Guest guest Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 > AndyTiedye wrote: > > > I'll take your word for it that you can't draw. [...] > > There are other forms of visual art. Have you ever tried tiedye? > > This is PRECISELY what I'm talking about, the " helpful " suggestions I > get from people. It doesn't interest me, and I'm no good at it. Since you say you are no good at it, that implies that you have tried it. I had to ask, because you had generalized from drawing to all forms of visual art. I made the same generalization at one time, and found out otherwise when I tried it, and realized that the things that prevented me from drawing well didn't apply to this. If I try and try and try to do something, and can't do it, I will give up eventually. But if I have to rope off that area as " don't go there " , I want rope off as small an area as possible, and I will come back to test the boundaries from time to time. If tiedyeing doesn't interest you then you can apply the same principle elsewhere. > I'll stick to creative writing. That works too. Ride the Music AndyTiedye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 > I'd get positive thinking books heaped on me -- and > the worst, the very worst -- cards of encouragement > with artwork done by those toe-painters or > mouth-painters (handicapped), with notes like " See? If > they can do it so can you! " Oh boy, does that piss me off. My boyfriend showed me a newspaper article about a paraplegic man who became the CEO of a big company. My boyfriend says, " See, he can do it, and he's a lot more disabled than you are! " I looked at him very seriously and said, " Does he have clinical depression, too? " My boyfriend said, " Uh, I don't think he does, no. " I said, " Does he have Asperger's Syndrome? " Again, " No. " And I said, " Then don't compare me to him. " My boyfriend got the message, and he doesn't do things like that anymore. Iris Iris Gray, Puff, Calli and Munchkin The man gave a shrug which indicated that, although the world did indeed have many problems, this was one of them that was not his. -- (Terry Pratchett, Soul Music) Personal website: http://victoria.tc.ca/~rainbow/ Toastmasters website: http://victoria.tc.ca/Community/Bb/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 Of course " can't " is a word. I can't sing opera. I can't run a four-minute mile. I can't flap my arms and fly out the window. There's a difference between being negative and merely being realistic. I also find it strange that often, the same people who tell me I can do anything I set my mind to are also the ones who tell me I should " accept my limitations " when I fail at something I like to do, like drawing. -----------Hoo boy, can I relate to this. One thing that used to bother and depress the hell out of me (pre -AS discovery) was when I tried to explain to people how it was impossible for me to market myself. I'd get positive thinking books heaped on me -- and the worst, the very worst -- cards of encouragement with artwork done by those toe-painters or mouth-painters (handicapped), with notes like " See? If they can do it so can you! " It wasn't encouraging at all -- it was totally depressing. Nanne ===== " Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " -- Seurat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 Welcome to my world. Physically disabled people get that--excuse me--*crap* all the time. Maudlin, motivational-speaker pap. The assumption is that if one person in a wheelchair can climb mountains and get a PhD in nuclear physics while raising six kids, *all* people in wheelchairs should be able to do it. I had a conversation with one gentleman at the mall who asked me why I didn't work. When I explained why, he gave me the typical " success story " of a man missing an arm who became a construction worker. When I pointed out that my disability was far worse than his, he said, " A handicap is a handicap. " Um, no...some are more severe than others. *I* couldn't do construction work, and I wouldn't go around suggesting every disabled person should attempt it. Aside from that, disabled people are individuals, just like the " normals. " We have differing intelligence and a wide range of talents. But there are certain individuals who like to put us all into the same group, as if we were cookie-cutter figures, every one the same. I apologize for this rant...this is one of those issues that touch a nerve. Oh boy, does that piss me off. My boyfriend showed me a newspaper article about a paraplegic man who became the CEO of a big company. My boyfriend says, " See, he can do it, and he's a lot more disabled than you are! " I looked at him very seriously and said, " Does he have clinical depression, too? " My boyfriend said, " Uh, I don't think he does, no. " I said, " Does he have Asperger's Syndrome? " Again, " No. " And I said, " Then don't compare me to him. " My boyfriend got the message, and he doesn't do things like that anymore. Iris Iris Gray, Puff, Calli and Munchkin The man gave a shrug which indicated that, although the world did indeed have many problems, this was one of them that was not his. -- (Terry Pratchett, Soul Music) Personal website: http://victoria.tc.ca/~rainbow/ Toastmasters website: http://victoria.tc.ca/Community/Bb/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 > Oh boy, does that piss me off. My boyfriend showed me a newspaper article > about a paraplegic man who became the CEO of a big company. My boyfriend > says, " See, he can do it, and he's a lot more disabled than you are! " I > looked at him very seriously and said, " Does he have clinical depression, > too? " My boyfriend said, " Uh, I don't think he does, no. " I said, " Does he > have Asperger's Syndrome? " Again, " No. " And I said, " Then don't compare me > to him. " Reminds me of a dialogue from the documentary film " When Broke His Head " by Golfus. (Between and his dad.) Went something like (in a conversation about being unable to find work): Dad: But you're not *that disabled*. : Dad, you're thinking wheelchairs again. My disability's in here. I got hit in the head. I have a brain injury. Dad: Yes, but you can't lean on that. : I'm not leaning on it, I'm talking to you about it. I went back and got a master's degree. I'm not *leaning* on it! Dad: Well you showed real determination in getting that master's degree, but then you fell in love with writing and I thought you should be doing something productive... (and so forth) There's nothing about being paraplegic in itself -- beyond prejudice and potentially architectural barriers and the like -- that would prevent someone from having the social and cognitive skills most CEOs have. As an autistic person, it would be *way* more difficult, given the amount of social skills and multitasking usually involved. Most paras are NT (and some a little too vocally proud of *not* having anything " mental " different about them). -- " We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question which divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct. " -Niels Bohr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 > I apologize for this rant...this is one of those issues that touch a > nerve. I don't think you have anything to apologize for. It is terribly frutstrating and annoying to have to deal with ignorant people like that. I love my boyfriend dearly, but he does not know what it is like to live for even one day with a body that has the limitations mine does or a brain that works the way mine does. Iris Iris Gray, Puff, Calli and Munchkin The man gave a shrug which indicated that, although the world did indeed have many problems, this was one of them that was not his. -- (Terry Pratchett, Soul Music) Personal website: http://victoria.tc.ca/~rainbow/ Toastmasters website: http://victoria.tc.ca/Community/Bb/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 AndyTiedye wrote: > I'll take your word for it that you can't draw. I can't draw either. > All those tiny, precise movements, during which the rest of the body > has to remain perfectly still. Arrrgh. > > There are other forms of visual art. I found that I am good with clay. When I had an obsession with frogs from the 8th to the 9th grade, I used to look at all of the frog pictures I could. One day in art class, I found myself with a lump of clay and no one to watch me. I was supposed to make some idiotic pot or something, but I made a frog. It was proportioned perfectly, and had all of the features a frog should have. I generated this 3-d frog from a 2-d photo of a frog I had seen before. I still have the clay frog... its face is broken off, but I still have the body. I often think of that example when I try to determine whether the " autistics are not creative " thing has any merit. I see lots of autistic types that do various forms of art, and I do not buy that our kind is not creative. However, in my case, my drawings and three-dimesional representations are more like illustrations than anything artful. They are more like snapshots from my mind than anything creative. That said, I have written fictional stories that were regarded as creative. A lot of my fiction is manufactured; I have to think about it more than I do when I write nonfiction (like what I am writing now). I am having difficulty explaining what I mean by that. Every lead character is me, and I cannot just " assume " things about the lead that do not exist presently with myself. If I am going to write about a helicopter pilot, I have to include how I became a helicopter pilot. If there is some trait about me that prevents me from being a helicopter pilot, I have to explain how I overcame that. This is true even if I rename the lead character to be someone else. I still have to make a concrete transition from me as I am now to the new lead character. I have written this all before, so my apologies to those of you that are tired of reading it. Now for the upshot to all of this repetition. Even so, when I did the Pitt evaluation study, I was reported to have " limited creativity. " I think this may be yet another example of my creativity being different than expected, and rather than them recognizing that creativity comes in more forms than they expect, they say I don't have much of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 Doug wrote: >> One example is visual art: drawing is *the* main art form >> taught in schools (at least it was where and when I went), >> and I was never any good at it. I get to be an adult and >> join things like the UU church, with its free and liberal mindset, >> and I say " I can't do visual art " . and Andy responded: >I'll take your word for it that you can't draw. I can't draw either. >All those tiny, precise movements, during which the rest of the body >has to remain perfectly still. Arrrgh. > >There are other forms of visual art. Have you ever tried tiedye? Also different times of life. Until I became interested in making bears (when I was in my late 40s), sewing was something I did badly and only when absolutely necessary. Usually to hem clothing. My hands did not seem at all well suited to sewing. In the beginning of the bear years, I was sure I'd never be able to do certain things well at all (embroider the nose, for example), and other aspects of bear-making were extremely frustrating for me. They made me feel clumsy and inept and helpless and stupid. But my interest was so strong that I went on with it anyway. I am never going to be a " bear artist " like those few people universally (in the bear world) recognized as the top, most creative makers of the most perfect bears. There are things about me that would keep me from joining that celestial chorus even if I spent the next 20 years doing nothing but honing my bear-making skills. But I certainly create bears who don't need to feel lowly in the company of the majority of well-made bears. And my bears outshine a great many bears made by people who do it for money (i.e., people who sell the bears they make). Most of all, the making of the bears gives me a great deal of pleasure and satisfaction (as do the bears themselves). It's my form of " therapy. " I guess what I'm saying is that I've discovered how satisfying it can be to devote one's self to an " art " for which one lacks natural aptitude and in which one is never going to be a " star. " Not disagreeing with any of the previous viewpoints in this thread, just adding another POV. Not only am I not able to draw, BTW, I'm totally unable to figure out how a pattern piece should be changed in order to produce the desired result in the finished bear. This drives me crazy sometimes! Jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 AndyTiedye wrote: > Since you say you are no good at it, that implies that you have tried > it. I had to ask, because you had generalized from drawing to all forms > of visual art. Actually, I had specified (or " specialized " ? what is the proper antonym of 'generalized'?) from visual art to drawing as an example. Hand-eye coordination isn't nearly so much my problem -- I simply don't possess the visual-art kind of creativity. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 At 06:24 PM 6/11/03 -0700, Iris M. Gray wrote: >Oh boy, does that piss me off. My boyfriend showed me a newspaper article >about a paraplegic man who became the CEO of a big company. My boyfriend >says, " See, he can do it, and he's a lot more disabled than you are! " I >looked at him very seriously and said, " Does he have clinical depression, >too? " My boyfriend said, " Uh, I don't think he does, no. " I said, " Does he >have Asperger's Syndrome? " Again, " No. " And I said, " Then don't compare me >to him. " One of the big differences between visible disabilities, like paraplegia or spina bifida, and invisible disabilities, like depression and Asperger's, is that there will always be many people practically falling all over themselves to give opportunities to the visibly disabled. Visibly disabled people are more " inspirational " because their disability is out there for everyone to clearly see, every moment. People feel good about helping the visibly disabled. People often don't even recognize the invisibly disabled and when it is pointed out to them, they don't understand it, so it doesn't have that " inspirational, feel-good " factor to it. Because the average person can't look at an aspie and see the disability, we aren't as " inspiring " and people don't want to rush up and help us with life the way they often do with the visibly disabled. While the paraplegic CEO was undoubtedly a bright man with talent, chances are that he was ushered into the job, especially if he was working during the 1980s and early 1990s when large companies were heavily competing with each other to hire visibly disabled people for upper-management positions. Sometimes I wish my disabilities were visible so that I could have people competing to help me and sometimes I'm glad my disabilities are invisible because I know that anything I've accomplished was due to my own effort, not due to people trying to give me everything so they could feel " inspired " and warm inside. Sparrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 At 08:45 PM 6/11/03 -0500, Newstead wrote: >Welcome to my world. Physically disabled people get that--excuse me--*crap* all the time. Maudlin, motivational-speaker pap. The assumption is that if one person in a wheelchair can climb mountains and get a PhD in nuclear physics while raising six kids, *all* people in wheelchairs should be able to do it. I had a conversation with one gentleman at the mall who asked me why I didn't work. When I explained why, he gave me the typical " success story " of a man missing an arm who became a construction worker. When I pointed out that my disability was far worse than his, he said, " A handicap is a handicap. " Um, no...some are more severe than others. *I* couldn't do construction work, and I wouldn't go around suggesting every disabled person should attempt it. > >Aside from that, disabled people are individuals, just like the " normals. " We have differing intelligence and a wide range of talents. But there are certain individuals who like to put us all into the same group, as if we were cookie-cutter figures, every one the same. > >I apologize for this rant...this is one of those issues that touch a nerve. You're in the awkward position of having *both* a visible and an invisible disability. So people probably look at you and judge you as " person in wheelchair " and don't see or maybe even refuse to see anything else. My guess (and I'm just guessing here. Feel free to yell at me if I'm totally off the mark) is that you get the " let's fall all over ourselves to help the " inspirational " person in the wheelchair " stuff I was talking about in an earlier post but then when your invisible disability gets in the way of your being able to take advantage of that help and the people aren't giving you the kind of help you really need, you get branded as the " ungrateful, lazy person in the wheelchair. " Does it go that way or am I way, way off base? The last time I tried to work, I watched people fall all over themselves to give everything under the sun to a blind woman who (without the help) did the job better than any of the sighted people. She didn't need any help, but people were competing to see who could be the one to do the most for her. Meanwhile, I was floundering and could have seriously used some help but all I got was yelled at. :-( Sparrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 > Sometimes I wish my disabilities were visible so that I could have > people competing to help me and sometimes I'm glad my disabilities are > invisible because I know that anything I've accomplished was due to my > own effort, not due to people trying to give me everything so they could > feel " inspired " and warm inside. I not only have invisible mental disabilities (AS and depression) but physical ones as well (diabetes, asthma, fibromyalgia). A few months ago I injured myself and had to walk with a cane. Sometimes I think I should walk with the cane even if I don't need it anymore, just so that I " look " disabled. Iris Iris Gray, Puff, Calli and Munchkin The man gave a shrug which indicated that, although the world did indeed have many problems, this was one of them that was not his. -- (Terry Pratchett, Soul Music) Personal website: http://victoria.tc.ca/~rainbow/ Toastmasters website: http://victoria.tc.ca/Community/Bb/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 Sparrow danced around singing: >Sometimes I wish my disabilities were visible so that I could have people >competing to help me and sometimes I'm glad my disabilities are invisible >because I know that anything I've accomplished was due to my own effort, >not due to people trying to give me everything so they could feel > " inspired " and warm inside. Because of the nature of my disabilities, I've spent my life on both sides of the fence, and believe me, the grass isn't green on either side! On the one hand are people that aren't told about my organ defects, and make unkind comments about how I'm just being lazy, whiny, or the many other things said to people with invisible disabilities. On the other hand are the ones that *do* find out about my physical issues and then tell me that I'm an inspiration. I haven't had any cases, in 26 years, of people trying to give me things -- I think that's a bit of a myth about the physically disabled, from everything I have seen. In fact, everyone assumes that everyone else is doing the giving, so the result is a lot of people being very hard on the " disabled kid " (as even adult disabled people of all kinds are regarded as children) to make sure we're " independent. " So not only do we get to struggle with whatever handicap we have, we're taught from day one that it's a huge sign of weakness to accept *any* help, which means that we wind up going it alone at times when even the most vehemently independent able-bodied NT would casually ask a friend for a hand. The closest I have come is when a campus has removed the societal assumptions that cause me to be judged based on my body rather than my knowledge or intellect. For example, many courses require a discussion section, and participation/attendance is mandatory. Without accommodation for my disabilities, I'd simply fail and that's all there is to it, because even though I have the knowledge, I am often too sick to be on campus. So what the schools have done is allow for me to do my " part " in discussion by bringing it online -- inviting my fellow students to a YahooGroup and tackling the subject matter where the TA or prof can watch. I'm still doing my part, demonstrating I have the knowledge, but it's in a way that doesn't discriminate against my body's willingness to do what my mind wants. When people call me an " inspiration " after finding out the truth about my body, though, they always mean that I have struggled to change my life from something comfortable and disability-friendly into something able-bodied-NT style. Nobody calls me an " inspiration " for being open about my problems, for seeking out ways to help others take pride in who they are... They only find me " inspirational " when I pretend to be normal -- because they can't fathom the idea of improvement being in any other direction except towards them. I used to have the " it's bad to let anyone give me special treatment " attitude very strongly. It finally dawned on me, one day as I was slogging around campus in the rain with bronchitis to turn a paper in on time, that the grades I was getting weren't accurate. For every time I had an " A " worth of knowledge on a course subject, my being too tired to think straight from the stress of my efforts to always show up, always do things on time, always appear normal, gave me a " C " instead. Even when I was getting " A " grades, it was the result of a combination of effort & knowledge that deserved a grade off the charts. As soon as I said nuts to the supercrip act and was granted the ability to rest at home, do discussions online, and have extensions on due-dates so I could write when I was clear-headed (as opposed to " while half-conscious from meds or illness " ), my grades went through the roof -- I started getting " A " grades on my work with very little effort. So at this point, while I still reject " help " in all but the most important cases, I see nothing wrong with accommodations that let me show what my *brain* is capable of, rather than what brain + body can do. If I were doing something that was physically-related, sure, then I'd understand; but in academics and similar activities where the mind is paramount, bugger me if I'm going to let someone punish me because my *body* isn't perfect or because my mind functions differently (just as well, perhaps even better, just different)... DeGraf ~*~ http://sonic.net/mustang/moggy For an autistic, being an 'inspiration' thus far means: " Good for you, you've learned to extinguish your personality for my comfort! " -- me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 On the other hand are > the ones that *do* find out about my physical issues and then tell me that > I'm an inspiration. When I was a kid I always got told I was " brave " for living with diabetes. My reaction to that was always " Like I have some sort of choice? " I mean, what, I could be cowardly and choose not to have it, or brave and choose to have it? Of course, then there were the people who said, " I could never do what you do! I could never take shots every day! " To which my response would also be, " I have a choice? " Gee, I'm too scared to take shots every day, so I guess I just won't take them. Iris Iris Gray, Puff, Calli and Munchkin The man gave a shrug which indicated that, although the world did indeed have many problems, this was one of them that was not his. -- (Terry Pratchett, Soul Music) Personal website: http://victoria.tc.ca/~rainbow/ Toastmasters website: http://victoria.tc.ca/Community/Bb/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 Actually, you couldn't be more *on* base. That's almost a word-for-word quote of the kind of comment I've gotten from able-bodied people over the years. I worked for civil service once. It was enough to convince me I was not cut out for office work, or indeed, any work outside the home. I'm in a double bind. If I hold a job, I end up making next to nothing, losing my benefits, and suffering a nervous breakdown. If I don't work, I'm labeled " lazy. " When I was a client of Voc Rehab in the eighties, they paid for my first two years of college. When I switched my major from something I couldn't handle (TV Production) to something I could (Spanish and Fine Arts) the funding went bye-bye and I had to get a Pell. It occurred to me they really didn't do much to help the disabled. I noticed that most of their disabled former clients ended up becoming--you guessed it--Voc Rehab counselors. They would have preferred I go into teaching, something for which I couldn't be more temperamentally unsuited. I should know, I did it briefly in the nineties. I find it ironic that Voc Rehab will help me get the stereotypical " cripple jobs " I *can't* handle (like data entry). But when I attempt to establish myself in a field in which I have talent, that runs contrary to stereotype--like cartooning and/or commercial art--I'm told I should " be realistic " and " accept my limitations. " My guess (and I'm just guessing here. Feel free to yell at me if I'm totally off the mark) is that you get the " let's fall all over ourselves to help the " inspirational " person in the wheelchair " stuff I was talking about in an earlier post but then when your invisible disability gets in the way of your being able to take advantage of that help and the people aren't giving you the kind of help you really need, you get branded as the " ungrateful, lazy person in the wheelchair. " Does it go that way or am I way, way off base? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 Thank you! I wish I'd said that! Older physically disabled people, like me, have been given relatively little. I went to a regular school with able-bodied kids long before " mainstreaming " and " inclusion " were fashionable. I had to beg and my parents had to threaten before I received even the smallest accomodation. Even in high school in the seventies, my parents nearly had to take the school district to court to get the school to build a simple little wooden ramp to one of my classes. The attitude was, " If you can't handle the demands of this school, you shouldn't be here... " Not that I had a choice--there typically weren't any special schools in the immediate area. I had to be educated at a regular school or not at all. When I asked to leave classes five minutes early in junior high so I could get to my next class on time, I was scolded by teachers and sneered at by other students for asking for " special privileges. " Every job I ever held I got on my own--Voc Rehab never helped me get a single one. They *did* help with college for two years, but that's all. But even that, and the Pell grant I got later, weren't " given " to me. I did, after all, have to maintain the grades to keep receiving the aid. And as I and others have already mentioned, I had invisible disabilities (which at the time I didn't even know existed) on top of the visible ones, which made things all the harder. As if things weren't bad enough, I had to put up with the teasing and constant harrassment from other students. Given what I've had to go through in my life, I consider the little disability check I receive now to be compensation of a sort. I haven't had any cases, in 26 years, of people trying to give me things -- I think that's a bit of a myth about the physically disabled, from everything I have seen. In fact, everyone assumes that everyone else is doing the giving, so the result is a lot of people being very hard on the " disabled kid " (as even adult disabled people of all kinds are regarded as children) to make sure we're " independent. " So not only do we get to struggle with whatever handicap we have, we're taught from day one that it's a huge sign of weakness to accept *any* help, which means that we wind up going it alone at times when even the most vehemently independent able-bodied NT would casually ask a friend for a hand. The closest I have come is when a campus has removed the societal assumptions that cause me to be judged based on my body rather than my knowledge or intellect. For example, many courses require a discussion section, and participation/attendance is mandatory. Without accommodation for my disabilities, I'd simply fail and that's all there is to it, because even though I have the knowledge, I am often too sick to be on campus. So what the schools have done is allow for me to do my " part " in discussion by bringing it online -- inviting my fellow students to a YahooGroup and tackling the subject matter where the TA or prof can watch. I'm still doing my part, demonstrating I have the knowledge, but it's in a way that doesn't discriminate against my body's willingness to do what my mind wants. When people call me an " inspiration " after finding out the truth about my body, though, they always mean that I have struggled to change my life from something comfortable and disability-friendly into something able-bodied-NT style. Nobody calls me an " inspiration " for being open about my problems, for seeking out ways to help others take pride in who they are... They only find me " inspirational " when I pretend to be normal -- because they can't fathom the idea of improvement being in any other direction except towards them. I used to have the " it's bad to let anyone give me special treatment " attitude very strongly. It finally dawned on me, one day as I was slogging around campus in the rain with bronchitis to turn a paper in on time, that the grades I was getting weren't accurate. For every time I had an " A " worth of knowledge on a course subject, my being too tired to think straight from the stress of my efforts to always show up, always do things on time, always appear normal, gave me a " C " instead. Even when I was getting " A " grades, it was the result of a combination of effort & knowledge that deserved a grade off the charts. As soon as I said nuts to the supercrip act and was granted the ability to rest at home, do discussions online, and have extensions on due-dates so I could write when I was clear-headed (as opposed to " while half-conscious from meds or illness " ), my grades went through the roof -- I started getting " A " grades on my work with very little effort. So at this point, while I still reject " help " in all but the most important cases, I see nothing wrong with accommodations that let me show what my *brain* is capable of, rather than what brain + body can do. If I were doing something that was physically-related, sure, then I'd understand; but in academics and similar activities where the mind is paramount, bugger me if I'm going to let someone punish me because my *body* isn't perfect or because my mind functions differently (just as well, perhaps even better, just different)... DeGraf ~*~ http://sonic.net/mustang/moggy For an autistic, being an 'inspiration' thus far means: " Good for you, you've learned to extinguish your personality for my comfort! " -- me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 I used to encounter people who would break into tears--tears!--when they saw me, gushing about how " brave " I was. My response was pretty much the same as yours: " I have a choice?? " Re: Can't (Re: graduated) On the other hand are > the ones that *do* find out about my physical issues and then tell me that > I'm an inspiration. When I was a kid I always got told I was " brave " for living with diabetes. My reaction to that was always " Like I have some sort of choice? " I mean, what, I could be cowardly and choose not to have it, or brave and choose to have it? Of course, then there were the people who said, " I could never do what you do! I could never take shots every day! " To which my response would also be, " I have a choice? " Gee, I'm too scared to take shots every day, so I guess I just won't take them. Iris Iris Gray, Puff, Calli and Munchkin The man gave a shrug which indicated that, although the world did indeed have many problems, this was one of them that was not his. -- (Terry Pratchett, Soul Music) Personal website: http://victoria.tc.ca/~rainbow/ Toastmasters website: http://victoria.tc.ca/Community/Bb/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 Iris M. Gray danced around singing: >When I was a kid I always got told I was " brave " for living with diabetes. >My reaction to that was always " Like I have some sort of choice? " I mean, >what, I could be cowardly and choose not to have it, or brave and choose >to have it? Yes, exactly! People would tell me I was " brave " for having so many operations. I thought they were all nuts -- did they think I had a choice? My parents loaded me in the car, drove me to the hospital, it's not like I could *escape* at that point (trust me, I tried) and even if I could, the only alternative was death... Last year when I had the catheter added to my bowel so I could wash it out with water, someone told me I was " brave " for having it done, and my reply was pretty much " it doesn't take much bravery to prefer a 45 minute procedure you can't feel over spending 18 hours a day on the toilet for the rest of your life. " I still don't know what that definition of " brave " is supposed to mean. Unless it means (this would not surprise me) that they feel the idea of being abnormal is so horrifying that they'd rather kill themselves than go through with it. In which case I'm insulted and think that I'm not brave so much as they're horrifyingly prejudiced. DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 > One of the big differences between visible disabilities, like paraplegia or > spina bifida, and invisible disabilities, like depression and Asperger's, > is that there will always be many people practically falling all over > themselves to give opportunities to the visibly disabled. Visibly disabled > people are more " inspirational " because their disability is out there for > everyone to clearly see, every moment. People feel good about helping the > visibly disabled. I think that's a myth. First of all, as someone once told me, what people consider visible and what they consider invisible changes so much depending on context that they're a little on the meaningless side as intrinsic things to a particular disability. (They have more to do with what people know how to perceive -- autism is very visible to some people, and invisible to others, even if the autistic person doesn't change whatsoever. Other things seem " visible " if the person's in a wheelchair and " invisible " if they're not.) Second, they don't really want to help and what they call " inspiration " is empty and hollow. It *looks* like praise, but it's really the opposite. Someone doesn't even know you and they compliment you on something you've never done, while pushing your wheelchair (over your protests that you can do it yourself) in the wrong direction while patting you on the head (and if you jump at that, they *giggle*). And they think they've just done a good deed -- that's all they actually care about, is chalking up some kind of points for doing something " good " for someone, whether the person wants it or needs it or not. I think a lot of people who are surrounded by people who can't see what is going on with them (which somehow gets blamed on " invisible disability " ) envy people whose disabilities are recognized by those around them, with a very false knowledge of what it's like. I think the opposite is true as well -- people who are sick of people's reactions to their disability quite often think it would be easier if nobody knew about it, even though it wouldn't. I've even seen articles by people in the disability rights movement who don't believe " invisibly disabled " people should be allowed to take part in the movement, because they supposedly don't face disability oppression. Neither one of these impressions has much to do with how reality works for the other side. Both sides mistakenly believe that on the other side they would be, in some way or another, appreciated more for who they are as a full human being. And it really doesn't happen. -- " That's an egg? They should put a label on it! " -Naomi Kubota, on cafeteria food Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 wrote: > I've even > seen articles by people in the disability rights movement who don't > believe " invisibly disabled " people should be allowed to take part in > the movement, because they supposedly don't face disability > oppression. Amazing. In terms of autistic rights and advocacy, I personally welcome ANYONE that has the right attitude, whether they be obviously autistic or the most social and gregarious NT, or somewhere in between (like me). To me, it is about the change of societal attitudes, and that is going to take NT involvement-- since they are the ones whose attitudes need change the most, as a group. It's idiotic to be exclusive when you're part of a movement to change societal attitudes. Are they trying to make a difference, or have a fun little club with " :No normals allowed " sign on the clubhouse door? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 --- Newstead wrote: > Actually, you couldn't be more *on* base. That's > almost a word-for-word quote of the kind of comment > I've gotten from able-bodied people over the years. > > I worked for civil service once. It was enough to > convince me I was not cut out for office work, or > indeed, any work outside the home. I'm in a double > bind. If I hold a job, I end up making next to > nothing, losing my benefits, and suffering a nervous > breakdown. If I don't work, I'm labeled " lazy. " > > When I was a client of Voc Rehab in the eighties, > they paid for my first two years of college. When I > switched my major from something I couldn't handle > (TV Production) to something I could (Spanish and > Fine Arts) the funding went bye-bye and I had to get > a Pell. > > It occurred to me they really didn't do much to help > the disabled. I noticed that most of their disabled > former clients ended up becoming--you guessed > it--Voc Rehab counselors. They would have preferred > I go into teaching, something for which I couldn't > be more temperamentally unsuited. I should know, I > did it briefly in the nineties. > > I find it ironic that Voc Rehab will help me get the > stereotypical " cripple jobs " I *can't* handle (like > data entry). But when I attempt to establish myself > in a field in which I have talent, that runs > contrary to stereotype--like cartooning and/or > commercial art--I'm told I should " be realistic " and > " accept my limitations. " > -----------I had a similar experience with VocRehab in '98 or so...it's quite aggravating. Nanne ===== " Let's go get drunk on light again---it has the power to console. " -- Seurat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 > > >I'm careful about wearable art that also makes or implies political >statements because it can just as easily be a barrier between people as a >bridge. An example is the reaction many people had on a live journal >community when someone posted a photo of a woman wearing a t-shirt that >said " Keep off the grass " with a picture of a marijuana leaf with a circle >around it and a line drawn across it. People's reactions were immediate and >visceral and, for the most part, quite uncomplimentary. The woman looked >like a nice woman, possibly an enjoyable woman to be around, but she was >instantly and harshly judged for the message of her clothing. >Sparrow > > I often wear tye-dye because I like the bright colors. In don't wear clothing with slogans, political statements, or corporate names on them. You said that you had problems before with prople who were wearing tye-dye. What kind of problems? I think that I could relate. Some of these people can be very opinionated, and insulting towards anyone who does not agree with them. They often act just as bad as the " establishment " that they are railing against. They're not all like this, just a few fanatics that ruin things for everyone else. Speaking of wearable art, I used to make clothes with leather. I sold a few things, but I mostly did it for the creative effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 > > >There's nothing about being paraplegic in itself -- beyond prejudice and >potentially architectural barriers and the like -- that would prevent >someone from having the social and cognitive skills most CEOs have. As >an autistic person, it would be *way* more difficult, given the amount >of social skills and multitasking usually involved. Most paras are NT >(and some a little too vocally proud of *not* having anything " mental " >different about them). > > > Remember too, that someone in a wheelchair can paly the " sympathy card " . It is possible that they get more opportunities handed to them because people feel sorry for them and think that they should be given special attention because of their misfortune. Then, there is the whole " political correctness " thing. People with autism and AS though, seem to be viewed as an annoyance, and a challenge to the status quo. The big difference here is not the level of disability, but society's attitude towards those disabilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 > > >Even so, when I did the Pitt evaluation study, I was reported to have > " limited creativity. " I think this may be yet another example of my >creativity being different than expected, and rather than them >recognizing that creativity comes in more forms than they expect, they >say I don't have much of it. > > > I am a very creative person, but I have had similar judgments that I am not " creative " . I have learned that " creativity " is judged too much by NT standards. For years, my creative work was put down with statements like " does not mkae a statement " or " does not address the human condition " . This is a lot of NT crap! They are not seeing what they want to see, so therefore, the work is crap. F- them! Do what you like, and be your own critic. You know what you want to see; judge yourself on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2003 Report Share Posted June 12, 2003 > > >The last time I tried to work, I watched people fall all over themselves to >give everything under the sun to a blind woman who (without the help) did >the job better than any of the sighted people. She didn't need any help, >but people were competing to see who could be the one to do the most for >her. Meanwhile, I was floundering and could have seriously used some help >but all I got was yelled at. :-( >Sparrow > > I know the feeling. Many years ago, when I was working, iw was often told that I was " lucky to even have a job " . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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