Re: Multi-rant

[Guest guest]

>

>

> > The " gender norms " are a law given to us by the

> patriarch. Since they

> > are so obsessed that women and men MUST be

> different ( or the men

> > would be women), these stupid rules govern

> society. Women are forced

> > to get rail thin (female invisibility to make

> fearful men more

> > comfortable)

>

---------Well, we *are* different..... the blessing

comes in that we don't have to be ruled by those

differences anymore, and have choices.

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

>... My uncle learned how to sew by taking a sewing class at one of those

>material stores. He told me the women encouraged him, supported him,

>helped him out. Also, did you ever stop to think how many chefs are male?

>

>Men DISCOURAGE other men from taking these courses, saying sewing is

> " woman's work " , or that guys that do that are " sissies " .

Some of the handful of people at the pinnacle of the

" teddy bear world " are men. Men who make teddy-bears.

Men who sew well enough to get $1,000 for a single

bear.

There also are several very successful married couples

(traditional man/woman marriages) who make and sell

teddy bears.

I have no idea whether any of the bear-making men took

sewing or " Home Ec " at school. May depend on their age,

more than anything else.

Jane

[Guest guest]

--- wrote:

>

>

> > How does one pronounce those pronouns? Is the x

> pronounced like a " z "

> > as in the first x of Xerox?

>

> Yes.

>

> X is pronounced like Z.

>

> Xe rhymes with he.

>

> Xyr rhymes with her.

>

> Xem rhymes with them.

>

>

>

----------And the point of doing that is.......?

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

--- Jane Meyerding wrote:

> >...Incidentally, what is the meaning of the

> >term that has been used in reference to the fellow

> in charge of

> >Autreat? Does that mean " other " or...?

>

> Yes, it means " other. " Intersexual.

>

> If I were at work, I could give you the URL for

> xyr [non-gendered pronoun form for his/her] web

> site.

>

> Jane

--------What is intersexual?

Nanne

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> > Yes.

> > X is pronounced like Z.

> > Xe rhymes with he.

> > Xyr rhymes with her.

> > Xem rhymes with them.

> ----------And the point of doing that is.......?

As I said earlier in this thread, Jim (a pseudonym) is intersexed. Born

anatomically neither male nor female. It wouldn't make sense to call

xem " he " or " she " as if xe were male or female, since xe is not.

You can read more about intersexuality at:

http://www.jimsinclair.org/

--

" Professional advocates talk about empowering their clients when they're

actually, at best, acting on behalf of their clients' expressed

interests and, at worst, making decisions of their own on behalf of a

client whom they feel is not capable of making 'responsible' decisions "

-Rae Unzicker

[Guest guest]

> It wouldn't make sense to call

> xem " he " or " she " as if xe were

> male or female, since xe is not.

Yes, and it's a matter of respect,

to acknowledge xyr as the person xe

is. Just as using Mr. or Mrs., or

Sir or Madam would be pigeon-holing

xyr into whichever appellation a person

thought xe was, using gender specific

pronouns regarding xym is a kind of

violation of xyr individual rights.

I understand that, but what I don't understand, (not

bothered by, just don't understand), is why xe and

others use the non-gender specific pronouns talking

about others, who are obviously he's and she's. It

just doesn't compute.

Clay

[Guest guest]

Hi,

" Intersexual " is simply a more modern replacement for the term " hermaphrodite. "

That is, a person who has the complete (or partial) reproductive organs of both

sexes, someone who is genetically XY but externally male (androgen insensitivity

syndrome) or someone who is a chromosonal mosaic (some cells are XX, some XY).

Re: Multi-rant

--- Jane Meyerding wrote:

> >...Incidentally, what is the meaning of the

> >term that has been used in reference to the fellow

> in charge of

> >Autreat? Does that mean " other " or...?

>

> Yes, it means " other. " Intersexual.

>

> If I were at work, I could give you the URL for

> xyr [non-gendered pronoun form for his/her] web

> site.

>

> Jane

--------What is intersexual?

Nanne

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

--- Clay wrote:

> I understand that, but what I don't understand,

(not

> bothered by, just don't understand), is why xe and

> others use the non-gender specific pronouns talking

> about others, who are obviously he's and she's. It

> just doesn't compute.

>

> Clay

>

------If there is no leaning toward male or female,

why is xe called " Jim " ?

(I looked at that link, and still don't understand

what intersexual is...is it hermaphroditism?)

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

--- Jane Meyerding wrote:

> Nanne wrote:

> >--------What is intersexual?

>

> Androgynous. A body that has both typically male and

> typically female characteristics. Neither one nor

> the other.

---------sorry, this is confusing.... is it both, or

is it neither? If it's both, why isn't it called

hermaphroditism?

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

Okay, thanks,

Nanne

--- Newstead wrote:

> Hi,

>

> " Intersexual " is simply a more modern replacement

> for the term " hermaphrodite. " That is, a person who

> has the complete (or partial) reproductive organs of

> both sexes, someone who is genetically XY but

> externally male (androgen insensitivity syndrome) or

> someone who is a chromosonal mosaic (some cells are

> XX, some XY).

>

>

> Re: Multi-rant

>

>

>

> --- Jane Meyerding wrote:

> > >...Incidentally, what is the meaning of the

> > >term that has been used in reference to the

> fellow

> > in charge of

> > >Autreat? Does that mean " other " or...?

> >

> > Yes, it means " other. " Intersexual.

> >

> > If I were at work, I could give you the URL for

> > xyr [non-gendered pronoun form for his/her] web

> > site.

> >

> > Jane

>

> --------What is intersexual?

>

> Nanne

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi,

" Intersexed " is a broader term. Hermaphrodites used to be in two

categories-- " true " hermaphrodites and " pseudo " -hermaphrodites. The first have

the complete sexual organs of both sexes, while the second may have one complete

set and one partial. " Intersexed " was adopted as an umbrella term to include

those and some of the other conditions mentioned.

Re: Multi-rant

--- Jane Meyerding wrote:

> Nanne wrote:

> >--------What is intersexual?

>

> Androgynous. A body that has both typically male and

> typically female characteristics. Neither one nor

> the other.

---------sorry, this is confusing.... is it both, or

is it neither? If it's both, why isn't it called

hermaphroditism?

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

> " Intersexual " is simply a more modern replacement for the term

> " hermaphrodite. " That is, a person who has the complete (or partial)

> reproductive organs of both sexes, someone who is genetically XY but

> externally male (androgen insensitivity syndrome) or someone who is a

> chromosonal mosaic (some cells are XX, some XY).

Or in this case, someone who has *neither* set of reproductive organs.

(Usually the ones you talk about get more attention, so the " neither "

thing is not as well-known.)

--

" Day after day, they take some brain away, then turn my face around to

the far side of town. They tell me that it's real, then ask me how I

feel. " - Bowie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/9/2003 11:35:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

ceruleaniwa@... writes:

>

> --------What is intersexual?

>

> Nanne

>

it is both sexed. or having another sexual chromosomal abnormality XXY, XXX,

XYY, and XXYY. and is a lost more common than peoples think, yes, as many go

undiagnosed for most their lives. common reasons for identification is

developmental delay and adolescence, yes, during puberty.

from: <A

HREF= " http://www.dor.kaiser.org/genetics/OurServices/XXY-XYY-XXXMain.html#FAQ2 " >

http://www.dor.kaiser.org/genetics/OurServices/XXY-XYY-XXXMain.html#FAQ2</A>

" Sex chromosome abnormalities are some of the most common chromosome

abnormalities. Approximately 2 to 3 babies are born with a sex chromosome

abnormality

every day in California. Most of these individuals will never know that they

have a sex chromosome abnormality because there is usually nothing out of the

ordinary about their behavior, appearance, or mental development. "

[Guest guest]

> ------If there is no leaning toward male or female,

> why is xe called " Jim " ?

Because xe apparently needed a pseudonym for MAAP (gather this from

their old newsletter archive) and picked a name at random (xe uses a

different name in non-autism contexts). And since xe was raised with

people thinking xe was a girl, xe's less comfortable getting mistaken

for a " she " than for a " he " , even though xe's pretty adamant about not

being a " he " either.

> (I looked at that link, and still don't understand

> what intersexual is...is it hermaphroditism?)

Yes, as well as other sexes that are neither male nor female (rather

than the famous " both " thing). Xe has neither the sexual organs of a

male nor the sexual organs of a female (thus none of the

hormone-producing bits either), and was born this way.

--

" Organising a group of autistics is rather like herding cats. " -FAQ,

alt.support.autism

[Guest guest]

Clay wrote:

>I understand that, but what I don't understand, (not

>bothered by, just don't understand), is why xe and

>others use the non-gender specific pronouns talking

>about others, who are obviously he's and she's. It

>just doesn't compute.

For the same reason as many feminists prefer to use

Ms. for all women. Using Mrs. and Miss depending on

whether a woman is maried or not implies that a

woman's marital status matters in every situation

(whereas it's actually irrelevant except when

there is courting behavior contemplated). Women

were discriminated against for decades in employment

on the basis of their marital status. Usine Ms for

all is a way of refusing to " play along with " that

system of discrimination.

Similarly, using gender-neutral pronouns is a way

of saying that a person's gender is irrelevant in

most instances and circumstances of public life.

And it also leaves room for the existence of those

who are neither male nor female. It " levels the

playing field. "

Jane

[Guest guest]

Nanne wrote:

>--------What is intersexual?

Androgynous. A body that has both typically male and

typically female characteristics. Neither one nor

the other. And the non-gendered pronouns are a way

to make the existence of non-male/non-female people

visible in the world. There are more intersexual

people (born androgynous) in the world than most of

us realize.

In the past, most have been " assigned " to one gender

or the other by whatever doctor was " in charge " at

the birth. (This would be in the relatively recent

past, obviously; men didn't use to be in charge of

childbirth.) But now more intersexual people are

deciding to (insisting on) being who/what they are,

not taking on either gender, living as intersexuals.

Jane

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/10/2003 12:28:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

adamsCLAYADAMS@... writes:

> I understand that, but what I don't understand, (not

> bothered by, just don't understand), is why xe and

> others use the non-gender specific pronouns talking

> about others, who are obviously he's and she's. It

> just doesn't compute.

>

because they can essentially be 'either' or 'or', yes. i had an Y chromosome

but it remained mostly inactivated during fetal development, yes, but still

played out in some of mine cells, yes.

i also had extra X chromosome, . i did suffer developmental delay yes, and

during puberty had to be put on hormone therapy, yes, to be made more female as

i had functional ovaries, yes. my nephew does also have and extra X

chromosome, kleinfelter syndrome, he is male, but will be infertile. hormone

therapy (if

he wants) in his teens will keep him from developing breasts. Kleinfelter

syndrome is at 1 of 600 births.

[Guest guest]

> >> The " gender norms " are a law given to us by the patriarch.

Since they

> >> are so obsessed that women and men MUST be different ( or the men

> >> would be women), these stupid rules govern society. Women are

forced

> >> to get rail thin (female invisibility to make fearful men more

> >> comfortable)

>

> and responded:

> >Then the patriarch must be a really recent invention, because

standards

> >for female beauty are different across cultures and have changed

toward

> > " rail-thin " very recently (within the lifetime of some of the

people on

> >this mailing list, I'll bet).

>

> There's a theory that men-in-power (definitely a sub-set

> of the gender as a whole) impose on " their women " whatever

> appearance the time-period accepts as proof of wealth.

> So, when s was painting, for example, a wealthy man's

> wife would show his wealth by being " eseque " (what

> today would be called fat). He could afford to buy her

> lots of food and let her live a life of leisure rather

> than hard work. Her size proclaimed his wealth to the

> world.

>

> These days, lower-class women are likely to be bigger

> (because of the food available, mostly, which provides

> more bulk than nutrition if it's cheap food affordable

> by poor people), whereas rich women (rich men's wives)

> can afford expensive diet foods and memberships in gyms

> and hours spent on their bodies instead of work (in-

> home or out).

>

> Because " everyone " aspires to upper-class values, even

> those who are not rich want " their women " to be thin

> now, and women have taken on the value system, too.

>

> Jane

Well thats ironic, as now here i have been linked with the taliban

and the ruling parties of america in that wonderfully rich patriarchy

post provided by jeanette, and yet people who know me from other

lists will know that i have always stated a large preferance for the

larger women.

Although i do see where jane is coming from, and it is a good

explanation of why one body fashion appears to be in place, it just

goes to show that a man (i.e me) who beleives in his manlieness and

doesnt wish his penis away can still have a healthy mind that is an

individual mind.

I lost my virginity with a fat woman and will always remember one

particular fat woman. Big is beautifull.

Gareth.

[Guest guest]

> >

> > > The " gender norms " are a law given to us by the

> > patriarch. Since they

> > > are so obsessed that women and men MUST be

> > different ( or the men

> > > would be women), these stupid rules govern

> > society. Women are forced

> > > to get rail thin (female invisibility to make

> > fearful men more

> > > comfortable)

> >

> ---------Well, we *are* different..... the blessing

> comes in that we don't have to be ruled by those

> differences anymore, and have choices.

>

> Nanne

>

Quite! but do you see where she came from originally- that if it

wernt for men, women and men would be the same- thats the starting

point for femenism, that underlying beleif of sameness. oh, im sure

now youve pointed it out she will have all sorts of rational to

correct her slip of the tongue, but still now the secret is out.

She said that if men didnt pass down rules onto men, men are

terrified they would be just like women!

thats the difference, that brand of femenism (ie militant) is all

about changing equality from its original meaning, into saying that

men and women are the same.

masculism is about acnowledging God given differences, and saying

that they are all groovy differences, and lets stop fighting against

them.

Gareth.

oh, and ill repeat, in a population of billions, there will be

millions of obvious exceptions. thats fine, thats how nature works.

there will be allsorts imbeetween, but the fact wether its liked by

femenists or not is that by mean average there are many many

wholesome differences beetween the sexes.

and especially now that it is being suggested that newly diagnosed

autistics and aspergics are to be directed to a website all about

having no sexuality, without the correlate opposite to allow for

informed choice, the virtues of manliness need to be pointed out in

this effeminate arena now more than ever. Aspergic men like myself

have been bullied to high heaven, (so have women by being bitched

at). It takes corrective therapy for one not to be afraid of ones

manliness, for fear of one immitating the bullies or feeling a

failure.

ones manlieness is a good thing, a very good thing.

Gareth

[Guest guest]

> >--------What is intersexual?

>

> Androgynous. A body that has both typically male and

> typically female characteristics. Neither one nor

> the other. And the non-gendered pronouns are a way

> to make the existence of non-male/non-female people

> visible in the world. There are more intersexual

> people (born androgynous) in the world than most of

> us realize.

>

> In the past, most have been " assigned " to one gender

> or the other by whatever doctor was " in charge " at

> the birth. (This would be in the relatively recent

> past, obviously; men didn't use to be in charge of

> childbirth.) But now more intersexual people are

> deciding to (insisting on) being who/what they are,

> not taking on either gender, living as intersexuals.

>

> Jane

having men " in charge " as you say of childbirth makes no difference.

Where are the outcries of " where have all our transgendered people

gone " having " men in charge " as you say has made no difference. In

fact, as these things are more often recorded, you will see a rise in

cases.

Gareth

[Guest guest]

> >I understand that, but what I don't understand, (not

> >bothered by, just don't understand), is why xe and

> >others use the non-gender specific pronouns talking

> >about others, who are obviously he's and she's. It

> >just doesn't compute.

>

> For the same reason as many feminists prefer to use

> Ms. for all women. Using Mrs. and Miss depending on

> whether a woman is maried or not implies that a

> woman's marital status matters in every situation

> (whereas it's actually irrelevant except when

> there is courting behavior contemplated). Women

> were discriminated against for decades in employment

> on the basis of their marital status. Usine Ms for

> all is a way of refusing to " play along with " that

> system of discrimination.

>

> Similarly, using gender-neutral pronouns is a way

> of saying that a person's gender is irrelevant in

> most instances and circumstances of public life.

> And it also leaves room for the existence of those

> who are neither male nor female. It " levels the

> playing field. "

>

> Jane

in other words, it attempts to equalize people out of existance,

based on a small minority of people who *feel* inferior and must

therefore fight against the world to change things in their favour.

Like femenism nowadays, in fact.

Gareth

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> Xe has neither the sexual organs of a

> male nor the sexual organs of a female (thus none of the

> hormone-producing bits either), and was born this way.

I'm jealous. Well, not really; I don't really experience that

particular emotion much at all, but I have wished I could be free of

mine for a long time. The only thing useful about a penis that I can

think of is making it easier to urinate standing up. The rest of it is

just dead weight that secretes nasty stuff into my blood.... yuck.

[Guest guest]

gareth wrote:

> in other words, it attempts to equalize people out of existance,

> based on a small minority of people who *feel* inferior and must

> therefore fight against the world to change things in their favour.

>

> Like femenism nowadays, in fact.

I do not know much about feminism, as a lot of what I have heard came

through the filter of the conservative Republicans, but from what I

know, it makes sense to me. I have never felt compelled to be the one

making all of the decisions in a relationship... nor have I really been

comfortable with the assumed role as far as being the one to ask someone

out. I certainly do not feel as if I should have to pay for the

female's meal, movie tickets, et cetera, on a date. I think that is an

anachronism from a time in which women did not have money of their own,

and men were the sole providers of that money and the things it buys.

This presented a problem with my first (and so far only) girlfriend,

whom I went with from 1990-1991. Though she was in college learning

electrical engineering technology (that last word essentially means

" lite " in this context; she tried to be a full-on EE student but

couldn't cut it), she had this idea that she did not want to make more

than the man she marries, and she expected to have him dominate her,

make decisions for her, and pay for everything they did together. I did

none of those, and she did not like it.

I remember debating with my mother's boyfriend about something like

this. He related a story on TV where a classroom was supposedly so full

that one little girl did not have a desk at which to sit. He said that

every boy in the class should have insisted that she have his desk instead.

Notwithstanding the fact that desk assignments are the decision of the

teacher, not the kids, this made no sense to me. Is a little girl

somehow more deserving of a desk than a boy? Or maybe it's that, being

female, she is so fragile that not having a desk will damage her worse

than a boy? I couldn't quite grasp why a male should automatically give

up an asset to a complete stranger based on her sex.

He went on to ask whether I would, on a crowded bus, give up my seat to

a woman that was standing. I said that I would not even have thought

about it. If I got the seat fair and square... in other words, I got

there first, I don't know why I would automatically give it up to a

female any more than I would to a male. If it was a very old person or

another person that seemed to be having difficulty, I would offer the

seat if it occurred to me, but I would not if she was a female with no

apparent difficulties.

This debate was going on not long after Lynch became famous, so

my mom's boyfriend commented that maybe things had changed; now we have

female soldiers, which was not the case when he was in Vietnam.

I do not like the stereotypical, old-style female gender script. If I

want subservience, I will get a dog. I like females that are not afraid

to speak their minds and use their intelligence. I certainly do not

want to always have to be the one to initiate dates, sexual activity, or

what have you.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/10/2003 10:53:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

amanda@... writes:

> I *also* pointed out that Jim Sinclair's site -- the *autism* part --

> would be good on that list of introductory autism stuff. Because

> whether you agree with everything xe says or not, xe was one of the

> early autistic self-advocates and there's historical interest in a lot

> of the articles (some of which are now widely published in literature on

> autism) on xyr site. And it's also autism-positive, as that list of

> sites was that was being formed.

>

it was a good site as mine nephew has Klienfelter syndrome (well XXY

syndrome, not a big deal, no). autism has been associated with forms of

Klienfelter

(or is it Klinefelter?) Syndrome, yes, (as well as learning disabilities and

language problems, But besides the point that is)

Thanks,

Juli ASD mother to Nicollette Rett Syndrome w/autism

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/10/2003 10:55:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

szo701@... writes:

> Here we go again. Your patriarchal fear is showing! Gareth, no one ever

> said you don't have the right to exist. You aren't Israel, here.

>

LOL.

Juli ASD mother to Nicollette Rett Syndrome w/autism