Re: Multi-rant

[Guest guest]

>One huge problem with everything you just said is that women with

>autism

>can't do about 90% of what you talked about, and by *definition* --

>literally -- men with autism do in fact highly value information in

>the

>form of perseverative interests.

>

>So while perhaps your beliefs stand up if you're talking about NTs,

>they

>don't suit the autistic spectrum at all. Which means that, once

>again, it

>is a case of NTs having one wiring and ACs having another entirely.

>

Hi you are right and many Autistic Women actually display

masculine traits and many Male Aspies Feminine ones, such as

sensitivity etc. hardly ever wears makeup and is very tom

boyish.

Steve

>

>

[Guest guest]

--- gareth wrote:

>

> > Hi Gareth,

> >

> > Jesus himself would be called a bum today as he

> didn't have a job

> at

> > all.

> >

> > Steve

>

> yes he would. at least untill he showed what else he

> could do.

>

> Gareth

>

-------If he did, he'd be locked up in a psych ward

somewhere and pumped full of drugs.

Nanne

=====

" Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " --

Seurat

[Guest guest]

> > > Hi Gareth,

> > >

> > > Jesus himself would be called a bum today as he

> > didn't have a job

> > at

> > > all.

> > >

> > > Steve

> >

> > yes he would. at least untill he showed what else he

> > could do.

> >

> > Gareth

> >

> -------If he did, he'd be locked up in a psych ward

> somewhere and pumped full of drugs.

not in india or old style Tibet

[Guest guest]

wrote:

>I do not have a brain that is constructed like a typical male brain.

>I'm glad of that. I feel more gender neutral than male.

I feel more gender neutral than female, even though I'm

completely " normal " in biological sex characteristics.

Like you, , it's the brain that makes the difference.

>... I find most of the

>stereotyped male behaviors to be fully unacceptable, and in no way do I

>wish to be " a man " if that is what men are.

I find many stereotyped female behaviors like fingernails

on a blackboard. Other stereotyped female behaviors seem

to be characteristics of " cherished subservience " and

objectionable on that basis. And many " normal " " female "

charcteristics (the sort of thing that comes up when

someone says " Women do ____ " " Women think _____ "

" Women like _______ " etc.) are merely alien for me. I

never rank as " a woman " by those standards.

Jane

[Guest guest]

Clay wrote:

>(That's all I got, I'm still tired from dealing with another

>outrageously ignorant " super-aspie " on another list.) 8<{)

ROTFL! When I read the above, all I could think of was " It's a bird, it's a

plane, no......it's.......SUPER-ASPIE!!! "

I just thought it was funny! :-D

Take care,

Gail :-)

[Guest guest]

> wrote:

> >I do not have a brain that is constructed like a typical male brain.

> >I'm glad of that. I feel more gender neutral than male.

> I feel more gender neutral than female, even though I'm

> completely " normal " in biological sex characteristics.

> Like you, , it's the brain that makes the difference.

I don't well understand the concept of an identity that is based in

femaleness (or maleness, or gender-neutrality), but as far as I've heard

lists of " male-brained traits " and " female-brained traits " I fall mostly

on the male end. I feel the effects of female hormonal fluctuations

though.

--

" It's a handy trick, to have the oppressed play violins at the entrance

way to new captivity. " -Dave Hingsburger

[Guest guest]

From: " gareth "

Saturday, August 09, 2003 3:38 PM

> > Hi Gareth,

> >

> > Jesus himself would be called a bum today as he didn't have a job

> at

> > all.

> >

> > Steve

>

> yes he would. at least untill he showed what else he could do.

>

> Gareth

True...then he could start a career as a televangelist ).

[Guest guest]

Miko715@... danced around singing:

> > wrote:

> > >I do not have a brain that is constructed like a typical male brain.

> > >I'm glad of that. I feel more gender neutral than male.

>Jane said:

> > I feel more gender neutral than female, even though I'm

> > completely " normal " in biological sex characteristics.

> > Like you, , it's the brain that makes the difference.

>

>Agreed, myself as well, yes.

Same here... I've got the biological sex characteristics, but zero

leanings towards being 'female' behaviorally. It's not because my parents

didn't encourage me to be more girly when I was little, just because it's

not how I am. I don't understand why people are attracted to anybody they

don't have a deep emotional bond with, as I don't have that kind of

interest for men (or women) unless I'm already extremely attached... I

didn't even identify with being *human* until I met others on the spectrum

and realized that we're a different kind of human.

I remember being irritated when I was perseverating on role-playing games

on my computer as a pre-teen and the newer games wouldn't let me have a

character with the gender of " other " rather than " male " or " female. " I

didn't want to be either gender! Incidentally, what is the meaning of the

term that has been used in reference to the fellow in charge of

Autreat? Does that mean " other " or...?

DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

" It's not 'being fussy' -- it's knowing what you want. "

[Guest guest]

>

> >

> > That's all I got, I'm still tired from dealing with another

> > outrageously ignorant " super-aspie " on another list.) 8<{)

> >

> > What is a " super-aspie? "

Hi Jeanette,

Well, not many here would have " got " the reference,

but there used to be someone on another list with

the screen name, " Superaspie@... " , (something

like that), and he was bounced for spewing a lot of

nonsense about how aspies were actually superior to

NTs, were going to take over the world, (shades of

" Pinky and the Brain " ), with a lot of racism and

sexism thrown in, to boot. The guy was so arrogant

and boastful about how intelligent he was, (though

you couldn't tell it by his spelling), and when someone

would try to pin him down to prove some outrageously

stupid thing he had said, he just ignored them and

went off on another rant.

If you want to analyze it, it was all over-compensation,

of course. I don't know what ever it was that happened

to him in his life, but he was certainly embittered, and

wanted to feel better than *somebody*, so he made himself

out to be " better " than all these other groups of people.

I guess he was looking for somebody to agree with him, but

he didn't find any there. Everyone got so annoyed with his

arrogance and belligerence, that they stopped talking to him.

He dropped out, and I don't know what happened to him.

Clay

[Guest guest]

> > wrote:

> > >I do not have a brain that is constructed like a typical male brain.

> > >I'm glad of that. I feel more gender neutral than male.

>Jane said:

> > I feel more gender neutral than female, even though I'm

> > completely " normal " in biological sex characteristics.

> > Like you, , it's the brain that makes the difference.

>

Yes, I feel the same way- I have more male interests than female. The only

girly side comes out when I decorate- I like green, florals and n

things.

I think this discussion proves that women and men are almost the same ( except

for some obvious things!) - they just choose to be different.

A lot of aspies here are gender neutral or have more " opposite gender "

interests. Aspies go with thier hearts, unaware or unconcered about the

miserable NT " gender norms " that are imposed on society. In that way, it is

shown that if people had free choice they would be androgenous a lot of the

time.

The " gender norms " are a law given to us by the patriarch. Since they are so

obsessed that women and men MUST be different ( or the men would be women),

these stupid rules govern society. Women are forced to get rail thin (female

invisibility to make fearful men more comfortable), wear make-up to cover thier

real faces, and remove all body hair- just so that they will create and

accentuate the " differences " of males and females.

A lot of traditional female dress, attitude, etc. is imposed upon women as a

badge of servitude. Example: Skirts:

Did you know that in ancent times women wore skirts to keep them from running

away from thier men? High Heels: Like chinese feet binding, designed to limit

female movement and accentuate parts of the female body, objectifying it and

giving pleasure to men.

Female submissiveness is intoduced long before purberty - " be a good girl " ,

" girls are ment to be seen and not heard " . Little girls are punished more often

and much more severely for similar offenses than boys are in elemenary school.

Boys are told they need to be winners, and girls are told they need to be sweet,

pleasant, submissive, " feminine " . ICK!!!

and it's enforced later in life - " Are you good enough for him? " , " men are

strong, women are bitches " Blah, Blah, Blah. Fuck it all.

I was told once that I'd make a good guy. I have a somewhat feminine appearance

in the sence of curves and small boned. On occasion I wear feminine things that

I like ( not heels, and rarely a skirt unless it has free movement).

My androgeny can be confusing to NTs and it's fun. One day I was renting a room

from a friend and helping her with repairs to the house ( I 'm a fair

handywoman). I went into the kitchen in a pink lacy thing, and said " I need to

charge my Makita " in my usual deep, blunt tone, holding my drill. My friend

laughed hysterically. It wasn't at me- that's for sure. She thought it was

unique and funny- dressed so feminine acting so male!

Jeanette

PS: My feminist ideas come from many sources like Marilyn French, Dworkin

(early work), Gloria Steinem, in case you were wondering. Feminism is one of my

strong interests.

[Guest guest]

>

> From: " gareth "

> Saturday, August 09, 2003 3:38 PM

>

>

> > > Hi Gareth,

> > >

> > > Jesus himself would be called a bum today as he didn't have a

job

> > at

> > > all.

> > >

> > > Steve

> >

> > yes he would. at least untill he showed what else he could do.

> >

> > Gareth

>

> True...then he could start a career as a televangelist ).

>

>

quite!! indeed, yes :-0)

[Guest guest]

> > >

> > > That's all I got, I'm still tired from dealing with another

> > > outrageously ignorant " super-aspie " on another list.) 8<{)

> > >

> > > What is a " super-aspie? "

>

> Hi Jeanette,

> Well, not many here would have " got " the reference,

> but there used to be someone on another list with

> the screen name, " Superaspie@A... " , (something

> like that), and he was bounced for spewing a lot of

> nonsense about how aspies were actually superior to

> NTs, were going to take over the world, (shades of

> " Pinky and the Brain " ), with a lot of racism and

> sexism thrown in, to boot. The guy was so arrogant

> and boastful about how intelligent he was, (though

> you couldn't tell it by his spelling), and when someone

> would try to pin him down to prove some outrageously

> stupid thing he had said, he just ignored them and

> went off on another rant.

>

> If you want to analyze it, it was all over-compensation,

> of course. I don't know what ever it was that happened

> to him in his life, but he was certainly embittered, and

> wanted to feel better than *somebody*, so he made himself

> out to be " better " than all these other groups of people.

> I guess he was looking for somebody to agree with him, but

> he didn't find any there. Everyone got so annoyed with his

> arrogance and belligerence, that they stopped talking to him.

> He dropped out, and I don't know what happened to him.

>

> Clay

he changed his name to gtlee1000@... (only joking!) :-o)

Gareth (really :-))

[Guest guest]

apart from wondering where the idea that patriarchies developed with the advent

of agrarian society (nomadic tribes have this too) I wondered just how idyllic a

matriarch would really be.  

http://www.promatriarchy.net/essentials/mosuo.html

This sounds like bliss for the females, but then i think about the bitch packs i

have encountered and i wonder what would happen to anyone who failed to conform,

and this is a highly conformist, rigid group.  personally i would have been up

shit creek there, as i prefered dark clothing even when i was young, and i could

not have lived communally.  i have rarely enjoyed the company of women, as most

seem so inspired to destroy difference if it is not the particular brand of

difference they support.  men generally appear to be more accepting, although

the barefoot and pregnant brigade does still exist.

i note that this group is not about equal rights at all.  the males appear to be

drones sexually as well as in the workforce.  it does appear to be a gentle

society, and then i wonder if it really is, or have they got those guys by the

goolies so that they are actually very effectively suppressed.

there is also this group:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-05/uop-imm050902.php

Sounds lovely, but i note that there is a contradiction:

" Social prestige accrues to those who promote good relations by following the

dictates of custom and religion. "

then at the end of the article, referring to the adoption of islam as the

religion,

" Had the Minangkabau chosen to fight rather than to accommodate the numerous

influences that impinged on their world over the centuries, had they chosen to

assert cultural purity, no doubt their 'adat' would have long ago succumbed. The

moral of the Minangkabau story is that accommodating differences can preserve a

world " (from Women in the Center).

 interestingly, they actually did fight when islam was first introduced.  these

things are only small, but they bother me, because i think the authors are not

telling the whole story.  They do not refer to the way same sex relationships

are addressed, nor the methods of conflict resolution.  they make no mention of

the disciplinary measures of those societies.  people are predators.  i don't

think these descriptions really explain examples of matriarchies well.  

actually,  i think we are only beginning to overide natural predator behaviour

because basic needs are so easily met now.  roll on socialism.

>

>Message: 3

>   Date: 09 Aug 2003 02:33:09 -0700

>  

>Subject: Re: Multi-rant

>

>

>

>> Equality is false as it is taken to mean something different to what

>> the word actually means. As most people have been arguing in the

>> previous posts, it is now taken to mean in a nutshell " theres no

>> difference3 beetween men and women "

>

>No, we're just saying men and women have more overlap within a wide

>range of (heterogenous) possibilities than you think.  Of course there

>are differences.  You act like more exist than really do.  And you're

>strawmanning all over the place.

>

>

>

>--

> " Disability inspiration is a form of propaganda that glosses over

>oppression while simultaneously reassuring normals about the superiority

>of their ways. " - B.

>

>

>

>Subject: Re: Multi-rant- Gareth, feminism and the patriarch

>

>

>> > Ill leave the rest of your post, because you were

>> > expressing an

>> > opinion, without having a go at me. This is fine by

>> > me. Above,

>> > however, you seem to imply that i am so wrong, so as

>> > not to

>> > neccessitate a response. Well, for one, have you

>> > ever though that he

>> > might actually like being called a nigger?

>>

>> --------I think I'll join your brand of thinking, and

>> start calling you an Asshole --- is that okay?

>>

>> Ah, Gareth,  

>>

>> You are under the Patriarchal illusion.  Being a stanch, strong

>feminist myself (not the fun kind!), I am unmoved by your

>misogynistic, hatelful, racist rants and see through it all to what

>the real issue is and who you really are.  You are overflowing with

>hate, but you must mostly hate yourself.  Your extremely limited view

>of masculinity does not allow you to exprience full humanity.  You

>must be afraid and very insecure.

>>

>> And I feel sorry for you.  No self- respecting woman would accept

>the sort of logic you throw out.

>>

>> The patriarch originated 10,000 years ago or so, as agriculture

>came into being and hunting waned off.  Some small, fearful and

>insecure men were terrified that they would cease to exist, and

>wondered what they were good for- they could not give birth, hunting

>was less important, now what?!  They were jealous and terrified of

>women's ability to give life.  Instead of seeing how they could

>contribute to life, and as equals, they made up thier own club- " the

>boys hunting club " and decided they had to define themselves as anti-

>woman. They chose to define themselves as " unwoman " or non-birth or

>non-nurturing, and took the opposite of all those things.   So they

>then called themselves " men " and defined " manhood " , thinking that was

>the only way they could exist.

>>

>> Everything that involved rearing a child and giving birth, as THEY

>saw it - was only " woman " .  The opposite of that then is " man " .  

>Since nurtuing, creation, emotion, etc. is involved in child rearing,

>they said men are un-nurturing, destructive, unemotional, etc.  Of

>course, they decided that men were better than women, since they were

>in fact fearful and insecure and were desperately compensating for

>thier feelings of smallness.  

>>

>> In fact, women became not even human in thier eyes, were objects to

>be used by them since they thought were " better " , in fact they

>thought they were gods.  Interesting, how Goddesses started to be

>replaced by gods, around the time of the rise of the patriarch.

>>

>> So, simply having a peins is not enough in the good ol' boys club.  

>Driven by an insane fear that is totally unbased, males had to prove

>they were " men " or they were not accepted as men, and were treated

>like " women " -abused, slaves and servents to men- " penetrated " .  Less

>than animals.

>>

>> The Patriarchal sceme goes like this: To prove " manhood " requires a

>series of harder and more ridiculous trials, until one " top man " is

>found out of all the men, and he becomes thier leader.   " Initiation "

>into " manhood " is done at puberty, and noted by brutality, much like

>the hazing that frat boys do to eachother.  A " man " can tough it

>out.  If a boy cries or shows any weakness, he is treated like

>a " girl " and either ostrisized or put at the bottom of the pecking

>order.  Initiation is a sort of " birth through the male " - the only

>way a " man " can give " life " , and when a male is accepted into the

>club he becomes human in thier eyes.

>>

>> Also, a very important gateway into the boys club involves

>intercourse.  Not " making love " - it is about controling a woman and  

>hurting her in some fashion through a sexual relationship, to prove

>he is in control of woman- and all that is " female " .  Most of the

>time it involves deception- not careing about a woman and saying you

>do.  Cheating and degrading woman is important to prove you are

>a " man " - according to the patriarchal rules.   When a boy has

>intercouse, and " survives " with his " manhood " intact, ie, in control,

>and remains uncaring or at least unattached, he has proven to himself

>and his buddies that he is indeed a " man " and is accepted into the

>club.

>>

>> All that is " female " is then degraded, less than human, destroyed,

>excluded.

>>

>> It goes to the extreme of excluding/ (and controlling) all that

>is " female " - banishing it- because they are terrified that if it

>gets " too close " to them (ie, they actually realize she IS human and

>start to care, or even have a feeling other than anger), they may

>become " women " and cease to be human- or be " men " .

>>

>> An example is the Taliban-  those rotten, worthless SOB's are so

>hateful and fearful of the " female " that a woman must cover all parts

>of her body or be severly beaten.  Women are not allowed to do

>ANYTHING- hold a job, GO OUT without a male presence, or even laugh!  

>>

>> Since the entire patriarch is founded in fear and an illusion

>of " manhood " , this fallecy must be proven over and over and over.  

>The " top dog " is challenged over and over.  Patriarchal systems are

>marked by hierarchy, destruction and deception- and anti-feminine

>themes.  The patriarch is not concerned about life or human survival-

>it is concerend about being the top man, the top of everything

>sparing no cost.

>>

>> The result is this evil and rotten patriarchal society we live in.

>The govenment, corporate america, etc. are all based on patriarchal

>themes. The Patriarch is the root of all evil- in my opinion. It's

>all about who's better than, who's getting ahead, who's gonna have

>all the power. They don't care who they hurt in the process- they

>don't even care for thier own survival in the long- run.  If they can

>be the top dog, that's it.  It's very destructive and disgusting- and

>unnatural.

>>

>> Did you ever notice that the more " macho " a culture is, the more

>messed up it is- the more violence, illness, and problems they have?  

>Do you ever wonder why screwing over someone is so common- even

>preferred?  Everyone wants to be at the top, instead of trying to

>live as equals- as a human family, helping eachother instead of

>always trying to stab eachother in the back.

__________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Jane,

How does one pronounce those pronouns? Is the x pronounced like a " z " as in the

first x of Xerox?

Re: Multi-rant

>...Incidentally, what is the meaning of the

>term that has been used in reference to the fellow in charge of

>Autreat? Does that mean " other " or...?

Yes, it means " other. " Intersexual.

If I were at work, I could give you the URL for

xyr [non-gendered pronoun form for his/her] web

site.

Jane

[Guest guest]

> I remember being irritated when I was perseverating on role-playing games

> on my computer as a pre-teen and the newer games wouldn't let me have a

> character with the gender of " other " rather than " male " or " female. " I

> didn't want to be either gender! Incidentally, what is the meaning of the

> term that has been used in reference to the fellow in charge of

> Autreat? Does that mean " other " or...?

Yes.

Jim Sinclair is intersexed. While in many people this means having

physical characteristics of both male and female or somewhere in between

male and female, xe was born with characteristics of *neither* male

*nor* female. Xe uses the pronouns " xe, xyr, xem, xyrs, " if I recall

correctly (equivalent to " she/he, her/his, her/him, hers/his " ).

This is discussed at the bottom of xyr website:

http://www.jimsinclair.org/

where there is a whole section on intersexuality. I also think xyr

website should be on your list of good introductory autism-positive

sites.

--

" Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss

on your computer. " -Bruce Graham

[Guest guest]

> The " gender norms " are a law given to us by the patriarch. Since they

> are so obsessed that women and men MUST be different ( or the men

> would be women), these stupid rules govern society. Women are forced

> to get rail thin (female invisibility to make fearful men more

> comfortable)

Then the patriarch must be a really recent invention, because standards

for female beauty are different across cultures and have changed toward

" rail-thin " very recently (within the lifetime of some of the people on

this mailing list, I'll bet).

> A lot of traditional female dress, attitude, etc. is imposed upon

> women as a badge of servitude. Example: Skirts:

> Did you know that in ancent times women wore skirts to keep them from

> running away from thier men?

In ancient times *men* wore skirts.

> Female submissiveness is intoduced long before purberty - " be a good

> girl " , " girls are ment to be seen and not heard " . Little girls are

> punished more often and much more severely for similar offenses than

> boys are in elemenary school. Boys are told they need to be winners,

> and girls are told they need to be sweet, pleasant, submissive,

> " feminine " . ICK!!!

Boys are also systematically trained out of showing their feelings,

looking " effeminate, " being anything other than super-macho.

> My androgeny can be confusing to NTs and it's fun. One day I was

> renting a room from a friend and helping her with repairs to the house

> ( I 'm a fair handywoman). I went into the kitchen in a pink lacy

> thing, and said " I need to charge my Makita " in my usual deep, blunt

> tone, holding my drill. My friend laughed hysterically. It wasn't at

> me- that's for sure. She thought it was unique and funny- dressed so

> feminine acting so male!

That's what my mom's like, sort of. She upholds a lot of the female

codes for dress and behavior, but few to none of the ones for things

like that kind of role. So she'll be running around in feminine

clothing acting generally feminine and swinging an ax or lugging a

chainsaw around. (Unfortunately, she's had very little power tool

safety instruction until I *insisted* she ask for some after she sliced

her little finger nearly in half trying to catch a chainsaw she'd

dropped after carrying it up a *ladder* to use it to cut something that

didn't need a chainsaw anyway. So she'd better have had some by now,

because I know she's back to work on the house. And I'm betting a lot

of the reason nobody bothered to teach her safety is because she's

female and nobody expected her to be using these tools. It's why they

wouldn't let her train as an architect, too.)

--

" In loyalty to their kind, they cannot tolerate our minds. In loyalty to

our kind, we cannot tolerate their obstruction. " -Jefferson Airplane

[Guest guest]

Sorry Clay didn't know you were that old :-)

Jesus was a Carpenters Son.

Steve

[Guest guest]

> How does one pronounce those pronouns? Is the x pronounced like a " z "

> as in the first x of Xerox?

Yes.

X is pronounced like Z.

Xe rhymes with he.

Xyr rhymes with her.

Xem rhymes with them.

--

A revolving concretion of earthy or mineral matter accumulates no

congeries of small, green bryophytic plant.

[Guest guest]

>...Incidentally, what is the meaning of the

>term that has been used in reference to the fellow in charge of

>Autreat? Does that mean " other " or...?

Yes, it means " other. " Intersexual.

If I were at work, I could give you the URL for

xyr [non-gendered pronoun form for his/her] web

site.

Jane

[Guest guest]

> Sorry Clay didn't know you were that old :-)

>

> Jesus was a Carpenters Son.

>

> Steve

The word over here is that he was a carpenter.

Why not look it up? Get some facts.

Clay

[Guest guest]

On Saturday, August 9, 2003 16:16 -0700 Jeanette

wrote:

> Unfortunately, she's had very little power tool

> safety instruction until I *insisted* she ask for some after she sliced

> her little finger nearly in half trying to catch a chainsaw she'd

> dropped after carrying it up a *ladder* to use it to cut something that

> didn't need a chainsaw anyway.

aaack! I hope she wasn't hurt too badly.

This suggests more than a lack of safety instruction. What you described

is so obviously dangerous that it would suggest either an overall lack of

appreciation of her own mortality or a reckless disregard for it.

> So she'd better have had some by now,

> because I know she's back to work on the house. And I'm betting a lot

> of the reason nobody bothered to teach her safety is because she's

> female and nobody expected her to be using these tools. It's why they

> wouldn't let her train as an architect, too.)

It goes both ways.

They don't teach guys how to cook or sew.

What's up with that?

I knew that was bogus back when I was in school I took " shop " with the

rest of the boys and the girls all got " home ec " .

I wanted to take both, because I knew I'd need both sets of skills,

but that wasn't an option.

Ride the Music

AndyTiedye

[Guest guest]

AndyTiedye wrote:

> It goes both ways. They don't teach guys how to cook or sew.

When I was in the 7th grade, all boys took cooking and sewing with all

the girls, and all girls take wood shop and drafting with the boys.

[Guest guest]

Andytiedye wrote:

It goes both ways.

They don't teach guys how to cook or sew.

What's up with that?

Actually, it DOESN'T go both ways. My uncle learned how to sew by taking a

sewing class at one of those material stores. He told me the women encouraged

him, supported him, helped him out. Also, did you ever stop to think how many

chefs are male?

Men DISCOURAGE other men from taking these courses, saying sewing is " woman's

work " , or that guys that do that are " sissies " .

Your school probably didn't offer it because they figured no one would be

interested, and of course they want to keep social norms up.

I'm sure if you look around now, you'll be able to find a class somewhere.

Jeanette

[Guest guest]

Jeanette wrote:

>> The " gender norms " are a law given to us by the patriarch. Since they

>> are so obsessed that women and men MUST be different ( or the men

>> would be women), these stupid rules govern society. Women are forced

>> to get rail thin (female invisibility to make fearful men more

>> comfortable)

and responded:

>Then the patriarch must be a really recent invention, because standards

>for female beauty are different across cultures and have changed toward

> " rail-thin " very recently (within the lifetime of some of the people on

>this mailing list, I'll bet).

There's a theory that men-in-power (definitely a sub-set

of the gender as a whole) impose on " their women " whatever

appearance the time-period accepts as proof of wealth.

So, when s was painting, for example, a wealthy man's

wife would show his wealth by being " eseque " (what

today would be called fat). He could afford to buy her

lots of food and let her live a life of leisure rather

than hard work. Her size proclaimed his wealth to the

world.

These days, lower-class women are likely to be bigger

(because of the food available, mostly, which provides

more bulk than nutrition if it's cheap food affordable

by poor people), whereas rich women (rich men's wives)

can afford expensive diet foods and memberships in gyms

and hours spent on their bodies instead of work (in-

home or out).

Because " everyone " aspires to upper-class values, even

those who are not rich want " their women " to be thin

now, and women have taken on the value system, too.

Jane

[Guest guest]

> I have no idea whether any of the bear-making men took

> sewing or " Home Ec " at school. May depend on their age,

> more than anything else.

>

> Jane

When I was in 7th grade, '58/'59, one of the classes was

separated into 4 groups. We took a class in music for a

quarter of the year, then crafts, then home ec, then art.

The home ec part only covered sewing, when I could have

used some help learning to cook for myself.

Clay