " .

Isn't that what the illusion is all about?

Its not a misunderstanding. You said something like " men pass on

rules down to boys, giveing them tests to see if they pass. they do

this because they are terrified about being women "

>

> Men were terrified that they would be unimportant and would cease

to exist, since they could not give life and hunting skills were less

important due to agriculture. They were terrified of being given the

status of a woman, and falling out of the club because the only

alternative is slavery and servitude. Possibly even death, long

ago. The club is all about creating the illusion that men are

superior, and have no attributes that women exibit during child

rearing- being half human. They are suppose to be unemotional,

destructive, callous, and especially in complete control of all that

is female.

Thats the reason you are such a femenist, because that is what you

beleive is what men stand for. You should try listning to men, (what

they say, not what you think they say) if you want to know who they

are.

>

> The sort of role you are insisting a woman should have is

insulting - submissive and subserviant.

Its not submissive or subserviant! humans would no longer exist

without women!

> It is clear from your posts that you are misogynistic, whether you

>are sexually attracted to fat women or not, you still want to be

>the " man " in control of everything, owning your mate, controling

>your mate. It is hateful. Racist slurrs are hateful and degrading

>as well.

How many times! it w-a-s-n-t a racist slur. Thats the problem with

people like you, because you think something, you assume that is how

other people think, because you consider your views to

be " proggressive " and " liberal " you have the " excuse " of looking down

sorrily on anybody in the target groups who doesnt agree with you.

Its people like you who banned hot cross buns in a county in england,

because they found them offensive to muslims.

after the event, a muslim leader said he wished they would leave us

alone.

Its people like you, who are so up themselves and yet disguise your

selves as progressive, that are destroying this world.

>

> >thats the difference, that brand of femenism (ie militant) is all

> >about changing equality from its original meaning, into saying

that

> >men and women are the same.

>

> >in other words, it attempts to equalize people out of existance

>

> Here we go again. Your patriarchal fear is showing! Gareth, no

one ever said you don't have the right to exist. You aren't Israel,

here.

In your world, i have the right to exist as a pretend female. In my

world, i have the right to exist as a man. Thats the difference. Your

the kind of woman that would have a go at a man for holding a door

open for you. Your the kind of woman that the term ice-queen was

invented for.

>

> Militant Feminism is about radical social change that many, mostly

men, are uncomfortable with. It's not about " changing equality " it

is about affirming equality- we are all human. And we are all

individuals, but that doesn't change the common denominator of

humanity. And humans, male and female, have a full range of

emotions, etc. that cannot be defined by gender roles. Men can be

nurturing, caring, creative, tender- and have those feelings to one

extent or the other.

Absolutely. so stop meddeling with it and let us get on with it! you

dont have to change anything for this to be so, emotions are the

common denominator. Only thing is, women show them in different ways

then men, then femenists like you decry us with shouts

of " unemotional! " when they dont like our way. You want us to pander

to women because you dont feel the need to pander to us. Good, dont.

Be yourself and stop whinging that you know what being a man is all

about. Your view will inevitably be wrong.

>

> Social role changes make people uncomfortable, especially NT's who

have bought into strictly defined roles

>

> >masculism is about acnowledging God given differences, and saying

> >that they are all groovy differences, and lets stop fighting

against

> >them.

>

> First off, I don't believe in god.

>

> Masculism is about fear and superiority, and LIMITING males into

ONE role they MUST accept. Just by reading the posts you can see that

aspies, unbounded by limiting social conventions, are androgenous,

having both male and female interests,etc. But we are all unique.

in a population of billions, there will be a few million exceptions.

infact, gender steryotypes will be largely incorrect, depending on

their specific-ness. And yet they point to a series of facts, brought

about by each individual soul in this world.

Of course frank has the right to wish away his penis, though he

sounds like a man who is frightened of women to me. but if he is

truly happy classed as neither one or the other, then thats fine.

FACT most men feel like men

FACT most women feel like women

MY OPINION Femenists are trying to create another gender, with them

as the ruling class, as they know all the rules to their world when

one has gained entry. Of course, those below are women who havnt

accepted all the top dogs views, and men, with the most manly at the

bottom, and the most effeminate like lap dogs to the queens.

ugh.

Of course we are all unique, on a scale.

>

> Feminism is not about changing anyone or insisting all men HAVE to

be androgeous. It just that if given the choice, most people are.

this is wrong

Feminisim is about freedom to be who you are without fear of

judgement.

Mo, thats equality, and it implicitly implies that differences are

there. (so your being a hypocrite when you say that men only have

their opinions because they are afraid to be women, and that their

state of rest IS women)

If a male happens to lean to traditional manliness, so be it. But

if he claims that he is totally uncaring, unemotional, Mr. tough guy

ALL the time, that would be unrealistic. Sure he can be a

strong " tough " guy and have traditional male interests, but I doubt

he would be totally in control all the time, uncaring, unattached and

unemotional.

Whats your point (of course i meet people like that, and dislike them

too)

>

> If a woman is more " feminine " so what? I hope she doesn't insist

on being overly emotional to the point where it stops all

functioning, or declare she is helpless and nothing without a man.

so do i.

>

> The " typical " male-macho behaviors that are not male at all are

what is appalling- deception, manipulation

Ahem, those are steryotypically female traights. A boy may say to

another " your a prick " a girl will tell her freinds " she's a bitch "

and then smile sweetly when ieye contact is made. These are well

documented facts, which you ignore because your argument will not

stand up to them.

and control of one's mate, violence, objectification and degredation

of women, cheating on women (males cheat 80%, women 50% of the time),

valuing money and power above all else, being totally detached from

one's emotions, and unattached to those around you to the point where

you don't give a damn about anyone, etc.

This is the pit that a fallen man will go into. Of course, without

strong male role models or fathers, ie emasculated men all around,

more and more men will go this way, as they will internalise

themselves, feeling ashamed to be manly. And frankly, thats the fault

of femenists like you and men who dont say bollocks to them.

>

> >By mean average there are many many wholesome differences beetween

the sexes.

>

> Why are you so insistant that the sexes are totally different? Why

are you so uncomfortable with the idea that they are not so different?

Why are you so insistant that they are the same?

>

> The virtues of manliness need to be pointed out in this effeminate

arena now more than ever.

>

> Sounds like a misogynistic comment to me. The last thing we need

is some " man " running around insisting and forcing men to

be " manly " . Sounds like you are very uncomfortable with

the " femininity " around you, but that's no surprise to me and proves

my point.

im not forcing men to be manly, and this is an effeminate arena. I

dont mind femeninity, i like women. a lot. but not people like you,

who represent the worst possibilities of men focused in a femenist

attitude. Im much more middle of the road than you- that patriarchy

post was frankly laughable and men hating.

>

> Aspergic men like myself have been bullied to high heaven

>

> See? How could you possibly feel bullied?! If you were not SO

uneasy with the feminine, you could just be yourself. If

the " bullying " you are refering to is people getting annoyed and

angered with racial slurrs, arrogance and sexist, misogynistic

comments, that has nothing to do with being male at all. That is an

attitude change that people are hoping you will try for thier sake

and yours.

i was bullied for my body movements, losing my words. i was bullied

by being a nothing in school society, for being spotty. I was also

bullied, or at least challenged, for being the biggest boy in school.

Other boys wanted to beat me to prove they were the biggest and best.

And once again, it wasnt a racial slur. He's happy with who he is.

how dare you assume otherwise. You seem to be content making others

minds up for them, and teling them what they do and dont feel to

substantiate your argument. Your going against the grain of nature.

He is black, and its far from being a skin colour in his case. Im a

man, and its far from having a dick. Concepts you will not - ever -

grasp.

>

> one not to be afraid of ones manliness, for fear of one immitating

the bullies or feeling a

> failure.

>

> What are you talking about? Fear of one's " manliness " ? How

ridiculous is that? No one said you can't have traditional male

interests (some of us do) etc. But if " manliness " is about the

controling, partiarchal limited role YOU insist on imposing upon

others ( like the rude and disgusting comment you made to about

being a man and waving his parts around), you are under the

patriarchal illusion.

it was rude because i dont like him. I dont like his smug attitude or

his patronising words, And i dont like the way he hates his penis.

i am not under any illusion apart from my parents, and even that i am

fighting against. Oh, and my mum is a tomboy if every their was one.

one man attacked her once. he went away bleeding. Another boy

attacked her on the way home from school. Later on that night, his

parents told her dad his nose was brocken. She cut her knee right

open playing cowboys and indians, with the yellow bit in the middle

coming through. She also wont stand for any swearing, and is a

powerfull woman.

So if anything i have been brought up with strong women, and yet your

views are not strong. they are there to make you feel good, and

stronger than the rest.

Gareth.

[Guest guest]

> > >

> > > -----------Well, it can be said till one is blue

> > in

> > > the face, the differences are there, but we don't

> > have

> > > to be ruled by them any longer.

> >

> > dont get you

>

> ------------biologically (nature) male and female (and

> then exceptions of course)

> mind and imagination don't have to be ruled by

> gender, plus, women have freedom to make choices that

> they didn't have 100 years ago, and in some areas, 50

> years ago.

It stands to anycommon reason that a male brain (which is a

documented fact) will tend to grow in a male body (and vis-a-vis)

Yes, women do have more choices now, and rightly so.

> >

> > Admittedly masculism represents the normal view,

> but

> > we are the brave

> > few that sre speaking the blatantly obvious. Thats

> > as good a term as

> > any for us.

>

> -----------That still puts 'male' above 'female'.

> What is wrong with 'human'?

You will note that femenism has been around a long time, whereas the

mens movement has only come about recently, as a direct antidote to

their incessant sillyness.

To be human is wonderfull, and without being flippant at all Nanne, i

am growing spiritually all the time, which includes my male side, as

that is what i am.

> >

> > >

> > Thats how you interpret what i say because it

> suits

> > you. You have

> > said that, not me. A man's role is to provide in my

> > opinion. If you

> > associate providing with penises and paychecks,

> > thats up to you.

> >

> ---------Eh, I wasn't the one who suggested to

> someone here he take out his penis and wave it

> around....

> And 'provide' = 'paychecks'.

Yes, thats true. i did say that about . one i dont like him, and

two his views about hating his male side sicken me. I was seeing if

there was any man left in him at all. it appears not.

Men provide space (yes yes, steryotypically) lesbian relationships

are intent meetings of words, communication, bitchyness, closeness, a

positive whilwind of communication (yes yes, steryotypically, though

this holds true nearly all the time) whereas your average hetrosexual

woman will complain about the man not communicating enough, instead

of the lesbian too much.

The man gives space.

Its not only money, but on average women feel more complete at home

like the man feels complete in the workplace. This is life.

Gareth

and masculinity is only needed to point out the regular doses of crap

fed by femenists, our agenda is to be ourselves because men are good.

[Guest guest]

gareth wrote:

> Yes, thats true. i did say that about . one i dont like him, and

> two his views about hating his male side sicken me. I was seeing if

> there was any man left in him at all. it appears not.

Yeah, of course you don't like me Gareth... After I correctly analyzed

your relationship with Juli, who deserves much better than what we have

seen of you here, I would not expect you to. I don't like you much

either, and your views not only sicken me, but just about everyone on

this list. And I am just waiting for you to step over the line so I can

be rid of you. How's that?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/10/2003 3:48:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

lgainor@... writes:

> “Hothead†males are usually banished,

> because they can cause the death of the whole tribe with one rash

> action.

>

LOL, I like this, yes.

Juli ASD mother to Nicollette Rett Syndrome w/autism

[Guest guest]

>

>

> > Yes, thats true. i did say that about . one i dont like

him, and

> > two his views about hating his male side sicken me. I was seeing

if

> > there was any man left in him at all. it appears not.

>

> Yeah, of course you don't like me Gareth... After I correctly

analyzed

> your relationship with Juli, who deserves much better than what we

have

> seen of you here, I would not expect you to. I don't like you much

> either, and your views not only sicken me, but just about everyone

on

> this list. And I am just waiting for you to step over the line so

I can

> be rid of you. How's that?

>

>

you didnt correctly analize our relationship, neither did she or me.

thats what caused the problem- miscommunication. it appears to be a

feature of our condition.

you did point out the part where your smugness really pissed me off

though, yes. You analized our relationship from one post, and yet

have never ever met your long term partner.

We got on better than i had ever got on with anybody, ever, when we

were only on the phone and online. Your one girlfreind didnt like you

by your own admission, and yet you see fit to guide Juli's hand in

our (ex) relationship. No doubt, you e-mailed her with your views

when she got back, and our relationship has steadily declined to the

point where she no longer takes my e-mails.

Now i had a choice, i could censor my opinions so as not to risk

hurting Juli, or speak my mind. Half opinions will no doubt pass

online when nothing is at stake, but out in the real world, they

dont. Im showing a bit of the real world on this list, my opinions

are how i feel about things out in the real world, not the sanitised

surroundings of the net.

You can kick me out of your small pond, but i will still be me. one

could not say the same for you.

Gareth

[Guest guest]

Nanne wrote:

> ---------No. I'm talking about 'too far and bordering

>into ridiculousness', such as the kindegarten boy in

>Michigan who got suspended from school for having

>kissed a girl on top of her head and 'sexually

>harassing her'.

That kind of " zero tolerance " nonsense is not

feminism, IMO.

Jane

[Guest guest]

--- gareth wrote:

>

> It stands to anycommon reason that a male brain

> (which is a

> documented fact) will tend to grow in a male body

> (and vis-a-vis)

> Yes, women do have more choices now, and rightly so.

>

> -------- Let me re-phrase this; thinking,

imagination, creativity, are not necessarily bound by

sex/gender. In my deepest aspects of myself, brain,

spirit, I am a 'being', my soul has no sex....I've

felt this ever since I was a little girl. And I like

this.

Physically speaking, I'm 'female', and

alternatingly like and dislike physical aspects of

being female. Physically, I love sexuality and the

ability to have been able to nurse my child;

physically I hate natures' monthly oppression

reminding me I have a body for breeding.

I dislike stereotypical females and relate more

with strong women who are individuals. When I get to

know someone, I want to know who they are in their

'being', not in who they are in their gender roles.

That being said, it would have been nice, during

pregnancy and early child-rearing, to have known

support from the father, but that wasn't to be.

>

> >

> > -----------That still puts 'male' above 'female'.

> > What is wrong with 'human'?

>

> You will note that femenism has been around a long

> time, whereas the

> mens movement has only come about recently, as a

> direct antidote to

> their incessant sillyness.

-----------The 'men's movement' has been around for as

long as all time....heh.... feminism was a necessary

need for correcting injustices..... next in line

should be 'humanism' or 'being-ness', or something...

maybe Aspergers should be it, heh.

>

> To be human is wonderfull, and without being

> flippant at all Nanne, i

> am growing spiritually all the time, which includes

> my male side, as

> that is what i am.

>

----------Well this is all groovy and wonderful, and

perhaps you can embrace this without the need to

lambast the necessity of the positive contributions of

the women's movement?

> > > Thats how you interpret what i say because it

> Yes, thats true. i did say that about . one i

> dont like him, and

> two his views about hating his male side sicken me.

> I was seeing if

> there was any man left in him at all. it appears

> not.

------------I wish our culture placed stronger

emphasis on our sexuality as being positive aspects of

our life force and creativity, rather than focus on

dingling spots of genital pleasure. In this regard,

it could be helpful and more positive, to those who

dislike their genital. It would be more helpful for

you to not hate or be sickened, but to attempt to

encourage.

>

> Men provide space (yes yes, steryotypically) lesbian

> relationships

> are intent meetings of words, communication,

> bitchyness, closeness, a

> positive whilwind of communication (yes yes,

> steryotypically, though

> this holds true nearly all the time) whereas your

> average hetrosexual

> woman will complain about the man not communicating

> enough, instead

> of the lesbian too much.

>

> The man gives space.

>

> Its not only money, but on average women feel more

> complete at home

> like the man feels complete in the workplace. This

> is life.

---------I am more complete at home not because of

being female, but because my AS being can't handle the

rush clatter and noise of the everyday workworld.

Long uninterrupted doses of quiet are necessary to my

Being, not to my Womanhood.

>

> Gareth

>

> and masculinity is only needed to point out the

> regular doses of crap

> fed by femenists, our agenda is to be ourselves

> because men are good.

---------No. Not masculinity; intelligence. Go read

Camille Paglia.

Men are neither good nor bad, just as women;

individuals are, depending on character.

A lifetime of abuse technically *should* make me

a hater of men, but I'm not; I have a son to raise.

Nanne

>

>

>

>

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

--- Klein wrote:

> gareth wrote:

>

>

> > Yes, thats true. i did say that about . one

> i dont like him, and

> > two his views about hating his male side sicken

> me. I was seeing if

> > there was any man left in him at all. it appears

> not.

>

> Yeah, of course you don't like me Gareth... After I

> correctly analyzed

> your relationship with Juli, who deserves much

> better than what we have

> seen of you here, I would not expect you to. I

> don't like you much

> either, and your views not only sicken me, but just

> about everyone on

> this list. And I am just waiting for you to step

> over the line so I can

> be rid of you. How's that?

>

>

>

>

-----------Oh, I hope you don't.... for whatever it's

worth, at least the list has been lively without

flames being torched, eh?

heh,

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

gareth wrote:

> you did point out the part where your smugness really pissed me off

> though, yes. You analized our relationship from one post, and yet

> have never ever met your long term partner.

So?

> We got on better than i had ever got on with anybody, ever, when we

> were only on the phone and online. Your one girlfreind didnt like you

> by your own admission,

She didn't like that I treated her like an equal. That does not mean

she did not like me.

> and yet you see fit to guide Juli's hand in

> our (ex) relationship.

You posted (to Advo if I recall), Gareth. You made that choice, not I.

When you post to a discussion list, you open the topic for discussion.

You posted your piece, and I formed opinions, and described them in my

post, based on that. Then Juli posted her piece, and what I thought was

confirmed. And now that I have seen more of you in this thread, I know

I was right about you. You're not so clever or unique that I have not

seen your type before... really, people like you are a dime a dozen, and

I can spot you from a mile away.

Grow up and stop blaming others for this-- if anyone is responsible for

guiding Juli's hand, it is you. You are being insulting to her by

implying that the only reason she is doing anything, like rejecting you,

is because someone else is leading her into it. She is a real person

and has the ability to form conclusions on her own.

> No doubt, you e-mailed her with your views

> when she got back, and our relationship has steadily declined to the

> point where she no longer takes my e-mails.

Nope. Her actions are all based on you and your behavior, buddy. If

you want to blame someone for her rejecting you, go look in a mirror.

Everything I said to anyone on the topic of you and her was on this list.

> Now i had a choice, i could censor my opinions so as not to risk

> hurting Juli, or speak my mind.

And you did speak your mind, and that is when I knew what kind of person

you were. I based my conclusions on what you wrote.

> Half opinions will no doubt pass

> online when nothing is at stake, but out in the real world, they

> dont. Im showing a bit of the real world on this list, my opinions

> are how i feel about things out in the real world, not the sanitised

> surroundings of the net.

We all do that. You don't have a monopoly on speaking from your

perspective.

> You can kick me out of your small pond, but i will still be me. one

> could not say the same for you.

LOL... I won't be me? Who will I be?

I won't kick you out unless you step over the line like anyone else. So

far, you have not done that, but people like you usually do at some point.

[Guest guest]

--- Jane Meyerding wrote:

> Nanne wrote:

> > ---------No. I'm talking about 'too far and

> bordering

> >into ridiculousness', such as the kindegarten boy

> in

> >Michigan who got suspended from school for having

> >kissed a girl on top of her head and 'sexually

> >harassing her'.

>

> That kind of " zero tolerance " nonsense is not

> feminism, IMO.

>

> Jane

>

--------- I agree, Jane, but there *are* feminists

who do support that.

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

I wrote:

> Everything I said to anyone on the topic of you and her was

> on this list.

Correction: It was, if I recall, the other list, AutAdvo, not this one.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/10/2003 5:02:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

amanda@... writes:

> I've never been able to figure out if she doesn't *understand* her own

> mortality or if she just doesn't *care*. She's done really scary stuff

> around machinery and tools for a long time, and usually the main

> reaction she has is amusement if anything. (No, she's not a sociopath,

> even if her dad probably is. She's just odd in some ways.)

>

>

she sounds like fun, yes.

Juli ASD mother to Nicollette Rett Syndrome w/autism

[Guest guest]

>

> > you did point out the part where your smugness really pissed me

off

> > though, yes. You analized our relationship from one post, and yet

> > have never ever met your long term partner.

>

> So?

use your brain. (here's a clue- it links in to what i said below)

>

> > We got on better than i had ever got on with anybody, ever, when

we

> > were only on the phone and online. Your one girlfreind didnt

like you

> > by your own admission,

>

> She didn't like that I treated her like an equal. That does not

mean

> she did not like me.

Your version of equality comes across as patronising sometimes. I

would assume that this is normally the case, your type are up your

ass as they have nowhere else to go. Ive seen that type before. -

point being, you havnt a clue when it comes to relationships. a girl

asked you out three times and you didnt see it as a come on? hello?

you've only been out with one girl- a girl that has a history of

accepting second best (her course change was an example of that).

A girl that doesnt like what you say you stand for. And you are

certain there was no ulteriour motive for her going out with you.

It may be true, but it does illustrate the fact that you are no

relationship guru. (just like me, but younger :-))

And you brought up juli, i replied to that. i would like to keep it

as such. will you please respect my wishes ?

(infact i really really wish i hadnt responded to your post

mentioning her at all, but i fell for that one hook, line and sinker)

>

> Grow up and stop blaming others for this-- if anyone is responsible

for

> guiding Juli's hand, it is you.

This is true of course, but still leaves my feelings for you

unchanged, for reasons i will not go into at all, as this involves

Juli, and like i say i wish to not talk about her on lists anymore, i

think i made that awfull mistake already.

You are being insulting to her by

> implying that the only reason she is doing anything, like rejecting

you,

> is because someone else is leading her into it. She is a real

person

> and has the ability to form conclusions on her own.

Yes she does, of course, and i regret talking about her very much.

Gareth

[Guest guest]

When I was in England, I was amazed at how they try to make sure

everyone has a roof over their heads, and food on the table. I

was going to ask you if they had implemented the pay for mothers

who stay at home, but you answered that already. They had been

talking about it when we were there in ’91-’93.

I agree with the education thing. The problem here is that our

children come out of regular school completely unprepared to go

to college. When my son was going into kindergarten they said

they wouldn’t allow him in school because he had just turned 5

years old two weeks before the school year started; they said he

was still too young. I laughed at them and told them that if we

were still in England that my son would be going into second

grade, and that they were going to let him in school or I was

going to make a hell of a noise.

Hubby has the same problem that you have when it come to his

relatives. They were all raised in the 1950’s mindset that the

man worked to support the family and the woman stayed home and

everybody would be happy if you lived your life the same way.

They always ask him if he has any job prospects. They just don’t

get it. His brother tells him that he’s not a man because he

stays home with the children, and his mother tells him he can’t

be any good at staying home with the children because he’s a man.

They really piss me off.

Louis

From: Chemer

>Thank you! My mother supported our family; my father didn’t

work.

>All four of my sisters support their families; their husbands

>stay at home with the kids. I support my family (when I can find

>a job!), and my husband stays home with the kids. My brother

>works, cleans the house, cooks, takes care of getting the kids

to

>school and his wife shops.

>

Same here I myself due to Gail and others in the past had to go

on

Stress Related Illness. I am only just recovering and luckily

Mom

has not had any sign of the Cancer Returning, touch wood.

It appears to me that I find it increasingly harder to go to

parties

run by my family and talk to them. I feel I need to mention

about

going back to work etc. Yes you are right. My cousin Vikki is

supported by her boyfriend Matt, but nobody cares about that.

Yet

everyone looks at me cause supports me.

Like your Brother I do the cooking and cleaning and sadly we have

no

kids, becaue of gyno problems with . But we are happy and

content.

In the UK you do have lots of options that I think the USA would

do

well to implement. After 6 months on Standard Unemployment you

have

to take a Scheme that is designed to get you back into work

called

" New Deal " this Scheme will find you work and not only that for

the

first 6 months pay you 60 pounds or 120 dollars a week ontop of

your

wages to get you back on your feet with rent payments etc. As

the

Government realises that people find it hard to come off benefits

with certain debts.

Another thing I firmly believe in is that College should be free

to

the masses not just the privaledged few. I do not understand the

Governments in other countries that make people pay amazing fees

to

get their kids sent to College. Here Education is Free, but

University you do have to pay for. However there are grants

available and low rates of interest, some as low as 3%

I think its highly important that the Governments realise that

Education is the key to getting people into work and paying

Taxes.

After all a little investment by the Government would create a

lot of

wealth in just a few years time. People who earn more pay more

Tax

that is a fact. I think its common sense therefore for a slight

increase in the working Mans TAX to pay for Students to get

Educated

from Poor Families.

I have never understood the attitude of the Government in the

USA. I

am not bashing the USA and I have ancestors and friends who live

there. What I am saying is that people need to eat and they need

to

get back on their feet. But thee doesn't seem to be a safety net

that stops them having to go on the streets.

Here you get housing benefit and council tax benefit. That means

that you rent is paid if you are unemployed. It is paid fully by

the

Council, but if you are private they will only pay 400 dollars a

month towards you rent.

We do not get food stamps. We do however get money that is

deposited

into the bank. My money is not means tested. Therefore whatever

earns or saves doesn't effect my Money. I get 140 dollars

a

week and picks up 400 dollars a week.

So I suppose in the end you probably get the same. If your rent

is

not paid you do get food stamps etc. Here they also have a

scheme

for single mothers. But that has been abused by Teen Mothers who

have seen an easy way to get a nice house and get away from their

parents.

But there doesn't appear to be schemes to get people back into

Education and that is not a problem for the short term. But if

it

carries on in America then their will be a Brain Drain and that

means

that less and less people will be able to fill the vital jobs

that

are needed. Such as Forensic Medicine. Networking and IT

Related

Jobs. Doctors and Nurses etc.

Steve

[Guest guest]

LOL bitterly. So true.

Louis

From: Chemer

Now on Job Applications they all put MUST HAVE INTERPERSONAL

SKILLS,

MUST BE ABLE TO WORK AS PART OF A TEAM. In other words you have

to

be not on the spectrum. It discriminates against Aspies, but

what

can we do???

If the job description said " MUST NOT BE BLIND " " MUST BE ABLE TO

WALK " Again there would be an outcry as that would be against

people

with those disabilities. But when it comes to AS I do not think

many

companies understand. Even traditional Aspie ones where all they

had

to do was input Data or Network and Progam Computers. Even those

now

require ability to work in groups.

Take care,

Steve

[Guest guest]

Cerulean Wrote:

>Anyone in modern society squawking about being

>oppressed by the patriarchy should try go living in

>some tribal society with no running water and no

>access to birth control for awhile.

Your expirence is different than mine. While in no way would I want to live

with an African tribe, to me that doesn't relate to patriarchal oppression.

When 75% of all women will be sexually harrassed at work at some point in thier

lifetime,

When a woman is raped, everyone thinks it's her fault (look at the stupid media

and the moranic Kobe issue), and the rape conviction is a mere 2%,

When 25% of all women are raped, 1 in 5 molested,

When the number one reason for the death of pregnant women is homocide by her

partner,

When women do 2/3 of the work and get 1/3 the pay, world wide, and in this

country get 30% less than a man does for the same job,

When I am not allowed to persue certain careers that I can do and love and I am

shunned, abused, physically threatened and sexually harrassed out of them for no

reason other than the fact that I'm a woman,

I'd say WE ARE oppressed by the patriarch. Much less so than before, but it's

still there, no doubt. I have lived it everyday of my life.

>historical feminism I'm proud of, but not the

>silliness of the last fifteen years

I'm assuming you're talking about " girl power " where women objectify themselves,

strip almost naked and then say they are powerful. That IS silly.

Jeanette

[Guest guest]

I know; I have that problem too. I really suck at making people

pay for their computer repairs. That’s why I want to get the rest

of my certs, so I can target small businesses and put them on a

maintenance contract. I’m wondering if I can offer computer

insurance?

Louis

From: Chemer

On the subject of building computers for people I usually end up

letting them off after a sob story etc. I am getting stronger

but I

once worked on someone's computer for 4 hours and he gave me 20

dollars. Even then I had to prise the money out of his hand as

he

did not think it was worth the cash.

I took out a 600 dollar insurance policy new for old

nomatter how long I have it. If the Screen goes they will not

replace it they will just give me a new Laptop.

[Guest guest]

gareth wrote:

> Your version of equality comes across as patronising sometimes. I

> would assume that this is normally the case, your type are up your

> ass as they have nowhere else to go.

Watch it Gareth.

> Ive seen that type before. -

> point being, you havnt a clue when it comes to relationships. a girl

> asked you out three times and you didnt see it as a come on? hello?

Your reading comprehension is as bad as your writing ability. That

never happened, pal. We went out three times... I never said she asked

me out three times.

> you've only been out with one girl- a girl that has a history of

> accepting second best (her course change was an example of that).

I said that I had only had one girlfriend, not that I had only been out

with one girl.

> A girl that doesnt like what you say you stand for. And you are

> certain there was no ulteriour motive for her going out with you.

We were together for 13 months, and there was nothing in it for her

other than companionship, sex, and respect. She did not use me to get

back at her parents, nor did she use me to get at my money (she was rich

and I was poor).

> It

> may be true, but it does illustrate the fact that you are no

> relationship guru. (just like me, but younger :-))

I'm ten years older than you. I've been watching people my whole life,

and I have learned some things about the way they act and behave. I had

to, since I lack the normal ability to " just understand " people by being

around them. I have to analyze and think about why people do things, or

else it is a complete mess. And doing that with people in person has

given me the ability to pick up on some things faster than people might

otherwise think I would be able to. People that are close to me are

sometimes freaked out by how perceptive I can be. It's all because I

lack the ability to read body language and " just understand " people. I

am clueless in some ways and keenly perceptive in others.

> And you brought up juli, i replied to that. i would like to keep it

> as such. will you please respect my wishes ?

You brought it up when she was over there in the UK with you,

complaining about her not being willing to be normal for you and your

friends, saying that if this is what autism is, it should be cured-- and

I responded to that. I brought it up this time, yes, because you felt

the need to gratuitously post " I don't like , " and given that the

reason you don't is that I supported the wrong party in your dispute, I

thought it relevant.

> (infact i really really wish i hadnt responded to your post

> mentioning her at all, but i fell for that one hook, line and sinker)

Not doing so would have allowed my statements about you and her to go

unchallenged and I would have had the last word. I doubt you would have

liked that any more.

> This is true of course, but still leaves my feelings for you

> unchanged, for reasons i will not go into at all, as this involves

> Juli, and like i say i wish to not talk about her on lists anymore, i

> think i made that awfull mistake already.

Yes, and you can't unring the bell. I won't dwell on this, at your

request, but you can't undo what was done.

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Juli! You put into words what I could not.

Louis

From: Miko715@...

did you even really read what she said, no? when has she ever

spoken out

against accommodating the disabled? you are the one, yes, with

the 'deal with it'

attitude, yes, like we not deal with enough NT's that say this to

us, yes. i

think it was by some grace you not deal with to extent of the

issues others

deal with as you not be able to handle it then, no. so thank G-d

you half and

half and not so many issues that you have to deal with, no, a

cowering animal you

would be if had to deal with sensory integration dysfunction or

many other

symptoms peoples had to deal with, peoples different, and no one

is like you

really think anymore, thank G-d.

mine nephew is labeled as Aspergers because of early speech, but

he also

suffers extreme sensory problems, where he can't even brush his

teeth or hair

without going through pain, even washing his hair he grits his

teeth in pain, he

cries in pain just hearing people chew their food, he passed out

from pain just

being forced into school cafeteria, but because asperger label,

people get

idea that it is nothing, no. better off just being labeled

autistic then, yes,

but because of good speech, aspergers he is labeled, no services,

mine brother

fighting school system, and teachers, because mine nephew in

constant pain and

school peoples say " Oh, it's only Asperger's " how will he be able

to 'deal

with it' then. but what do you care, of what others are going

through?

And of mine niece also asperger's but no real sensory problems,

(except lack

of thereof) strong as an ox, one year younger, and much stronger

than mine

nephew, and peoples tell her to be a lady yes, and tell mine

nephew not to cry.

because of this stupid 'roles' that society forced upon peoples.

Mine nephew got bullied for being sensitive and gentle, yes, and

it was mine

niece who fought the bullies off. They did naught wrong, no. but

mine nephew

was told to be a man and not cry, and mine niece scolded for

fighting and not

being ladylike, yes. and both made to feel like what they did

was wrong

because they not fit until stupid gender roles that means,

nothing at all.

Be what you are, big man that you think you are, but protect me

not, as I am

way bigger than you.

Juli ASD mother to Nicollette Rett Syndrome w/autism

[Guest guest]

I do a lot of “male” stuff; working on the car, mowing the lawn,

hunting and fishing, electronics, etc. I still like being a

“woman” though, so I do wear makeup and I do my hair and if I’m

not going to be getting grease all over myself in the next few

weeks I will do my nails with acrylic. What annoys me is when men

ask me if I “know what I’m doing” or are amazed that I can do

“man” stuff.

I remember when I was 9 yo and my dad asked me to hand him a pipe

wrench. When I handed him the right wrench, his friend who was

with us expressed amazement. My dad and I both stared at him like

he had two heads; neither of us understood that not everyone

knows what a pipe wrench looks like. It was no big deal to us.

Since then I have known many a man that doesn’t know what a pipe

wrench looks like either, so it’s still no big deal to me. It’s

all a matter of experience in my opinion.

Louis

From: Jane Meyerding

wrote:

>I do not have a brain that is constructed like a typical male

brain.

>I'm glad of that. I feel more gender neutral than male.

I feel more gender neutral than female, even though I'm

completely " normal " in biological sex characteristics.

Like you, , it's the brain that makes the difference.

>... I find most of the

>stereotyped male behaviors to be fully unacceptable, and in no

way do I

>wish to be " a man " if that is what men are.

I find many stereotyped female behaviors like fingernails

on a blackboard. Other stereotyped female behaviors seem

to be characteristics of " cherished subservience " and

objectionable on that basis. And many " normal " " female "

charcteristics (the sort of thing that comes up when

someone says " Women do ____ " " Women think _____ "

" Women like _______ " etc.) are merely alien for me. I

never rank as " a woman " by those standards.

Jane

[Guest guest]

>

> > Your version of equality comes across as patronising sometimes. I

> > would assume that this is normally the case, your type are up

your

> > ass as they have nowhere else to go.

>

> Watch it Gareth.

I used the same phrase you used, but with different specifics, a

warning from you now would be only a personal problem carried over to

a moderators job.

>

> > And you brought up juli, i replied to that. i would like to keep

it

> > as such. will you please respect my wishes ?

>

> You brought it up when she was over there in the UK with you,

> complaining about her not being willing to be normal for you and

your

> friends, saying that if this is what autism is, it should be cured--

and

> I responded to that.

If anybody wants to know what i said, join autadvo, and type

in " lions den " in the search engine. Youll have an opinion on it, and

id say it would be 5 to 1 against me. But bear in mind, i said what i

said not what said i said.

(thats a truism , no need to respond)

Gareth

Please do let that be the end of discussing Juli now, please, last

post you talked about her then at the end said you would respect my

wishes not to talk about her. Thats not fair, please do let it drop

now.

Gareth

[Guest guest]

I come from a matriarchal society, there are similarities. In my

society the women marry for life and do not take lovers. We also

belong to our Grandmother, Mother, Aunts, sisters, etc. The males

are not drones, and have responsibilities in the tribe; they just

don’t get to arbitrarily make the rules. They can contribute to

the discussions on the rules, and their input and wisdom is

valued. They also don’t get to pick a fight whenever they feel

“offended” by someone else. “Hothead” males are usually banished,

because they can cause the death of the whole tribe with one rash

action.

“Historians, anthropologists, and other scholars” are looking in

the wrong places if they can’t find genuine matriarchal

societies.

Louis

From: gprobertson@...

apart from wondering where the idea that patriarchies developed

with the advent of agrarian society (nomadic tribes have this

too) I wondered just how idyllic a matriarch would really be.

http://www.promatriarchy.net/essentials/mosuo.html

This sounds like bliss for the females, but then i think about

the bitch packs i have encountered and i wonder what would happen

to anyone who failed to conform, and this is a highly conformist,

rigid group. personally i would have been up shit creek there,

as i prefered dark clothing even when i was young, and i could

not have lived communally. i have rarely enjoyed the company of

women, as most seem so inspired to destroy difference if it is

not the particular brand of difference they support. men

generally appear to be more accepting, although the barefoot and

pregnant brigade does still exist.

i note that this group is not about equal rights at all. the

males appear to be drones sexually as well as in the workforce.

it does appear to be a gentle society, and then i wonder if it

really is, or have they got those guys by the goolies so that

they are actually very effectively suppressed.

there is also this group:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-05/uop-imm050902.php

[Guest guest]

gareth wrote:

> >> Your version of equality comes across as patronising sometimes. I

> >> would assume that this is normally the case, your type are up

> your

> >> ass as they have nowhere else to go.

> >

> > Watch it Gareth.

>

> I used the same phrase you used, but with different specifics, a

> warning from you now would be only a personal problem carried over to

> a moderators job.

Personal attacks are not allowed here; that is the only rule the group

has. I give people a little more leeway when attacking me than others,

but that is not absolute. If you had accused anyone else of " being up

your ass as they have nowhere else go go, " you would have been on

moderated status now.

I tend to be pretty lenient in allowing heated debates on here, as I

myself like a lively and sometimes harsh debate, but that comment was

over the line. The comment that I said about people like you was not an

outright insult-- it was an observation that people that argue as you do

usually end up flaming, and you came damn close to proving my point

right there. If you can't see the difference between the comment I made

and the comment you made, then I ask that you refrain from approaching

that line, because I won't warn you again.

[Guest guest]

My neighbor’s boyfriend told her that she “disobedient” last

night. I threw him out.

Louis

From: Jane Meyerding

There's a theory that men-in-power (definitely a sub-set

of the gender as a whole) impose on " their women " whatever

appearance the time-period accepts as proof of wealth.